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Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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A plumbline
A plumbline tells whether a wall is true (straight) and plumb (accurately vertical)

It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

[youtube UQfRdl3GTw4]

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
RB: I appreciate the response. I must further respond by again pointing to the square of opposition, in the now rehabilitated classical form. (Cf, SEP, here and my accession at 333. F/N to Copi et al duly noted.) E = Error exists is an I-form proposition, which only affirms that at least one error exists: "There is at least one x such that x is properly collected by the set R that collects errors." But by contrast, the denial proposition, by the diagonal opposition is a UNIVERSAL NEGATION, an E-form. ~E asserts that "R is empty, there is no x such that R collects it." That universality of the E-form, by contrast with the particularity of the I-form, entails self reference. ~E requires that there are no errors, including no propositions that are false. E -- a particular affirmation -- simply does not do that, and has no internal entailment that demands that it itself be deemed true or false. (Kindly cf. the chart of the classic square of opposition as linked in light of the rehabilitative argument which restores the full square.) So, SB and I are in full substantial agreement. And, for good (albeit now not often thought- through) reason. Having duly noted, I agree, the classic square of opposition and syllogisms dependent thereupon, are not a major focus in current education. Though, the particular point of particularity vs universality, is along the X of full contradictions preserved in the modern approach that Parsons has aptly amended at SEP. And, that shift to the universal form is the key. Once we have an E-form, a single counter-example overturns it. Where, the conjunction {E AND ~E} is necessarily false and is a proposition which must be an error. So, simply by considering E, ~E and the conjunction we have an error directly entailed by denial of E. Which also allows us to see that of the two antithetical claims, it is ~E that must be false and so E is undeniably true. E is self-evident, as advertised. This is in addition to being a commonplace matter of fact. (The complexities of the square of opposition are only required to correct the particular error in your objection, they are not part of how an exercise of common good sense will see that the attempt to deny E boils down to saying: "it is an ERROR to say that eror exists." Oopsie.) KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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KF:
I find it sad that you cannot simply and straightforwardly admit that you overlooked the word “not” in my 313
You’re right: I’m guilty of a lack of precision in 318. But mine at 316 makes it clear that I respect the distinction between “error exists” and "the denial of 'error exists'" (and the resulting paradox/incoherence). So I’ll restate. In 292 I said:
In this context “errors exist” is shorthand for “propositions in error exist.” It is a statement characterizing some propositions. That statement is also itself a proposition, so it therefore potentially refers to itself. That self-reference accounts for the paradox that arises upon asserting that “errors exist” is in error, a paradox that tells us nothing about the world, nor about “self” for that matter.
The denial of “errors exist” results in a paradox due to self-reference. KF agrees agrees that the denial of “errors exist” results in paradox due to self-reference:
The denial, ~ E = “it is an error to assert E,” as it turns out IS self referential and thus incoherent; as it is an error as already shown.
But StephenB denies that self-reference is present at all:
Error exists is a proposition about propositions. It doesn’t refer to itself. It refers to other propositions. It isn’t self-referential.
