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progflow

Darwinism from an informatics point of view

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progflowAs everyone knows, life in all its countless instances (organisms) involves internal instructions, as well as processors that run them. Without these instructions, no organism would be able to originate in the first place, let alone develop or survive. The discovery of these instructions – contained in DNA/RNA macromolecules and the molecular machinery that reads and writes them in biological cells – has been hailed as one of the greatest theoretical and experimental breakthroughs of the 20th century. The ID movement claims that these scientific findings have only served to highlight the weaknesses and inconsistencies of the neo-Darwinian theory of macro-evolution, according to which all species have evolved from a common ancestor, as a result of random mutation and natural selection.

The discovery of complex information processing in biology invites the question of whether there are any significant similarities between bio-informatics and the artificial informatics of computers, i.e. so-called computer science. Given that in both fields information has to be managed and processed, some similarities must of course exist. In this post, I will attempt to outline some conclusions on this topic, which lead us inexorably to the conclusion that Darwinian theory is incapable in principle of explaining the mystery of the origin of life and of species, as it claims to do.

When we consider the development of organisms and their complex internal organs and biological systems, we can easily see that these developmental sequences – and here I am talking about both ontogenetic and phylogenetic sequences – must involve complex programs, which embody decision logic about what has to be assembled, and also when and where it should be assembled. In other words, the right things need to be put in the right place at the right time, according to a precise schedule which is in some respects even more rigorous than schedules used in human engineering. For example, the development of an embryo is a process whose countless steps need to be choreographed in their most minute details by a program that is oriented towards the final result. Any error in the execution of this program may have severely deleterious consequences. The same thing can be said regarding the alleged macroevolution of new kinds of organs or even new body plans.

Given that biology and informatics both make use of programs, it will be necessary for me to say a few things about computer programming, in order to explain as clearly as possible exactly what a program is. I know that a lot of UD readers are software developers, so the points I will be making below will be very obvious to them. However, I’ll have to ask them to bear with me, as some of our readers are laypeople in these fields.

In order to process information – i.e. create software – it is necessary to create data and programs. Data is passive information: it cannot change or decide anything by itself. For example, let’s say I have a string variable (called $a) and I set it to contain the value “something” – or maybe I have a numeric variable $b which I set to contain the value 3.14. In these cases, I am neither specifying what should be done with the set values, nor when it should be done. Hence if I were to confine my work as a programmer to simply declaring the values of passive data, I would never be able to actively run a program or control any of its processes. Putting it another way: a program, in its simplest concept, is a blueprint specifying the reiteration of basic decision structures, about what to do and when to do it. A program must specify conditions and actions forming a control structure:

conditions (when to do it)
{

actions (what to do)

}

In other words, a program is active information. Since it determines conditions and actions, it has to be able to decide and organize things, and it also has to be able to create and change data. A program implies a decision hierarchy – in a word, a “logic”. It states what to do, when certain particular conditions arise. Once a program is designed, its execution by a processor can be used to control data and processes of any kind.

The simple structure described above can be repeated many times and can also be nested to create very complex structures with multiple nesting layers, such as the following example, with three nesting levels (the indentations and carriage returns have been inserted to help the reader understand the program flow, but are irrelevant per se at the level of machine code):

conditions
{

actions
conditions;
{

actions;
conditions;
{

actions;
conditions;
{

actions;

}

}

}

}

Another important concept of programming is that of the sub-function or sub-routine:

function
{

}

The main program can reference and run a sub-function as follows:

conditions
{

actions
&function

}

where “&” is the symbol for referencing.

A sub-routine is a sub-program (or “child” program) of the parent program (usually called “main”) that invokes it, which can be referenced (i.e. used indirectly, thanks to a pointer that points to it). Two important things to note about sub-functions are that they work only if they exist somewhere within the software (a very obvious point) and that they are “called” by the main program. In other words, even if we have entire libraries of sub-functions, they will be useless if they are never called: they will be “dormant software”. Thus in a sense, dormant sub-functions constitute passive information. They are passive because they still require a caller that can run them. A sub-function which is never called does absolutely nothing.

