Sabine Hossenfelder tackles trans women in women’s sports

_{Denyse O'Leary

June 4, 2022

Biology, Culture, Intelligent Design}

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And ends by saying that childhood genetic engineering will probably bring an end to high achiever sports altogether:

In 2019 a team of European researchers from the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium measured the change in grip strength for trans people after a year of hormonal therapy. They had about 250 trans women and trans men each who participated in their study. So this isn’t a huge sample but decent.
They found that grip strength decreased in trans women by minus 1 point 8 kilogram but increased in trans men by 6 point 1 kilogram. In trans men, but not in trans women, the change in grip strength was associated with change in lean body mass. So it seems that hormonal therapy does more for trans men than for trans women.
Another team of researchers from Sweden followed 11 untrained trans women and 12 untrained trans men before and up to one year after gender-affirming hormonal therapy.
They found that in trans women thigh muscle volume decreased by 5 percent and quadriceps cross-sectional area decreased by 4 percent, but muscle density remained unchanged and they roughly maintained their strength levels. In trans men, on the other hand, thigh muscle volume increased by 15 percent; quadriceps cross-sectional area also increased by 15 percent, muscle density increased by 6 percent, and they saw increased strength levels. Again it seems that hormonal therapy does more for trans men than for trans women.
It’d be rather tedious to list all the papers, so let me just say that this finding has been reproduced numerous times.
Sabine Hossenfelder, “Trans athletes in women’s sports: Is this fair?” at BackRe(Action) (June 4, 2022)

The rest of Hossenfelder’s take feels like it is aimed at avoiding watching her career sail off a cliff.

Hmmm. It is interesting that recently, Dave Chappelle, Bill Marr, and Ricky Gervais, American comics, have been able to say pretty much what they want on transgender claims — not without provoking rage — but without getting Canceled.