Unless StephenB wishes to argue both that "error exists" is not self-referential and that the denial of "error exists" IS self-referential thus incoherent/paradoxical, KF and SB disagree on the self-referential root of the paradox of "error exits." Thus evaporates the "self-evidence" of the implications of "error exists" and of attempting denial of same.Reciprocating Bill
December 6, 2013
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PS: No civilised country holds that soldiers on the other side are automatically murderers -- there are such things as laws of war and war crimes. That would lead directly to gross abuse and murder of prisoners of war. And for families who have lost sons, brothers, husbands and fathers on the battlefield, no reasonable person automatically translates that into the soldiers on the other side automatically are murderers. But Boko Haram (usually rendered Western Education is forbidden, but the word there is obviously "books" . . . ) terrorists invading College campuses and murdering 50 students going about the ordinary peaceful business of life are blatantly murderers.kairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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SR:
when it comes to philosophical understanding or emotion or religious truths, not everyone is on the same page
That is correct, and it is also correct for management, politics, medicine, history, social sciences, life sciences, physical sciences etc. We do not tell truth or good reasoning by seeing who holds 51% of the vote, or the bigger guns, or controls the mikes for news and views, or the staffing of class-rooms and uni lecture halls etc. . . . look at the vid clip with Plato's Cave in the OP above. (Abraham Lincoln aptly said you can fool all the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time but not all the people all of the time. Jesus, that wisdom is justified by her children, and that the eye is the lamp of the body so if they are good you will be full of light but if they are bad, you will be full of darkness. He then said something astonishing: if the light in you is darkness, how great is your darkness. Just think about someone in a state where he inverts light and darkness, imagining that darkness is light and what is actually light, darkness. No wonder he warned some that they were in a state where, because he was telling them the truth they could not bear to hear or understand what he was saying.) It is precisely to move beyond a politicised clash of opinions that we need to attend to plumbline principles, comparative difficulties on foundational ideas, and warranted, credible facts. Some of these are self-evident truths, as described in the above. In our civilisation today, we need to begin thinking seriously about worldview foundations, starting with first principles of right reason and yes moral yardsticks also. Pardon me for this, but I think it needful to suggest you take a glance here on, on worldview foundations -- just as a stimulus for thought. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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Hi KF @ 340, It is true that when it comes to mathematics or materials, we have a set rule and hence can conceive something as truth, but when it comes to philosophical understanding or emotion or religious truths, not everyone is on the same page. As I pointed out earlier, a terrorist believes that the God he believes in says his act of terror is correct and true. That same act is heinous for everyone else. For a soldier the act of killing enemy is correct and morally right. His truth is that he is defending his country. But for the mother or wife of the soldier who is killed, the truth is very different - the enemy soldier is a murderer.selvaRajan
December 6, 2013
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SR: I note:
There is no absolute truth for everyone
Do you see the problem at the outset? You have asserted an absolute claim attempting to deny such. More seriously, this illustrates the problem that there are some things that are true on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. As a baby step, kindly start with: 2 + 3 = 5 || + ||| = ||||| Then, try that a rock has neither beliefs nor dreams so it cannot be deluded that it is conscious. We on the other hand, even if we are mistaken about much, cannot be mistaken of the fact that we [as the perceiving individuals sensing our own situation] are conscious, self aware beings. That is an example of an objective, self-evident truth of consciousness. On moral self evident truths, kindly cf above in the OP and the current exchange with MF. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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MF: Subjectivity is not the opposite of objectivity -- we are first and foremost conscious, self aware thinking reasoning subjects, and that is a lesson of how we have to think to avert falling into an infinite cascade of delusional Plato's Caves. There is no more reason to doubt that we as correctly sense a moral order as that we sense a physical one. Of course there are complexities that become debatable and even controversial, but that holds for both, as the history of physics so tellingly shows. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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#337 #selvaRajan I have to say I disagree. I think there are plenty of subjects where this is absolute objective truth although it may be hard to know it. I just don't this includes moral judgements.Mark Frank
December 6, 2013
