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Debating Darwin and Design: A Dialogue Between Two Christians

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A couple of months ago, I agreed to take part in a written debate with a good friend of mine, Francis Smallwood. Francis, like me, is a commited Christian. Unlike me though, he is also a neo-Darwinist. On his blog Musings Of A Scientific Nature he writes on many different scientific issues, although his primary focus is on Darwinism. I encourage UD readers to check his blog out.

As an enthusiastic ID proponent, I obviously think his embrace of Darwinian theory is profoundly mistaken, and equally I think his criticisms of ID are weak. However, he is at least willing to engage in debate with people of opposing view points and is not as dismissive as most Darwinists.

Our idea was to chose several points of contention that are related to the debate between ID and Darwinism. These will include questions such as: Is ID science or creationism? Can we detect design in nature? What is the evidence for neo-Darwinism?, and several others. In turn, we will focus on each particular issue and have an extended back and forth.

We have aimed to keep the discussion civil and measured, making sure we refrain from lapsing into the usual name-calling and vituperation. Though this is intended to be an extended debate over a long period of time, we have only just scratched the surface of the debate. The first issue we have chosen to focus on is the question whether ID is genuine science or merely a form of stealth creationism. So far we have had a couple of exchanges and more will be forthcoming.

I thought some readers here may be interested in this discussion and so will post my responses to Francis on here over time. At the top will be a link to his blog so you can go there and read his responses yourself. Though the discussion so far is fairly elementary, I hope some will find it edifying and we will be sure to get into deeper waters as these issues are opened up and probed further.

We began by writing opening statements to this discussion. You can read Francis’ statement here My statement can be read below:

Debating Darwin and Design

A Dialogue Between Two Christians

Joshua Gidney-Opening Statement

‘Automatically rejecting dissenting views that challenge the conventional wisdom is a dangerous fallacy, for almost every generally accepted view was once deemed eccentric or heretical. Perpetuating the reign of a supposed scientific orthodoxy in this way, whether in a research laboratory or in a court room, is profoundly inimical to the search for truth…’1

Stephen J. Gould

When it comes to the ultimate, vexing questions of origins, life, meaning and purpose, few are as hotly debated as questions about Darwin’s theory of evolution and Intelligent Design theory. For decades there has been much controversy in public and academic circles and although this controversy is most prevalent in America, the heated discussion can be found thriving almost anywhere. Due to the nature of the issues, discussions are often fraught with emotion, ideological baggage, worldview and religious beliefs and so it is often remarkably difficult to get to the truth behind the matters at hand. These questions are so important and attract such passion because they are to do with our own history, nature and origin. As philosopher and mathematician David Berlinski notes ‘There is a wide appreciation of the fact that if biologists are wrong about Darwin, they are wrong about life…’2 They are also important because science is one of the most successful and powerful cultural authorities, and theories firmly held to be true within the scientific community often have a huge influence on how everybody else views the world.

It is true to say that Neo-Darwinism ‘The synthesis of Darwin’s original theory with Mendelian genetics…’3, is zealously affirmed by the majority of those within the scientific community. Biological complexity, they claim, has evolved by natural selection acting upon random/chance genetic mutations, producing descent with modification. Neo-Darwinian theory can be expressed simply in the following way:

RV + NS –> DWM

These are purely non-teleological unguided mechanisms and so it is argued that Neo-Darwinism is sufficient to explain the diversification of all biological life without reference to any creative intelligence. The theory is said to be strongly supported by several different lines of evidence which ‘Taken together…converge to provide a mutually supporting evidential framework.’4, and although the theory has been voluptuously embraced by the majority of the scientific community, it has been rejected with contempt and disdain by many people ever since it was first proposed.

Amongst Darwin dissenters are Creationists who mistakenly oppose it based on their particular literalistic interpretation of the Genesis account of creation. On the other hand many committed atheists attempt to surreptitiously foist a metaphysically naturalistic philosophy onto the theory. Since the majority of the human race is religious in some sense, no wonder it’s opposed and disbelieved by so many! Despite all this it is vital to note that ‘There is an important difference between the biological theory of evolution and the various philosophies that people have tried to derive from it…’5 Neo-Darwinism, if true, would not in any way imply atheism as there are many independent reasons to think that it is false. Also it seems that it is perfectly possible to reconcile scripture with the theory of evolution as Christians are open to a wide variety of interpretations, allowing them to follow the evidence wherever it leads. Science is not in a perpetual conflict with Christianity. The more fundamental question is whether or not Neo-Darwinism is true. I myself do not think so. Being a committed Christian, I used to be a tentative theistic evolutionist but against my will I have recently been persuaded to join another party.

As I have mentioned, the clash between creationism and evolution has a long and turbulent history, but in the last couple of decades the Neo-Darwinian paradigm has been challenged by another voice. This challenge has come from the Intelligent Design movement. They are a small but growing number of scientists and academics from various fields, who believe strongly that Neo-Darwinian theory is inadequate to explain certain physical features within the universe. They also believe that there is positive, scientifically detectable evidence that some form of intelligent agency is involved. Being a born again Darwinian, Richard Dawkins, along with most other evolutionary biologists, affirm that biology is ‘The study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed.’6 The appearance of design being entirely illusory. In contrast, ID theorists believe that ‘…real design exists in nature and is empirically detectable by the methods of science’7 (emphasis added). Philosopher Peter S. Williams succinctly summarizes the core claim of ID theory as claiming that ‘empirical evidence warrants a scientific design inference using reliable design detection criteria.’8

ID advocates claim that to recognise something as having been designed, it needs to exhibit both complexity and specificity. Design theorist William A. Dembski has defended this design detection criteria at length and it is known as “specified complexity”, also referred to as “complex specified information” (CSI). This criterion tells us that ‘Neither complexity without specificity nor specificity without complexity compels us to infer design’9, but a combination of both does. It is important to note that ‘Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence (SETI)’10, and thus design detection is already used in other scientific circles. Once the design detection criteria is applied to particular features in the universe, design theorists argue that intelligent design can be shown in several areas within nature (this is a point that’s often forgotten by many critics). Proposed areas that claim to exhibit signs of intelligent causation are the information rich structures found in DNA, irreducibly complex bio-molecular machines, the Cambrian explosion, the fine-tuning of our solar system and local habitat, and the fine-tuning of the initial conditions of the universe for the development of carbon based life. Design inferences tend to be more controversial in the area of biology because they suggest that there are certain features that cannot be explained by purely Darwinian processes.

Although the ID movement is growing, it is true to say that the majority of the mainstream scientific community do not accept it. In fact, to say this would be an understatement. There are many people who hold ID theory in such withering contempt, that it probably makes their blood pressure rise to triple digits when they discuss it. Witness chemist Peter Atkins in his remarkably apoplectic review of biochemist Michael Behe’s book Darwin’s Black Box:

‘Dr Behe waves his magic wand, discards the scientific method, and launches into his philosopher’s stone of universal explanation: it was all designed. Presenting this silly, lazy, ignorant, and intellectually abominable view — essentially discarding reason and invoking that first resort of the intellectually challenged (that is, God).’11

Vacuous objurgations such as these are often hurled by many scientists who oppose ID and it often prompts a lapse from the well-ordered decencies of academia. As the controversial movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed revealed, opposition amongst the scientific ‘elite’ is often so vociferous that many people who have expressed support for ID, have been ostracized and ‘expelled’ from academia, several supporters losing their jobs.12 As well as provoking indignation amongst many atheistic scientists, it also frustrates many theistic evolutionists and Creationists. Theistic evolutionist Denis Alexander claims that ‘it fails to meet the most basic criteria of scientific theorising and practice.’13 whilst biologist and Catholic Kenneth Miller, one of ID’s most vehement critics, argues that ‘…design is built upon a stunning lack of curiosity and a remarkable unwillingness to embrace scientific discovery. Design rests ultimately on the claim of ignorance…’14 Critics claim incessantly that ID theory is merely a form of “stealth creationism”, that ‘Not a single paper espousing creationism or intelligent design has ever been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.’15, and that all of the claims made by ID theorists have been refuted or are devoid of any content.

As mentioned, despite all the controversy and often vituperative debate that this topic provokes, these questions remain at once profound, fascinating and important. As a committed Christian, I used to hold the position of theist evolution but have gradually been persuaded that the Neo-Darwinian synthesis is deficient and that the ID theorists are correct. I think that ID is too often misrepresented, misunderstood and its various criticisms are largely without merit. I also affirm that it is a legitimate scientific theory. My good friend Francis is also a committed Christian but holds to a theistic evolutionary view and so on this issue we are in disagreement. Because we are both fascinated with questions such as these, we have decided to initiate a respectful written dialogue, all of which will gradually be published on both our blogs. It should be said that neither of us are scientists or are formally qualified in the areas pertinent to the issues, but we will attempt to responsibly present research and substantial and informed argumentation. We both hope that readers will find the discussion edifying, thought provoking, and helpful.

References

    1. Brief Amici Curiae of Phys., Scientists, and Historians of Sci. in Support of Petitioners, Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc., at 2–6, 509 U.S. 579 (1993) (No. 92–102).
    2. David Berlinski. The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions. (United states: Basic Books. 2009). p.186.
    3. Graeme Finlay. Stephen Lloyd. Stephen Pattemore. David Swift. Debating Darwin: Two Debates: Is Darwinism True & Does it Matter? (Milton Keynes: Paternoster Press. 2009). p.X.
    4. ibid. p.131.
    5. Dennis Alexander. Robert S. White. Beyond Belief: Science, Faith and Ethical Challenges. (Oxford: Lion Hudson. 2004). p.106.
    6. Richard Dawkins. The Blind Watchmaker. (New York: W.W. Norton & Company. 1986). p. 1.
    7. Marcus R. Ross. Intelligent Design and Young Earth Creationism: Investigating Nested Hierarchies of Philosophy and Belief. (2003) Available at: http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_58668.htm
    8. Peter S. Williams. The Design Inference from Specified Complexity Defended by Scholars Outside the Intelligent Design Movement: A Critical Review. Philosophia Christi (Vol. 9, Issue 2, 2007). Available at: http://epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=54
    9. Williams. The Design Inference from Specified Complexity Defended by Scholars Outside the Intelligent Design Movement: A Critical Review. Op.cit.
    10. Uncommon Descent. ID Defined. Available at: https://uncommondescent.com/id-defined/. (Accessed 25th August 2011).
    11. The Secular Web. 1998. Peter Atkins Review of Darwin’s Black Box. Available at: http: < http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_atkins/behe.html>. (Accessed 25th August 2011).
    12. Cf. Ben Stein’s Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Premise Media/Vivendi Entertainment, 2008).
    13. Denis Alexander. ‘Designs on Science’. Available at: < http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=260&TopicID=2&CategoryID=1>. (Accessed 26th August 2011).
    14. Kenneth Miller. Only a theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul. (Viking Penguin: New York. 2008). p.87
    15. Charles Foster. The Selfless Gene: Living With God and Darwin. (Hodder & Stoughton: London. 2009) p. xiv.
Comments
Gregory: I listened to the interview. I see now what the problem is. I spent a long time studying *Nature's Destiny*, and imbibed the thought of that book, but had not yet heard this interview; you, on the other hand, had heard the interview, but have not (as I far as I know), read *Nature's Destiny*. So we have been basing our discussions on different statements of Denton. I would suggest that his thought is in the process of change, and that, while retaining much of what he said in *Nature's Destiny* (which he still largely defends, as a recent Discovery podcast on ENV shows), he is modifying some of his thought in the light of new developments in biology since 1998. Denton in the interview suggests two alternatives to the mechanistic model of life: (a) the vitalist; (b) the "Aristotelian." At the end of his discussion, he somewhat blurs them together, as if forgetting that he had distinguished them from each other. (But we must be merciful; he said he was suffering from jet lag at the time.) By "vitalism" in the interview he appears to have in mind a view in which life possesses some properties which are not machinelike [see my parenthesis to sense (i) in 71 above], but he does not endorse the old 19th-century vitalism [my sense (i) in 71 above] which made organic molecules somehow fundamentally different from inorganic ones. (That he view, he says in *Nature's Destiny*, was exploded in the later 19th century.) How he connects the "vital" properties of life with evolution is not yet clear; there is nothing in the interview that suggests he regards evolution as directed by the "elan vital" of Bergson, for example [my sense (ii) in 71 above]. My sense from the interview is that his thinking is now moving beyond what he said in *Nature's Destiny*, which did not defend "vitalism" (or even mention it, except as a discredited view of biochemistry from the 19th century), toward a new understanding which revives, not the biochemical doctrine called "vitalism," but the background sensibility which informed it, i.e., a perception of the features of life which cannot be exhausted by mechanical description. And I have no objection to this move. I certainly do not endorse a purely mechanical view of living organisms, and while his previous book did not endorse such a view, it might have seemed to some readers to encourage it. It will be, however, important for him to give more precise content to the term "vitalism," if he is going to start using it to characterize his thought, and he needs to explain exactly how this term connects with the picture of life he drew in *Nature's Destiny*, given that he still supports the main theses put forward in that book. So I'll concede to you his use of the term, but I want to impress upon you that this term is for a him a departure from his previous vocabulary, and is not even clearly in step with his most recent long interview on ENV. In short, Denton's thought in the future will require attentive scrutiny. I look forward to his long-delayed third book. As for your remarks about ideology, they seem to me to be sudden outbursts of indignation for an ill-identified offense. How is Denton's thought influenced by "ideology"? What do you see in the 8-minute interview that makes his remarks "ideological"?Timaeus
September 12, 2012
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"If you want me to check it out, give me the exact locations on the interview where he uses the term; I’m not going to hunt for them." Follow the link in #65. It's an 8 minute interview. Denton uses 'vital' and 'vitalist' and speaks about "the vitalist scenario of the world," which appears to be the way he sees things. He says some very nice things about 'ID people,' as you like to call them, Timaeus, so you'll like that. The guy obviously has no clue what ideology is and how it influences him. He couldn't discern an -ism from an -ian to save a dying snowflake. That's all the time I have for now.Gregory
September 11, 2012
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Gregory: I don't know how Denton is currently using the word "vitalism." But Denton, who is well-versed in the history of evolutionary thought, should also be well-versed enough in the history of scientific thought to know that in recent centuries "vitalism" has referred primarily to (i) a 19th-century theory about the special quality of organic (vs. inorganic) compounds (a theory associated with a contemporaneous sharp distinction between living and non-living matter); (ii) the view of evolution associated with Bergson, involving an "elan vital." The argument in *Nature's Destiny* is completely incompatible with either of these notions of vitalism. So Denton is inviting massive confusion if he is now calling himself a vitalist. But it's not clear to me from your quoted words that he actually calls himself that; it seems to me that you may be yanking the word "vital" out of context. If you want me to check it out, give me the exact locations on the interview where he uses the term; I'm not going to hunt for them. I certainly would not call Denton an "ideologue" for ID. I don't consider Denton an "ideologue" at all. You sometimes say very silly things. I do consider Denton an intelligent design proponent. (And I couldn't care less what case you put the initials in, so please yourself.) No one ever said that Darwin alone was responsible for the mechanistic paradigm of nature. Certainly Darwin further extended and promoted it, but he was not its originator. It has roots going much further back, in Kant and Hobbes and Descartes, and in ancient times as well. On another point, I've never seen the phrase "intelligently designed chance" in scientific, philosophical, or theological literature. Have you? Or did you just coin the phrase now? I didn't speak of God controlling random processes. I spoke of design vs. chance. If you come home and find your room vacuumed, your clothes hung up, and all your papers stacked neatly on your desk, you know that design, not chance, was responsible for this situation. ID people say that, if evolution occurred, design, not chance, was responsible for it, or at least for its major thrust. I don't find this a complicated thing to understand. I believe that I already conceded to you the point about the ID "movement," in another discussion, so I'm not sure why you are harping about it again, as if I hadn't done so. Perhaps you are getting old and can't remember discussions from just a few weeks ago? Finally, yes, all the people I named are creationists. They might not always call themselves that in all contexts, since the term is often misunderstood to suggest loony anti-science Bible-thumpers, and they are not anti-science, and their criticisms of Darwinian biology are science-based; but they certainly would call themselves creationists in some contexts. Of course, I am using "creationist" in the standard American popular sense of (i) a person who denies that macroevolution has occurred, and that species, or at least basic types of creatures, were separately created; (ii) a person who thinks that scientific theories about origins are invalid if they are not compatible with the teaching of the Bible on that subject. I think that (i) represents the position of all the people I named, and that (ii) would represent the position of most of them -- not sure about Wells.Timaeus
September 11, 2012
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"For all these reasons, and more, I’m confident that my presentation of the facts is more or less accurate, though of course we all make slips in detail from time to time." - Timaeus Right, slips in detail, just like how you were confident in the facts that ID leaders don't refer to the IDM when they actually do? Let the tables be turned: Are you interested in intellectual growth, Timaeus or only interested in manning the battlements for...'the design revolution'? Do you actually want to be 'brought up to speed' and would you put in the effort to do so if I gave you a reading and viewing list? I'm convinced that your 'science and religion' (you mentioned it was History of Ideas and Philosophy of Religion here before, not 'science and religion' per se) research from 40 years ago is quite outdated and that it could be updated, should you commit to and humbly accept the possibility of re-education. I think Ray is very wrong in many ways, but also that you are not right in many ways. Will you accept my challenge, Timaeus, just as Joshua has done with Francis - the main topic of this thread?Gregory
September 11, 2012
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Ray Martinez: I made no argument based on authority. I made my argument from texts. I showed, for example, that you had used an inadequate text of Darwin, and directed you to a later edition, containing a historical sketch which I myself have read. That historical sketch -- which you apparently have no interest in hunting down and consulting -- indicates that Darwin had predecessors in evolutionary theory. So does the book by Gilson which I mentioned. So do a score of other books which you have not consulted. Your account of the history is just plain wrong. I mentioned your lack of education not to give me any authority, but to explain to you *why* you keep making these elementary errors. You lack the intellectual training to read texts in these subject areas -- theology, history of science, design theory, etc. You could make up for that defect by getting some training. Why you won't do this, I don't know. Certainly it's not lack of time -- you spend endless hours on the internet, so you could easily spend that time in a classroom. Perhaps you don't have the money for tuition. Well, then it wouldn't be your fault. But I sense that the problem is that you have no *desire* to improve your knowledge by submitting yourself to the instruction of teachers. I sense that you think you can figure out these things for yourself, just by reading a very small number of narrow literalist sources and reasoning as you go along. But you can't. The material is too hard. Training is needed. (And by the way, from his astronomy degree, Fisher *did* acquire relevant training -- mathematical training -- for the task he set himself, i.e., to put population genetics on a firm quantitative footing.) To answer your question, my Ph.D. research was smack in the area we are talking about -- religion and science. One of the authors I read for my comprehensive exams was Darwin. Another was Bergson. That's how I know about their differing versions of evolution, and how I know -- as you do not -- that Darwinism and evolution are not synonymous. And I've been reading about the history of science for probably 45 years now. For all these reasons, and more, I'm confident that my presentation of the facts is more or less accurate, though of course we all make slips in detail from time to time. And that's why I'm confident that your presentation of the facts is uninformed. I don't have any more time to talk to you, Ray. Either you are interested in intellectual growth, or you are interested only in manning the battlements to defend the literalist, Biblicist view of life that you decided on years ago. If you are interested in learning about theology, evolution, and ID, I can give you a reading list of good books to bring you up to speed. If you are interested only in fighting and arguing to defend a fixed dogmatic position, we have nothing useful to say to each other, so let's cut this short and move on.Timaeus
September 11, 2012
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Timaeus #50: What is the highest level of formal education that you have completed? Timaeus #63: I don’t expect that Ray will answer my question from #50, but I have a pretty good idea what the answer is, and I can understand why he doesn’t want to give it. He won’t be the first person on the internet to bluff about his level of scientific or theological knowledge, and then, when asked where he acquired it, to go silent. Timaeus #61: I had a lengthy university education. Timaeus #55: Hope springs eternal for those who love to teach. Regarding #63: Timmy says I bluffed concerning education credentials. This statement is completely false. I never said anything at all about education credentials. What I did say, by implication, is that I possess knowledge in Theology, Logic, Philosophy, and History of Science. So far Timmy is showing that he does not listen or that he deliberately misrepresents. In either case the same supports a claim that Timmy is not educated or civilized. Regarding #55: Where did Timmy obtain the idea that in this blog or forum he is recognized as a teacher? Please tell us who sanctioned you to be a teacher and post the link? Then post the link where anyone submitted themself to you as a student? I seriously doubt that Timmy will answer these questions in a forthright manner. The larger point is that on this blog or forum no one is a teacher per se. The whole point or purpose of the blog or forum is to challenge claims, to show a presumed on-looking audience that your claims are true and your opponents claims are false. Regarding #50 and many other statements Timmy has made proclaiming how knowledgeable he is: His underlying point is that credentials make one correct automatically. If Timmy was educated, that is, if he actually possessed knowledge as opposed to passing classes, he would know that his underlying point is known commonly as an "invalid argument from authority." An argument from authority is when a person cites credentials as the only criteria to win a point or argument. The argument from authority is wholly invalid because it says persons that possess credentials---their claims cannot be questioned or challenged. This is exactly what Timmy has done in this thread. He has thrown a tantrum each and everytime I challenged his claims while crying "How dare you!" Again, the whole pupose of this blog or forum is to show your opponents claims to be false. Timmy, in response, has said his claims cannot be challenged based only on his perceived educational credentials, the invalid argument from authority. Most people do not know that the founding treatise of the Darwinian genetical theory of natural selection was written by a person (Ronald Fisher) who did not have a college degree in biology. Fisher had a BA degree in Astronomy. The only advanced degree he had was Professor of Eugenics (white superiority). Yet Fisher is regarded as one of the greatest biologists since Darwin. Now Timmy has alluded to the fact that he has a college degree. I do not have a college degree. But Timmy has not told us what his degree is in or any details. But I am not asking him for any details, because in these context it doesn't matter. The fact that Timmy would base everything he says on the invalid argument from authority once again supports a claim that he is not very bright despite any credential that he might possess. RM (Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist)Ray Martinez
September 11, 2012
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Gregory:
Right, and ‘Intelligent Design’ refers to the origin/Origin. That ID has nothing to do with ‘the process’ shows why ID is not a suitable alternative to evolution.
Dude, you are confused. ID is OK with "evolution" as in change in allele frequency and descent with modification. ID says it wasn't by chance- meaning organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design. Just say it Gregory- you have no interest in ID you are just interested in strawmen.Joe
September 11, 2012
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Gregory:
So, ‘intelligently designed chance’ is a misnomer in your view of ID? Another way to ask it, are you saying that God *cannot* (and *does* not) control random natural processes?
What does that even mean- to control random natural processes? And if you cannot tell the difference between a God and no God at all then you don't add one.Joe
September 11, 2012
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"Exactly! ID is an alternative to 'chance,' not 'evolution'.” - Timaeus So, 'intelligently designed chance' is a misnomer in your view of ID? Another way to ask it, are you saying that God *cannot* (and *does* not) control random natural processes? I asked this recently elsewhere and the ID supporter responded: "God can design and even control apparently random processes." (And then, of course, added a 'but'...) "Dembski, Meyer — OEC; Wells, Hunter, Luskin — all either YEC or OEC." - Timaeus You're calling all 5 of these guys 'Creationists'!?!? I don't really care what the qualifier signifies, OE or YE. But seriously, they are 'Creationists'?!? "Regarding Denton, he is certainly not a “vitalist” in any historically recognizable usage of that term." - Timaeus He sure sounds like a vitalist to me. He speaks of 'vital difference,' 'vital characteristics,' 'vitalistic principles' and the 'vitalist position' at the beginning and in the conclusion of his "Organism and Machine: The Flawed Analogy" paper. Just saying it ain't so because it suits your caricature of Denton as ideologue for ID doesn't make it true, Timaeus. In fact, Denton basically refers to himself as a 'vitalist' in this ID-hosted video - he talks about a 'vitalistic' era and even refers to 'classic vitalism': Michael Denton Interview He also promotes the Aristotelian viewpoint of natural forms, which just takes a short step towards Aristotelian-Thomism and away from ID. What I find fascinating is that Denton looks back beyond Darwin to the 17th century, indeed to Descartes. I raised this issue re: anti-Darwinism to ID leaders at the DI's Summer Program in 2008, saying that many of the problems they were indicating are present in Darwin, actually precede Darwin. Darwin cannot be held guilty for the mechanistic paradigm, which Denton is suggesting is on the cusp of being overtaking by a 'vitalistic revolution.' p.s. in the video, do you notice another ID leader refering the IDM, Timaeus? Not long ago here at UD you told me you thought ID leaders don't use 'Intelligent Design Movement' to characterise themselves. Add Denton to the list of almost every ID leader that in fact *does* use the term IDM. It gets tiring correcting you, Timaeus, but perhaps it is worth the cause of keeping the record straight.Gregory
September 11, 2012
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Wait, Upright Biped is an atheist? Then why is he fighting so hard for ID on another thread? I know that ID is not partial to religion but who would the designer be if you don’t believe in any diety?JLAfan2001
September 11, 2012
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In a bizarre reply to Upright BiPed (61), Ray writes: "This is what happens when a real anti-Evolutionist shows up: the phony anti-Evolutionists (Timaeus and the Discovery Institute) are exposed." In order to be a "phony anti-Evolutionist," I'd first of all have to be representing myself as an "anti-evolutionist." But I've never represented myself as anti-evolutionist. Nor is ID, *per se*, anti-evolutionist. ID is anti-chance. Thus, ID proponents can be Young Earth or Old Earth creationists, and they can also be evolutionists who believe the evolutionary process is planned or guided, rather than driven by random mutations and natural selection. Ray's problem is that he would like ID to be creationism, and he's angry that it isn't. Somewhere along the line, when he first heard of ID, he must have picked up the impression that it was creationist, and he has been fighting ever since to maintain that impression, condemning ID people who endorse or even merely allow evolution, as if they were wicked or cowardly backsliders from creationism. But of course, if Ray had listened in the first place, he would have learned that ID is not opposed to "evolution" but only to "chance" explanations of biological origins. And he would have learned the difference between "Darwinian evolution" and "evolution" simply. But listening is not Ray's strong point. He knows all the answers, and when you know all the answers, you don't have to bother to listen to anyone else. You don't have to read good books by informed people. You don't have to go to school and learn science, theology, history, etc. You already know it all. It must be nice to be one of those rare human beings who simply knows the truth, who has somehow "picked it up" from the atmosphere (or from God) without having to do any intellectual work for it. As for me, I'm not one of those gifted folks, so I'll continue to try to learn the truth the old-fashioned way -- through formal education, conversation with intelligent people, and private study. I don't expect that Ray will answer my question from #50, but I have a pretty good idea what the answer is, and I can understand why he doesn't want to give it. He won't be the first person on the internet to bluff about his level of scientific or theological knowledge, and then, when asked where he acquired it, to go silent.Timaeus
September 11, 2012
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Upright BiPed #59: [Regarding] #57 Ray “Egregious Error of Stupendous Ignorance” Martinez strikes again. The total lack of substance plainly indicates that our Atheist-Evolutionist, Upright BiPed, cannot address, much less refute, anything that I said.
Actually, what it indicates is that I think Christians going through their lives trying to out-Christian other Christains are a sore lot, suitable for mockery.Upright BiPed
September 11, 2012
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Ray Martinez wrote: "I never said Darwin invented evolution—that was Timmy’s straw man. Search my messages in this topic (#24, #37, #44, #49, #56) and fact check for yourself." Yes, let's do that. From #37: "Darwinism and evolution are perfectly synonymous. Before 1859 species were considered immutable (Darwin 1859:6; London: Murray). Science accepted evolution as explicated by Darwin. It has never looked back since." So "Darwinism" and "evolution" are "perfectly synonymous." This means that, whatever "evolution" is, it's "Darwinism," and whatever "Darwinism" is, it's "evolution." And "Darwinism" is the doctrine "explicated by Darwin." And that doctrine was not explicated until 1859, before which there was no "Darwinism" in the world. And if there was no doctrine of "Darwinism" in the world before 1859, then there couldn't have been any doctrine of "evolution" in the world before 1859, since, as Ray has told us, the two words are "perfectly synonymous." So Darwin must have "invented evolution." Could we, out of charity, rescue Ray's argument, by making a point which Ray himself did not make, and did not even think of? For example, could we argue that the teaching of "Darwinism" existed in the world before 1859, but wasn't called by that name? Well, maybe. But then, since "Darwinism" = "evolution" that means that the teaching of "evolution" also existed before 1859. Would Ray allow that? It seems not. Ray writes "Before 1859 species were considered immutable," and then he immediately and directly contrasts that with the situation after 1859, when "science accepted evolution as explicated by Darwin." So "evolution" for Ray means "species are not immutable." And conversely, "species are immutable" for Ray means "no evolution has occurred." So no one believed that evolution occurred before Darwin's book in 1859. Ray might answer: "OK, maybe *some* scientists believed that species were mutable before 1859." But he said "scientific men" without qualification. He never said "some scientific men" or "most scientific men." Just "scientific men." Without qualification, the natural way of reading "scientific men" is "all scientific men." Which means that no scientific men held to the mutability of species before 1859; so Darwin must have been first "scientific man" to champion the notion. But even if we, out of intellectual charity, accept that Ray was just writing poorly, and meant to say only "some scientific men" (which would be more correct, as I indicated with reference to Darwin's historical sketch, in the editions Ray has not only not read, but not even heard of), that still destroys one of Ray's contentions. If "some scientific men" believed in "the mutability of species" (which by implication Ray has equated with "evolution") before 1859, then the notion of "evolution" existed on its own, separate from the presentation Darwin gave it in 1859. It is therefore separate from "Darwinism." So then "evolution" and "Darwinism" cannot be synonymous. (Well, they *could* be, if *all* pre-Darwinian versions of evolution postulated the same mechanism as Darwin did. But they didn't; the example of Lamarck alone proves that.) So whatever way Ray turns, he lands himself in a mess of contradictions. The cause of this is: ( a ) he does not understand the vocabulary he is using; ( b ) he is ignorant of the history of the doctrines he is writing about; ( c ) his powers of logical inference and logical connection are almost non-existent. If Ray is wondering how I avoid getting entangled in similar messes of contradictions, I'll tell him: I've actually read Darwin's book. All of it. Has Ray? (Odds against: 100 to 1.) And I've read Darwin's historical sketch from the later editions. We know that Ray hasn't. And I've read numerous scholarly works on the history of evolutionary theory. Ray apparently hasn't. Finally, I had a lengthy university education, during the course of which I had my essays mercilessly criticized (by very bright and competent scholars, themselves trained in the world's top universities), until I (a) learned my subjects properly, and (b) learned to express myself in logically tight and readable English prose. And this last point about education reminds me: Ray, are you going to answer the question I asked in #50 above? You promised!Timaeus
September 10, 2012
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Upright BiPed #59: [Regarding] #57 Ray "Egregious Error of Stupendous Ignorance" Martinez strikes again. The total lack of substance plainly indicates that our Atheist-Evolutionist, Upright BiPed, cannot address, much less refute, anything that I said. In essence, as one might expect, our Atheist-Evolutionist is backing fellow Evolutionists Timaeus and the Discovery Institute. This is what happens when a real anti-Evolutionist shows up: the phony anti-Evolutionists (Timaeus and the Discovery Institute) are exposed. RM (Old Earth, Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist)Ray Martinez
September 10, 2012
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#57 Ray “Egregious Error of Stupendous Ignorance” Martinez strikes again. :)Upright BiPed
September 10, 2012
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???--------------!!! (approximate sound of jaw dropping open) re: reply 56 aboveTimaeus
September 10, 2012
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Jon Garvey #51: I give the point to Timaeus. What point? I never said Darwin invented evolution---that was Timmy's straw man. Search my messages in this topic (#24, #37, #44, #49, #56) and fact check for yourself. I have said---repeatedly---that species, before Darwin published, were held to be immutable by scientific men (Darwin 1859:6, 310; London: Murray). Therefore the evolution that science accepted, and still accepts, is Darwinian. The reason Timmy set up this straw man is because he is attempting to deflect away from the fact that he is on record as saying the exact opposite---that science accepted evolution before 1859. In "support" he posted an unscholarly link that contained no references. His secondary source did NOT say evolution enjoyed scientific acceptance. It said various persons advocated the concept---that's all. My source (Charles Darwin) is a primary source. IF a secondary source were to contradict a primary source then the secondary source cannot be held as conveying fact. Here are the Darwin quotes from the first edition "Origin Of Species." "I can entertain no doubt, after the most deliberate study and dispassionate judgment of which I am capable, that the view which most naturalists entertain, and which I formerly entertained—namely, that each species has been independently created—is erroneous. I am fully convinced that species are not immutable" (p.6). "We see this in the plainest manner by the fact that all the most eminent palæontologists, namely Cuvier, Owen, Agassiz, Barrande, Falconer, E. Forbes, &c., and all our greatest geologists, as Lyell, Murchison, Sedgwick, &c., have unanimously, often vehemently, maintained the immutability of species" (p.310). Where did Timmy obtain the idea that science, before Darwin, accepted species mutability? Since the issue is BASIC, Timaeus is not nearly as knowledgeable as he claims to be. Are we to believe he is not well versed in Darwin's "Origin Of Species"? Apparently not. RM (Old Earth, Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist)Ray Martinez
September 10, 2012
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Gregory #52: "Timaeus is a product of the Discovery Institute, who are, in essence, Evolutionists in sheep’s clothing (Ray Martinez).” While I agree that Timaeus appears to be highly moulded and deeply influenced by the Discovery Institute and its Fellows, I’ve never before heard the claim of such Fellows being “Evolutionists in sheep’s clothing.” That’s quite a statement, Ray Martinez! Yes, it is. Go to YouTube and listen to Dembski on the Jon Stewart Show (the clip is relatively short): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGai8LE622A Darwinist Edward Larson speaks first and he, in essence, says evolution is the core concept in biology. Dembski does not protest, but indicates agreement. A genuine ANTI-evolutionist would have said something against. He gives the distinct impression that he too accepts this core Darwinian concept to exist in nature. Moreover, in "Darwin On Trial" by Phillip Johnson he says almost everyone accepts species mutability. His context, in my estimation, includes himself and his good friend William Dembski (I do not have a page number at hand). And in "Intelligent Design" (1999) Dembski actually argues that Darwinian evolution is agnostic (I do not have a page number at hand). Why would Dembski take the time to argue accepted evolution to be agnostic? Well, if you aint naive, it is because he accepts evolution (species mutability). Evolution is not agnostic, if that were true then Richard Dawkins and all other Atheists are incredibly stupid! Dembski accepts evolution (species mutability). The fact that you didn't know supports my claim that he is an Evolutionist in sheep's clothing, conducting the same business as Ken Miller but on the "opposite side of the street." RM (Old Earth, Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist)Ray Martinez
September 10, 2012
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Gregory wrote: "ID is not a suitable alternative to evolution." Exactly! ID is an alternative to "chance," not "evolution." Ray, however, thinks that ID should be an alternative to "evolution," and in fact that it should be a *creationist* alternative, and that is why he is so angry with those ID proponents who either endorse evolution (Behe, Denton) or allow that some forms of evolution could be compatible with ID (Dembski, Meyer). Ray thinks that evolution, in any form at all, by any mechanism whatsoever, or even guided directly by divine action, is anti-Christian. And Ray's wrong. As for Ray's characterization of the Discovery Institute as a group of closet evolutionists, the ludicrousness of that is shown by enumerating the positions of several of the more prominent fellows and staff members: Nelson -- YEC; Dembski, Meyer -- OEC; Wells, Hunter, Luskin -- all either YEC or OEC Ray can't be bothered by such trivialities as "research," which is why he constantly makes factually erroneous statements. He just vents his spleen on all forms of Christianity that don't match his own narrow literalism. From his point of view, if the ID folks aren't narrow 6-day literalists, they are as spiritually lost as Richard Dawkins, so there is no need to pay attention to any of the nuances in their discussions. In Ray's religious world, everyone who is not with him is against him. Regarding Denton, he is certainly not a "vitalist" in any historically recognizable usage of that term. On another point, I said that the name "refers to," not "is," the explanation for the process. As for the list of types of evolution, I never claimed they were all in common usage. Some of them, as far as I know, I coined myself, to enrich by examples (for Ray's benefit) the general naming principle involved in the phrase "Darwinian evolution." But I have many times seen some of these forms in the history of science literature, especially "Lamarckian evolution" and "Bergsonian evolution." And while the phrase "Dentonian evolution" has probably not been used in any professional literature, "Dentonian evolution" is faster to write than "Denton's theory of evolution" -- and quite intelligible, on the model of "Darwinian evolution." So there is no terminological problem, to anyone who is reading contextually and with a view to understanding what I am driving at, as opposed to someone who might prefer to derail the discussion of substance by pedantic objections regarding language. I suspect, however, that Ray's reaction will be not to cavil over terminology, but simply to ignore everything I wrote, so I probably wasted my time in even trying to produce a layman's summary for him. Hope springs eternal for those who love to teach, but sometimes hopes are unrealistic.Timaeus
September 10, 2012
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Gregory - you've missed one important factor out. And that is, most people recognise that quoting what someone says does not obligate one to agree with them. "Adolph Hitler wrote that the Jews were inferior long before the Holocaust" is not the same as saying "I agree with Hitler's anti-semitism." Why on earth should it be, any more than Ray's quoting from Darwin is inappropriate because he's a Creationist? Regarding your second paragraph, what I actually want is an adequate explanation of living things that does not deny the Christian revelation of God's creative nature. That's not incompatible with his using "natural" efficient causes in an evolutionary process, even for the whole of evolution. But evolution as currently formulated (a) is inadequate as a series of efficient causes b) is highly open to doubt as a truthful explanation for what it does try to explain (c) is associated (even in theistic circles) with false views both of God's detailed concern for his creatures and of his power to implement it and (d) tries to explain the spiritual in naturalistic terms. Lamarckism, actually, would provide quite a reasonable series of efficient causes, including (unlike Darwin's theory) an explanation of life's origins. And that's not surprising as he was a Deist. Unfortunately his theory is shot full with errors - being theologically orthodox but untrue is no great advantage.Jon Garvey
September 10, 2012
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Jon, You quote of Lamarck in defense of 'mutability' is fine as far as that goes. At the same time, however, perhaps you don't realise that you shot your own foot in the process? "nature led them little by little" That sounds pretty naturalistic, Jon. You're a supernaturalistic, bring-in-theology kind of guy who wants 'intervention,' 'governance,' 'guidance,' 'steering,' etc. (in your own language) to be 'detectable' (in IDs language) in biological evolution. The quotation above would be better used by Aristotelian-Thomist anti-IDists than for ID with its 'intelligent causes should become part of natural sciences,' strategy. 'Environmental conditions' sounds a lot like 'natural selection' and not much like 'intelligent agent selection.'Gregory
September 10, 2012
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"Timaeus is a product of the Discovery Institute, who are, in essence, Evolutionists in sheep’s clothing." While I agree that Timaeus appears to be highly moulded and deeply influenced by the Discovery Institute and its Fellows, I've never before heard the claim of such Fellows being "Evolutionists in sheep's clothing." That's quite a statement, Ray Martinez! Now, as it turns out, I'm among a new generation of 'anti-evolutionists.' In so far as there are 'evolutionists' at DI, I would gladly debate them. Dembski, for example, is an 'evolutionist' in his defense of 'technological evolution.' Iow, he supports the exaggeration of 'evolution' into the realm of human-made things. I would quickly tie Dembski's tongue in a knot quite easily given his abuse of TRIZ to promote 'technological evolution,' if ever Dembski wanted to debate this. But simply accepting biological evolution, including its strengths and weaknesses as a scientific theory, does not make one an 'evolutionist.' Likewise, accepting 'Darwinian evolution,' even with its theoretical limits taken into account, does not make one a 'Darwinist,' although this is a distinction many don't wish to carefully make. Tying 'Darwinism' with 'mechanism' contains only a sliver of accuracy; but doing this doesn't make on into an 'evolutionist'. "There are thus many versions of “evolution” — Darwinian evolution, neo-Darwinian evolution, Lamarckian evolution, Bergsonian evolution, Dentonian evolution, Margulisian evolution, Shapironian evolution, etc. In each case, “evolution” refers to the process, and the proper adjective in front of the noun refers to the *explanation* for the process." Right, and 'Intelligent Design' refers to the origin/Origin. That ID has nothing to do with 'the process' shows why ID is not a suitable alternative to evolution. p.s. a name is not an "explanation for the process". But noteably, not included was Johnsonian evolution, Behean evolution, Dembskian evolution, Meyerean evolution, Wellsian evolution, Nelsonian evolution, etc. *in* the IDM. Dentonian evolution, from Denton the vitalist seems to be the greatest case for promoting 'teaching the controversy' from a person that has allowed himself (temporarily) to be associated with ID. And the term 'Dentonian evolution' is used where exactly in professional biological literature?! Citation requested for 'Dentonian evolution,' in professional literature please.Gregory
September 10, 2012
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Ray Martinez/Timaeus Quote:
After having produced aquatic animals of all ranks and having caused extensive variations in them by the different environments provided by the waters, nature led them little by little to the habit of living in the air, first by the water's edge and afterwards on all the dry parts of the globe. These animals have in course of time been profoundly altered by such novel conditions; which so greatly influenced their habits and organs that the regular gradation which they should have exhibited in complexity of organisation is often scarcely recognisable. Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, Hydraéologie (1802)
I make that 57 years before 1859, a scientific man (the one who coined the term "biology"), describing mutable (and mutated) species. He's famous, too - I learned about him in school zoology 45 years ago. I give the point to Timaeus. It really does help ones case to get properly informed.Jon Garvey
September 10, 2012
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Ray Martinez: I already replied in full to your reference to Darwin, under Point 3 of my reply 48. Your level of reading comprehension is apparently insufficient for you to recognize that your point has been refuted. You said in your P.S. in 44 above that I should feel free to ask you "any question." I have a question: What is the highest level of formal education that you have completed?Timaeus
September 9, 2012
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Timaeus #48 is supposed to be a response to R. Martinez #44. General Audience: I urge you to read and compare messages #44 and #48: see the level of evasion and downright dishonesty by Timaeus (an Evolutionist). Tim heaps praise upon himself ("I'm so knowledgeable") yet he is ignorant of the 101 fact that species, before Darwin 1859, were considered immutable by scientific men (C. Darwin, "On The Origin" 1859:6, 310; London: John Murray). His entire "response" literally ignores and/or misrepresents everything that I said (please fact check and confirm for yourself). Why? Why didn't Timaeus take the time to quote me and respond like I did with him? Why didn't he answer my questions in a forthright manner (blockquote then response)? If truth is on his side why behave this way? Answer: Because he cannot refute even one thing that I said---that's why. This is why I am an anti-evolutionist-species immutabilist. Timaeus is a product of the Discovery Institute, who are, in essence, Evolutionists in sheep's clothing. RM (Old Earth Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist)Ray Martinez
September 9, 2012
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Ray Martinez: 1. I didn't provide you with page numbers, because I want you to get out of the habit of looking up proof-texts and into the habit of reading entire books, books written by people who know what they are talking about. I'm suggesting that you make the first book Gilson's. Once you read it, you will be embarrassed by the uninformed statements you have made above, and in earlier postings on this site. On almost every page of the book you will find information that corrects your errors, or explanations that improve your understanding. If you are truly interested in becoming informed on the history of evolutionary thought, rather than in just mouthing off based on hearsay, you will do this. 2. I already explained the difference between evolution and Darwinism. But I'll try putting it another way. "Evolution" refers to an alleged process by which all living forms have descended from a few original forms, perhaps even a single original form; "Darwinism" or "the Darwinian mechanism" offers an *explanation* of how that process could take place. It is like saying that "rain" is the downward motion of water droplets from the clouds, while "evaporation, cooling, condensation into clouds, and cloud breakup" are an *explanation* for why raindrops form and fall. The explanation and the process are not the same thing. Regarding evolution, you're equating the explanation and the process, without even realizing that you are doing it. There are thus many versions of "evolution" -- Darwinian evolution, neo-Darwinian evolution (the latter being the 1930s-1940s update of the former), Lamarckian evolution, Bergsonian evolution, Dentonian evolution, Margulisian evolution, Shapironian evolution, etc. In each case, "evolution" refers to the process, and the proper adjective in front of the noun refers to the *explanation* for the process. Not all versions of evolution are atheistic or materialistic. Not all of them are even naturalistic. Darwin's evolutionary theory was naturalistic. It was not inherently materialistic, because it did not deny the existence of a being outside of nature, i.e., God. But it was naturalistic because it argued that God did not involve himself in evolution, except through wholly natural causes. I'm not going to give you page references for any of this, any more than I would give you a page reference for "2+2=4" or "Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 14 hundred and 92." This is is basic knowledge that everyone well-versed in the field already knows. If you don't know it, that's your problem. And if you want to know it, do what I did: read Darwin's *Origin* in its entirety. Read his Autobiography and his Letters. Read Desmond and Moore's biography of Darwin. If you want to know more about the other types of evolution, get out the *Encyclopedia Britannica*, and look up Lamarck, Bergson, etc. For neo-Darwinism you can buy used editions of popular books by Mayr or Gaylord Simpson. For other versions of evolutionary theory, you can also buy Bergson's *Creative Evolution* cheaply on the internet; Shapiro's new book *Evolution* is relatively inexpensive as well; Lynn Margulis's ideas on evolution you will find summarized in her interview in Mazur's *Altenberg 16* book; Denton's view is in *Nature's Destiny*. Do some work. Until you read this sort of stuff and digest it, you're not competent to speak on these matters. 3. Your reference from Darwin is from the first edition of *The Origin of Species*. In almost all later editions he included a historical sketch which clearly indicates that others before him had spoken of transformation of species. He did not claim that the idea of transformation was an innovation of his. If you want a reference, here is one of innumerable ones that can be found on the first page of Google hits for "Darwin historical sketch edition": http://spot.colorado.edu/~friedmaw/Friedman_Lab/Friedman_Teaching_files/Sketch-minor.pdf "For well over a half century prior to the publication of the Origin of Species (1859), naturalists, theologians, horticulturalists, medical practitioners, poets, and philosophers had been advancing evolutionary concepts for the diversification of life through modification of species. Shortly after the initial publication of Origin of Species, Darwin felt the pressure to formally acknowledge his evolutionist predecessors. The first intellectual history of evolutionism, by Darwin himself, appeared in the first German edition and fourth printing of the first American edition of Origin in 1860; in 1861, Darwin’s “Historical Sketch” finally appeared in the third English edition of Origin." The fact that you are unaware of this difference between the editions of the Origin tells me that you are a novice when it comes to the study of Darwin. And the fact that you have continued to insist that Darwin was the first to come up with the idea of evolution tells me that you have no training in the history of ideas. 4. Most of your other comments are irrelevant. I didn't say that I knew that species were mutable, and I didn't say that I knew what the causes of such changes would be if species were mutable. I was defending neither evolution nor Darwinism. I was saying that your historical statements were incorrect and show your lack of scholarly training, plus a back-country stubbornness that prevents you from learning from people who do have such training. And I find this historical ignorance and this stubbornness embarrassing to ID, since critics of ID often associate ID with the opinions of untrained creationist ignoramuses, and try to tar ID with the same brush. Having you as an ally against the Darwinians effectively means that ID people have only one hand to fight the Darwinians with, as they have to use the other hand to cover your mouth so you can't utter scientific and historical nonsense, and this division of attention handicaps the anti-Darwinist cause. So please, either stop talking, or get an education. I doubt very much whether you have ever taken a university course in your entire life, or read a real academic book from cover to cover in your entire life. Now would be a good time to start. Sorry for my impatience, but this is not the first time you've wasted everyone's time here. I have no trouble with well-educated creationists -- there are a significant number of them in the ID camp, and they are assets. But uneducated creationists play right into the hands of the Darwinists, and they are liabilities. You're doing more harm than good, until you acquire more knowledge. That is the kindest way I can put it, for one with your track record of inflexible stubbornness.Timaeus
September 9, 2012
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PS: Let's try:
"The [Neo-] Darwinian theory of macro evolution is not meant to be accurate to what happened in the past. It is only meant as a narrative that suggests ways we can unify certain phenomena, providing a language we can use to suggest an imaginary past of origins useful for finding fossils etc and for tying them together in a coherent narrative. It is not now -- nor has it ever been -- meant to be grounded in the truth about the world and its actual origin."
You would never see such a disclaimer issued by the US NAS etc. That is, they do accept that scientific theories should seek to be accurate to reality. (Whether they SUCCEED is a different matter.) KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2012
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NR:
The English language is a truth bearer. We express a great many truths in English. Nevertheless we see the English language as neither true nor false. We apply assessments of truth to statements expressed in English. Similarly, we assess the truth of statements that are made under a scientific theory.
One distinction between a model and a theory is that the former is typically deliberately "simplified" and as such cannot be true. A good case in point is modelling a transistor as if it were made up of controlled generators, resistors, capacitors etc. Useful in design but known false. Scientific theories, in their claims and constructs when they are put on the table, must be seen as potentially true. That is the sense of truth bearers used. (The English language -- as a language -- does not purport to be a specific description or explanation of reality or how it works, though it enables us to discuss such in that language. To do that it does have words that refer to real things and speaks in terms of subjects acting on objects, but that has little to do with what something like Newton's theories of optics or gravitation and mechanics set out to be in the mid-late 1600's.) Being potentially true is an important criterion of a serious scientific theory, particularly when it first seeks to gain currency. Think here of Einstein's response to ever so many denunciations of his theory, and of the response when Eddington's eclipse observations showing gravitational lensing of a size compatible only with relativity were made in 1919. Scientific theories seek to be factually accurate and adequate (covering known and predicted facts -- empirically reliable and trustworthy), coherent and elegantly simple (neither an ad hoc patchwork nor simplistic). KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2012
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It's ok. After you've read enough of my posts you'll look for it automatically, even if it's not there explicitly. :) But then you'll be scratching your head, wondering if I am being serious. I employ a great deal of sarcasm. I also try to be humorous. But usually there's a nugget of truth in there somewhere, or a point to be made, even if it's not at first immediately evident.Mung
September 8, 2012
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Timaeus #39: I don’t work for the Discovery Institute. I’m a freelancer. I didn't say that you did. I said your thought reflects the thought of the Discovery Institute. Nor does Francis Smallwood, the person whose words you are criticizing. In fact, Francis Smallwood openly admits to *not* being an ID proponent, so why you would take his view as typical of the people here, or at Discovery, I have no idea. The problem, again, is that you are not listening. I know Smallwood is a Darwinist. I am criticizing Joshua, yourself and the D.I. mainly. As for your historical remarks, you continue to publically embarrass yourself when you make them. Have you ever set foot inside a library? And if not, how would you know what is 'uncontested among scholars'? Just the opposite is true: you have shown yourself ignorant in 101 matters. For example: There is, like I said, no dispute among scholars that species, before Darwin published, were held to be immutable by scientific men. I even provided a reference (Darwin 1859:6; London: Murray). You, on the other hand, have evaded while patting yourself on the back. Persons reading our exchanges might wonder, if you are indeed ignorant, why am I responding to such a person? I will get back to this point in a moment. As for references, I did provide one reference to cover several of the things that I said....[omit agree-with-me-or-you-are-ignorant remarks]....Let’s put this to the test. I’ve told you about Gilson’s book. Now, suppose you withhold all further comments on this site until you have read that book. Yes, you provided ONE "reference" for several assertions. You did not provide a proper reference with page numbers. And I offer your one "reference" as evidence that you are showing signs of ignorance since nobody would stake everything said on ONE incomplete reference. I have posted two messages in this thread (#24, #37). You have evaded my content. Anyone can fact check and confirm. I have taken the time to respond because I am interested in learning about your claims. I am interested because I believe your thought reflects Dembski's thought (and other fellows from the D.I.). This is why I am responding to a person who shows signs of being ignorant in 101 matters, like the undisputed fact that species were held to be immutable before 1859. That said, I would like to ask a few questions? The questions: 1. Where did you obtain the idea that species are mutable? I am asking you to name the scientist and publication that science points to as providing the evidence for species mutability (evolution). 2. How does mutability occur? I am asking you to name the publication(s) that show how evolution occurs, that is, the major publication(s) that science points to as showing them the causal agent. 3. Earlier you said Darwinism and evolution are not the same thing. What **exactly** is the difference? Your claim seems to imply that Darwinism is not about evolution. Please explain and support your answer with proper references. 4. How does the Biological Species Concept appear in nature; that is, I am asking you how new species appear in the wild? 5. If "Intelligent agency causes evolution," where did you obtain **this** idea? I am asking you to name the major publications that support your claim. I feel each question is squarely on topic and fair for persons who claim knowledge in the history of science. Thanks. RM (Old Earth, Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist) PS: Feel free to ask me any question. I will reply with proper references (as I have done in this topic).Ray Martinez
September 8, 2012
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