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The freedom/mind issue surfaces again

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First, a happy thanksgiving.

Then, while digesting turkey etc, here is something to ponder.

One of the underlying issues surrounding the debates over the design inference is the question of responsible, rational freedom as a key facet of intelligent action, as opposed to blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. It has surfaced again, e.g. the WD400 thread.

Some time back, this is part of how I posed the issue, emphasising the difference between self-aware responsible freedom and blindly mechanical causal chains used in computing:

self_aware_or_not

Even if deluded about circumstances a self-aware being is just that, self-evidently, incorrigibly self-aware. And, a key facet of that self awareness is of responsible, rational freedom. Without which we cannot choose to follow and accept a rational case, we would just be mechanically grinding out our programming or and/or hard wiring.

Like, say, a full adder circuit:

1_bitFull-Adder-Circuit

Wire it right, designate the correct voltages as 1 and 0, and the outputs will add one bit with carry in and out. Indeed, more consistently correctly than we do.

Mis-wire, and it won’t, just as if the voltage-state assignments are wrong. But the circuits neither know nor care that they are performing arithmetic, they simply respond to inputs per the mechanical performance of the given circuits.

That is the context of my comment at 79 in the thread:

Z, 73:

mohammadnursyamsu: All current programs on computers work in a forced way, there is no freedom in it, the flexibility does not increase the freedom one bit.

[Z:] All you have done is introduce yet another term, “freedom”, which is not well-defined in this context.

Actually, not.

Absent responsible, rational freedom — exactly what a priori evolutionary materialist scientism cannot account for — you could not actually compose comment 73 above.

In short, freedom is always there once the mind is brought to bear, and without it we cannot be rationally creative.

And per observation, computation is a blind, mechanical cause effect process imposed on suitably organised substrates by mind. In fact, a fair summary of decision node based processing is that coded algorithms reduced to machine code act on suitably coded inputs and stored data by means of a carefully designed and developed . . . troubleshooting in a multi-fault environment required . . . physical machine, to generate desired outputs. At least, once debugging is sufficiently complete. (Which is itself an extremely complex, highly intuitive, non algorithmic procedure critically dependent on creative, responsible, rational freedom. [Where, this crucial aspect tends to get overlooked in discussions of finished product programs and processing.])

There really is a wizard behind the curtain.

Freedom, responsible rational freedom is not to be dismissed as a vague, unnecessary and suspect addition to the discussion, it is the basis on which we can at all think, ground and accept conclusions on their merits instead of being a glorified full adder circuit.

Where, of course, inserting decision nodes amounts to this: set up some operation, which throws an intermediate result, a test condition. In turn, that feeds a flag bit in a flag register. On one alternative, go to chain A of onward instructions, on the other go to chain B. And this can be set up as a loop.

First, the classic 6800 MPU as an example:

MC6800_Processor_DiagramLet me add [Nov 28] a more elaborate diagram of a generalised microprocessor and its peripheral components, noting that an adder is a key component of an Arithmetic and Logic Unit, ALU . . . laying out the mechanisms and machinery that, properly organised, will execute algorithms:

mpu_model

Next, the structured programming patterns that can implement any computing task:

The classic programming structures, which are able to carry out any algorithmic procedure
The classic programming structures, which are able to carry out any algorithmic procedure

It should be clear that no actual decisions are being made, only pre-programmed sequences of mechanical steps are taken based on the designer’s prior intent. (Of course one problem is that a computer will do exactly what it is programmed to, whether or not it makes sense.)

As a related point, trying to derive rational, contemplative self aware mindedness from computation is similar to trying to get North by heading due West.

Samuel Johnson, reportedly responding to the enthusiasm for mechanistic thinking in his day, is apt: All theory is against the freedom of the will; all experience for it. (Nor does this materially change if we inject chance processes, as such noise is no closer to being responsible and rational.)

