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Eric lets the amoral cat out of the bag: “It may be ‘so what’ to you (and me) that morality is ultimately subjective . . .”

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It is instructive to see this inadvertently revealing comment on a blog post by Jason Rosenhouse.

But first, let’s remind ourselves of a very important visually made point:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .
Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

And now:

>>eric April 15, 2015

Of course, you can challenge my definition. You can say that it’s just a product of my own subjective judgment that it’s bad to harm sentient beings. But so what?

I have not read Arrington’s posts, but I would bet that he is exactly going after the subjective vs. objective distinction. There’s been a recent spate of philosophers and/or reasonably prominent atheists trying to propose an objective morality (without the need for a god). I would bet he is going after these ideas.

It may be “so what” to you (and me) that morality is ultimately subjective, but many people find that thought upsetting. Arrington is pushing on that discomfort to gain converts for theism. He’s proselytizing: design will give you laypeople back that foundation for objective morality you want so badly, so (this part is implied and rarely stated) therefore you should believe in design.>>

In short, we are right back to an indifferent shoulder-shrug to the longstanding (cf. Plato in The Laws Bk X, c 360 BC) implication of evolutionary materialism, that might and manipulation make ‘right.’ (So, it’s just a matter of who has more might and who is cleverer at manipulating the opinions — and, especially the emotions — of the sheeple who think that we are under objective moral government of OUGHT. Who actually imagine they have real unalienable rights, starting with life, liberty, conscience and the like.)

Which, should ring some very loud warning bells.

In answer to such cynicism, I draw to our attention, a warning and a hope at the foundation of modern liberty and democracy, as Locke cites Hooker in his 2nd treatise on Civil Government:

>>. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80]>>

And again, Jefferson et al as they built on that foundation in the US DoI 1776:

>>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness . . . >>

So, whose report do we believe — eric et al, or Locke, Hooker and Jefferson et al, why? And, where does this all point? END