Comments

Jerry, that's like the signature I once saw on an official document, a territorial marker. KFkairosfocus_{June 10, 2022
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JH, This just caught my eye (as I think Me Hossenfelder is worth noticing], this is not a thread I have said anything of consequence in:
18 JHolo June 5, 2022 at 2:45 pm KF: Why won’t you answer the question(s)? Because I am not a trained monkey, required to do whatever you demand. If I thought that you were open to an honest discussion on the subject, I would answer.
Of course, immediately, confession by projection to the other. Where, I did not ask that, it was BA77. What I will say, to go to the heart of extreme nominalism and the associated setting to zero yet again, is: kindly, show me a nine sided hexagon. KFkairosfocus_{June 10, 2022
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Matt Walsh Revisits His What Is A Woman Interview With Dr. Forcier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDB8wU73NAbornagain77_{June 7, 2022
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A Man Reviews "What Is a Woman?" (Matt Walsh) - video - recently uploaded https://youtu.be/_8w2ebclQn8?t=301bornagain77_{June 7, 2022
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To understand the stupidity of the current US government, they have decorated their consulate in Istanbul with rainbow flags. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the concept, this is incredibly offensive to a Muslim nation, even one as fairly docile as Turkey. They have moved their consulate to the outskirts of Istanbul and it is like a fortress just in case some irate people get offended.jerry_{June 7, 2022
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JH at 59, The "assault" dodge? There are people who think they are the opposite sex, that's it. The use of inaccurate words does not create a "new" reality.relatd_{June 7, 2022
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Paxx: It’s adorable that JHolo has to resort to issues that were resolved 60+ years ago.
Are you sure this shouldn’t be directed towards KF? He constantly uses historical references to support his arguments.
Most women don’t want penises in non-penis safe spaces.
Transgendered have been using womens’ bathrooms for as long as there have been transgendered women. And I am not aware of any untoward events resulting from this. However, there are numerous cases of transgendered being assaulted in men’s bathrooms.JHolo_{June 7, 2022
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Belfast: It does not appear so from the record. The admonition to read for content was directly in response to BA and was addressed specifically to him.
My mistake. It was BA77. My apologies to Polistra.
It didn’t work, you won’t repeat your demand to read for content. It’s over.
I didn’t think it would work. But I did have hope that the individual in question would start reading for content.JHolo_{June 7, 2022
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JHolo: "women’s and blacks’ opinions before they were given the vote" It's adorable that JHolo has to resort to issues that were resolved 60+ years ago. Hey, JHolo, welcome to 2022. Hehe. Most women don't want penises in non-penis safe spaces. Liberated women have the right to enforce that. God bless liberated women and their right to reject men in womens' spaces.Paxx_{June 7, 2022
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Show me a nine sided hexagonkairosfocus_{June 7, 2022
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JH. “Besides, my comment was in response to Polistra’s comment. ” It does not appear so from the record. The admonition to read for content was directly in response to BA and was addressed specifically to him. It didn’t work, you won’t repeat your demand to read for content. It’s over.Belfast_{June 6, 2022
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Paxx “No such thing as a “trans gender” woman” I have been on that particular band wagon for over a year. I will not use that term and I would encourage all those that are pro women to stop using it as well. Call it what it is, a man who thinks he is a women. “Resist the perversion of language.” Correct those that pervert and control language control thought. Once you adopt the trans language you have already lost the argument because you are affirming the existence of the very thing you are arguing against , there is not a trans anything , only men who think they are a woman and vice versa. Vividvividbleau_{June 6, 2022
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vividbleau, Everyone knows, including the leftbot commenters here, that a woman is an adult human female. All we can really do is laugh at their stupidity.Paxx_{June 6, 2022
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“What makes you think you wouldn’t see a woman beating up a man” LOL Sev just gave the store away! Vividvividbleau_{June 6, 2022
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No such thing as a "trans gender" woman Resist the perversion of language.Paxx_{June 6, 2022
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JH
And since there was not a need for politicians and governments to consider women’s and blacks’ opinions before they were given the vote….
When blacks and women were given the vote, we didn't say "let's handicap the elections to make it fair since we have those people in it now". If trans-women are women then there's no need to segregate them. Or do you think that blacks are "a different kind of human being"?Silver Asiatic_{June 6, 2022
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SA “Experts could say that trans-women are not really women” What experts do we need to hear from to know that a man is not a woman? Vividvividbleau_{June 6, 2022
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per Vivid,
Brents received seven staples to her head, and also suffered a concussion. She was overpowered by Fox to an extent that even the orbital bone inside her skull was fractured.,,, Even though she received a green light from Florida's athletic commission that allowed her to compete in women's MMA, several experts and her fellow competitors opposed her being granted a fighting license.,,, “I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch," Brents told Whoa TV. https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight
bornagain77_{June 6, 2022
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SA: Since there has not been a need for handicapping in women’s sports up until now, the addition of transgender women – which is not adding anything at all since they’re supposedly just women competing in women’s sports – would not require any handicapping.
And since there was not a need for politicians and governments to consider women’s and blacks’ opinions before they were given the vote….JHolo_{June 6, 2022
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This is what Sev is proposing, same weight class, so sick. https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight Vividvividbleau_{June 6, 2022
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SA at 42, that was well put.bornagain77_{June 6, 2022
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Belfast: That is emphatically demanding that you be read for content since you chose to additionally claim that the response was limited in sense.
No, I claimed that the response was based on the commenters childish inability, or refusal, to read my comment for what was written. Preferring to misrepresent my comment because he does not agree with things I have said in the past.JHolo_{June 6, 2022
