agit-prop, opinion manipulation and well-poisoning games Defending our Civilization Geo-strategic issues Governance & control vs anarchy Politics/policy and origins issues UD Newswatch highlights

UD Live Event from Nov 3, US Election cont’d: BBC — yes the BEEB — on BLM’s Marxist founders, “[We] fought to change history and we won”

Spread the love

Okay, we are looking at the victory lap being taken (a bit prematurely, methinks) by the BLM trio of marxist founders. Here is BEEB:

Black Lives Matter founders: We fought to change history and we won

Published14 hours ago

The year 2020 will be remembered for a lot of things – not least the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement around the world.

The organisation has led huge street rallies and high-profile campaigns against racism and police brutality.

Now the three women who founded the movement have told the BBC they believe it has transformed politics.

“Black people alongside our allies stood up to change the course of history and we won,” said Alicia Garza.

Garza and her BLM co-founders, Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi, spoke as part of the BBC 100 Women Masterclass 2020, a digital live event of masterclasses, big interviews and guests on 30 November.

If you doubted that this is a Marxism-driven, colour-culture revolution push using Critical Race Theory as key ideological wedge, there you have it from the horses’ mouths.

In short, 4th Gen War:

. . . based on colour/cultural revolution insurgency, including dirty form McFaul programme election manipulation:

Okie, Dec 17, I clip from 1333 below, a focal point:

Just remember, given the realities of 4th gen war, there is now no hard border — no specific, momentous declaratory threshold — between

a: information and influence operations [including, too often “education”];

b: politics, law and power balances stratagems, and

c: full bore high kinetics war.

The intent of all three in ruthless hands, subjugation under a new lawless oligarchy, demands that we understand that tri-polar spectrum, and that we determine to stand for a civilisation of truth, right, honour and liberty in the face of its most insidious, treacherous enemies.

H’mm, Dec 15, let’s add in the Overton Window (with hints of Plato’s Parable of the Cave), to help us understand political/policy thinking in light of BATNA points:

Where, we need to ponder the change challenge:

. . . and the Mountains/pillars of influence mapping model:

Where are we drifting to, why and how?

Now, let us continue the already in progress [for four weeks!] live event . . . from here.

First U/D, the Arizona hearing when I can get it up.

Meanwhile, ponder just what is being said now, and what it implies beyond how they would wish it spun, given their admitted Marxism. BREAKING, CONTINUING (AFTER FOUR WEEKS) . . .

U/D1: Arizona hearings:

U/D2: Ms Powell with Mr Dobbs on state of play, a case in VA on the table. Also, even as a restraining order was being debated in a see-saw back-forth, in Fulton County, a Server was taken by a technician on excuse of software update and has disappeared from chain of custody. From CA, a tape has been forwarded to Ms Powell and reveals 550 votes from 270 people, an indication of algorithmic manipulation:

Ms Powell, the entire FBI and Dept of Justice need to be hosed out with Chlorox and firehoses.

F/N: Was the Electoral College simply a way to entrench slavery — merely ramshackle defence of slavery? A discussion on republic vs direct instant effect democracy:

[PREDICTABLY, SADLY, CENSORED]

U/D2, Dec 2, hearings in MI:

U/D3, Dec 2: HT BA77, we now have chain of custody on ballots going into PA by the trailer-load. The ballots seen coming in at wee hours were in similar containers:

U/D4, Dec 2: Spykman’s framework of heartland, rimland and the outer crescent of maritime Islands and continents:

This is the framework for geostrategic analysis. Desperately compressed, c 1904 Mackinder identified that rail, telegraph, telephone etc allowed mobilisation of continental resources in the heart of the Eurasian landmass that would counterweight the maritime powers, i.e. Britain with the US coming up behind. C20 can be viewed as the history of two German grabs and one Russian one, failed. Rimlands are a belt between, coast and near hinterlands. The outer arc is where maritime power and sea trade dominate. Thus, the chief maritime power guarantees global stability.

I have argued as follows c April 2016, the current US 4th gen civil war with global entanglement is a playing out of this picture. Notice the Iranian push, vulture no. 3. No Ko is a wannabe:

U/D5, Dec 2, Ordinary people have their say (and often get smeared by the media dominant narrative — a comment):

Hannity shows ordinary witnesses.Twitter so no YT link.

U/D6, Dec 4: Here is the Oct 2016 video of independent body blackbox voting dot org:

Note, from commented screen captures:

U/D7, Mr Giuliani requests disciplinary action for defamation violation of parliamentary privilege, regarding dismissal of evidence and attacking his professional integrity:

In the course of this he corrects widespread talking points: 3 cases brought not the 39 being talked about. 2,000 affidavits under penalty of law, and we know now of the video of four suitcases of ballots counted after scrutineers were dismissed, being told that counting was over for the night, in GA.

The member signalling intent to dox and harass a witness by demanding even her maiden name should take due note.

U/D8, Dec 5: Smoking gun? (Video here.) The midnight, unsupervised ballot counting in GA — though strictly, the count from its outset with scrutineers corralled, was invalid:

U/D9, Dec 7, concerns that Dominion machines have flipped votes and on a test run a sequestered machine has continued to do so:

Cf. Expert testimony:

Cybersecurity expert, Russell Ramsland is speaking under the umbrella of his affidavit.

U/D, Dec 10, Lou Dobbs on the “Russian intelligence”/ “conspiracy theory” dismissive talking points on Mr Hunter Biden (with implications that his chief asset on offer was access) and Ms Powell’s unleashing of the Kracken:

https://youtu.be/IQjjjrR9QUY

[PREDICTABLY, CENSORED]

U/D11, Dec 11: Here is a framework for addressing media spin and gaslighting, agit-prop etc:

As it is such a glaring example on what was said in the “fine people” remarks, and as Sandy brought it up, let me add this correction from the record . . . yes, transcript, on Charlottesville:

U/D13, Dec 12, here is a backgrounder on Alcibiades which also gives a useful survey of the Peloponnesian war. One hopes, this will not be censored:

U/D14, Dec 12 HT BA77, Dominion demonstrations, part 1:

. . . and part 2:

5:04 on in this part 2 shows scanning in then voting a BLANK ballot, which the operator says “totally bothers me.”

She demonstrates also how adjudicated ballots can be voted.

We separately know that the scanner can mark ballots, sold as a feature for the visually impaired.

In short there is now no responsible doubt that the sort of manipulation discussed is a real capability — means. Frustration of scrutineering creates opportunity and decisively undermines integrity of the election vote counts. Motive is easy, power in the midst of a 4th Gen Civil war, in the form of a colour-culture revolution push, theme colour black. The testimony of many witnesses, statistical red flags etc point to actual occurrence, but recall, this is secondary. The primary issue is massive injection of effectively uncontrolled mail in ballots with 3rd party ballot harvesting and similar frustration of scrutineering implying dubious chain of custody.

All of this then points to the 26 years of history going back to the PA case of 1994 and through the exposure of election gadgetry since the early 2000’s, then rejections by CA and TX as well as links to Venezuela and more.

I strongly suggest, download the videos for yourself before they vanish into the censorship black hole.

U/D15: Hima’s testimony, something needs to be fixed here:

U/D16, Dec 13: I think it is profitable to look at a backgrounder on Mountains/pillars of influence, dominant worldviews and agendas, the change challenge and the crooked yardstick effect. First, the seven mountains, a mapping model for dealing with a corrupt culture as a remnant of soundness under God (originally, Schaeffer et al, 1970’s):

Linked, the Machiavelli change-timing challenge:

Underlying problem: crooked yardsticks vs plumb-lines:

Deeper background, a sounder view on political spectrum:

Further deeper understanding of an en-darkened civilisation, adapting Schaeffer’s vision:

Our civilisation is at obvious kairos, a hinge of history, with major dangers and opportunities. It is time to be good people of the remnant in the face of an Ac 27 storm.

U/D17, Dec 14, Ms Powell on the state of the American Courts and Republic on a date that most likely will live in infamy:

(Has this ALREADY been censored?)

Lou Dobbs with Ms Powell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGEmSMLgVeY

U/D18, Dec 16: A summary of the lesson of 1876/77, on the price paid for a devil’s bargain that swallowed electoral fraud:

Yes, the Democrats refused to acknowledge fraud and a devil’s bargain was struck over 20 electors that stopped Reconstruction in a way that opened up the abuses that lingered to the 1960’s.

U/D19, Dec 19: a summary of red flags from the Navarro Report, so we can see in the context of being an evidence summary:

U/D20: The “Solar Winds” Cyber attack, apparently in progress for 6 months, with direct entanglement with the tainted election (cf. 17:00 on):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=869&v=3T9VDichLPM&feature=youtu.be

[predictably, poof!]

China is named, along with Iran and North Korea. As well as, of course, Russia having been widely deemed suspect no. 1. This is an obvious example of an information-influence operation as act of 4G war, connecting the local civil conflict in the US to the global conflict, de facto WW4. Forbes comments:

The recently discovered cyber attacks against numerous U.S. government departments and  thousands of public and private sector entities around the world, via a compromise of SolarWinds software, underscore the risks associated with third party vendors and raise questions about liability. The attacks were allegedly perpetrated by Russia and were highly sophisticated . . . .

The attackers compromised the software “signature” of SolarWinds’s Orion network monitoring software and distributed malware as a software update. Public and private encryption keys are used to “sign” software. A software update is “signed” using an encryption algorithm and the developer’s private key, which creates a hash “signature.”  This “signature” is validated by the receiver of the software update by using the sender’s public key. The signature process assures the integrity of the update and instills trust in users of the software. 

In a December 14 SEC filing, SolarWinds said that of its more than 300,000 customers, they believed that less than 18,000 entities may have downloaded the Orion update during the March-June 2020 timeframe [–> the 6 months timeline], which likely included the malware. The malware operated stealthily and exfiltrated valuable intellectual property, confidential and proprietary data, emails, and other valuable information from victims’ systems. It was unknown until prominent cybersecurity firm FireEye, also a victim of the attacks, discovered the malware and reported on the attacks on December 13, 2020.

According to FireEye, once installed in a system, the malware remained quiet for a couple of weeks and then masqueraded as the Orion Improvement Program protocol. It stored data from its internal activities within actual SolarWinds files on the system, thereby making its detection all the more difficult.  The malware had highly credentialed access to the system and could disable system services, reboot machines, exfiltrate data, execute files, change system configurations, and perform actions usually taken by a highly privileged system administrator.

That sounds rather familiar, and illustrates what happens if a trusted supplier is compromised. Gen Flynn’s remarks at 16:05 on are worth transcribing:

When we talk about our election security . . . I think this is all part of it, because there is a relationship between this solar winds attack; which has basically penetrated our entire critical infrastructure as well as our election security. So we have to look at everything we’re doing . . . okay with all of the egregious behaviour that we’ve seen on our election security we cannot stand for foreign influence, which we have direct evidence of foreign influence. We also have direct evidence now from other countries, from other foreign partners who have evidence.

In fact they were watching the attacks on our election system, on our election process on the 3rd of November and they are willing to provide that directly to the President.

So we now have that evidence and have received that today. It’s very important.

So there are foreign partners and allies that are willing to help us with our election security and this Solar Winds system is really really dangerous and more has to be done.

The likely allies obviously include Israel, likely Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and possibly Australia given the focus on China.

Again, we are back to whose report do you believe, why.

U/D21, Dec 23: It was not possible to find the 1984 Movie through a Google search (yes, they are that unconscious of the irony) but DDG showed it, here is a colour version at YT, this may be pretty important holiday viewing:

If that gets purged, here is Web Archive.

U/D22, Dec 28: Understand the anger of the perpetually manipulated:

One does not have to endorse the above across the board to see that it has a telling point or two about the “Uniparty” and the issue of fundamentally unaccountable elites, leading a manipulated march of folly. Here, the lesson of Ac 27 is again all too relevant.

U/D23: A Canadian Lawyer and an American Lawyer discuss — as an example — the dismissal of the Wisconsin care; an example of how the election fraud concerns are being sidelined:

U/D24, Jan 3, what the Ukrainians have to say about corruption and investigation, through an Interfax press conference. Such needs to be soberly addressed in detail:

2,055 Replies to “UD Live Event from Nov 3, US Election cont’d: BBC — yes the BEEB — on BLM’s Marxist founders, “[We] fought to change history and we won”

  1. 1
    kairosfocus says:

    UD Live Event from Nov 3, US Election cont’d: BBC — yes the BEEB — on BLM’s Marxist founders, “[We] fought to change history and we won”

  2. 2
    bornagain77 says:

    The Arizona State Legislature is scheduled to hold an election integrity hearing on Nov. 30 that will include President Donald Trump’s lawyers Jenna Ellis and Rudy Giuliani.

    The event is scheduled to start at 9 a.m. MT (11 a.m. ET) and ends at 2 p.m. MT (4 p.m. ET). NTD and The Epoch Times will livestream the full hearing.

    Where to Watch on Nov. 30 at 11 a.m. ET:

    LIVE: Trump lawyers and Arizona State Legislature hold public hearing on election integrity | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfC2T7UpxkI

    LIVE: Trump Lawyers and Arizona State Legislature Hold Public Hearing on Election Integrity
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/live

    Live: Trump Lawyers and Arizona State Legislature Hold Public Hearing on Election Integrity
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW-cD3CgDQc

    ——–

  3. 3
    polistra says:

    Oh, stop. BLM is pseudoMaoist, not any kind of Marxist, and it works for Deepstate.

    BLM didn’t accomplish what it wanted. The riots firmly persuaded most people, both BLACK AND WHITE, that police are crucially necessary. The riots also demonstrated to most people that the current holocaust is a hoax. The demon mayors and governors didn’t arrest any of the rioters for failing to muzzle, thus proving that muzzles are solely about power, not “viruses”.

    If this is what BLM really wanted to accomplish, they’ve done a mighty good job of hiding their real purpose.

  4. 4
    Bob O'H says:

    ba77 @ 2 –

    The Arizona State Legislature is scheduled to hold an election integrity hearing on Nov. 30 that will include President Donald Trump’s lawyers Jenna Ellis and Rudy Giuliani.

    That’s odd, it’s not in their calendar, and according to the local news they are not even in session, and it isn’t a legislative session.

  5. 5
    bornagain77 says:

    Whatever Bob, it is a ‘hearing’ of the evidence for, and/or against, voter fraud that is being held in a hotel of Phoenix by leading members of the Republican members of the Arizona legislature.. If the evidence for fraud is compelling, which I fully expect it to be, they will introduce a resolution to the Republican controlled legislature to ‘remedy’ the voter fraud that took place.

    Might I suggest you actually watch the hearing?

  6. 6
    Viola Lee says:

    Yes, the event, like the event in PA, is not really being held by the Arizona State Legislature. It’s a private event with some state legislators, including one senator-elect. As far as I know the resolution offered by the people in PA went no place.

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    Viola Lee, you claim “the resolution offered by the people in PA went no place’.

    Really???

    And exactly how has it ‘gone no place’ when the resolution was not even made until late Friday night and it has not even been brought to the floor(s) of the PA legislature for a vote yet???

    I can only surmise that you would try to put such a false spin on the resolution going forward, (before it has even had a chance to ‘go forward’), since you are a biased partisan who could care less about the truth of the matter. In other words, if voter fraud did occur, you could care less as long as it is advantageous for your party of preference

    Only someone with a profound lack of integrity would do as you have done, and throw voting integrity itself under the bus, as it were,,, for purely partisan political reasons.

  8. 8
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: U/D1, HT BA77, AZ hearings, they are currently talking of 1.9 million ballots that were not signature verified, implying mail-in ballots. The issue of bleed through on in person votes marked with Sharpie pens, put to an adjudication file, which can be placed at will of adjudicators if not under close, proper scrutiny. KF

  9. 9
    kairosfocus says:

    Polistra, Maoism is of course part of the Marxist family, BLM is taking Critical Theories (yes, plural) rooted in Frankfurt School culture form Marxism to the streets, mobilising aggrieved minorities to serve as cannon fodder for revolution. Their close allies are Antifa and I have little doubt that there are many allies embedded in the establishment AKA deep state. When avowed Marxists are taking victory laps, we had better sit up and take due notice. KF

  10. 10
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: White Hat Hackers were apparently watching Dominion data traffic in real time Nov 3 – 4, with a surge of 7 up to 10 Gb/s it sounded like. Frankfurt seemed to be a relevant server location. The current witness is a Col Walton or the near like. KF

  11. 11
    kairosfocus says:

    Witness, anything that is software based can be changed at the click of a button. Compares bankers and block chain systems. Whoever has the eye in the sky can shift the odds, comparing Las Vegas. Man with a bag of usb drives. KF

  12. 12
  13. 13
    ET says:

    Oh, but we can just ignore the facts and the data… 🙄

  14. 14
    kairosfocus says:

    Software in a black box.

  15. 15
    kairosfocus says:

    Benford’s law as a flag, linear regression, algorithm id, decimal fraction votes, ranked choice voting, fractions, giving percent of votes to candidates. Severe lack of R adjudicators. more

  16. 16
    kairosfocus says:

    networks in vote tabbing centre, go to a station on the net, the system goes to Internet. Observer physically observed and sketched. Rally outside inset on screen.

  17. 17
    kairosfocus says:

    Observer then worker, frustrated observation AZ, seemingly selective procedures to allow people to vote.

  18. 18
    Viola Lee says:

    I was wrong, and apologize, BA. The PA resolution hasn’t been acted on. I was thinking of the most recent PA Supreme Court ruling.

  19. 19
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF is fear-mongering over the software but completely ignores the fact that the audits that check the paper ballots against the individual machine numbers, and the audits of the machine numbers against the tabulated numbers, and the audits of the tabulated data against the reported data failed to find any problems. As have the recounts that have been conducted.

  20. 20
    Mac McTavish says:

    Arizona on Monday certified its presidential election results, delivering another win for President-elect Joe Biden in spite of efforts by allies of President Donald Trump to reverse the outcome of the race….

    The certification was conducted at the same time as members of Trump’s legal team, led by former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, alleged an array of unproven conspiracies about election fraud at a hearing in Phoenix.

  21. 21
    bornagain77 says:

    per expert testimony as to recounts conducted thus far,,,,,, garbage in, garbage out,,,, he recommended forensic analysis of servers for a true audit,,,

  22. 22
    Mac McTavish says:

    BA77

    per expert testimony as to recounts conducted thus far,,,,,, garbage in, garbage out,,,, he recommended forensic analysis of servers for a true audit,,,

    I guess President Biden could opt to do this after January 20th if he wants to.

  23. 23
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: per expert testimony as to recounts conducted thus far,,,,,, garbage in, garbage out,,,, he recommended forensic analysis of servers for a true audit,,,

    What did Giuliani’s case actually say? Do you know? I’m not talking about what you think it should have said but do you know what case they actually presented to the Arizona legislatures?

    It seems to me that those asserting voting fraud have not been able to present a coherent and consistent case in any of the legal challenges they have presented. Perhaps the pro-fraud crowd here should look at what the Trumpsters are actually presenting in their cases. It’s possible you might feel let down.

  24. 24
    kairosfocus says:

    Here, a clip with Col Waldron on White Hat Hackers watching IP packets from Dominion on Election day, going to a Scytl server on Frankfurt Germany. This — notice, we are now connecting dots — fits with other remarks and reports on a Scytl server there being raided and apparently examined. That points to serious vulnerabilities, to begin with. Also, it suggests this is a likely focus of crucial onward evidence or intelligence. Other observed traffic may well be consistent with remarks on hostile hackers taking a peek into the election; various geostrategic vultures were noted in the earlier thread. So, those remarks should not be discarded as empty speculation. The immediate point is, assurances of election being off Internet are worthless, and we have further grounds for reforms to rebuild system integrity and trustworthiness being urgently needed. That a US Forces Cyberwar Col and team of White Hat hackers were watching live says, an active 4 G War, cyber battlespace operation was ongoing. A tentacle just made a very loud splash. Wise people would take the hint.

  25. 25
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, you have been willfully ignoring that there are ways to have electronic and paper ballots seemingly consistent with tainted ballots, having to do with frustrated scrutineering and ability to adjudicate ballots, also to mark ballots in ways similar to how people mark ballots. Indeed, the issue of blanks being adjudicated — and presumably marked too — came up. I have picked up key points in testimony of what seems to be a field officer involved with a cyber battlespace operation Nov 3 – 4, and a witness — whistleblower — who confirms, a continent away, a very similar pattern of machine politics in counting centres. Namecalling that as fear mongering only tells us that you have no substantial and cogent response, especially when tied to misrepresenting something I already addressed when Jerry asked about it. You would be better served to listen to the evidence on the table rather than throwing rhetorical distractions. KF

  26. 26
    bornagain77 says:

    Whatever,,,,,

    ,,,, the expert testified that the recounts conducted thus far are garbage., i.e. specifically he remarked “garbage in, garbage out”,,, He recommended forensic analysis of the servers, among analyzing other things, to obtain a more precise number of fraudulent votes,

    The legislators seemed to be very interested in doing just that.

    Auditing the actual voting list itself for fraudulent votes is being discussed right now in the hearing. According to the expert testifying, just auditing the voting list itself for fraudulent votes, minus any computer forensics, is enough by itself to swing the state to Trump since they, in their analysis of the voting list, detected more than enough fraudulent votes, via the voting list by itself, to swing the state,,

  27. 27
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, if what happened starting with uncontrolled mail in ballots and the like passes through successfully this time, that is the end of elections worth the name. This is make/break point, and the victory lap noted in the OP is a clear warning. I repeat, strategic decision over the next 13 months. A comparison is, Normandy lodgement, heavy attritional battles, breakthrough, breakout and drive to the German frontier, where natural defences and logistics constraints postponed the final end to the following May. But once there was breakout, the decision was made; just, Hitler refused to read the handwriting bon the wall and the coup attempt failed. The demonstration of the onward condition of the American Republic and our civilisation will be the way the 2022 elections go down. I assure you, if the headlined trio are happy c Dec 2021, the US and world are in deep trouble. I am pretty sure that won’t be the case, but an awful lot of damage is going to be taken to get there, in the US and globally. Rest assured, if the culture form marxist radicals are allowed to run further riot, it will be geostrategically and economically disastrous, Venezuela writ large. But then, my bet is, most people haven’t the first clue that BLM is a Marxist front operation, much less any appreciation for the implications of a colour-culture revolution push. KF

  28. 28
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Just for fun, THIS is what speculative discussion looks like, cleaned up of crudities:

    https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/293949798

    >>Presidential Address incoming this week . . . . The address will have senior military and justice department officials making comments regarding the election. Why do you think Barr has been so quiet. He has been putting together his presentation and statement that the electoral college cannot legitimize the election results now . . . . They will discuss the raid in Frankfurt and the role of Dominion, China and Iran in the election fraud. The biggest hit will be on rogue elements in the CIA who were involved in this. Haspel and Wray will be fired this way. Haspel because of Frankfurt and Wray because of the Hunter Biden computer cover up . . . . Took time to put this together. The election was a fraud and will be shown. You think Biden will be President after this? . . . . Coomer has been detarined and under arrest for about a week. He has ratted out several deep state and oversea rats. He has really gone to town on that Secretary of State in Georgia, outlining the bribes and the connection of China to Georgia political leaders . . . . BIDEN CONCEDES TONIGHT>>

    Contrast the demeanour of Col Waldron and the whistleblower. Who, speak from obvious, freely exposed personal acquaintance with facts.

    It is what ~ 1% possible the just clipped has germs of truth in it; this week would be potentially pivotal, after all. I bet, Mr Biden won’t be conceding tonight, unless he has been told that his and/or his son’s necks are on the line on evidence in hand if he doesn’t. And no, that wouldn’t be a Flynn game.

    I trust the contrast will help some objectors begin to tell the difference.

    KF

  29. 29
    Bob O'H says:

    ba77 @ 5 –

    If the evidence for fraud is compelling, which I fully expect it to be, they will introduce a resolution to the Republican controlled legislature to ‘remedy’ the voter fraud that took place.

    What sort of remedy are they suggesting, as the vote has been certified?

  30. 30
    Bob O'H says:

    I’ve just seen a Congressional Research Service report which might be interesting for anyone wanting to know what could happen next year when the votes are counted. WJM (I think – apologies if I’m wrong) was suggesting that votes could be rejected if one senator and one congresscritter objected. According to the report, if there is an objection, both houses go off to discuss the matter, and both have to vote for the objection for the vote to be rejected.

  31. 31
    kairosfocus says:

    Finance-minded analyst looking at pop and voting trends over past 20 years, the growth in pop for the key period is about 1% pa, voters, 7%, cites a county, Apache, going it seems 76 to about 87 to now 99% reported turnout; the latter is effectively impossible. He suggests fraud has been growing for some time. The US is worth about USD100 trill, so maybe it is time County officers and up be signatories on key statements with accountability at level of CEO’s and CFO’s of publicly held corporations.

  32. 32
    kairosfocus says:

    High Tech, big ticket utilities project manager with MBA, retired: this is the most important thing in the country right now and she cannot believe how sloppy it is.

  33. 33
    bornagain77 says:

    A Certified Poll Observer asked Dominion employee, “How are the data images being stored?” ,,, answer ,, Simple manual copy,,, then copy of voting data is taken off site nightly by Dominion employee,,, there was no chain of custody for voting data that was taken off site by Dominion employee,,,

  34. 34
    kairosfocus says:

    The manager was objecting to outsourcing mission critical functions to Dominion.

  35. 35
    Sandy says:

    The deeper the abyss , the brighter the Light.

  36. 36
    jerry says:

    Where’s Joe Biden demanding thorough audits so his presidency isn’t tainted?

  37. 37
    bornagain77 says:

    Many, many, signatures did not match verifying signatures in any way, shape, or form, yet counted as votes for Biden anyway,,,,, She said the signatures on the ballot were ‘chicken scratch’ compared to the actual verifying signatures,,,, according to the witness, far away enough votes, thousands upon thousands, were tabulated in this way to easily throw the election,,,,

  38. 38
    mike1962 says:

    Polistra: BLM didn’t accomplish what it wanted.

    They sure did help boost gun sales, though. 😀

  39. 39
    kairosfocus says:

    Live statement, President of US.

  40. 40
    bornagain77 says:

    observer testified,,,, Saw same hand writing on at least 30 different ballots,, but the ballots still were counted as votes for Biden,

    ,,, on a computer screen, saw a Trump vote default to a Biden vote,,, (more than once) ,, other observers testified to seeing the same thing happen,,,

    Supervisors contradicted their own policies on ‘overvotes’ whenever it would favor Biden and the intent of the voter for Trump was clear

    Whenever she complained about the many instances of fraud that she saw during the election, she was threatened, i.e. ‘yelled at’, and told to be quiet,,

  41. 41
    kairosfocus says:

    County Chairman witnesses R ballot defaulting D in presidential race on being entered, hears reports that it was happening. Similarly, serious issues on signature verifications. 30 ballots, same handwriting, scribbles etc.

  42. 42
    bornagain77 says:

    Because of the overwhelming evidence presented for voter fraud in AZ at the meeting, the Chairman said he is calling for a special session of AZ legislature. Asked constituents to consolidate their notes over next 24 hours, and put them in their proper format so as to be presented, and then he closed meeting,,,,,,

    And again, according to the US constitution itself, it is the state legislature’s job to make sure the election is free of fraud. i.e. It has the ultimate authority in certifying its election. Not even the Governor of the state, nor any other official of the state, can take that authority away from the state legislature.

  43. 43
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, I think the money shot issue is Col Philip Waldron and his white hat hacker operators monitoring Dominion election traffic live tied to Frankfurt and with our favourite geostrategic vultures prodding around. This points to the raid and raises issues on that scitl server. Cyber battlespace, and with a kinetic element. If a report is true 1st US army firefight in the 4g civil war was in Frankfurt, and cost lives. Some of this, we will see, I don’t take 4chan seriously. KF

  44. 44
    bornagain77 says:

    KF, I’m with you on that, but even an audit of the voter list by itself, is enough to turn the election, and that is before we even get into Dominion,,,

    i.e. via the voter list, they have hard evidence in hand already.

  45. 45
    es58 says:

    Well now I hear that the pa legislature is on vacation until Jan 1. So much for that. 1 more political Speech that apparently will go nowhere. Looks like another dog and pony show. Vacation overrides democracy. At least the legislature are elected, so there could have been a chance for representation. Stolen elections signal the end of a republic. The people who fought and died at Gettysburg are probably rolling over in their graves.

  46. 46
    kairosfocus says:

    Es58, if that is so, let us compare the moral duty of care challenge:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    Does this not tell us a good slice of how the situation deteriorated to this point?

    Especially, as a climate is being ginned up in which standing up on this point will earn undying hostility and vindictiveness — one of the underlying issues with the sort of push in progress . . . meet your new masters [oligarchs].

    KF

    PS: Remember the old curmudgeon who took down his old flintlock for militia duty, got on a blue coat and joined with a regiment there at Gettysburg, taking a bullet?

  47. 47
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, for AZ such an audit seems to be likely to have such an effect. If the legislature has the collective moral fibre to do its plain duty. The victory lap in the OP, by who, is telling us what is in store on current line of drift in the storm, but until chaos is massively obvious, it is easy to pretend we can get away with the seemingly easy path and hey, here is that convenient south wind that will get us from Fair Havens to Phoenix just 40 miles away in an afternoon. We must never forget that the examples of Scripture are prophetic, cf Ac 27. (Notice, how consistently this lesson on dirty politics and consequences for ships of state is not taught from the pulpit, much less the church’s duty of prudence, apostolic ambassadorship of the Kingdom [and of good corporate citizenship], prayer even in seeming defeat, and prophetic guidance when chaos seems to be in the driver seat? Can you guess why ___ ?) KF

  48. 48
    kairosfocus says:

    M62, what will you do when by destructive policy, gun manufacturers are driven into bankruptcy, gun shops and ammunition providers too, etc, and if you so much as brandish a prop gun in self defence against the mob you are targetted for ruinous prosecution and threat of gaol? KF

  49. 49
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Notice the snarky, dismissive attitude to Ms Powell speaking of a witness beaten up and hospitalised, in the context of yes there are witnesses to real time manipulation of results who need witness protections to come forward. KF

    PS: Note her final words in the clip:

    They’re gonna lose their job. Their lives have been threatened. Uh, one witness we know of got beaten up and is in the hospital. There have been all kinds of repercussions against people who have come forward to tell the truth. And no, Democrats don’t like whistleblowers, they only like liars who claim they’re whistleblowers.”

  50. 50
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N, U/D2 on Ms Powell’s updates on the situation as she looks towards VA. Note, “even as a restraining order was being debated in a see-saw back-forth, in Fulton County, a Server was taken by a technician on excuse of software update and has disappeared from chain of custody.” Likewise, she points out how, “[f]rom CA, a tape has been forwarded to Ms Powell and reveals 550 votes from 270 people, an indication of algorithmic manipulation.” Note John Yoo on the Trump presidency. KF

  51. 51
    JVL says:

    From: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9002479/Arizona-certifies-presidential-election-results-despite-Giuliani-touting-conspiracy.html

    Earlier on Monday, Arizona and Wisconsin officials certified their presidential election results. Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani made the trip to Arizona to outline a conspiracy involving foreign powers, Democrats and voting machines that he said made the election ‘illegitimate’.

    Arizona secretary of state State Katie Hobbs, a Democrat, provided the certification, which also got a sign-off from the state’s Republican governor, Governor Doug Ducey.

    As at one last week in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, the event was an unofficial hearing in a hotel lobby featuring only Republican lawmakers without witnesses being put under oath.

    ‘There’s no basis at all for any assertion that there was widespread fraud that would have affected the results,’ Wisconsin’s Democratic Attorney General Josh Kaul said in a statement Monday.

    He noted that Trump’s recount targeted only the state’s two most populous counties where the majority of black people live.

    ‘I have every confidence that this disgraceful Jim Crow strategy for mass disenfranchisement of voters will fail,’ Kaul said. ‘An election isn’t a game of gotcha.’

    Two lawsuits from others seeking to disqualify ballots in Wisconsin were filed last week with the Wisconsin Supreme Court, which has not taken action.

    Trump paid $3million for recounts in Dane and Milwaukee counties, the two largest Democratic counties in Wisconsin, but the recount ended up increasing Biden’s lead by 74 votes. Biden won statewide by nearly 20,700 votes.

  52. 52
    JVL says:

    From the very conservative National Review: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/11/trump-election-fraud-disgraceful-endgame/

    There are legitimate issues to consider after the 2020 vote about the security of mail-in ballots and the process of counting votes (some jurisdictions, bizarrely, take weeks to complete their initial count), but make no mistake: The chief driver of the post-election contention of the past several weeks is the petulant refusal of one man to accept the verdict of the American people. The Trump team (and much of the GOP) is working backwards, desperately trying to find something, anything to support the president’s aggrieved feelings, rather than objectively considering the evidence and reacting as warranted.

    Almost nothing that the Trump team has alleged has withstood the slightest scrutiny. In particular, it’s hard to find much that is remotely true in the president’s Twitter feed these days. It is full of already-debunked claims and crackpot conspiracy theories about Dominion voting systems. Over the weekend, he repeated the charge that 1.8 million mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania were mailed out, yet 2.6 million were ultimately tallied. In a rather elementary error, this compares the number of mail-ballots requested in the primary to the number of ballots counted in the general. A straight apples-to-apples comparison finds that 1.8 million mail-in ballots were requested in the primary and 1.5 million returned, while 3.1 million ballots were requested in the general and 2.6 million returned.

    Flawed and dishonest assertions like this pollute the public discourse and mislead good people who make the mistake of believing things said by the president of the United States.

    Elected Republicans have generally taken the attitude that the president should be able to have his day in court. It’s his legal right to file suits, of course, but he shouldn’t pursue meritless litigation in Hail Mary attempts to get millions of votes tossed out. This is exactly what he’s been doing, it’s why reputable GOP lawyers have increasingly steered clear, and it’s why Trump has suffered defeat after defeat in court.

    In its signature federal suit in Pennsylvania, the Trump team argued that it violated the equal-protection clause of the U.S. Constitution for some Pennsylvania counties to let absentee voters fix or “cure” their ballots if they contained an error while other counties didn’t. It maintained that it was another constitutional violation for Trump election observers not to be allowed in close proximity to the counting of ballots. On this basis, the Trump team sought to disqualify 1.5 million ballots and bar the certification of the Pennsylvania results or have the Pennsylvania General Assembly appoint presidential electors.

    By the time the suit reached the Third Circuit, it had been whittled down to a relatively minor procedural issue (whether the Trump complaint could be amended a second time in the district court). The Trump team lost on that question, and the unanimous panel of the Third Circuit (in an opinion written by a Trump appointee) made it clear that the other claims lacked merit as well. It noted that the suit contained no evidence that Trump and Biden ballots or observers were treated differently, let alone evidence of fraud. Within reason, it is permissible for counties to have different procedures for handling ballots, and nothing forced some counties to permit voters to cure flawed absentee ballots and others to decline to do so.

    Trump’s most reprehensible tactic has been to attempt, somewhat shamefacedly, to get local Republican officials to block the certification of votes and state legislatures to appoint Trump electors in clear violation of the public will. This has gone nowhere, thanks to the honesty and sense of duty of most of the Republicans involved, but it’s a profoundly undemocratic move that we hope no losing presidential candidate ever even thinks of again.

    Getting defeated in a national election is a blow to the ego of even the most thick-skinned politicians and inevitably engenders personal feelings of bitterness and anger. What America has long expected is that losing candidates swallow those feelings and at least pretend to be gracious. If Trump’s not capable of it, he should at least stop waging war on the outcome.

  53. 53
    bornagain77 says:

    Recounting fraudulent ballots proves what exactly?

    In Nevada we see that Nevada Judge Orders Inspection of Election Equipment in Clark County

    President Trump: Nevada Judge Orders Inspection of Election Equipment in Clark County
    By Kristinn Taylor – December 1, 2020
    Excerpt: “A judge in Nevada has ordered Clark County officials to allow an inspection of the elections equipment and sealed containers used in the 2020 election by 1:00 P.M. tomorrow. ,,,
    Powell: “My co-counsel from the Flynn case, Jesse Binnall in fact got a discovery order from the court today in Nevada. He’s been doing a great job out there trying to get more information and got the discovery order entered today. So they’re, will be collecting a lot more evidence from Nevada where there was massive corruption.”
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/president-trump-nevada-judge-orders-inspection-election-equipment-clark-county/

  54. 54
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 43 –

    If a report is true 1st US army firefight in the 4g civil war was in Frankfurt, and cost lives.

    It isn’t true. For a start, it makes no sense. The Germans wouldn’t let the US run operations on German soil (at least not operations anyone would notice), and if it was done without their permission it would be an act of war.

    Also, if it had happened, a lot of people would have noticed. Frankfurt isn’t exactly a small place miles from anywhere. And yet there has been nothing on the news. Even the local newspaper is covering this as fraud (including pointing out that Scytl says it doesn’t have any servers in Frankfurt), and the local broadcaster, HR, has nothing about it.

  55. 55
    bornagain77 says:

    JVL, National Review is hardly the bastion of conservatism that it once was under Buckley’,,, In fact, National Review has consistently had an overt bias against Trump since day one, thus it is hardly surprising that they would be bashing Trump now,,,

    National Review
    Excerpt: Donald Trump
    In 2015, the magazine published an editorial entitled “Against Trump,” calling him a “philosophically unmoored political opportunist” and announcing its opposition to his candidacy for the Republican nomination for president.[30] Since Trump’s election to the presidency, the National Review editorial board has continued to criticize him.,,,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Review#Donald_Trump

  56. 56
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, many of the witnesses were implicitly under oath as they had submitted affidavits, sworn statements under penalty. This was noted by Mr Giuliani during the discussions I heard. And in fact, a formal oath or commission is not the sole basis of credibility for a witness, a solemn sense of duty or purpose joined to capability to know the facts — i.e. being a witness — and sufficient observational and reasoning power to draw conclusions appropriately is enough. Most witnesses were poll observers and functionaries, who made notes and were obviously freely responding to questions . . . false witnesses and the coached are remarkably selective on where they are vague vs detailed. In addition, there was a lot of corroboration. Perhaps the most important witness, a serving US Army Cyber war officer, was there as part of his commissioned service under the uniform code of military justice and reported a white hat hacker cyber operation that should have been the main headline. DM shows its bias and failure here; I have no question that it and its peers have run with many stories with far less warrant and cogency. KF

    PS: Perhaps, you may find my review of [in the main] Greenleaf’s key principles of evidence here, helpful. I clip as of particular interest:

    [ . . . ]

    2] Conversance: In matters of public and general interest, all persons must be presumed to be conversant, on the principle that individuals are presumed to be conversant with their own affairs. [p. 17. Page refs are from a 1995 reprinted edition of his testimony of the Evangelists.]

    3] On Inquiries and Reports: If [a report] were “the result of inquiries, made under competent public authority, concerning matters in which the public are concerned” it would . . . be legally admissible . . . To entitle such results, however, to our full confidence, it is not necessary that they be obtained under a legal commission; it is sufficient if the inquiry is gravely undertaken and pursued, by a person of competent intelligence, sagacity and integrity. The request of a person in authority, or a desire to serve the public, are, to all moral intents, as sufficient a motive as a legal commission. [p. 25.]

    4] Probability of Truthfulness: In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is a sufficient probability that it is true. [p. 28.] [–> thus, the issue of warrant, as an extension of duties to truth and right reason extended through prudence that reckons with the risks of error and unreliability or unsoundness.]

    5] Criteria of Proof: A proposition of fact is proved, when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence. By competent evidence is meant such as the nature of the thing to be proved requires; and by satisfactory evidence is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond any reasonable doubt. [pp. 28 – 9.] [–> or to the relevant, accessible degree; here, preponderance of evidence]

    6] Credibility of Witnesses: In the absence of circumstances which generate suspicion, every witness is to be presumed credible, until the contrary is shown; the burden of impeaching his credibility lying on the objector. [p. 29] [–> not being explicitly under oath, especially for people risking reputation, facing ugly intimidation and in some cases threat of death, is not adequate to impeach and dismiss. Any you know this; YOU are not under oath on penalty of perjury here, does that confer to us the right to no-evidence whatever you say? Such selective hyperskepticism speaks for itself.]

    7] Credit due to testimony: The credit due to the testimony of witnesses depends upon, firstly, their honesty; secondly, their ability; thirdly, their number and the consistency of their testimony; fourthly, the conformity of their testimony with experience; and fifthly, the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances. [p.31.] [–> And here, there is strong mutual corroboration and fit to current and antecedent circumstances. One of the most telling points is the victory lap of frankly trained communist agitators as was noted from BBC. The sort of tricks we are looking at are longstanding tools in the known bag of dirty tactics.]

    8] Ability of a Witness to speak truth: the ability of a witness to speak the truth depends on the opportunities which he has had for observing the facts, the accuracy of his powers of discerning, and the faithfulness of his memory in retaining the facts, once observed and known . . . It is always to be presumed that men are honest, and of sound mind, and of the average and ordinary degree of intelligence . . . Whenever an objection is raised in opposition to ordinary presumptions of law, or to the ordinary experience of mankind, the burden of proof is devolved on the objector. [pp. 33 – 4.]

    9] Internal coherence and external corroboration: Every event which actually transpires has its appropriate relation and place in the vast complication of circumstances, of which the affairs of men consist; it owes its origin to the events which have preceded it, it is intimately connected with all others which occur at the same time and place, and often with those of remote regions, and in its turn gives birth to numberless others which succeed. In all this almost inconceivable contexture, and seeming discord, there is perfect harmony; and while the fact, which really happened, tallies exactly with every other contemporaneous incident, related to it in the remotest degree, it is not possible for the wit of man to invent a story, which, if closely compared with the actual occurrences of the same time and place, may not be shown to be false. [p. 39.]