If we are wise, we will go with the experience. END

Comments
Zachriel, When one uses an abacus to do math calculations, is the abacus doing the calculating? Of course not. It is only a tool that makes it easier for a rational being to do calculations. The most sophisticated computer on the planet can do just as much thoughtful calculating, or chess playing, or anything else that requires rationality as an abacus can do math calculations, which is to say computers never do anything thoughtful at all. A computer is just a very sophisticated tool very cleverly configured to manage electron flow in a predictable, programmatic way, but has no more awareness of what it is doing or how it is being used than an abacus does, or a can-opener, or a hammer. It is just a tool, albeit a very intricate one. It is only this extreme intricacy of the computer's Central Processing Unit and the esoteric nature of how that CPU and its instruction set takes advantage of the properties of election flow and resistance to electron flow that allows what it does to be confused with "thinking" by those who have never dealt with computers at the level of the CPU, its instruction set, logic gates and so on. It is just a tool no smarter than your nail clippers.harry
November 28, 2015
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Zachriel, how does the computer "choose" which opening to use?Mung
November 28, 2015
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Mapou, they do not know either. Load and store data structured as functional information, but that is not the same thing as knowledge: well warranted, credibly true and/or functionally reliable belief. Which last is an active state of agents. KFkairosfocus
November 28, 2015
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Zachriel, Machines do not play because they do not know what "play" means. Wake up, troll. On your toes.Mapou
November 28, 2015
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Dr Selensky, you have a point. KFkairosfocus
November 28, 2015
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Z, you snipped out of context. Note: "computers mechanically fetch, decode and execute machine code instructions from algorithms as designed and loaded by their designers and programmers." You snipped and substituted: "Computers fetch chess," then went on to antropomorphise. Computers do not try out moves etc, they are down at the machine code level and register transfer level churning away. Programmers arrange such so that on given inputs, processing and outputs, alternative chess moves in a situation will be weighed up on some scale and a best alternative per an externally given weighting function, will be exploited. Again and again, you are trying to reduce mind to meat and signal processing. But, the evidence is that the whole evolutionary materialist reductionism is self referentially absurd. KF PS: I forgot, They are not learning either, there is an algorithm for improving weightings and thus it is in the algorithm and where it comes from that we seek for intelligence. Nor am I impressed by objections along the lines of oh how dare you suggest machines cannot learn. We know what is going on and it is not an active process, the word is being used with equivocation in a context liable to lead to huge worldview errors, multiplied by refusal to acknowledge the self referential absurdity long since on the table.kairosfocus
November 28, 2015
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kairosfocus: computers mechanically fetch, decode and execute So computers fetch, decode and execute. Doesn't seem to work in a sentence, though. Computers fetch chess. Computers decode chess. Computers execute chess. Everyone else in the world uses the phrase computers play chess. Seems to work fine. Not sure why you are making it an issue. kairosfocus: They do not perceive the positions in a game, creatively and freely work out possible and likely chains of moves Actually, artificial neural nets work in much that fashion; trying moves then evaluating positions based on what they have learned from previous play.Zachriel
November 28, 2015
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Z, as we all know, computers mechanically fetch, decode and execute machine code instructions from algorithms as designed and loaded by their designers and programmers. They do not perceive the positions in a game, creatively and freely work out possible and likely chains of moves then determine oh, I am tutoring a kid so I give him a chance, let me play this move. As for drilling a rock, that is as you full well know but choose to keep on typing as though repetition changes patent facts, a purely mechanical process. But then evolutionary materialist scientism forces adherents and fellow travellers to try to reduce mind to blind chance and mechanical necessity regardless of the resulting self referential incoherence that shows such is necessarily false. For, it is a first truth that we are responsibly free enough to be rational and morally governed. Denied only on pain of absurdity. KFkairosfocus
November 28, 2015
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Box @45, Absolutely. Time is precious. It's not worth arguing. They will never acknowledge their intellectual bankruptcy.EugeneS
November 28, 2015
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Zachriel:
If computers don’t “play” chess, what transitive verb applies?
Computers don't play chess because they have no clue as to what playing means or what a board game is or that tic-tac-toe, checkers and Go are also board games. Chess playing computers are part of what is known as GOFAI, the bankrupt symbolic AI paradigm of the last century. As such, they suffer from the well-known symbol-grounding problem. IOW, it's just rule-based or brute-force search crap that has nothing to do with intelligence or consciousness. You're out of your league, Zachriel.Mapou
November 28, 2015