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KF, There is no absolute truth for everyone. There may be some examples of absolute moral truth but most situations are nebulous, so truth can be only a Venn diagram wherein the truth and false hood can be represented as |A U B| = |A|+|B|+ |A ∩ B| About Dr.Dawkin's quote - I am sure Dr.Dawkin's wasn't thinking about 'killing human babies example' when he talked about how Nature is indifferent. He would have meant the infanticide seen in other species. Of course unless someone asks him directly, we wouldn't know what his quote meant, so there is no point attributing evil designs and dehumanizing him.selvaRajan
December 6, 2013
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KF - there seems to be confusion here. I am not denying that true that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. And I accept that widespread denial of this would lead to chaotic and extremely unpleasant society. So of course I would not place that advertisement in the paper because I do not agree with it. I agree with your statement MY 1 (using your criterion of self-evident - denial leads to chaotic absurdity) All I am saying is that all of this is compatible with the statement being a subjective one grounded in massively widespread, but subjective, human agreement on what is wrong. I support my case with examples of other clearly subjective statements which if there was widespread denial would lead to a chaotic and extremely unpleasant society. As far as I can see you have not attempted to address this argument but just repeated what I have agreed to.Mark Frank
December 6, 2013
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MF: 1: The only required ontological status for error is the same as that for the natural numbers and the members of that set. 2: I simply suggest the experiment of publishing a column or advert in your local newspaper that asserts the following denials EXPLICITLY:
(a) it is NEITHER Self-Evident NOR True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. (b) if such is in progress we are NOT duty-bound to intervene to save the child
3: I doubt that such will be publishable, but I note by contrast how the following -- which DIRECTLY implies the above -- was published in Sci Am by the dean of the New Atheists:
Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [--> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [--> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
4: Obviously, one can get away with a lot more that is implied by something dressed up in a lab coat, than one can get away with directly saying it. But the subtler approach is the more dangerous as it misleads and erodes resistance to nihilist might makes 'right' folly. (Over time, if people are beguiled, manipulation makes 'right,' until we find ourselves tumbling over the cliff into an abyss of nihilistic chaos and end up begging the tyrants waiting in the wings to take over.) 5: That we would practically end in absurdity -- more likely a morass of deadly blood feuds as men act with lethal force to protect their loved ones and close family relations [as I discussed earlier], which leads to tyranny to restore a semblance of order. But it is not the real test, it is an historically anchored observation on the alternative to sound government. If we allow such to happen again, we are fools. And that tranping noise you hear is the march of folly beginning. 6: The issue of absurdity comes long before such is manifest. The issue is that we have a major mental faculty that perceives moral worth and value, conscience. Evolutionary materialism and fellow traveller ideologies end up writing off conscience and its testimony to the binding nature of ought as delusions [however socially useful], genetically and or socio-psychologically programmed in, that's it. 7: This, as I point out, is a general delusion absurdity. There are no firewalls in the mind and once the bull of general delusion is let loose, the china will shatter and fly everywhere. We undermine judgement, rationality, perceptions, communication as suspect to be delusional in an infinite regress of Plato's Cave worlds. There is just no stopping the chain. 8: In short -- yet again -- we see modernist hyperskeptical materialism-driven or influenced thought burning down the mind. If evo mat and its fellow travellers were assumed true, man would be dead. 9: So, absurdity. WJM's warning on burning down the house to try to roast a pig follows:
If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.
10: Instead, we have very good reason to accept that the testimony of conscience is as good as that of eyes, ears and common good sense generally. Reject it on a general basis and absurdity results leading to chaos if we were to actually try the experiment. Yes, we face mistakes and possibility of error, but we have every good reason to accept the main testimony of such senses and good sense. 11: In which context MY #1 and its corollary highlight the core worth and value of our fellow human being that decisively shapes sound, objective moral thought. I again cite Locke and Hooker on the point that launched modern liberty and democracy:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
KF PS: Onlookers, observe how there is no direct denial of MY #1 or Hooker's point.kairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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KF Although this business of the ontological status errors is fascinating (hence my #329), as I understand it, its main purpose in your OP is to establish that there are such things as self-evident truths. I accept that there are assertions which if denied lead to absurdity. To my mind there is a more significant problem in your OP, which I raised before but it got lost in all the error debate. It turns on your paragraph:
By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.