    10] Marks of false vs true testimony: a false witness will not willingly detail any circumstances in which his testimony will be open to contradiction, nor multiply them where there is a danger of his being detected by a comparison of them with other accounts, equally circumstantial . . . Therefore, it is, that variety and minuteness of detail are usually regarded as certain test[s] of sincerity, if the story, in the circumstances related, is of a nature capable of easy refutation, if it were false . . . . [False witnesses] are often copious and even profuse in their statements, as far as these may have been previously fabricated, and in relation to the principal matter; but beyond this, all will be reserved and meagre, from fear of detection . . . in the testimony of the true witness there is a visible and striking naturalness of manner, and an unaffected readiness and copiousness in the detail of circumstances, as well in one part of the narrative as another, and evidently without the least regard to the facility or difficulty of verification or detection . . . the increased number of witnesses to circumstances, and the increased number of circumstances themselves, all tend to increase the probability of detection if the witnesses are false . . . Thus the force of circumstantial evidence is found to depend on the number of particulars involved in the narrative; the difficulty of fabricating them all, if false, and the great facility of detection; the nature of the circumstances to be compared, and from which the dates and other facts to are be collected; the intricacy of the comparison; the number of intermediate steps in the process of deduction; and the circuity of the investigation. The more largely the narrative partake[s] of these characteristics, the further it will be found removed from all suspicion of contrivance or design, and the more profoundly the mind will rest in the conviction of its truth. [pp. 39 – 40.]

    11] Procedure: let the witnesses be compared with themselves, with each other, and with surrounding facts and circumstances.[p. 42.] . . .

    These, of course, I have had occasion to refer to over the years here at UD and elsewhere.

  57. 57
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H,

    secret operations have been routine from the days of the cold war and have fairly routinely cost lives. Where, silenced firearms as weapons and cover stories are fairly common; cooperation with the local government would be just as secret; your speculation on acts of war is moot. That said, you will note that I am not affirming that it happened in that way with certainty, just, that were it so, it would be the first outright military operation. What seems far more weighty is the taking and examination of a server per earlier remarks, and the current point that we have here a different class of 4G war military operation being reported by a responsible officer, live observation of Dominion election data and internet access during the election involving Frankfurt and the notorious geostrategic vultures.

    It seems the cyberwar battlespace is on permanent war footing, engaging in particular these vultures.

    Next, this directly discredits several promotional claims of Dominion and doubtless others in the network of shared software, shell companies etc. It also exposes that contrary to election integrity claims, the election was open to man in the middle attacks, to inside job manipulation and to third party hacking while in preparation, while voting and counting were ongoing and in the aftermath, attacking logs etc.

    This brings out the significance of this buried- in- an- unmarked- grave lead and headline. That is smoking gun territory, as the deception by Dominion and other suspicious trends imply that we had manipulation and it was seen live by cyberwar command.

    This also gives force to Mr Coomer’s boast about what he did to the election.

    At this point, do you expect us to take Scytl or media seriously, given what has been going on, over the report of a responsible officer on warfighting cyber operations? With others weighing in also?

    Yes, we need a lot more information, but there is enough to take sobering pause.

    KF

    PS: Does anyone have detailed views on charts of shell company, licensing, subsidiary ownership, as well as the Internet activity circle web chart?

  58. 58
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, precisely. The inspection of the tech equipment, providing things weren’t purged eight layers deep [I am assuming spinning drives], will be helpful, though as of today, the clock is ticking down faster and faster, to Dec 6, 14 then onward to Jan was it 12 then 20.Kraken level moves are called for this week, and we saw one yesterday. KF

  59. 59
    bornagain77 says:

    Last night on ‘The Ingraham Angle’ they had an interview with a person about evidence collected by the ‘Amistad Project’,,, I could not find the video clip yet, but I did find this,

    Amistad Lawyer: FBI Collecting Data on Vote Fraud – November 30, 2020
    The FBI is looking at evidence uncovered by Amistad Society investigators who have crunched data from the government, then reached out to actual voters to see if how they voted actually matches the government’s data.
    “And we’ve come up with tens of thousands of Republican ballots that were not counted,” Kline told host Grant Stinchfield. “We’ve (also) come up with hundreds of thousands of Republicans who say they never requested a ballot, but they voted absentee by somebody else. We’ve identified people outside of the state who voted within the state. And all of this occurred in the key swing states that we’re speaking about.”
    https://www.kmjnow.com/news/amistad-lawyer-fbi-collecting-data-on-vote-fraud/

    On the Ingraham Angle last night, he said that, for Arizona in particular, he has evidence for 70,000 fraudulent ballots. Which is easily enough votes to swing the election to Trump, since only a 10,457 vote margin exists,
    https://alex.github.io/nyt-2020-election-scraper/battleground-state-changes.html

    As to the, now, robotic refrain from fake news media, ‘there is no evidence’ of voter fraud, I repeat this piece from yesterday, “Don’t spit in my face and tell me it’s raining.”

    A compilation of twenty alleged election ‘facts’ that don’t pass the smell test
    By Andrea Widburg – November 30, 2020
    Americans have common sense, so they can understand when they’re being played (for example, when politicians place Americans under house arrest and then ignore their own rules to party and travel). And they know that there is no way on God’s green earth that decrepit, demented, corrupt, and terminally stupid Joe Biden fairly won this election. This post assembles various election anomalies that don’t pass the smell test.

    J.B. Shurk, who frequently publishes at American Thinker, wrote a knock-out article for The Federalist about Joe Biden’s magical performance in the election. You should read the whole article, but here are four things that don’t pass the smell test:

    1. Biden allegedly got 80 million votes, which is more than Obama received at his peak, in 2008 – and Biden did this despite losing minority voters to Donald Trump and trailing Trump in voter enthusiasm.

    2. Biden broke 60 years of precedent by winning nationally despite losing prodigiously in bellwether states and counties. The last time this happened was when the mafia got out the vote for John F. Kennedy in 1960.

    3. Trump had extraordinary coattails, so much so that even the New York Times admitted that the “Democrats Suffered Crushing Down-Ballot Losses Across America.” Think about that: Biden had no coattails and no enthusiasm, yet he allegedly won a record number of votes. Smells fetid to me.

    4. Biden barely made it through the primaries, while Trump soared, with Trump’s performance being a historically sure sign of voter enthusiasm and probable victory – yet Biden, again, allegedly scored an equally historically strong victory.

    At The Spectator, Patrick Basham, a professional pollster, also felt that Biden’s alleged win cannot pass the smell test. Again, this is a summary, so you should read the original article:

    5. Trump exceeded his original vote count by the largest margin for any incumbent in American history. He got 10 million more votes than before; by contrast, Obama, in 2012, got 3.5 million fewer votes than in 2008.

    6. Trump’s support among blacks grew by 50%, while Biden’s fell below the important 90%-mark that Democrat candidates need to secure victory.

    7. In the Rust Belt, Biden lost black support everywhere except in Detroit, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee. In those cities, every single black person apparently voted for Biden.

    8. While pollsters can and do manipulate polling outcomes, non-polling metrics (historical norms such as the economy, enthusiasm, etc.) have never been wrong – only we’re being told that this year was the exception.

    Then there are the indicia of fraud that Dr. Navid Kershavarz-Nia detailed:

    9. The fact that Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, and Georgia simultaneously pretended to halt ballot counting while continuing to count is evidence of election fraud collusion.

    10. Optical scanners were set to accept unverified, un-validated ballots.

    11. The scanners were almost certainly programmed to fail to keep audit records.

    12. In the contested states, the voting machines were alleged to have processed hundreds of thousands of ballots within a short time, which is a physical impossibility.

    And here are a few more indications of fraud:

    13. In Pennsylvania, statistically impossible numbers of late-arriving mail-in votes went to Biden.

    14. Dominion and ES&S voting machines were created to have back doors and specific functions to manipulate votes either at the machine or over the internet.

    15. Fox News’s behavior on election night (refusing to call pro-Trump outcomes while prematurely calling Arizona for Biden) was so abnormal that Vegas oddsmakers instantly assumed that the fix was in.

    16. The allegedly late-arriving mailed-in ballots increased Biden’s equally alleged lead with statistically impossible perfection and stability.

    17. There were anomalies in Virginia that suggested that computers were subtracting votes from Trump and, sometimes, giving them to Biden.

    18. One analysis shows that voting machines in Michigan systematically removed votes from Trump and handed them to Biden. I saw a rebuttal (which I cannot locate now) that purported to debunk this but did so by using a different scale on the X-axis, which I found inherently suspicious.

    19. Over 100,000 Pennsylvania absentee ballots were returned either a day after they were mailed out, on the day they were mailed out, or on the day before they were mailed out.

    20. In all the contested areas, and at Dominion’s website, Democrats have been systematically failing to create or have destroyed all data that could be used to demonstrate fraud. This creates the legal presumption that the data do, in fact, show fraud.

    On behalf of all Trump voters, I say to the Democrats who are trying to gaslight us: Don’t spit in my face and tell me it’s raining.
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/a_compilation_of_twenty_alleged_election_facts_that_dont_pass_the_smell_test.html#ixzz6fGx6bx2h

  60. 60
    AndyClue says:

    @Bob O’H:

    > It isn’t true. For a start, it makes no sense. The Germans wouldn’t let the US run operations on German soil (at least not operations anyone would notice), and if it was done without their permission it would be an act of war.

    Of course it would be an act of war. But Merkel already proved her disloyalty to the nation by letting Germany be silently invaded by Syrians.

    I can imagine the “Frankfurt”-story to be true. German mainstream media cannot be trusted. If it were Russians attacking on German soil, we wouldn’t here the end of it. But when US thugs attack, Fräulein Merkel will sweep it under the rug and the Merkel friendly media will do everything to deny the attack. After all: USA are German’s “friends”. LOL.
    I hope the ones killed were US attackers, and not the brave security guards protecting the sovereignty of Germany. And fyi: it was not Frankfurt, but Bielefeld.

  61. 61
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: The TCF centre observers report on the unprofessional and suspicious events in the TCF center. This is not the mark of a high integrity election. Never mind the text from Gateway Pundit, just scroll down and watch, from Rumble. KF

  62. 62

    Whether or not Trump is successful through the courts is largely irrelevant. It would be helpful in terms of gaining some public support, but legally no court decision can stop Trump’s re-election (no claims of election/vote fraud against the Trump side even being pursued at this point to my knowledge.) While the court does have the power to essentially re-elect trump by vitiating the results of the election with prejudice against the entire Democrat Party, it cannot stop his re-election.

    The court cases appear to me to actually be plan B. Plan A was always about convincing the state legislatures to appoint Trump electors, and IMO they are using the courts in an attempt to strengthen that effort. This is why they are taking their evidence directly to the Republican members of those state legislatures. They are making their case for fraud directly to whom it matters most: the people that will choose the electors in those states.

    However, Trump does have the option of using plan C, which is constitutional, and he’s been making the case for it since before his first election, by using the 14 amendment and invoking the Insurrection Act. He can literally arrest anyone and use the military on US soil to ensure the domestic peace. His legal powers would be extreme.

    As the situation stands, I’m fairly confident he will do so if it comes to that, for the simple reason that his freedom, and that of his family, their future, perhaps their very lives are at stake in a way that even broad Presidential pardons won’t be enough to stop because of the very real probability of the Dems packing the courts. His motivation could not be any higher.

    This isn’t a legal battle for Trump; it’s a life-or-death one. If you don’t understand that, IMO you’re not viewing these events through an accurate filter. Trump cannot let Biden become President, if Trump is what he claims to be and if this all isn’t a big psyop. If he is “real,” he will do whatever it takes legally – to make sure he is re-elected.

    That failing, if what is going on is what I think it is, a military intervention will be necessary.

  63. 63

    AndyClue said:

    I hope the ones killed were US attackers, and not the brave security guards protecting the sovereignty of Germany. And fyi: it was not Frankfurt, but Bielefeld.

    The story is that the “security detail” guarding the servers was a CIA paramilitary team. There are different accounts as to how many died on each side of the firefight, but the story is that the military took possession of the servers.

  64. 64
    AndyClue says:

    @kairosfocus:

    > Here, a clip with Col Waldron on White Hat Hackers watching IP packets from Dominion on Election day, going to a Scytl server on Frankfurt Germany.

    From the video: “We did observe packet traffic that were going from the US. Now we don’t know if it was specifically Dominion traffic going… but to a server in Frankfurt.”

    Is there more to the video? Can his presentation be downloaded? Because what he’s saying is strange. Why does he not know, whether the traffic he observed, was Dominion traffic??? What’s the point of observing unspecific traffic? Lot’s of internet traffic goes to or through Frankfurt.

  65. 65
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM, a big problem is that 4th gen, shadow war is outside the conception of many people today. Unfortunately, we are in the midst of one, where the US 2nd Civil War is just a theatre of operations in a wider global struggle. Where, not only do we have the BEEB inadvertently exposing a Communist agitator victory lap — but maybe someone is giving a hint there — but the hoping to be new administration seems intent on going to Paris early on, to sign global surrender papers under colour of environmental concerns and aquiescence to global technocrat and “Science” “consensus.” Of course, science in key parts has long since been taken ideological captive. Pandemic response is a capital case, though design thinkers have longstanding familiarity with the problem, as do climate dissidents such as Watts and co. KF

  66. 66
    bornagain77 says:

    Here is a direct link to the video KF referenced:

    Michigan Montage: elections observers at TCF testify on the massive Democrat fraud
    https://rumble.com/vbidk3-michigan-montage-elections-observers-at-tcf-testify-on-the-massive-democrat.html

  67. 67
    kairosfocus says:

    AC, the video is part of the live presentation in the OP, at least from another angle. The Colonel — Philip Waldron if I got the name right — was lead witness, and gave a presentation that I am asking, does anyone have the slides. Yes, it is unsurprising that Frankfurt, a major financial centre, would be a key European Internet nexus, with server farms aplenty; directly parallel to New York City. Your remark on another city closer to Holland is interesting, though. KF

  68. 68
    AndyClue says:

    @William J Murray:

    > The story is that the “security detail” guarding the servers was a CIA paramilitary team.

    In that case: good riddance… as long as the criminals kill each other.

    Btw. similar stories are reported about Barcelona and Toronto: https://twitter.com/horelick_m/status/1333065099188297733
    I smell a new Call of Duty or Battlefield series: “Black Ops: Saving the Election”

  69. 69
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, anything on YT, I can only embed YT here; I think, security provisions, standard embeds don’t work — at least when I tried. KF

    PS: BTW, while listening my machine black screened then I lost direct audio on reboot. After a struggle , uninstalling RealTek then reinstalling from download failed. Saw, restart windows, and voila no more need for clumsy headphones, with due apologies to Ampex.

  70. 70

    Wow. Just found some interesting stuff doing some research.

    From an article late last year, it appears that the Trump admin was laying the groundwork to alter the chain of command for the use of all special ops personnel, and most relevant, the capacity of the CIA to, under its own command wrt specops missions and personnel, use any paramilitary teams.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/opinion/commentary/2019/09/10/passing-the-paramilitary-torch-from-the-cia-to-special-operations-command/

    Apparently, earlier this month that happened: https://djhjmedia.com/kari/jfks-vision-trumps-dod-watershed-reform-with-special-operations-civilian-leadership/

    Since then all special ops is run under the authority and approval of Christopher Miller, the new acting Secretary of Defense.

    This looks to be a reorganization tactic that removes any legal basis for the CIA or other civilian entities to employ any special ops personnel outside of DoD leadership approval and authority, which would be a US legal pre-requisite for the move on the servers in Germany or else you would have competing legal authorities – if, in fact, the servers were being guarded by a CIA paramilitary team. They would have now been under the legal authority of the DoD and would have been illegally in operation at that location.

    Basically, Trump did what JFK never got to do; he declawed the CIA and any other non-military agency who had been employing specops to do their dirty work here and around the world.

  71. 71
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM, I bet we never hear the full story on a firefight if any; 5 Delta Force down to 1 CIA contractor sounds like a raid gone seriously wrong at a room clearing point; recall, Desert 1 with Delta in Iran in 1979. The key thing is, the server rack[s]. How fast can they crack and vacuum them, what will they tell humble hoi polloi. KF

    PS,just saw, that’s an assassination offence in Clown books. The ex-Mossad protection team better go on high alert.

  72. 72
    bornagain77 says:

    KF, I can’t find anything on YT. Too bad you can’t embed from rumble. There has been a move to rumble from YT to escape the heavy handed YT left wing censorship and propaganda…

  73. 73
    bornagain77 says:

    KF, this article is paywalled, but if you can access it, this looks interesting

    Five Quick Things: No, You Are Not Crazy
    After the way Americans have been censored, gaslighted, and lied to, no one is obligated to accept anyone’s narrative anymore.
    Scott McKay – December 1, 2020
    Over the weekend, conservative Christian blogger and podcaster Brannon Howse, who has been denounced by the leftist media repeatedly over the past two decades as a conspiracy kook, generated quite a bit of attention for a bombshell interview he conducted with Gens. Tom McInerney and Mike Flynn.,,,
    https://spectator.org/five-quick-things-no-you-are-not-crazy/

    Article ends there for me, if anyone has a subscription and could put the rest of the article up, I would appreciate it.

  74. 74

    KF,
    That could be the result of orders to take as many alive as possible for interrogation, so maybe not a raid gone wrong, but a case of soldiers heroically laying down their lives to preserve evidence for a greater cause.

  75. 75
    Bob O'H says:

    AndyClue @ 60 –

    Of course it would be an act of war. But Merkel already proved her disloyalty to the nation by letting Germany be silently invaded by Syrians.

    It wasn’t an invasion, and it was hardly silent – I was living in Frankfurt when it happened. There were anti-immigrant protests, but larger pro-immigrant protests.

    And fyi: it was not Frankfurt, but Bielefeld.

    Ah, that makes it even more unlikely, as Bielefeld doesn’t even exist. 🙂

  76. 76
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H: Go google maps or even just Wikipedia, it seems a tourism-oriented town, quite a distance NW of Frankfurt, but I don’t doubt the main node would be Frankfurt. KF

    PS: Look up Settlement Jihad, yes it is a concept.

  77. 77
    DiEb says:

    Ah, the good old Bielefeldverschwörung raises its head – from the time when conspiracy theories were just a little bit of fun….

  78. 78
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, here is my clip,

    https://spectator.org/five-quick-things-no-you-are-not-crazy/

    >> Five Quick Things: No, You Are Not Crazy

    After the way Americans have been censored, gaslighted, and lied to, no one is obligated to accept anyone’s narrative anymore.
    Scott McKay
    by Scott McKay
    December 1, 2020, 12:00 AM

    Over the weekend, conservative Christian blogger and podcaster Brannon Howse, who has been denounced by the leftist media repeatedly over the past two decades as a conspiracy kook, generated quite a bit of attention for a bombshell interview he conducted . . . . It was Flynn’s first interview since being pardoned by President Trump. In the years since he was attacked by the FBI for having committed no crime in a politicized prosecution that stands out as one of the most egregious injustices in modern American history, he had been mostly silent in media interviews. But no longer.

    Flynn, a long-time military intelligence specialist who was President Trump’s designee for National Security Adviser, and McInerney, who was the head of NORAD and rose to the No. 3 position in the U.S. Air Force [–> serious positions of trust, that’s nuke weapons classification access stuff with all that goes with it], both lent their support to the Sidney Powell narrative of American elections corrupted by foreign sources through software manipulation of Dominion Voting Systems machines. The narrative no doubt reads like a David Baldacci or Tom Clancy novel; one is quite justified in thinking that it sounds a bit crazy.

    McInerney even echoed the story . . . that a Frankfurt, Germany server farm was the scene of a firefight between Special Forces operators and CIA personnel over a raid to seize those servers . . . . if you find yourself believing part or even all of it, don’t let anybody tell you you’re crazy for doing so. The people thus scolding you have a lot to answer for . . . .

    1. The Death of Media Curiosity

    Most of the predicate behind what Powell is saying about Dominion and the software companies counting votes in the 2020 election is not new. Nor is it even Republican. The alarm bells behind Dominion machines and the vote tabulation software were sounded nearly two decades ago when the brand name on those machines was Diebold and Democrats threw a fit over suggested irregularities in the 2000 and 2004 elections.

    And last year there were Democrats like Liz Warren who openly challenged the integrity of the Dominion systems and suggested they could be used to hack elections.

    How long has the president been screaming about election integrity, whether that involved software or mail ballots as platforms for a stolen election? Five months, easily . . . .

    2. What is Evidence, Anymore?

    Over and over again you hear from Democrat politicians and media mouthpieces that there is “no evidence” behind the accusations of a stolen election.

    This is an absolute lie. It’s a malicious lie, one that threatens to make it impossible for any factual consensus to be had within our national discussion in the future.

    What is contestable is whether the evidence of vote fraud we’ve seen to date is sufficient to throw the official vote tabulation in states like Arizona, Michigan, Georgia, Wisconsin, Nevada, and Pennsylvania into doubt. No one can make a true judgement on that score yet, because the evidence has not been vetted in front of an impartial tribunal so far [–> But there are no such, we might be able to get an objective one and there is the court of public, reasonably well informed and responsible opinion] . . . .

    Statistical anomalies in vote counts are evidence of vote fraud. Witness testimony of rampant lawbreaking at counting centers is evidence. Tampering and destruction of election records is evidence. The idea that Team Trump has no evidence of a stolen election is far more groundless than the subject of that idea could ever be.

    And let’s remember, the American media demanding that you believe Trump has no evidence of a stolen election are the same people who pushed a narrative of the president’s collusion with Putin for more than two years with no evidence whatsoever. They supported the deranged Adam Schiff and his band of miscreants when they presented no evidence whatsoever to support an impeachment of Trump over Ukraine. And of course there was the Christine Blasey Ford circus during the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, which contained no evidence whatsoever.

    For decades they’ve fabricated damaging stories . . . .

    3. Two Plus Two Equals Five

    Then there are the outright lies.

    Hunter Biden’s laptop was a treasure trove of hard evidence of serious corruption. When the stories of that evidence weren’t being completely suppressed by both the legacy corporate media and the social media overlords, we were instead fed deliberate falsehoods. For example, that the whole story of what was on that laptop was Russian disinformation — something cooked up by the same people who cooked up the Trump–Russia collusion lie.

    Take the various COVID-19 narratives as another example . . . it’s an item of faith among Democrats and their media allies that economic shutdowns are the only way to stop the virus. Also that asymptomatic spread of the virus is rampant and that there is no effective treatment for it.

    Every one of those statements is either a flat-out lie or, at minimum, highly challengeable . . . .

    4. Corruption For Thee, But Not For Me

    On one hand there’s the Trump–Russia collusion hoax and the Trump tax return fiasco. On the other hand there’s FISAgate, Fast and Furious, Benghazi, the Clinton Foundation, the Clinton emails, the weaponization of the IRS, and practically everything else the Obama administration did.

    The legacy corporate media called the Obama administration the most “scandal-free” in memory, something that should have put to bed any notion of credibility. Those same people, who ignored Tara Reade, the Hunter Biden laptop and Tony Bobulinski, the Andrew Cuomo nursing home COVID deaths, Extortion 17, Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein (until it was no longer possible to ignore them), the East Anglia emails, and practically every other scandal involving Democrat politicians and causes over the past decade and more, are now calling the theft of the 2020 election unsubstantiated.

    It is literally true that America’s legacy corporate media will not report on scandal involving the Left . . . .

    5. They Created 2020, And Now They Can Live In It

    The year we are ending didn’t just happen out of the blue. Twenty-twenty is the culmination of a very long chain of events going back 30 years or more.

    It’s the culmination of 30 years of coddling Chinese communists and allowing them influence over pop culture, our news media, our political class, corporate America, our technology industry, and our economy without imposing any of our standards on them.

    It’s the culmination of well more than 30 years of the Left wrecking our institutions with critical theory, poisoning the American people against our traditions and power structure with crackpot advocacy and idiotic double standards.

    It’s the culmination of half a century of pop culture destabilizing our values and challenging the notion that business and government in this country exist to make things better. The Left told us that corporations were evil, no? The Left has convinced us the FBI and CIA were corrupt, haven’t they? They’re not credible in assuring us corporations and government are incapable of colluding to steal an election.

    Everyone in America knows the system is sick . . . >>

    There is much more there.

    KF

  79. 79
    kairosfocus says:

    DiEb, okay, it is an in-house German joke about a smallish town then. KF

  80. 80
    bornagain77 says:

    Thank you KF. The Flynn angle, since he was certainly in a position to know of the inner workings, is what me very hesitant to dismiss the story entirely.

  81. 81
    Sandy says:

    Krebs was only fired, no other questions?
    Dominion, Smartmatic, and SCYTL were selected by Krebs.
    https://bwcentral.org/2020/11/163180/

  82. 82
    ET says:

    One thing is certain- no one should ever listen to any evolutionist when it comes to evidence. They have proven incapable of assessing evidence.

  83. 83
    DiEb says:

    A firefight in Frankfurt and nobody takes notice? Highly unlikely – but I could not find anything about a Schießerei [–> okay, shoot-out] in the first weeks of November in Frankfurt/Main.

  84. 84
    kairosfocus says:

    Sandy, selected to sit on DHS’ cybersecurity panel, you linked. Bro Fox, you are the guard for the hen-house. KF

  85. 85
    DiEb says:

    DiEb, okay, it is an in-house German joke about a smallish town then. KF

    Indeed, it’s an in-house German joke (about a decently-sized town) which indicates that Bob O’H knows what he is talking about….

  86. 86
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, that issue, lack of education on epistemology, inductive reasoning and warrant, is key to the wider situation. In this thread, let us address some of that, I have already put Greenleaf on the table on evidence of witnesses, hence the forensic-legal-historical side. Thus too, Journalism. KF

    PS: Note, background on first duties of responsible reason:

    We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour; so also, to fairness and justice etc. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, “natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate’s cynical “what is truth?”: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence — in key part — the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.

    That’s a beginning-point. Compare 2324 and 2270, with 1907 in the previous thread.

  87. 87
    kairosfocus says:

    DiEb, if there was a firefight deep in the cloak and dagger business it may well be deeply classified; silenced weapons with low noise signature would be likely, too. Big IF. AC suggests a different location, hence the joke. Frankfurt makes sense for a gateway for internet data to move and would be a logical tap-point; terminal servers may be elsewhere, who knows but the shadows folks. Beyond that we await more, but some will doubtless never be told. KF

  88. 88
    AndyClue says:

    @Bob O’H

    > It wasn’t an invasion, and it was hardly silent – I was living in Frankfurt when it happened. There were anti-immigrant protests, but larger pro-immigrant protests.

    The Syrians Merkel imported have been raping and in part murdering hundreds of young German women. And the mainstream media mainly stayed silent. And I’m not talking about the shameful sexual assaults in Silvester.

    I bet large portions of those pro-immigrant protestors would immediately turn anti-immigrant, if they knew what the Syrians have been up to. Now, I don’t say AAAALLL imported Syrians are rapists or murderers. However I would say that all imported Syrians do not share our democratic and moral values. Hell, they would have no problem beheading our residential married homosexual here (I don’t remember his name).

  89. 89
    Seversky says:

    Sandy/81

    Krebs was only fired, no other questions?
    Dominion, Smartmatic, and SCYTL were selected by Krebs.

    Krebs was selected by Trump. Was his firing a double bluff? Spooky stuff.

  90. 90
    AndyClue says:

    @Seversky:

    > Krebs was selected by Trump. Was his firing a double bluff? Spooky stuff.

    Hm, Trump did proclaim very early into the election, that he won, even when not all votes were counted. That was strange. Was he counting on Krebs and Dominion to give him the presindency? Maybe Biden’s people payed better than Trump’s?

  91. 91
    JVL says:

    Bob O’H: Ah, that makes it even more unlikely, as Bielefeld doesn’t even exist. ?

    Very good. I only learned about this wives’ tale recently.

  92. 92
    JVL says:

    Pardon me if I’m forgetting something that was clearly spelled out earlier on t’other thread but:

    What is the actual evidence that voting data was sent to servers in Germany and that they were subsequently seized in a raid?

  93. 93
    JVL says:

    AndyClue: The Syrians Merkel imported have been raping and in part murdering hundreds of young German women.

    Hundreds? Really? There would be loads of police and hospital and morgue and funeral homes records then.

  94. 94
    bornagain77 says:

    Attention KF, another legislature meeting is scheduled for today in Michigan

    Programming Alert: Livestream for Michigan Senate Hearing on Vote Counting Issues

    Michigan’s Senate Oversight Committee on Tuesday will hear testimony about absentee ballot counting at Detroit’s TCF Center, the site of Election Day dramas and ensuing protests that unfolded over what has been alleged was a fraudulent process.

    The event is scheduled to start at 10:15 a.m. ET. NTD and The Epoch Times will livestream the full hearing.

    NTD YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/NTDTV

    The Epoch Times YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/epochtimesdigital

    The Epoch Times Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/epochtimes

    NTD Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/NTDTelevision

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/programming-alert-livestream-for-michigan-senate-hearing-on-vote-counting-issues_3599578.html

    Of related, sobering, note as to how blatant ‘the steal’ actually was: ,,,The election ‘steal’ was, in many instances, as subtle as a mugging!

    Michigan Montage: elections observers at TCF testify on the massive Democrat fraud
    https://rumble.com/vbidk3-michigan-montage-elections-observers-at-tcf-testify-on-the-massive-democrat.html

    As well, Epoch Times has a pretty good state by state breakdown on the evidence that is ‘gushing forth’ for voter fraud:

    ELECTION OUTCOME UNCLEAR AMID PENDING RECOUNTS AND LEGAL CHALLENGES
    Click on state for details.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com

    Of related note:

    Pennsylvania Lawmakers Formally Introduce Resolution to Dispute 2020 Elections Results
    2020 ELECTION – Ivan Pentchoukov Nov 30, 2020
    https://www.ntd.com/pennsylvania-lawmakers-formally-introduce-resolution-to-dispute-2020-elections-results_534582.html

  95. 95
    bornagain77 says:

    Sen. Paul Rand
    Interesting . . . Trump margin of “defeat” in 4 states occurred in 4 data dumps between 1:34-6:31 AM. Statistical anomaly? Fraud? Look at the evidence and decide for yourself.(That is, if Big Tech allows u to read this)
    https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/1333145534765428737

  96. 96
    JVL says:

    Here:http://www.legislature.mi.gov/.....3jd2mlpaa))/documents/2019-2020/Calendar/House/pdf/2020-HC-12-01-092.pdf is the Michigan State Legislature calendar for today. And yes, there is an entry regarding voting.

    I’m sorry but WordPress is having trouble with the link: you’ll have to copy-and-paste it if you want to see it.

  97. 97
    jerry says:

    Project Veritas has gotten multiple recordings of CNN internal conference calls on how they manipulate the news. They plan on releasing them bit by bit over the next several days.

    https://www.pscp.tv/w/1mnxeaBlrlNxX

    I’m reading, actually listening to a book on DOSE, Habits of a Happy Brain. DOSE stands for dopamine oxytocin serotonin endorphins. Our habits are formed early in life and neuron connections are made bade on DOSE. So the commenters here who provide obstruction and false comments literally cannot help themselves since they get pleasure for each time they do it.

    So have some understanding for the anti ID people. They are just doing what gives them pleasure. Agreeing with an ID person would deprive them of this pleasure. Using logic or evidence is counterproductive since they exist on emotions that make them feel good. Such an approach, logic and evidence, would be negative for them.

  98. 98
    bornagain77 says:

    The feed just started,,,

    LIVE: Michigan Senate hearing on vote counting issues (Dec.1) | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZXkAv7yKgw

    and again, of related, sobering, note as to how blatant ‘the steal’ actually was: ,,,The election ‘steal’ was, in many instances, as subtle as a mugging!

    Michigan Montage: elections observers at TCF testify on the massive Democrat fraud
    https://rumble.com/vbidk3-michigan-montage-elections-observers-at-tcf-testify-on-the-massive-democrat.html

  99. 99
    Bob O'H says:

    JVL – copy/paste doesn’t work. Either use a link (i.e. put it in an a tag), or use a URL shortener like bit.ly.

  100. 100
    Bob O'H says:

    Of related note:

    Pennsylvania Lawmakers Formally Introduce Resolution to Dispute 2020 Elections Results
    2020 ELECTION – Ivan Pentchoukov Nov 30, 2020
    https://www.ntd.com/pennsylvania-lawmakers-formally-introduce-resolution-to-dispute-2020-elections-results_534582.html

    Of course, they introduced the resolution on the day the legislature is dissolved, so it dies.

    Now, they could re-introduce it in the new legislature, but it won’t affect the presidential race. if passed, though, it will say that the new legislature (and hence this resolution) is not legal. Presumably anyone who voted for it would stand by their convictions and resign to allow a new election to take place.

  101. 101
    Viola Lee says:

    BA, is this really the “Michigan’s Senate Oversight Committee” meeting in their official capacity, or is this another self-selected subset meeting in a hotel?

  102. 102
    kairosfocus says:

    First thing, what is a flash drive, even put in an envelope doing in the chain of custody.

  103. 103
    bornagain77 says:

    VL, looks to be the actual Senate (formal seating and desks), but don’t hold me to it.

    LIVE: Michigan Senate hearing on vote counting issues (Dec.1) | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZXkAv7yKgw

  104. 104
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, kindly see 56 above on witnesses. Greenleaf is a founder of the modern, anglophone school of thought on evidence. The witnesses must be heard on their own credibility as competent to be fact or technical/expertise witnesses; not brushed aside on any handy selectively hyperskeptical excuse. KF

  105. 105
    bornagain77 says:

    Bob, I know that the Arizona legislature Chairman, at the end of the meeting last night, announced that he is calling a special session. As to PA, I would think the same would hold, and/or be possible, for them,,,

    i.e. You might need another bag of popcorn, it appears they just loaded the second reel of the movie, and the movie has still got a ways to go,, 🙂 ,,, (If you remember how movie theaters were in the 1960s)

  106. 106
    kairosfocus says:

    You can go back in to prepare ballots to match the predetermined count, leading to chain of custody [and scrutiny] on paper.

  107. 107
    kairosfocus says:

    Fractional vote Ramsland[sp?] affidavit is printout from Dominion.

  108. 108
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: First thing, what is a flash drive, even put in an envelope doing in the chain of custody.

    Say again how you know this happened.

    Earlier I asked: what was the actual evidence that voting data was sent to a server in Germany and what was the actual evidence that that server was seized in some kind of raid.

  109. 109
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, obvious committee hearings room, it seems bipartisan. KF

  110. 110
    kairosfocus says:

    Concerns by witness 4 years ago. Has no confidence in recount. Asks for full forensic audit, with emphasis on chain of custody. Scrutineering required.

    Dismissive remarks imply bipartisan.

    Implication, need for forensic audit innocently explains no call for simple recount.

  111. 111
    kairosfocus says:

    Signature validation 20 y/o, 8 match point signature checks, not up to current banking standards

  112. 112
    bornagain77 says:

    It appears Republicans control the Senate and House in Mich.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Legislature

  113. 113
    kairosfocus says:

    New witness, poor chain of custody on moving paper ballots. Emphasis absentee.

  114. 114
    Sandy says:

    Seversky

    Sandy/81

    Krebs was only fired, no other questions?
    Dominion, Smartmatic, and SCYTL were selected by Krebs.

    Krebs was selected by Trump. Was his firing a double bluff? Spooky stuff

    🙂 Nowadays traitors are something normal and loyalty is very rare .
    A party who encourage women to kill their own babies is a party of treason and its tentacle can reach everywhere and everyone.

  115. 115
    kairosfocus says:

    What were agitators doing in the TCF center?

  116. 116
    bornagain77 says:

    That was chilling,,,, ‘overriding’, via inserting 1-1-20 date, and then loading fraudulent votes for Biden directly into the system,,,

    next witness saw,, In your face cheating on ballots,,,, with photos, and license plate number to back her testimony up

  117. 117
    kairosfocus says:

    Libertarian spokesman warns and pleads for reasonable action

  118. 118
    Sandy says:

    Mark Zuckerberg poured $400 million into this election, matching the federal government’s expenditure and through his charities, they paid the election judges.. they paid for the machines, and America was kicked out of the counting room.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/KelemenCari/status/1333776460545482754

  119. 119
    kairosfocus says:

    Poll challenger speaks to frustration of scrutineering, with inability to see closely enough.

  120. 120
    kairosfocus says:

    30 k absentee ballots checked, 200+ dead, 2k6 improper address, vacant, burned down houses addresses.

  121. 121
    bornagain77 says:

    according to witness, not one poll watcher challenge was ever accepted,,, all challenges she saw were simply denied no matter what,,,

    next witness validated that no challenges were ever accepted,,,

    next witness testified that a totally questionable ballot was given to Biden,,,, after appealling to ‘supervisor’, she was screamed at for objecting,,,

    Military ballots all had date of 01/01/1900 entered into computer, all votes she could see were for Biden (of note, Biden is as popular in the military as SPAM is 🙂 )

  122. 122
    kairosfocus says:

    Fraud validated case by case not by overall numbers, experienced consistent refusal of objections.

  123. 123
    kairosfocus says:

    If our elections aren’t fair we don’t have a republic, it is a banana republic.

  124. 124
    kairosfocus says:

    Drove thru snowstorm to do his bit to follow brave patriots

    No evidence vs eyewitness testimony under penalty of perjury.

    Ethernet lines go to bunches thence Internet, illegal.

  125. 125
    kairosfocus says:

    Indian immigrant, agitators trying to kick republican out, use of intimidation.

  126. 126
    bornagain77 says:

    Dominion tech hire,,, “What I saw at TCF was complete fraud”, stacks of ballots were run over and over, up to 10 times,,, She did not see a single ballot for Donald Trump the entire time she was there,,,

  127. 127
    kairosfocus says:

    Dominion worker there 27 hrs, witnessed “fraud.” Saw ballots pushed through 8 – 10 times. Other techs obviously untrained. Did not see a single T ballot. Something going on, illegal. Freelance IT, PDS, contract to Dominion. Dominion Secretive, believes needed support as 2 people need to be on stage. Software, Sam, at warehouse. Chicago warehouse, secret. Data loss, just before sent there . . . server farm? 2 affidavits. tab mach ballot jams, error message, proper to discard [electronically? yes by implication], restack and feed afresh, instead run through 8 – 10 times. Jams 2 – 3 times/hr per machine, folded, mail-in. 8 x 20 = 160. Steel boxes used to block poll watchers. Called FBI, spoke 40 mins. Scheduled to work at Dept of Elections, claims fraud activity there. Strange, not to speak that yet but did so, to come out next week.

  128. 128
    kairosfocus says:

    Have to fix this election, not just future ones.

  129. 129
    kairosfocus says:

    Notice, evidence before Committee with the two parties is consistent with that of the two hearings before Republican State legislators, with affidavits and with media tapes. This undermines several dismissive arguments.

  130. 130
    Jammer says:

    Either the fraud is allowed to stand, in which case it’s the end of Democracy in America, and perhaps the world, or justice is served and the world is saved. There’s no middle ground here.

  131. 131
    kairosfocus says:

    Inadequate training, got take home to read, little substance little guidance on typical problem cases. Taught to threaten, not to listen to, you must keep distance, if insist, call police on poll challengers.

  132. 132
    kairosfocus says:

    Describes intimidation, no follow up questions, has happened several times.

  133. 133
    kairosfocus says:

    Supervisors wearing political messages.

  134. 134
    kairosfocus says:

    Use of mask issues to accuse of bioterrorism

  135. 135
    kairosfocus says:

    Shouting outside disruption, chair asks if someone will calm them down, to cease disruption.

  136. 136
    kairosfocus says:

    Professional agtitators

  137. 137
    kairosfocus says:

    Computers with update overdue, log in as administrators, harrassment

  138. 138
    DiEb says:

    BA @73: From the article in the Spectator:

    McInerney even echoed the story, which has been posited on social media and in the conservative blogosphere, that a Frankfurt, Germany server farm was the scene of a firefight between Special Forces operators and CIA personnel over a raid to seize those servers.

    You don’t have to believe in firefights in the Ruhr Valley to recognize that there was a major problem with election integrity on Nov. 3.

    (Highlighting by me)

    You have to trust them, as they stun you with their detailed knowledge.

  139. 139
    kairosfocus says:

    Electronic list u/d 1st; 30 – 40 k register in 2 days, implied show up in absentee ballots, 2 – 3 Nov. Implausible. Frustrated from watching.

  140. 140
    kairosfocus says:

    DiEb, Am Spectator, is US based. The tossaway remarks on Frankfurt are not focal to the article. See clip above. KF

  141. 141
    kairosfocus says:

    Ballot dump 330 am after 8 pm limit, lack of transparency or chain of custody, estimates 50k ballots. Vid forbidden under penalty, affidavits crucial.

  142. 142
    kairosfocus says:

    Confirms use of dolly to bring ballots in early morning dump at TCF

  143. 143
    kairosfocus says:

    Intimidatioin –> breakdown of integrity

  144. 144
    kairosfocus says:

    I think that’s enough of a cross section.

  145. 145
    Viola Lee says:

    AG Barr: No Evidence Of Fraud That’d Change Election Outcome

    Tuesday, December 1st 2020, 1:36 pm
    By: Associated Press

    Attorney General William Barr said Tuesday the Justice Department has not uncovered evidence of widespread voter fraud that would change the outcome of the 2020 presidential election.
    His comments come despite President Donald Trump’s repeated claims that the election was stolen, and his refusal to concede his loss to President-Elect Joe Biden.

    In an interview with The Associated Press, Barr said U.S. attorneys and FBI agents have been working to follow up specific complaints and information they’ve received, but they’ve uncovered no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.

    “To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election,” Barr told the AP.

    The comments are especially direct coming from Barr, who has been one of the president’s most ardent allies. Before the election, he had repeatedly raised the notion that mail-in voter fraud could be especially vulnerable to fraud during the coronavirus pandemic as Americans feared going to polls and instead chose to vote by mail.

    Last month, Barr issued a directive to U.S. attorneys across the country allowing them to pursue any “substantial allegations” of voting irregularities, if they existed, before the 2020 presidential election was certified, despite no evidence at that time of widespread fraud. That memorandum gave prosecutors the ability to go around longstanding Justice Department policy that normally would prohibit such overt actions before the election was certified. Soon after it was issued, the department’s top elections crime official announced he would step aside from that position because of the memo.

    The Trump campaign team led by Rudy Giuliani has been alleging a widespread conspiracy by Democrats to dump millions of illegal votes into the system with no evidence. They have filed multiple lawsuits in battleground states alleging that partisan poll watchers didn’t have a clear enough view at polling sites in some locations and therefore something illegal must have happened. The claims have been repeatedly dismissed including by Republican judges who have ruled the suits lacked evidence. Local Republicans in some battleground states have followed Trump in making similar unsupported claims.

    Trump has railed against the election in tweets and in interviews though his own administration has said the 2020 election was the most secure ever. Trump recently allowed his administration to begin the transition over to Biden, but has still refused to admit he lost.

    The issues Trump’s campaign and its allies have pointed to are typical in every election: Problems with signatures, secrecy envelopes and postal marks on mail-in ballots, as well as the potential for a small number of ballots miscast or lost.

    But they’ve also requested federal probes into the claims. Attorney Sidney Powell has spun fictional tales of election systems flipping votes, German servers storing U.S. voting information and election software created in Venezuela “at the direction of Hugo Chavez,” – the late Venezuelan president who died in 2013. Powell has since been removed from the legal team after an interview she gave where she threatened to “blow up” Georgia with a “biblical” court filing.

    Barr didn’t name Powell specifically but said: “There’s been one assertion that would be systemic fraud and that would be the claim that machines were programmed essentially to skew the election results. And the DHS and DOJ have looked into that, and so far, we haven’t seen anything to substantiate that,” Barr said.

    He said people were confusing the use of the federal criminal justice system with allegations that should be made in civil lawsuits. He said such a remedy for those complaints would be a top-down audit conducted by state or local officials, not the U.S. Justice Department.

    “There’s a growing tendency to use the criminal justice system as sort of a default fix-all, and people don’t like something they want the Department of Justice to come in and ‘investigate,’” Barr said.

    He said first of all there must be a basis to believe there is a crime to investigate.

    “Most claims of fraud are very particularized to a particular set of circumstances or actors or conduct. They are not systemic allegations and. And those have been run down; they are being run down,” Barr said. “Some have been broad and potentially cover a few thousand votes. They have been followed up on.”

  146. 146
    ET says:

    And? It isn’t over. Let them flesh out all the statistical imprints. The big jumps in Biden votes when he was behind. There has to be a reason for it. Cause and effect.

  147. 147
    asauber says:

    “the Justice Department has not uncovered evidence of widespread voter fraud that would change the outcome of the 2020 presidential election”

    The Weasel Lives: I take this as an admission there is fraud, though.

    “The issues Trump’s campaign and its allies have pointed to are typical in every election:”

    The Weasel Part II: So fraud is typical in every election? Who is cleaning it up?

    Andrew

  148. 148
    bornagain77 says:

    Poll challenger, democratic challengers were allowed to sit at the table. republicans challengers were not allowed within 6 feet.

    immigrant Poll challenger, after denigrating her for having English as her second language and being an immigrant, she was removed by police officers although she had done nothing wrong,,, she saw many other republican poll challengers being removed by police officers,,,,

    Poll challenger, saw many violations of law, “Democrats ‘cheered’ when late arriving ballots (50 boxes) arrived, WHY???,,, It was “Pure and calculated fraud.”

    tech expert,,, Open hole in the election computer system which can bypass verification checks, similar to someone having open access to your credit card,,,,

    (Person with Christian T-Shirt was discriminated against and kicked out, same with Trump attire, while BLM masks, BLM attire, and Biden T-Shirts and attire were allowed),,,

    Poll worker, ‘during training as a poll worker he was told to use 6 ft distance rule as a ‘weapon’ against republicans poll challengers”, trainer laughed and said ‘exactly, not unless they brought their binoculars” when it was pointed out that they could not see the ballots from 6 feet away,,, told to use police as a ‘first resort’ to remove challengers,,, provisional ballots were used to mislead voters that their

    poll watcher, “It was a circus in there”,,, “parade of BLM” no Trump attire allowed,,, “it was ridiculous”

    witness,,,, Every single tabulator was connected to the internet, we saw the router with our very own eyes,,, when confronted, the ‘officials’ denied it was connected to internet,,, demanded full forensic accounting,,, pleaded to not send electors,,, democrat leaders should also demand full audit in order to heal the nation,,,, until then half the nation will not accept the election as legitimate,,,

    witness: I was there until they ‘stopped the count’,,,, not physically possible to count all the ballots they said they counted during that time,,,,

    witness, 6 feet distance rule was used as a ‘excuse’ by democrats to throw republican poll workers out,,, Trump was up by 10%, my monitor went down in the middle of the night, voting system was rebooted,, data dump,,, saw that Trump ballots were removed from tabulation pile,,,,

    witness, they were not following written procedures,,, inside ballots did not match outside envelope, they manually wrote the number on by hand,,,

    witness; purposely blocking the views of republican poll watchers,,, legitimate challenges were completely ignored,,, it was a ‘mock election’

  149. 149
    asauber says:

    And for those slow on the uptake… if there is voter fraud, period, that means Voter Disenfranchisement, which is an issue that Liberals/Progs/Democrats pretend to care deeply about. I hope they pretend to do do something about it soon.

    Andrew

  150. 150
    jerry says:

    Oh my God, they trust AG Barr!!

  151. 151
    Viola Lee says:

    Jerry, I don’t trust Barr any farther than I can throw him. But it is a fact that he said the things he is quoted as saying.

  152. 152
    asauber says:

    Viola Lee,

    At the end of your story:

    “Congress passed a mammoth spending package late last year that included an additional $425 million in election security funding.”

    So how we lookin’ with that? Money well spent?

    Looking forward to your answers.

    Andrew

  153. 153
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, Dominion et al claim that they have non-connexion, bills on that are immaterial and distractive from the crucial point. Next, just how long, with how much effort did DOJ spend on the Steele dossier claims before issuing a report? What did they do on Mrs Clinton’s 30k missing emails, how fast? Then, let us connect a few dots here; i/l/o the emerging wave of evidence in hand. KF

  154. 154
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Much more relevant:

    Systems Received $400 million from UBS Bank in Switzerland — 75% owned by the Chinese Government
    December 1, 2020
    COMMENTARY
    3 mins read

    An investigation into SEC filings has revealed that the firm which owns Dominion Voting Systems received $400 million dollars from a Swiss bank with close links to the Chinese government less than a month before the election.

    The investigation, conducted by Austin Security and Investigation Solutions, centers on Staple Street Capital, which acquired Dominion Voting Systems in 2018 . . . .

    “On Oct 8, 2020, Staple Street Capital filed SEC Form D offerings and sales amount of $400,000,000 with the Sales Compensation Recipient identified as UBS Securities,” states the investigation, which also notes that another payment of $200,000,000 was received in December 2014.

    H’mm China again . . .

    Then, there is an Eric Trump Tweet, of course tagged disputed by Twitter:

    Eric Trump
    @EricTrump
    ·
    Nov 30
    Biden lost 212 more counties than Obama did in 2012 (Biden won 477 counties vs Obama who won 689), yet Biden magically gained 13 million more votes than Obama… please…

    Muy interesante, given the wave of just emerging evidence.

    KF

  155. 155
    Bob O'H says:

    kf @ 140 –

    DiEb, Am Spectator, is US based. The tossaway remarks on Frankfurt are not focal to the article. See clip above. KF

    It does suggest that the American Spectator doesn’t care about simple facts that are easily checked. There’s a reason the city is called Frankfurt am Main and not Frankfurt am Ruhr.

    If The American Spectator wants to be taken seriously, shouldn’t it employ at least vaguely competent fact checkers?

    It could be worst, though. They could be asking Wisconsin to produce video of an election count in Detroit.

  156. 156
    bornagain77 says:

    witness: I was there when they were boarding up the windows,,, only republican and non-partisan workers were excluded, no democrats were ever kicked out for anything,,, that by itself is enough to overturn the election,,,, ‘no one I know believes that this was a fair election’,,,

    witness: TCF poll challenger,,, witnessed 500 ballots given to ladies to illegally ‘backdate’,,, stacks of 50 ballots were run through the tabulators.multiple times,,, witnessed military ballots with ‘Biden only’ vote, no down ballot,,, no Trump votes were seen in the military ballots,,,

    witness: saw truckload of ballots come in between 3:30 and 4:00 AM, driver said he did not know where all the ballots came from,,,

    witness: 80% of ballots were closed with packaging tape,,, 5 democratic lawyers,,, I was the only republican in the whole room

    witness: heard that 10’s of thousands of ballots had arrived after election deadline, he drove down as a poll watcher to see and witnessed the ballots were not like the other ballots, missing information, etc.., also witnessed 1/1/1900 entered on many of the ‘illegal’ ballots,,,

    witness: the harassment of republicans was ‘official’,,,,

    witness: I was a poll chairman and then watcher, there needs to be a forensic analysis, simply because very many numbers did not match,,,, voter and ballot don’t go together,,,

    witness: TCF was very hostile. 6 feet rule was used arbitrarily against republicans,,, but not democrats,,, saw cardboard put up to block view of republicans who wanted to see how the late arriving truckload of ‘illegal’ ballots was going to be handled,,,

    ‘expert’ witness: overt bias against republicans for decades in urban Mich,,, many ballots were not even folded,,, precincts in urban areas systematically don’t ‘balance’ their votes, recount should ‘open boxes’ in urban areas to get a honest audit. A honest audit or recount cannot happen at the level they conducted it at,,,,, 71% of Detroit ‘can’t be recounted’,,, asked for a forensic audit,,, says that we have sufficient laws on the books, says that the problem is that Democrats don’t enforce and follow the laws in the areas they control,,, Democrats can’t or won’t balance their elections,,,, Democrats won’t protect republican poll watchers from harassment, (‘officially’ encourage their harrassment). Current fake audit, does not take into account the 71% of ‘unbalanced’ Democratic precincts,,, If ‘Democrats did their job’, there currently would be no problem with fraud,,, clarification, 71% of absentee votes are not recountable. Only 28 % of in person votes are not recountable.

  157. 157
  158. 158
    DiEb says:

    Bob O’H @155

    Exactemundo: Someone tried to show his familiarity with a quite arcane subject – German topography. Perhaps he misremembered something, perhaps he just did not care, perhaps everything is equal when you report on exotic places.

    This tossaway remark should have been tossed away. That it was in the article does not fill me with confidence about anything else the author is proposing…..

    edit:
    just a tossaway remark: it’s Frankfurt am Main but Essen an der Ruhr as – for obvious reasons – the river Main is masculine while the river Ruhr is feminine (doooh)…

  159. 159
    bornagain77 says:

    witness: I saw a lot of fraud take place, multiple inconsistencies, contacted lawyers and lawyers did not correct them,,, after late night Ballot dump everything changed from republican to democrats, despite sizable leads, was not allowed in to see what was happening with ballots at TCF, saw pizza boxes put on windows, heard from a Detroit police officer that police officers were ‘instructed’ to arrest Trump supporters,,,

    witness at TCF ,,, eyewitness testimony from others at TCF is accurate,,, suggests camera systems for future elections,,,,

    witness at TCF: ,,, saw discrepancy,,, supervisor ‘send it through anyway’… ,,, a lawyer was told to leave for asking about the count, everybody instructed to leave, would not let relief workers in, pizza boxes were then put up on windows ,,,

    Chairman adjourned hearing,,,

  160. 160
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H:

    What are called difficulties are common in dealing with historical and similar documents. Scholarship has long since learned that a fundamentally sound core narrative can involve anomalies, puzzles and even outright errors in some or even all sources or completed historical accounts; such, without compromising the core narrative or fundamental credibility.

    Similarly, eyewitnesses commonly make errors of factual detail and are seemingly in significant mutual or even self contradiction, but it is then commonly found that there are deeper undesigned coincidences and a core coherent and factually well founded account, even where errors are present. That investigation is part of the task of the sound scholar. It is also one of the secrets of sifting forensic evidence, for collusion produces superficial sing off the same hymn sheet agreement — especially on what is readily checked or what will fit expectations of the intended audience — with deeper inconsistencies, the opposite signature.

    Likewise, as a rule, early reports on a matter are incomplete and sometimes face significant errors, without compromising the core.

    The attempt to use what is manifestly peripheral and “distantiat[ed]” in the above article to imply or invite inferred guilt by invidious association, onward rhetorically inviting dismissal of the core narrative is thus an example of selective hyperskepticism. Our focus should be on what is argued in the main. [Pun, not intended.]

    That argument, in turn, should reflect the continent-wide pattern emerging from many witnesses who on the face of it are sincere, widely diverse and deeply concerned over what they are finding as unacceptable conduct with a major election.

    Beyond that, the emerging evidence of a cyber battlespace and operations with findings by responsible officer, should be given due weight.

    KF

  161. 161
    es58 says:

    1: Does anyone have any solid basis (i.e.: a source document) for knowing whether the people giving “testimony” at the various “hearings” in Pa, Arizona, Michigan filed affidavits that matched their testimony or at least that their testimony was genuinely “under oath”?

    2: If not, isn’t it all just theater?

    3. if yes, were they also filed in court? If not, why not? If yes, what was the result, and why?

  162. 162
    Viola Lee says:

    Good questions, Es58. Good luck getting answers.

  163. 163
    kairosfocus says:

    DiEb,

    kindly note the just above.

    It is simply not the case that the location of Frankfurt was more than a peripheral remark.

    Now, an anglophone audience would be familiar with one or two significant features and rivers of S, W and SW Germany, the Rhine and the Ruhr zone, both due to intersection with the history of major wars, esp WW2 — crossing the Rhine and bombardment of the Ruhr.

    Where, for background colour, it is not insignificant to observe a subtlety arising in say, how Enc Brit begins its article on the Main river: >>Main River, Latin Moenus, river, an important right- (east-) bank tributary of the Rhine in Germany.>> Wikipedia: >>The Ruhr is a river in western Germany (North Rhine-Westphalia), a right tributary (east-side) of the Rhine. >>

    Likewise, unsurprisingly, Wikipedia begins: >>The Main . . . is the longest tributary of the Rhine . . . . The largest cities on the Main are Frankfurt am Main, Offenbach am Main and Würzburg.[citation needed] It is the longest river lying entirely in Germany (if the Weser-Werra are considered separate). >>

    So, if anything, discussion should have been on the broad zone of the Rhine and its tributaries as a key human settlement pattern. Tut tut, Spectator, marks off for missing geography. But only marks off as this was not a geography essay or one driven by river systems and human settlement tendencies since the days of hydraulic empires and rise of civilisations.

    Note, in ages before the English Channel (the days of Doggerland), even the Thames was apparently also a Rhine tributary — it would have been right bank too, as the mouth of the river system then was S of modern England off what is now Britanny. Even the Seine comes in, on L Bank, showing the dominance of that river in that whole region of then Europe; comparable to the Mississippi in the USA.

    The Rhine remnant of today, unsurprisingly, thus dominates W, S, SW Germany and linked regions as a grand drainage basin. Main and Ruhr alike are tributaries.

    That’s just for context, as it seems we would likely face a sidetrack on geography of W Europe otherwise.

    So, let’s get this geography debate out of our system and return to focus.

    For that, today, the witnesses were before a bipartisan State legislature committee, in MI, with a key focus on ground zero for counting/tabulation misconduct, the TCF center in downtown Detroit.

    This, being a major and troubled city in the Great Lakes-St Lawrence river system; yet another example of civilisational settlements dominated by water features. Once, centre of the US Automotive industry, but now a deep blue city haunted by urban decline.

    The pattern that we saw in PA and AZ has been reinforced, showing its substantial plausibility as speaking to unpleasant but strategically pivotal truth if the American Republic is to be saved from decline to banana republic status. A possible fate that is pregnant with potentially deadly global geostrategic consequences.

    In effect, the Ac 27 storm issue for the ship of state is to claw off line of drift to the fatal sandbars of Syrtis off the Libyan coast, and try to beach at Malta [= haven in Phoenician] or Sicily.

    That is the kairos we collectively face.

    And yes, Ac 27 is a prophetic scriptural example with much to teach us about the ship of state and its perils.

    KF

  164. 164
    kairosfocus says:

    ES58 (attn VL), if you listened, you would have heard that come up in each hearing and today it was essentially routine. Many witnesses have submitted affidavits and were often working from same. This implies that the evidence in the main was under the penumbra of oath under penalty of perjury, and witnesses would doubtless have been advised by their legal counsel to that effect. In the case of Col Waldron, he was also reporting on Army cyber operations in the cyber battlespace under uniform code of military justice; i.e. courts martial. Indeed, it seems there are hundreds of affidavits and more are being compiled with time. KF

  165. 165
  166. 166
    bornagain77 says:

    WATCH LIVE… USPS WHISTLEBLOWERS COME FORWARD: Driver Delivered Hundreds of Thousands of Completed Ballots Across Three State Lines – December 1, 2020,
    Excerpt: New election fraud whistleblowers came forward on Tuesday, including one who witnessed the shipping of an estimated 144,000-288,000 completed ballots across three state lines on October 21.
    The new information was made public at a press conference by the Amistad Project of the Thomas More Society, a national constitutional litigation organization.
    At the press conference, it was announced that they have contacted law enforcement about their findings.
    Evidence provided by the whistleblowers is being used in litigation by the Amistad Project to ensure election integrity and to uphold election laws in key battleground states, including Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
    The Amistad Project said that they have sworn declarations that state over 300,000 ballots are at issue in Arizona, 548,000 in Michigan, 204,000 in Georgia, and over 121,000 in Pennsylvania. They claim that their evidence reveals multi-state illegal efforts by USPS workers to influence the election in at least three of six swing states.
    The whistleblower statements include potentially hundreds of thousands of completed absentee ballots being transported across three state lines, and a trailer filled with ballots disappearing in Pennsylvania.
    One of the whistleblowers, a USPS subcontractor, Jesse Morgan, drives a route from Lancaster, PA to Bethpage, NY to Harrisburg, PA, and back to Lancaster.

    “On October 21, he arrived at Bethpage where he saw 24 gaylords (large cardboard containers used by USPS) and was told they contained mail-in ballots. He saw 24 gaylords containing bulk mail bins filled with identically-sized ballot envelopes stacked crosswise, which likely contained 144,000-288,000 ballots or more,” Amistad said. “He could see it contained handwritten return addresses and one was even marked Certified Mail, prompting the expediter to remark that the person must have really wanted the ballot to get to its destination. Both of these observations revealed the ballots had already been completed and were being returned to be counted.”
    Amistad continued on to explain that “Mr. Morgan got to Harrisburg at 9:15 a.m., ballots in tow, but was forced to sit in the USPS yard until 3:00 p.m. When he went inside to speak with someone because his hours were about to expire, a self- identified ‘transportation supervisor’ made himself known and instructed Jesse to drive the whole load to Lancaster without unloading the portion intended for Harrisburg. The ‘transportation supervisor’ would not provide him with a written slip, saying he would need to unload in Harrisburg in order to receive a slip. Morgan drove to Lancaster under orders from the Harrisburg postal supervisor, unhooked the trailer in the normal place, parked his tractor in the normal place, and went home.”
    The next day, his trailer, the only trailer he ever used on his Bethpage route, was gone.
    “Mr. Morgan experienced several odd behaviors by a select group of USPS personnel which postal experts in sworn statements indicate grossly deviate from normal procedure and behavior,” Amistad said. “The experts and investigators conclude that this behavior likely reflects concern by those aware of the potential illegal behavior and their attempts to prevent discovery of that behavior.”
    The Amistad Project alleges that fraudulent ballots were mistakenly placed on Jesse Morgan’s trailer, and that he has since been monitored by those who perpetrated the crime – and that these persons could not allow the trailer to be opened and unloaded in a public fashion.

    A second whistleblower, Nathan Pease of Madison, Wisconsin, was also a USPS subcontractor. He says that on November 4 and November 5, two separate postal workers informed him that the USPS was gathering tens of thousands of ballots and backdating the postmarks to November 3 so that they may be counted — despite the deadline already passing.

    “Mr. Pease’s sworn statement coincides in time with a dramatic ballot dump on the morning of November 5 which heavily favored Mr. Biden and which has caused significant controversy within the expert community regarding the statistical probability of the late insertion of tens of thousands of ballots in favor of a single candidate on the morning after the election,” Amistad Project said in a statement.
    Greg Stenstrom, who testified before the Pennsylvania legislature last week, also spoke at the Amistad news conference.
    Stenstrom says that in Delaware County he “witnessed unsupervised access by a vendor representing Dominion during which the vendor apparently violated election system certification protocols and inserted jump drives to download and update the aggregation machines counting the vote.”

    Stenstrom says that he witnessed election officials violating protocols by breaking the seal on the machine jump drives and comingling them. He believes that this reflects an intentional effort to prevent audits to accurately determine the count.
    “This conduct as well violates certification protocols. This evidence joins evidence from Georgia indicating a dominion vendor actually removed the hard drive from an aggregator and took it home with him, thus breaking the chain of custody and undermining the integrity of the count,” Amistad Project said.
    The organization has additional evidence including postal workers in Pennsylvania who were instructed to place Trump mail – including campaign literature – in undeliverable bins while making sure that Biden mail was delivered in a timely fashion.
    More information from the Amistad Project can be found here.
    https://got-freedom.org

    article:
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/watch-live-usps-whistleblowers-come-forward-driver-delivered-hundreds-thousands-completed-ballots-across-three-state-lines/

    There is much more evidence that is given in the video:, well worth watching!

    WATCH THE PRESS CONFERENCE LIVE:
    Press Conference by Amistad Project on ‘Election Whistleblowers Come Forward’ (Dec. 1) | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av-yC4mR5xo&feature=emb_logo

  167. 167
    es58 says:

    KF

    you wrote: Indeed, it seems there are hundreds of affidavits and more are being compiled with time. KF

    So then you’re suggesting that it is expected that these claims might get to some court where they might have some impact? And, what, if any, impact can be expected after certification?

  168. 168
    es58 says:

    KF

    you wrote: Indeed, it seems there are hundreds of affidavits and more are being compiled with time. KF

    So then you’re suggesting that it is expected that these claims might get to some court where they might have some impact? And, what, if any, impact can be expected after certification? It’s almost as if the system is set up in such a way to make it impossible to challenge election results, oh wait…

  169. 169
    bornagain77 says:

    Not a smoking gun,,,, a ‘smoking cannon”

    WATCH THE PRESS CONFERENCE LIVE:
    Press Conference by Amistad Project on ‘Election Whistleblowers Come Forward’ (Dec. 1) | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av-yC4mR5xo&feature=emb_logo

  170. 170
    kairosfocus says:

    ES58, the legislatures inherit the powers of parliament. They too are courts. They are judging the outcomes of tainted elections and Constitutional backstops are in play; if Governors and Secretaries of State join in the taint, they can and should be repudiated by state legislatures under their Constitutional powers once the reality of utterly untrustworthy results now and in future come home. The court of the informed increasingly disgusted — and armed — public also counts. Some things likely will end in the Supreme Court. Hundreds of people from all walks are clearly laying all on the line to warn about what they saw, that is in the end going to break through the sing off the same hymn sheet no evidence talking point wall. Esp if and as cyberwar operations results come out, see link above. KF

  171. 171
    Mac McTavish says:

    Well, i stay away for a day and I see that we haven’t gotten beyond the tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

    Is there any confirmed evidence of fraud? No?

  172. 172
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Project Veritas, aka rogue journalism Inc, has been taping CNN conference calls for two months and will be releasing clips several times per day across this week; starting now, on how consensus is being MANUFACTURED rather than soundly informed. The echo of Mr Moneybags backing his bought and paid for technico in Ac 27 should be reckoned with. KF

    PS: First clip, on “racism” of Mr Carlson, directly echoing the Marxist Critical Race Theory themes of the ongoing colour revolution push. Theme colour obvious from the riots across the Summer, black. Second, on the disputed election and locking out reporting the disputed status as not giving Mr Trump a platform. Instead of issues, Constitutional framework, and history such as 1800 and 1824 or 1876 there is pointing to how poor transition in 2000 allegedly set up the 9/11 attacks. Of course, there was a disputed election led by . . . Democrat Al Gore, VP under Mr Clinton. Laying down the hymn sheet lines to sing from.

  173. 173
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, you seem to imagine that your slanderous namecalling defines reality; newsflash, it doesn’t though it lets us understand what you are by using the mirror principle as to how what you project reflects what lies within, where, sadly but by now not unexpectedly, it is definitely not careful consideration of evidence and concerns on the table. That is in itself confirmation of the pattern of objections we have seen over the years for far too many cases. In this case, you have refused to show basic respect to dozens of people from all walks of life who — at risk to themselves — went on record in affidavits under penalty of law and were before a Committee of the MI legislature today, speaking to flesh out a now sadly familiar continent-wide pattern on the way the election was carried out and what is wrong with key gadgetry and software. KF

    PS: No, you don’t get to sweep away eyewitness testimony from multiple, independent witnesses because you don’t like what is being testified to.

  174. 174
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    MMT, you seem to imagine that your slanderous namecalling defines reality;

    Nope. I imagine that evidence defines reality. Do you actually have evidence of election fraud? Or are you relying on evidence presented at hearings where nobody is under oath? Or claims that Dominion has links to Venezuela when there is no evidence for this? Or claims that the Dominion systems are prone to manipulation when every audit and recount has shown no problem? Or anecdotal “just so” stories? Or excel scatter plots based on false premises? Or the fact that mail in ballots favor Biden? or that ballots from large cities favor Biden?…

    Sorry, but your recurrent claim of selective hyperskepticalism only applies to two or three people on this thread. And one of them isn’t me. If you are looking for who it applies to I suggest that you look for the nearest mirror. Given your love of your own opinion, I doubt if you are ever far from a mirror

  175. 175

    One single anonymous accusation against Trump and the media go into a 24/7 frenzy. Four federal investigations, 500 witnesses, $50 million dollars of taxpayer money and no evidence whatsoever; when placed under oath, those accusing Trump of conspiring with Russia on TV night after night admit they have seen zero evidence of it. Yet, people still believe it is true.

    Yet, hundreds of witnesses testify to election fraud and not a peep from the mainstream media, people call it “theater,” and “tinfoil hat” conspiracy theories.

    This disparity remains without even an attempted explanation by the skeptical here. Can you imagine if there was this much evidence for the Russia Collusion conspiracy theory? Trump would have been drummed out of office and arrested long ago, and a lot of his staff and associates probably tried for treason-related charges. Yet, not a single “Russian Collusion” charge whatsoever for any US citizen.

    It’s getting harder and harder to continue with any of the skeptical here under the principle of charity. The best I can do is assume TDS and/or extreme cognitive dissonance.

    The position that there wasn’t massive, organized fraud for Biden this election isn’t even reasonably tenable anymore considering the evidence currently available, and there’s supposedly much more yet to come.

  176. 176
    JVL says:

    Trump inciting violence, says Georgia election official

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55153918

    Voice quaking with anger at a news conference in Atlanta, Mr Sterling, the state’s voting systems implementation manager, rebuked his fellow Republicans, including the president.
    He said a 20-year-old contractor in Gwinnett County for Dominion Voting Systems, which has become the subject of baseless right-wing conspiracy theories, had received death threats. The worker’s family was also getting harassed, Mr Sterling added.

    The unnamed man had been threatened with a noose and accused of treason, Mr Sterling said, after transferring a report on ballot batches to a county computer so he could read it.
    Mr Sterling said he himself has a police guard outside his home, while the wife of Georgia’s Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, was “getting sexualised threats through her cell phone”.
    “Mr President, you have not condemned these actions or this language,” added Mr Sterling. “Senators, you have not condemned these actions or this language.
    “We need you to step up and if you’re going to take a position of leadership, show some!”
    He added: “Death threats, physical threats, intimidation, it’s too much, it’s not right, they’ve lost the moral high ground to claim that it is.”

    Mr Sterling also cited threats of violence against Chris Krebs, who was fired last month as head of the US Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency after he disputed Mr Trump’s fraud claims.
    Mr Sterling condemned Trump lawyer Joe DiGenova, who said on Monday that Mr Krebs should be “taken out at dawn and shot”.
    Addressing Mr Trump directly, Mr Sterling continued: “You have the right to go to the courts. What you don’t have the ability to do, and you need to step up and say this, is stop inspiring people to commit potential acts of violence.
    “Someone’s going to get hurt, someone’s going to get shot, someone’s going to get killed, and it’s not right.”
    He added: “Be the bigger man here, and stop, step in, tell your supporters, don’t be violent, don’t intimidate. All that’s wrong, it’s un-American.”

  177. 177
    JVL says:

    And, again: what is the actual evidence that voting data was transferred to a server in German (somewhere) and that the server was seized in a gunfight?

    Or is it all just rumour and hearsay?

  178. 178
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, you are refusing to attend to the affidavit-backed, under Uniform Military code testimony and presentation of Col Waldron, who reports that white hat hackers of the US Army were observing the traffic live. This is supported by others. I know of no one who affirms as established fact that a gunfight occurred, so I object to the AND connective. Several parties do affirm in a context that would be generally under oath, that a server was seized. In due course, such may be confirmed. As WJM highlights, the selective hyperskepticism joined to persistent refusal to attend to evidence adequate for normal discussion and certainly civil action per preponderance of evidence speaks. Further to this, there is a rhetorical suggestion implicit in repeated demands of this nature, that in reality such are accusations being drummed in psychologically through repeated emphasis and invidious association. KF

    PS: I find it interesting that at no point have the objectors in this and previous threads, repeatedly presented with massive evidence of violence through street action by BLM and Antifa rioters — they and the media insist on “protesters” [I am focussing on the rioters] — then now ugly intimidation and machine politics in election centres, acknowledged this as a problem. But now, an isolated case is raised on what would be wrongful behaviour were it shown true. This reeks of projection and demonisation through utter want of balance.

  179. 179
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: you are refusing to attend to the affidavit-backed, under Uniform Military code testimony and presentation of Col Waldron, who reports that white hat hackers of the US Army were observing the traffic live.

    So, it was his testimony . . . was him or someone else that said they saw traffic but they could not confirm it was from Dominion Voting Systems?

  180. 180
    DiEb says:

    KF:

    Agreed, it was just a peripheral remark, highlighting the authors diligence when it comes to plausible sounding factoids.

    And it sheds a light on your willingness to pontificate at length about topics after a short Google search! FYI, Ruhrgebietis a metropolitan area in Germany – as is Rhein-Main-Gebiet. Though the term is quite traditional, it was codified in 1995 by the Ministerkonferenz für Raumordnung.

    So, if anything, discussion should have been on the broad zone of the Rhine and its tributaries as a key human settlement pattern.

    Well, take that to said Ministerkonferenz!

    Your argument boils down to “Actually, you’ll find that I’m correct historically”, which could be the last words of an explorer after insulting the natives.

  181. 181
    Sandy says:

    🙂 I have a question for people saying there is no evidence of fraud : Do you have evidences these elections have happened?
    If you can’t audit the whole process, no chain of custody,
    no observers, no audit of machines, no signature matches then there were no elections in 2020.

  182. 182
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT,

    WJM is right in his comment following yours. Following up, no, evidence does not define reality. It merely reflects it, taking this to effectively mean empirical observation, record etc. Evidentialism is demonstrably self-referentially incoherent and utterly ill advised.

    Next, you refuse to acknowledge even the most basic public facts, already presented by way of definition in your presence, that an affidavit is a declaration of witnessed facts under oath and penalty of perjury, involving years of incarceration. There are hundreds of such affidavits on the table, and witnesses by the dozen testifying are speaking under that penumbra; thus are under oath by direct implication of the affidavits. I am sure that were there material contradictions or a wave of retractions of such, you and others would pounce on that to impeach and discredit not only individuals but the whole. Your refusal of manifest readily accessible facts on that speaks.

    In addition Col Waldron is speaking of US Army cyber war operations, under penalty of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, thus the much harsher test of court martial.

    That you refuse to acknowledge such is already decisive, showing unwillingness to address inconvenient facts. Such is already discrediting.

    Next, there is context. Legislatures of the anglophone world, in key part, are courts; inheriting ancient powers from the mother of parliaments to try facts and law and even impose rulings with sentences enforced under law. You recently saw that in action in the impeachment and failed trial of the current US President. In this context, Legislatures and delegations of such can carry out investigations, then proceed on such to take up their constitutional powers to determine the choice of delegates to the Electoral College.

    Such are public facts, of longstanding establishment. They have been pointed to in your presence, so there is no excuse for onward pretended doubt as to their reality. You show yourself closed against public facts, giving us the right to draw severe conclusions regarding your further claims and arguments. You would have been better advised to argue otherwise.

    Going further, your denial of publicly available and presented facts showing that the Venezuela connexion was known since 2006 in the public, and was raised as recently as last year by Democrat Legislators, speaks. Your dismissal of affidavit by a man risking life not just incarceration to blow the whistle speaks.

    You allude to recounts and “audits,” where you know or should know that the techniques in use were designed to evade what has been done so far: counts of tainted ballot sets have no bearing on the matter. Where, the primary, most material source of taint is the use of effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots and associated third party harvesting, tied to breakdown of chain of custody.

    Similarly, the presence of fractional votes in public reports while counting was in progress where such ought not have been, as was exhibited in the previous thread’s OP and as was noted in your presence indicates beyond reasonable doubt and the known properties of integers, algorithmic interference with the count.

    Even floating point numbers based on wholes and summed properly would only give .000 . . . fractional parts. However, as rationals [what we can process arithmetically, note we round say pi to a rational in calculation] are open to further operations, their use is already a breakdown of protections. Interference by software that is not transparent and running on machines that are similarly not transparent is thus demonstrated by printout given in expert affidavit.

    The American fascination with gadgetry is here an open door to fraud.

    Your similarly dismissive treatment of far fluctuation statistical patterns and associated red flags reflects the same pattern.

    Were this a matter of little consequence, it would be a simple matter to let you and those you are here enabling have their head, and run over a cliff, showing the manifest march of folly.

    But that is precisely what cannot in any reasonable prudence, be allowed to happen.

    On matters of such grave import, we must seek to identify trouble well ahead and avert it. This of course raises Machiavelli’s hectic fever dilemma. Political disorders are like that complaint at the first readily cured but hard to diagnose. But if at length for want of prompt diagnosis and timely treatment the course of the disease becomes manifest to one and all, it is then far too late to cure. At that point, the prognosis is grim.

    The USA is the leading global maritime power, guardian of global stability. Its economy is a crucial engine of economic stability. It is the motherland of modern self government by free people, under Constitution and with general elections as a peaceful means to the tested will of the people. If a colour revolution and linked injection of enablers of fraud go through there, grave damage is done everywhere. Just as, c 400 BC, due to Athenian folly and defeat in the Peloponnesian war, classical democratic government was discredited for over 2,000 years.

    No sane person wants to revert to oligarchy, much less the lawless oligarchy of a Marxist ideologically driven nomenklatura; which is what lurks behind this black theme colour revolutionary push. Something that the BEEB just inadvertently confirmed in its report of the victory lap being taken by BLM founders; cf. OP above, which you have of course studiously evaded, never mind months of refusal to take evidence of such a push seriously. Of course, those who deny basic facts on the nature of affidavits have no hesitation to dismiss such things. (And as for the deep past of origins, you just managed to demonstrate why the objectors to the design inference on reliable sign have no credibility.)

    It is time for the charioteer of the virtues to take the reins, prudence.

    The choice the USA faces now is, acknowledge and take drastic action to correct ONE tainted election; or else, cede that no election from now on will have any credibility.

    With that choice on the table, the 4th gen civil war that was initiated over the past several years through leftist, culture form marxism influenced ruthless power brokers, lawyers, media figures and their backers, just kicked up an order of magnitude in intensity.

    Regardless of who is sworn in Jan 20, the genie has been let loose and is running riot. Chaos follows, as night follows day. I am confident the radicals will be defeated, with strategic decision within the next 13 months and counting down. However, the cost is going to be horrific or worse. Those who opened the flood gates to fraud have some ‘splaining to do.

    I put back on the table, again, the moral duty challenge you and others busily enabling the march of folly, have repeatedly refused to cogently address:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    Sad, but that is what we now face, in an Ac 27 storm.

    KF

  183. 183
    kairosfocus says:

    DiEb, I saw a distraction, set it in wider context, and duly note that that wider context obtains. The river systems of W and S Germany have been duly noted on and set in context of the past 12kY or so, with import for human settlement. [And no, the Doggerland issue is no mere quick google search exercise, it connects to roots of Britain; I recall being struck by the reports of the extended Rhine basin and how the Thames was once a tributary — they call the ancient river under the Channel, the Channel River. The Seine was a tributary too but France is not so central.] Similar patterns have been noted on from founding of human civilisations to the situation of Detroit, ground zero for machine politics and a desperate voting public that has long tolerated such dirty politics. Am Spec has been duly tut-tutted, docked marks and now we can deal with the substantial issue: there is a serious electoral fraud issue on the table an it is not tinfoil hat kookery to be concerned. Can we now face it? KF.

  184. 184
    bornagain77 says:

    Wistleblowers USPS,,,,

    Phil Kline: Two Trailers Full of Completed Ballots Were Delivered to Pennsylvania from NY — One on November 4th! (VIDEO)
    Excerpt: On Tuesday night Kline (Amistad Project) described one load that was delivered to Pennsylvania in October and a second load of completed ballots that were delivered to Pennsylvania on November 4th to Delaware County.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/trump-attorney-phil-kline-two-trailers-full-completed-ballots-delivered-pennsylvania-ny-one-november-4th-video/

    Video interview with Lou Dobbs

    Attorney Phil Kline: Two Trailers Full of Filled Out Ballots Delivered to Pennsylvania from NY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRfF5WePmRo&feature=emb_logo
    Lou Dobbs ‘The evidence for fraud is almost everywhere!”

    Comment on YouTube,,, “THE DEMOCRATS COMMITTED THE BIGGEST VOTER FRAUD IN HISTORY………”

    Via the evidence I have seen thus far, I agree completely with both of those statements… Those statements are not hyperbole!

  185. 185
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: In addition Col Waldron is speaking of US Army cyber war operations, under penalty of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, thus the much harsher test of court martial.

    Is that true? He is retired from the US military so, unless he was revealing secrets he learned whilst on active duty I don’t think military justice has anything to do with it.

  186. 186
    bornagain77 says:

    Today, Col. Waldron’s testimony gained added heft when we got to see a declaration from an intelligence analyst at the 305th Military Intelligence Unit (“the Kraken” unit). The declaration has specific evidence showing that, on November 8, 2020, Dominionvotingsystems.com, which is Dominion Voting System’s proprietary URL, was connected over the internet to Belgrade, Iran, China – and to “the Indivisible (formerly ACORN) political group for Obama.”
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/12/evidence_supports_sidney_powells_claim_about_global_election_fraud.html
    Here is the declaration,,,
    https://www.scribd.com/document/485933370/gov-uscourts-mied-350905-1-15#from_embed

  187. 187
    Bob O'H says:

    Es58 @

    So then you’re suggesting that it is expected that these claims might get to some court where they might have some impact? And, what, if any, impact can be expected after certification?

    Several of the TCF affidavits did get into court, but the judge wasn’t impressed. He heard evidence that they didn’t know what they were talking about, e.g. they hadn’t attended the training session that had been organised. And he had an affidavit from a person who had worked on elections for decades, and was also at the TCF centre, which he found more credible (for reasons he explains).

  188. 188
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: U/D’s 2, 3, 4 to OP on the MI hearings, Dobbs’ revelation on trailer loads of ballots from NY to PA [HT BA77], and a short geostrategic backgrounder. KF

  189. 189
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: The declaration has specific evidence showing that, on November 8, 2020,

    So, well after the election.

    Dominionvotingsystems.com, which is Dominion Voting System’s proprietary URL

    Their servers, NOT their voting machines. In some sense ANY server on the internet is ‘connected’ to any other server because it’s a giant web.

    was connected over the internet to Belgrade, Iran, China – and to “the Indivisible (formerly ACORN) political group for Obama.”

    But not Germany. Does Dominion have work going on in Belgrade, Iran or China?

  190. 190
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, see BA77. I had linked it earlier. The Col speaks as expert and witness to the relevant traffic and military obligations are effectively lifelong. It is unlikely that references to an unleashed Kraken, in the context of a unit with that nickname, are mere coincidence. I suspect, signalling behaviour. KF

  191. 191
    Sandy says:

    NY *sent 26×2=52 pallets with mail in ballots to be counted in PA. FBI can solve the mystery in few hours. We have an employee and a number of trailer ,how hard can be to find out the employer and ask him few questions ? 🙂

  192. 192
    JVL says:

    If the voting fraud affidavits are not getting into courts (and why would that be?) then why are the Trumpsters talking about them so much? Are they using them to whip up righteous indignation?

    You have to admit, Uncle Rudy and Sidney Powell are pursuing their stated goals very strangely IF they have loads of evidence.

  193. 193
    JVL says:

    Sandy: NY *sent 26×2=52 pallets with mail in ballots to be counted in PA. FBI can solve the mystery in few hours. We have an employee and a number of trailer ,how hard can be to find out the employer and ask him few questions ? ?

    Perhaps they have already looked at it. The Attorney General of the US (a Trump ally) has said that there have been investigations and nothing has been found that could have an effect on the outcome of the election.

  194. 194
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, the oral testimony specifically identified Dominion and traffic to Frankfurt, Germany being witnessed. In any case, such ‘net traffic didn’t ought ter be dere, period. Likewise, fractions of votes. The further witnesses who traced ethernet cables in voting centres and issues on the hollowness of claimed air gaps point to the Internet connectivity that further compromises the system. Why not go through the live notes on testimony above? KF

  195. 195
    bornagain77 says:

    Ha Ha Ha, Veritas strikes again!

    SURPRISE! James O’Keefe pops into CNN staff call, tells Jeff Zucker he’s been recording calls for months
    “We’ve got a lot of recordings that indicate you’re not really that independent of a journalist.”
    – December 1, 2020
    https://thegreggjarrett.com/surprise-james-okeefe-pops-into-cnn-staff-call-tells-jeff-zucker-hes-been-recording-calls-for-months/

    #CNNTapes
    https://www.projectveritas.com/news/cnntapes-reveal-networks-bias-against-president-trump-tucker-carlson-he/

  196. 196
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, contrast the treatment of the Steele Dossier and Mrs Clinton’s 30k emails on duration and intensity of investigation. Then watch the vid and come back to us on what legitimate, innocent credible answer there is on a trailer load of ballots going NY to PA during an election. At this point, official statements need to be scrutinised, given currently emerging evidence and bland declarations on the most secure election ever. No way, given the effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots and ballot harvesting by 3rd parties. Something is deeply wrong. KF

  197. 197
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, several clips were already linked above at 172. BTW, NY and GA are apparently one party consent states for recording phone conversations, Mr O’Keefe would count as the one party to the conference calls in question. KF

  198. 198
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Gateway Pundit reports on a press conference with vid (so, watch the vid):

    One of the whistleblowers, a USPS subcontractor, Jesse Morgan, drives a route from Lancaster, PA to Bethpage, NY to Harrisburg, PA, and back to Lancaster.

    “On October 21, he arrived at Bethpage where he saw 24 gaylords (large cardboard containers used by USPS) and was told they contained mail-in ballots. [–> that would not be, pre-printed forms for such ballots, which would not go in mail bins] He saw 24 gaylords containing bulk mail bins filled with identically-sized ballot envelopes stacked crosswise, which likely contained 144,000-288,000 ballots or more,” Amistad said. “He could see it contained handwritten return addresses and one was even marked Certified Mail, prompting the expediter to remark that the person must have really wanted the ballot to get to its destination. Both of these observations revealed the ballots had already been completed and were being returned to be counted.”

    Amistad continued on to explain that “Mr. Morgan got to Harrisburg at 9:15 a.m., ballots in tow, but was forced to sit in the USPS yard until 3:00 p.m. When he went inside to speak with someone because his hours were about to expire, a self- identified ‘transportation supervisor’ made himself known and instructed Jesse to drive the whole load to Lancaster without unloading the portion intended for Harrisburg. The ‘transportation supervisor’ would not provide him with a written slip, saying he would need to unload in Harrisburg in order to receive a slip. Morgan drove to Lancaster under orders from the Harrisburg postal supervisor, unhooked the trailer in the normal place, parked his tractor in the normal place, and went home.”

    The next day, his trailer, the only trailer he ever used on his Bethpage route, was gone.

    “Mr. Morgan experienced several odd behaviors by a select group of USPS personnel which postal experts in sworn statements indicate grossly deviate from normal procedure and behavior,” Amistad said. “The experts and investigators conclude that this behavior likely reflects concern by those aware of the potential illegal behavior and their attempts to prevent discovery of that behavior.” . . .

    A second whistleblower, Nathan Pease of Madison, Wisconsin, was also a USPS subcontractor. He says that on November 4 and November 5, two separate postal workers informed him that the USPS was gathering tens of thousands of ballots and backdating the postmarks to November 3 so that they may be counted — despite the deadline already passing.

    “Mr. Pease’s sworn statement coincides in time with a dramatic ballot dump on the morning of November 5 which heavily favored Mr. Biden and which has caused significant controversy within the expert community regarding the statistical probability of the late insertion of tens of thousands of ballots in favor of a single candidate on the morning after the election,” Amistad Project said in a statement.

    This last, is the trailer mentioned already.

    KF

  199. 199
    Bob O'H says:

    ba77 @ 186 – how do we know that this doesn’t just mean that people in Belgrade, Iran, and China visited Dominion’s website?

    BTW, you do know that the 305th Military Intelligence Battalion’s job is to do basic training?

  200. 200
    mike1962 says:

    “When I hear people use the record of courts denying hearings, denying relief, denying discovery, as their argument against issues in this election, I am reminded — what was MLK’s record in court? The corruption of power is the problem, not evidence [that] there is no problem.”

    https://twitter.com/Barnes_Law/status/1333989164929355777

  201. 201
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, the oral testimony is on election traffic being seen. Second, a training unit by definition will have highly qualified experts in it capable of the required white hat hacking. Where, I add, these are not Seal Team 6 raiders and shooters, these are hackers; who need to keep their hands in in a fast-moving technology environment or they will be disqualified automatically through staleness. I think the daily count on fresh malware items alone is up to the 1,000’s. 20 years ago I was shocked at 200 per week. The underlying issue is, you are dealing with sworn, affidavit based testimony. KF

  202. 202
  203. 203
    bornagain77 says:

    Attention KF,,, Michigan Senate to hear Gulliani this evening

    Programming Alert: Live Coverage for Giuliani’s Testimony in Michigan Election Hearing
    President Donald Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani will testify on election fraud allegations in front of the Michigan State House on Wednesday.

    The event is scheduled to start at 6 p.m. ET. The Epoch Times and NTD will livestream the event.

    Where to Watch on Dec. 2 at 6 p.m. ET:

    NTD YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/NTDTV

    The Epoch Times YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/epochtimesdigital

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/programming-alert-live-coverage-for-giulianis-testimony-in-michigan-election-hearing_3601544.html

    As well, tomorrow Georgia’s Senate will be holding hearings which will also be live streamed

    Two committees in the Georgia State Senate announced that they will hold back-to-back hearings on elections processes on Dec. 3.
    The Senate Government Oversight Committee and the Georgia Senate Committee on Judiciary said the hearings would take place at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. respectively and would be live-streamed.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/georgia-senate-committees-to-hold-hearings-on-elections-processes_3601388.html

    And again, Epoch Times has a excellent state by state breakdown of breaking news for voter fraud investigation

    ELECTION OUTCOME UNCLEAR AMID PENDING RECOUNTS AND LEGAL CHALLENGES
    Click on state for details.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com

    Of related note to the breaking news from ‘Amistad”,,,

    Up to 280,000 Ballots ‘Disappeared’ After Trip to Pennsylvania From NY: Amistad Project Director
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/up-to-280000-ballots-disappeared-after-being-transported-from-ny-to-pennsylvania-amistad-project-director_3600718.html

    Amistad’s Phil Kline, on Laura Ingraham’s show Monday, said that he will have more bombshell revelations coming over the next few days,,, that is to say, more bombshell revelations one top of the one he revealed in yesterday via the USPS whistleblowers,,,

  204. 204
    kairosfocus says:

    I see Epoch Times is going to a walled garden model.

  205. 205
    Sandy says:

    Perhaps they have already looked at it. The Attorney General of the US (a Trump ally) has said that there have been investigations and nothing has been found that could have an effect on the outcome of the election.

    …there are thousands of witnesses and number increase every day and fbi cia already looked at it? Of course not. It’s the swamp saying that it smells like roses.
    We know how quickly acted fbi about “russian collusion” against Trump(Obama so incompetent to secure elections? outsmarted by russians ?). We see now fbi is invisible against Biden. We understand. We are not born yesterday.

  206. 206
    Bob O'H says:

    kf –

    BO’H, the oral testimony is on election traffic being seen.

    But how do we know that? I can’t see anything in the affidavit saying this.

    Second, a training unit by definition will have highly qualified experts in it capable of the required white hat hacking.

    They would, presumably, be trained in that and not in finding out where missiles have been fired. I don’t think surface to air missiles are usually Wifi enabled, so their relevance to the person’s expertise isn’t clear.

  207. 207
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H: Simply listen to the tape. Do you imagine that lying in the general context will not be taken as impeaching the affidavit? And, repeat cyber security. KF

  208. 208
    AndyClue says:

    @bornagain:

    > The declaration has specific evidence showing that, on November 8, 2020, Dominionvotingsystems.com, which is Dominion Voting System’s proprietary URL, was

    Do we have any evidence that dominionvotingsystems.com is still Dominion’s?
    The Waybackmachine in the presentation shows a redirect to dominionvoting.com in 2011 (!), which makes sense, if they planned to give up the domain name. (https://pttgopolitics.com/hatepolitics/M.1606056823.A.255.html or https://web.archive.org/web/20201101000000*/dominionvotingsystems.com)

  209. 209
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: JVL, the oral testimony specifically identified Dominion and traffic to Frankfurt, Germany being witnessed. In any case, such ‘net traffic didn’t ought ter be dere, period.

    So, there is no conceivable, good reason that Dominion, apart from the voting, should be talking to Germany? Really? How can you tell, IF there was traffic, that it had anything to do with voting results?

    Likewise, fractions of votes.

    Disputed and, in fact, only flagged up by one person who INITIALLY said it was Dominion but then changed his mind later because he couldn’t remember which companies were acting where.

    The further witnesses who traced ethernet cables in voting centres and issues on the hollowness of claimed air gaps point to the Internet connectivity that further compromises the system.

    Has that testimony been admitted into a court of law? Has that claimant been cross-examined to make sure what they think they saw they saw?

    JVL, contrast the treatment of the Steele Dossier and Mrs Clinton’s 30k emails on duration and intensity of investigation.

    Different issue, different conversation. When examining a potential crime other situations are not relevant.

    Then watch the vid and come back to us on what legitimate, innocent credible answer there is on a trailer load of ballots going NY to PA during an election.

    The truth of that has not been established! Remember some of the claims have turned out to have perfectly reasonable and innocent explanations. Remember too that all these accusations have been ‘out there’ for quite a while and that the US Attorney General (a friend of Donald Trump) has publicly stated in his official capacity that they have been checking on things and have yet to find anything significant. Are you publicly accusing him of lying? Would you do so under oath?

    At this point, official statements need to be scrutinised, given currently emerging evidence and bland declarations on the most secure election ever.

    Fine, if it helps clear things up, go for it.

    No way, given the effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots and ballot harvesting by 3rd parties.

    Again, an unsubstantiated claim. Which you choose to believe whereas I’ll wait until it’s confirmed.

    “On October 21, he arrived at Bethpage where he saw 24 gaylords (large cardboard containers used by USPS) and was told they contained mail-in ballots.”

    “He was told . . . ” C’mon guys, that’s not very solid. Anyway, has anyone spoken to the postal service about what was in the loads?

    “The experts and investigators conclude that this behavior likely reflects concern by those aware of the potential illegal behavior and their attempts to prevent discovery of that behavior.”

    They could have been smuggling iPhones and lied to the driver, just said something to shut him up.

    the oral testimony is on election traffic being seen.

    How can you tell it’s election traffic? Does it wave little signs as it goes by? AND, one of the observers clearly said they could NOT tell if it was election traffic.

    Simply listen to the tape. Do you imagine that lying in the general context will not be taken as impeaching the affidavit?

    Just because someone THINKS they saw something doesn’t make it so. How many people have sworn up and down that they’ve seen a UFO or even been captured by aliens? How many people claim to be psychic? How many people claim they can dowse for water? How many people think Homeopathy helps them? Or acupuncture? How many people believe in ghosts? How many people believe in evil possession? When ever any of those things are carefully tested and scrutinised the incident has a simpler explanation or the effect disappears!

    Carefully check the stories, talk to the pertinent employers, supervisors, etc and see if there isn’t a plausible, perfectly innocent explanation for what was observed. All of us who are parents have learned how to do this with our children when they were young. I’m not saying some adults are children but confirmation bias is a powerful thing: when you see something ambiguous and you’re looking for something nefarious it’s easy to ascribe evil intent when there is none.

    How many of you would be glad to, publicly under oath, accuse the Attorney General of lying? How about the Dominion employees? How about the USPS? How about all the government officials from all the contested states that have said there was little to no fraud? How about Mr Krebs who was fired for saying what he thought was true. Your hypothesis involves literally thousands of people you think are guilty of crimes. If you hesitate at all before saying yes then ask yourself why? Are you afraid of the conspiracy blowing back on you or is there still some tiny bit of doubt, that maybe we haven’t seen the whole picture yet?

  210. 210
    kairosfocus says:

    AC, see the oral testimony and corroborating testimony indicating unacknowledged Internet access for the voting-tabulation etc network. Similarly, note the fractional votes in the reporting stream to the media as can be seen in the previous OP. A traffic jump from 7 Gb/s to 10 Gb/s traffic level is not consistent with a moribund site or the typical spoof site or the like (see no 10 above); that’s a good slice of an optical fibre’s capacity. And much more. KF

  211. 211
    kairosfocus says:

    PS: Folks, remember always, the wider context that is being so consistently side-stepped and buried under tangential commentary by objectors, where the main issues lie, the failed moral duty challenge:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    My conclusion is, that either the US immediately faces and deals with the contentious reality of a deeply flawed, tainted election or else it faces consequences of sending the message to dozens of millions that no US election going forward is credible — and witnesses coming forward yesterday were quite clear that they were deeply concerned on just that. Such, starts with the GA runoff in several weeks’ time.

  212. 212
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: Amistad’s Phil Kline, on Laura Ingraham’s show Monday, said that he will have more bombshell revelations coming over the next few days,,, that is to say, more bombshell revelations one top of the one he revealed in yesterday via the USPS whistleblowers,,,

    Sounds familiar. We’ll see if it materialises and if it makes it into a court of law.

  213. 213
    kairosfocus says:

    U/D5, ordinary people vs the media narrative.

  214. 214
    bornagain77 says:

    AC, I’m not getting into the weeds with Dominion. I supplied that link as a courtesy to KF. I am sitting in the nosebleed section as far as that line of evidence is concerned.

    Right now I am far more interested in the eyewitness testimonies that have consistently testified to widespread voter fraud.

    For instance, I find it interesting that in the Mich. senate hearing yesterday, the Democratic Senators would surely have brought forth any eyewitnesses they had to counter the very, very, many claims of widespread voter fraud in Mich. .

    They brought forth none!

    Why has no eyewitness come forth for them? Surely they would not have let such jaw-dropping and shocking claims of widespread voter fraud go unchallenged if they could have done so with their own eyewitnesses?

    The Democrats did not provide any witnesses!

    In fact, so damning is this testimony against them, I’m surprised they did not unscrupously try to supply at least a few false witnesses.

    They did not even do that.

    As such, I hold the testimony given yesterday to be, by and large, extremely trustworthy and correct,,,

    Here are my notes on the eyewitness testimony in MIch. that I was able to collect yesterday,,, when I was able to get away from my work long enough to take notes,,,

    That was chilling,,,, ‘overriding’, via inserting 1-1-20 date, and then loading fraudulent votes for Biden directly into the system,,,

    next witness saw In your face cheating on ballots,,,, with photos, and license plate number to back her testimony up

    according to witness, not one poll watcher challenge was ever accepted,,, all challenges she saw were simply denied no matter what,,,

    next witness validated that no challenges were ever accepted,,,

    next witness testified that a totally questionable ballot was given to Biden,,,, after appealling to ‘supervisor’, she was screamed at for objecting,,,

    Military ballots all had date of 01/01/1900 entered into computer, all votes she could see were for Biden (of note, Biden is about as popular in the military as SPAM is 🙂 )

    Dominion tech hire,,, “What I saw at TCF was complete fraud”, stacks of ballots were run over and over, up to 10 times,,, She did not see a single ballot for Donald Trump the entire time she was there,,,

    Poll challenger, democratic challengers were allowed to sit at the table. republicans challengers were not allowed within 6 feet.

    immigrant Poll challenger, after denigrating her for having English as her second language and being an immigrant, she was removed by police officers although she had done nothing wrong,,, she saw many other republican poll challengers being removed by police officers,,,,

    Poll challenger, saw many violations of law, “Democrats ‘cheered’ when late arriving ballots (50 boxes) arrived, WHY???,,, It was “Pure and calculated fraud.”

    tech expert,,, Open hole in the election computer system which can bypass verification checks, similar to someone having open access to your credit card,,,,

    (Person with Christian T-Shirt was discriminated against and kicked out, same with Trump attire, while BLM masks, BLM attire, and Biden T-Shirts and attire were allowed),,,

    Poll worker, ‘during training as a poll worker he was told to use 6 ft distance rule as a ‘weapon’ against republicans poll challengers”, trainer laughed and said ‘exactly, not unless they brought their binoculars” when it was pointed out that they could not see the ballots from 6 feet away,,, told to use police as a ‘first resort’ to remove challengers,,, provisional ballots were used to mislead Trump voters that their votes would be counted,,,

    poll watcher, “It was a circus in there”,,, “parade of BLM” no Trump attire allowed,,, “it was ridiculous”

    witness,,,, Every single tabulator was connected to the internet, we saw the router with our very own eyes,,, when confronted, the ‘officials’ denied it was connected to internet,,, demanded full forensic accounting,,, pleaded to not send electors,,, democrat leaders should also demand full audit in order to heal the nation,,,, until then half the nation will not accept the election as legitimate,,,

    witness: I was there until they ‘stopped the count’,,,, not physically possible to count all the ballots they said they counted during that time,,,,

    witness, 6 feet distance rule was used as a ‘excuse’ by democrats to throw republican poll workers out,,, Trump was up by 10%, my monitor went down in the middle of the night, voting system was rebooted,, data dump,,, saw that Trump ballots were removed from tabulation pile,,,,

    witness, they were not following written procedures,,, inside ballots did not match outside envelope, they manually wrote the number on by hand,,,

    witness; purposely blocking the views of republican poll watchers,,, legitimate challenges were completely ignored,,, it was a ‘mock election’

    witness: I was there when they were boarding up the windows,,, only republican and non-partisan workers were excluded, no democrats were ever kicked out for anything,,, that by itself is enough to overturn the election,,,, ‘no one I know believes that this was a fair election’,,,

    witness: TCF poll challenger,,, witnessed 500 ballots given to ladies to illegally ‘backdate’,,, stacks of 50 ballots were run through the tabulators.multiple times,,, witnessed military ballots with ‘Biden only’ vote, no down ballot,,, no Trump votes were seen in the military ballots,,,

    witness: saw truckload of ballots come in between 3:30 and 4:00 AM, driver said he did not know where all the ballots came from,,,

    witness: 80% of ballots were closed with packaging tape,,, 5 democratic lawyers,,, I was the only republican in the whole room

    witness: heard that 10’s of thousands of ballots had arrived after election deadline, he drove down as a poll watcher to see and witnessed the ballots were not like the other ballots, missing information, etc.., also witnessed 1/1/1900 entered on many of the ‘illegal’ ballots,,,

    witness: the harassment of republicans was ‘official’,,,,

    witness: I was a poll chairman and then watcher, there needs to be a forensic analysis, simply because very many numbers did not match,,,, voter and ballot don’t go together,,,

    witness: TCF was very hostile. 6 feet rule was used arbitrarily against republicans,,, but not democrats,,, saw cardboard put up to block view of republicans who wanted to see how the late arriving truckload of ‘illegal’ ballots was going to be handled,,,

    ‘expert’ witness: overt bias against republicans for decades in urban Mich,,, many ballots were not even folded,,, precincts in urban areas systematically don’t ‘balance’ their votes, recount should ‘open boxes’ in urban areas to get a honest audit. A honest audit or recount cannot happen at the level they conducted it at,,,,, 71% of Detroit ‘can’t be recounted’,,, asked for a forensic audit,,, says that we have sufficient laws on the books, says that the problem is that Democrats don’t enforce and follow the laws in the areas they control,,, Democrats can’t or won’t balance their elections,,,, Democrats won’t protect republican poll watchers from harassment, (‘officially’ encourage their harrassment). Current fake audit, does not take into account the 71% of ‘unbalanced’ Democratic precincts,,, If ‘Democrats did their job’, there currently would be no problem with fraud,,, clarification, 71% of absentee votes are not recountable. Only 28 % of in person votes are not recountable. (this expert witness will be brought back to the senate for a more thorough investigation)

    witness: I saw a lot of fraud take place, multiple inconsistencies, contacted lawyers and lawyers did not correct them,,, after late night Ballot dump everything changed from republican to democrats despite sizable leads for republicans,,, was not allowed in to see what was happening with ‘illegal’ ballots at TCF, saw pizza boxes being put on windows, heard from a Detroit police officer that police officers were ‘instructed’ to arrest Trump supporters,,,

    witness at TCF ,,, eyewitness testimony from others at TCF is accurate,,, suggests camera systems for future elections,,,,

    witness at TCF: ,,, saw discrepancy,,, supervisor ‘send it through anyway’… ,,, a lawyer was told to leave for asking about the count, everybody instructed to leave, would not let relief workers in, pizza boxes were then put up on windows ,,,

    Chairman adjourned hearing,,,

    Again, why did the Senate Democrats of Mich. not offer any rebuttal witnesses? Surely if they had any witnesses to testify to the contrary they would have brought them forth. This is simply devastating.

    If the same type of testimony were received in a murder trial, i.e. testimony of multiple witness testifying that they had all seen the defendant commit the murder from numerous different angles, and the murderer presented no witness, or any evidence, to the contrary, the trial would be over and the murderer swiftly convicted.

    Again, this type of eyewitness testimony, with no defense even offered against it, (nor was it even suggested that they might have eyewitnesses come forward in the future to contradict the claims), is simply completely devastating to the Democrat’s claim that their is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. In fact, it completely blows their claim that there is no evidence for widespread voter fraud completely out of the water.

    As to this crime’s weight in the law, and since this specific crime undermines the foundation of our election process, I hold this crime to be on the same level of the crime as treason against United States itself is,,,,

    Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

    Democrats with integrity should be just as upset, indeed more upset since it is their party that is involved.

  215. 215
    Viola Lee says:

    Somewhere above someone wrote, “Are they using them to whip up righteous indignation?” as a reason why all these allegations are being spread around without actually showing up in court. I think one of the reasons is that they are being used to whip up cash contributions to help fund, among other things, Trump’s campaign debts. The whole things is being used successfully as a cash cow even if it’s not being successful in the courts.

  216. 216
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, my comment is that that there are facts on the table, and the witnesses need to be taken seriously but I have been explicit, from the previous thread, the primary case is the moral duty challenge on public facts that has been failed. Failed in a way that is tantamount to knowing wrongful intent. That puts us in the position of the leading democratic state having to address a deeply flawed election now or else face dozens of millions convinced for cauyse that no elections going forward will be credible. The latter is where you

    do.

    not.

    ever.

    want.

    to.

    go.

    The issues obtain, even were there perfect perfomance in TCF and other centres for voting, tallying etc.

    KF

    PS: Again, the core challenge:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

  217. 217
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: My conclusion is, that either the US immediately faces and deals with the contentious reality of a deeply flawed, tainted election or else it faces consequences of sending the message to dozens of millions that no US election going forward is credible — and witnesses coming forward yesterday were quite clear that they were deeply concerned on just that.

    Why not examine all the claims, interview the pertinent people and participants, put everything in the public record and see IF the election was tainted? Oh, that’s right, you’ve already decided.

    The real problem is that The Trumpster has convinced a large group of people that there was fraud so no matter what happens someone will be angry and untrusting of the next election. Thank goodness more and more Republicans are jumping off the sinking ship. Trust a politician to save their own skin before going down with the vessel.

  218. 218
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, you again duck the main reason why I conclude deep, wrongful intent driven tainting. I remind you again, this is based on public facts not in dispute:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    yes, onward testimony is important and just yesterday I spent considerable time in effect live blogging on such as can be seen above, so did BA77. Such fits in with what I am warning about but it does not have ability to overturn it. TCF etc could have been perfectly run on tainted effectively uncontrolled mail in ballots the election would still be fatally flawed. The unprofessional conduct being multiply attested to simply augments the main point. Such includes the questions on the technology and its results including of course fractional value votes.

    KF

    PS: As a reminder, from the testimony of experts clipped in Ms Powell’s MI filing:

    129. Mr. Ramsland’s analysis of the raw data , which provides votes counts, rather
    than just vote shares, in decimal form provides highly probative evidence that, in his
    professional opinion, demonstrates that Dominion manipulated votes through the use of an
    “additive” or “Ranked Choice Voting” algorithm (or what Dominion’s user guide refers to as
    the “RCV Method”). See id. at ¶12. 12 Mr. Ramsland presents the following example of this data
    – taken from “Dominion’s direct feed to news outlets” – in the table below.

    Id.
    state timestamp eevp trump biden TV BV
    michigan 2020-11-04T06:54:48Z 64 0.534 0.448 1925865.66 1615707.52
    michigan 2020-11-04T06:56:47Z 64 0.534 0.448 1930247.664 1619383.808
    michigan 2020-11-04T06:58:47Z 64 0.534 0.448 1931413.386 1620361.792
    michigan 2020-11-04T07:00:37Z 64 0.533 0.45 1941758.975 1639383.75
    michigan 2020-11-04T07:01:46Z 64 0.533 0.45 1945297.562 1642371.3
    michigan 2020-11-04T07:03:17Z 65 0.533 0.45 1948885.185 1645400.25

    130. Mr. Ramsland describes how the RCV algorithm can be implemented, and the
    significance of the use of fractional vote counts, with decimal places, rather than whole numbers,
    in demonstrating that Dominion did just that to manipulate Michigan votes.

    Relevant votes come by the ones, so this is direct reason to believe something is very wrong with the software. that goes back 20 years as I showed in the previous thread.

  219. 219
    Viola Lee says:

    Back at 187, Bob linked to an actual case (thanks, Bob) where evidence was considered by the judge, which I found interesting reading, as it shows how flimsy and in fact wrong quite a few times the challengers were in their affidavits. My guess is that this would be the general result when/if more of this stuff winds up before a judge.

  220. 220
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: Mr. Ramsland presents the following example of this data
    – taken from “Dominion’s direct feed to news outlets” – in the table below.

    Has anyone asked Dominion why the numbers appear that way? Probably not. So how do you know there isn’t a simple and innocent reason that the data formatting is done that way? You see decimals, you call foul. How come the networks didn’t call foul? How come none of the major news reporters didn’t call foul? Oh, that’s right, there are literally thousands upon thousands of people, Democrats and Republicans in on the plot. My bad.

  221. 221
    JVL says:

    Michigan State’s voting fact check page. I know, I know, why trust them, they’re in on it too. Thousands of people are in on it, maybe millions. Republicans and Democrats. All lying through their teeth because they hate Donald Trump.

    https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1633_100423_102534_102535—,00.html

  222. 222
    bornagain77 says:

    U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) issued the following statement in support of the U.S. Supreme Court hearing an emergency appeal challenging the election results in Pennsylvania:

    “Today, an emergency appeal was filed in the U.S. Supreme Court challenging the election results in Pennsylvania. This appeal raises serious legal issues, and I believe the Court should hear the case on an expedited basis.

    “The Pennsylvania Constitution requires in-person voting, except in narrow and defined circumstances. Late last year, the Pennsylvania Legislature passed a law that purported to allow universal mail-in voting, notwithstanding the Pennsylvania Constitution’s express prohibition.

    “This appeal argues that Pennsylvania cannot change the rules in the middle of the game. If Pennsylvania wants to change how voting occurs, the state must follow the law to do so.

    “The illegality was compounded by a partisan Democrat Supreme Court in Pennsylvania, which has issued multiple decisions that reflect their political and ideological biases. Just over a month ago, Justice Alito, along with Justice Thomas and Justice Gorsuch, wrote-correctly, I believe-concerning the Pennsylvania court’s previous decision to count ballots received after Election Day, that ‘there is a strong likelihood that the State Supreme Court decision violates the Federal Constitution.’

    “In the current appeal, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court dismissed the claim based on a legal doctrine called ‘laches,’ which essentially means the plaintiffs waited too long to bring the challenge. But, the plaintiffs reasonably argue that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court has not applied that doctrine consistently and so they cannot selectively enforce it now.

    “Even more persuasively, the plaintiffs point out that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court has also held that plaintiffs don’t have standing to challenge an election law until after the election, meaning that the court effectively put them in a Catch-22: before the election, they lacked standing; after the election, they’ve delayed too long. The result of the court’s gamesmanship is that a facially unconstitutional election law can never be judicially challenged.

    “Ordinarily, the U.S. Supreme Court would stay out of election disputes, especially concerning state law. But these are not ordinary times.

    “As of today, according to Reuters/Ipsos polling, 39 percent of Americans believe that ‘the election was rigged.’ That is not healthy for our democracy. The bitter division and acrimony we see across the nation needs resolution. And I believe the U.S. Supreme Court has a responsibility to the American people to ensure that we are following the law and following the Constitution. Hearing this case-now, on an emergency expedited basis-would be an important step in helping rebuild confidence in the integrity of our democratic system.”
    https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=5482&oRef=mixi

  223. 223
    bornagain77 says:

    JVL, I personally know that the facts thus far established directly contradict many of the claims in your cited propaganda piece for Mich. voting. i.e. dead voters,,, etc..

    Why would you not pay attention to facts that are established??? You are a completely partisan hack is my guess.

    My patience is thin with such antics.,,

  224. 224
    Viola Lee says:

    Irony alert!

  225. 225
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: JVL, I personally know that the facts thus far established directly contradict many of the claims in your cited propaganda piece for Mich. voting. i.e. dead voters,,, etc..

    Why would you not pay attention to facts that are established??? You are a completely partisan hack is my guess.

    Are you sure those are established facts? Could they not be misinterpretations or hearsay (there’s quite a bit of that in what I’ve seen) or simple mistakes?

    When I see two sides both absolutely convinced they are correct then I figure we should all listen to both sides, ask lots of questions of everyone and try and get to the bottom of it. Since most of what is posted here comes from the pro-fraud side I figure it’s instructive to point out that t’other side are also making statements some of which say: we checked on some of that, it’s not true. To me that’s saying that all the facts are NOT established or examined. Remember how some of what has been observed was misinterpreted as something nefarious when it wasn’t.

    It’s not my country, it’s not my vote. I could have voted but I decided NOT to try and impose my view on you guys. I’m happy to let y’all get on with it but it’s sad to see the country of my birth tear itself apart without first calming down and listening, gather all the evidence and data, and them make a call.

    Don’t execute the prisoner unless you’re very, very, very sure they are guilty, if at all. You can’t rescind an execution.

  226. 226
    bornagain77 says:

    No irony VL, you guys just ignore any evidence that contradicts your oft repeated claim of no evidence of widespread voter fraud. And then repeat the false claim, over and over, and over.

    It is a pathetic tactic that I encounter all the time in my debates with Darwinists!

    The claim of ‘no evidence’ is wearing very thin to the point of being insulting to any fair minded person.

    As the article I cited yesterday stated (after citing twenty lines (facts) of evidence), “Don’t spit in my face and tell me it is raining”,,,

    A compilation of twenty alleged election ‘facts’ that don’t pass the smell test
    By Andrea Widburg – November 30, 2020
    Excerpt: On behalf of all Trump voters, I say to the Democrats who are trying to gaslight us: Don’t spit in my face and tell me it’s raining.
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/a_compilation_of_twenty_alleged_election_facts_that_dont_pass_the_smell_test.html#ixzz6fGx6bx2h

    Of sobering, note as to how blatant ‘the steal’ actually was: ,,,The election ‘steal’ was, in many instances, as subtle as a mugging!

    Michigan Montage: elections observers at TCF testify on the massive Democrat fraud
    https://rumble.com/vbidk3-michigan-montage-elections-observers-at-tcf-testify-on-the-massive-democrat.html

    And again, in the hearing yesterday, the Mich. Democratic Senators offered ZERO witnesses of their own to counter these eye-witnesses, nor did they say any witnesses would be forthcoming in the future.

    Simply crushing!

    Of related note:, Michigan Senate to hear Gulliani this evening

    Programming Alert: Live Coverage for Giuliani’s Testimony in Michigan Election Hearing
    President Donald Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani will testify on election fraud allegations in front of the Michigan State House on Wednesday.

    The event is scheduled to start at 6 p.m. ET. The Epoch Times and NTD will livestream the event.

    Where to Watch on Dec. 2 at 6 p.m. ET:

    NTD YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/NTDTV

  227. 227
    Viola Lee says:

    BA, did you read the document Bob posted about an actual court case and what the judge said about the quality of the evidence presented by the challengers? So far, actual solid evidence presented to a court is almost non-existent. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see countless allegations without evidence as more the work of “partisan hacks” those those who are skeptical of those allegations unless the actual evidence is presented and evaluated by the legal system.

  228. 228
    bornagain77 says:

    Matt Braynard, his voter integrity project, surveyed tens of thousands of voters in battle-ground states. Many of whom say they never requested, nor received, mail-in ballots, that were ultimately cast in their name.
    Matt Braynard: What we are giving them, what we are giving to every one of our target states, attorney generals, the legislatures, the governors, secretary of state, is hard evidence of potentially illegal ballots cast in those states … not charts or line graphs … I sent the names, addresses, phone numbers, dates of birth, and voter record numbers of people who either had ballots cast in their name and said they didn’t, or did cast ballots, who shouldn’t have, because they didn’t meet residency requirements, or cast ballots in multiple states. And what we found in WI, GA, and AZ, the number of these ballots — individual voters we have identified — who have cast early absentee ballots in these states — surpassed the margin of victory. Which means nobody can honestly say for certain that Joe Biden won the election. Just on the basis of our data alone.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li5b3rxyMlk&feature=youtu.be&t=2122&fbclid=IwAR0w7PEd9DgVRPR5YlgmdvRMRlV9V-px5gWo2FbfqNi8lOawtarmbJ8GIA0

    Don’t tell me VL, let me guess, you still see no evidence for fraud do you???

  229. 229

    One wonders if our interlocutors were as fastidious and critical in their assessment of the claims when the Dems pursued the “Russia Collusion” conspiracy theory for 3.5 years?

    Still no one is even attempting to explain the enormous disparity in news media coverage.

    If this was being handled by the media the same way they did that hoax, there would be non-stop coverage, pundits on every half-hour calling for full forensic audits and investigations into everyone and every company associated with these claims, pundits calling for election officials and governors to be arrested and prosecuted for “China Collusion,” etc.

    If you cannot recognize the pack of dogs not barking right now, you’re either willfully blind to it or suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance.

  230. 230
    bornagain77 says:

    Attn KF:

    STOP THE FRAUD PRESS CONFERENCE: Lin Wood and Sidney Powell Schedule Presser Wednesday at 2:05 PM in Alpharetta, GA –LIVE STREAM RSBN VIDEO HERE
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/stop-fraud-press-conference-lin-wood-sidney-powell-schedule-presser-wednesday-205-pm-alpharetta-ga-live-stream-rsbn-video/
    video link
    https://youtu.be/Vs1r_eXuspM

  231. 231
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: And again, in the hearing yesterday, the Mich. Democratic Senators offered ZERO witnesses of their own to counter these eye-witnesses, nor did they say any witnesses would be forthcoming in the future.

    I can’t speak for the Michigan Democrats nor do I know the legislative schedule and what has been planned. Perhaps they’d rather wait to present their evidence to an actual civil court? We don’t know.

    I could counter with the fact that Uncle Rudy has NOT presented some of the affidavits as evidence in some of the cases he’s instigating. Why is that? Does that make sense? We don’t know.

    Look, can’t we all just calm down and let people have their say and then decide? Do we need to make a call right now? Is letting Biden take the office while things are being reviewed so bad?

    It’s not war level is it? I hope not.

  232. 232
    JVL says:

    William J Murray: Still no one is even attempting to explain the enormous disparity in news media coverage.

    Some sources have axes to grind. What else is there to say?

    If this was being handled by the media the same way they did that hoax, there would be non-stop coverage, pundits on every half-hour calling for full forensic audits and investigations into everyone and every company associated with these claims, pundits calling for election officials and governors to be arrested and prosecuted for “China Collusion,” etc.

    Just my perspective, limited admittedly: I think the European press at least has accepted that Biden won the election and the rest is just conspiracy theory. Don’t shoot me, I’m just telling you how it seems to me living in the UK. Increasingly, the pro-fraud crowd is considered to be in denial. Bitch, moan and whine about that, fine. I’m just telling you what the perception is. But, I have to add, every time a judge in the US slaps down a Trump camp lawsuit they do report that. Maybe Europeans trust their judicial branch more that you do, again I’m just relaying things.

    A good question being: do you trust your constitution or not?

  233. 233
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, we don’t have to ask Dominion (which has long been evasive and misleading . . . and did not take opportunity to answer questions from the PA legislators recently), it simply is the case that relevant votes are inherently integer; one man, one vote. Anything else is demonstrative that something was happening that should not have been happening; and the other thread gave context going back 20 years so, glitch cannot be claimed. . That is enough to indict the software. Multiply by the underlying TX tests, and the conclusions regarding vulnerabilities and things coming from testimony. The gadgetry is vulnerable, non-transparent and dubious, not fit for supposed purpose. KF

  234. 234
    AndyClue says:

    @kairosfocus:

    > AC, see the oral testimony and corroborating testimony indicating (…)

    I was talking specifically about the Waybackmachine-screenshot in the report. Nothing more. The oral testimony doesn’t help. We can look at the different years here: https://web.archive.org/web/20200801000000*/dominionvotingsystems.com
    There’s a clear indication, that the site was not in use for several years and Dominion probably unregistered it at least two years ago. A history of all the whois-entries reaching back to 2011 might help to solve the mystery.

  235. 235
    AndyClue says:

    @JVL:

    > Hundreds? Really? There would be loads of police and hospital and morgue and funeral homes records then.

    I’ve never claimed, that hundreds were murdered. There were reports about women being murdered after they were raped (e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Maria_Ladenburger).

  236. 236
    Viola Lee says:

    BA writes, “Don’t tell me VL, let me guess, you still see no evidence for fraud do you???”

    The Lou Dobbs show is not a court of law. If that person has really sent all that evidence to attorney generals et al, as he claims, then it ought to precipitate a court case where the evidence can be presented and evaluated. Just hearing about it on the Lou Dobbs show is not sufficient to consider it valid, I think.

  237. 237
    bornagain77 says:

    Thanks for proving my point VL and JVL.

    The live stream has started,,,

    LIVE: Sidney Powell, Lin Wood attend ‘Stop the Steal’ rally in Georgia (Dec. 2) | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8VIB_DxlrE

  238. 238
    Viola Lee says:

    A group called “We the People” have published a petition that in part says the following.

    Do you folks here (BA, KF, William, Sandy, Jerry, ET, and others), endorse this idea?

    When the legislators, courts and/or Congress fail to do their duty under the 12th Amendment, you must be ready Mr. President to immediately declare a limited form of Martial Law, and temporarily suspend the Constitution and civilian control of these federal elections, for the sole purpose of having the military oversee a national re-vote. A vote that assures a fair election in every jurisdiction and reflects the true will of the people. Federal candidates only. Paper ballots. No computers. Hand-counted with both parties watching every vote. Only registered voters. Photo ID to prove residence. Conducted safely with everyone wearing masks and six feet apart, just like we did in Ohio. Only then can the winning candidate be accepted as legitimate by a true majority of We the People who must give our consent to be justly governed! Unfortunately we are at a point where we can only trust our military to do this because our corrupt political class and courts have proven their inability to act fairly and within the law.

  239. 239
    bornagain77 says:

    Scary times eh VL? It is as if the American people object very strenuously when their vote, i.e. their right to self govern,,, is stolen from them,,,,

    Bet you wonder why so many Americans won’t just shut up and take the stealing of their votes as a normal way of life.,,,,

    I bet you, like the Nazis and Russians did, severely underestimate the resolve of Americans to right that which is injust.

  240. 240
    Viola Lee says:

    Comparing me to the Nazi’s, are you? Are you aware that there are many people, such as myself, that think that we also are “we the people”, and that the the ideas expressed in that petition are totally antithetical to many fundamental principles of our country.

  241. 241
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: John C Wright (a lawyer BTW) and commenters have their usual sobering thoughts. I, of course, would balance them by pointing to Ac 27. The US and so also the world, is now in an Ac 27 storm. In that context, we should ponder geostrategic issues as I noted on in OP, U/D4. The geopolitical considerations here, may also help, though I think things are a bit more complex, cf. here. KF

  242. 242
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, for very good reason the US framers did not go for snap elections and force re-votes until the dominant power factions get what they want; what was finally used to wreck the Wiemar Republic. That is why there are several built-in backstops (the final being Congress voting by state delegations, 1 state, 1 vote); backstops that, though unpalatable are far preferable to sending the message that is now on the table to dozens of millions. Namely, that dominant factions of the power classes are perfectly willing to not only resist sound reforms of a long since substandard way of running elections — I keep saying, the system would fail a benchmark against how a run of the mill coop bank handles cash and accounts — but this year insisted on a destructively fraud-prone means to flood targeted pivotal points with bogus, no chain of control, false mail-in ballots. This over-reach may well put in as apparent . . . arguably, mirage . . . victor the man with an albatross around his neck and an extremely radical and unpopular running mate. But, it will not overwhelm the force of the grim resolve of dozens of millions that they will not tolerate such a cynical nomenklatura of oligarchs who would turn every election going forward into another mirage of popular support backed by convenient media censorship, singing off the same hymn sheets and SA-like thugs in the streets and election centres. My thought is that the 1960 option of just quietly take the cheat is off the table because of the not so hidden agenda at work. Something like 1876 is feasible, but if such is not done, hang on for a shift from bleeding Kansas to full blown civil conflict. That is the magnitude of the folly of the current power classes. KF

    PS, now you begin to know how it feels to be routinely slandered as a nazi.

  243. 243
    JVL says:

    AndyClue: I’ve never claimed, that hundreds were murdered.

    Comment 88 by AndyClue, this thread:

    The Syrians Merkel imported have been raping and in part murdering hundreds of young German women.

  244. 244
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: JVL, we don’t have to ask Dominion (which has long been evasive and misleading

    That’s right, we don’t have to listen to the accused to find out their side of the story.

    Well done. It’s always easier if you bypass the rules of law.

  245. 245
    bornagain77 says:

    VL states “the ideas expressed in that petition are totally antithetical to many fundamental principles of our country.”

    Really????

    Hmmm,,, I seem to recall this founding principle in the Declaration of Independence,,,, “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, ”

    That principle comes right after this “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”,,,

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    Tell me the truth VL, do you believe our rights are derived from men are do you believe that our rights are derived from God?

    If you do not believe that our rights are derived from God, but are derived from men, then, contrary to what you claim, you do not really believe in the fundamental principle that this country is and was built upon.

    And if men, in their lust for power, steal our God given right, steal an American’s God given right, to vote, i.e. to self govern,,,,, if men, in their lust for power, and by widespread voter fraud, abuse that God given right,,,, then, as the Declaration of Independence itself says, “it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,”,,,

    Institute a new government that is constitutionally legitimate, and that was not ‘stolen’ from ‘we the people’ by fraudulent means,,,, by fraudulent means that have violently raped our sacred God given right to vote in free and fair elections.

  246. 246
    kairosfocus says:

    H’mm, I just saw the rally is up. Open accusations of bribery in GA and sue me if you want — as in I get discovery.

  247. 247
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, I pointed to the rules in the US Constitution for disputed elections. As for proof of willful wrongdoing, that has been established on public facts that for weeks you have never substantially addressed, the failed moral duty challenge constituting “a long train of abuses and usurpations”:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    KF

    PS: Ms Powell just gave more background to the Venezuela whistleblower. The trick is to allocate votes to targetted bins (adjudication files) then dump undesired votes and substitute surges that one desires. The synchronised count stop was identified as a signature of such a tactic. Of course, software readily identifies number of files in a folder, and can readily substitute an equivalent number. Of course, log files in these systems were highlighted as modifiable. Where, by design, already cast ballots cannot be traced to individual voters. That sounds like another technique that is feasible once effective scrutineering is suppressed. The Venezuela whistleblower was present when it or the like was done in Venezuela. So the pivotal issue is, WHERE WERE THE SCRUTINEERS GUARANTEEING SOUND CHAIN OF CUSTODY.

  248. 248
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, your twisting of a remark on a mathematically demonstrated point is stunning:

    JVL, 244: >>That’s right, we don’t have to listen to the accused to find out their side of the story. Well done. It’s always easier if you bypass the rules of law.>>

    Lessee, why is it that I said what I said? Oh, maybe because we antecedently know one man makes one vote so legitimate vote totals MUST be only integer values. Even if added up using floating point numbers, the fractional parts will always be point-zero-zero-zero . . .

    Those are self evident consequences of closure of integers under scrutineered, transparently carried out addition (and rarely, even more closely supervised subtraction). But, just what violation of the rule of law did we see instead?

    Oh, this — which you just twisted into pretzels to falsely accuse me of lawlessness:

    KF, 218: >> 129. Mr. Ramsland’s analysis of the raw data , which provides votes counts, rather
    than just vote shares, in decimal form provides highly probative evidence that, in his
    professional opinion, demonstrates that Dominion manipulated votes through the use of an
    “additive” or “Ranked Choice Voting” algorithm (or what Dominion’s user guide refers to as
    the “RCV Method”). See id. at ¶12. 12 Mr. Ramsland presents the following example of this data
    – taken from “Dominion’s direct feed to news outlets” – in the table below.

    Id.
    state timestamp eevp trump biden TV BV
    michigan 2020-11-04T06:54:48Z 64 0.534 0.448 1925865.66 1615707.52
    michigan 2020-11-04T06:56:47Z 64 0.534 0.448 1930247.664 1619383.808
    michigan 2020-11-04T06:58:47Z 64 0.534 0.448 1931413.386 1620361.792
    michigan 2020-11-04T07:00:37Z 64 0.533 0.45 1941758.975 1639383.75
    michigan 2020-11-04T07:01:46Z 64 0.533 0.45 1945297.562 1642371.3
    michigan 2020-11-04T07:03:17Z 65 0.533 0.45 1948885.185 1645400.25

    130. Mr. Ramsland describes how the RCV algorithm can be implemented, and the
    significance of the use of fractional vote counts, with decimal places, rather than whole numbers,
    in demonstrating that Dominion did just that to manipulate Michigan votes.>>

    Do tell us, JVL, just what are 1925865.66 votes for Mr Trump and 1615707.52 for Mr Biden in MI at timestamp 2020-11-04T06:54:48Z? What can such ever mean, when legitimate votes MUST be whole numbers?

    It’s not like this did not come up before only to be met with skeptical talking points, including yours.

    I repeat, that cannot be explained away legitimately; by the force of the built in, world framing structure of reality that establishes whole numbers.

    Yes, I do hope to see Dominion answering to a panel with right of reply, but that has utterly nothing to do with mathematical certainty.

    You owe an apology to the readers for an outrageous, ad hominem laced strawman attack.

    KF

  249. 249
    bornagain77 says:

    Statement by Donald J. Trump, The President of the United States
    https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/videos/376615900112093

  250. 250
    jerry says:

    AP news story about AG Barr was fake news.

  251. 251
    orthomyxo says:

    Do tell us, JVL, just what are 1925865.66 votes for Mr Trump and 1615707.52

    Lol, the data that is being passed around as direct from Dominion machines (which are not used in many counties, so how they’d have the whole state’s totals I’m not sure) is actually just the dataset underlying the NYT website. You cans ee this for yourself, here is the data for MI
    https://static01.nyt.com/elections-assets/2020/data/api/2020-11-03/state-page/michigan.json

    Now, ctrl-f and find the time-stamp you go these numbers from (2020-11-04T06:54:48Z ). You’ll see the time stamp include trump the same vote proportions ( .534 and Biden .448 in this case) for everytime stamp you posted, along with a total number of votes for that time (3606490 for this first one). What’s .534 * 3606490? Or .448 * 3606490

    So, do answer your question. You get .52 of a vote when you rely on values reported to one-tenth of a percent (reasonable for data underlying a visualization) to calculate the total for subsets of millions of votes.

    Making these kinds of mountains out of silly little molehills sort of undermines these affidavits, doesn’t it?

  252. 252
    bornagain77 says:

    Live feed scheduled to begin in 20 minutes<

    LIVE: Trump lawyer Giuliani testifies at Michigan election hearing (Dec. 2) | Epoch Timeshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKqnnShYj_g

  253. 253
    Viola Lee says:

    Jerry, what AP story about Barr?

  254. 254
    Viola Lee says:

    re 251 Orthomyxo: Good and obvious point.

  255. 255
    jerry says:

    what AP story about Barr?

    This one

    https://apnews.com/article/barr-no-widespread-election-fraud-b1f1488796c9a98c4b1a9061a6c7f49d

    Following headline, opening paragraph and impression of story is fake. Just another example of fake news that gets repeated by prominent media. Which is why no one should trust anything AP prints. They are not an honest news service.

    Disputing Trump, Barr says no widespread election fraud

    Disputing President Donald Trump’s persistent, baseless claims, Attorney General William Barr declared Tuesday the U.S. Justice Department has uncovered no evidence of widespread voter fraud that could change the outcome of the 2020 election.

    Barr has said they have hardly finished their investigation.

  256. 256
    Viola Lee says:

    According to the article, Barr said, “but “to date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election.”

    Is it on the record that he actually said that, or are you saying that quote is fake?

  257. 257
    jerry says:

    are you saying that quote is fake?

    No but it is a meaningless quote. He has seen fraud. But the investigation has just begun. And the DOJ investigation is not the main one at the moment. Their investigation would take months and that is irrelevant at moment.

  258. 258
    Viola Lee says:

    Then was the article fake news, or did it just not address other issues that you think are more relevant?

    In what way was the article fake?

  259. 259
    jerry says:

    In what way was the article fake?

    I gave you two, the headline and opening paragraph for starters and then leaving tons of things out and not framing the story truthfully. Just because a meaningless accurate statement was made does not make it a true story.

    It’s a great example of fake news.

  260. 260
    Seversky says:

    Viola Lee/238

    A group called “We the People” have published a petition that in part says the following.

    Do you folks here (BA, KF, William, Sandy, Jerry, ET, and others), endorse this idea?

    To me that reads as perilously close to fomenting insurrection.

    If Trump and his supporters here and elsewhere really want to start a civil war then this is the way to go.

  261. 261
    bornagain77 says:

    Giuliani hearing:

    Witness,,, Indian born, mother of 3,,, ‘head engineer’ for city,, in election work she started sorting mail in 3rd week of Sept.,,, was asked to ‘backdate’ ballots,,, more than one supervisor told them to ‘backdate’ ballots,,, 80 workers were told to ‘backdate’,,,, during her 10 days there at least 100,000 ballots were ‘backdated’,,, transferred at the beginning of OCT. to polling station,, witnessed supervisor coaching people to vote for Biden,,, was told to stop asking for ID by supervisor, told to ‘let the people vote’,,, 32,500 ballots were estimated to be double votes,,, was told to ‘skip’ verification steps on ballots at TCF center,,, did not know where the ballots were coming from,,, told to accept invalid ballots,,, told by director of TCF to let two completely different signatures count as a valid vote,,, said that they treated her like a criminal for refusing to validate ballots that were clearly invalid,,, said “I couldn’t believe it” as to the level of dishonesty that she witnessed at TCF,,, everything at ‘the podium’ was ‘not right’,,, said she was ‘shocked’ at the level of dishonesty she witnessed when she worked at the election,,,

    2nd witness: contracted Dominion IT worker, TCF, I observed numerous workers running batches of ballots numerous times,,, 9 to 10 times,, she witnessed numerous runs of the same ballots ‘thousands of times’ from the 22 to 24 tabulating machines on the floor,,, at TCF center from 27 hours,,, called FBI, FBI never called back,,,

    3rd witness corroborated previous witness that there were numerous runs of ballots,,, severe harassment of GOP workers, only job of Democratic challengers was not to challenge ballots but was to harass GOP challengers,,,

    4th witness,,, was excellent, witnessed ‘ballot dump’ in the middle of the night, i.e. 50,000 ballots brought in the back door late in the night, 4:00 AM, on Nov. 4,,, and very many other instances of overt fraud,,,

    Ret Col. Phil Waldren up now, excellent testimony on data ‘anomalies’

  262. 262
    jerry says:

    If Trump and his supporters here and elsewhere really want to start a civil war then this is the way to go.

    I haven’t seen this anywhere but here. I check in on most of the reputable conservative sites. It shows up on search engines though. It is probably very small.

    My guess is that if the Biden administration moves too aggressively to restrict rights, there will be reactions such as the sanctuary cities were by Democrats protecting illegal aliens.

    It’s not quite clear if they could do much even if they win the two Georgia senators since Manchin has said he will not vote for anything radical.

  263. 263
    JVL says:

    Here is a list of the post-election lawsuits including which have been dismissed, dropped or ongoing. There are more ongoing than I thought.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election

    From the section: Donald J. Trump for President v. Hobbs

    The Trump campaign requested that their evidence be kept secret from the public, but the judge refused to allow the secrecy.[145] The Trump campaign also stated that they had video footage from within a polling area, however, such footage would be illegal if taken within 75 feet (23 m) of a polling area with voters present.[145] The Trump campaign attempted to submit affidavits they collected, but admitted that some of these affidavits were “false” or “spam”; the judge refused to accept the affidavits as evidence, calling them unreliable.[146] Additionally, during questioning, none of the witnesses indicated that they had a basis to believe that their vote was improperly discarded; with the only impropriety raised being election workers pressing buttons for them.[146]

    During the hearing, the lawyer for the Trump campaign, Kory Langhofer, stated that the plaintiffs were “not alleging fraud” or “that anyone is stealing the election”, but were disputing “good faith errors.”[147]

    On November 13, the lawsuit regarding presidential ballots was dropped, after it became evident that the number of votes potentially to be contested (191) would not overcome Biden’s margin of victory in the state (11,414 at the time, with 10,315 uncounted).[48]

    Gosh, the Trumpsters stated that some of their affidavits in Arizona were spam or FALSE!

    From the section Donald J. Trump for President v. Benson (Michigan State Court)

    The Trump campaign filed suit in Michigan State Court on November 4 against Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson,[69] claiming its election observers were not allowed to view the ballot count, as required by Michigan law, and asking the court to stop the counting of votes.[12][70] On November 6, Judge Cynthia Stephens denied the request,[9] noting in her ruling that the “essence of the count is completed, and the relief is completely unavailable”.[1]

    The judge also noted the official complaint did not state “why”, “when, where, or by whom” an election observer was allegedly blocked from observing ballot-counting in Michigan.[71]

    From the section Stoddard v. City Election Comm’n of the City of Detroit

    The conservative group Election Integrity Fund filed a lawsuit in the Third Judicial Circuit of Michigan asking for a motion of injunctive relief ordering Detroit election workers to stop “curing” absentee ballots.[164] Chief Judge Timothy Kenny denied the motion for injunctive relief on November 6,[165] finding that the plaintiffs did “not offer any affidavits or specific eyewitness evidence to substantiate their assertions … Plaintiffs’ allegation is mere speculation. Plaintiffs’ pleadings do not set forth a cause of action.”[74][12] The judge noted that “sinister, fraudulent motives” were alleged, but that the “plaintiffs’ interpretation of events is incorrect and not credible”.[166] Following Kenny’s ruling, Dana Nessel, Michigan’s attorney general, issued a statement saying Michigan has “always been committed to a fair, transparent[,] and secure election that ensures every legal vote is counted”.[167]

    From the section Donald J. Trump for President v. Montgomery Cty. Bd. of Elections

    During the hearing, the judge asked the lawyer for the Trump campaign, Jonathan Goldstein, if Goldstein was “claiming that there is any fraud” or “any undue or improper influence upon the elector with respect to these 592 ballots”. Goldstein replied ‘No.’ [180]

    From the section: Donald J. Trump for President v. Philadelphia Cty. Bd. of Elections

    Donald J. Trump for President v. Philadelphia County Board of Elections is a lawsuit filed in federal court on November 5, in which the Trump campaign sought to stop ballot counting in Philadelphia. The campaign argued that poll observers were not allowed in the counting room, but later admitted some observers were present. No ballots were at issue, and the case was settled upon mutual party agreement that Republicans and Democrats could have each have up to 60 poll watchers present to observe vote counting.[2][175] The admission that Trump’s observers were in the counting room contradicted Trump’s later claims that his observers were prevented from entering vote counting rooms in Pennsylvania.[111]

    From the section Donald J. Trump for President v. Bucks Cty. Bd. of Elections

    Donald J. Trump for President Inc. v. Bucks County Board of Elections is a lawsuit filed in the state’s trial court on November 9.[59] The lawyers for the Trump campaign have signed an agreement that they “do not allege, and there is no evidence of, any fraud in connection with the challenged ballots”.[111] They also declared that they were not alleging votes from dead people, “misconduct”, or “impropriety” related to those ballots, and had no evidence of such happenings.[111]

    There’s more of course.

  264. 264
    kairosfocus says:

    Ortho,

    Thanks for your comment. You do indeed show a first level explanation for how the reported fractions were generated on given data.

    However, I must repeat: a vote is an inherent integral number. That is the baseline data, and percentages and calculations on same are inherently not the same thing. They just aren’t, and to conflate the two is hugely problematic. Similarly, information — votes — that are inherently integer should be understood, stored, processed [valid operations: ADD, for error correction, SUBTRACT . . . both under scrutiny] and reported as what they are, integers; derivative floating point variables should be anchored to that. This is a core truth and integrity issue, but it is likely to be overlooked or dismissed today; as was seen in the other thread.

    The mindset that moves away from that, while using non-transparent software is the fundamental problem. That you (and doubtless many others) see this as a mole-hill is part of the problem, not the solution.

    Further, let us look at U/D 24 and 25 to the earlier OP. By now you know Diebold [went to ES&S then was acquired by Dominion) and others are DNA core in a network of licensing of software, so the leaked development emails are part of the relevant background.

    You will see how vote rounding and summing of fractional values were on the table c. 2001, with need to round 3 vs 2 places. We are again seeing the issue, in DNA code for this software, with the issue being addition of votes. Had votes been properly encapsulated as integers, that would not come up, there would be no issue of injecting ranked choice votes or setting fraction ratios and generating products to report as these are the votes. No, they ain’t.

    The solution is clear. Until we have open source code and transparent box machines, votes need to be cast on validated paper ballots by validated voters under scrutineer control. Then, under similar control, they need to be hand counted at precinct level, out loud, with video logging. The ballots should be held at that level and transported for storage, likewise under scrutiny.

    Then, signed off sums can go to tabulating centres and be stored based on clear, chain of custody controlled record.

    Treated, as integers.

    Vote totals can be added up and communicated as integers.

    Processing for statistics, visualisation, plotting pi charts etc can use derivative variables which can be double precision floating point values, but must have chain of controlled custody to the encapsulated safeguarded integer values. These must never be treated as the votes, just calculations on the votes.

    As a benchmark, would you consider it appropriate to use rounded numbers and graphs with percent calculations to handle your cash or account or atm card? Would such be GAAP-compatible for accounts? And, would absence of indelible paper trails and computer transaction logs be acceptable?

    Why are accounts of a business regularly audited, and why do auditors insist on physical inspection of items, stocks in stores, transaction documents etc?

    Why is it that they treat a failed control point check as tip of the iceberg, demanding to dig deeper?

    Do you not see that the stream of reported values is a direct analogue to such a flag-trip auditing event?

    Do you not see that it is a sign of deeper, more fundamental trouble that data like this is being reported as votes? No, they are not, they are calculated values, not observed values duly and solemnly reported.

    Do you not see that such a mindset is a sign of an underlying attitude?

    Do you see why I have kept on noting that the US election system would fail a benchmarking exercise against how a run of the mill coop bank handles cash and accounts?

    So, thank you for reporting the immediate source of fractions. However, that in itself simply trips flags and marks the tip of an iceberg.

    Where: ’twas a dark, moonless, foggy, berg-y night, and the good ship Titanic was running late. Speed up, was the cry.

    (Of course, I take literary licence and I am extending Plato’s Socrates in his analogy of the Ship of State; with of course a nod to the Ac 27 incident.)

    KF

  265. 265

    Viola Lee said:

    Are you aware that there are many people, such as myself, that think that we also are “we the people”, and that the the ideas expressed in that petition are totally antithetical to many fundamental principles of our country.

    Which ideas are antithetical to which fundamental principles? Unless you can answer that, this is nothing but rhetoric.

  266. 266
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, let me adapt an old Jewish mom’s saying: a strategic half-truth is a whole lie. Where, to lie is to speak with disregard to truth in hope of profiting from what has been said or suggested being taken as true. Misleading framing of a narrative fits in here. KF

  267. 267
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM,

    there is of course a pair of foundational documents, with a third exchange of arguments (there were also anti-federalist papers, as my Penguin copy includes). The first, DoI, Jul 4, 1776, is in key parts a natural law argument, implying universality. A point understood at the time, I gather even in Japan there were people writing around it.

    (You know that I take Cicero’s summary of then received wisdom c 50 BC as key: law is highest reason applied to governing conduct in community on principles of justice and good order. Justice, being the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities/duties.)

    Let us ponder:

    When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

    Where, in the 12th year of Independence, on a second attempt, the Constitution intended to deliver on new govt has this classic, grand statement structure:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I – VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].

    Note that term, “blessings of liberty,” a double covenantal, nation and government under God framework that — like the difference between integer values and rational numbers aka floating point — is being lost sight of. Let me give covenantal context based on two pivotal calls to national prayer made by the Congress [yes, the Congress], bracketing the Declaration:

    May 1776 [over the name of John Hancock, first signer of the US Declaration of Indpependence] : In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God’s superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.

    December 1777: FORASMUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther Blessings as they stand in Need of; And it having pleased him in his abundant Mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable Bounties of his common Providence, but also to smile upon us in the Prosecution of a just and necessary War, for the Defence and Establishment of our unalienable Rights and Liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a Measure to prosper the Means used for the Support of our Troops and to crown our Arms with most signal success: It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart THURSDAY, the eighteenth Day of December next, for Solemn Thanksgiving and Praise; That with one Heart and one Voice the good People may express the grateful Feelings of their Hearts, and consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor; and that together with their sincere Acknowledgments and Offerings, they may join the penitent Confession of their manifold Sins, whereby they had forfeited every Favour, and their humble and earnest Supplication that it may please GOD, through the Merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of Remembrance; That it may please him graciously to afford his Blessing on the Governments of these States respectively, and prosper the public Council of the whole; to inspire our Commanders both by Land and Sea, and all under them, with that Wisdom and Fortitude which may render them fit Instruments, under the Providence of Almighty GOD, to secure for these United States the greatest of all human blessings, INDEPENDENCE and PEACE; That it may please him to prosper the Trade and Manufactures of the People and the Labour of the Husbandman, that our Land may yet yield its Increase; To take Schools and Seminaries of Education, so necessary for cultivating the Principles of true Liberty, Virtue and Piety, under his nurturing Hand, and to prosper the Means of Religion for the promotion and enlargement of that Kingdom which consisteth “in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.”[i.e. Cites Rom 14:9] [Source: Journals of the American Congress From 1774 to 1788 (Washington: Way and Gideon, 1823), Vol. I, pp. 286-287 & II, pp. 309 – 310.]

    I argue that the May 1776 call was an act of national covenant under God, the spiritual foundation event. The context of blessings of liberty is clear. And, not only reflecting ethical theism but the Christian faith. In which context acknowledging Jesus Christ as LIVING LORD (1787th year) is not to be dismissed as mere form, given the further light of what blessings are in mind, in context.

    So, the relevant founding principles and context of thought are quite clear. Going further, let us note how Blackstone summed up about 20 years before the Constitution was ratified, noting this book’s role as key legal textbook:

    Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being . . . consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker’s will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws . . . These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly [NB: cf. Exod. 20:15 – 16], should hurt nobody [NB: cf. Rom 13:8 – 10], and should render to every one his due [NB: cf. Rom 13:6 – 7 & Exod. 20:15]; to which three general precepts Justinian[1: a Juris praecepta sunt hace, honeste vivere. alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. Inst, 1. 1. 3] has reduced the whole doctrine of law [and, Corpus Juris, Justinian’s Christianised precis and pruning of perhaps 1,000 years of Roman jurisprudence, in turn is the foundation of law for much of Europe].

    So, the principles in question are or at least should be, no mystery.

    There is a pernicious, nihilism-prone reconception of law afoot, that it is in effect what those who control a state’s legal presses issue without regard to highest reason applied to justice and good order. The consequences turn reformation into a naked power struggle, inviting 4g civil war, as we see going on. The implicit, might and/or manipulation make right consequences are absurdly manifest.

    KF

  268. 268
    bornagain77 says:

    Attn KF, video clip of Ret Col. Phil Waldren from his testimony last night,,

    “The forensics data, if you have access to the software code that was driving the algorithms in these machines, and I say algorithms because the data that is the raw feed of the data, is reported in decimal places. So if you’re tabulating votes, your vote, my vote, Rep. Johnson’s vote, Well, that’s three votes. This data is reported in 3 digit fractions. So, how is that possible in an additive function? So the software and the code is what we would need, or a qualified forensics team of your choice, would need to look at to determine what algorithms were in the USB drives that drive the machines. And the number patterns that we see is that they would pick three to four precincts and they would run the algorithm for X amount of time until they got close to the precinct threshold, so it would not kick off the overvote situation, and then they would move it to another precinct. So this is a complex issue with injection,, in Pennsylvania we heard a gentleman who again, signed an affidavit, a Truckdriver, that he delivered a truckload of ballots to a vacant lot in Pennsylvania, from New York, and the ballots were just left there, there was no one there to sign his bill of lading. So the hypothesis , or the assumption, is that that was used as a staging area for people to go pick up pre-printed ballots to move into the system for, for example, what we saw in some of the late absentee numbers in MIchigan.”
    – Ret Col. Phil Waldren
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1334325603672207362

    Of Note: According to the legislators themselves, Dominion has simply refused to show up and testify to the Michigan legislature despite numerous requests for them to do so. They have also simply refused to allow their software to be examined. ,,, Why? What are they hiding? and Why are they hiding?

    Moreover,, since it is of paramount public interest and public importance, they should be compelled to participate and also to hand over all relevant data that needs to be examined. Their refusal to do so is simply unacceptable.

  269. 269
    kairosfocus says:

    VL,

    You have tried to fasten the ideas of the group We The People on us, inserting it into the discussion. For record, I will comment on points:

    >>When the legislators, courts and/or Congress fail to do their duty under the 12th Amendment,>>

    Amendment, created after messed up elections in 1800 and 1824. This sets out procedures:

    The Electors

    Art 2 s 1: The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows

    Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

    The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President . . .

    . . . shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;–The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted [–> the true presidential election];–The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. [And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.–]The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

    This points to an array of backstops if an election becomes tainted or deadlocked.

    >> you must be ready Mr. President to immediately declare a limited form of Martial Law,>>

    Insurrection act, which may be necessary in case of massive breakdown.

    >> and temporarily suspend the Constitution and civilian control of these federal elections,>>

    Nope! The backstops are more than adequate. Spoil the elections and face house of reps. Failing that, face President PENCE.

    >> for the sole purpose of having the military oversee a national re-vote.>>

    The concern is valid, the solution, fatally flawed. There are backstops in the law, they are unpalatable but those whose mischief led there are to blame.

    >>A vote that assures a fair election in every jurisdiction and reflects the true will of the people.>>

    The true will of the people is the Constitution, which has clearly established backups.

    >> Federal candidates only. >>

    The taint is liable to be general.

    >>Paper ballots. No computers.>>

    Very understandable.

    >> Hand-counted with both parties watching every vote. Only registered voters.>>

    Concern to restore integrity.

    >> Photo ID to prove residence.>>

    Understandable concern, but people move about so rapidly that this fails. Current utility bill is the banking standard.

    >>Conducted safely with everyone wearing masks and six feet apart, just like we did in Ohio.>>

    A concern, but incompatible with scrutiny of documents and reading of signatures etc. Maybe vid feeds and screens?

    >>Only then can the winning candidate be accepted as legitimate by a true majority of We the People who must give our consent to be justly governed!>>

    The established will is the Constitution, which uses backstops not re-votes. For excellent reason.

    >>Unfortunately we are at a point where we can only trust our military to do this>>

    Are you double-plus sure?

    >> because our corrupt political class and courts have proven their inability to act fairly and within the law.>>

    The fair comment is legitimate, however the suggested solution ignores constitutional backstops.

    KF

  270. 270
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, muy interesante. My concern that votes are integers not rationals is underscored. The underlying at minimum negligent mentality on such a crucial matter that can easily spiral down into blood, is telling. KF

  271. 271
    bornagain77 says:

    Here is another video clip from last night’s testimony that clearly indicates that something was seriously amiss in MIchigan:

    Michigan poll worker testifies the ballots were in numerical order and street number order with similar signatures and no date on absentee envelopes
    https://twitter.com/LadyPatriotAZ/status/1334314229009063937?s=20

    Of related note to Dominion,,,

    Sidney Powell’s Election Lawsuit in Georgia Gets Expedited Appeal – 2/3/2020
    Excerpt: Powell is seeking to have outside experts examine Dominion machines. Georgia election officials are attempting to prevent that from happening.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/sidney-powells-election-lawsuit-in-georgia-gets-expedited-appeal_3603117.html

    Why in blue blazes would ‘election officials’ dare join Dominion in stonewalling examination of its machines and software? Something smells very fishy.

    Lack of transparency is certainly not helping their situation with the public right now,,,,

  272. 272
  273. 273
    bornagain77 says:

    Attn KF:

    Programming Alert: Live Coverage of Georgia Senate Committee Hearings on Election Issues
    BY EPOCH TIMES STAFF December 3, 2020 Updated: December 3, 2020 Print
    Two committees in Georgia’s Senate have announced that they will hold back-to-back hearings to examine whether the state’s elections processes were followed in the November election on Dec. 3.

    9:30 a.m.: Georgia Senate Committee on Government Oversight

    1:00 p.m.: Georgia Senate Judiciary Subcommittee

    NTD and The Epoch Times will livestream the full events.

    NTD YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/NTDTV

    The Epoch Times YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/epochtimesdigital

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/programming-alert-live-coverage-of-georgia-senate-committee-hearings-on-election-issues_3602759.html

    Also of note:

    Investigation of (Random) 100-Ballot Sample in Arizona Finds 3% of the Ballots Were Deemed Fraudulent in Favor of Joe Biden – Larger Audit Granted
    By Cristina Laila – December 2, 2020
    Excerpt: “The audit found: one Trump vote arbitrarily excluded. Another Trump vote struck and then fraudulently added to Biden. Total fraud averaging 3%. Biden margin of fraud less than .05%. Thus if 3% fraud rate remains on larger sample Trump easily wins Arizona,” Congressman Paul Gosar (R-AZ) said.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/investigation-100-ballot-sample-arizona-finds-3-ballots-deemed-fraudulent-favor-joe-biden-larger-audit-granted/

    THE BIG QUESTION: Democrats Still Haven’t Explained How HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Votes Were Dumped in Middle of Night for Joe Biden
    By Joe Hoft – December 2, 2020
    On election night numerous states stopped counting. These weren’t just any states, they were the swing states. All these states were won by President Trump but then the Democrats stopped the elections and dropped hundreds of thousands of votes in these states to steal the election for senile Joe Biden.
    We all saw this happen and we reported on it. The bizarre thing about these elections is that the results appeared random until a certain point in time when the dumps of ballots for Biden appeared in the middle of the night. At this point in almost all cases, 90% of the vote was recorded, then after this point nearly all votes recorded in the Presidential election were in the same proportion of Biden to Trump with Biden always receiving the larger amount.,,,
    (Read more here)
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/big-question-democrats-still-havent-explained-hundreds-thousands-votes-dumped-middle-night-joe-biden/

  274. 274
    BobRyan says:

    President Trump could have had the Attorney General draw up a long list of charges against several high ranking members of many state governments. The moments states shut down businesses and governors started ruling by dictate, making them dictators, was the moment those states became states in rebellion. Both the Whiskey Rebellion and rebellion of states, who chose violence in place of peaceful separation, show that no Congressional consent is needed for any president to declare states in rebellion.

    He should target the three worse states as a strong message to the other governors who continue to ignore the US Constitution, California, New York and Ohio; Pennsylvania could easily be added to the list. Among the charges, usurpation of Congress. Only Congress can do anything to impact interstate commerce according to the Commerce Clause. Governors, Lt. Governors, Attorney Generals, unelected bureaucrats ruling in the name of the governors should be included in the charges, which should include committing acts of rebellion.

    No state can have representation in Congress, either house, if they are in a state of rebellion. Their members of Congress and the Senate should be removed, by force if necessary. No state in rebellion can have a single delegate vote for President.

    Right now, there are governors who ignore court orders, including federal, who do not believe the laws apply to them. They believe they can do as they wish under the guise of public health. The Supremacy Clause was created to prevent any governor from being a dictator, since there is no exception to the Supremacy Clause.

  275. 275
    Bob O'H says:

    Of related note to Dominion,,,

    Sidney Powell’s Election Lawsuit in Georgia Gets Expedited Appeal – 2/3/2020
    Excerpt: Powell is seeking to have outside experts examine Dominion machines. Georgia election officials are attempting to prevent that from happening.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/sidney-powells-election-lawsuit-in-georgia-gets-expedited-appeal_3603117.html

    Georgia election officials were worried that preserving the election machines would stop election run-offs that are going on this week. Their argument about this, from Sunday evening, is here. The plaintiffs appealed and told the judge the appeal wasn’t in his juristriction. So the judge shrugged, and agreed with them. And stopped the schedule he had set in motion. Once the expedited appeal is heard, which will be next wee, the whole thing gets kicked back to the judge, who will work out a new timetable. Pretty soon the whole thing will be moot, because the electors will have voted.

    Basically, all this appeal did was delay these time-critical proceedings by about a week.

  276. 276
    JVL says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputes_surrounding_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election_results

    On December 2, a full-page advertisement signed by the “We The People Convention” called upon Trump to “suspend the Constitution, proclaim martial law, and conduct a new election.”[107] Retired general Michael Flynn and Trump attorney L. Lin Wood tweeted support of the idea. Many generals, attorneys, and other commentators expressed horror at Flynn’s support in particular, with one calling the opinion “breathtakingly morally treasonous” and another saying “Grant and Lincoln are rolling over in their graves at what the hell is going on.”[108]

  277. 277
    Sandy says:

    In September 2019, a document was published that details the 2020 election – so far – to a frightening precision.

    ( https://twitter.com/CodeMonkeyZ/status/1334463159952756736 )

  278. 278
    JVL says:

    Sandy: In September 2019, a document was published that details the 2020 election – so far – to a frightening precision.

    Well, a huge conspiracy like that takes time to plan: you gotta make the plan, get the money to pay people off, find the right people to do the dirty work, etc, etc, etc.

  279. 279
    bornagain77 says:

    Bob, for crying out loud, it is the Dominion machines, and more specifically their software, that is, in large measure, what is in question in this election. ,,, Dominion has simply stonewalled access to its machines, and more specifically to its software, by forensics experts. So for them to say that they must reuse the machines and the software in question will only potentially destroy important information and compound the problem,,, This is unacceptable! Immediate access must be granted!

    To repeat the testimony from last night,,, video clip of Ret Col. Phil Waldren from his testimony last night,,

    “The forensics data, if you have access to the software code that was driving the algorithms in these machines, and I say algorithms because the data that is the raw feed of the data, is reported in decimal places. So if you’re tabulating votes, your vote, my vote, Rep. Johnson’s vote, Well, that’s three votes. This data is reported in 3 digit fractions. So, how is that possible in an additive function? So the software and the code is what we would need, or a qualified forensics team of your choice, would need to look at to determine what algorithms were in the USB drives that drive the machines. And the number patterns that we see is that they would pick three to four precincts and they would run the algorithm for X amount of time until they got close to the precinct threshold, so it would not kick off the overvote situation, and then they would move it to another precinct. So this is a complex issue with injection,, in Pennsylvania we heard a gentleman who again, signed an affidavit, a Truckdriver, that he delivered a truckload of ballots to a vacant lot in Pennsylvania, from New York, and the ballots were just left there, there was no one there to sign his bill of lading. So the hypothesis , or the assumption, is that that was used as a staging area for people to go pick up pre-printed ballots to move into the system for, for example, what we saw in some of the late absentee numbers in MIchigan.”
    – Ret Col. Phil Waldren
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1334325603672207362

    Of Note: According to the Mich. legislators themselves, Dominion has simply refused to show up and testify to the Michigan legislature despite numerous requests for them to do so. They have also simply refused to allow their software to be examined. ,,, Why? What are they hiding? and Why are they themselves hiding from the legislators?

    Moreover,, since it is of paramount public interest and public importance, they should be compelled to participate and also to hand over all relevant data that needs to be examined. Their refusal to do so is simply unacceptable.

    We have more than enough warrant to demand a full forensic examination of all machines and software in question so as to ascertain exactly what happened,,,

    As I heard one legislator in AZ say (paraphrase), “math landed us on the moon, math (when properly used) does not lie to us, and the math itself is what is telling us that something very fishy was up!”

    For instance,,,

    Dr Corsi DEEP DIVE Interview 11-09-20: Mathematical Anomalies of 2020 Election Results
    https://corsination.com/mathematical-anomalies-of-2020-election-results/

  280. 280
    ET says:

    The DoJ is NOT the investigating party. So if they aren’t investigating then of course they won’t see any evidence until it is brought to them by the investigating party.

  281. 281
    ET says:

    Yes JVL. The democrats had FOUR years to plan for this. They have plenty of big money donors to pay for it. And they have plenty of highly motivated people to make it happen.

  282. 282
    jerry says:

    You might as well hear it now. A conservative tells how the election played out. An updated form of ballot harvesting.

    https://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2020/12/02/the-real-kraken-what-really-happened-to-donald-trump-in-the-2020-election-n1185494

    My guess is that a large number of illegal votes were in this ballot harvesting. Why all the bullying brutish behavior? They probably didn’t know if they had enough legal votes so had to ensure they did with their tactics once they knew how many they needed.

  283. 283
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: Bob, for crying out loud, it is the Dominion machines, and more specifically their software, that is, in large measure, what is in question in this election. Something Dominion has stonewalled access to to forensics experts. So to reuse the machines and the software in question will only compound the problem.

    A YouTuber that Kairosfocus flagged up show fractional votes initially SAID it was Dominion feeds from Philadelphia but Dominion wasn’t in Philadelphia. Turned out to be ES&S instead. So which is it?

    And did anyone ever figure out IF a server got served in Germany and IF there’s was a gunfight?

  284. 284
    ET says:

    I don’t see any problem with the petition Viola posted in 238. It is what should have happened in the first place.

    The only people who would have a problem with it are democrats. They only want the military to enforce their draconian lockdowns.

  285. 285
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, ES&S as was notified to you when you previously raised this, ES&S is a subsidiary of Dominion. KF

  286. 286
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: On first glance the paper is an academic scenario analysis. KF

  287. 287
    Bob O'H says:

    ba77 @ 279 –

    Bob, for crying out loud, it is the Dominion machines, and more specifically their software, that is, in large measure, what is in question in this election. ,,, Dominion has simply stonewalled access to its machines, and more specifically to its software, by forensics experts. So for them to say that they must reuse the machines and the software in question will only potentially destroy important information and compound the problem,,, This is unacceptable! Immediate access must be granted!

    Well, perhaps Powell et al. shouldn’t try to slow this down, then. The stay on wiping the machines is currently in operation, but can only last 10 days. I can’t see how delaying anything from happening for a week helps.

    Also, Dominion had nothing to do in these proceedings. They aren’ t a party to them, and they don’t hold the machines in question. So why are you so upset at them?

  288. 288
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: ES&S as was notified to you when you previously raised this, ES&S is a subsidiary of Dominion.

    That is just not true!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Systems_%26_Software

    ES&S is a subsidiary of McCarthy Group, LLC. In 2014, ES&S was the largest manufacturer of voting machines in the United States, claiming customers in 4,500 localities in 42 states and two U.S. territories.[citation needed] As of 2014, the company had more than 450 employees, more than 200 of whom are located in Omaha.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Voting_Systems

    In May 2010, Dominion acquired Premier Election Solutions (formerly Diebold Election Systems, Inc.) from Election Systems & Software (ES&S). ES&S had just acquired Premier from Diebold and was required to sell off Premier by the United States Department of Justice for anti-trust concerns.[12] In June 2010, Dominion acquired Sequoia Voting Systems.[13]

    In 2018, Dominion was acquired by its management and Staple Street Capital, a private equity firm.[14][15]

    Dominion bought PES from ES&S but to say ES&S is a subsidiary of Dominion is false. Demonstrably so.

  289. 289
    Viola Lee says:

    Somewhere back there, in respect to the We the Peple petition, WJM wrote, “Which ideas are antithetical to which fundamental principles? Unless you can answer that, this is nothing but rhetoric.”

    Declaring martial law and suspending the Constitution are antithetical to the basic principle that we are committed to the Constitution and the underlying legal structure of the the three branches of government, decades of legal decisions, etc.

    Also, KF, I did not try to “fasten” the We the People petition on this group: I just asked if various people agreed with it. ET thinks it’s a good idea. WJM responded but didn’t say what he thought. You offered some objections, which I was glad to see.

  290. 290
    bornagain77 says:

    “So why are you so upset at them?”

    Well I don’t know for sure Bob, perhaps it could be because they are directly implicated in the biggest voter fraud in American history? Pulling the trigger on the murder weapon as it were,,,

    But hey, I could be wrong on that guess,,, what’s your guess as to why so many people are upset with Dominion?

    🙂

  291. 291
    JVL says:

    ET: Yes JVL. The democrats had FOUR years to plan for this. They have plenty of big money donors to pay for it. And they have plenty of highly motivated people to make it happen.

    I wonder how much it all cost then? Must be millions upon millions of dollars considering how many people must be involved and to make sure they get paid enough to keep their mouths shut! Maybe billons of dollars. Wow. Just so they can bring back Obama Care and try to get back on the climate control treaty? You’d think someone on Trump’s team (aside from the ones like Powell who think it was THE COMMUNISTS) would be trying to follow the money. Should be easy for someone in the Justice Department.

  292. 292
    ET says:

    Look JVL, you don’t know anything about investigating. All you are doing is making up {SNIP!], flinging it against the wall to see what sticks.

    Good luck with that

  293. 293
    JVL says:

    ET: All you are doing is making up [SNIP], flinging it against the wall to see what sticks.

    Did you see that bit where in one court case the Trump legal team admitted some of the affidavits were ‘spam’ and/or false! Oooops!!

    Lots of court cases have been voluntarily dismissed by the plaintiffs.

    In Georgia: Brooks v. Mahoney

    On November 11, 2020, four voters in Georgia sued Thomas Mahoney, Chairman of the Chatham County Board of Elections, in federal district court. The voters claimed a software glitch caused a miscounting of votes, and asked the court to stop certain counties from certifying their presidential election results. On November 16, the plaintiffs voluntarily dismissed the case.[59][60][61][62]

    Lack of evidence perhaps?

    Also in Georgia: In Re: Enforcement of Election Laws and Securing Ballots Cast or Received after 7:00pm on November 3, 2020

    The lawsuit, regarding 53 ballots,[56] was filed by the Trump campaign and the Georgia Republican Party on November 4 in the Chatham County Superior Court of the Eastern Judicial Circuit of Georgia.[1][57] The campaign claimed that two witnesses had seen late ballots being improperly mixed with on-time ballots. Superior Court Judge James F. Bass Jr.[9] denied the request and dismissed the suit on November 5, after hearing testimony from the chairman of the Chatham County Board of Registrars.[56] The judge ruled that no evidence had been produced that the ballots were late.[58]

    Oh dear, no evidence. What a shame. I wonder who’s paying for all this dismissed court time? The taxpayers I guess.

    Pearson v. Kemp

    On November 27, 2020, a group of voters led by teenage conservative activist C. J. Pearson filed a lawsuit against Brian Kemp, the governor of Georgia, and other state officials. The case was assigned to Judge Timothy Batten and the plaintiffs alleged massive election fraud; multiple violations of the Georgia Election Code; and violations of the Equal Protection, Elections, and Electors Clauses of the U.S. Constitution. As the result, the plaintiffs sought to 1) have the state de-certify the election results; 2) prevent the Governor from transmitting the currently certified election results to the Electoral College; 3) have the Governor transmit certified election results that state that President Donald Trump is the winner of the state election; among other reliefs. This lawsuit, along with King v. Whitmer, was filed by conservative lawyer Sidney Powell.[65] On December 2, 2020, attorney Marc Elias was admitted Pro hac vice on behalf of the Democratic Party of Georgia.[148]

    The plaintiffs claimed that the use of Dominion Voting Systems, a company that provides voting software and hardware across the U.S., violated state and federal law, and that Dominion was “founded by foreign oligarchs and dictators to ensure computerized ballot-stuffing and vote manipulation to whatever level was needed to make certain Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chávez never lost another election.” The plaintiffs alleged that Dominion was used to rig votes for Joe Biden.[66][149][150]

    On November 29, 2020, the Court first ordered the defendant to preserve the voting machines and refrain from resetting them[151], but then on the same day reversed the order, believing that the machines are possessed by counties instead of the state. [152] As of 10:10pm on the same day, a third order restored the order to preserve the voting machines. [153]

    On December 1, 2020, an interlocutory appeal, Case No. 20-14480[154], was filed with the Eleventh Circuit. On December 2, 2020, the Eleventh Circuit issued an order[155] for an expedited briefing schedule and review.

    So, that one might actually get a real resolution soon.

    Wood v. Raffensperger

    The lawsuit was filed by L. Lin Wood Jr. on November 13 in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Georgia.[83] The plaintiff claimed that the balloting result in Georgia was defective and should be either invalidated or modified (i.e. having cured absentee ballots removed) because Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and other government officials had no statutory authority to change election law to relax signature match requirement or to allow curing of absentee ballots. These changes to the voting process were introduced as the result of a settlement of an earlier lawsuit with the Democratic Party of Georgia on March 6, 2020.[156][157] An amended complaint was filed on November 16, 2020, to include additional complaints about the automatic recount process.[158]

    On November 19, Judge Steven Grimberg ruled that Wood lacked standing to bring the case, had brought it too late, and “didn’t have the ability to show he could bring a case.”[139] The Trump-appointed judge also found “no basis in fact or in law” to stop Georgia’s certification of its election results (in which Joe Biden defeated Donald Trump) at such a late stage, as this would “breed confusion and potential disenfranchisement“.[159]

    Gee, no standing. You’d think any decent lawyer would have known that ahead of time. Oh well. Also, note that the judge completely disagrees with the Trumpster who thinks you have to throw out the election to restore faith in the process.

    In Michigan: Bally v. Whitmer

    On November 11, 2020, registered voters in Michigan sued state officials, including Governor Gretchen Whitmer, in federal district court. The voters alleged a variety of irregularities, including the exclusion of poll watchers from the canvassing process, and asked for votes from Wayne, Ingham and Washtenaw to not be counted. The complaint cited similar cases Costantino v. Benson and Trump v. Benson. On November 16, the plaintiffs voluntarily dismissed the suit.[61][75][76][77][78]

    Fascinating that in many cases it’s not the courts but the plaintiffs voluntarily dismissing their cases. I wonder why?

    Costantino v. Detroit

    On November 9, Republican poll challengers filed a lawsuit in Wayne County Circuit Court against Detroit election officials, alleging fraud and misconduct during the vote count at TCF Center and asking for the court to stop the certification of Wayne County results.[79] Chief Judge Timothy M. Kenny denied the petition, finding the “[p]laintiffs’ interpretation of events is incorrect and not credible.”[59] The judge stated that the plaintiffs did not fully comprehend the “TCF absent ballot tabulation process” because they failed to attend a familiarization session on October 29.[80] The plaintiffs appealed to the state’s court of appeals, which declined to hear the case[81]; on November 23, the Michigan Supreme Court also declined to hear the case.[82]

    Yeah well if you can’t be bothered to show up and learn the procedures then . . .

    Donald J. Trump for President v. Benson (Michigan State Court)

    The Trump campaign filed suit in Michigan State Court on November 4 against Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson,[69] claiming its election observers were not allowed to view the ballot count, as required by Michigan law, and asking the court to stop the counting of votes.[12][70] On November 6, Judge Cynthia Stephens denied the request,[9] noting in her ruling that the “essence of the count is completed, and the relief is completely unavailable”.[1]

    The judge also noted the official complaint did not state “why”, “when, where, or by whom” an election observer was allegedly blocked from observing ballot-counting in Michigan.[71]

    Wow, some of these affidavits do sound a bit . . . lacking in details.

    Johnson v. Benson

    On November 16, 2020, registered voters and poll challengers from Michigan sued Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson in federal district court. The plaintiffs claimed the secretary enabled fraud on election day, and asked to block certification of the vote results until an audit could be performed. On November 18, the plaintiffs voluntarily dismissed the suit.[83][84]

    Again, the plaintiffs voluntarily dismissed the case. Makes you think doesn’t it?

  294. 294
    jerry says:

    We the People petition on this group

    It looks like a fringe group that will get little traction. I offered up what may be a more likely scenario but that is speculative too.

    There is a lot of {SNIP] off people because they believe, with good reason, that the election was stolen (about half.) That is not a healthy situation for the country for survival. My guess is that about 65% of the population agree with the basic principles of the country but for various reasons many vote for the party that wants to subjugate the others because of ignorance. Another 20% are probably clueless. So it is about 15% that are driving the problems in the country. In this 15% are the financial and intellectual elites. But they control academia, popular entertainment, the press and social media.

    I wrote over 8 years ago that the country was on its way to dissolution because of the lack of a common culture. It was just what the end game would be and it would take about 15-20 years. The virus and this election may accelerate it. The question is will the small percentage that votes with the Democrats and wants the basic ideals of the US allow the country to dissolve?

    The world will not be a stable place if the US breaks up. But in the short run many outside the US are getting a dopamine rush as they give the middle finger to the US. But in reality their continued existence depends on a strong US.

  295. 295
    bornagain77 says:

    the live feed just started,

    LIVE: Georgia Senate Committees Hold Hearings on Election Issues (Dec. 3) | NTD 9:30 a.m.ET and 1:00 p.m ET
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur4vl5UTN8g

  296. 296
    Bob O'H says:

    ba77 @ 290 – I was asking in the context of a lawsuit that Dominion aren’t involved in. They are not plaintiffs, they are not defendants, they haven’t submitted any affidavits or an amicus curiae. The specific TRO was over inspection of machines that are held by the counties that ran the voting. So why get upset at Dominion when they aren’t (yet) involved?

    You might do better to be upset with Sidney Powell who is making such a mess of her suits that her whole career is going to need a dry cleaner by the end of this.

  297. 297
    bornagain77 says:

    Whatever Bob, Dominion still has refused to show up to the numerous different legislatures that have asked them to show up and answer questions.

    For instance,,, what did Eric Coomer mean when he said this:

    Eric Coomer Dominion Director “Trump is not going to win, i made f***ing sure of that”
    https://youtu.be/xzIYLWgmfBw?t=1315
    Eric Coomer, who has served as director of product strategy and security for Dominion Voting Systems, bragged about rigging the 2020 election against Donald Trump in an antifa conference call…
    (‘Disappeared’ from the internet when his Antifa ties were exposed)

    And why did they, Dominion, refuse to show up to a hearing in PA when they found out that the PA legislature had been informed about Eric Coomer?

    Dominion simply has too much to answer for.

    I certainly don’t think that it reflects on you to try to be an apologist for Dominion’s stonewalling,,,, i.e. Transparency is paramount and, if you, as a left winger, truly believed the election was fair, then you should be at the forefront in demanding transparency so that those on the right who have questions will be satisfied that the election was truly fair,,, As it is now, and as far as I can see, the claims of widespread voter fraud are 100% legit,,, again as far as I can tell from my nosebleed seating section,,,,

  298. 298
    JVL says:

    More from Michigan:

    Stoddard v. City Election Comm’n of the City of Detroit

    The conservative group Election Integrity Fund filed a lawsuit in the Third Judicial Circuit of Michigan asking for a motion of injunctive relief ordering Detroit election workers to stop “curing” absentee ballots.[164] Chief Judge Timothy Kenny denied the motion for injunctive relief on November 6,[165] finding that the plaintiffs did “not offer any affidavits or specific eyewitness evidence to substantiate their assertions … Plaintiffs’ allegation is mere speculation. Plaintiffs’ pleadings do not set forth a cause of action.”[74][12] The judge noted that “sinister, fraudulent motives” were alleged, but that the “plaintiffs’ interpretation of events is incorrect and not credible”.[166] Following Kenny’s ruling, Dana Nessel, Michigan’s attorney general, issued a statement saying Michigan has “always been committed to a fair, transparent[,] and secure election that ensures every legal vote is counted”.[167]

    Gosh, I do hate it when that happens.

    In Nevada:

    Becker v. Cannizzaro

    On November 19, 2020, Republican state senate candidate April Becker filed a lawsuit against the Democratic incumbent, Nicole Cannizzaro, asking for a new election to be held. Becker challenged the use of processing machines to tabulate mail-in ballots. Plaintiffs voluntarily dismissed the suit the following day.[98][99]

    The following day? WTF was that about then?

    Stokke v. Cegavske

    On November 5, 2020, plaintiffs Jill Stokke, Chris Prudhome, Marchant for Congress, and Rodimer for Congress sued Secretary of State Barbara Cegavske and Clark County Registrar of Voters Joseph P. Gloria for illegal conduct. The initial complaint, filed in the United States District Court for the District of Nevada on November 5, 2020, accused the defendants of “illegal conduct” across three counts, including “violations of the Elections Clause”, violations of Equal Protection Clause (enforceable under 18 U.S.C. § 1983), and the “violation of Nev. Rev. Stat. §§ 293.8881 and 293.363” respectively. The complaint cited irregularities in “over 3,000 instances of ineligible individuals casting ballots”,[31] among 15 paragraphs of allegations of violating both state and federal law.
    The case was assigned to Judge Gloria M. Navarro initially and reassigned to Judge Andrew P. Gordon after Judge Navarro recused herself from the case on the same day the complaint was filed.
    On November 5, 2020, attorneys for the plaintiffs filed a motion for an emergency temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction barring defendants from violating Nevada law, the Elections Clauses, and the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, listing 14 counts, including the use of signature-verification software Agilis in Clark County.[174] Plaintiffs additionally filed a motion to expedite the hearing and briefing, which was approved by Judge Gordon on November 6; however he did not agree with the plaintiff’s assertion that the defendant’s conduct inflicted “irreparable” injury to the extent that a restraining order or temporary injunction was justified, and as such, denied the motion on the same day.
    Judge Gordon signed an order on November 9, 2020, approving pro hac vice filings in regard to attorneys Abha Khanna, John M. Devaney, and Bradley S. Schrager. Perkins Coie attorneys based in Seattle and Washington, DC required permission from the court before getting involved with the case in Nevada. According to court documents, Perkins Coie was hired to represent the defendants by the Nevada Republican Party and Democratic National Committee.
    The case was dropped by the plaintiffs on November 30, 2020.[88]

    Way to waste the courts’ time eh? Again, dropped by the plaintiffs.

    It goes on and on and on. Cases dropped by the plaintiffs, basic legal checks not done, affidavits not being specific or credible.

  299. 299
    Viola Lee says:

    Jerry writes, “It looks like a fringe group that will get little traction.”

    Except it’s been endorsed by Gen Flynn.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/12/02/calls-for-martial-law-and-us-military-oversight-of-new-presidential-elections-draws-criticism/

    The idea that the U.S. military would oversee a new nationwide presidential election — ordered under martial law by President Donald Trump — is “insane in a year that we didn’t think could get anymore insane,” a defense official tells Military Times.

    Yet retired Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn promoted that exact idea Tuesday evening when he tweeted a press release from an Ohio-based conservative political organization.

  300. 300
    JVL says:

    Jerry: The world will not be a stable place if the US breaks up. But in the short run many outside the US are getting a dopamine rush as they give the middle finger to the US. But in reality their continued existence depends on a strong US.

    This ain’t WWII pal, this time all of Europe is on the same side.

    Keep annoying foreign governments by reneging on treaties and shouting AMERICA FIRST and see where that gets you in a few more years.

  301. 301
    Bob O'H says:

    JVL @ 298 –

    It goes on and on and on. Cases dropped by the plaintiffs, basic legal checks not done, affidavits not being specific or credible.

    It’s fun following lawtwitter at the moment. One of the “basic legal checks” Powell managed to avoid doing was whether she had filled in a form before submitting it. That was after the judge had already torn several strips off the plaintiff’s lawyers for making an utter mess of their filings.
    Viola @ 299 –

    Jerry writes, “It looks like a fringe group that will get little traction.”

    Except it’s been endorsed by Gen Flynn.

    I’m sorry, I don’t see how this negates Jerry’s point.

  302. 302
    Viola Lee says:

    You’re right, Bob, Flynn is part of “a fringe group that will get little traction.” As is Powell, Wood, Dobbs, Guiliani, Ellis … The list goes on (but not to infinity!)

  303. 303
    JVL says:

    Viola Lee: but not to infinity!

    Oh god, don’t bring that up again, we’ll be catapulting into the transfinites in a few minutes. Maybe we should have a Hyper-real, commutative, transfinite weighted voting scheme.

  304. 304
    kairosfocus says:

    Giuliani Witness 1 yesterday evening: if you train and supervise civil servants in dubious behaviour, you invite systematic, entrenched corruption.

  305. 305
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, language, broken window theory. KF

  306. 306
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, language. KF

  307. 307
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, open your ears and eyes to what is going on. There may be problems, yes but there is a serious, longstanding, recently much worsened problem. One that is potentially existential. KF

  308. 308
    Viola Lee says:

    JVL at 303 🙂

  309. 309
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, all of Europe including Russia? KF

  310. 310
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, there may be differing views on ES&S, however essentially all of them share key software elements. I would toss the gadgetry and clean house on Election offices. Scrutineering and procedures require a big fix. Unfortunately, the integrity of the system cannot rise above the level of the people involved. Big problem, and one pointing to terrible breakdowns and chaos. KF

  311. 311
    mike1962 says:

    If you can’t validate a given vote, it’s invalid by definition

  312. 312
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, when you keep on pushing a matter like that, drumbeat style, it leads to a tainting effect. Many ruthless agit prop operators exploit it. I took time to respond point by point to clear up the matter, boom you want to raise another tied talking point. After a time that suggests an ad hominem. Further to this, Gen Flynn, if he endorsed is wrong, most of us have catch-up to do to learn Constitution, history and issues. KF

  313. 313
    mike1962 says:

    As Scott Adams said yesterday, if you can’t audit a given vote (chain of evidence), how do you know that a valid election occurred?

    If there is motive, means, and opportunity for a given crime that has a low cost/benefit ratio, what can you expect? Especially when “Orange Man, Literally Hitler”. Etc. Etc. (Haha.)

    3.5 years of Russia, Russia, Russia, and all of a sudden the commucrats are not interested in any investigations.

    Yeah. Think about it.

  314. 314
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL & VL, the mathematical issue on the table is that votes are inherently integer and bringing in rationals opens up all sorts of needless trouble. Your dislike for R* has nothing to do with it. KF

  315. 315
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, dozens of millions backied by substantial evidence that something is deeply wrong is not a readily dismissed fringe. Stereotyping, belittling, demonising as the despised other will send the confirmation to what is on the table. As OP shows, the marxist agitators who have been pushing a colour revolution are taking victory laps — already a wake-up call. Destructive riots are part of that push, they are not harmless protests. The failed moral duty challenge on election integrity implies: accept a spoiled election, take unpalatable backstops now or else send the message to dozens of millions that 2016 was the last reasonably fair American election and going forward the new oligarchs have a nihilistic agenda. Including, “denazification” and obvious show trials targetting those who frustrated them in that year. The 4G civil war the radicals fomented and which has been simmering for several years, will explode on that scenario. It is time to wake up and smell the smoke. KF

  316. 316
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: JVL, open your ears and eyes to what is going on. There may be problems, yes but there is a serious, longstanding, recently much worsened problem. One that is potentially existential. KF

    The question we are dealing with RIGHT NOW is: was there widespread and systemic voter fraud sponsored by (insert agency of choice here) that changed the outcome of the 2020 US Presidential election.

    So far all the US and state level agencies, including Trump buddy Attorney General Barr, have said no, there was not significant levels of fraud, nothing that would change the outcome of the election.

    Dominion Voting Systems has specifically denied many of the accusations levelled at them including that their systems ‘use’ fractional voting. I suspect this will be established sometime soon but, at the moment, Dominion has not actually been accused of anything in any on going court case. Sidney Powell talks a lot but she did not name Dominion. That is a fact.

    Many, many court case have been voluntarily dismissed BY THE PLAINTIFSS, or tossed out by the judges in question, some of whom are Trump appointees. The reasons vary from plaintiffs having no standing (an elementary mistake) to the affidavits containing no substantial information regarding wrongdoing. Some cases are continuing and some of them will be resolved soon, hopefully.

    There is simply no real evidence at all for some of the bizarre and widespread rumours such as: voting data was transferred to a Dominion server in Germany and a server in Germany was seized in a gunfight. IF Dominion was going to upload data to the cloud, manipulate it and then download it to the local pieces of equipment why would they go through a server in Germany? Does that make any kind of sense at all? No. It’s rubbish. And, again, the systems used in the local voting centres are OWNED by the local authorities or the state. Dominion SOLD them. They did NOT update the software at the last minute. They cannot access the data. They systems are auditable. They have been checked by agencies of the US government. There just isn’t anything there to worry about. It’s all just made up.

    Time and time again when specific incidents have been examined they have turned out to be hearsay or, in some cases, people not understanding the rules and regs for their local voting processing centre. “Oooo, I was told this . . . no, I don’t know who told me or when it was.” Even the Trumpsters have had to admit that their observers WERE allowed into a centre which the POTUS specifically said they were not allowed into. He doesn’t even know (or remember) what his own legal team has accepted.

    You may feel that there is a longstanding and significant cancer at the heart of the US election system. You may want the whole thing reviewed and overhauled. Fine, those of you with standing (i.e. NOT Kairosfocus) can push for those things, LEGALLY. You won’t save the system by breaking it.

    If those of you with standing really, really want to continue to spend time and effort and money on this conspiracy theory then that’s your call. But remember: the Trumpsters are suggesting the POTUS declare martial law over this. That view has been supported by several prominent fraud promoters. Is that really what you want? One of the greatest representative democracies in the world being ruled by a trumped up reality TV star with a string of failed ventures and sexual harassment cases following him like a pack of wolves? Really? Do you want to live under Trumpster martial law?

    JVL & VL, the mathematical issue on the table is that votes are inherently integer and bringing in rationals opens up all sorts of needless trouble. Your dislike for R* has nothing to do with it. KF

    hahahahahahahahahaahah. My dislike of R*?

    Some people have claimed that voting data was non-integer. Dominion has denied that. Why don’t you wait until that matter is resolved before you keep banging on the same drum over and over and over again.

  317. 317
    Viola Lee says:

    Re 314. KF, do you even have a sense of humor?

  318. 318
  319. 319
  320. 320
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL & VL et al, a third time — don’t poke the bear. KF

  321. 321
    jerry says:

    Jerry, language.

    I don’t know what you mean. If it is p***** off, change it to po’d. You have the ability to do that as administrator.

    I bet the entire military force of the EU plus the UK would be backed up to a Dunkirk in a matter of weeks if Russia decides to invade and the US was not available. Similarly for East Asia if the Chinese decided to move militarily.

  322. 322
    Bob O'H says:

    Jerry – you might be right about if Russia invades. On the other hand, they might come to a halt as their vehicles fall apart.

  323. 323
    jerry says:

    they might come to a halt as their vehicles fall apart.

    They may just commandeer all the busses and military vehicles left behind by the retreating military. Or maybe they could get their WWII tanks out of the museums. They made it to Berlin. There they could gets lots of Volkswagens.

    Not all of Europe is anti Trump. I don’t believe the Poles are. And didn’t they just propose to name a lake in the Balkans after him?

  324. 324
    jerry says:

    A teeet from Ireland

    I live in the Republic of Ireland. If democracy and freedom fails in the US, we’re all screwed in Europe, believe me. Don’t mess up!

    I wonder how many in Europe feel the same way.

  325. 325
    Viola Lee says:

    I interpret this as a message of support for the election process being upheld, and Biden taking over as president. YMMV.

  326. 326
    ET says:

    No JVL, it does NOT have to be widespread voter fraud. I am OK with limiting to 8- 12% of the States.

  327. 327
    bornagain77 says:

    Ret. Col Waldren is up now
    LIVE: Georgia Senate Committees Hold Hearings on Election Issues (Dec. 3) | NTD1:00 p.m ET
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur4vl5UTN8g

  328. 328
    orthomyxo says:

    JVL & VL, the mathematical issue on the table is that votes are inherently integer and bringing in rationals opens up all sorts of needless trouble. Your dislike for R* has nothing to do with it. Kk

    Maybe… but shouldn’t this “issue” come with any evidence whatsoever that votes where recorded as floats in any vote-counting software? The “expert” affidavits are all based on the NYT data (how else would timestamps for updates match to the second? And why would they match the state-total when counties use so many different methods to count the vote and report in different fashions?)

    That speaks pretty poorly of the experts making these claims, and makes you wonder about the reliability of that stack of affidavit that are frequently cited en masse

  329. 329
    Viola Lee says:

    Evidence presentaion in Michigan

    https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/politics/2020/12/03/michigan-ag-to-gop-on-voter-fraud-evidence-put-up-or-shut-up/

    Michigan AG to GOP on voter fraud evidence: ‘Put up or shut up’
    Lawmakers hear wild claims of fraud with no evidence

    DETROIT – One day after Rudy Giuliani and several witnesses pushed voter fraud conspiracy theories before the Michigan House Oversight Committee, Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel says it’s time to “put up or shut up” in regards to offering actual evidence.

    On Wednesday evening, Giuliani made, without being under oath, wild claims of “massive cheating,” specifically by Detroit Democrats, that he said resulted in 500,000 to 700,000 “illegal” votes. Despite Republicans’ questioning of vote counting in the city, there is no evidence to show such a discrepancy.

    Many of the claims in the hearing have already been refuted by election officials or ruled as incorrect or not credible by a judge who denied a motion to stop certification in Wayne County.

    A judge denied the suit, ruling that the interpretation of events by the plaintiffs — who ascribed “sinister, fraudulent motives’ to the city and its election workers — was “incorrect and not credible.” Trump’s legal team and his allies have lost repeatedly in courts in Michigan and other states.

    “Plaintiffs’ affiants did not have full understanding of TCF absent ballot tabulation,” Wayne County Judge Timothy Kenny said in a ruling last month.

    Michigan Attorney General, who has noted the fact that no evidence has been submitted to law enforcement to support any voter fraud claims, again called for Republicans to deliver the evidence — or to stop making claims.

    In November, AG Nessel, responding to a wild claim by former state senator Patrick Colbeck, said Colbeck never filed any complaint of election fraud, despite claiming to have evidence.

    “Colbeck’s assertions aside, intentionally making a false claim of criminal activity to law enforcement is itself a crime. It’s been my experience that is often the reason certain reports are not made,” Nessel said.

    In Detroit, Biden won 240,936 votes to Trump’s 12,889. Four years ago, Hillary Clinton received 234,871 votes to Trump’s 7,682. Election results have already been certified in Michigan.

    There is no evidence of wholesale fraud in the election. In fact, election officials from both political parties have stated publicly that the election went well and international observers confirmed there were no serious irregularities. None of the legal challenges, like GOP challengers being unable to scrutinize the counting of absentee ballots in Detroit, have shown evidence that the election outcome was impacted.

  330. 330
    Mac McTavish says:

    The Wisconsin Supreme Court on Thursday said it would not hear President Donald Trump’s latest legal attempt to challenge his loss to Joe Biden in the presidential election.

  331. 331
    bornagain77 says:

    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    Oh goody, a far left wing AG says she can see no evidence for fraud in Michigan,, after the complete fiasco at TCF in Detroit,,,

    YAWN!!!! Why is that not surprising??? I bet, given her complete blindness to evidence that is right in front of her,, she would make a very good Darwinian troll right here on UD.

  332. 332
    bornagain77 says:

    Per Wis: The good news from this lawsuit today — from a trusted friend in the Trump circle — is that the court did not rule on merit. The case was sent back to a lower court for a ruling.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/breaking-wisconsin-supreme-court-sends-trump-fraud-case-lower-court-good-news-team-trump/

  333. 333
    Viola Lee says:

    I notice, BA, that you dismiss her as “far-left” without actually addressing any of the substance of the article, such as the statement of the judge or the statement that former state senator Patrick Colbeck never filed any complaint of election fraud, despite claiming to have evidence.

  334. 334
    Mac McTavish says:

    BA77

    Per Wis: The good news from this lawsuit today — from a trusted friend in the Trump circle — is that the court did not rule on merit. The case was sent back to a lower court for a ruling.

    A competent legal team would have filed in the right court.

  335. 335
    bornagain77 says:

    VL, actually, I did watch both MIchigan hearings,,, In fact I took fairly detailed notes of the first one and the evidence therein,,, and listened to the counter arguments presented at the second one,,, The counter arguments, although they explained a few facts, the arguments failed to address many of the main pieces of evidence for voter fraud.

    Thus my personal opinion that there is plenty of evidence for widespread voter fraud in Michigan stands as unshaken,,,

    Call me old fashioned for looking to the evidence itself instead of trusting a politician’s partisan rhetoric 🙂

  336. 336
    bornagain77 says:

    A goody, Mac resorts to ad hominem argument ,,, instead of evidence,,,, to try to make his case that there is no evidence for voter fraud.

    VL,,, Do you know how many times I myself have been personally attacked by Darwinists in my debates with them??? Not to mention the countless others who have been attacked, censored, lost jobs, etc.. etc… by Darwinists???

    Shoot, it is literally the bread and butter argument of Darwinian arguments,,,

    Ad hominem is Latin for “against the man.” Instead of advancing good sound reasoning, an ad hominem replaces logical argumentation with attack-language unrelated to the truth of the matter.
    https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

  337. 337
    Sandy says:

    🙂 Footage of State Farm Arena in Atlanta shows that after poll monitors and media were told counting was done, four workers stayed behind to count ballots, at times pulling out suitcases containing ballots from underneath desks.
    LIVE- HOW TO STEAL AN ELECTION

    Method. Organised. Premeditated. Crime.

    PS: over time evidences will grow because there are too much informations that need to be verified and systematized.

  338. 338
    Mac McTavish says:

    BA77

    A goody, Mac resorts to ad hominem argument ,,, instead of evidence,,,, to try to make his case that there is no evidence for voter fraud.

    Why do I have to provide evidence? I’m not the one making claims of fraud, and then not being able to provide any supporting evidence in court.

  339. 339
    Viola Lee says:

    BA writes, “VL, Do you know how many times I myself have been personally attacked by Darwinists in my debates with them??? Not to mention the countless others who have been attacked, censored, lost jobs, etc.. etc… by Darwinists??”

    I really have no idea what “Darwinists” have to do with this discussion, but it seems to be the bane of BA’s life.

  340. 340
    Mac McTavish says:

    VL

    I really have no idea what “Darwinists” have to do with this discussion, but it seems to be the bane of BA’s life.

    I think it goes back to the pathology we touched on earlier. For some people here if you disagree with them on one subject they equate you with the Darwinist/materialist/Marxist worldview even if the point of disagreement has nothing to do with any of this. I guess it makes them feel justified in their marginalizing of your arguments without countering them with real evidence.

  341. 341
    bornagain77 says:

    HMMM,,, so an inability to judge the evidence for Intelligent Design properly does not bleed over to a person’s ability to rightly judge evidence in all other matters of their life? Really????

    Boy that is some kind of cognitive dissonance you are able to maintain in your brain without your head exploding.

    Contrary to what you may believe, since your entire worldview is based on whether you believe the universe and life are Designed or not, your inability, and/or unwillingness, to judge the evidence for Intelligent Design properly therefore bleeds over into every other facet of your life.,,, It, your worldview, is literally the basis by which you judge everything else in your life,,,

    Thus your inability to judge the evidence for Intelligent Design properly is indeed VERY much relevant to how you judge everything else in your life,,,

    For instance, and to demonstrate for everyone else to see, do you believe your ‘beyond belief’ brain was Intelligently Designed or not?

    The Human Brain Is ‘Beyond Belief’ by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. * – 2017
    Excerpt: The human brain,, is an engineering marvel that evokes comments from researchers like “beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief”1 and “a world we had never imagined.”2,,,
    Perfect Optimization
    The scientists found that at multiple hierarchical levels in the whole brain, nerve cell clusters (ganglion), and even at the individual cell level, the positioning of neural units achieved a goal that human engineers strive for but find difficult to achieve—the perfect minimizing of connection costs among all the system’s components.,,,
    Vast Computational Power
    Researchers discovered that a single synapse is like a computer’s microprocessor containing both memory-storage and information-processing features.,,, Just one synapse alone can contain about 1,000 molecular-scale microprocessor units acting in a quantum computing environment. An average healthy human brain contains some 200 billion nerve cells connected to one another through hundreds of trillions of synapses. To put this in perspective, one of the researchers revealed that the study’s results showed a single human brain has more information processing units than all the computers, routers, and Internet connections on Earth.1,,,
    Phenomenal Processing Speed
    the processing speed of the brain had been greatly underrated. In a new research study, scientists found the brain is 10 times more active than previously believed.6,7,,,
    The large number of dendritic spikes also means the brain has more than 100 times the computational capabilities than was previously believed.,,,
    Petabyte-Level Memory Capacity
    Our new measurements of the brain’s memory capacity increase conservative estimates by a factor of 10 to at least a petabyte, in the same ballpark as the World Wide Web.9,,,
    Optimal Energy Efficiency
    Stanford scientist who is helping develop computer brains for robots calculated that a computer processor functioning with the computational capacity of the human brain would require at least 10 megawatts to operate properly. This is comparable to the output of a small hydroelectric power plant. As amazing as it may seem, the human brain requires only about 10 watts to function.11 ,,,
    Multidimensional Processing
    It is as if the brain reacts to a stimulus by building then razing a tower of multi-dimensional blocks, starting with rods (1D), then planks (2D), then cubes (3D), and then more complex geometries with 4D, 5D, etc. The progression of activity through the brain resembles a multi-dimensional sandcastle that materializes out of the sand and then disintegrates.13
    He also said:
    We found a world that we had never imagined. There are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to eleven dimensions.13,,,
    Biophoton Brain Communication
    Neurons contain many light-sensitive molecules such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores, and aromatic amino acids. Even the mitochondria machines that produce energy inside cells contain several different light-responsive molecules called chromophores. This research suggests that light channeled by filamentous cellular structures called microtubules plays an important role in helping to coordinate activities in different regions of the brain.,,,
    https://www.icr.org/article/10186

    So VL, do you believe your beyond belief brain is Intelligently Designed or not????

    And if you can’t, and/or won’t, judge this evidence properly, why in blue blazes should anyone trust your judgement on anything else? You simply have lost all credibility!

    And to repeat a question that you never did answer, do you believe that you derive your constitutional rights from men or do you believe that you derive them from God?

    Government is not the source of our rights – March 10, 2018
    https://pacificlegal.org/government-is-not-the-source-of-our-rights/

  342. 342
    Viola Lee says:

    Thanks, for a reminder MMT. And BA, you don’t know what I think about “design” (whatever you mean by that), because I don’t think I’ve discussed anything about that here, and I don’t think this is the thread to start.

  343. 343
    bornagain77 says:

    Shhhsh you can’t even answer a simple question honestly. Pathetic.

  344. 344
    bornagain77 says:

    LIVE: Trump legal team presents voter fraud evidence to Nevada judge (Dec. 3) | NTD
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdPT2saxs18

    Worth a repost, here is the video that rocked the Georgia hearing today

    HUGE! Video Footage From Georgia Shows Suitcases Filled with Ballots Pulled From Under Table AFTER Supervisor Told GOP Poll Workers to Leave Tabulation Center
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/video-footage-georgia-shows-suitcases-filled-ballots-pulled-table-supervisor-told-gop-poll-workers-leave-tabulation-center/

  345. 345
    Viola Lee says:

    BA, both your questions are not simple yes/no questions, and if you think they are then you most likely are a dogmatic believer whom I wouldn’t have a very profitable discussion with any way. I have friends of many philosophical and metaphysical persuasions that I like to discuss things with (Christians of several perspectives, Hindus, people who don’t really care about philosophical issues but care about how to be a good person, New Age-y people, etc.) There are lots of interesting ideas there, but there is no simple answer to your questions: what does one believe about God and what does one believe about how the world got to be the way it is can make for a fascinating discussion, although I have no dogmatic, certain beliefs, as you obviously do. But this is not relevant here.

  346. 346
    bornagain77 says:

    VL, the question put to you, (after you were presented with overwhelming evidence for the Intelligent Design of your brain), was simply “So VL, do you believe your beyond belief brain is Intelligently Designed or not????”

    The answer to that question is a one syllable word, i.e. yes or no.

    Yet you refused to be honest and answer that simple question with a yes or no answer, but instead you chose to call me “a dogmatic believer” which is, of course, a ad hominem attack! SURPRISE!!! 🙂

    And in spite of you trying to play games, it was a dishonest answer that revealed everything I needed to know about you,,,, i.e. Primarily, you are being intellectually dishonest,,,,.

    Too sad! There is far more at stake than you can possibly realize right now,,,

    September 2020 – “Where this gets interesting is that, whereas atheists have no experimental evidence supporting their unfounded conjectures for multiverses, Christians, on the other hand, can appeal directly to Special Relativity, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics, (i.e. our most precisely tested theories ever in the history of science), to support their belief that God upholds this universe in its continual existence, as well as to support their belief in a heavenly dimension and in a hellish dimension.”
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicists-life-forms-could-flourish-in-the-interior-of-stars/#comment-711489

    As to life after death, Here is the testimony of a Harvard Doctor who had a deep NDE

    The Easter Question – Eben Alexander, M.D. – Harvard – March 2013?Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,,?Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that — a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn’t simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one.?But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it’s-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,,?We are, really and truly, made in God’s image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation — one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone.?But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It’s not the world we actually live in.,,,
    He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer… and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....79741.html

  347. 347
    Mac McTavish says:

    BA77

    Shhhsh you can’t even answer a simple question honestly. Pathetic.

    Why do you think that anyone is obliged to tell you what they believe? We are talking about the possibility of election fraud, not design or religion. If you can’t limit your arguments to this then maybe you should go to a different thread.

  348. 348
    Viola Lee says:

    Yes, I don’t need, or care, about BA’s evangelizing, and I don’t think that it’s reasonable for anyone who doesn’t believe as he does to be castigated into the category of someone who can’t assess evidence. Maybe you oldtimers here are used to this (seems like you are), but I’m not obligated to buy it.

  349. 349
    bornagain77 says:

    And why do you think it is important to NOT tell me what you believe?,,, If it truly was as inconsequential to the topic at hand as you are trying to claim, then you would, of course, answer the simply question with a short yes or no answer and be done with it.

    So again, why is it so important for you to NOT tell me what you believe? i.e. was your brain designed or was it not,,,, yes or no? A one syllable answer!

    Your refusal to be honest in your answer reveals more than you realize!

  350. 350
    Viola Lee says:

    Because it is more complicated question than just yes/no. The fact that you don’t recognize that is your problem, not mine. For instance, do you mean that mankind, including all of his body, was created ex nihilo according to a specific plan by the the Christian God. Or would believing in the design of a God like that of someone like Francis Collins count? Or design by Allah, or Brahma. Or design by the continual creation of the all aspects of the world by some Cosmic All or Cosmic Consciousness not related to any particular religion? Or does design necessarily imply conscious plan and then an implementation by a transcendent God, or can an immanent diffuse creative force bring forth design. One can’t believe all these things, but there are certainly strong believers in each of them.

    And dogmatic is not an ad hominem. It is a description of a certain type of attitude towards one’s beliefs. For instance, the first dictionary definition that I got on the internet was “inclined to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true”, and that appears to fit you, and it doesn’t apply to me.

    Sorry for the off-topic spiel, folks, but BA needs to let it go. I know this thread is about politics, not religion or philosophy, but I object to being told that I can’t read and think and assess evidence, even if I come to conclusions different than most of you, without being thrown into some nebulous “Darwinist” category that disqualifies me from being a legitimate participant in the discussion.

  351. 351
    Mac McTavish says:

    VL, I couldn’t have said it better.

    I don’t have a view on ID because I have not made a point of examining it. I simply don’t find it all that interesting. That is why I don’t discuss it.

    With regard to my religious views, those are my business.

    However, I find it disingenuous to be classified as a Darwinist/materialist/Marxist/left-wing agitator just because I disagree with some here about the supposed evidence of widespread election fraud, or about SSM. Frankly, it says far more about those who do this than it does about me. And not in a good way.

    Again, I apologize for the tangent, but I felt it had to be said.

  352. 352
    kairosfocus says:

    Ortho, nice dance move step shift. Kindly go back to the DNA software, through the window of the leaked emails; cf. previous OP, U/D 25-26 IIRC. There you will find discussion of floating point values, i.e. rational numbers, on the subject of rounding. In addition, there is out there stuff on examination, with listed double precision variables as data type. Further, the root issue is attitudinal, a matter of distinct identity, a vote is inherently integer, and coming through a chain of custody to the point of being counted. That COUNT, should be reported as extending the chain to reporting the results of the COUNTING to the public and their media proxies. This includes the COUNTED totals for candidates, including that there are more than two, e.g. the Greens, Taxpayers, Libertarians, write-ins such as Mr Kanye West etc. KF

  353. 353
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, VL, BA77, we have already had a round over agendas and fellow travellers. Though such are underlying factors and it is noteworthy that there are indeed strong correlations of views and influences, such is tangential to the main focus of this thread. I will note that the undermining of core morality through the rise of atheism and fellow traveller views influenced by Darwinism as perceived plausibility factor, is part of what we are facing. As for being in denial of widespread fraud, there is something that is studiously evaded that sets up the high plausibility that the notorious history of machine politics is being spun up to a destructively higher level through the destabilising factor of mass, effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots. That injection in the face of long established evidence on its characteristics, is decisive. And if ever something was needed to further show intent, it seems this and similarly ruinous pushes are slated for HR1, upcoming, as I linked on above. This is an existential issue. KF

    PS: The key to recognising the plausibility that what was pushed for is being carried out, the failed moral duty challenge . . . and undermining of moral fibre and the linked understanding that justice is a constitutive element of our moral government and so of law from its roots, is a relevant underlying issue:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    PPS: Notice, how patently sincere, consistent and credible eyewitnesses are being treated. I particularly observe that when civil servants are diverted from normal duties, then are instructed, pressured and demanded to act in dubious ways, that is intimidating, demoralising and corrupting in influence. Detroit in particular, has sown the wind and is reaping the whirlwind.

    PPPS: the GA after closing count, suitcase pull-out and count video should recalibrate the discussion. However, I must note that insistence on video or the like as “proof” is doubly counter-productive. For, eyewitness testimony from a witness of truth is about the strongest evidence of fact there is, and routine undermining of such undermines in the end any report, this is a Categorical Imperative evil, in short. Indeed, even the reports of those challenging, records of scientific observation, documents etc all become suspect, ending in self-referential absurdity. We are also moving into an era of high tech video editing fakery that restores a situation where reliable eyewitness report is the only real defence against fraud.

  354. 354
    JVL says:

    Mac McTavish: Why do you think that anyone is obliged to tell you what they believe? We are talking about the possibility of election fraud, not design or religion. If you can’t limit your arguments to this then maybe you should go to a different thread.

    If you are one of those imbecilic, evidence-denying Darwinists then it’s easier to dismiss other opinions you have. So it can come down to one simple question: do you believe in design in nature, yes or no?

  355. 355
    bornagain77 says:

    Sorry KF for belaboring the issue, but I just note in passing that our left wing opponents, who have robotically repeated throughout this thread that they see no evidence of widespread voter fraud, have danced around. instead of honestly answering, a simple straightforward Yes/No question about seeing evidence for Design,,, A simply question that goes to the very core of their worldview, (no matter how may one try to parse that worldview out). Which is a far bigger tell as to their disingenuous agenda on this thread than they apparently realize.

    KF, here is an even simpler question that I could have asked them that is even more direct to their core worldview and to the voting issue that is at hand, i.e. JVL and VL, “do you believe in free will or not? Yes or No? ,,,, ”

    But I will not ask it KF since it, though directly related to the voting issue at hand, is still tangental to the voting issue at hand, and since JVL and VL have already clearly demonstrated that they are far more interested in disingenuous rhetoric than they are interested in ever honestly answering the simple yes/no question that was put to them with a simple yes/no answer., Basically, more interested in dishonest rhetoric than they are interested in having a truly honest discussion,,,

    Telling and Sad,,,

  356. 356
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N, U/D6, showing the capability for decimal-fraction value votes and built-in modules for their manipulation in the GEMS DNA software. Note, Bev Harris got leaked materials in 2003, likely from a whistleblower as it includes internal emails and actual live software modules. Blackbox Voting notes that similar capabilities, c 2016, were embedded in machines used for about 98 or 99 percent of the US voting population. The capability, credibly is there. The implied attitudes and wrongful intent are even more clear. KF

  357. 357
    bornagain77 says:

    They Identified the person that was seen in the explosive film that was shown at the Georgia hearing yesterday,,,

    What’s Up, Ruby?… BREAKING: Crooked Operative Filmed Pulling Out Suitcases of Ballots in Georgia IS IDENTIFIED By Jim Hoft – December 3, 2020
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/ruby-breaking-crooked-democrat-filmed-pulling-suitcases-ballots-georgia-identified/

    ,,, gonna need a bigger bag of popcorn 🙂 !

  358. 358
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, 316:

    those of you with standing (i.e. NOT Kairosfocus) can push for those things, LEGALLY. You won’t save the system by breaking it.

    The issue is in the end highly significant for the global economy, for the stability of the global geostrategic balance and for the simple survival of credible general elections, so the material issue is that all 7.5 billion of us and our posterity are STAKEHOLDERS. In that context, fair comment is a global right given that the US is the leading maritime power that stabilises the world AND the first modern Constitutional Republic of Democratic Character.

    I have commented as a global stakeholder.

    Next, you insist on refusing to cogently address the pivot of the argument, the moral duty challenge on public facts, which has been long since failed and is currently being worsened through the injection of effectively uncontrolled mail-in ballots and 3rd party ballot harvesting. I note, again, on the challenge that you and other objectors refuse to address substantially and cogently:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    This decisively shifts the balance of plausibility on likelihood of material election manipulation and linked fraud. Especially where as I just further documented, vote manipulation capability is built in in the DNA software. (I guess, it would be presented in marketing as what-if modelling. It however has capability to manipulate and to conceal manipulation, in real time; software response time on databases of millions of votes and a very large number of precincts being in seconds to a minute or a few.)

    Let me update, from current news, regarding onward action intent:

    Nancy Pelosi Vows Congress Will Pass ‘Election Reform’ Bill: Criminalized Political Speech, Pre-Paid Absentee Ballots
    Hannah Bleau6 Nov 2020

    [ . . . ]

    In a letter to her colleagues on Friday in which she formally requested their support to reelect her as speaker of the House, Pelosi said Democrats will prioritize “championing progress” for LGBTQ Americans, women, seniors, and frontline communities, as well as “remove barriers to the ballot box so that the American people can make their voices heard” in the 117th Congress.

    “Our Democratic House will proudly pass our election reform, anti-corruption, and voting rights legislation by passing H.R.1 on the first day of the new Congress,” she vowed in the letter.

    Democrats tried to advance H.R.1, also known as the “For the People Act,” last year, which specifically “expands voter registration and voting access and limits removing voters from voter rolls,” according to a summary of the bill.

    A “Memo to the Movement” from the Conservative Action Project highlighted a number of the objectives outlined in the bill, which includes the criminalization of political speech and the automatic registration of voters.

    “Conservatives are united in opposing H.R. 1, the attempt by House Democrats to fundamentally undermine the American electoral system,” the memo stated . . .

    In case, the packaging misleads, here is Sen Cotton’s reply (as I linked under don’t poke the bear):

    Tom Cotton: House Democrats Want National Mandate for Vote-by-Mail, Ballot Harvesting, Ending Photo-ID for Voting
    Robert Kraychik 3 Dec 2020

    Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) noted on Wednesday’s edition of SiriusXM’s Breitbart News Daily how House Democrats’ legislative priorities include a national mandate for mail-in voting, legalization of ballot harvesting, and ending photo-ID requirements for voting.

    “It’s a tradition that a new House majority reserves its top priority for what they call H.R. 1 — House Resolution number one — the very first bill that’s introduced,” Cotton explained. “H.R. 1, under Nancy Pelosi, was a radical election law bill that would have mandated universal mail-out balloting in every state of the union. It would have required states to permit ballot harvesting. It wouldn’t have only prohibited photo identification — which [is] needful — it would have prohibited even signature verification.”

    H.R. 1, dubbed the “For the People Act,” would nationally mandate automated mailing out of ballots to registered voters for elections while prohibiting states from having photo-ID requirements for ballot submission or signature verification of ballots.

    [MEDIA LINK]

    Cotton continued, “[H.R. 1 would] impose draconian restrictions on campaign spending, so Republicans and conservatives can’t spend our own money to get our message out while the Democrats rely on tech giants and the mainstream media to get their message out. So unfortunately, I don’t see Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats in the House taking many steps to protect the interior [–> integrity?] of our elections, so it’ll really be incumbent upon Republicans at the state level — especially in those states that have have had troubled elections [and] have the biggest problems — over the next two to four years — like Pennsylvania, like Michigan, like Wisconsin — to take steps to protect the integrity of their ballots.”

    In short, if this succeeds, the last reasonably fair election in the soon to be former Constitutional Republic, the USA, would have been 2016. The ideological, Marxism-influenced oligarchs are consolidating their nomenklatura by ensuring they can fix all future elections.

    The mere fact that this was tried already is a warning shot. If it is put in place, it is “long train of abuses and usurpations” level causus belli.

    And that is literally meant.

    We are already in a low grade, shadows level global war with the 4GW civil war in the US as a pivotal theatre of operations. The consequences of the intents of the mutineers trying to take over the ship of state would be catastrophic.

    Not only for the US, but for anyone who is a stakeholder of liberty, even for those of us whose only power to act is to speak out.

    Such as, the undersigned:

    GEM of TKI

    KF

  359. 359
    Sandy says:

    Mac McTavish
    However, I find it disingenuous to be classified as a Darwinist/materialist/Marxist/left-wing agitator just because I disagree with some here about the supposed evidence of widespread election fraud

    You should be proud and joyfull when you are called darwinist/materialist /leftist if these ideeas are true. Or not?
    Our worldview is the source for anything we think because all ideeas are integrated to fit our worldview frame . Ideeas don’t just float in the air independent of person’s worldview .
    When a person refuze to be open/proud about his worldview it’s a red flag.
    PS:it’s true theists have also their part of guilt when they confound sin with sinner, when in fact Jesus said hate the sin but love the sinner.It’s a thin line.
    PPS:it’s true some atheists take advantage of christians “turning other cheek” but when christians see the callousness of (some)atheists then they overreact . Atheists then overreact to overreaction that themselves stirred in the first place.

  360. 360
    bornagain77 says:

    KF, I note that this story simply refuses to go away,,,

    What’s Going On with the Server Reportedly Obtained in Germany Related to the 2020 Election?
    By Joe Hoft – December 3, 2020
    Excerpt: Here’s what we know.
    On the Monday following the election, President Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper. Christopher Miller, who serves as director of the National Counterterrorism Center, replaced Esper. ,,,
    Then in one of his first moves on November 18th, Acting Defense Secretary made military special ops report directly to him along with the Secretaries of the Army, Navy and Air Force:,,,
    At about the same time on November 16th we heard from Rep. Louie Gohmert that people on the ground in Germany report that Scytl, which hosted elections data improperly through Spain, was raided by a large US ARMY force and their servers were seized in Frankfurt.,,,
    A short time later Sidney Powell commented on the server but she didn’t know who it was who captured the machines,,,
    But by the 21st of November the excellent reporter at Newsmax, Emerald Robinson, tweeted that she did hear that a piece of hardware had been secured in Germany,,,
    We have heard from another source that the US does indeed have the server that was captured in Germany.
    On Tuesday in Arizona we next heard that the US has the traffic and packets sent overseas during the 2020 election:
    Colonel Waldron also shared in Arizona that there were hundreds looking into the Dominion system.,,,
    What we do know in summary, is that there was a server in Germany that was obtained by the US. We also know that a team of military cyber specialists have the traffic and packets sent to Germany during the 2020 election. ,,,
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/going-server-reportedly-obtained-germany-related-2020-election/

    I note that having the ‘traffic and packets sent overseas during the 2020 election’ does not necessarily mean that they have the hardware itself,,,, since not having ‘permission’ to investigate Dominion software does not necessarily prevent ‘white hat’ hackers from hacking Dominion so as to obtain “the traffic and packets sent overseas during the 2020 election”,,,

    So, IMHO, I still don’t buy the ‘Tom Clancy’ narrative of a special ops raid in Germany,,, The information on data flow on election night could have been obtained, more easily I might add, by other means,,,

  361. 361

    VL,

    I would agree that martial law and suspension of the constitution are anti-ethical to the spirit and intention of the constitution. Martial law by itself is not. Fortunately, as KF pointed out, the framers and those that soon followed (insurrection act of 1807) anticipated events such as we are witnessing and gave the President extremely broad powers to act in defense of the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic.

  362. 362
    AndyClue says:

    Hm. Even though the Frankfurt story is probably false, I’m happy the falsehood gained so much traction. Just look at that:
    > In an unexpected silver lining to the theories, a fundraiser for McKee’s pregnant widow and two sons that had not received donations since before Thanksgiving now has more than 140 new donors apparently moved by the conspiracy theory. One individual accompanied a $500 donation with a note reading, “He lost his life fighting for truth!”
    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/12/01/this-retired-three-star-falsely-claims-us-soldiers-died-attacking-a-cia-facility-in-germany-tied-to-election-fraud/

  363. 363
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Blast from the past, from a Democrat, Atty at Law John C. Bonifaz , 10 YA:

    3. On July 6th 2010 he highlighted to the Technical Guidelines Development Committee
    and Its UOCAVA Working Group what is, in essence, the exact same concerns that the Trump team including @SidneyPowell1 @RudyGiuliani @LLinWood have repeatedly underscored over the last few weeks . . .

    [enclosed letter]

    4. If you didn’t know that this was from 2010, you’d be convinced that this was a document written by the Trump team to make their case for election tampering. Which makes the existence of this decade old document absolutely astonishing.
    The juciest excerpts follow.
    5. “federal charges against voting systems company Diebold and its former chief executive officer Walden W. O?Dell during the years in which Diebold made voting systems, and in which O?Dell wrote a letter in which he said he would deliver Ohio for then-President George Bush”

    6. “the swift rise this spring of Dominion, a little-
    known foreign company engaged in Internet voting and with no reported income, to become
    the first or second largest voting machine company in the United States, after purchasing, in
    May 2010, voting systems made by Diebold”

    7. “Diebold formerly was the second largest voting
    systems company in the U.S. and no longer has a U.S. voting systems business), and after
    purchasing, in June 2010, Sequoia Voting Systems, the voting machines of which rely on.. ”
    8. “proprietary source code developed and owned by Smartmatic, a company headquartered in
    Venezuela with ties to the Hugo Chavez government of Venezuela”
    9. “The movement of
    cyber security legislation to the U.S. Senate floor as cyber warfare from foreign nations and persons accelerate”
    10. “A major challenge of internet voting (and of any form of electronic voting) is that there
    is no known way to confidently audit electronic voted ballots, including ballots
    generated by email, fax, or phone voting.”
    (Isn’t this exactly what we’re saying right now?)
    11. While fraudulent transactions occur in commerce, we
    eventually detect them, because commercial transactions create records that are
    checked by the people who are allegedly the originators of the transactions.”
    12. “Election
    theft is much harder to detect, because there is only one transaction per person, and
    that person has no way to later audit his or her vote.”
    13. “If no reliable post-election audit or recount is conducted, then incorrect software or
    malicious code could result in the wrong candidate being declared the winner. . . .

    [ADDED: 17. “Dominion, Now the Largest or Second Largest Voting System Company, Is Foreign Controlled and Depends Upon Secret Source Code Created and Owned by Smartmatic, a Foreign Controlled Company With Ties to The Venezuelan
    Government Led by Hugo Chavez”
    (He said this 10 years ago) ”

    In short, warning after warning was given, but it was full speed ahead on a ‘bergy foggy night.

    KF

  364. 364
    Bob O'H says:

    ba77 –

    I note that having the ‘traffic and packets sent overseas during the 2020 election’ does not necessarily mean that they have the hardware itself,,,,

    I agree. I think (but I’m not sure) that this information can be obtained from the DNS servers, so hacking might not even be necessary.

  365. 365
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: As was noted in U/D17 to the previous OP:

    https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/39542.htm

    >>Ambassador John Tefft, Deputy Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs
    Testimony Before the House International Relations Committee
    Washington, DC
    December 7, 2004

    As prepared

    Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, I am pleased to be here today to discuss with you current developments in Ukraine and U.S. policy.

    As requested, I shall provide our assessment of the problems in the election that led to the current crisis, the U.S. position on the negotiations and other efforts aimed at resolving the crisis, the lessons learned in the earlier votes that could be useful in helping avoid a repeat of the fraud and abuse, the role of U.S. policy in helping to resolve the crisis, the impact of the current situation on other countries in the region, and an assessment of U.S. policy options for the period after the situation is resolved . . . .

    The current crisis came to a head when the Ukrainian people rejected the massive fraud and abuse that characterized the November 21 second round of the presidential election. The numerous problems that characterized the voting in the election’s second round, however, were the culmination of months of irregularities, intimidation, and abuse by the pro-presidential side. In fact, the entire presidential campaign for almost the last year was plagued by difficulties. In his testimony before your Subcommittee on Europe last May, my predecessor, Deputy Assistant Secretary Steven Pifer, described in detail the many problems in the electoral campaign, including harassment of opposition politicians and those who supported them; obstruction and preclusion of opposition campaign events; abuse of state resources to support the government’s candidate, Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych; a near-monopoly of media attention for Yanukovych; violence and intimidation directed against independent media outlets; and eleventh-hour attempts to change the Ukrainian Constitution to extend the current authorities’ hold on power. Despite strong messages from the United States, including from President Bush, and the international community against such actions, the Ukrainian authorities made little effort to rectify these imbalances. These problems in the campaign persisted up to the moment voting began.

    The first round of balloting on October 31, too, was plagued by numerous problems and irregularities. The report of the observer mission of the OSCE’s Office of Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) found that the first round failed to meet a considerable number of international standards for democratic elections and, thus, represented a “step backwards” from the 2002 Rada election, the last major election in Ukraine. Despite the many problems in the first round, however, there was no serious doubt that opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko and Prime Minister Yanukovych received more votes than any of the other candidates (39.87 percent and 39.32 percent, respectively, as determined by the Central Election Commission) and were thus entitled to run in the second round on November 21. (Ukrainian law provides that if no candidate receives a majority of the votes cast in the presidential election, the two candidates who received the largest number of votes should stand for a winner-take-all second round of voting held several weeks after the first round.) In their reports, the OSCE and other election observers detailed a number of ways in which Ukraine’s electoral machinery needed to be fixed or adjusted in order to make the second round of voting free and fair to both candidates.

    Despite the hopes of the Ukrainian people and the international community that the Ukrainian authorities would heed those recommendations, the second round of voting featured even greater and more widespread fraud and abuse. Senator Lugar, in Ukraine as President Bush’s representative, who testified before you today, noted “a concerted and forceful program of election day fraud and abuse…with either the leadership or cooperation of the governmental authorities.” The OSCE/ODIHR’s report said that the election did not meet “a considerable number” of international standards, and that, as in the first round, state executive authorities and the Central Election Commission displayed a lack of will to conduct a genuinely democratic election process. ODIHR assessed the second round “less favorably” than the tainted October 31 first round vote. A U.S.-funded foreign NGO observer mission also described “a coordinated, systematic pattern of major violations leading to an outcome that does not reflect the will of the Ukrainian people.”

    The following are examples of the most egregious, widely observed and reported examples of election-day fraud on November 21:

    Illegal Use of Absentee Ballots: According to the respected NGO “Committee of Voters of Ukraine” (CVU), massive electoral fraud was committed through the illegal use of absentee voter certificates. For example, people were caught in Dnipropetrovsk and Sumy oblasts with their pockets stuffed with blank absentee ballots that they were using to vote at multiple polling stations.

    Opposition Observers Ejected: Observers from Our Ukraine and other opposition groups were expelled from most polling stations in eastern Ukraine on Election Day. For example, in Territorial Election Commission (TEC) district number 42 in Donetsk oblast, Our Ukraine observers were kicked out of all but a few polling stations.

    North Korean-Style Turnout in the East: Turnout in the pro-Yanukovych eastern oblasts was unnaturally high. In several electoral districts, turnout for the run-off round increased by 30 to 40 percent over the first round. In Luhansk oblast, the reported turnout rate hit nearly 96 percent — a number that, to quote the OSCE, even Stalinist North Korea would envy. A similar turnout rate was reported in Donetsk oblast, where 98 percent of the votes went to hometown candidate Prime Minister Yanukovych.

    Mobile Ballot Box Fraud: In the second round of the election, the number of voters who supposedly cast ballots at home using mobile ballot boxes was double that of the first round. Much of this voting occurred without observers being present and was massively fraudulent. In Mykolayiv oblast, for example, nearly 35 percent of the oblast’s voters purportedly cast their ballots “at home.”

    Computer Data Allegedly Altered To Favor Yanukovych: There were credible reports showing that that Yanukovych supporters gained illegal access to the Central Election Commission’s computer system and illegally altered vote tabulation data being transmitted by TECs to the CEC.

    Reports of Opposition Fraud: Yanykovych’s supporters allege that Yushchenko’s supporters stuffed ballot boxes in western Ukraine. But the reports and evidence of pro-Yanukovych fraud greatly outweighed those indicated for Yushchenko.

    This massive ballot-box stuffing, fake turnout figures, and other forms of fraud and abuse allowed the authorities to create a victory for their candidate that almost certainly would not have been possible in a free and fair election. The final figures announced by the Central Election Commission (CEC) gave Prime Minister Yanukovych with 49.46 percent of the vote over opposition candidate Yushchenko with 46.61 percent. It is impossible to know what the real numbers were, but a large-scale (20,000 respondents), nation-wide anonymous exit poll conducted by a consortium of three highly respected research organizations (partially funded by the United States Government) projected Yushchenko the winner with 53 percent versus 44 percent for Yanukovych. Other exit polls and parallel vote counts indicated a Yushchenko victory, although by lesser amounts. >>

    Now, the shoe is on the other foot.

    KF

  366. 366
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: From 1273 in the previous thread, re the 1994 PA case:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/19/us/vote-fraud-ruling-shifts-pennsylvania-senate.html?smid=tw-share

    Saying Philadelphia’s election system had collapsed under “a massive scheme” by Democrats to steal a State Senate election in November, a Federal judge today took the rare step of invalidating the vote and ordered the seat filled by the Republican candidate.

    In making such a sweeping move, the judge, Clarence C. Newcomer of Federal District Court here, did for the Republicans what the election had not: enable them to regain control of the State Senate, which they lost two years ago.

    Judge Newcomer ruled that the Democratic campaign of William G. Stinson had stolen the election from Bruce S. Marks in North Philadelphia’s Second Senatorial District through an elaborate fraud in which hundreds of residents were encouraged to vote by absentee ballot even though they had no legal reason — like a physical disability or a scheduled trip outside the city — to do so.

    In many instances, according to Republicans who testified during a four-day civil trial last week, Democratic campaign workers forged absentee ballots. On many of the ballots, they used the names of people who were living in Puerto Rico or serving time in prison, and in one case, the voter had been dead for some time.

    “Substantial evidence was presented establishing massive absentee ballot fraud, deception, intimidation, harassment and forgery,” Judge Newcomer wrote in a decision made public today.

    The district, which includes white, black and Hispanic neighborhoods, is overwhelmingly Democratic by registration. Nonetheless, campaign workers testified that widespread voter apathy had prompted them to promote a “new way to vote” to insure a victory. Door to Door for Votes . . . .

    “This is extraordinary relief,” Judge Newcomer wrote. “However, it is appropriate because extraordinary conduct by the Stinson campaign and the board tainted the entirety of the absentee ballots.” . . . .

    The judge decided to hear the case after state election officials and state courts rejected the Republicans’ claims. The Republicans have an appeal pending before the state’s highest court. They went to Federal court on the ground that there were violations of the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act . . . >>

    An all too familiar pattern.

    See what the moral duty challenge addresses?

    Notice, this has been on the table for weeks, with modus operandi documented from court case and NYT report.

    Established pattern is itself a factor in evaluating balance of plausibilities.

    As is insistence on paving the way for fraud.

    KF

  367. 367
    kairosfocus says:

    Laying again, the public facts baseline.

  368. 368
    Bob O'H says:

    kf – the difference between the Marks complaint and the current complaints is that in that one the judge found “Substantial evidence was presented establishing massive absentee ballot fraud, deception, intimidation, harassment and forgery”, whereas the current complaints have been so flimsy they haven’t even got to discovery – in some cases judges have decided that even if the factual claims are true, they wouldn’t be enough to conclude fraud.

  369. 369
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: New Business, following up BA77:

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/12/03/video-georgia-vote-counters-suitcases-ballots-table-observers-media-leave/

    >>President Donald Trump’s attorney, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, presented bombshell evidence from surveillance cameras that appeared to catch cases of “absentee and military” ballots being pulled out from under a table to be counted in Fulton County, Georgia.

    The alleged incident occurred at 10:30 p.m. at State Farm Arena after counting allegedly stopped when the observers and other workers were told to go home.

    The woman testifying said she witnessed four “suitcases” be pulled out from under the table. That occurred after a supervisor “with blond braids” told poll workers to leave the room. Four people, including the woman with the braids who told the others to leave, stayed behind to continue counting votes, according to the allegation.

    “So what are these ballots doing there separate from all the other ballots and why are they only counting them whenever the place is cleared out with no witnesses?” Jacki Pick, a Trump legal team volunteer, asked the Georgia Senate.

    Pick said the unobserved counting went on from 10:30 p.m. until about 1:00 a.m. The attorney alleged the counting resumed only after the Republican observers and members of the media left the room.

    Jenna Ellis, a member of Trump’s legal team, said it indicated “fraud.”>>

    This of course happens to be backed up through surveillance video.

    This, is a test . . .

    KF

  370. 370
    bornagain77 says:

    KF, Gov Kemp, due in large part to the bombshell video yesterday, is calling for a signature audit,,,
    video
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7xvhsk

    Kyle Becker
    9h ago – GEORGIA.
    GA Gov. Kemp is calling on Sec. of State Raffensperger to call for a *SIGNATURE AUDIT* of votes.
    Kemp appeared on The Ingraham Angle in the wake of damning security cam footage that showed poll workers in Fulton County illegally processing ballots with no observers.
    https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1334703575109427200

  371. 371
    ET says:

    Mac, JVL, Viola, Bob O’H, seversky, et al., the point of being a Darwinist is that it is obvious that you are incapable of assessing evidence. The same goes for anyone who merely denies that ID is scientific. That’s just the way it is. You only go along with the alleged experts that you think you agree with.

    Not one of you is investigating the alleged voter fraud. Not one of you has any knowledge into what is being investigated. And every one of you has to deny eyewitness testimony.

    So no one is going to listen to anything you have to say about it.

  372. 372

    Rudy Guiliani road grades those who say “there is no evidence.”
    #ThugLife
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgBwW0FpMeE

  373. 373
    kairosfocus says:

    H’mm, after it was announced that all was hunky dory with the ballot count? That sounds a bit late, or does he realise that the legislature or the US Congress can act on the tainted slate of electors. KF

    PS: Scripture about that notorious Kraken answering to the name, YHWH and noted for riding on storm clouds:

    Ps 2 2 Why do the nations rage[a]
    and the peoples plot in vain?
    2
    The kings of the earth set themselves,
    and the rulers take counsel together,
    against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
    3
    “Let us burst their bonds apart
    and cast away their cords from us.”

    4
    He who sits in the heavens laughs;
    the Lord holds them in derision.
    5
    Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
    and terrify them in his fury, saying,
    6
    “As for me, I have set my King
    on Zion, my holy hill.”

    7
    I will tell of the decree:
    The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
    today I have begotten you.
    8
    Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
    and the ends of the earth your possession.
    9
    You shall break[b] them with a rod of iron
    and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

    10
    Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
    be warned, O rulers of the earth.
    11
    Serve the Lord with fear,
    and rejoice with trembling.
    12
    Kiss the Son,
    lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
    for his wrath is quickly kindled.
    Blessed are all who take refuge in him. [ESV]

  374. 374
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM, wow, THREE cases not thirty-nine, boom. 2,000 affidavits sworn under oath and penalty of perjury, and doubtless more to roll out, ka-boom. Member to be disciplined by court of peers for breach of parliamentary immunity from ordinary defamation action, secondary ka-ta-boom. Implicit, the member signalling intent to dox and harass a witness by demanding even her maiden name should take due notice. KF

  375. 375
    ET says:

    Thanks again, William. Brilliant.

  376. 376
    bornagain77 says:

    via WJM’s link,,, Here is a more complete clip of the secret cases that were brought out when everyone else was told to leave because of the fake water pipe story,,,

    VIDEO EVIDENCE: Secret Cases FULL of Ballots In Georgia!? | Louder With Crowder
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ9YGSMY2xg

    Cue VL, JVL , mainstream media..etc… to deny that they see any evidence for voter fraud here,,, ‘nothing to see here’,,, ‘move along’,,, they will say,,,

  377. 377
    Bob O'H says:

    ET –

    Not one of you is investigating the alleged voter fraud.

    True. The same is true for ba77, kf, Sandy, etc, of course.

    Not one of you has any knowledge into what is being investigated.

    Oh, so they’re not investigating what happened at the TCF center. Or statistical patterns in the voting data. Or the operation of Dominion voting machines. Or internet contact between a Dominion server and Europe. Or a (non-existent) server in Frankfurt, or possibly Bielefeld. Or processing of boxes in Fulton County, Georgia.

    So what is being investigated?

    And every one of you has to deny eyewitness testimony.

    I think we’re denying the interpretation or relevance of the events that were witnessed. On the TCF center explicitly, the interpretation was rejected by a circuit court judge, who heard the evidence from both sides.

    So no one is going to listen to anything you have to say about it.

    Fair enough. Nobody has to listen to what I say (except my students, in limited circumstances).

  378. 378
    Viola Lee says:

    BA writes, “KF, here is an even simpler question that I could have asked them that is even more direct to their core worldview and to the voting issue that is at hand, i.e. JVL and VL, “do you believe in free will or not? Yes or No? ”

    Yes.

    Although understanding what that means exactly, how it interacts with the physical world, where it comes from, etc. is a question that, once again, is answered in many different philosophical and religious ways. I don’t know the answers to those questions, but I accept the fact that I experience my ability to make choices, and consider taking responsibility for them a key moral obligation.

  379. 379
    JVL says:

    BornAgain77: But I will not ask it KF since it, though directly related to the voting issue at hand, is still tangental to the voting issue at hand

    Is that like being a wave and a particle at the same time? If I observe the situation will it become one or the other?

  380. 380
    bornagain77 says:

    VL, there in no ambiguity, free will is THE defining property of the immaterial mind that clearly distinguishes agent causality from all other forms of secondary causality.,,, It is THE defining property on the immaterial mind that allows us to act as free and rational agents instead on ‘meat robots’ as Jerry Coyne has termed us,,,,,,

  381. 381
    ET says:

    Earth to Bob O’H- THOUSANDS of affidavits testifying to voter fraud. THAT is what is being investigated.

  382. 382
    Viola Lee says:

    Re 379: Yes, here is the question I would ask if I were going to ask a question, but since I’ve been asked to not ask a question, I won’t ask it. 🙂

  383. 383
    bornagain77 says:

    More detailed information comes in on the identity of the woman in the video,,

    BREAKING: CROOKED GEORGIA ELECTIONS SUPERVISER Filmed Pulling Out Suitcases of Ballots from Beneath Table IS IDENTIFIED — IT’S RUBY’S DAUGHTER! (Video)
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/breaking-crooked-elections-superviser-filmed-pulling-suitcases-ballots-georgia-identified-rubys-daughter-video/

    What are the odds that she ‘disappears’ like Eric Coomer and Hunter Biden did?,,, 🙂

  384. 384
    Bob O'H says:

    Here’s another report of the Georgia ballots. Let the hyper-scepticism begin!

  385. 385
    bornagain77 says:

    “Let the hyper-scepticism begin!” LOL, sorry Bob, you guys beat us to the “hyper-scepticism” part a very long time ago,,, 🙂

    Don’t look too hard at your supposed rebuttal though, if falls apart under the slightest scrutiny,,,

    for example, Poll watchers told to leave because of fake water pipe story,,, then counting continues??? Do you see any poll watchers in the video??? I don’t,,,, I see people leaving, I see them, i.e. ‘the yellow shirts’, waiting for the people to leave, and then I see a ‘jump into action’ when the ‘coast was clear’ with no other people, especially poll watchers, present !

    I have some swamp land to sell you Bob!

  386. 386
    ET says:

    What sort of “fact checker” doesn’t get off of their butt and do some real investigating? No, I will call the people who will be in trouble if true as if they aren’t going to lie to save face. Right…

  387. 387
    JVL says:

    Bob O’H: Here’s another report of the Georgia ballots. Let the hyper-scepticism begin!

    So, another tempest in a teacup. The observers left of their own accord when the workers whose jobs were done left. Too funny!

    Guess that’s another piece of ‘evidence’ that won’t be brought up in court.

  388. 388
    bornagain77 says:

    per 376 “Cue VL, JVL , mainstream media..etc… to deny that they see any evidence for voter fraud here,,, ‘nothing to see here’,,, ‘move along’,,, they will say,,,”

    Thanks for jumping in and exactly confirming my prediction for what you would do,,, you guys are a friggin JOKE!,,,

    VIDEO EVIDENCE: Secret Cases FULL of Ballots In Georgia!? | Louder With Crowder
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ9YGSMY2xg

    Again, no poll watchers were present,,, a violation of state law!

  389. 389
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: per 376 “Cue VL, JVL , mainstream media..etc… to deny that they see any evidence for voter fraud here,,, ‘nothing to see here’,,, ‘move along’,,, they will say,,,”

    Well, it will be easy enough to check with the workers. And some of the people who spoke to the news agency are identified:

    Gabriel Sterling, a Republican and Georgia’s voting system implementation manager, told Lead Stories during a phone call on December 3, 2020 that what can be seen on the video is normal procedure and nothing looks “bizarre or odd.”

    Election workers known as “cutters” because their job was to open absentee ballot envelopes and verify ballots for eventual scanning and counting were dismissed for the night sometime after 10 p.m. on November 3, 2020, because their work for the evening had been completed, he explained. Those workers who remained were responsible for conducting the scanning portion of the process, since ballots could not be left without being scanned overnight. He said: “If you look at the video tape, the work you see is the work you would expect, which is you take the sealed suitcase looking things in, you place the ballots on the scanner in manageable batches and you scan them.”

    Ooo, a Republican.

    Frances Watson, chief investigator for the Georgia secretary of state, told Lead Stories during a phone call on December 3, 2020, that the ballots were in standard containers, and the work during the time in question had nothing to do with pulling ballots from under a table. She said:

    There wasn’t a bin that had ballots in it under that table. It was an empty bin and the ballots from it were actually out on the table when the media were still there, and then it was placed back into the box when the media were still there and placed next to the table.

    There was never an announcement made to the media and other observers about the counting being over for the night and them needing to leave, according to Watson, who was provided information by the media liaison, who was present. She said they just followed the “cutters” as they left.

    She said: “Nobody told them to stay. Nobody told them to leave. Nobody gave them any advice on what they should do. And It was still open for them or the public to come back in to view at whatever time they wanted to, as long as they were still working.”

    In addition, she explained that the only ballots that were scanned after the media and other observers had left were those that had already been opened in front of these observers.

    Contrary to the claim, the ballots were not in suitcases, she said. The black boxes and bins seen in the video are the standard container used for the ballot counting process.

    Face it, someone misinterpreted what they saw on the video tape, didn’t bother to ask workers who were there at the time what was going on, slammed it into the conspiracy theory and are going to look very foolish. Again.

    This is why cases are being dismissed left and right. The ‘evidence’ is rubbish.

    Bornagain77: Again, no poll watchers were present,,, a violation of state law!

    Apparently not. Maybe you should check things before you repeat them.

    Section § 21-2-408 of the Code Of Georgia, which addresses poll watchers, explains that political bodies and parties are “entitled” to have official poll watchers. The secretary of state’s chief counsel told Lead Stories it was not a requirement that observers be present for counting to continue — only that it is their right to be there if they choose.

  390. 390
    bornagain77 says:

    JVL, per the code you cited ,,, “it is their (republican observers’s) right to be there if they choose.”

    Do I really have to explain this particular violation of law to you???

    Geesh, they did not ‘choose’ to leave by any stretch of imagination, but they were ‘told’ to leave by the same exact woman who is implicated in the video,,,

    “According to the witnesses, the Republican observers, there was a lady, she has blonde braids, who comes out to announce, “We are going to stop counting, Everyone go hame!’,,, and in fact, we see that,,,!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ9YGSMY2xg

    Thus they, the Republican observers, certainly did not ‘choose’ to leave but were told to go home, and therefore, by your own reference to the code, this is a direct violation of state law, recorded on video for crying out loud, and therefore all the votes counted during that time should, as far as the law itself is concerned, (per your own reference as to how the code is to be interpreted), be considered as fraudulently counted votes,,,,

    Given that Georgia is something like a 11,000 to 12,000 vote difference, this violation by itself, not counting the thousands of other instances of voter fraud found in Georgia, is enough to bring the race to, at least, a dead heat, if not enough to turn the election completely towards Trump!

  391. 391
    Viola Lee says:

    Thanks, Bob. Another piece of “evidence” that would amount to nothing in a court.

    I wonder where/if this will ever get into a court case, or if it’s just another piece of “fake news” that is being punted around the conspiro-sphere?

  392. 392
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: Geesh, they did not ‘choose’ to leave by any stretch of imagination, they were told to leave by the same exact woman who is implicated in the video,,,

    Not according to other witnesses. And you cannot hear what is said on the video. I don’t see anyone forcing out the witnesses. You’d think they would have stayed as is their right as long as they were workers there. Sounds like they screwed up: they heard some workers say: we’re going home, we’re done and misinterpreted it. They should also know that no one can force them to leave as long as work is still being done. If the doors weren’t locked (according to a witness) then they were not forced out. Do you see anyone being herded out? Do you see the doors being locked? Why then would the observers leave when there were still poll workers there especially if they were suspicious? They screwed up. That’s the simple answer.

    At the very least there are two versions of what happened that night. It will be easy enough to talk to as many people as possible to find out what actually was said. If the observers left of their own accord then no law was violated.

    The poll workers knew they were being video taped. They did nothing to hide or interfere with the video recording. Looks like people innocently getting on with what they were doing.

  393. 393

    At the very least there are two versions of what happened that night.

    Which ones swore out affidavits under penalty of perjury?

  394. 394
    Sandy says:

    Bornagain77
    VIDEO EVIDENCE: Secret Cases FULL of Ballots In Georgia!? | Louder With Crowder
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ9YGSMY2xg

    In Georgia at 12:18A.M. a vote batch of 23,000 (98% Biden). Could be sent exactly by 4 people who “counted” alone? 🙂
    https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1330430051251318787
    https://youtu.be/mp0u4dw7GH4

    JVL
    Bob O’H: Here’s another report of the Georgia ballots. Let the hyper-scepticism begin!

    So, another tempest in a teacup. The observers left of their own accord when the workers whose jobs were done left. Too funny!

    Guess that’s another piece of ‘evidence’ that won’t be brought up in court

    Your comments are the best kind of involuntary comedy. You do have a peculiar kind of intelligence that is very strange compartimentalized :it’s way above average in few areas and is 0 in other areas.

  395. 395
    bornagain77 says:

    JVL, 🙂 throwing your [SNIP] on the wall and seeing if it will stick might amuse you and your monkey brain, but I have better things to do,,,

    ‘Stop the count’ and then removing republican observers was a nationwide thing there Bonzo,,,,, GA just happened to jump the gun a little prematurely with the fake ‘water pipe incident’,,,

    On approximately 2:30 AM EST, TV broadcasts reported that PA, WI, AZ, NV and GA have decided to cease vote counting operations and will continue the following day. The unanimous decision to intentionally stop counting by all 5 battleground states is highly unusual, possibly
    unprecedented and demonstrates prior coordination by election officials in battleground state. There would be no legitimate reason battleground states need to pre-coordinate election activities and stop on-going adjudication processes. However, is equally puzzling that the vote counting did not stop, as reported. In fact, it continued behind closed doors in early hours of November 4, 2020. This activity is highly unusually and demonstrates collusion to achieve desired results without being monitored by watchers.
    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mied.350905/gov.uscourts.mied.350905.1.19.pdf

    Besides being highly unusual, (and more importantly, without republican observers per JVL’s own reference), it is highly illegal!

  396. 396
    JVL says:

    William J Murray: Which ones swore out affidavits under penalty of perjury?

    On both sides? Can you name any of the accusers who have given affidavits? Yes or no?

    On the other hand, public officials (who have not been asked to swear out affidavits) have responded to at least one news agency asking for comments. They did not ask to be anonymous, they spoke in their official capacities.

    I’m sure that IF it becomes a matter of law they will make an appearance in court and swear to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, especially since they’ve already committed their version of the night into the public record.

    Some observers at a ballot counting station screw up and leave before the counting was finished because a bunch of workers went home, probably saying our work is done. The workers who stayed did not try and hide or conceal what they were doing from the video cameras which they knew were operating. Then someone finds this video (pretty late in the game by the way) and thinks it shows something it doesn’t and, of course, doesn’t bother to try and verify their interpretation. They just toss it onto the conspiracy pile as usual.

    Some of you guys didn’t even know the law in Georgia. You’re too busy hyperventilating over another piece of non-evidence.

    There never was any good evidence in the first place. Just the Trumpster making a claim. Since then everyone who wants to agree with him is just anomaly hunting and misinterpreting things. That’s the simplest explanation; not some conspiracy theory involving thousands and thousands of people, oodles of money and some kind of coordination that is probably far beyond anyone in government.

  397. 397
    bornagain77 says:

    None so blind as those who are unwilling to see, even when they have the video evidence provided right in front of them for them to see!

  398. 398
    ET says:

    There is, by far, more evidence for voter fraud than there is for evolutionism. That’s gotta hurt.

  399. 399
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, popped in for a moment. I note that my central argument pivots on publicly accessible evidence, some of which I again put on the table today, most of it quite longstanding. Namely, the moral duty challenge:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

    The further development is the Pelosi-Cotton exchange in which it is made clear that the destabilising element is intended to now be entrenched, completing a coup that destroys elections as a credible, peaceful alternative to the old fashioned way that lawless oligarchies had to be dealt with. That is literally the intended first resolution for the Representatives.

    That is outright causus belli.

    Literally.

    These folks either don’t understand the fire they are playing with, or they imagine they have overawing power.

    Either way, they are heading into disaster.

    KF

  400. 400
    bornagain77 says:

    200,000 ballots shipped across state lines. Sworn affidavit, very credible witness,,,

    Lou Dobbs interview – video
    https://www.facebook.com/153080620724/videos/1055447584921189

  401. 401
    Mac McTavish says:

    BA77

    Sorry KF for belaboring the issue, but I just note in passing that our left wing opponents, who have robotically repeated throughout this thread that they see no evidence of widespread voter fraud, have danced around.

    Why do you think that if someone does not believe that there was widespread voter fraud that they must be left wing? I do not belong to either party but I vote Republican more often than I vote Democrat. Exactly what have I ever said that makes you conclude that I am a left-winger? That I oppose Trump? Not all Republicans support Trump. That I don’t believe there is compelling evidence of widespread voter fraud? Not all Republicans believe there was fraud. That I support SSM? Well, I’m gay. As far as I know, homosexuality does not respect party lines.

  402. 402
    bornagain77 says:

    Mac, don’t waste your breath,,, you have lost all credibility with me,,,, you have not been fair and balanced by any reasonable measure of being fair and balanced,,, i.e. “Don’t spit in my face and tell me it’s raining.”

    A compilation of twenty alleged election ‘facts’ that don’t pass the smell test
    By Andrea Widburg – November 30, 2020
    Excerpt: On behalf of all Trump voters, I say to the Democrats who are trying to gaslight us: Don’t spit in my face and tell me it’s raining.
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/a_compilation_of_twenty_alleged_election_facts_that_dont_pass_the_smell_test.html

  403. 403
    bornagain77 says:

    Jenna Ellis on the SHOCKING evidence presented to the Georgia State Senate
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRs2urjnzMU

  404. 404
    kairosfocus says:

    BA77, language, Remember the broken window theory. KF

  405. 405
    Sandy says:

    Bornagain77
    Jenna Ellis on the SHOCKING evidence presented to the Georgia State Senate
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRs2urjnzMU

    Darwinists are here just for fun . They are not interested in evidences , keep this in mind and don’t take them too seriously just think they are 10 years children. 🙂

  406. 406
    bornagain77 says:

    Sandy,,,
    this message was sent just to me on FB, “same woman (in the video) was caught running the same stack of ballots through 3 times,,,”
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222024394292189&set=p.10222024394292189&type=3

  407. 407
    Mac McTavish says:

    BA77

    Sandy,,,
    this message was sent just to me on FB, “same woman (in the video) was caught running the same stack of ballots through 3 times,,,”

    You could run the same ballot through 100 times and it would still only count one vote. That is why they are barcoded.

    And every recount, every audit of paper ballots against the machines they were counted on, and every audit of the machine counts against the tabulated counts and reported counts failed to find any discrepancies.

  408. 408
    bornagain77 says:

    Sandy of note,,,

    Hey,
    @GabrielSterling
    , you don’t have State of GA email??? How does your company, Sterling Innovative, make money? Did you or your company receive any of this $10+M grant? Implementation Manager??? What do you do except go on TV to deny the clear voting fraud in GA?
    https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1331109549424717824

    Sterling’s title is, get this,,,

    Gabriel Sterling
    “Voting System Implementation Manager at Georgia “
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabrielsterling

    Oh goody, “Voting System Implementation Manager at Georgia “,,, That reveals a lot!

    thus it would be safe to say that Gabriel Sterling played a very large role in Georgia’s recent 110 million dollar investment in Dominion machines,,, and thus that explains his current ‘denier in chief’ role as to election irregularities,,,

    Sterling has been at this quite a while,,,

    Georgia’s Electronic Voting System Vulnerable to Attacks
    With doubts and mistrust about election day results mounting, attention has turned to the state’s new electronic voting system, which is considered vulnerable to cyberattacks that could undermine public confidence.
    ALAN JUDD, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION | OCTOBER 26, 2020
    The new voting system “presents serious security vulnerability and operational issues” caused by “fundamental deficits and exposure,” U.S. District Judge Amy Totenberg wrote in a recent order, in which she criticized state officials for not taking the problems more seriously.
    “These risks,” Totenberg wrote, “are neither hypothetical nor remote under the current circumstances.”
    State officials zealously defend the new system, however, suggesting hackers could mount an attack only in person, not through online connections. In court papers, lawyers for the state said the system has been subjected to extensive testing and has a variety of security features built in. The secretary of state, who oversees Georgia elections, hired a consultant to assess the system’s security, but officials refuse to release the consultant’s report, saying it contains sensitive information.,,,
    ,,,— Gabriel Sterling, the voting system implementation manager for the secretary of state’s office, said in an interview this summer. “We’re trying to make it easier for people,,,”
    https://www.governing.com/security/Georgias-Electronic-Voting-System-Vulnerable-to-Attacks.html

    He literally is the fox guarding the hen house for Dominion in Georgia!

    i.e. The very last person you should trust!

  409. 409
    bornagain77 says:

    If you would have watched the hearing yesterday, you would know that the recounts conducted thus far are worthless,,, that is precisely why the Governor is asking for a signature audit!

    As to machine counts not going over,,,, that overcount is not caught until ‘down the line’,,, and she would not have necessarily known that at the time she was re-running stacks,,, I would hold that, if true, (I can’t tell from the small picture sent to me) is that it shows ‘malicious’ intent’ on her part if she did indeed run stacks multiple times,,,

  410. 410
    Sandy says:

    Yes is obvious:
    Purple Shirt lady scanning same ballots multiple times. No witness for seal.
    https://streamable.com/78mptq

  411. 411
    bornagain77 says:

    Sandy,,, Man that is gold! ,,,, you are the man for finding that nugget!

    Purple Shirt lady scanning same ballots multiple times. No witness for seal.
    https://streamable.com/78mptq

    ,,, This is far more damning than the original video was! It is as if you are looking at the actual murder itself, instead of just looking at the murderer loading a gun prior to a murder,,,

  412. 412
    Seversky says:

    A blurry, jerky low-res video. Good luck proving anything with that in court.

  413. 413
    bornagain77 says:

    Seversky, fancies himself a fair arbiter of evidence???

    LOL 🙂 You are kidding right??

    OK Seversky, I’ll play along,,,

    How many laws do you personally think were broken in the video Seversky???

  414. 414
  415. 415
    Seversky says:

    On the basis of that video? None

  416. 416
    bornagain77 says:

    LOL,,, thanks for playing Seversky,,,

  417. 417
    JVL says:

    Bornagain77: this message was sent just to me on FB, “same woman (in the video) was caught running the same stack of ballots through 3 times,,,”

    Where exactly on the video does that take place? Please be specific.

    I would hold that, if true, (I can’t tell from the small picture sent to me) is that it shows ‘malicious’ intent’ on her part if she did indeed run stacks multiple times,,,

    So, do you have clear evidence this happened? Yes or no?

    ,, This is far more damning than the original video was! It is as if you are looking at the actual murder itself, instead of just looking at the murderer loading a gun prior to a murder,,,

    Uh huh. We’ll see what a court makes of it.

    How many laws do you personally think were broken in the video Seversky???

    Based on what you can actually see in the video: none. You cannot possibly infer illegalities based on the video as presented. AS INTERPRETED is another matter.

  418. 418
    Mac McTavish says:

    JVL

    Based on what you can actually see in the video: none. You cannot possibly infer illegalities based on the video as presented. AS INTERPRETED is another matter.

    I’m sure that wearing that sweater must be a crime.

  419. 419
    JVL says:

    Mac McTavish: I’m sure that wearing that sweater must be a crime.

    Well, yes, but that’s covered under a completely different cultural law.

  420. 420
    Seversky says:

    This is basically the same strategy Trump has always used. Do whatever he can to keep front and center of the news cycle day after day. Doesn’t really matter how many cases his “elite strike force” legal team loses as long as they keep his name out there. It doesn’t really matter that all this is really sour grapes from a bunch of sore losers.

  421. 421
    Viola Lee says:

    I believe the county involved in this latest viral video issue have explained the situation, and voted to recertify the election results.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-recertifies-election-results-fulton-county-video

  422. 422
    Sandy says:

    Viola LeeDecember 4, 2020 at 2:54 pm
    I believe the county involved in this latest viral video issue have explained the situation, and voted to recertify the election results.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-recertifies-election-results-fulton-county-video

    🙂 Oh no , since when criminals are asked if they broke the law and if they say they didn’t then that’s it case is solved.

  423. 423
    Viola Lee says:

    Has anyone filed a court case about the situation?

  424. 424
    Mac McTavish says:

    VL

    Has anyone filed a court case about the situation?

    You are joking, right?

  425. 425
    jerry says:

    Correct if I am wrong. But Trump is officially down 10k in both Georgia and Arizona and 20k in Wisconsin. If for some reason these three states were flipped, it would be 269 – 269 and it goes to House?

    I have paid marginal attention to the specifics but someone said this.

  426. 426
    bornagain77 says:

    Dominion’s Parent Company Arranges $400 Million Placement 1 Month Before Election: SEC Filing – December 4, 2020
    A filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) shows that UBS Securities LLC arranged a private placement of $400 million with Staple Street Capital III, L.P. on October 8, 2020.
    Staple Street Capital, a private equity firm located in New York, purchased Dominion Voting systems on July 17, 2018, for an undisclosed amount.
    The securities firm that arranged the transaction, UBS Securities LLC, is a division of UBS Americas Inc, which ultimately falls under UBS Group AG, a company listed on the SIX Swiss stock exchange.
    Three of four board members of UBS Securities LLC are Chinese according to Bloomberg, at least one of whom appears to reside in Hong Kong.
    In 2014 UBS Securities LLC arranged a $200 million private placement for Staple Street Capital II, L.P. a previous company name. Staple Street Capital III, L.P. was founded in 2020. The previous company operated as a private equity fund and used the funds to invest in medium-sized businesses.
    Dominion is facing multiple allegations for violating security standards and election manipulation, and it has denied those allegations.
    “The company has no ownership ties whatsoever to USB [sic], or the governments of China, Cuba, or Venezuela,” the latest statement updated on Dec. 3 on Dominion website states.
    Staple Street Capital made significant changes to its website recently. Information about Team, Executive Board, and Portfolio have all been deleted.
    Neither Dominion nor Staple Street Capital has responded to a request for comment from The Epoch Times.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/dominions-parent-company-arranges-400-million-placement-1-month-before-election-sec-filing_3604287.html

  427. 427
    mike1962 says:

    Seversky: This is basically the same strategy Trump has always used. Do whatever he can to keep front and center of the news cycle day after day.

    What strategy is the leftist propagandist/activist MSM using? See if you can figure it out. Then report back.

  428. 428
    bornagain77 says:

    It just got much worse for poor ole Miss Ruby,,,

    Ruby Freeman, while face timing, inadvertently reveals fake unaddressed mail in ballots that she is processing
    https://populist.press/georgia-suitcase-scammer-shows-us-all-the-ballots-something-is-missing/

    Close up of mail-in ballot bin with no return address
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoZi6uvW8Ac_gWo?format=jpg&name=medium

    You can see the pre-printed address through the handle grip of the US postal bin
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoZqbLlXIAId_fM?format=jpg&name=large

    And then this,,

    Envelope
    Take the privacy sleeve [folded white sheet of paper] with your ballot inside of it and place it into the envelope that has a yellow bar on it and has been preaddressed to your county board of registrar. >>>Write your return address at the top left-hand side of the envelope inside the yellow bar<<<.
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222025209152560&set=p.10222025209152560&type=3

    In other words, she knew exactly what type of ballots she was bringing in when she pushed the ‘hidden ballots’ in in the morning before anyone else had arrived, because she had probably processed most of the four containers of fraudulent ballots all by her lonesome self,,,

    VIDEO EVIDENCE: Secret Cases FULL of Ballots In Georgia!? | Louder With Crowder
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ9YGSMY2xg

    And again,,

    Purple Shirt lady scanning same ballots multiple times. No witness for seal.
    https://streamable.com/78mptq

    And somebody even matched the ‘vote dump’ timeline to the timeline of the Georgia video,,,

    Timeline comparison
    https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10159604988917908&set=pcb.10159604989102908

    Something tells me that poor ole Miss Ruby is about to ‘disappear’ off the face of the earth and will ‘unfortunately’ be unavailable for questioning before the Senate,,,

  429. 429
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, you obviously didn’t heed the tech person, who observed a result of multiple scans up to 500 vote count. Her comment, SOP was on jam, do a flush of count, restack with jammed ballot on top, run the 50 again. The expected total count on machines was not expected to top 50. KF

    PS, of course the REAL problem is uncontrolled mail in ballots and linked harvesting, which Ms Pelosi hopes to entrench as part of HR1. FYI that is causus belli, literally; destroying integrity of the peaceful ballot box leaves only the old fashioned way to remove entrenched lawless oligarchy. It is frankly insane to be playing with that fire; but that is just where the US is.

  430. 430
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF, yet you have failed to demonstrate that the checks and balances in place to ensure a secure election did not work. All audits and recounts have confirmed the original numbers.

  431. 431
  432. 432
    orthomyxo says:

    I checked out the of post, but couldn’t find any evidence for fractional vote counts in 2020 (just that some software used in some counties, at least in the past is capable of doing it). So, if there any evidence of out happening (other than the counts derived from the NYT data?)

  433. 433
    bornagain77 says:

    Hmmm,

    BREAKING: 76 of 141 Republican Representatives in PA Send Letter to Congress Asking Them to Reject State’s 20 Electors
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/breaking-76-141-republican-representatives-pa-send-letter-congress-asking-reject-states-20-electors/

  434. 434
    AndyClue says:

    HUGE! Video Footage From Georgia Shows Suitcases Filled with Ballots Pulled From Under Table AFTER Supervisor Told GOP Poll Workers to Leave Tabulation Center
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/video-footage-georgia-shows-suitcases-filled-ballots-pulled-table-supervisor-told-gop-poll-workers-leave-tabulation-center/

    Politifact provides a much different take on the story: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/facebook-posts/no-georgia-election-workers-didnt-kick-out-observe/

  435. 435
    AndyClue says:

    @JVL:

    AndyClue: I’ve never claimed, that hundreds were murdered.

    Comment 88 by AndyClue, this thread:

    The Syrians Merkel imported have been raping and in part murdering hundreds of young German women.

    English is not my first language. But doesn’t “in part” indicate that I wasn’t talking about hundreds of murders?

  436. 436
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, there are many ways to make paper and electronic counts match, once there is lack of effective scrutineering, which is manifest. We already have adequate proof that a destabilising paper element was injected and is in process now of being entrenched. Such destroys the integrity of elections and is causus belli under the “long train of abuses and usurpations” clause in the 2nd para US DoI. Accepting tainted ballots and breaking down effective scrutineer control on chain of custody are enough already. Further to all of this, there is a considerable body of eyewitness evidence that something was very wrong with the conduct of the election, which it is clear you are in denial about. The folly involved in destabilising the election system and pretending that such enhances democracy is manifest. KF

  437. 437
    kairosfocus says:

    Ortho, once fractional votes based on other than the direct count of the actual votes with due scrutineer control on chain of custody to that point are being reported to the public, we know that a corrupt principle has been injected. Where, the underlying attitude to the identity of what a vote is and represents is sufficient warning. The further factor of demonstrated ability to manipulate votes and log files are enough to utterly indict the software. When we see that it is not only Trump and his circle who have been pointing out the dubious roots of the core, DNA software and systems, on public record, that underscores the points. The software and machines should be repudiated as tainted and sent to the crushers. Paper ballots, with transparent optical scans kept on indelible digital record for cross-check, with scrutiny on ballots then counting as INTEGERS and reporting on the curated value, is where this needs to go. Destabilising elements and defects should be removed: proper ID and demonstration of right to vote, no uncontrolled mail-in ballots and harvesting by 3rd parties, proper custody of ballots, scrutiny on voting and counting etc. Count at the precinct, transfer totals signed off by responsible officers and scrutineers, transmit to scrutineer controlled totalising centres as scanned optical documents, sum on standard software such as an open source spreadsheet, e.g. that for Open Office, curating the values as integers. There is no need for minute by minute reporting streams, send from precincts when they sign off. Follow up with paper documents, with an automatic cross check. KF

  438. 438
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N, observe how the objectors have studiously avoided the victory laps being run by radicals. KF

  439. 439
    JVL says:

    AndyClue: English is not my first language. But doesn’t “in part” indicate that I wasn’t talking about hundreds of murders?

    What do you think “in part murdering hundreds of young German women” means then? What about “in part murdering tens of young German women”? If you meant they murdered a few why not just say that?

  440. 440
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: Ortho, once fractional votes based on other than the direct count of the actual votes with due scrutineer control on chain of custody to that point are being reported to the public, we know that a corrupt principle has been injected.

    But that’s not what happened is it? Fractional votes were NOT REPORTED to the public. Some guy looked at a direct feed NOT MEANT for public distribution, initially got the company whose data stream it was wrong, then interpreted some numbers to mean fractional votes were being reported and recorded. Orthomyxo has already explained this but you keep banging on the same refrain as if no one had heard you. We have, we have responded, but not in the way you wished.

  441. 441
    JVL says:

    AndyClue: Politifact provides a much different take on the story: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/facebook-posts/no-georgia-election-workers-didnt-kick-out-observe/

    From that article:

    That interpretation is wrong, however. The footage doesn’t show any wrongdoing, said Gabriel Sterling, a Republican and Georgia’s voting system implementation manager: “”When the workers began packing up to go, there were two groups, the cutters and the counters. Cutters opened, stacked and prepared ballots for scanning. Scanners … well, they scanned. All of them heard a supervisor say we are finishing for the night, because the cutters had completed their work. The scanners heard they were ‘done’ and started packing up to leave. During that time the elections director called the absentee supervisor at State Farm to tell him the scanners needed to continue their work. So people had already started to leave or had left … cutters, media, monitors. But the video shows no new boxes of ballots brought out from a table, they were all there when the media and monitors were in the room. The video shows them getting back to work scanning. When the (state elections board) monitor arrives they continue to do the same thing they had been doing all night. When the (secretary of state) investigator got there they continued doing the same thing.”

    And remember, all this happened with video cameras running, the workers KNEW there were video cameras working and they did absolutely nothing to hide what they were doing. No cameras failed, no videos were lost. The observers screwed up, they heard some people were done and left while there were still people there working even though they were NOT forced out. Why did they leave when there were still people there especially if they (erroneously as some of the commenters here) thought that by Georgia law they had to be present? They screwed up, plain and simple. That’s the simplest explanation.

    Why didn’t someone from the Trumpsters ask the pertinent individuals what was going on on the tape before trumping it to the world as another example of fraud thereby making themselves look more and more foolish?

  442. 442

    https://themarshallreport.wordpress.com/2020/11/29/blue-sky-report-lt-gen-mcinerney-calls-for-insurrection-act-with-habeas-corpus/

    Interesting breakdown of what would constitute the legal invocation of the Insurrection Act. Looks like a slam dunk on 2-3 counts. Trump may be letting the bad actors hang themselves before implementation. The bad actors may be attempting to force him to use it in order to characterize him as a despot to justify getting other bad states around the world to intervene. Could be both at the same time.

    If the SCOTUS does its job and throws out the results of the key states on constitutional grounds (if state courts and officials won’t do it,) they might do so with prejudice and award the election in those states to Republican candidates. It wouldn’t matter what the actual vote tally was even if they could figure it out. IOW, if your team cheats, the other team wins by default.

    That would give Trump the win without the need to invoke the insurrection Act, but IMO it needs to be invoked at some point regardless. The enemy needs to be cleared out and with lower courts, state houses, the media and a lot of the Federal Government and agencies involved, the only Constitutional remedy is military court. Several moves by Trump over the past four years have cleared and secured this path.

    It appears that a lot of what Trump has been saying for the past four years has been persuasion to get the public as ready as possible for this. Also, a lot of what the Dems have been saying and doing for four years has been to persuade as many as possible into their narrative in advance of the invocation of the Act. IOW, both sides, it seems to me, have been preparing for the eventual invocation of the Insurrection Act by Trump, like they both knew at some point it was going to happen.

    And really, one way or the other, Trump really has no option other than to use it at some point. It’s the only way you can actually drain the swamp, stop the fake news, and clear out all the bad actors who have penetrated every aspect of the significant institutions in America. It would be, at a minimum, hundreds of people arrested, but more likely thousands.

  443. 443

    Powell files lawsuit in Arizona:
    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.1255923/gov.uscourts.azd.1255923.1.0.pdf

    145. For these reasons, Plaintiffs ask this Court to enter a judgment in their favor
    and provide the following emergency relief:

    1. An order directing Governor Ducey and Secretary Hobbs to de-certify the election results;

    2. An order enjoining Governor Ducey from transmitting the currently certified election results the Electoral College;

    3. An immediate emergency order to seize and impound all servers, software, voting machines, tabulators, printers, portable media, logs, Case 2:20-cv-02321-DJH Document 1 Filed 12/02/20 Page 51 of 53

    4. An order that no votes received or tabulated by machines that were not certified as required by federal and state law be counted;

    5. A declaratory judgment declaring that Arizona’s failed system of signature verification violates the Electors and Elections Clause by working a de facto abolition of the signature verification requirement;

    6. A declaratory judgment declaring that currently certified election results violate the Due Process Clause, U.S. CONST. Amend. XIV;

    7. A declaratory judgment declaring that mail-in and absentee ballot fraud must be remedied with a Full Manual Recount or statistically valid sampling that properly verifies the signatures on absentee ballot envelopes and that invalidates the certified results if the recount or sampling analysis shows a sufficient number of ineligible absentee ballots were counted;

    8. A declaratory judgment declaring absentee ballot fraud occurred in violation of Constitutional rights, Election laws and under state law;

    9. A permanent injunction prohibiting the Governor and Secretary of State from transmitting the currently certified results to the Electoral College based on the overwhelming evidence of election tampering;

    10. Immediate production of 48 hours of security camera recording of all rooms used in Maricopa County for November 3, 2020 and November 4, 2020.

  444. 444
    JVL says:

    William J Murray: That would give Trump the win without the need to invoke the insurrection Act, but IMO it needs to be invoked at some point regardless. The enemy needs to be cleared out and with lower courts, state houses, the media and a lot of the Federal Government and agencies involved, the only Constitutional remedy is military court.

    I’d like to think that everyone else on this thread would absolutely decry this interpretation and attitude towards the voting non-crisis. But it scares me to think that some of you will agree with it.

    The ‘enemy’ are also citizens of the United States which means they have Constitutionally protected rights which you are proposing to abrogate. You don’t respect the Constitution at all, you’ll happily bypass it because you view those who disagree with you as enemies. You’re in support of a coup because you don’t want to go through the system of government you claim to be defending.

    I find your view (all in your own head by the way as you’ve been at pains to tell us) frightening and appalling. I believe that cooler heads will prevail, that even if Trump did declare an insurrection that few, if any, of the military units would support him. He might get his David Koresh moment barricaded in the White House until they run out of food or drink the purple koolade but all that would do is to wake up the US populace to the kind of fear-mongering, conspiracy-driven thinking they put into the White House. Hopefully that will never happen again.

  445. 445
    JVL says:

    Powell files lawsuit in Arizona:
    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.1255923/gov.uscourts.azd.1255923.1.0.pdf

    From the lawsuit:

    Smartmatic and Dominion were founded by foreign oligarchs and dictators to ensure computerized ballot-stuffing and vote manipulation to whatever level was needed to make certain Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez never lost another election. See Ex. 1, Redacted Declaration of Dominion Venezuela Whistleblower (“Dominion Whistleblower Report”). Notably, Chavez “won” every election thereafter.

    The craziness grows.

    In the event that the election is annulled and set aside, there would certainly not be time to hold a new election, especially given the issues identified herein. However, it would be eminently proper for the question of the choice of electors to then revert to the legislature, for “[t]here is no doubt of the right of the legislature to resume the power [to appoint electors] at any time, for it can neither be taken away nor abdicated.”

    That’s great, just throw away all the votes thereby telling millions of people their votes did not count. Insane.

  446. 446
    BobRyan says:

    JVL

    Democrats stole the 1960 election. Nixon did beat Kennedy. Democrats have a longer history of vote fraud, particularly against black voters. Research the details of what brought an end to Reconstruction. Democrats tried to steal a presidential election and had plans to take the treasury by force.

    Democrats have a long history of not caring about voters. Democrats turn a blind eye to election fraud in every election cycle, since they can’t win in most of the country any other way.

  447. 447
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: Democrats have a long history of not caring about voters. Democrats turn a blind eye to election fraud in every election cycle, since they can’t win in most of the country any other way.

    Uh huh. Counting the 1960 US Presidential election up through the 2020 election there have been 8 Democratic victories and 8 Republican victories 2 of which were considered landslides. So when the Democrats win it’s because they steal the election but when, say, Nixon beat McGovern so badly (McGovern only ‘won’ one state) that’s perfectly legal? And if Nixon really did beat Kennedy then why didn’t he object to the election results at the time?

    From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_United_States_presidential_election

    Nixon’s campaign staff urged him to pursue recounts and challenge the validity of Kennedy’s victory in several states, especially Illinois, Missouri, and New Jersey, where large majorities in Catholic precincts handed Kennedy the election.[62] But Nixon gave a speech three days after the election stating that he would not contest the election.[62] The Republican National Chairman, Senator Thruston Ballard Morton of Kentucky, visited Key Biscayne, Florida, where Nixon had taken his family for a vacation, and pushed for a recount.[62] Morton challenged the results in 11 states,[63] keeping challenges in the courts into mid-1961, but the only result of these challenges was the loss of Hawaii to Kennedy on a recount.

    It was a razor-thin victory to be sure. Losing Hawaii on a recount, too funny.

    Allegations of voter fraud were made in Texas. For example, Fannin County had only 4,895 registered voters, yet 6,138 votes were cast in that county, three-quarters for Kennedy.[62] In an Angelina County precinct, Kennedy received 187 votes to Nixon’s 24, though there were only 86 registered voters in the precinct.[62] When Republicans demanded a statewide recount, they learned that the state Board of Elections, whose members were all Democrats, had already “certified” Kennedy as the winner.[62] This analysis, though, is flawed, since registered voter figures only counted people who had paid the poll tax, and certain groups were exempt from that tax.[72]

    Again, why don’t those claiming fraud do their homework first?

    Schlesinger and others have pointed out that, even if Nixon had carried Illinois, the state would not have given him victory, as Kennedy would still have won 276 electoral votes to Nixon’s 246. More to the point, Illinois was the site of the most extensive challenge process, which fell short despite repeated efforts spearheaded by Cook County state’s attorney, Benjamin Adamowski, a Republican, who also lost his reelection bid. Despite demonstrating net errors favoring both Nixon and Adamowski (some precincts—40% in Nixon’s case—showed errors favoring them, a factor suggesting error, rather than fraud), the totals found fell short of reversing the results for either candidate. While a Daley-connected circuit judge, Thomas Kluczynski (later appointed a federal judge by Kennedy, at Daley’s recommendation), threw out a federal lawsuit “filed to contend” the voting totals,[62] the Republican-dominated State Board of Elections unanimously rejected the challenge to the results. Furthermore, there were signs of possible irregularities in downstate areas controlled by Republicans, which Democrats never seriously pressed, since the Republican challenges went nowhere.[73] More than a month after the election, the Republican National Committee abandoned its Illinois voter fraud claims.[63]

    An academic study in 1985[74] later analyzed the ballots of two disputed precincts in Chicago which were subject to a recount. It found that while there was a pattern of miscounting votes to the advantage of Democratic candidates, Richard Nixon suffered less from this than Republicans in other races, and furthermore the extrapolated error would only have reduced his Illinois margin from 8,858 votes (the final official total) to just under 8,000. It concluded there was insufficient evidence that he had been cheated out of winning Illinois.

    Nixon suffered LESS.

    A special prosecutor assigned to the case brought charges against 650 people, which did not result in convictions.[62] Three Chicago election workers were convicted of voter fraud in 1962 and served short terms in jail.[62] Mazo, the Herald-Tribune reporter, later said that he “found names of the dead who had voted in Chicago, along with 56 people from one house.”[62] He found cases of Republican voter fraud in southern Illinois, but said that the totals “did not match the Chicago fraud he found.”[62] After Mazo had published four parts of an intended 12-part voter fraud series documenting his findings, which was re-published nationally, he said, “Nixon requested his publisher stop the rest of the series so as to prevent a constitutional crisis.”[62]

    Nixon had his faults but he supported the system. AND, later, was able to clearly win two elections one by a massive landslide.

  448. 448
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL,

    kindly observe that the media are proxies of the public at large. What was reported, as has been cited, simply are not votes as votes are inherently integers. Period.

    That the media may go on to round these rational number values with non-zero fractional parts — a red flag in itself — to whole numbers compounds the problem, through enabling behaviour. The true news story lead at that point was, Dominion software reports an impossibility, fractional part votes.

    Where, all Ortho managed to explain, is the immediate means by which something was substituted for actual counted and properly custodied votes then passed off as votes to the public.

    Recall, the sum or difference of integers is per closure of the set, an integer. Once we see what is not an integer, per core defining characteristic of a vote as an act of declared choice towards a candidate that is countable, then what is put out cannot be a vote total, even if its magnitude is close to or the same as that of the correct integer. Mangoes are not guavas, even if the count is the same. O better yet, two dozen carambolas is not two dozen cups of water poured out. There is a difference of nature involved.

    If this helps, AmHD 1a. A formal expression of preference for a candidate for office or for a proposed resolution of an issue, is their first definition.

    In short, the appearance of fractions red flags a chain of properly scrutinised custody issue and it pointed to what has been further shown in the U/D to OP, the ability of relevant root, DNA software to do all sorts of manipulations to what is reported as vote totals.

    The mathematical pivot of those operations is that the votes were turned into rational numbers [what standard four-rules arithmetic operations and derivatives work with in calculations], being typed as double precision variables, then were acted on algorithmically, as Benny Smith demonstrated.

    It is significant to note your unresponsiveness to that demonstration.

    All of this is yet another tip of an iceberg.

    KF

  449. 449
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, there were Texas issues. The more material comparisons are 1876, 1824 and 1800. KF

    PS: I repeat, the primary expression of the will of “We, the People” is the US Constitution. It defines the backstops in case of a failed election and Ms Powell’s suit is in accord with such. A tainted election is NOT, repeat NOT, the will of the people. It is a counterfeit foisted by the ruthless, a fraud. In this context, I again mention the moral duty challenge and how the destabilising industrial scale fraud-conducive element is now set by Ms Pelosi for HR1. That demonstrates intent and institutionalised push.

  450. 450
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: What the Marxists did the last time they were in charge, in retaliation to the Hungarian uprising of 1956:

    I was born behind the iron curtain in the late sixties, and in Hungary – in my first job I worked with people who were missing finger-nails. The communists tortured people by driving screws under their nails, finger by finger. Those who were missing only one nail broke early and sang like a canary, and those who were missing more than two or three killed themselves before they had a chance to heal . . . . All this happened around 1956, the revolt against the Soviets. People who broke before or after one nail somehow managed to go on, but those who hold out for long torture and broke – could not go on, and they killed themselves for the shame.

    A warning.

    KF

  451. 451
    Bob O'H says:

    WJM @ 442 –

    If the SCOTUS does its job and throws out the results of the key states on constitutional grounds (if state courts and officials won’t do it,) they might do so with prejudice and award the election in those states to Republican candidates.

    They won’t. In part because the safe harbour date for choosing electors is Tuesday, and the electors get to, well, elect, on the 14th, in just over a week’s time. So there isn’t time to go through the lower courts before the whole thing becomes moot.

  452. 452
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, steady as she goes at this point in a storm, on a line of drift to the sandbars of Syrtis. KF

  453. 453
    Bob O'H says:

    Powell files lawsuit in Arizona:
    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.1255923/gov.uscourts.azd.1255923.1.0.pdf

    We want to hear more from Bruce!

  454. 454
    bornagain77 says:

    AC and JVL cited a reference from Politifact::,, “AC: Politifact provides a much different take on the story.”,,,, And Politifact bases its article on an article from ‘Lead Stories’,

    “Reporters for Lead Stories spoke with Sterling about the surveillance video. They also talked to Frances Watson, the Georgia secretary of state’s chief investigator, and an unidentified state election board monitor who was present in the room late on election night.”
    https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/facebook-posts/no-georgia-election-workers-didnt-kick-out-observe/

    And, (just like the ‘just so stories’ that are constantly put forth by Darwinists to make flimsy excuses for the empirical failures of their theory), the article from Lead Stories just does not hold water,,, as the following article states “the counter-narrative was ludicrous”,,,

    Democrats’ defense of Georgia election fraud video doesn’t hold water
    By Andrea Widburg – December 5, 2020
    Excerpt: Immediately after the story broke about the video showing workers at the State Farm Arena in Atlanta counting ballots after poll observers had apparently been asked to leave, a purported news site sprang into action to “fact check” the report. While the “fact check” gave room to Democrat operatives to cover their derrieres, the counter-narrative was ludicrous. Additionally, new evidence about vote spikes and two of the vote counters behaving suspiciously gave even more credence to Republicans’ take on the surveillance video.
    The video that galvanized so many people showed a large room in which poll observers were completely cordoned off from any meaningful observation. Shortly before 10:00 p.m., one of the poll workers – a black woman with eye-catching long, blond braids, approached the observers and, not long after that, with apparent reluctance, the observers filed away, vacating the room a little before 11 p.m.
    At 11:00, with the room ostensibly shut down and the observers gone, the remaining poll workers suddenly sprang into action, dragging rolling suitcases out from under a table. They took ballots out of those suitcases and spent the next two hours scanning them, at a rate of about 3,000 ballots per hour per scanner.
    If you go here, you can see several sharpened photographs showing what was going on.
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/12/does_a_surveillance_video_prove_georgia_election_fraud.html
    By Friday, a site called Lead Stories had its fact-check ready, denying the allegations. These are its contentions:
    1. Nobody told the observers to leave; they just voluntarily traipsed after workers and could have returned whenever they wanted.
    2. What the Republicans called “suitcases” were in fact empty, “regular ballot containers” that were placed under the table to save floor space.
    3. The ballots inside had already been removed from their envelopes and process while observers were present.
    The only one of those points that holds water is the contention that the ballots were in “ballot containers,” not suitcases. Everything else is factually or logically wrong.
    First, the poll watchers who left stated that the workers told them to leave and, indeed, you can see the woman with blond braids talking to them. It makes sense that the observers wouldn’t have left without being told that everything was shutting down. Trump supporters were deeply suspicious of events and would never have walked away from watching.
    Second, even assuming people had watched the ballots getting removed from their envelopes that’s not a reason for them to be disinterested in watching the votes get counted. For example, they might have witnessed the woman in the purple shirt repeatedly running the same batch of ballots through the tabulator.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/unbelievable-mother-along-daughter-handled-counted-ballots-alone-hours-georgia-ruby-freeman-caught-running-batch-ballots-tabulator-three-times/
    Third, the shutdown theater makes no sense. If the counting was proceeding as before, why in the world engage in that shutdown theater, which effectively drove the poll watchers out, only to spring into frantic, completely unsupervised action for the next two hours.
    (Fourth), even as those poll workers were busily scanning in ballots without oversight, Biden received a “mathematically impossible” spike in vote counts:
    —- (Timeline comparison of ‘vote dump’ with Georgia video,,,)
    https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10159604988917908&set=pcb.10159604989102908
    ,,, It isn’t surprising that the so-called “fact check” was wrong. Lead Stories is a partisan Democrat site “staffed almost entirely by Democratic donors, half of whom had worked for CNN in the past.” It’s also one of Facebook’s alleged “nonpartisan fact checkers” – and they, as many have noted, function on a completely partisan basis.
    There’s another video of two of the women from the secret vote count – the gal in the purple shirt and the one with the blond braids – and it appears that Purple Shirt is passing something covertly to Blond Braids. Many people have speculated that what’s being passed is a USB:
    — Video evidence of a USB handoff caught on camera!
    https://twitter.com/X14Eagle/status/1334910419400413184
    The facts remain clear: Poll observers testified they were deliberately cleared out, at which point workers, including two who had behaved suspiciously earlier, scanned ballots like crazy, with that scanning coinciding with an impossibly huge spike in counts that favored Joe Biden. No wonder Governor Kemp suddenly called for a signature audit. Even he knew no one would believe the purported facts “explaining” the video.
    Sadly, despite all this evidence of illegal conduct, Fulton County still certified its results. That’s what happens when the fox is the one charged with certifying the henhouse.
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/12/democrats_defense_of_georgia_election_fraud_video_doesnt_hold_water.html#ixzz6fkT5ZgQO

    Also see this recent development,

    It just got much worse for poor ole Miss Ruby,,,
    Ruby Freeman, while face timing, inadvertently reveals fake unaddressed mail in ballots that she is processing
    https://uncommondescent.com/ud-newswatch-highlights/ud-live-event-from-nov-3-us-election-contd-bbc-yes-the-beeb-on-blms-marxist-founders-we-fought-to-change-history-and-we-won/#comment-719398

  455. 455
    ET says:

    Wow. Mac is totally clueless. If the original numbers were wrong the recounts will obviously just confirm the original numbers. Recounts just find MISSING votes or phantom votes. They do not find illegal votes.

  456. 456
    jerry says:

    Sheryl Atikkison is trying to keep up with all that is happening on voter fraud allegations. Her latest is

    https://sharylattkisson.com/2020/12/amid-a-new-lawsuit-filed-in-georgia-today-by-president-trump-allegations-of-widespread-irregularities-and-fraud-are-building/

    We are a prisoner of our news sources unless one is willing to find out how various parts of the news spectrum is portraying the same story. Then one has to make up one’s own mind. There are no legitimate news organizations anymore.

  457. 457
    bornagain77 says:

    As I predicted yesterday, poor ole Miss Ruby Freeman is in the process of ‘disappearing’ off the face of the earth,,,

    Ruby Freeman had an active Facebook page last night.
    It was shut down early on Friday morning.,,,

    Yaacov Apelbaum sent us more research on Ruby. Yaacov confirms Shaye is Ruby’s daughter.
    It’s pretty clear Ruby is anti-Trump.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/ruby-2-1-2048×1489.jpg
    And now there is video of Ruby secretly passing something to her daughter during the ballot counting.
    It is not clear what was passed. Some readers say it was a USB stick but it is not clear what they passed to each other.
    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/update-ruby-freeman-elections-supervisor-shaye-ross-strange-pass-also-caught-video/

    How long until (Ruby and Shaye) completely disappear off the face of the earth into the nether world of Hunter Biden and Eric Coomer??? Or has she/they already been ‘disappeared’? Why are they hiding??? Obviously it is simply because they all know that what they did was wrong!

    Genesis 3:9-10
    But the LORD God called out to the man, “Where are you?” “I heard Your voice in the garden,” he replied, “and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

  458. 458
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: U/D8, Dec 5: Smoking gun? The midnight, unsupervised ballot counting in GA — though strictly, the count from its outset with scrutineers corralled, was invalid.

  459. 459
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry,

    Ms Attkisson is a key independent voice. Her comment is clear:

    In Michigan, witnesses say they watched election workers rescan ballots for Joe Biden up to ten times each. In Georgia, new surveillance video presented at a hearing purports to show election workers dismissing observers, then pulling out large stashes of ballots they counted without the legal observers present. Multiple postal employees and election workers have testified they were instructed to illegally backdate ineligible mail in ballots. In several states, observers say they were blocked while votes were counted illegally; signatures weren’t properly matched; voter ID laws were circumvented; and voter turnout exceeded the number of voters registered. And analysts have identified what they call statistical anomalies: massive vote dumps in the middle of the night that exceeded machine capacity and flipped the 2020 presidential contest. In that race, President Donald Trump, a Republican, appeared to be heading toward a landslide victory on election night, only to have former Vice President Joe Biden, a Democrat, flip the script as giant batches of absentee and mail-in votes were counted in the days following the election amid cries of irregularities.

    The claims are contained in hundreds of sworn declarations, affidavits, videos, statements, witness accounts, arrests, and expert analyses from election observers, Republicans, Democrats, attorneys, and statistics specialists across a nearly dozen states. There are complaints ranging from process errors, incompetence, differences over election laws, and accidental errors, to outright fraud.

    It’s impossible to know at this stage how many of the claims can be verified and, if proven, how consequential they could be in the big picture. And it is increasingly clear how difficult it is to nail down any evidence and details in the time frame required to seriously challenge the results of the 2020 presidential election.

    Actually, the onward backstop is in January, but it is indeed the case that it is crunch time. I have doubts that many responsible officials are willing to take stringent measures, almost regardless of degree of evidence. Unfortunately, that points to onward chaos, polarisation and conflict. For sure it is no accident that the public at large are not being given a good backgrounder on the US Constitution’s backstops for tainted elections.

    It is clear to me that in part you are dealing with an emerging oligarchy who want to rewrite the rules at will to suit themselves. Which is almost a definition of nihilistic will to power.

    The storm is on and on line of drift the sandbars of Syrtis lie ahead.

    KF

  460. 460
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: Recall, the sum or difference of integers is per closure of the set, an integer. Once we see what is not an integer, per core defining characteristic of a vote as an act of declared choice towards a candidate that is countable, then what is put out cannot be a vote total, even if its magnitude is close to or the same as that of the correct integer.

    Your incredibly patronising attitude is noted. As is your bizarre fixation on some YouTuber’s explanation of numbers from a data stream that he himself misidentified until he was told he was wrong.

    In 1961 the vote between Kennedy and Nixon was close, very close. The court cases trying to show fraud went on for months, well into 1961. There was no ‘insurrection’. There was no break-down of law and order. There was no rioting. Nixon, for all his faults, reacted like a gentleman and a statesman; he refused to contend the declared election results and asked others to stop as he did not want to cause a constitutional crisis. The system did its job and settled the matter, peacefully. And, eight years later Nixon won fairly and squarely. Plus, four years after that he won a massive landslide victory over McGovern.

    Those of you who are supporting the notion of martial law or some kind of apocalyptic revolution are scary fools. IF you have the evidence then put it into legal play via the existing system. But that would mean having to respect the outcome of that process and, since you’re not willing to do that because you KNOW you are right, you cannot conceive of losing like civilised people. If it comes down to open conflict and military intervention it won’t be because there was (or wasn’t) election fraud, it will be because some people cannot live by the constitution they claim to be defending.

  461. 461
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, stop your ad hominems or leave this thread, please. KF

  462. 462
    ET says:

    Losing like civilized people? You mean like the loser democrats who rioted and looted their cities this past summer? If the democrats are any example losing like civilized people, I will stay away from that. People like JVL definitely don’t act like civilized people. JVL’s hypocrisy is duly noted.

  463. 463
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: JVL, stop your ad hominems or leave this thread, please.

    I’ll stop if you guys stop.

  464. 464
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Having addressed the discipline issue, I will note on substance. That substance is simple: a vote is ingerently an integer and whatever is not an integer therefore is not a vote. The numbers communicated to the media have non-zero fractional parts and are calculated from what claims to be a vote total multiplied by a fraction. Thus, what is presented as a vote total per candidate is not in fact a proper chain of custody report of the sum of votes for said candidate as counted. This is the tip of an iceberg and the leaks from 2001 – 3 on on GEMS, DNA software for this field, show further troubling signs. The blackbox voting initiative were early whistleblowers on this and the work of a programmer they used has shown that something is wrong with the software. There is separate evidence down to a 2006 CNN news clip that shows issues on the provenance of said election management systems; such is embedded in the previous thread. Above, will be seen text on that and related issues. That said, such are secondary issues, the primary concern is that destabilising elements have been injected into the election system and are about to be deeply entrenched through HR1. All of these mark failure of the moral duty challenge. KF

    PS: I again clip what objectors so studiously avoid addressing substantially and cogently, the moral duty challenge:

    First, all relevant officials and connected persons have a main duty to ensure integrity of elections, and know or should acknowledge the potential for fraud and what it can mean. Therefore, neglect on a systemic basis is only partly negligence, it becomes in material part a strong sign of wrongful intent. In the case of the US and a relevant party, in Feb 1994, the NYT published a front page, just below fold article [see, 1273 previous thread] on a judge’s reversal of an election outcome and of majority in a legislature in PA, due to fraud connected to a known vulnerable type of ballot and to harvesting, intimidation etc. Ten years later in 2004, The US congress received testimony on fraud in the Ukraine [see, U/D 17, previous thread] that further amplified such techniques. So, systemic ignorance cannot be responsibly pleaded and indeed is discredited. Accordingly there were just on these cases sixteen to twenty six years to purge the said party of such a taint, but instead this year excuse of a pandemic was taken to multiply opportunity and means for similar fraud. This is a moral duty demonstration of wrongful intent and shifts or should shift our common sense evaluation of evidence [affidavits, anomalous patterns, disturbances to counts, frustration of proper scrutineering (ponder barriers erected to block even distant observation as has been circulated by images, not just reports of witnesses), surge in vulnerable ballots, single candidate ballots etc] to recognise these as consistent with carrying out a morally demonstrated intent. This obtains whether or not sufficient weight can be amassed to lead courts to vacate suspect ballots, or whether criminal charges can be brought against leading individuals. That common sense issue is also implicated in Federalist 68, etc so state legislatures may have a duty to act in face of a tainted election. The implication, no you do not get a second round to try again, but responsible bodies take up from [and remedy] your failure can be taken as a built in deterrent effect. However moral fibre in our civilisation has long been progressively undermined for generations.

  465. 465
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, you will see that I have asked people to stop from abuse. You refuse to apologise by way of cross complaint. Please leave this thread. KF

  466. 466
    Viola Lee says:

    KF, what ad hominems by JVL? I’ve read a few of his last posts where he has strongly, and accurately in my opinion, responded to the general theme of fraud that is being supported here, but I don’t see any obvious ad hominems. I certainly don’t see his posts are any more forceful than the general tenor of many of you, yourself, included. An ad hominem is when someone’s points are dismissed by pointing to some category of person they belong to, like being a Darwinist or a left-wing agitprop evolutionary materialist scientismist.

    So in my opinion you’d be hard pressed to justify asking JVL to leave without sending a number of other posters with him.

  467. 467
    JVL says:

    Viola Lee: So in my opinion you’d be hard pressed to justify asking JVL to leave without sending a number of other posters with him.

    I did use the term ‘fools’ and have been quite dismissive of many opinions voiced here. Compared to others I thought I was much less abrasive and rude but I guess rudeness is at least in part in the eye of the beholder without objectively defined categories. While (I don’t believe) Kairosfocus can actually ban someone from a thread I shall try harder to only criticise the beliefs and not the persons. I do think there is a double-standard here for this kind of thing but what can we say: it’s not our blog, we don’t make the rules. But I agree with you: when people ask for objective consideration of the evidence and well-mannered discussion but then violate those precepts left and right it is a bit galling.

    I don’t know if you’re aware of The Skeptical Zone; a blog that was explicitly created by someone who was, at first, lauded for her genteelness but then later vilified for standing up to the moderators and subsequently banned. I don’t know if it’s still active but it’s interesting that people (including Dave Scot and ET (once or twice) in a previously incarnation) used to be banned from this forum at very high rates. Things have actually improved on that regard at least. I think Mapou was banned but came back recently . . . can’t remember his new handle. Mung sometimes sticks his head above the parapet to do his court jester thing but he’s been mostly absent. The one stalwart who has surprised me with his absence has been Upright BiPed. He(?) along with Bornagain77 and Kairosfocus are amongst the longest, loyalist contributors so it surprises me he’s been away. Perhaps he’s ill? Barry Arrington has also been largely MIA although he did offer a sort of an apology recently for his vast underestimate of the lethalness of COVID-19 on an old thread which then had the comments closed so, while I was going to thank him for the concession, no one could note the comment.

  468. 468
    bornagain77 says:

    Hmmm, I wonder if VL’s sense of fair play, i.e. not censoring opposing viewpoints, extends to Main Stream Media, Facebook, and Twitter all ganging up and ruthlessly censoring opposing viewpoints? indeed, ganging up and ruthlessly censoring the truth itself?,,, i.e. Hunter Biden’s laptop for example!

    And why should we respect opposing viewpoints when they don’t respect ours? i.e. Why should we not censor you, JVL, and all other opposing viewpoints, simply because that is what we want to do?

    VL might rightly argue that it is simply good to do the right thing, even when others don’t do it, simply because it is good to always do the right thing even when others don’t do the right thing.

    VL could even rightly argue that it is even more important to do the right thing when others don’t do the right thing since it will serve as a good example for those who are not doing the right thing.

    In other words, VL could also rightly argue that it is good for a person to suffer injustice for a short time in the hope that those who failing to act justly could see the errors of their way, via a good example, and eventually start to act justly because they eventually realize that it is simply the right thing to do. ,,,

    But from whence does VL derive his moral basis for holding that it is good to suffer injustice for a short time so that others might see the errors of their way and repent?

    It certainly does not come the Darwinian worldview where it is held that all life arose via the weak dying and the strong surviving,,,

    “One general law, leading to the advancement of all organic beings, namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die.”
    – Charles Darwin

    ,,, Shoot, not only is that moral principle insufficient to explain why we ought to endure injustice for the greater good, letting the weak die and the strong survive is downright antithetical to the moral principle of enduring injustice for the greater good.

    As Jordan Peterson noted,,,

    “What the hell is irrational about me getting exactly what I want from every one of you whenever I want it at every possible second? Why is that irrational and how possibly is that more irrational than us cooperating so we can both have a good time of it. I don’t understand that.
    I mean they talk as if the the psychopathic tendency is irrational. There’s nothing irrational about it. It’s pure naked self-interest. How is that irrat