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If computers don’t “play” chess, what transitive verb applies?
Computers do as humans tell them to do.Virgil Cain
November 28, 2015
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kairosfocus, You still didn't answer. Steam drivers drive. So did John Henry. People play chess, and people play the radio. If computers don’t “play” chess, what transitive verb applies? Kasparov defeats chess-playing computer - Feb 17, 1996 http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kasparov-defeats-chess-playing-computerZachriel
November 28, 2015
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Z, you are equivocating and confusing whole categories. The FSCO/I in reels and drills shows their design. But drilling is a physical brute force process, making a move in a chess game is a matter of agent choice. A radio circuit being on so it detects, demods and amplifies then converts to sound a signal is again utterly different. Was it GP talking about word games? KFkairosfocus
November 28, 2015
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mohammadnursyamsu: For physics this creationist choosing means that objects consist of the laws of nature, rather than that they follow the laws of nature. As laws unto themselves objects compute their next state. How does the law of gravity choose? mohammadnursyamsu: The way computers simulate choosing is with the random function. No. While a random element can be added to a system, that isn't essential to decision-making. Rather, you have a complex interface to the world which the computer analyzes. Then the computer projects into the future, compares to its criteria for success, then reaches a decision. That's not so different from what people do, such as when they play chess.Zachriel
November 28, 2015
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@zachriel What you write is empty say so. The mathematics which describe choosing in the creationist sense is demonstrably completely different from the if-else logic of computers. For physics this creationist choosing means that objects consist of the laws of nature, rather than that they follow the laws of nature. As laws unto themselves objects compute their next state. So to say, one can model objects in nature mathematically, and such description requires a mathematical future part to each object (as well as a past), and this future part consists of definite possibilities. Just as we can accurately reflect the present state of an object, we can also accurately reflect the future of an object, albeit that it's future consists of alternative values. It is all demonstrably totally different from if-else logic, yet you insist it is the same..... The theory is then that the DNA system is like a little universe in it's own right, like human imagination is it's own world much. Still things in the physical world can be copied to a representation in imagination, as things can be copied from the physical world to the DNA world. And natural selection, as it is explained in terms of being forced, is then in principle knowable in advance, in this DNA world. Intelligent design can use natural selection to look into the future to see what organisms are fit, explaining how organisms are designed with a design principle of survival. Do you consider that all still the same as if else logic? .....we've been through it all. The way computers simulate choosing is with the random function. With the random function it looks like the computer can turn out one of several different ways in the moment autonomously. The if else function does not even simulate choosing, let alone that it is choosing.mohammadnursyamsu
November 28, 2015
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kairosfocus: a drilling is a mechanical brute force causal process. Actually, a steam driller is more complex than a fishing reel. Nonetheless, steam drillers drill, just like fishing reels reel. People play chess, and people play the radio. If computers don't "play" chess, what transitive verb applies? mohammadnursyamsu: Creationism / intelligent design theorists use the definition of choosing where the possibilities are in the future, and one of them is made the present, which is called a decision. Yes, that's how computers make decisions, too.Zachriel
November 28, 2015
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MNY, good point. KFkairosfocus
November 28, 2015
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F/N: I have added to the OP a further diagram that will help clarify the mechanism of computation. Instructions are fetched, decoded and executed at machine code, bits in registers level, executing a pattern of successive input, processing, output in the context of a purposeful plan, the algorithm. That is, the step by step sequence of actions that effects an overall outcome that is intended by its designer. At every stage, the register transfer and transformation operations are purely mechanical, taking significance from their designed purpose and the underlying code that gives them functional significance. For example, ASCII text, RGB etc colour codes, sound coding and floating point numbers are all externally imposed and processed by physical, mechanical instantiation of algebraic operations -- and yes there is an algebra of operations, transforming input into output functions that vary with time or space as key independent variables. Hence the crucial role of registers and an arithmetic and logic unit in a processor, controlled by a control unit and interfacing through address, data and control signal line buses. Thus also the importance of digital signal processing and the underlying mathematics of difference equations, the digital -- discrete state and/or discrete time -- analogue of differential equations. Where, such operations can be mechanically instantiated once relevant values, variables and functions can be suitably coded. Hence the emerging digital information, communication and control era. KFkairosfocus