It may well be that if most people denied that killing children for pleasure is wrong, it would lead to a chaotically destructive society. This is an empirical hypothesis, to be proved or falsified by observation as far as possible, but a priori it seems very plausible. However, that does not in any way demonstrate that “killing children for pleasure is wrong” is an objective truth.  There are many clearly subjective assertions which if denied by most people would very likely lead to chaotic destruction. For example – “having children is a joy”. If pretty much everyone sincerely denied that, then we would cease to procreate - but it is a matter of opinion and there are a few people who have the opposite view - but not enough to lead to absurdity. Other subjective assertions that if denied would lead to this type of absurdity include: * I approve of people communicating with each other * The advancement of knowledge is a valuable thing What I cannot find in any of your writing is an attempt to show why self-evident (in the sense of leading to absurdity if denied) entails objectivity.Mark Frank
December 6, 2013
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F/N 2: NOTICE, I hereby acknowledge my accession to Parson's rehabilitation of the classic square, on the charitable and reasonable interpretation of the O form, implying that for this context, All S is P does include that there is at least one x in S but not every S is P includes that there is no x at all in S to be or not be a P . . . i.e. affirmatives have existential import but negations do not. I thank RB for triggering me to examine this point. Of course, I continue to accept the modern quantifications and view the classic one as including an implicit rider as noted, the modern view being extensible to capture the classical. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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F/N: This is square of opposition stuff in the end. E is a case of I, at least one x is R, and ~E is a case of O, no entity is R, it is not just that there are some things that are not error but an assertion that there are no errors whatsoever, for whatever reason . . . including of course the notion that error is a non existent category. The two are properly and fully contradictory, as the assertion E (there is at least one error) has existential import so can be contradicted by a denial of there being errors at all (~E).kairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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PPS: Look again at 313, on its direct and plain meaning which you tried to turn into the opposite: "E = “error exists” is known to be factually true. It is not self referential and incoherent." It is true that in general, propositions MAY refer to themselves directly or implicitly. But that is not always the case. And in the particular case we have in view, "Error exists" will be true if there is a single case of error -- massively already known to be factually so. Also, as I stated it, the matter at stake is about a joint property self referential AND incoherent, so even if self referential but not self contradictory then not a vicious circle. . . . all that would be at stake is that SB and I would be in error on whether or not it is self referential, which would not entail that E is self contradictory, as not all self referential propositions are false. And as it is, it is not self-referential -- it contains no internal reference to its own status as true or false. By contrast, the denial, in effect, it is an error to assert E, IS self-referential because it tries to rule the whole set of errors empty. In effect it denies that any propositions are false, making it self referential. The direct, E, leaves that possibility open, without any import that it itself is false or must be true -- this is not, necessarily, error exists, but simply, error does as a matter of fact exist. And as just seen, ~E directly provides an example of error so refuting itself.kairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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RB: I shekkin me poor aching haid, mon. I find it sad that you cannot simply and straightforwardly admit that you overlooked the word "not" in my 313 [I admit, I did not put it in block caps, I did not expect it to be a problem . . . ], and then triumphalistically -- and mistakenly -- accused SB and I of being in hopeless mutual contradiction. As for the side track, it has been anticipated. In effect ~ E is the assertion that the statement E is false, itself an error. That is -- as 313 states, it is an ERROR to assert E. Where E = Error exists. In simple sets language, E asserts there is at least one x such that x is an error (and emphasis on existence is crucial, the existential quantifier asserts that at least one thing of interest exists). ~E denies this, it is saying the set that collects errors -- if any can be found, is empty. This BTW would have to include that ~E is itself not false to reality, i.e. ~E is self-referential, notoriously a key vulnerability in reasoning. We know from vast factual experience that errors do exist (so we are highly confident ~E is false), but we are fishing for bigger fish. Namely, self-evidence. To get there, we observe that E and ~E intend to refer to actual states of affairs, are mutually exclusive, and are exhaustive of possibilities -- ~E requires no x to exist, and should a single x exist E is so, E and ~E are a partition of possibilities such that we have {E XOR ~E} = 1, both cannot be true and both cannot be false, it is one or else the other. AUT not VEL, to use Latin. (Our legalistic AND/OR, the inclusive OR, is a rendering of VEL. AUT is the exclusive or famous for its use in the half-adder digital circuit.) That means that when we form the conjunction {E AND ~E} it must be false: {E AND ~E} = 0 . . . and false in a way that is consistent with {E XOR ~E} = 1 That immediately means that:
(i) we have a successful candidate to be an x, (ii) the set that collects errors (if any) is non-empty (iii) the proposition that asserts this set to be empty is false, i.e. _____________________________ (iv) CONCLUSION I: ~E is false and this is directly connected to its self-referential character, and so also (v) CONCLUSION II: E is true and is undeniably true as its denial immediately provides an instance of error, vindicating its truth. (vi) GRAND CONCLUSION: E is undeniably certain and self-evidently true on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. Here, by reduction of ~E to self referential self contradiction.
