And ends by saying that childhood genetic engineering will probably bring an end to high achiever sports altogether:
In 2019 a team of European researchers from the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium measured the change in grip strength for trans people after a year of hormonal therapy. They had about 250 trans women and trans men each who participated in their study. So this isn’t a huge sample but decent.
They found that grip strength decreased in trans women by minus 1 point 8 kilogram but increased in trans men by 6 point 1 kilogram. In trans men, but not in trans women, the change in grip strength was associated with change in lean body mass. So it seems that hormonal therapy does more for trans men than for trans women.
Another team of researchers from Sweden followed 11 untrained trans women and 12 untrained trans men before and up to one year after gender-affirming hormonal therapy.
They found that in trans women thigh muscle volume decreased by 5 percent and quadriceps cross-sectional area decreased by 4 percent, but muscle density remained unchanged and they roughly maintained their strength levels. In trans men, on the other hand, thigh muscle volume increased by 15 percent; quadriceps cross-sectional area also increased by 15 percent, muscle density increased by 6 percent, and they saw increased strength levels. Again it seems that hormonal therapy does more for trans men than for trans women.
It’d be rather tedious to list all the papers, so let me just say that this finding has been reproduced numerous times.
Sabine Hossenfelder, “Trans athletes in women’s sports: Is this fair?” at BackRe(Action) (June 4, 2022)
The rest of Hossenfelder’s take feels like it is aimed at avoiding watching her career sail off a cliff.
Hmmm. It is interesting that recently, Dave Chappelle, Bill Marr, and Ricky Gervais, American comics, have been able to say pretty much what they want on transgender claims — not without provoking rage — but without getting Canceled.
No surgery can altar internal organs. Women’s internal organs are compressed, including lungs, to make room for growing babies. Those compressed internal organs give a disadvantage in competition requiring stamina.
I think the tide has turned on this issue.
On top of “Women’s internal organs are compressed,” we also find that “a full third of our genome is behaving very differently in men and women.”
As well, there is a marked difference found in how men and women’s brains are ‘wired’.
Moreover, Darwinists have no realistic clue how sex could have possibly evolved in the first place,
Verse:
I tend to agree. It is like any other fundamental change in society. Initially there tends to be hyperbolic, civilization-ending rhetoric on both sides of an issue, followed by a general acceptance with, where necessary, some limitations. We saw it with women’s rights, the civil rights movement, desegregation, inter-racial marriage, the acceptance of homosexuality. Later we saw it with same sex marriage, gay couples adopting and now with transgendered rights. In the end, it all works out and civilization is the better for it.
JHolo, so you are for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or you think that society would be better for it?
Your responses to people would make more sense if you read them for content rather than read into them what you want.
Jholo, so you are not talking about the topic of the thread but are talking about something else? i.e. “Sabine Hossenfelder Tackles Trans Women In Women’s Sports”
It is far more on topic than talking about Darwin and sexual selection in this OP. Besides, my comment was in response to Polistra’s comment. And to that it was 100% on topic.
So again, you are for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or you think that society would be better for it?
JH at 4,
Some things are ordered, some are not. You appear to be having difficulty with this. Men cannot marry men since they have no biological capacity to have children. A man cannot become a woman in a true sense. He has no ovaries. Also, the skeletal structure is different. Women have a pelvic tilt men do not have. By the way, I have an acquaintance who went through the process. Last I saw him, we continued a conversation we had had previously when he was male in appearance. His memories did not change.
Men should not compete in women’s sports, even though they may have some outward female characteristics.
If you are incapable of reading my comment at 4 for content, there is no point trying to discuss this with you.
As is the case for many opposite sex couples and most senior couples. Should they be denied marriage? How about opposite sex couples who have no intention of having children? There are reasons for marriage other than children. My children have long left the house, yet I am still married.
Have I said they should? Are you suffering from the same reading comprehension problem that BA77 is?