Comments
"I add, that the only serious candidate IS that grounds OUGHT is the inherently good creator God, a maximally great and necessary being worthy of serving by doing the good in accord with our nature." Jason Rosenhouse's post deals with this quite nicely. Invoking God does not solve the problem of objective morality. "God's Will" has been as deeply contested as, say "Human Nature." As he says: "I can as easily challenge a theist’s subjective judgment that we have a reliable way of knowing God’s will, and that we should accede to that will even if we do. Any proposed standard of morality can be challenged by someone intent on denying it."REC
July 1, 2015
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"The natural moral law is, by definition, objective by virtue of the fact that nature is objective." That is one way to finish the discussion. Declare X is objective by definition. It is also completely incoherent. If nature is objective, than every thing humans do and think (as part of nature) is objective. Same for all other animals. Even when contradictory, apparently. So which is the human male nature---the aggressive polygamous Gorilla, or the passive, polyamorous bisexual bonobo? Which of these relatives should we emulate? "Human nature" is subjective. Open to interpretation.REC
July 1, 2015
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"StephenB @ 7 observed The fact that you, yourself, recognize slavery as an objective evil. If you had not recognized it, it would not have occurred to you to use it against Jefferson. Lol, nice. That’s a checkmate, friend!" Seriously!?! The argument is that I think something is wrong, therefore it is objectively wrong? I can only think things that are objectively wrong are wrong? Silly. Counterpoints: not every slave owner thought they were doing wrong. Slavery persists in some societies today. I think denying universal marriage is wrong. You think depriving some people of their rights is ok. Should I go on? Do you need a dictionary definition of "objective"?REC
July 1, 2015
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Why do those who deny any objective morality always insist that we conform to their [allegedly subjective] [a-]morality?Mung
July 1, 2015
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StephenB @ 7 observed
The fact that you, yourself, recognize slavery as an objective evil. If you had not recognized it, it would not have occurred to you to use it against Jefferson.
Lol, nice. That's a checkmate, friend! All of the huffing and puffing by moral relativists is groundless. If morality is determined by consensus, then the moral narrative is ultimately determined by force. Moral relativists can justify anything for "the greater good," of which they consider themselves uniquely qualified to determine. However, their judge will ultimately be God, in front of whom they will one day appear in shame for their profound selfishness as they see their actions and motives in review. Sadly, it was their decision and their choice to separate themselves forever from God, who with love tried to save them. -QQuerius
July 1, 2015
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Folks, it is obvious that there is a consistent pattern of implying that we are under government of OUGHT. This puts at the centre of all of the above the issue of grounding OUGHT in a foundational IS. It also forces us to face the implication of responsible freedom in accord with our nature. All of this already puts evolutionary materialism -- which can provide no such grounds, indeed is credibly self referentially incoherent -- in serious trouble. Per fair comment, it is self referentially incoherent and self-falsifying. Never mind the lab coats. I add, that the only serious candidate IS that grounds OUGHT is the inherently good creator God, a maximally great and necessary being worthy of serving by doing the good in accord with our nature. Further to sexual morality and the linked morality of family, it is patent that maleness and femaleness are complementary and that child nurture requires stability and complementarity in family life. Rooted in our nature. Evident from our nature. And so, I bring us back to Locke's citation of Hooker with the onward reference to Aristotle:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80]
KF PS: BTW, I was not quoting anyone when I said that it is relatively easy to see what we ought to do, a lot harder to do it. I was simply reporting on my own moral experience and that of many others I have observed over the years. The issue, is to move ahead along the path of virtue.kairosfocus
July 1, 2015
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sean samis
There can be no singular morality proper to the private or consensual conduct of every person. One of the aspects of this “public morality” is the recognition of human rights an liberties.
Public morality is nothing more than the outward expression of private morality. In any case, what is your basis for determining which public behaviors are moral and which public behaviors are immoral? What is your basis for saying that some rights are basic while others are not? Or are you saying that all claimed rights are basic rights?StephenB
July 1, 2015
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“It is demonstrable that there is such a thing as human nature.” REC
Ok. Demonstrate it. Is it consistent and universal?
Humans are always born of other humans. They build households and form more complex communities by using their faculties of reason and imagination. If they are normal, they desire to be happy and pursue what they think is good for them. They desire to know truth, to be loved, and to live forever. This, among other things, is their nature. Human nature never changes.
One of the prime critiques of natural law theories is that people interpret nature and natural differently. You’re back to subjectivity in your first sentence.
The natural moral law is, by definition, objective by virtue of the fact that nature is objective. Can you name one fundamental aspect of human nature that has changed in all of history? Or, are you trying to argue that there is no such thing as human nature?
How do we infer what ‘natural’ traits are good and should be developed? If human males are naturally aggressive (gorillas), do we develop war as a good trait? If we are naturally poly amorous and bisexual (bonobos) do we develop those traits.
The natural tendency of a man to be aggressive is neither good nor bad. What matters is how it is used. According to reason and the natural moral law (the natural moral law is inextricably tied to reason), it is immoral to use aggressiveness for murder and moral to use aggressiveness for self defense. Without the natural moral law, we could not even make the distinction.
So much of our being is shaped by environment.
The very fact that we can make a distinction between man's nature and man's environment shows that there is such a thing as man's nature.
I think you’re using “natural law” as a substitute for “God given,” in the sense of Aristotle.
It is one thing to recognize the existence of the natural moral law, which is epistemological, and quite another thing to explain how and where it is grounded (God), which is ontological. Reason tells us first that the natural moral law exists. From there, we can infer the existence of God. However, we need not accept the latter to recognize the former.
Interestingly, as promised, both Martin Luther King, Jr. PhD, and racists invoked “natural law” regarding segregation.
Recall the principle at stake. Reason, inherent human dignity, and the natural moral law are inseparable. Thus, anyone who claims that he is using the NML to argue on behalf of segregation, which violates inherent dignity, is contradicting himself. Natural law, properly understood, recognizes equality among races (not among sexual lifestyles).StephenB
July 1, 2015
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Seversky you self debunked yourself, you said
As I read it, the Locke/Hooker quote is just another statement of the Golden Rule which does not require the assumption of any objective foundation for morality.
The golden rule is transcendent, immaterial, spaceless and timeless, it would apply even if we move to another galaxy or back in time or in the future, since this rule is transcendent it is unchangeable and that makes it by definition objective, change happens only inside spacetime.JimFit
July 1, 2015
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sean samis Christianity is about unconditional love. God created us out of unconditional love because God is Eternal and if you are eternal the only thing that can exist is unconditional love because that type of love is aimless while evil aims somewhere, how can an Eternal God aim somewhere when He doesn't have an end? God cannot do evil because evil is pointless on Eternity. This grounds absolute morality on God's Nature. Morality is also transcendent and steams from our transcendent consciousness, the golden law would apply even if we move outside earth or back in time, it would still be immoral etc to torture you even if we go to the moon, absolute morality cannot be grounded on materialism, we don't say etc that if i kick you is bad because this rock is heavy or because its 9 o'clock. You seem to agree with the golden law
Slavery and segregation are wrongs because they are non-consensual violations of the rights of the slave or the one segregated.
There are of course some moral choices which are subjective etc it is immoral for a Muslim woman to walk publicly without her head covered but that doesn't mean that all moral choices are equally subjective. The usual argument i take from the random cosmic accidents that nothingness spewed (atheists) is something like this "ISIS kills people for blasphemy and that makes murder subjectively evil for them" Well, that's wrong, ISIS kills people for blasphemy because they know that killing someone is evil that's why they don't punish them by giving them free candies, they just think that blasphemy is equal evil with death.JimFit
July 1, 2015
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As I read it, the Locke/Hooker quote is just another statement of the Golden Rule which does not require the assumption of any objective foundation for morality. The passage from the Declaration of Independence is asserting what are the natural rights of free people and that a government can only derive its legitimacy and authority from the free exercise of those rights. Again, it has nothing to do with an objective basis of morality.Seversky
July 1, 2015
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Regarding # 11;
It is demonstrable that there is such a thing as human nature.
It is demonstrable that beyond basic biological needs; there is no such thing as a singular human nature that is identical in every person. Even the nature of those biological needs varies naturally.
It follows that if there is such a thing as human nature, then there a morality proper to human nature, which is understood as the natural moral law.
Since there is no singular human nature, then there can be no singular morality proper to all humans except that which governs conduct BETWEEN individuals (a public morality). There can be no singular morality proper to the private or consensual conduct of every person. One of the aspects of this “public morality” is the recognition of human rights an liberties.
Any act which violates a person’s nature is immoral.
Any act which violates a person’s RIGHTS is immoral. The right to determine the parameters of one’s nature is a right so long as it does not violate the rights of others.
Those who argue for universal marriage rights are arguing against the laws of nature.
Perhaps. But those who argue for the marital rights of same-sex couples are not arguing against any law of nature. Those who insist that all persons must conform to “standard” conduct argue against natural law.
First, you will have to explain why slavery and segregation are wrong. Why are they wrong?
Slavery and segregation are wrongs because they are non-consensual violations of the rights of the slave or the one segregated. sean s.sean samis
July 1, 2015
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StephenB, Natural Law vis-a-vis universal marriage rights does not address intersex conditions, and as a separate argument, can be used to support polygamy. All of which is to say that even natural law is not provably objective nor comprehensive.rhampton7
July 1, 2015
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"It is demonstrable that there is such a thing as human nature." Ok. Demonstrate it. Is it consistent and universal? One of the prime critiques of natural law theories is that people interpret nature and natural differently. You're back to subjectivity in your first sentence. How do we infer what 'natural' traits are good and should be developed? If human males are naturally aggressive (gorillas), do we develop war as a good trait? If we are naturally poly amorous and bisexual (bonobos) do we develop those traits. So much of our being is shaped by environment. I think you're using "natural law" as a substitute for "God given," in the sense of Aristotle. Interestingly, as promised, both Martin Luther King, Jr. PhD, and racists invoked "natural law" regarding segregation.REC
July 1, 2015
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StephenB---KF intended that as a proof of universal morality (failing to prevail, I suppose). As a personal motto, it is fine. Now, back to demonstrating the supreme court justices who voted in favor of universal marriage rights were objectively immoral......REC
July 1, 2015
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REC: Who on the Supreme Court is more moral–those for or against universal marriage rights? StephenB: Those who are against universal marriage rights REC
This is objectively demonstrable? Please proceed….
It is demonstrable that there is such a thing as human nature. It follows that if there is such a thing as human nature, then there is a morality proper to human nature, which is understood as the natural moral law. Any act which violates a person's nature is immoral. Those who argue for universal marriage rights are arguing against the laws of nature.
Warning–I’m well prepared to demonstrate that every argument you make is paralleled in the slavery and segregation debate.
That will be harder to do than you think. First, you will have to explain why slavery and segregation are wrong. Why are they wrong? REC “The inherent dignity of the human person” is a core humanist principle." The inherent dignity of the human person is a core humanist principle, but the inherent dignity of the human person as defined by the natural moral law is not.
Getting there is quite simple, and only requires empathy.
Do you have empathy for babies who are slaughtered in the womb in the name of "choice?" Or, is your empathy unguided by any principle other than your feelings and biases?StephenB
July 1, 2015
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“The problem is not that what we ought to do is so hard to recognise, but that it is often challenging to live up to it.” REC
Is a cute quote….for a fantasy world.
On the contrary. Living a moral life is much harder than simply knowing about it or talking about it. I know that I should love my enemies, but it is ofter very hard to do.StephenB
July 1, 2015
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REC: Who on the Supreme Court is more moral–those for or against universal marriage rights? StephenB: Those who are against universal marriage rights This is objectively demonstrable? Please proceed.... Warning--I'm well prepared to demonstrate that every argument you make is paralleled in the slavery and segregation debate. "The inherent dignity of the human person" is a core humanist principle. Getting there is quite simple, and only requires empathy.REC
July 1, 2015
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Why Theism does not presumptively provide “objective” morality. Although it is certainly possible for a theism to provide an “objective” morality, on the whole that is unlikely for the following reasons: 1. If the deity’s existence is not objectively knowable, then the morality “it provides” cannot be objective. Subjective claims about the existence of a deity cannot result in an objective morality. 2. If the morality in question can only be known through intermediaries (prophets, priests, popes, theologians, etc.) by way of their human accounts, translations, interpretations, scriptures, etc. then even an actually-objective morality cannot be objectively known because it has been subjected to human subjective “spinning”. Only a direct communication with a deity can provide objective access to an objective morality. 3. If through direct communication a deity is known to have formed their morality by reason and logic comprehensible to humans, then the morality could be objective. 4. If it is not directly known how the deity formed their morality, then the deity could merely be expressing their preferences, which are by definition subjective. 5. Incomprehensible reasoning by the deity compels accepting their rules by trust, which is a preference. Such morality would be subjective. Only persons who have had direct communications with an actual deity have access to an objective morality; the rest of us do not. Teaching by such a blessed person constitute a subjective morality because we must accept their accounts on trust. For those who have had direct communications with a deity, the deity’s morality can only be objective if the deity has logically justified their moral claims, otherwise the deity expresses only a subjective preference. However, the decision to trust the deity’s logic is a subjective preference. Probably the distinction between objective and subjective is pointless; these terms differ principally in their degree of confidence which is either quantifiable by some standard metric (ex: P-value) or is itself only a preference. I am sure the above is not a complete list of the reasons that theism does not usually provide an “objective” morality. I am open to suggestions and criticisms, but on the basis of simple reason, there is no actually-objective morality known to any person who has not had direct communion with their deity who explained their moral reasoning. I have never had that kind of experience. sean s.sean samis
July 1, 2015
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REC
Did Jefferson know and follow God’s will? After all, he owned people.
Insofar as he owned people, he did not follow God's will.
Who on the Supreme Court is more moral–those for or against universal marriage rights?
Those who are against universal marriage rights.
Those for or against segregation
Those who are against segregation.
or anti-miscegenation?
Those who are against anti-miscegenation.
What is this universal and penetrating moral standard?
The inherent dignity of the human person as understood through the natural moral law. (Are these questions supposed to be hard?)
Where is the evidence that morality is objective?
The fact that you, yourself, recognize slavery as an objective evil. If you had not recognized it, it would not have occurred to you to use it against Jefferson.StephenB
July 1, 2015
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REC, are you looking to excuse your own behaviour? You really don't have to point at other people to do that you know. You just do what you want and then say "so what" if someone else doesn't like it.Mung
July 1, 2015
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Oh come now, KF, Jefferson as a pure enlightenment thinker wracked with guilt over slavery is a carefully crafted myth of his biographers. Most historians reject it. He bought and sold slaves, raped at least one, pursued runaways. He wrote on the inferiority of blacks, that they were suited to slavery, and that if freed, the races should stay separate. But this is besides the point. "The problem is not that what we ought to do is so hard to recognise, but that it is often challenging to live up to it." Is a cute quote....for a fantasy world. Do you think every southern slaver who turned to the bible felt guilty for what he did? Do you think they thought the "Curse of Ham" was a lie? Did the supreme court justices who voted for or against segregation, anti-miscegenation laws or anti-gay marriage laws know they were in the wrong or right? You think some deliberately voted against their conscience? Do you think the murderers in Jamaican politics, including those responsible for the Eventide fire, told themselves "Hey, lets do some evil", or did they think they were fighting for a greater good? A different political future for their people?REC
July 1, 2015
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KF
The problem is not that what we ought to do is so hard to recognise, but that it is often challenging to live up to it.
QUOTE OF THE WEEK?
CannuckianYankee
July 1, 2015
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Rec, so predictable. Jefferson was a conscience-lashed, hopelessly indebted slave holder (who would thus have been financially trapped) who had the courage to speak the truth on morality. To the eternal gratitude of millions. And if you want to see just one step of how to discern the patently moral, start with Hooker as cited by Locke who riffs off Jesus, Moshe and Paul, with Aristotle in there too. Quite a band I'd say. Just for fun, let me cite the ever so despised Paul, as he builds on the Sermon on the Mount:
Rom 13: 8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Now, tell me that such is ever so mysterious and hard to follow, starting with that he who would rob me of my livelihood for failing to be politically correct, would rob me and my family of our lives. The problem is not that what we ought to do is so hard to recognise, but that it is often challenging to live up to it. KFkairosfocus
July 1, 2015
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One of the more salient parts of his post (to me) is: "I can as easily challenge a theist’s subjective judgment that we have a reliable way of knowing God’s will, and that we should accede to that will even if we do. Any proposed standard of morality can be challenged by someone intent on denying it." Did Jefferson know and follow God's will? After all, he owned people. Who on the Supreme Court is more moral--those for or against universal marriage rights? Those for or against segregation or anti-miscegenation? What is this universal and penetrating moral standard? Where is the evidence that morality is objective?REC
July 1, 2015
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What is at stake.kairosfocus
July 1, 2015
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