This is rather a taking of a sledgehammer to crack a peanut, but it seems necessary in the teeth of determined refusal to acknowledge the obvious. And on the talking point that the term "error: is a reification, the fact as shown that all that is needed is to translate into the terms of sets should suffice to show its want of substance. Sets are abstractions that literally lie at the foundation of mathematics. Number is a property of sets that gives rise to another set of abstractions, the natural numbers that allow us to assign cardinality and ordinality. The concept, error is every inch as relevant and applicable as number, a property of failing to accurately refer or correctly function or the like. It is highly significant that we see adherents of evolutionary materialism and/or its fellow travellers running into trouble with abstractions. For, abstractions are the very stuff of information, thought, knowledge, reasoning, quantification, modelling, theorising, and truth. That is, evo mat and its fellow travellers are found in the lists undermining rational thought -- again. KF PS: And no, there is no point in trying to go off on side tracks when the direct demonstration of the main point can be made: self-evident truth is real, and relevant as a plumbline. It is even more revealing to notice the struggles with moral self evident truths such as MY #1. I wonder if any objector will prove willing to step up to the plate and provide a draft for the column in denial of MY #1, also addressing Dawkins' 1995 Sci Am piece that directly implies the denial of MY #1. Failing that, it is a case of no contest.kairosfocus
December 6, 2013
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I still think there is an interesting debate here about the nature of some types of abstract entities (SB appears to find it a sore subject and doesn't wants to participate - which is fine - but others may be interested). I think I can make my concern clearer if I talk about propositions rather than errors - what does it mean (if anything) to say propositions exist or don't exist. It is essentially the same concern. Consider the case of unicorns. To prove they exist you look for things meeting a certain description. If you find them they exist. If you repeatedly failed to find them you conclude they don't exist. How do you prove if a proposition exists? I can only think of two possibilities. One route is to see if anyone has actually asserted or believed that proposition. If they have it exists. If they haven't then it doesn't. To say the proposition exists is a rather odd way of expressing it, but it is meaningful and somewhat analogous to the unicorns. The other is to say that all propositions that can be described exist. Just describing the proposition proves it exists. But then how could a proposition not exist? In the case of the unicorn we have a description and want to see if anything fulfils it. In the case of a proposition we just have the description. I would say the same holds of factual errors which are just those propositions which happen to be false.Mark Frank
December 5, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
Stephen denies that any self-reference is present. No self-referential paradox arises upon the denial of “propositions in error exist.”
Show me where I address "the denial of propositions in error exist." Give me the post number and the quote. Reciprocating Bill
Obviously, the consequences of the denial of the proposition “errors exist” do not exemplify “self-evidence,” given that even the two of you disagree on the the key import of that denial.
Show me where I address "the denial" of the proposition that errors exist. Give me the post number and the quote.StephenB
December 5, 2013
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KF:
RB seems to have failed to read carefully, and so has misrepresented what I stated at 313.
I'll make this more clear. I argued:
In this context “errors exist” is shorthand for “propositions in error exist.” It is a statement characterizing some propositions. That statement is also itself a proposition, so it therefore potentially refers to itself. That self-reference accounts for the paradox that arises upon asserting that “errors exist” is in error, a paradox that tells us nothing about the world, nor about “self” for that matter.
Here I attributed to self-reference the paradox that arises upon asserting that the proposition “propositions in error exist” is itself in error. SB, in direct response to the above:
Let me make this easier for you. Error exists is a proposition about propositions. It doesn’t refer to itself. It refers to other propositions. It isn’t self-referential.
Stephen denies that any self-reference is present. No self-referential paradox arises upon the denial of "propositions in error exist." KF:
At first level, E = “error exists” is known to be factually true. It is not self referential and incoherent. The denial, ~ E = “it is an error to assert E,” as it turns out IS self referential and thus incoherent; as it is an error as already shown.