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Paxx re 41 Spot on! BTW still waiting on Seversky and Jholo to answer my question “what is a woman”? Furthermore if a woman is a man who thinks he is a woman why are they arguing for discrimination against women? Honestly their arguments are insane but then again post modernism is insane. They are fabulists who believe in magic realism which is in a nutshell what post modernism is. Vividvividbleau_{June 6, 2022
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Seversky
I’m sure the experts in those sports could work out some form of weighting or handicapping that would allow transgender competitors to fight on roughly equal terms.
Experts could say that trans-women are not really women, but they've rejected that proposal. Since there has not been a need for handicapping in women's sports up until now, the addition of transgender women - which is not adding anything at all since they're supposedly just women competing in women's sports - would not require any handicapping. To insist on it is to insist that trans-women are not what they claim to be. And the prominent voices in our culture do not want that. If there's a need for handicapping, then trans-women should compete with men since they cannot compete with women without altering the sport.Silver Asiatic_{June 6, 2022
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No such thing as a "trans-gender woman" There are men (penis-holders) pretending to be women. Woman = adult human female Resist perverting the language.Paxx_{June 6, 2022
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"What makes you think you wouldn’t see a woman beating up a man (of the same weight class)" As referenced, "Skeletal muscle mass" "The argument, (from reason is), quite easily rebutted." Well golly gee whiz, have at it Seversky. Remember, according to your Darwinian worldview, you are not allowed to use free wil.
The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It: Sam Harris’s Free Will Martin Cothran November 9, 2012 There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state — including their position on this issue — is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn’t logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. https://evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre/ Several textbooks on traditional logic by Martin Cothran https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Cothran/e/B00J249LUA/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1
bornagain77_{June 6, 2022
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Bornagain77/37
So, apparently, you are for men beating up women as long as they in the same weight class?
What makes you think you wouldn't see a woman beating up a man if they were evenly-matched? I don't particularly enjoy boxing or MMA but if there are men and women who want to take part in those sports then why shouldn't they? I'm sure the experts in those sports could work out some form of weighting or handicapping that would allow transgender competitors to fight on roughly equal terms.
But alas, your critical thinking skills pretty much went out the window when you rejected God and signed up for Darwinism.
That's just a tad ironic given that a theist is wasting their time exercising critical thinking skills since the dispensation of divine wisdom must always take precedence over puny human rationalizations. I don't know why you keep trotting out Lewis and Pearcey. The arguments I those passages are quite easily rebutted.Seversky_{June 6, 2022
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JH Your exact words were, “Your responses to people would make more sense if you read them for content rather than read into them what you want.” That is emphatically demanding that you be read for content since you chose to additionally claim that the response was limited in sense. The odds are not high that you will use this ploy again.Belfast_{June 6, 2022
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"You are aware of the handicapping system in golf?" Is that in Women's PGA or Men's PGA that you are talking about? :) "Like the weight divisions in sports like boxing, (?)" So, apparently, you are for men beating up women as long as they in the same weight class?
Skeletal muscle mass and distribution in 468 men and women aged 18–88 yr - 2000 Excerpt: Gender- and age-specific mean values for SM mass and distribution are shown in Table 1. The men had significantly (P < 0.001) more SM in comparison to the women in both absolute terms (Fig.1) and relative to body mass (Table 1). The men had significantly (P < 0.001) more SM in both the upper and lower body (Table 1). These differences remained significant (P < 0.001) after controlling for height and body mass. In comparison to women, men had a significantly (P < 0.01) greater percentage of total SM mass in the upper body and a lower percentage of total SM mass in the lower body (Fig. 1). https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jappl.2000.89.1.81
Again, as usual, you have not thought this through Seversky. But alas, your critical thinking skills pretty much went out the window when you rejected God and signed up for Darwinism.
“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” - C.S. Lewis - (aka the Argument from Reason) Atheism Cannot Justify Reason and Truth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaqmGGOZbeY Why Evolutionary Theory Cannot Survive Itself Nancy Pearcey – March 8, 2015 Excerpt: An example of self-referential absurdity is a theory called evolutionary epistemology, a naturalistic approach that applies evolution to the process of knowing. The theory proposes that the human mind is a product of natural selection. The implication is that the ideas in our minds were selected for their survival value, not for their truth-value. But what if we apply that theory to itself? Then it, too, was selected for survival, not truth — which discredits its own claim to truth. Evolutionary epistemology commits suicide.,,, Applied consistently, Darwinism undercuts not only itself but also the entire scientific enterprise. Kenan Malik, a writer trained in neurobiology, writes, “If our cognitive capacities were simply evolved dispositions, there would be no way of knowing which of these capacities lead to true beliefs and which to false ones.” Thus “to view humans as little more than sophisticated animals …undermines confidence in the scientific method.”,,, Of course, the atheist pursuing his research has no choice but to rely on rationality, just as everyone else does. The point is that he has no philosophical basis for doing so. Only those who affirm a rational Creator have a basis for trusting human rationality. https://evolutionnews.org/2015/03/why_evolutionar/
bornagain77_{June 6, 2022
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Bornagain77/26
So ‘some’ biological men would have to be ‘handicapped’ from competing altogether? Like in track and field, and swimming, and etc..?
You are aware of the handicapping system in golf? Like the weight divisions in sports like boxing, it is intended as a measure to "level the playing-field" - to some extent - so that less capable players can compete with better players with a reasonable expectation of winning. Handicapping is also employed in some horse-racing events. If transgender woman were to take part in female events then one approach might be to handicap them if their physical attributes give them an unfair advantage. In the 100m sprint, for example, a number of men have run under 10 secs while no female athlete has, as far as I know. In the unlikely event of a top-rank male sprinter changing sex and wanting to take part in female events, the athletics authorities might want to look at some sort of handicapping system to offset his/her innate physical advantage.Seversky_{June 6, 2022
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