Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Eric lets the amoral cat out of the bag: “It may be ‘so what’ to you (and me) that morality is ultimately subjective . . .”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

It is instructive to see this inadvertently revealing comment on a blog post by Jason Rosenhouse.

But first, let’s remind ourselves of a very important visually made point:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .
Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

And now:

>>eric April 15, 2015

Of course, you can challenge my definition. You can say that it’s just a product of my own subjective judgment that it’s bad to harm sentient beings. But so what?

I have not read Arrington’s posts, but I would bet that he is exactly going after the subjective vs. objective distinction. There’s been a recent spate of philosophers and/or reasonably prominent atheists trying to propose an objective morality (without the need for a god). I would bet he is going after these ideas.

It may be “so what” to you (and me) that morality is ultimately subjective, but many people find that thought upsetting. Arrington is pushing on that discomfort to gain converts for theism. He’s proselytizing: design will give you laypeople back that foundation for objective morality you want so badly, so (this part is implied and rarely stated) therefore you should believe in design.>>

In short, we are right back to an indifferent shoulder-shrug to the longstanding (cf. Plato in The Laws Bk X, c 360 BC) implication of evolutionary materialism, that might and manipulation make ‘right.’ (So, it’s just a matter of who has more might and who is cleverer at manipulating the opinions — and, especially the emotions — of the sheeple who think that we are under objective moral government of OUGHT. Who actually imagine they have real unalienable rights, starting with life, liberty, conscience and the like.)

Which, should ring some very loud warning bells.

In answer to such cynicism, I draw to our attention, a warning and a hope at the foundation of modern liberty and democracy, as Locke cites Hooker in his 2nd treatise on Civil Government:

>>. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80]>>

And again, Jefferson et al as they built on that foundation in the US DoI 1776:

>>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness . . . >>

So, whose report do we believe — eric et al, or Locke, Hooker and Jefferson et al, why? And, where does this all point? END