From another point of view, programming can be defined as whatever implements control of a process. Since – as Michel Behe says – the fundamental problem of biochemistry and molecular biology (and, in the final analysis, of systems biology) is the problem of control, it follows that programming is indispensable in biology, where countless complex and concurrent processes are involved. Because multiple processes are running at the same time in biological systems – a property that scientists refer to as concurrency – there must be some higher level of direction that governs them all.

It should be noted that the conclusions obtained above hold quite independently of whether an organism’s biological instructions are completely contained within its genome, or only partially. There are many (and I would count myself among them) who suspect that the genome, by itself, does not contain enough information to account for the overall biological complexity of an organism. However one thing is certain: the assembly instructions of living beings must exist somewhere, and the science of generating instructions (computer science) can help us understand their organization and fabrication.

Modern evolutionary theory proposes several unguided mechanisms in order to explain the alleged global macroevolution of species from a single common ancestor: random genetic mutations, sexual genetic recombination, horizontal gene transfer, gene duplication, genetic drift, and so on. According to evolutionary theory, the output of all of these blind processes is subsequently processed (or filtered) by natural selection, which allows only the fittest to survive and reproduce. However, as we will see below, not one of these processes is capable of generating programs. Hence they are also incapable of creating new organs, new body plans, or even new species.

The concept of the gene is fundamental to evolutionary theory in particular, and to genetics and biology in general. Despite its importance, we are still a long way from a clear definition of what a gene is. From the old definition of “recipe for a protein” to the new definition of “functional unit of the genome,” the concept of gene has evolved to the point where some researchers now openly declare that “a gene is a unit of both structure and function, whose exact meaning and boundaries are defined by the scientist in relation to the experiment he or she is doing.” In practice, this means that a gene is whatever a particular scientist has in mind when he/she is doing a particular experiment.

The argument which I am putting forward here cuts through these definitional controversies, because from my informatics-based perspective there are really only two possibilities, which can be summarized as follows: either (a) genes are data (which corresponds to the above old definition of a gene); or (b) genes are functions (which corresponds to the new definition). The key point to understand here is that the development of new organs or body-plans (macroevolution) necessarily involves new decision logic, i.e. new hierarchies of nested control structures. Specifically, the architectural complexity (at the system level) of new organs or body-plans and their embryogenesis involves assembly instructions which require advanced-level control, and hence advanced programming.

Let’s suppose that the first option is correct, and that genes are data. In this case, it can easily be demonstrated that point random mutations, sexual recombination, horizontal gene transfer and data duplication are all incapable of creating the hierarchical decision logic of the main program. In fact, data is what the main program elaborates. Data is passive, while the program is active. What is passive cannot create what is active. This is just as true for intelligently designed data as it is for the data upon which the random operations of Darwinian evolution are applied.

We can illustrate this point from another perspective, by using the analogy of the bricks in a building. If genes are data containing only “recipes for proteins,” and proteins are the “bricks” of the organism “building,” then it is obvious that genes/bricks (and the random Darwinian operations performed upon them) cannot account for the construction and assembly of the organism/building – that is, the set of rules and instructions specifying the way in which the various bricks have to assemble together, in order to yield the unity of a complete system. The building construction metaphor also helps us understand why different organisms can have almost the same genetic patrimony. Just as the same bricks can be used to construct entirely different buildings, the same genes can be used to develop entirely different organisms. In other words, in both biology and architecture, what matters are not the basic building blocks, but rather the higher-level instructions which operate upon them.

Now let’s consider the second alternative, which is that genes are equivalent to software sub-functions. This is quite a generous assumption for evolutionists to make, because it implies that genes possess their own internal decision logic, without explaining how they acquired it. In reality, the so-called “regulatory regions” of genes probably don’t warrant being described as true algorithms. But even if genes were the equivalent of software functions, then once again, random mutations, sexual recombination, horizontal gene transfer and duplication of functions would still be incapable of creating hierarchical decision logic. Why not? Because the decision logic contained in the main program is what invokes the functions (by referencing them). Just as a hammer or a drill cannot create a carpenter, the above operations on functions are incapable of creating their user.