Now KF asserts that the denial of "error exists" IS in fact self-referential and thus incoherent. As it turns out. My conclusion, slightly modified for clarity: KF and I say that denial results in self-referential paradox/incoherence. For KF, this results in a reductio that makes his case. Yet SB denies that self-reference is present at all. Obviously, the consequences of the denial of the proposition “errors exist” do not exemplify “self-evidence,” given that even the two of you disagree on the the key import of that denial. Which stands.Reciprocating Bill
December 5, 2013
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RB: 1: Are you going to correct your misrepresentaiton of me in 318 above? 2: Are you going to acknowledge that error can properly denote the set that collects errors (if any exist), and so is not subject to the accusation of reification no more than the sets that denote the abstract property we call number, from { } --> 0, to {0} --> 1 to {0,1} --> 2 etc? [I just gave you a successor operation approach to constructing N, the set that collects the natural numbers.] 3: Failing that, do you consider numbers to be reification, and if so/not, why? (What then are we to make of mathematics and its application to the real world and to abstract thought.) 4: Above, UB pointed out that long before there were humans, cells had mechanisms for detecting and addressing errors in masking proteins etc. This underscores how chance processes, breakdowns and the like create errors independent of the existence of human beings. What are you going to say tot he point that errors exist in such contexts, leading to things such as cancer? 5: In addition, the proposition E, error exists implies the existence of its antithesis ~E. It can be shown by conjunction that {E AND ~E} = 0, is a necessary error, so the set that collects errors is necessarily non empty. Kindly explain how accusations of reification allow this to be ignored, apart form act6ing as a rhetorical squid-ink cloud behind which the issue in the main can be evaded? ______________ Bottomline: id this is how objectors to design thought object to an easily demonstrated case of self-evident -- necessarily so -- truth, what does that say on their attitude to scientific arguments which by the inevitable nature of induction cannot attain to such necessity? Are we not then plainly dealing with the entrenched, widespread fallacy of the ideologised, closed mind locked into a lab coat clad evolutionary materialist frame of thought for motives unrelated to actual merit and warrant? KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
You attribute to the abstraction “Error” (as abstracted across and distinct from “errors”) reality that remains unjustified. That is reification.
From Wikipeda: "Reification (also known as concretism, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event, or physical entity.[1][2] In other words, it is the error of treating as a concrete thing something which is not concrete, but merely an idea." Now show me how I used the word "error" as if were a concrete, physical entituy, or how I treated an abstract entity (error) as something that was concrete and not merely an idea. Show me how I committed the error of "misplaced concreteness."StephenB
December 5, 2013
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KF @ 313,
Would you be willing to write and publish a column in your local newspaper over your name and photo, defending the contrary: (a)it is NEITHER Self-Evident NOR True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. (b) if such is in progress we are NOT duty-bound to intervene to save the child Why or why not?
Of course not! See my comment @73, @242: SR@73
What ever religion or whatever law is followed, no jury in the world will ever acquit anyone who kills a baby. Period.
SR@242
you are welcome :-) Frankly, I find a lot of comments on this thread irrational and shocking, chief among them (implied) – ‘Killing babies is okay’
because it is self evident, absolute truth, but that is not the case with every situation in life. TSErik@315,
However, these subjective thoughts are reactions to the observed red light. The light exists independent of the subjective interpretations.
It is not so easy. God has not been seen directly, so can He be independent of subjective interpretation? Any way you look at it, truth is subjective: 1. What exist in mind need not exist in reality -’ For a child, Monster under bed exists‘ 2. What exist in reality can not be seen by all – ‘Everyday Sun exists for some, ceases to exist for others’ 3. What exist for all doesn’t exist for some – ‘Red color doesn't exist for Color blind’ 4. What exist in reality might not be seen as reality – Compound eye of Fly sees reality in multiple images not as a single image. The whole point is truth cannot be absolute in all situations. It depends on various variables.selvaRajan
December 5, 2013
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Is it really necessary for me to explain the meaning of the word “reify” to you once again?