Comments
SS, in 76 you asked for a clarification on the IS-OUGHT issue as I posed at 74, your first question and the pivotal one without which nothing further can be resolved; admittedly, you need now to say a right is R and it is or is not binding in the case of that murdered abused child because of X. I therefore took time to step by step provide same, starting with questions on generic and specific cases that would allow clarifying oughtness in the context of rights and duties; connecting also to the historically highly relevant context of the origin of modern liberty and democratic gov't, which pivoted on the duty of the state to acknowledge and protect the rights of the governed. Only, to see what looks a lot like a clever, subtly dismissive evasion, especially as the only way we may interact is by -- reading (so "reading assignments" is loaded mischaracterisation). So, I responded to your Q1, you dismiss it as a refusal to respond (but without this one clarified how do we go beyond?), and an excuse to be further unresponsive. That speaks sad volumes. I hope that you will reconsider. KF PS: Note your 76: >> [KF:] The question, in short, is whether we actually are under moral government of ought, … [SS:] This phrase is too vague for me to make sense of. Perhaps you could clarify? . . . >> Then, my 82: >>I put on the table two cases, one generic the other particular (and unfortunately very much real world and I believe unsolved to this day) but with broad import: 1: What is a “right,” and why should — ought — others be inclined to respect such? 2: Is it so, that we OUGHT not to kidnap, bind, gag, indecently sexually assault and kill a young child on its way from school in order to indulge one’s sexual pleasures and aggressive impulses? Why or why not? 3: More generally, what is the significance for modern liberty and democracy of the following expanded citation from Hooker made by Locke in his 2nd Treatise on Gov’t Ch 2 Sec 5, given onward concepts in the US DoI of 1776 and the onward US Constitution that sought to deliver on the freshly framed reformed govt envisioned in that DoI:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
4: What then could asking as to whether we are responsibly free, morally governed beings imply for law. government, the civil peace of justice, and for what grounds them at world-roots level? . . . >> PPS: Re 3 note my onward citation.kairosfocus
July 10, 2015
July
07
Jul
10
10
2015
06:41 AM
6
06
41
AM
PDT
kairosfocus; Your three responses disappoint. You do not respond to what I wrote but merely repost some of the questions I answered @76 with a couple of new ones. And you give me some reading assignments. You are not the Master; neither am I. I am not the student; neither are you. If my responses to you @76 are unworthy of a response, for what reason would I respond to you? sean s.sean samis
July 10, 2015
July
07
Jul
10
10
2015
06:12 AM
6
06
12
AM
PDT
SS: Based on this, perhaps we could revisit 74: https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/science-worldview-issues-and-society/eric-lets-the-amoral-cat-out-of-the-bag-it-may-be-so-what-to-you-and-me-that-morality-is-ultimately-subjective/#comment-571164
74 kairosfocus July 7, 2015 at 3:43 am SS: A starter on the IS-OUGHT gap in a nutshell (cf. here on in context and here in context). As a core first issue, is it patently wrong to kidnap, bind, sexually assault and kill a young child on its way home from school? Such a child has neither strength nor eloquence to enforce “might and manipulation make so-called right.” And, at some point, we are all in that position, or even more vulnerable, in the womb. (Also, sadly, this is not a hypothetical.) The question, in short, is whether we actually are under moral government of ought, or else whether our hearts, minds and consciences delude us on this matter. As, ever so many advocates of evolutionary materialism argue or imply. If the latter, we have let general delusion loose in our interior lives, and face self-referential absurdity and incoherence. (Indeed, an infinite regress of Plato’s cave delusional words; this is a case of how radical skepticism, whether global or arbitrarily selective, leads to self-refuting utter breakdown of rationality. Such is usually not obvious when one is on the rhetorical defensive but comes out as soon as it is realised that one’s implied worldview must also be grounded. Cf. discussion here on, part of context for the first linked. Hyperskepticism undermines rationality and undercuts itself through self-falsification.) We have every good reason to acknowledge that OUGHT is real and binding. But, how can such be grounded? Post Hume and his “surpriz’d” argument, only at world-foundation level. That is, at base/root level, there must be an IS that grounds OUGHT, an IS that is inherently moral and properly and adequately supports OUGHT . . .
KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2015
July
07
Jul
10
10
2015
05:10 AM
5
05
10
AM
PDT
SS: Allow me to cite from the 2nd paragraph of the US DoI 1776:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .
Also, the Dutch DoI of 1581, giving a key historical context:
. . . a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression and violence as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince, to obey his commands, whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects (without which he could be no prince), to govern them according to equity, to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock, and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them. And when he does not behave thus, but, on the contrary, oppresses them, seeking opportunities to infringe their ancient customs and privileges . . . then he is no longer a prince, but a tyrant, and the subjects are to consider him in no other view . . . This is the only method left for subjects whose humble petitions and remonstrances could never soften their prince or dissuade him from his tyrannical proceedings; and this is what the law of nature dictates for the defense of liberty, which we ought to transmit to posterity, even at the hazard of our lives. . . . . So, having no hope of reconciliation, and finding no other remedy, we have, agreeable to the law of nature in our own defense, and for maintaining the rights, privileges, and liberties of our countrymen, wives, and children, and latest posterity from being enslaved by the Spaniards, been constrained to renounce allegiance to the King of Spain, and pursue such methods as appear to us most likely to secure our ancient liberties and privileges.
Blackstone, in his Commentaries on the Laws of England 1765, is also relevant:
Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being . . . consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker's will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws . . . These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. [--> note the direct echo of Locke and Hooker] Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly [NB: cf. Exod. 20:15 - 16], should hurt nobody [NB: cf. Rom 13:8 - 10], and should render to every one his due [NB: cf. Rom 13:6 - 7 & Exod. 20:15]; to which three general precepts Justinian [1: a Juris praecepta sunt hace, honeste vivere. alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. Inst, 1. 1. 3] has reduced the whole doctrine of law [and, Corpus Juris, Justinian's Christianised precis and pruning of perhaps 1,000 years of Roman jurisprudence, in turn is the foundation of law for much of Europe].
Here, the 1828 Webster's Dictionary on liberty is illuminating:
Liberty LIB'ERTY, noun [Latin libertas, from liber, free.] 1. Freedom from restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or mind. The body is at liberty when not confined; the will or mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions. 2. Natural liberty consists in the power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature. It is a state of exemption from the control of others, and from positive laws and the institutions of social life. This liberty is abridged by the establishment of government. 3. Civil liberty is the liberty of men in a state of society, or natural liberty so far only abridged and restrained, as is necessary and expedient for the safety and interest of the society, state or nation. A restraint of natural liberty not necessary or expedient for the public, is tyranny or oppression. civil liberty is an exemption from the arbitrary will of others, which exemption is secured by established laws, which restrain every man from injuring or controlling another. Hence the restraints of law are essential to civil liberty The liberty of one depends not so much on the removal of all restraint from him, as on the due restraint upon the liberty of others. In this sentence, the latter word liberty denotes natural liberty 4. Political liberty is sometimes used as synonymous with civil liberty But it more properly designates the liberty of a nation, the freedom of a nation or state from all unjust abridgment of its rights and independence by another nation. Hence we often speak of the political liberties of Europe, or the nations of Europe. 5. Religious liberty is the free right of adopting and enjoying opinions on religious subjects, and of worshiping the Supreme Being according to the dictates of conscience, without external control. 6. liberty in metaphysics, as opposed to necessity, is the power of an agent to do or forbear any particular action, according to the determination or thought of the mind, by which either is preferred to the other. Freedom of the will; exemption from compulsion or restraint in willing or volition. 7. Privilege; exemption; immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant; with a plural. Thus we speak of the liberties of the commercial cities of Europe.