Opposite sex couples, by nature, are capable of having children. That’s why we preserve marriage for the infertile – in respect of the natural capacity.
The same it not true of same-sex couples. That’s the problem with the parallel you’re trying to make.
JH at 12,
My reading comprehension is fine. The current push to promote transgenderism needs to be fully addressed.
And, in time, it will be. As the past pushes to accept women’s rights, black rights, homosexual rights and the rights of same sex marriage have been. The fact that they may not be addressed to your satisfaction doesn’t mean that they haven’t been fully addressed.
Why won’t you answer the question(s)?
Are you for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or do you think that society would be better for it?
Personally, I think it is blatantly obvious that it is a great disservice to women and thus society would be worse for it..
BA 77 at 16,
Men are not women. I don’t think many people understand the process or how this came about. Around 1980, I came to work and noticed a posted notice that the hospital would begin performing “sexual reassignment surgery.” I sat down with two doctors who performed the procedures. They gave me a good understanding of what’s involved. One employee, a woman, had the procedure. Now wearing men’s clothes and having a mustache, there was no possibility of covering up the basic female bone structure.
Because I am not a trained monkey, required to do whatever you demand. If I thought that you were open to an honest discussion on the subject, I would answer.
“I am not a trained monkey”
But are you a hairless monkey? 🙂
https://tenor.com/view/now-thats-funny-laughing-gif-11094450
Bornagain77/16
I would support transgender women competing in sports against cisgender women as long as the levels of competition are structured so as to minimize the physiological advantages the trans women might have, rather like the way boxing is divided into weight divisions.
In don’t see how society could be harmed by it and if it encouraged greater toleration of diversity then society would benefit to that extent.
In what ways would it be a disservice to women?
“In what ways would it be a disservice to women?”
You yourself admitted it is currently a great disservice to women when you proposed ‘handicapping’ to alleviate the obvious unfairness of biological men competing against women in women’s sports..
Relatd/17
True, but so what?
Human sexuality has both physiological and psychological components. In the vast majority of cases the physiological and psychological are aligned. Individuals are physically male or female and content to be so. But in a small number of cases there appears to be a misalignment. Individuals who are physically one sex feel themselves to belong to the other sex. If sexual reassignment procedures can be offered, even though they ae not perfect, then why not? If it makes that individual more content with their lot in life, then why not? Who is harmed?
New York Times Reveals Painful Truths About “Sex Change” Surgery
Chu acknowledges that the surgery won’t actually “reassign” sex: “My body will regard the vagina as a wound.”
Chu acknowledges that “transitioning” may not make things better and could even make things worse.
We need to find better, more humane and effective, responses to people who experience dysphoria.,,,
,,, Cosmetic surgery and cross-sex hormones don’t change biological reality.
People who undergo sex-reassignment procedures do not become the opposite sex—they merely masculinize or feminize their outward appearance.
https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/new-york-times-reveals-painful-truths-about-sex-change-surgery
“In what ways would it be a disservice to women?”
What is a woman?
Vivid
Bornagain77/21
Are featherweight boxers being unfairly handicapped by only being matched against other fighters from that weight division rather than against middleweights or heavyweights against whom they would stand little chance? Isn’t the purpose to give all competitors at least a sporting chance of winning?
So ‘some’ biological men would have to be ‘handicapped’ from competing altogether? Like in track and field, and swimming, and etc..?
I don’t think you have thought this all the way through Seversky. which is par for the course for you.
JH;
Demanding that your comment be read for its content is an old stunt to evade revealing one’s opinion; Thackeray laughed it in the Victorian age. It is frequently found in marital rows where one party insists on it, as in ‘’I merely (simply, only, just, plainly, clearly) said…” while reserving the right to read the other’s comment for implications and innuendo.
Indeed, you refused to read BA at 5 for content, but insisted that you be so read.
@JH:
Same sex marriage, inter-racial marriage, acceptance of homosexuality and so on were policies that ENABLED and ENRICHED people and didn’t took anything away from others. On the other hand every trans woman in womens sports TAKES AWAY opportunities from women.