Let us note in passing that the classic evolutionist objection that a mutation involving only a few bits (or even a single bit) is capable of triggering major changes (evolutionists typically cite homeobox genes that control some configurations of the body plan, etc.) contains another misunderstanding. For the active information for these changes still has to exist somewhere, and it must be as large as the changes require it to be. It is true that a programmer can write a very short “wrapper program” to trigger large changes, but that doesn’t mean that the changes themselves require only a little information to specify. For example, I can write a short piece of code which I choose to run on my computer – say, a word processor or a chess program. This code is a few bits long, but the word processor and the chess program are really large programs. All the function does is point to or reference them. However, the function doesn’t create the active information contained in the word processor or chess program software; rather, it simply switches control between the two. Hence there is no free-lunch creation of information whatsoever here.

Leaving aside the problems associated with defining what a gene is, it can still be shown that the random processes which evolutionary theory claims are capable of generating biological complexity, simply don’t work. They don’t work because they are, by their very nature, incapable of generating the top-down functional hierarchy of nested decision structures that is responsible for making the whole system. Since this objection to the adequacy of random processes is an in-principle objection, it is useless for evolutionists to attempt to counter it by resorting to vast amounts of time or huge probabilistic resources. The fundamental problem of Darwinism is that the greater cannot come from the less.

To sum up: Darwinism, from an informatics point of view, has absolutely zero credibility. This explains, among other things, why so many computer programmers who are interested in the ID/evolution debate are on the ID side. In their own job they have never seen a single bit of software arise gratis. Rather they have to create, bit by bit, the active information of the software applications they develop. These people are justifiably perplexed when they encounter the evolutionist claim that God did not have to write a single line of code, because biological complexity (which is far greater than any computer software) arose naturalistically. “Why no work for Him and so much work for me?” they may ask. In this post, I hope I have helped explain that God, also in this case, expects far less from us than what He Himself did and does.