Similarly, the Congressional national call for solemn assembly and prayer that preceded the US DoI, May 1776 has somewhat to say:
May 1776 [over the name of John Hancock, first signer of the US Declaration of Independence] : In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.
Then, in such light, the 1778 articles of confederation and perpetual union:
And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union . . . . In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.
As well, the grand statement structure of the US Constitution, 1787:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I - VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].
That is, the whole context of the US Constitution is shaped by the framework of independence of the USA and it sets out to be a more successful delivery of reformed government as envisioned in that declaration, years since its assertion being acknowledged. It is further evident that the context is that of the reformation era, double covenant vision of nationhood under God and limited just government under God by the consent of the governed. A key marker of this is the covenantal, theological reference to the blessings of liberty that appears in the preamble of said instrument (which provides a brief context and rationale in such a document), as well as of course the echo of Rom 1:1 - 5 in the way dates are given. It is worth noting here the summary recently made by the Library of Congress of the US in presenting a display of founding era documents:
The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men . . . both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity . . . . Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people . . . The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."
I know, such a perspective and such sources are generally unfamiliar today, but I think some consideration will go a long way to resolving many confusions, misunderstandings and distortions that have developed and which have become entrenched. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2015
July
07
Jul
10
10
2015
04:22 AM
4
04
22
AM
PDT
SS: I put on the table two cases, one generic the other particular (and unfortunately very much real world and I believe unsolved to this day) but with broad import: 1: What is a "right," and why should -- ought -- others be inclined to respect such? 2: Is it so, that we OUGHT not to kidnap, bind, gag, indecently sexually assault and kill a young child on its way from school in order to indulge one's sexual pleasures and aggressive impulses? Why or why not? 3: More generally, what is the significance for modern liberty and democracy of the following expanded citation from Hooker made by Locke in his 2nd Treatise on Gov't Ch 2 Sec 5, given onward concepts in the US DoI of 1776 and the onward US Constitution that sought to deliver on the freshly framed reformed govt envisioned in that DoI:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
4: What then could asking as to whether we are responsibly free, morally governed beings imply for law. government, the civil peace of justice, and for what grounds them at world-roots level? 5: Given this from Plato:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them.
. . . what is liable to happen as our civilisation increasingly walks away from Judaeo-Christian- rooted ethical theism, and instead tries to build law, government and society on an evolutionary materialist frame, why? KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2015
July
07
Jul
10
10
2015
02:10 AM
2
02
10
AM
PDT
Sean, Thank you. Nice response. I'll get back to you later.Brent
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
08:51 PM
8
08
51
PM
PDT
Brent @79: Reality is a term I use to refer to those things that exist or occur whether we know about them or not. When scientists or explorers refer to their discoveries they use that term because those things were there before the scientist or the explorer stumbled upon them. Whim refers to those things we want or prefer, even transiently. Reality is not whimsical. Morality is grounded in Reality, in what really is. Our whims have no place in this.
...when in fact reality could only be described as man’s interpretation of the world as presented to his senses? Fallible man?
As I wrote, Reality is independent of our interpretations of it. You point out a real and significant problem: humans are fallible; how can we trust what they say they found? There are two answers to this: 1. This problem exists even if we claim our Morality comes from a god. How can we trust fallible humans to remove all whim, personal preference, prejudice, or bias out of their descriptions of what they tell us their god commands us to do? If fallible humans cannot be trusted to accurately describe reality, they cannot be trusted to accurately describe deistic commands. 2. The problem can only be mitigated by the ability of fallible individuals to verify, replicate, or confirm for themselves reports by other fallible humans. This is why rational persons (especially scientists) are required to publish the bases of their claims so others may check them out. This is not perfect, but it tends toward perfection. This is why rational persons are expected to construct rational arguments to justify their claims; arguments which others can examine and critique. This is not perfect either, but it tends over time to weed-out the nonsense. For religious claims, where a fallible human claims their god commands certain behavior, individual reasoning cannot go far in validating the prophet’s claims. If the claims seem to defy reason, we are told that “God’s ways are mysterious” or something to that effect. Validation by the individual is foreclosed. We are required to proceed on trust of the fallible prophet or else. Therefore, with regards to religious claims, unless the individual has a direct, personal, and clear conversation with their god all religious claims must be treated as suspect because they cannot otherwise be verified. In summary: to the extent that whim poisons reason, it is far, far more toxic to religion. sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2015
July
07
Jul
9
09
2015
09:49 AM
9
09
49
AM
PDT
I WAS doing unto others as I would have them do unto me. I don't mind at all if someone assumes what my answers would be in a discussion (esp. in this type of forum), as long as they don't go on to act as if I had actually stated what they assumed once I correct them, IF they need correction. It's sounding as if you don't think I need correction, but are taking this occasion as a way out. Is that correct? What did you mean by reality? Aren't you obfuscating your position by making it, purposely or not, look like you are grounding morality outside of man's whims by saying reality, when in fact reality could only be described as man's interpretation of the world as presented to his senses? Fallible man?Brent
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
07:42 PM
7
07
42
PM
PDT
Brent; Don’t try to put words in my mouth or anyone else’s. If you are tempted to do so, convert it to a question. Questions are fair. It’s things like putting words into the mouths of others and the side-conversations about it that delay discussions. You want to move the discussion along? Discuss. Tell us what you think. Ask us questions. Answer or at least acknowledge questions from others. Respond to what others write. Express assumptions as assumptions. Do unto others what you would want them to do unto you. sean s.sean samis
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
11:04 AM
11
11
04
AM
PDT
Sean, You could have taken the opportunity to say what it is you would have said to me, correcting anything I got wrong, but didn't. Discussion in this type of forum is sometimes quite difficult to move along, and so I find it helpful to assume answers from time to time. If I've put incorrect words in your mouth, just say so.Brent
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
To Brent, kairosfocus, JimFit; Brent @73:
I worship God, and you Reality.
I worship nothing and no one. I will borrow any good idea, even one from you.