Wikipedia (and many others): "Reification generally refers to making something real, bringing something into being, or making something concrete, absent of evidence." You attribute to the abstraction "Error" (as abstracted across and distinct from "errors") reality that remains unjustified. That is reification. So, no, I don't need any explanation.Reciprocating Bill
December 5, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
“Error exists” reflects a reification of “error” that needs justification.
Is it really necessary for me to explain the meaning of the word "reify" to you once again?StephenB
December 5, 2013
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Mark Frank:
I am sorry if you think what I am doing is tactics. I know that you essentially treat debate as competition and put great store on not giving an inch. Some of us don’t think of it quite that way. There is a bit of difference in the comprehensibility of: “Error exists” and “People make errors”
I am sorry Mark. I simply do not understand what you are saying. You might think that I am using your "I don't understand" tactic just to avoid argument, but that isn't the case. Could you define the words "debate" and "competition" for me. Are you saying that debates and competitions do not require people. You said nothing about people at all. I have never heard of a debate or competition without people. So I really don't know what you mean by those words. Much less would I know what you meant if you said "debates exist in the world of public discourse."StephenB
December 5, 2013
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MF: It is appropriate to focus on the error itself, the proposition error exists referring to the situation where the set that collects errors is non-empty. And BTW UB reminds us of cellular error detection and correction techniques that obviously are there long before we come to people. Errors can come about by accident or breakdown of systems or by noise and interference, so they are much wider than people making errors. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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F/N: Here we go again:
KF, 313: >>At first level, E = “error exists” is known to be factually true. It is not self referential and incoherent. The denial, ~ E = “it is an error to assert E,” as it turns out IS self referential and thus incoherent; as it is an error as already shown.>> RB, 318: >> SB denies that “errors exist” is self-referential and incoherent. KF States that it is. Obviously, the implications of “errors exist” are not subject to obvious, undeniable “self-evidence” given that even the two of you disagree on the propositions fundamental meaning and significance.>> [BTW, observe that at 316, he cites what I said at 313, so something is really funny here.]
RB seems to have failed to read carefully, and so has misrepresented what I stated at 313. Notice, I also went on to show how the DENIAL that error exists is self-referential and incoherent . . . which from the beginning is part of the reduction to absurdity on attempted denial. I hope RB will acknowledge his error. This one cannot be wriggled out of so easily. I trust, too, that if the resident nihilists at various fever swamp sites try to make something out of such a blunder, others will point out the error of their ways. But then they are making up how I have allegedly gone to their sites within the past several months and engaged in arguments there when I have done nothing of the sort. (I just hope there has not been an identity theft game going on.) KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2013
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SB denies that "errors exist" is self-referential and incoherent. KF States that it is. Obviously, the implications of "errors exist" are not subject to obvious, undeniable "self-evidence" given that even the two of you disagree on the propositions fundamental meaning and significance.Reciprocating Bill
December 5, 2013
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#314 SB I am sorry if you think what I am doing is tactics. I know that you essentially treat debate as competition and put great store on not giving an inch. Some of us don't think of it quite that way. There is a bit of difference in the comprehensibility of: "Error exists" and "People make errors" Try stopping strangers in the street and asking which of the two they understand! Anyhow it all hangs on: " false ideas, concepts, propositions, and philosophies exist in the realm of abstract realities. Concepts can be analyzed without reference to processes or people." But do they exist without reference to people? You seemed to imply that people were required when I asked what it would mean for an error not to exist and you replied:
An error (as defined) would not exist in a given context if everyone understood and accepted the truth.
which seems to imply that errors only exist if someone holds the false ideas, concepts, propositions, or philosophy.Mark Frank
December 5, 2013
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KF:
At first level, E = “error exists” is known to be factually true. It is not self referential and incoherent.
No one here has denied that “errors exists.” People commit errors all the time. “Error exists” reflects a reification of “error” that needs justification.
The denial, ~ E = “it is an error to assert E,” as it turns out IS self referential and thus incoherent
That is also correct. As incoherent and self-referential it says nothing about the world. And as incoherent and self-referential it cannot support the reification of “errors” into “error,” nor the reality of “Truth.” Now we’re getting somewhere.Reciprocating Bill
December 5, 2013
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