Comments
Hi, KF! It's a pleasure to be here again with old friends. Regarding hormones and cytokines, I agree with you that they are signals, rather than proper messages, but my point is that they behave, in a way, like pointers in a program, being able to activate the right target in the right cell. And another point is that the signaling molecule has nothing to do with the final effect. It is just "recognized" by a receptor, which then again, through indirect pathways, elicits the final response. I don't know if the ability of the receptor to recognize a specific biochemical pattern, and to couple that recognition to a complex response with a clear final purpose, can be considered a code or not, but for a practical man like me it smells of intelligent programming as much as an explicit code.gpuccio
May 20, 2010
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JT: I appreciate your reflections. Anyway, form my point of view, it's a tenant of my experience that there is consciousness and intelligence in human beings. Faith has nothing to do with that. Just to repeat what should be obvious, the existence of consciousness in myself is a direct perception, absolutely undeniable, and is the basis for eny other experience of reality I can have. The existence of a similar experience in other human beings, instead, is an inference. But it is an inference shared practically by everybody (except maybe solipsists), and based on a very sound analogy (other human beings are very similar to me, behave more or less like me, and express in their behaviour all the objective characteristics that my consciousness expresses in my behaviour). So, faith has nothing to do with believing in the existence of consciousness and intelligence: it's just a question of experience and sound inference.gpuccio
May 20, 2010
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R0b #49
The difference between the genetic code and other conceivable codes is that the genetic code is a fitting model of observed biochemical processes, and other codes are not.
Also the informatics codes can be seen as fitting models of observed physical processes (e.g. the digital signals in the electronic circuits of a computer). I don’t see the difference. The key point is that biochemical and physical processes per se can only obey the biochemical and physical laws. Codes are additional high level rules respect the low level laws of physics and chemistry. How can material processes create high level abstract rules when they only obey to low level material laws? It seems here we have a double absurdity: (a) what obeys begins to rule (the opposite of obeying); (b) what works at the low level begins to work at the high level (mismatch of reality layers). From the natural laws can only emerge what is potentially contained in them. Biological and informatics codes are not potentially contained in those laws then there must exist a higher source that imposes these abstract codes upon the material supports. To deny this conclusion is as to claim that a cards deck can create the poker rules by itself.niwrad
May 20, 2010
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@Rob -"When we talk about the creation of the genetic code, we’re really talking about the initiation of those biochemical processes" Can you please clarify exactly what you mean by that? Are you saying that undirected biochemical processes actually create codes?above
May 20, 2010
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Hi GP! Always good to hear from you. And your point on the long range signalling -- note the difference from messaging [So far as I can tell there is no code made up from hormones etc] -- that triggers local genetically coded activity in cells. Onlookers: I find it astonishing in a digitally literate age that when we see 3-letter, 4 state elements, specifying 64 codes; and we see them all used in genes [up to a couple of dialects], and we see that between the table elements there is not an interpolation of half one acid half the next that can go into the AA chain being coded for, people try to deny the existence of a code that is discrete state and symbolic. Moreover, the action of transcription [and splicing] then insertion into the ribosome and sequencing step by step to give an AA chain to produce a functional protein, is plainly algorithmic. When one is forced to find strained objections like we are seeing to the obvious from the just [again] linked video, that is telling. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 20, 2010
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niwrad:
Only intelligence can create codes because symbolism implies abstraction, which is unreachable by material processes for definition.
This sounds very much like arguments that are made by several other ID proponents here, to the effect that material processes can't create abstractions. I'm no metaphysician, but this argument has never worked for me. Every abstraction already exists in some space of abstractions. In the context of these ID discussions, creating an abstraction obviously means imbuing it with a stronger type of existence. That seems to always entail forming something physical (or at least not demonstrably non-physical) on which the abstraction supervenes. The difference between the genetic code and other conceivable codes is that the genetic code is a fitting model of observed biochemical processes, and other codes are not. When we talk about the creation of the genetic code, we're really talking about the initiation of those biochemical processes.R0b
May 20, 2010
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My point about the city would be, what if a human being was like a city, evolving over time without an overall plan in advance, with complex entities coming together and over time become more integrated.JT
May 20, 2010
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45 Yes I understand the we call what people are "intelligent". I guess ID is really and truly committed to the concept of consciousness as the transcendent thing that is integral to everything (though not apparently definable.) I will be off for a while.JT
May 20, 2010
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Only intelligence can create codes because symbolism implies abstraction, which is unreachable by material processes for definition. Now _that_ is circular reasoning!Nakashima
May 20, 2010
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delay = dailyJT
May 20, 2010
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43 gpuccio: Its a tenant of your faith that there is some magic called "intelligence" or conscious intelligence" that make everything work. When a beuracracy is in place, that is a complex series of rules and regulations that govern people's behavior - that set of rules and regualtions is not conscious or intelligent and yet it exhibits profound control. People in their delay lives, organzations in their delay lives function by following various types of complex rules that are context sensitive. either active or inactive depending on the context. I don't think its correct to treat humans by default as embued with some sort of special magic thing you call "intelligence" (rather its all rules and impulses and imperatives and objectives, objectives determined by primal impulses, etc.JT
May 20, 2010
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Nak please read niwrad @ 37 nak as to the fact that Abel is very specific in he is talking of "logical" algorithmic (i.e. abstract encoded) information, that is the line in the sand you must cross to falsify his null hypothesis. Care to call me when your done with that peer review? Cricket Chirping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA In your assertion that functional information was found in the optimum antenna search as per Hazen; Szostak, as I stated before, I accept that a optimal solution to the problem was found within a well defined search space even without measuring the string of Functional Information Bits(FITS). I don't usually deny the obvious as Darwinists constantly do with ID. Yet nak even in this "simulated" example for the finding of functional sequence of information, within a well defined search space, when we look to biology to find a corroborating example of the generation of such a string of functional information bits we are almost always immediately referred to the Nylonase. But in Nylonase we can readily apply a measure, whereas we can't readily apply a measure in a computer, to see if the "gain" in functional information, as per Szostak, for the Nylonase really did increase the inherent algorithmic complexity of the parent bacteria of the Nyloase by comparing the adapted Nylonase to the parent bacteria in a fitness test in the parents native environment, to see if the Nylonase are genuinely more fit (functional) than the parent strain. Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - "The Fitness Test" - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 And as you well know when the nylon is removed from the environment the parent bacteria quickly out compete the nyloase bacteria. Thus the Nylon example fails to falsify the principle of genetic entropy. And even when we look closer at Nylonase we find that it is worse than even the fitness test revealed: Nylon Degradation – Analysis of Genetic Entropy Excerpt: At the phenotypic level, the appearance of nylon degrading bacteria would seem to involve “evolution” of new enzymes and transport systems. However, further molecular analysis of the bacterial transformation reveals mutations resulting in degeneration of pre-existing systems. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria As well nak even though I would be willing to give you the fact that random evolution could possibly generate functional information per Szostak, but not the algorithmic (encoded) information as per Abel, It seems that in biology the search space for finding a solution of functional information is extremely larger than your cherished antenna example from computers: The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds - Douglas Axe - 2010 Excerpt Pg. 11: "Based on analysis of the genomes of 447 bacterial species, the projected number of different domain structures per species averages 991. Comparing this to the number of pathways by which metabolic processes are carried out, which is around 263 for E. coli, provides a rough figure of three or four new domain folds being needed, on average, for every new metabolic pathway. In order to accomplish this successfully, an evolutionary search would need to be capable of locating sequences that amount to anything from one in 10^159 to one in 10^308 possibilities, something the neo-Darwinian model falls short of by a very wide margin." http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1 Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds: Doug Axe: Excerpt: Starting with a weakly functional sequence carrying this signature, clusters of ten side-chains within the fold are replaced randomly, within the boundaries of the signature, and tested for function. The prevalence of low-level function in four such experiments indicates that roughly one in 10^64 signature-consistent sequences forms a working domain. Combined with the estimated prevalence of plausible hydropathic patterns (for any fold) and of relevant folds for particular functions, this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10^77, adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723 and nak this is JUST ONE friggin protein!!! We ain't even got to the part where Darwinists have got to explain the origination of body plans> This inability for the DNA code to account for body plans is also clearly shown by extensive mutation studies to the DNA of different organisms which show "exceedingly rare" major morphological effects from mutations to the DNA code. Stephen Meyer - Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681 The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories - Stephen Meyer"Neo-Darwinism seeks to explain the origin of new information, form, and structure as a result of selection acting on randomly arising variation at a very low level within the biological hierarchy, mainly, within the genetic text. Yet the major morphological innovations depend on a specificity of arrangement at a much higher level of the organizational hierarchy, a level that DNA alone does not determine. Yet if DNA is not wholly responsible for body plan morphogenesis, then DNA sequences can mutate indefinitely, without regard to realistic probabilistic limits, and still not produce a new body plan. Thus, the mechanism of natural selection acting on random mutations in DNA cannot in principle generate novel body plans, including those that first arose in the Cambrian explosion." http://eyedesignbook.com/ch6/eyech6-append-d.html note to toronto you better tell these people that computers ain't got nothing to do with cells before they waste to much money on such hair-brained ideas: Nanoelectronic Transistor Combined With Biological Machine Could Lead To Better Electronics: - Aug. 2009 Excerpt: While modern communication devices rely on electric fields and currents to carry the flow of information, biological systems are much more complex. They use an arsenal of membrane receptors, channels and pumps to control signal transduction that is unmatched by even the most powerful computers. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090811091834.htmbornagain77
May 20, 2010
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JT: In the example of a city we certainly have both centralized control and individual adaptation. There should be no doubt about that. But, you see, we are talking of intelligent individuals who take part in a general environment. Both the central control and the individual adaptation are conscious and intelligent. They don't happen blindly (although sometimes, when we see some of the results, we would like to think so!).gpuccio
May 20, 2010
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Upright BiPed, gpuccio, If I find in a human body, a molecule consisting of an oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, that "is" water, it is not a "symbol" for water, despite the fact that "our" symbol for it, and I really want to stress the "our" part, is "H20".Toronto
May 20, 2010
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[38]:
I just want to stress that in complex multicellular organisms, like humans, there is a long distance biochemical control of body reactions, where some central organ, let’s say an endocrine gland, coordinates an integrated response of different cell types and organs. How does that happen? Through biochemical “messengers”, like hormones and cytokines, which are released in a long distance communication pathway (usually the blood). When the messenger molecule reaches the target cells, it is selectively recognized by cell membrane receptors. Then a very complex and integrated network of intracellular signaling cascades, usually implying many different proteins, transmits the signal from the cell membrane to the nucleus. Here, the signal activates a complex a coordinated response, absolutely specific for the signal itself, which translates into a new asset of transcription factors, and therefore a new transcriptome. In other words, new genes are activated and transcribed, while others may be silenced. In other words, a local sub-routine is activated by the central signal. The transcripted m-RNA is still modulated at the splicing level, and finally the proteins are synthesized (again in the cytoplasm) which will really effect the behavioural responce of the cell to the original signal. Another important point is that the same biochemical signal (the same hormone, for instance) activates different responses in different cell types, but those responses are all perfectly integrated and coordinated to realize a general response of the organism to the stimulus which in the beginnig originated the response of the central endocrine gland (the hormone release). Is that a good example of a coordinate functional response to an environmental stimulus, realized through biochemical symbolic messengers and differentiated and integrated processing machinery?
As far the importance of centralized control - I'm thinking about a city and how incredibly multifaceted it is, and it is also extremely integrated, involving all sorts of complex communication between various parts, various rules and regulations. But you have the airport, garbage collection, the school system, the traffic system, stop lights, hospitals, restaurants, the jail. But you have complex interactions between all these parts. Any new entity that want's to integrate into this system has to do so by adhering to a number of regulations, filing of reports, orchestrated communication and the like. And the question would be to what extent is that entire system centrally controlled or planned in advance, or alternatively to what extent do different pieces come into it of their own accord and either integrate or fail to integrate. And to what extent are new rules being added on the fly without any sort of consideration for their long term impact. And to what extent are entities when integrating into the system blindly following rules currently existing in the system. But I also think about centralized control in totalitarian or Marxist regimes (e.g. Cuba, North Korea) and how invariably that leads to incredible statis and stagnation and lack of flexibility and death.JT
May 20, 2010
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Upright BiPed: I would answer that we can equally see how a PC running Windows is just the sum of electric events where one state changes to another, therefore there is no symbolic nature to it. I believe that symbols, functions, purposes, and in general meanings are perceived only by conscious beings. We, as conscious beings, recognized the meanings and the finalities which have been encoded in mechanistic events by other conscious beings. Machines are not aware of finalities, of functions or of meanings. So, if an extreme materialist really does not believe in consciousness and in its specific modalities, then he will not believe in symbols, meanings or finalities. But he should use the same way of reasoning both for biological information and for human generated information (language, software, and so on). As for me, I do believe in consciousness. I perceive it in myself, so for me it is a fact.gpuccio
May 20, 2010
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gpuccio, The standard response repeatedly given by ID opponents is that we can see mechanically how this signalling network works, therefore there is no symbollic nature to it. Tab A slips into Slot B and thats all there is to it.Upright BiPed
May 20, 2010
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JT #35 My point was that data cannot create the decision logic (main program) that overarches them. It is obvious that data, when are inputted, can change the decisions results. But to change the decisions results is an entirely different thing than to create the decision logic itself. In this sense I said that data are passive, i.e. they don’t create the decision logic from nothing. Since the question at issue was if Darwinian processes acting on data (genes) could create new programs (macroevolution implies new programs) my conclusion was that they cannot. The above note also answers your objection about the carpenter and his tools. The universal drill bit you have imagined could help the job of a carpenter but one cannot claim that it creates the carpenter. Since my whole point is about creation of programs, processors and carpenters my conclusion that they cannot be created by the things upon which they operate remains valid. And since blind evolution pretends exactly to do that (to create bottom-up the entire systems) the conclusion of impossibility applies to evolution too. By the way I never said that "the main program (in an organism) is off limits to random change" as you seem to affirm. It is Darwinism to say that mutations on genes are the driving force of evolution. Obviously all parts of any complex system may change due to entropy and other factors. However these entropic changes never increase the organization of the system, rather they destroy its organization.niwrad
May 20, 2010
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About symbolic realities in cells: Obviously the DNA mass memory in protein coding genes is symbolic: it uses a symbolic code, the genetic code, to carry the information for protein syntesis. That is well known and acknowledged, and I am always surprised that there are still so many darwinists who try to deny it. But that is not the only example. I would like to mention, for instance, that the whole cell signaling process is in essence symbolic. Now I don't want to get trapped in a long philosophical discussion about what symbolic means or does not mean. I just want to stress that in complex multicellular organisms, like humans, there is a long distance biochemical control of body reactions, where some central organ, let's say an endocrine gland, coordinates an integrated response of different cell types and organs. How does that happen? Through biochemical "messengers", like hormones and cytokines, which are released in a long distance communication pathway (usually the blood). When the messenger molecule reaches the target cells, it is selectively recognized by cell membrane receptors. Then a very complex and integrated network of intracellular signaling cascades, usually implying many different proteins, transmits the signal from the cell membrane to the nucleus. Here, the signal activates a complex a coordinated response, absolutely specific for the signal itself, which translates into a new asset of transcription factors, and therefore a new transcriptome. In other words, new genes are activated and transcribed, while others may be silenced. In other words, a local sub-routine is activated by the central signal. The transcripted m-RNA is still modulated at the splicing level, and finally the proteins are synthesized (again in the cytoplasm) which will really effect the behavioural responce of the cell to the original signal. Another important point is that the same biochemical signal (the same hormone, for instance) activates different responses in different cell types, but those responses are all perfectly integrated and coordinated to realize a general response of the organism to the stimulus which in the beginnig originated the response of the central endocrine gland (the hormone release). Is that a good example of a coordinate functional response to an environmental stimulus, realized through biochemical symbolic messengers and differentiated and integrated processing machinery?gpuccio
May 20, 2010
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niwrad @37, The cell process might be analog. If this is the case, no "symbolic" data is necessary. I've been working with embedded real-time systems for 32 years and there are a lot of Evo's here who also have a good handle on what a processor is and how it works. Show me that your analogy is valid by showing me the cell's equivalent architecture that would correspond with the architecture design of human-made computers. If you can't show me support for a level of indirection, you can't claim "symbolic" codes are being used. Notice that I am concerned with the architecture. If the architecture is not the same, then neither is the manner in which the information is stored or used, and your analogy fails.Toronto
May 20, 2010
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Toronto #23, 32 Why symbolic? When we have to store data and instructions (or in general information) we need to use a code. As general definition, a code is a mapping between two realities of different level, the true reality and the correlated reality. The latter is also called a "symbol" of the former. Examples: A language is a code mapping things to words. Words are symbols of things. If I write "tree" I am only pointing to the real tree. I am not showing or offering a real tree. The genetic code maps DNA codons to amino acids. For instance the codon "TAC" corresponds to Tyrosine. This characters string "TAC" is a symbol for Tyrosine. In informatics, according to the ASCII code the string "01000001" represents the character "A". Only intelligence can create codes because symbolism implies abstraction, which is unreachable by material processes for definition. Codes are typical of informatics and appear in biology. Besides they don’t stay in computers and in cells to do nothing. They are used by computers and cellular machinery to accomplish tasks. Just this simple fact proves that the analogy between the two fields is sensible.niwrad
May 20, 2010
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From OP
Data is passive, while the program is active. What is passive cannot create what is active.
A program P does different things based on the data given to it as input. So in that sense the data itself is a program, telling P what to do and what not to do. So this really seems to be a fundamental oversight in the author's conception. This is what is relevant - not the mere fact that he employs a computational analogy (and he doesn't have to point out for example where the equivalent of an ALU in an organism. Also multiple processors - irrelevant. A Turing Machine doesn't have multiple processors. Details of interprocess communication (e.g. semaphores, etc.) irrelevant, doesn't need to be addressed) But also the following from the OP is erroneous:
But even if genes were the equivalent of software functions, then once again, random mutations, sexual recombination, horizontal gene transfer and duplication of functions would still be incapable of creating hierarchical decision logic. Why not? Because the decision logic contained in the main program is what invokes the functions (by referencing them). Just as a hammer or a drill cannot create a carpenter, the above operations on functions are incapable of creating their user
First of all, it wasn't clear to me why "the main program" (in an organism) is off limits to random change. But regardless, even subprograms called by the main program can totally subvert what the main program is doing. Take a unversal program -Its behavior is totally contingent on the behavior of the sub programs it calls. But to use his example of a carpenter and the idea that tools can't create a carpenter: Say you have a carpenter with internal logic like, "Look at screw head. Determine if screw head is phillips or standard. if standard go get standard drill bit and insert into drill otherwise go get phillips drill bit and insert into drill." OK say you have another carpenter who is considerably less adapted, and never attempts to discern the type of screw head but just uses whatever bit is in the drill. And lets say the drill bit changes into some sort of universal drill bit that can handle either phillips head or standard. All of a sudden our unqualified carpenter is now qualified to handle any type of screw head based simply on the tool he was using changing (without any input from him.)JT
May 20, 2010
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bornagain77 @34, With your links, you are simply asserting the same things as niwrad, and making the same analogy. You still haven't shown me the equivalent architecture in a cell which corresponds to that architecture in computers made by humans, to validate your analogy. For instance, if I asserted that since dogs have hearts just like humans do, therefore their circulation systems must work something like ours, that would be an analogy that you might say is flawed. If I responded with a link that asserted the same thing, that would not be enough evidence to convince you my analogy was valid. If instead I supplied you with an x-ray of a dog's heart and one of a human's heart, there's something you could evaluate. Show me that level of evidence for biological processor architecture, not a link to another assertion of the same type.Toronto
May 20, 2010
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toronto @ 32 The Cell - A World Of Complexity Darwin Never Dreamed Of - Donald E. Johnson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4139390 Bioinformatics: The Information in Life - Donald Johnson - video http://vimeo.com/11314902 On a slide in the preceding video, entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that: * the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system; * the specific genetic program (genome) is an application; * the native language has codon-based encryption system; * the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system; * each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome; * codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers; * each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and * in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life. Cells Are Like Robust Computational Systems, - June 2009 Excerpt: Gene regulatory networks in cell nuclei are similar to cloud computing networks, such as Google or Yahoo!, researchers report today in the online journal Molecular Systems Biology. The similarity is that each system keeps working despite the failure of individual components, whether they are master genes or computer processors. ,,,,"We now have reason to think of cells as robust computational devices, employing redundancy in the same way that enables large computing systems, such as Amazon, to keep operating despite the fact that servers routinely fail." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616103205.htmbornagain77
May 20, 2010
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Mr BA^77, What you are adverse to ever mention is that ZERO functional (logical, mathematical, algorithmic, programming) information is generated in finding that optimal solution within that well defined search space. What is this functional information you speak of? Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Seriously, functioning better as an antenna doesn't demonstrate an increase in functional information to you? I thought you liked to use "functional information" in the sense of Hazen, Szostak, et al?Nakashima
May 20, 2010
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JT @28, What we are talking about is the architecture of the "processor" of the information. In other words, does this information processor contain: - what we believe is equivalent to an ALU? - what we believe is equivalent to an instruction decoder? - what we believe is equivalent to a program counter ? - etc. We are not talking about the use or end result of any software we load and execute. niwrad is trying to say that we can see a lot of commonality between the way biology processes information and the way human-made computers process information. I am asking him to show me those common elements, not simply assert, but show me. If he can't, he shouldn't try to draw any conclusions from what appears to be a flawed analogy.Toronto
May 20, 2010
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Nak, here is something for you to listen to as you write up that peer review to falsify Abel' null hypothesis: Cricket Chirping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJAbornagain77
May 20, 2010
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Nak, your antenna example, (that you are so fond of repeating though you have been shown why it fails to generate functional information) is an excellent example of the ability of computers to find an optimal solution within a very well defined search space. Much like Deep Blue's ability to place chess by searching through a well defined search space. What you are adverse to ever mention is that ZERO functional (logical, mathematical, algorithmic, programming) information is generated in finding that optimal solution within that well defined search space. John 1:1 In the beginning was The Word (Logos), of note: the Greek word Logos is the root word from which we get our modern word "logic" Nak if you believe the antenna example generates functional algorithmic information, Please write it up in peer review so as to falsify Abel's null hypothesis: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/agbornagain77
May 20, 2010
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I'm not really addressing the OP. Just for the record the very first thing I noticed was the sharp distinction betwen data and instructions and then Nakashima pointed that out.JT
May 20, 2010
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Well, you probably do agree with that. But if weather simulations for example are not accurate its not because in principle computers are incapable of accurately simulating it. Let's put it this way - I don't of any scientist (at least not any of those who sign those Greenhouse gas accords) who would even for a second entertain the idea that computers in principle are incapable of simulating it adequately. Rather the existing programs are inadequate. But know one's saying you can't accurately model the weather in principle using instructions, memory a processor, etc.JT
May 20, 2010
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