you’ll just say, ... you’ll mean ... if you say ... Perhaps you’ll say ... etc.
Really, this entire comment seems to be a schizophrenic argument you are having with yourself. I don’t want to intrude in it. Let me know if you want me to comment on something. But a piece of advice, Brent: spend less time trying to figure out what I’m going to say and just say what you mean. You have no idea what I’m going to say anyway so leave that to me. kairosfocus @74:
The question, in short, is whether we actually are under moral government of ought, ...
This phrase is too vague for me to make sense of. Perhaps you could clarify? I would say to your hypothetical situation that the conduct described is immoral because it is harmful to the child and lacks justification or necessity. The child’s lack of strength or eloquence is irrelevant.
That is, at base/root level, there must be an IS that grounds OUGHT, ...
This is another strange phrase—at least to me—but I take it to mean that moral imperatives must be grounded in actual facts. I agree with that.
...an IS that is inherently moral and properly and adequately supports OUGHT.
Reality needs no inherent moral valence to support the “ought”; that 'it is' suffices; it is sufficient that reality is. Truth is the basis of the moral imperative.
There is but one serious candidate, ... Namely, the inherently good Creator-God, ...
A God could only suffice in this if this God engages every person in direct, unmediated, fully expressed communication. For me, this has never happened, and I suspect few people will claim it has for them. Absent that, no God’s commands are distinct from the commands of other humans; if no human has the standing to provide reliable moral commands, neither has any God who does not directly communicate his clearly intended commands to each and every one of us.
Boethius on the challenge of good vs evil ...
To Boethius: whence evil if there is no God? The good can be seen in those things that do us no harm. If all things are made by God, then evil is among them.
...is there fairness, or justice, or a duty of care to respect the truth, the right and rights? If yes obtains for any of these in any context, we face the implications of being under the moral government of OUGHT, ...
Is this your definition of “being under the moral government of OUGHT?”
... the foundational nature of the good and implying that evil is not a thing in itself but the frustration, privation or perversion of the good out of its proper purpose or end.
This relationship can be reversed: evil can be foundational, good could be the absence of evil.
There are foundational truths that may only be denied on pain of patent absurdity, ...
I agree that there are truths we deny at our peril, that morality cannot be found without reference to reality. It is the “how” of that finding that we disagree on, I think. JimFit @75:
Unconditional love means that there is no reason to love you and that i love you no matter what you did to me even if you are my enemy, i don’t understand why it is so diffult for you to accept unconditional love.
I have no difficulties accepting unconditional love, I’ve just been trying to get you to tell me what you think it means. You’re coming closer now.
Do you really need a reason to love someone?
There usually IS a reason, whether the reason is a necessity or not is unclear. It’s one of those chicken-and-egg questions. I do agree that I’d need a reason to NOT LOVE someone. ... but if all love is unconditional, the phrase unconditional love is redundant, so I am left wondering what you mean by this redundant phrase ...
...when matter is not measured it doesn’t exist,for that reason consciousness plays a central role to reality.
If matter does not exist until it’s measured, there’s nothing to measure; there’s nothing to be consciously aware of.
Watch the double slit experiement to understand.
With regard to the question of matter being created by measurement, the double-slit experiment is irrelevant. It is an experiment on things that actually exist prior to the experiment. No matter is created by this experiment.
Wrong, the wave function is not a thing nor a force, a wave function is a mathematical function that describes a physical system in quantum mechanics when there is no measurement.
So how does one measure a “mathematical function”? You make no sense. JimFit, you know nothing. With a nod to Ygritte. sean s.sean samis
July 8, 2015
July
07
Jul
8
08
2015
08:09 AM
8
08
09
AM
PDT
Sean Samis
Since it is JimFit’s position that his God’s love is UNCONDITIONAL, that means that his God’s love may be defined as “an unconditionally tender, passionate affection for another person.” Let’s give that some thought…
Unconditional love means that there is no reason to love you and that i love you no matter what you did to me even if you are my enemy, i don't understand why it is so diffult for you to accept unconditional love. Do you really need a reason to love someone?
I actually laughed when I read this! Seversky @ 67 got to this first:
Seversky is wrong because he doesn't understand quantum mechanics.
Things that do not exist cannot be measured. Measurement can only be made on things that exist. Therefore, things that can be measured ALREADY exist.
Wrong, when matter is measured it behaves like matter, when matter is not measured it doesn't exist,for that reason consciousness plays a central role to reality. Watch the double slit experiement to understand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
No. Mathematical formulas DESCRIBE these waves, but the waves exist as variations of forces. Forces exist. Matter and energy (which are the same things) are manifestations of forces.
Wrong, the wave function is not a thing nor a force, a wave function is a mathematical function that describes a physical system in quantum mechanics when there is no measurement. Reality, locality, causality, continuity, and determinism doesn't exist when matter is not measured.JimFit
July 7, 2015
July
07
Jul
7
07
2015
06:16 AM
6
06
16
AM
PDT
SS: A starter on the IS-OUGHT gap in a nutshell (cf. here on in context and here in context). As a core first issue, is it patently wrong to kidnap, bind, sexually assault and kill a young child on its way home from school? Such a child has neither strength nor eloquence to enforce "might and manipulation make so-called right." And, at some point, we are all in that position, or even more vulnerable, in the womb. (Also, sadly, this is not a hypothetical.) The question, in short, is whether we actually are under moral government of ought, or else whether our hearts, minds and consciences delude us on this matter. As, ever so many advocates of evolutionary materialism argue or imply. If the latter, we have let general delusion loose in our interior lives, and face self-referential absurdity and incoherence. (Indeed, an infinite regress of Plato's cave delusional words; this is a case of how radical skepticism, whether global or arbitrarily selective, leads to self-refuting utter breakdown of rationality. Such is usually not obvious when one is on the rhetorical defensive but comes out as soon as it is realised that one's implied worldview must also be grounded. Cf. discussion here on, part of context for the first linked. Hyperskepticism undermines rationality and undercuts itself through self-falsification.) We have every good reason to acknowledge that OUGHT is real and binding. But, how can such be grounded? Post Hume and his "surpriz'd" argument, only at world-foundation level. That is, at base/root level, there must be an IS that grounds OUGHT, an IS that is inherently moral and properly and adequately supports OUGHT. There is but one serious candidate, after centuries of debates, as can be seen from comparative difficulties analysis of alternatives. Namely, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. One way to see this is to echo Boethius on the challenge of good vs evil in his Consolation of Philosophy as he faced unjust sentence of death to get rid of a roadblock to powerful and oppressive courtiers after the fall of the Western Roman empire: “If God exists, whence evil? But whence good, if God does not exist?” In short, is there fairness, or justice, or a duty of care to respect the truth, the right and rights? If yes obtains for any of these in any context, we face the implications of being under the moral government of OUGHT, highlighting the foundational nature of the good and implying that evil is not a thing in itself but the frustration, privation or perversion of the good out of its proper purpose or end. That, too, is why the 2nd paragraph of the US DoI (charter of modern liberty and democracy) is profoundly right:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