I suspect that there are some here who would disagree with you.
Not if the sport doesn’t involve the type of strength that the average man has in greater amount than the average woman.
I’m not demanding anything. You and KF, and everyone else, is free to read into my comment whatever they want. Just as I am free to ignore anyone who prefers to misrepresent my comments rather than make an attempt to understand them.
“Not if the sport doesn’t involve the type of strength that the average man has in greater amount than the average woman.”
So ‘some’ biological men would have to be ‘handicapped’ from competing in women’s sports altogether? Like in track and field, and swimming, and etc..?
And what sport would that be?
When a male decides to transition to a female he gives up all privileges to compete as the gender of choice against cis females. However, I would allow them to compete as long as their place doesn’t matter to anyone but themselves and their family. Meaning they do not get a trophy or ribbon.
So, billiards and darts? Curling?
The women’s national soccer team gets beat by high school boys. Just to show the huge disparity in physical talent between males and females
Let the women (adult human females) who actually play in the leagues decide democratically whether or not to allow penis-holders into the league.
Bornagain77/26
You are aware of the handicapping system in golf? Like the weight divisions in sports like boxing, it is intended as a measure to “level the playing-field” – to some extent – so that less capable players can compete with better players with a reasonable expectation of winning. Handicapping is also employed in some horse-racing events.
If transgender woman were to take part in female events then one approach might be to handicap them if their physical attributes give them an unfair advantage. In the 100m sprint, for example, a number of men have run under 10 secs while no female athlete has, as far as I know. In the unlikely event of a top-rank male sprinter changing sex and wanting to take part in female events, the athletics authorities might want to look at some sort of handicapping system to offset his/her innate physical advantage.
“You are aware of the handicapping system in golf?”
Is that in Women’s PGA or Men’s PGA that you are talking about? 🙂
“Like the weight divisions in sports like boxing, (?)”
So, apparently, you are for men beating up women as long as they in the same weight class?
Again, as usual, you have not thought this through Seversky.
But alas, your critical thinking skills pretty much went out the window when you rejected God and signed up for Darwinism.
JH
Your exact words were, “Your responses to people would make more sense if you read them for content rather than read into them what you want.”
That is emphatically demanding that you be read for content since you chose to additionally claim that the response was limited in sense.
The odds are not high that you will use this ploy again.
Bornagain77/37
What makes you think you wouldn’t see a woman beating up a man if they were evenly-matched?
I don’t particularly enjoy boxing or MMA but if there are men and women who want to take part in those sports then why shouldn’t they? I’m sure the experts in those sports could work out some form of weighting or handicapping that would allow transgender competitors to fight on roughly equal terms.
That’s just a tad ironic given that a theist is wasting their time exercising critical thinking skills since the dispensation of divine wisdom must always take precedence over puny human rationalizations.
I don’t know why you keep trotting out Lewis and Pearcey. The arguments I those passages are quite easily rebutted.
“What makes you think you wouldn’t see a woman beating up a man (of the same weight class)”
As referenced, “Skeletal muscle mass”
“The argument, (from reason is), quite easily rebutted.”
Well golly gee whiz, have at it Seversky. Remember, according to your Darwinian worldview, you are not allowed to use free wil.
No such thing as a “trans-gender woman”
There are men (penis-holders) pretending to be women.
Woman = adult human female
Resist perverting the language.
Seversky
Experts could say that trans-women are not really women, but they’ve rejected that proposal. Since there has not been a need for handicapping in women’s sports up until now, the addition of transgender women – which is not adding anything at all since they’re supposedly just women competing in women’s sports – would not require any handicapping.
To insist on it is to insist that trans-women are not what they claim to be. And the prominent voices in our culture do not want that.
If there’s a need for handicapping, then trans-women should compete with men since they cannot compete with women without altering the sport.
Paxx re 41
Spot on!
BTW still waiting on Seversky and Jholo to answer my question “what is a woman”?
Furthermore if a woman is a man who thinks he is a woman why are they arguing for discrimination against women?
Honestly their arguments are insane but then again post modernism is insane. They are fabulists who believe in magic realism which is in a nutshell what post modernism is.
Vivid
No, I claimed that the response was based on the commenters childish inability, or refusal, to read my comment for what was written. Preferring to misrepresent my comment because he does not agree with things I have said in the past.
SA at 42, that was well put.
This is what Sev is proposing, same weight class, so sick.
https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight
Vivid
And since there was not a need for politicians and governments to consider women’s and blacks’ opinions before they were given the vote….
per Vivid,
SA
“Experts could say that trans-women are not really women”
What experts do we need to hear from to know that a man is not a woman?
Vivid
JH
When blacks and women were given the vote, we didn’t say “let’s handicap the elections to make it fair since we have those people in it now”.
If trans-women are women then there’s no need to segregate them. Or do you think that blacks are “a different kind of human being”?
No such thing as a “trans gender” woman
Resist the perversion of language.
“What makes you think you wouldn’t see a woman beating up a man”
LOL Sev just gave the store away!
Vivid
vividbleau,
Everyone knows, including the leftbot commenters here, that a woman is an adult human female.
All we can really do is laugh at their stupidity.
Paxx
“No such thing as a “trans gender” woman”
I have been on that particular band wagon for over a year. I will not use that term and I would encourage all those that are pro women to stop using it as well. Call it what it is, a man who thinks he is a women.
“Resist the perversion of language.”
Correct those that pervert and control language control thought. Once you adopt the trans language you have already lost the argument because you are affirming the existence of the very thing you are arguing against , there is not a trans anything , only men who think they are a woman and vice versa.
Vivid
JH.
“Besides, my comment was in response to Polistra’s comment. ”
It does not appear so from the record. The admonition to read for content was directly in response to BA and was addressed specifically to him.
It didn’t work, you won’t repeat your demand to read for content. It’s over.
Show me a nine sided hexagon
JHolo: “women’s and blacks’ opinions before they were given the vote”
It’s adorable that JHolo has to resort to issues that were resolved 60+ years ago.
Hey, JHolo, welcome to 2022. Hehe.
Most women don’t want penises in non-penis safe spaces.
Liberated women have the right to enforce that.
God bless liberated women and their right to reject men in womens’ spaces.
My mistake. It was BA77. My apologies to Polistra.
I didn’t think it would work. But I did have hope that the individual in question would start reading for content.
Are you sure this shouldn’t be directed towards KF? He constantly uses historical references to support his arguments.
Transgendered have been using womens’ bathrooms for as long as there have been transgendered women. And I am not aware of any untoward events resulting from this. However, there are numerous cases of transgendered being assaulted in men’s bathrooms.
JH at 59,
The “assault” dodge? There are people who think they are the opposite sex, that’s it. The use of inaccurate words does not create a “new” reality.
To understand the stupidity of the current US government, they have decorated their consulate in Istanbul with rainbow flags. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the concept, this is incredibly offensive to a Muslim nation, even one as fairly docile as Turkey.
They have moved their consulate to the outskirts of Istanbul and it is like a fortress just in case some irate people get offended.
A Man Reviews “What Is a Woman?” (Matt Walsh) – video – recently uploaded
https://youtu.be/_8w2ebclQn8?t=301
Matt Walsh Revisits His What Is A Woman Interview With Dr. Forcier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDB8wU73NA
JH,
This just caught my eye (as I think Me Hossenfelder is worth noticing], this is not a thread I have said anything of consequence in:
Of course, immediately, confession by projection to the other.
Where, I did not ask that, it was BA77.
What I will say, to go to the heart of extreme nominalism and the associated setting to zero yet again, is: kindly, show me a nine sided hexagon.
KF
Jerry, that’s like the signature I once saw on an official document, a territorial marker. KF