November 28, 2015
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@zachriel It is largely facile to argue about definitions. Creationism / intelligent design theorists use the definition of choosing where the possibilities are in the future, and one of them is made the present, which is called a decision. It is the definition of choosing that is based on spontaneity, spirituality, agency,etc. That choosing is the fundamental mechanism of creation. And that has a lot of potential for explaining phenomena in nature. Not just explain human free will, obviously, but also the design of organisms. Because it means in the model you can have all organisms as potential organisms in the future, and choose intelligently among them, and the results of the model corresponds with what is found in the universe. In any case, when you criticize intelligent design theory, you cannot mangle it, cannot change the definitions of it. You can only evaluate intelligent design theory on it's own terms, using it's own definitions, and then see if it corresponds with how things work in the universe.mohammadnursyamsu
November 27, 2015
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Z, a drilling is a mechanical brute force causal process. So is computation. Rational, responsible, contemplative freedom (such as is required to play a game) is precisely not mechanical brute force in action and the attempt to reduce it to such ends in self-referential incoherence and undermining of mind, logic and reason. That so many are blind to that in our day speaks volumes and none of such to the good. KF PS: Just as a reminder, Haldane's caution:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
kairosfocus
November 27, 2015
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A few months ago Silver Asiatic wrote:
At some point, we run the risk of lowering ourselves to the level of our opponents. In other words, these are not worthy opponents and we might actually hurt ourselves by dignifying their mentality with continual responses. I admire you guys who can do this day after day — trying to bring the precious light of truth into the dark abyss of the materialist idiot-world. I really don’t think they deserve this kind of effort. (...) Arguments about A=A should be fairly short and end with mockery and banishment from civilized society. I discovered that my own mentality was diminished as a result of trying to argue with all of these defective intelligences. I’m just not cut out for that.
I have come to the same conclusion.Box
November 27, 2015
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kairosfocus: the computer is not an agent at all. It is not playing. A steam drill drills. Are you really claiming a machine can't be the subject of a verb?Zachriel
November 27, 2015
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Z, the computer is not an agent at all. It is not playing. The program loaded is being executed and carries out an interactive chess move algorithm so that the live player is matching wits with the designers of the program. KFkairosfocus
November 27, 2015
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kairosfocus: That’s like equating a Jack that swims with one that lifts a car with a flat. You didn't answer. You can play a game. You can play a radio. Which transitive verb would you prefer concerning a computer and chess?Zachriel
November 27, 2015
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KF,
DS, the point is to move to clear thinking. KF
Yes, and we do our best.daveS
November 27, 2015
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DS, the point is to move to clear thinking. KFkairosfocus
November 27, 2015
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Z, you are now equivocating, play. That's like equating a Jack that swims with one that lifts a car with a flat. KFkairosfocus
November 27, 2015
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KF,
DS, the problem is not whether you are personally explicitly committed to evolutionary materialist scientism, but the degree of influence it holds over you, sometimes even unconsciously. Even as an outspoken opponent to Marxism on my campus, its influences seeped in subtly in ways it took years to clean out again, including in visceral, intuitive responses that were simply soaked in. KF PS: It may be helpful for you to articulate your core worldview commitments and assess them on factual adequacy, logical and dynamical coherence, and explanatory power. At the very least to yourself.A good first point is to look at the root of reality and linked matters ontological and moral, applying to moral governance, community life and civilisational consequences.
Well, I think we all do that on a continual basis.daveS
November 27, 2015
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kairosfocus: if you refuse to understand the implications of agency, self-identity, intentionality, responsible freedom and rationality in I play a game, I cannot stop you. You can play a game, or play a radio. Which transitive verb would you prefer concerning a computer and chess? kairosfocus: Steam drills drilling are a physical, mechanical process involving utterly no responsible rational freedom. That's rather the point. The steam drill and John Henry both drilled.Zachriel
November 27, 2015
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Z, Steam drills drilling are a physical, mechanical process involving utterly no responsible rational freedom. John Henry, a man of an oppressed minority eking out a living for his family expresses an existential threat and as the song goes gave his life in fighting for himself and presumably his family in the face of a cruel robber baron calculus of efficiency. Do you not see where your lines of thought are headed? KFkairosfocus
November 27, 2015
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