There are foundational truths that may only be denied on pain of patent absurdity, and being under moral government of ought is one of them. With, what that implies about the root of reality. Those are the matches we are so often, so thoughtlessly playing with today. We need to think hard about what might get burned. KF PS: Further discussion here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-reasonableness-and-importance-of-the-inherently-good-creator-god-a-necessary-and-maximally-great-being/kairosfocus
July 7, 2015
July
07
Jul
7
07
2015
02:43 AM
2
02
43
AM
PDT
Well, now at least you've made it clear that you really wish to borrow from my worldview to make your own seem rational. "REALITY"!!!??? I worship God, and you Reality. No wonder it's hard for you to see the difference. But oh! There is a problem. When I call you out on your worship of the deity Reality, you'll just say, "No. I only mean by that the total sum of experience." But when we drill down further, by that you'll mean we are to take that as how man interprets things as they are presented to him. But at least two things will start screaming for attention at that point. One, part of the thing that man has interpreted about how things, life, is presented to him, is that he has an innate sense of what is right and wrong; not only a desire for one thing or another, but something that tells him he ought to do one and not the other. That IS one of the things man has interpreted from things as presented to him; not only that he may have several desires at any given moment, but that he has an internal "pressure" telling him that one of them is the "right", "proper", and "good" thing to do. THIS is what we are talking about. And right, proper, and good all presuppose an objective standard, and is how Plato reasoned to the Good: There must be an ultimate good toward which goodness points, or from which we can derive good. And further, reality as presented to us includes that man has always believed there is a reality outside himself, and transcends himself. Why would you (if you do . . . and I think you do) deny THAT reality that has presented itself to man? Now this could be a tricky point to answer, for if you say, "Well, man is superstitious," then it is the same superstitious man that only thinks he should adhere to agreed upon "oughts". When we acknowledge that, it's anarchy. Perhaps you'll say that would never happen, for anarchy doesn't benefit us. Maybe you're right. Maybe it wouldn't happen, but it will be because, no matter your irrational theory about the source of morality, there still actually exists a morality that stems from a transcendent Good. Logically speaking, there is nothing from within your framework to rationally conclude anarchy isn't good. But you get the benefit from the fact that people accept morality as an objective standard, and not a subjective one, so you never have to answer for your mistake. Society will crumble under the weight of your philosophy, and is in the process of doing so, but it takes time for this poisonous yeast to permeate the dough --- dough which still has enough sense to know for the most part that our inner senses are part of things as presented to us; it is tough for the yeast to rip out common sense and replace it with uncommon nonsense. Anyway, I mean to say only that you won't have to ultimately answer for your mistake in your own lifetime, but unless the tide is turned and the current anti-philosophy which you preach is pushed back, someone, everyone, will have to answer for it in the future. And two, and this will certainly dovetail with the above, it is still Man at the end of the day. If Reality is just how man interprets things as they are presented to him, and that is where "objective" morality comes from, it is still MAN that is doing the interpreting. In your attempt to break out, you're still firmly within man's camp. It is only man and his whims that define morality, which means that it changes to suit us, rather than us being called upon to bow to it. Man governs morality. Period. Morality does not govern man. Full stop. And here you are wildly contradicting yourself. When you say, paraphrasing, "Well, even if morality is based in some direct communication from a deity it is still by now all gummed up and uncertain because it has passed through man's hands, his interpretations, etc." are you attempting humor? So let's get this straight: We are supposed to be able to trust man's interpretations of "reality as presented to him" as long as that means nothing superstitious about a reality outside ourselves, but we are not to trust man's interpretations of "reality as presented to him" if it does include anything about a reality outside himself. In the former case, we can trust ourselves to come up with a solid morality, as you think we have, but in the latter we cannot trust ourselves to maintain an objective morality that we started off with. It is the same MAN, Sean. Make up your mind. You have no basis to discount man's trustworthiness in the one case over the other. In your view, man's hands only get dirty, and morality more uncertain, when they meddle with religion! Well, if you stick to that, then it is the same man that has passed down, in your view, a made-up morality. We may be more secular than ever today, but if morality has been passed down from millennia past, then it is from one and the same, Man! Man that used to be thoroughly religious! Are we "trustworthy" or not? If yes, then so is the testimony about reality outside ourselves, and that morality is from a transcendent source. If we are not trustworthy, then, in your view, our current morality is not to be trusted and adhered to because it was untrustworthy man that came up with it. Brother! In the one case we start with a transcendent objective standard but clumsy man can't keep it straight enough to do us any good, but in the other we start from scratch and somehow, man, despite being clumsy, is doing a bang-up job of not only creating but maintaining a worthy "standard". That's just rich!Brent
July 6, 2015
July
07
Jul
6
06
2015
08:14 PM
8
08
14
PM
PDT
Brent @71:
Subjective morality carries the weight of ought because people OUGHT to be able to rely on promises; they OUGHT to be able to trust, cooperate, and give mutual aid. You’ve explained nothing, ...
The ‘ought’ is created by necessity and harm-avoidance, that is all that is required.
You CANNOT reason out any ought that stems from an ultimate grounding in man.
Ah, there’s your confusion! A rational morality is not “grounded in man”, it is grounded in nature and in reality, in the truth of how things ARE. Humans don’t decide how things are; they observe them; they discover them; they find them; they don’t create them. Morality is grounded in how things are, not in us. If you look at the definition of Harm I provided @46, you’ll see that these all address facts, not feelings. And before you stumble into the pit of thinking that human decisions about how reality is make our morality untenable, you should remember that everything we think we know about deities also passes through the hands of humans who decide how to interpret things they think came from a deity. Except for those humans who have had actual, direct communion with a deity, all other humans are less certain of deistic commands than they are of the demands of reality. The advantage of rational morality is that it is sensible to any reasonably intelligent human; theistic morality can be quirky and illogical and the theistic advocate merely shrugs their shoulders.
I am a man, and so I have an equal veto of every “ought” so-called if it comes from man.
Who says so? You have an equal SAY, but no one has a veto except over their private actions. If the “ought” actually comes FROM man, I’d agree. But if the ought is from reality, then you don’t have a veto except over your private actions. Once your actions harm others, they have a say in your conduct. Says who? Reality does. If anyone can do something, then everyone can do the same. If there’s disagreement about what is right then the community has to settle it, and that’s what debate and consensus is about. If a person cannot live with the communal decision, then they need to decide what THEY are going to do (give in, move away, etc.). Interestingly, invoking a deity CHANGES NOTHING except the source of the ‘ought’; how people handle disagreement remains essentially the same.
Who says [Hitler] was wrong???
Reality says Hitler was wrong. As before, if any person has the right to decide to harm others, anyone can make the same decision and then no one is safe. Safety is a necessity; so the community decides what the proper course of action is. If a Hitler disagrees, that’s his right. If a Hitler disobeys, the community has the right (by necessity) to stop him and his followers by whatever means are necessary. As before, whether the community bases their decision on a deity’s command or on how things are, the decision is made and enforced essentially the same way. sean s.sean samis
July 6, 2015
July
07
Jul
6
06
2015
10:16 AM
10
10
16
AM
PDT
Well Sean Samis, at least that is a much more, uh, vociferous??? waiving of your hand than before in regards to not giving reasons that any meaningful idea of morality doesn't necessarily lead to a transcendent standard, which I GUESS is a step in the right direction . . . SS, You said:
. . . subjective morality carries the weight of ought because people rely on promises; communities cannot survive without trust, cooperation, and mutual aid. These all create obligations and result in harms when someone does not do as they ought.
Circular. Subjective morality carries the weight of ought because people OUGHT to be able to rely on promises; they OUGHT to be able to trust, cooperate, and give mutual aid. You've explained nothing, which is par for the course. You are either borrowing from MY rational worldview, or begging the question from within your own. You can't do it. You CANNOT reason out any ought that stems from an ultimate grounding in man. I am a man, and so I have an equal veto of every "ought" so-called if it comes from man. Who says communities OUGHT to survive? Hitler thought some communities OUGHT to perish. Who says he was wrong??? If man is the source of morality, man governs morality, and morality does not govern man. It'll never work.Brent
July 6, 2015
July
07
Jul
6
06
2015
08:00 AM
8
08
00
AM
PDT
@58 kairosfocus wrote:
it would be interesting to see a serious addressing of the IS-OUGHT gap, joined to answering to whether oughtness is an actual binding obligation.
I agree, this would be a very interesting conversation. If we only knew someone who could initiate that on some blog site ... ! sean s.sean samis
July 6, 2015
July
07
Jul
6
06
2015
07:48 AM
7
07
48
AM
PDT
To kairosfocus, JimFit, StephenB, Brent, logically_speaking, and kmsoileau and with reference to Seversky and Box; Sorry for the delay in responding, I am on my summer vacation. On to it: @53, kairosfocus wrote:
I now require and request that those who wish to further discuss the homosexualist twisting of the law on marriage, take such a discussion elsewhere.
I am fine with this presuming that the policy is fairly enforced. @54 JimFit: finally provided his definition of ‘love’:
a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
Since it is JimFit’s position that his God’s love is UNCONDITIONAL, that means that his God’s love may be defined as “an unconditionally tender, passionate affection for another person.” Let’s give that some thought... Regarding:
You Atheists...
I am not an atheist.
When there is no measurement there is no reality, the Macroworld doesn’t exist until it is measured.
I actually laughed when I read this! Seversky @ 67 got to this first:
So unless someone runs a tape measure over you, you don’t exist? If something doesn’t exist until you measure it, just what are you supposed to be measuring in the first place?
Things that do not exist cannot be measured. Measurement can only be made on things that exist. Therefore, things that can be measured ALREADY exist. JimFit replied (@68) that
When you reduce matter you get waves not pieces of matter and these waves are not physical things they are mathematical formulas...
No. Mathematical formulas DESCRIBE these waves, but the waves exist as variations of forces. Forces exist. Matter and energy (which are the same things) are manifestations of forces. @55 StephenB: Your comments regarding same-sex marriage fall under kairofocus’s ban and I will not comment on them. Regarding:
Your question does not apply because it isn’t specific. One specific right will always compromise another specific right.
The right to be treated by the law the same as others is a specific right; typically referred to as “equal protection”. Who loses a right when some else’s right to be treated the same as others is acknowledged? No one. The right to practice religion as your conscience dictates is a specific right typically referred to as “religious liberty”. Who loses a right when some else’s right to practice their religion as their conscience is acknowledged? No one. Who’s rights are lost when we acknowledge the freedom of speech? No one’s.
Example: The right to not be offended...
There is no such right.
The right to a free college education...
There is no such right.
the right of the taxpayer to retain part of his income.
There is a right to retain part of one’s income. There is no right to retain ALL of ones’ income because there is no right to be a freeloader on the community.
So some standard other than harm must ultimately be applied to make moral judgments. That standard is the natural moral law (and the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount).
No, the proper standards are necessity, harm-avoidance and rational justification. Religious rules CANNOT be the standard unless we deny Religious Liberty.
More important still, you cannot possibly know what harm is for someone without knowing the purpose of that person’s existence (or lack of it). If his (or her) purpose is to be with God for eternity, we harm him if we take him away from that destiny, which would mean eternal harm. Even if we protect him from all other harm, we have harmed him beyond repair. On the other hand, if he has no purpose, then the word “harm” takes on a whole new meaning.
No one can know whether there even is such a purpose, much less what it is. And if your God loves us unconditionally, He will not place among us one we cannot defend ourselves from; one we must never harm. That would be an unloving act. @56 Brent:
...it would be nice to have a reasoned explanation as to why you would contradict the intellectual towers of the past.
Because those “intellectual towers of the past” sometimes misled us, and were mere humans in any event. If they were right, “a guy named Brent on Uncommon Descent” would be able to explain the reasons they are right. When “a guy named Brent on Uncommon Descent” has to resort to wondering how I dare to challenge past authorities, then that indicates that “a guy named Brent on Uncommon Descent” has no idea why he or I should obey these past thinkers.
If any “moral” isn’t objective, it simply isn’t a moral.
If you are correct (I think not.) then there is no morality. Notice that I think you are wrong, I think there is morality; it’s just not what you think it is.
Nothing subjective carries the weight of ought. ... You cannot get an ought from subjective anything, and that’s all you are left with without an ultimate, transcendent authority. And absent an ought, you are absent morals.
Well, perhaps YOU can’t, but the rest of us can. A subjective morality carries the weight of ought because people rely on promises; communities cannot survive without trust, cooperation, and mutual aid. These all create obligations and result in harms when someone does not do as they ought.
Whims are not the source of the moral law, but whims are the source of the moral law anyway.
Whims have nothing to do with it. Perhaps the error that Box referred to @61 has gotten ahold of you:
I do have a problem with the subjective-objective dichotomy wrt to morality, where “subjective” is equated with “endlessly unpredictable”. As in, if morality is subjective, then anything goes, because a whimsical subject can hold any position. From this axiom it follows that morality must be objective—not part of the thoroughly untrustworthy subject—, and must be imposed from the outside in order to keep our children safe.
I’m not sure how much of Box’s comment (@61) I agree with, but I do think Box may have hit on an important point. “Subjective” and “whimsical” are not synonymous.
You have heard the voice of God.
I have never heard the voice of God. Never.
... say what you really think and must necessarily mean: ‘Humans govern humans.’
Even you think “humans govern humans”; where we disagree is the source of the rules they follow to govern with; a religious morality or a rational morality. If you are going to say that your God governs humans, then where is his court that I may lodge a complaint? Telling me to wait contradicts claims that God loves us because justice delayed is justice denied; that would be an unloving act @60 logically_speaking:
First there is a difference between killing and murder. Second...
This is a nice little analysis of justified killing; all you miss is the obvious: if a person can be deprived of their right to life due to necessity or as a punishment, then the “right to life” is NOT absolute. An absolute right cannot be alienated (GIVEN or TAKEN away) under ANY circumstances. You have described circumstances in which the right to life can be alienated; therefore the right to life is not absolute. Likewise with the other rights we discussed.
You are completely wrong. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand, you cannot have one without the other.
Rights and responsibilities DO go hand in hand, but they are not the same things. That’s why we have different words for them. So we can speak of them separately. Rights are never absolute BECAUSE responsibilities come with them; because one can exercise one’s rights in a way that violates the rights of others. Because a violation of another’s rights makes one’s own rights forfeit. Perhaps you should discuss this with StephenB, who insists that rights are ALWAYS a zero-sum topic. If StephenB is right, then you cannot be right. If you are right, StephenB cannot be. I’ll let you two duke that one out between you. BTW, I think you both are wrong. Rights are not absolute, but actual rights are not zero-sum. @63 kmsoileau:
The ability to perceive the suffering of another being does not inexorably imply any restriction on one’s behavior; for example if a lion doesn’t have empathy for its prey, would it change its behavior if it were endowed with such empathy?
Would the lion have any choice? It must eat or die, and it cannot survive as a herbivore. Empathy is part of the basis of morality, but it is not enough by itself. But, without empathy (or something substantially similar) morality is not possible. sean s.sean samis
July 6, 2015
July
07
Jul
6
06
2015
07:36 AM
7
07
36
AM
PDT
Seversky When you reduce matter you get waves not pieces of matter and these waves are not physical things they are mathematical formulas of course this until we measure, to answer your question when the measurement happens the wave collapse happens and matter returns to its original state. This is a very crude explanation to help you understand since you are a newbie. This play-list explains the argument really well, you should check it. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_JimFit
July 6, 2015
July
07
Jul
6
06
2015
05:28 AM
5
05
28
AM
PDT
JimFit @ 54
Yes it does…Reality doesn’t exist until is measured. http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....103110.htm
If I posted all the sites and articles that prove that consciousness remains an enigma and that no Creator is needed, you’d not be persuaded. So why would you think a boat-load of links would persuade me? If you cannot explain how this works, then I have no reason to think you have it right.
What do you mean how it works? When there is no measurement there is no reality, the Macroworld doesn’t exist until it is measured.
So unless someone runs a tape measure over you, you don’t exist? If something doesn’t exist until you measure it, just what are you supposed to be measuring in the first place? Besides, if you read the Science Daily description of the experiment that is not what happened, in spite of some rather loose talk. The experiment, in a broad sense, was measuring the nature or properties of fundamental units of matter, in other words, atoms. Quantum theory is still a theory about how the material world behaves on the very smallest scale.Seversky
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
11:41 PM
11
11
41
PM
PDT
Wisdom comes from experience. Experience comes from a lack of wisdom.anthropic
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
Popperian #62,
Popperian: Just as with the knowledge in an organism’s genome, the theistic expiation for the growth of moral knowledge is either absent, irrational, or supernatural.
Is “learning” an ‘irrational’ or ‘supernatural’ explanation of ‘growth of moral knowledge’? I would say that the concept of a person, who learns about morality e.g. by suffering the consequences of his mistakes, received broad acceptance everywhere.
Popperian: Moral knowledge grows (…)
Sure, most of us learn from mistakes.
Popperian: (…) just like all other knowledge. Theists have no such universal explanation for the growth of knowledge.
And the universal theistic explanation is (TADA!!): the existence of intelligent persons guarantees the growth of knowledge. What on earth are you on about?Box
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT
Popperian: Sniffing "supernatural" as a dismissal is not good enough to address what is on the table. Are you and are we under the government of ought, including, do we have inalienable rights to life, liberty and the like? If not, then morality is a delusion, mindedness is warped by that delusion and the whole project of responsible, rational freedom collapses. Besides, we would then be prey to might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth.' This is absurd nihilism, and those who embrace or support it or simply passively enable it had better realise the matches they are playing with. Such nihilism is self-referentially incoherent. We can take it that OUGHT is real and binding, starting with fundamental rights. We are under moral government. That means, we live in a world where there is an IS that grounds OUGHT. After centuries, there is precisely one serious candidate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, who is worthy of ultimate loyalty and of the reasonable service of doing the good that is evident from our common human nature. Your dismissive sniffing tells us little more than that you are hostile to God, it is not a cogent answer to the root of a world in which we are morally governed. That is the issue to be addressed, and in a day when it is increasingly plain that Plato's warning from 360 BC is dead on target:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . ], and not in legal subjection to them.
As to genuine reformation and recognition of fresh and genuine moral insights, I would suggest to you that our rationality is finite, fallible, and too often hampered and blinded by ever so many factors as we seek to grow in virtue. So it should not be any surprise that moral understanding and practice can both grow and decline in the individual, the institution, the community, nation and civilisation. That is, your pretence that moral growth is somehow a challenge to the grounding of OUGHT in the only serious IS on the table, is a strawman argument. KFkairosfocus
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
08:24 AM
8
08
24
AM
PDT
@REC Empathy has objective moral implications only if one assumes that empathy has objective moral implications. Your use of empathy as the source of an objective moral standard is a perfect example of circular logic. The ability to perceive the suffering of another being does not inexorably imply any restriction on one's behavior; for example if a lion doesn't have empathy for its prey, would it change its behavior if it were endowed with such empathy?kmsoileau
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
08:16 AM
8
08
16
AM
PDT
Just as with the knowledge in an organism's genome, the theistic expiation for the growth of moral knowledge is either absent, irrational, or supernatural. Moral knowledge grows, just like all other knowledge. Theists have no such universal explanation for the growth of knowledge.Popperian
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
I do have a problem with the subjective-objective dichotomy wrt to morality, where "subjective" is equated with "endlessly unpredictable". As in, if morality is subjective, then anything goes, because a whimsical subject can hold any position. From this axiom it follows that morality must be objective—not part of the thoroughly untrustworthy subject—, and must be imposed from the outside in order to keep our children safe. I believe that we have to differentiate between the temporal and real. In my philosophy we are on our way to become moral persons, just as we are on our way to become rational persons. We are here to make mistakes and learn. Just as thinking is not imposed on us from the outside, I do not believe that being moral is imposed on us from the outside, but is part of us instead. It would not make sense to learn a toddler to say "E = MC^2"—because of the disconnect/lack of understanding. I believe in life after death (and reincarnation). And I do believe that, in the end of the learning process, each of us on his/her own will arrive at the same truth about logic and morality, because in those respects we are the same; despite being individual persons. Yes, there is perfect morality and perfect logic 'out there' in God, but that doesn't mean that morality is in principle alien to us—not part of us—, because we as subjects are and will always be thoroughly untrustworthy.Box
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
05:17 AM
5
05
17
AM
PDT
Sean Samis, Me - The right to life … seems pretty absolute to me You - So when the police kill someone that’s a crime always? If it’s not, then the right to life is not absolute. My response - First there is a difference between killing and murder. Second I would say if police are involved it usually means someone is violating someone elses rights. If you commit a violation of rights you become fit for punishment. Obviously any punishment will require a violation of your own rights, not because they are not absolute, but because you have forfeited your own rights when you committed the crime. Unless the police are protecting someone else's right to life, it is a crime for even the police to kill. Me - The right to freedom You - So when they put someone in prison, that’s a crime always? If it’s not, then the right to freedom is not absolute. My response - You are talking punishment after a crime, where rights are forfeited. Interestingly prison resricts freedom it does not completely take it away. But of course outside of prison, travel is also restricted. Our rights are violated all the time, we just don't realise it or care. Me - The right to property You - So if property is repossessed due to failure to pay debts, taxes, or because the property was used in a crime, that taking of property is a crime itself always? My response - If if you have to pay depts or taxes on property then that property isn't actually OWNED by you. You need to understand what true ownership is before you understand property rights. You also talk about crime and punishment again, crimes forfeit rights. You - Or if the other guy won’t sell available property to you? That’s a crime always? My response - If the available property is not owned by the other guy he has no right to sell it to you. If it is his property he can do as he wants. You - You know where this is going… All rights have their reasonable bounds. My response - They have absolute bounds that we violate all the time. Me - The responsibility to protect these rights. You- This is not a right, so it’s a whole different topic. If this responsibility is absolute, then you MUST risk your life to help others. I’m sure there’s very little agreement on that. My response - You are completely wrong. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand, you cannot have one without the other. This responsibility is the Golden rule in other words. It is not just about protecting rights for ourselves but protection for everyone else as well. This is what sacrifice is, giving your life for another.logically_speaking
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
05:12 AM
5
05
12
AM
PDT
REC, BTW, I do not try to prove universality of morality. (And the suggestion that I am trying to introduce some idiosyncratic and dubious novelty falls of its own weight. You must know better than such.) The very fact that in trying to object to the objective, binding force of OUGHT you are forced to appeal to ought not and to suggest various degrees of guilt by association while dismissing the very real moral struggles of a man whose shoes you are not up to unlatching -- a man who proved a great friend of humanity for all his failings -- shows that you too recognise the binding nature of ought. In short, your argument is patently incoherent. To see the point, ponder, do we have rights that even the weak and inarticulate cannot be alienated from? Such as, life? Liberty? Being recognised as sharing in the common human nature with the inherent dignity and expectation of respect that implies? That is, the genuine form of "equality" that you would manipulate or go along with those who do manipulate? If we really have rights, we have binding moral expectations that are universally assertable. That is, to appeal to rights, fairness, justice and duties of care to such and to truth is to imply that we are under the moral government of OUGHT. (Unless you are emptily parroting the cynical rhetoric and agit-prop of those who only wish to get their own way by manipulating the perception of moral obligation, meanwhile resorting to intimidatory comparisons to widely disapproved practices.) We can safely take the above to imply that you actually acknowledge the reality of our being under moral government, rooted in our common humanity and the dignity that nature implies. Which is of course precisely the argument of Jefferson, the other fifty-odd founders of the American republic, and of the millions who supported them. Many, to the point of putting life, liberty and honour on the line. (Where, BTW, the simple fact that the original draft of the US DoI argued against the slave trade and was taken out as an uneasy compromise on the lesser of evils is more than sufficient to highlight the moral struggle and politics of realistic reformation I earlier alluded to. The same extends to the twenty years clock on the slave trade written into the US Constitution. Let me cite two relevant biblical texts that have been largely forgotten: 1 Tim 1:"8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious . . . for slave traders and liars and perjurers – and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel . . . " [hint, look at the full list] and, in a letter sent back with an escaped slave [Onesimus], Philemon 1:15 "Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back for ever – 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord. 17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me." In short we see here the fundamental equality of humanity recognised and the moral struggle we face is highlighted. In the latter case, Paul was writing as an appeals prisoner literally chained to a guard in a case where a runaway had come to him for refuge. His core case for manumission is literally the heart of the motto of the Antislavery Society: Am I not a man and a brother. The second motto, Am I not a woman and a sister, builds on v 2 of the same short letter, addressing: "Apphia our sister." Notice the typical, habitual greeting of Christians: Bro X and Sis Y. It is plain to all save the utterly closed minded, that there is a core recognition of equality in common humanity and a recognition of the core relationship of husband and wife. Of course, the malicious and murderous in ancient times twisted such into a false accusation of incest and orgies, even as the bread and wine of the meal of communion were twisted into an accusation of cannibalism.) Now, plainly, what I have pointed to is an issue that has been widely known since Hume: the IS-OUGHT gap and the grounding of OUGHT. The implication is, that there is exactly one place where OUGHT can be grounded: the root of reality, in an IS that simultaneously is the proper and adequate basis for ought. That is, the inner voice we term conscience (when unsquelched and unwarped) is a compass needle pointing to the nature of the roots of reality. So, like it or lump it, once OUGHT is real, it points to the root of reality being an IS that grounds OUGHT. As you know or should know, after centuries of debate there is precisely one serious candidate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, who is worthy of ultimate loyalty and of the reasonable service of doing the good that is evident from our common human nature. Hence, again, the force of the argument Locke makes in founding what would become modern liberty and democracy by citing "the judicious Hooker" in Ch 2 sec 5 of his 2nd treatise on civil gov't:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80]
This is of course the direct root of the 2nd paragraph of the US DoI. That is the case and historical context that you must answer, knowing the issues that are at stake. No, it's not silly IDiots like Brent and KF and SB, it's not racists, slavers and segregationists who can be tarred and dismissed without further consideration. (I trust you see the fallacious nature of red herrings led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere.) No, there is a world-foundational question on the table deeply tied into why we have core unalienable rights rooted in our nature, to how genuine reforms advance, and to the rise -- and current decline -- of modern liberty and democratic self-government. And, at that level, once we are under the government of ought we face the only serious candidate to ground such: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, who is worthy of ultimate loyalty and of the reasonable service of doing the good that is evident from our common human nature. Where, of course, evolutionary materialist scientism undermines mind and reason (indeed, it seems to undermine recognition of the reality of a real, self-moved conscious responsibly free self), it can provide no ground for OUGHT beyond might and manipulation make 'right,' and it therefore falls into self-referential absurdity and self-falsification. It contradicts the first fact we all experience, and would utterly undermine the hope of rationality. So, we come back to: once ought is real, it has roots, and we live in a world utterly unlike that painted by lab coat clad evolutionary materialistic scientism. And if one would argue that ought is not real, s/he lets loose grand delusion in the heart of self-aware mindedness, ending in patent self-referential absurdity. That, in the end is Eric's great (and unrecognised) blunder. KFkairosfocus
July 3, 2015
July
07
Jul
3
03
2015
03:04 AM
3
03
04
AM
PDT
Brent, it would be interesting to see a serious addressing of the IS-OUGHT gap, joined to answering to whether oughtness is an actual binding obligation. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
09:10 PM
9
09
10
PM
PDT
SB, I will let your comment stand as a reply but given the circumstances I gavel further debates on the homosexualisation of marriage tangent. As explained already. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
09:05 PM
9
09
05
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply