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Agnostics vs. Atheists: Devil’s Delusion now available at Amazon

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Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?
Not even close.

Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here?
Not even close.

Have the sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life?
Not even close.

Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought?
Close enough.

Has rationalism in moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral?
Not close enough.

Has secularism in the terrible twentieth century been a force for good?
Not even close to being close.

Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion within the sciences?
Close enough.

Does anything in the sciences or in their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational?
Not even ballpark.

Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt?
Dead on.

Dr. Berlinski’s agnosticism and willingness to say, “I don’t know”, has a great appeal to someone like me. Anyone working in the hard sciences or engineering is accustomed to being made aware of his own fallibility on an hourly basis, and out of necessity one learns to become skeptical of many things. To hear someone as brilliant as Berlinski say, “I don’t know”, makes him more credible in my eyes. Dr. Berlinski echoes the skepticism and agnosticism that is at the heart of science, a skepticism which says, “I don’t know, but I want to learn more”.

What do we know for sure? Perhaps not much. I know for sure there is no hope or salvation in Charles Darwin. I know for sure Darwin found math repugnant and admitted he couldn’t even perform the early steps of high school algebra after considerable effort.

In contrast, Berlinski loves mathematics and physics, and in his book, Devil’s Delusion, he expresses much of his love of math and physics as he critiques the scientific pretensions of the atheists.

Berlinski defends his ideas by exploring the works of Maxwell, Einstein, Godel, Turing, Chomsky and other great minds. Dawkins in contrast appeals to Darwin. I would take Maxwell, Turing, and Godel over Darwin any day.

Here are some excerpts from Berlinski’s book:

the great German mathematician David Hilbert affirmed in an address given in 1930, “We must know, we will know.”

Shortly after Hilbert delivered his address, Kurt Godel demonstrated that mathematics was inherently incomplete. If science in the twentieth century has demonstrated anything, it is that there are limits to what we can know.
….
Darwin’s theory of evolution…may be grasped by anyone in an afternoon, and often is. A week suffices to make a man a specialist.

historian Richard Weikart, who in his admirable treatise, From Darwin to Hitler makes clear what anyone capable of reading the German sources already knew: A sinister current of influence ran form Darwin’s theory of evolution to Hitler’s policy of extermination.
….
Darwinian biologists are very often persuaded that there is a conspiracy to make them look foolish. In this they are correct.
….
Computer simulations of Darwinian evolution fail when they are honest and succeed only when they are not….What these computer experiment do reveal is a principle far more penetrating than any that Darwin ever offered: There is a sucker born every minute.

After reading the book, one is forced to conclude, “scientific” atheism is The Devil’s Delusion.

Comments
Hi Jerry. This is interesting. Nothing is really comming to mind of any hard evidence of Berlinski supporting ID. Though he was at the Smithsonian for the Priviledged Planet showing. That might indicate sympathy for teleogical view. Last night on Book TV he said that he suspected that there was something deeper to the cosmos and life than what is being put forth by materialist explanations. I think that Frost and I may be right, that Dr. Berlinski is a Platonist. I think his mentor Marcel Schutzenberger was. Perhaps someone could get Dr. Berlinski to comment on this thread?? :)DeepDesign
April 6, 2008
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Berlinski's daughter claims that her father is not an ID supporter. She pointed to a 2002 Commentary article as support for her position. In the article he points to the flaws in both ID and Darwin. He has seemed more of an anti-Darwin then a pro ID person. Does anyone have anything that points specifically to Berlinski supporting ID as opposed to just questioning Darwin's general theory.jerry
April 6, 2008
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I watched the Book TV showing of the event last night. Always impressed by Berlinski's speaking ability, his honesty and quick humour. To be honest, I thought he was going to deliver more of a defense of belief than he did. Rather, it was very honest and agnostic. Dr. Berlinski seemed less critical of Darwinian Evolution than in The Incorrigible Dr. Berlinski.DeepDesign
April 6, 2008
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"The language faculty: following the evidence", Fredric Fields, Journal of Creation, Vol 22(1) 2008, p 73
The fact that modern languages seem to have devolved from the relatively ancient predecessors caused considerable consternation among early historical linguists who had earnestly sought to establish a logical progression in their development, from simple to increasingly complex forms and strutures. August Schleicher (circa 1870) argued that languages were independent organisms with lives of their own that underwent a period of development (evolutionary progress) followed by one of decay, indicating the ebb and flow of evolution. However, the evidence shows language evolution as mostly a process of decay. ... [E]xtant languages have undergone a process of degression from their progenitors (e.g. gradual morphological simplification and consequent loss of syntactic variation of old Anglo-Saxon into present varieties of English)"
(emphasis in the original)Janice
April 6, 2008
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I believe he has a masters in theologyIDist
April 5, 2008
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Bill has them in Mathematics, Philosophy, and theology.
According to his CV (pdf) he only has two, in mathematics and philosophy.Bob O'H
April 5, 2008
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Deep, Yes we do, and all are appreciated to the limits of appreciation. Dembski and Behe's books meant a ton to me. Berlinski is in a class of his own. Mike Gene's book is a star as well. simply no doubt about it.Upright BiPed
April 5, 2008
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Bill has them in Mathematics, Philosophy, and theology. But I think he should get one is astrophysics and biology- thats only two more and then hed be an expert on virtually all things involved in the debate. Either way he is a brilliant man. His book TDI and NFL are really special books. So much so that D'souza had to purposly ignore them when trashing ID- because they are so intellectually well written. Dembski's books really are the backbone of the ID movement. Dembski is the father of ID IMOP.Frost122585
April 5, 2008
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You know, compared with the other guys, we have an enormous ammount of brain power on the ID side. I think Dr. Dembski has something like three PhDs.DeepDesign
April 5, 2008
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Hi Upright BiPed, thank you for sharing that with us. "Poor Dawkins. What a whipping." Haha. I know Dawkins won't debate, but could you imagine a Dembski or Berlinski debate with Dawkins.DeepDesign
April 5, 2008
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Dear Sal, 1. I don't think that it takes courage to post on a message board. 2. I'd carry this discussion to your own blog - if it was possible 3. in your post, you repeated five times that you know the concepts of Fourier transforms, series etc. I presume that my next critique would provoke at least ten similar statements, which I want to spare us (here?)...DiEb
April 5, 2008
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On page 57. If I may, can I take Hume's train and run it on a different track? "if we take into our hands any volume; perhaps any material explanation for the cause of the Universe, or the incarnation of life on Earth, or the basis of self-awareness in humanity, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: For it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion!" Yeah thats about does it. Of course the problem is, instead of wadding it up, tossing it, and starting over, materialists move the trash can instead.Upright BiPed
April 5, 2008
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Its very late now and I havent been able to stop reading The Devil's Delusion. It's been a great read - particularly the section called "Nothing But The Truth" in Chapter 4 "Horses Don't Fly", actually all the way through the next two chapters as well. Poor Hume, poor Dawkins. What a whipping. Hitchen's and Harris and well. Of course, I take no pleasure in any of it.Upright BiPed
April 5, 2008
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Good talking with you too- Dont know if you saw this http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=337&program=Discovery%20Institute&isEvent=true maybe he will be in your area.Frost122585
April 4, 2008
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Wish I could have met the good doctor myself. Maybe someday.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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By the way, good to meet you.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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Frost, I like what your wrote above. It is poignant and thoughful. Dr. Berlinski is a remarklable man.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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I dunno- I think he probably is a bit of a Platonist. He has a serious interest in mathematics. He only has a PHD in philosophy from Princeton but he has taught various classes on mathematics. Berlinski convinced them to let him teach a subject he wasn’t certified in- probably with his wit and eloquence. Language is considered mathematical by many philosophers and mathematics a language by many more. Statistics and information theory use probability to reach similar unifications. Berlinski may have been eluding to an even higher thought of about language and reality- but my thought had to do with empirical evolution defined by "change over time" and apparent complexity and specification. It was a true pleasure and an honor to speak with the good doctor-- I told him this as the last thing I said when I was leaving and shook his hand. He impressed me by saying "The pleasure was all mine." Not that I think I deserved a complement - but he struck me a as an impressive guy. Also I took my mother along- and she said to him at the end "you know, I noticed that you used the words Divine and Moral, in your speech, and I wanted you to know that I thought that was courageous because people seem to afraid to use those words anymore." Berlinski looked at her and with a short moment of obvious connection and enthusiasm he said "You are absolutely right!" And he said it in such a way that his tone changed. He usually sounds like he’s reading from a list in his mind, or picking the correct literary and philosophical terms to make his profound points. But the comment about “the divine and morality” I could tell struck him a little differently- and it brought out the regular person or guy within him-- I think that because Berlinski is a secular Jew, his interest in battling radical atheism is rooted in his respect and belief in morality and his appreciation for the higher planes of thought. That is why I think he wanted to and managed to write this book. I really had a wonderful time and even the guy from Panda's Thumb said that he enjoyed himself as well. I recommend these kind of events for anyone interested in theses topics.Frost122585
April 4, 2008
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Good point Atom. "linguistic ability does not evolve" This is what I was trying to point, perhaps unsuccesfully, with the nod to Chomsky's universal grammar.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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Maybe Dr. Berlinski merely believes that linguistic ability does not evolve or that there is no evidence for a gradual increase in symbolic ability?Atom
April 4, 2008
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Hi Frost 1.“there is no evidence that language evolves”. 2. “there is not a shred of evidence to the contrary.” It almost sounds like Dr. Berlinski takes a Platonic view of language. Ha, now I really want to read the book.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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DeepDesign at 49, Yeah we agree. I think its a reasonable theory. Berlinski however actually said to me that "there is not a shred of evidence to the contrary." I thought that was very interesting. I disagree based on intuition. I think there probably was some small evolution that manifested in not large genetic changes but significant linguistic progressions. Just a hunch.. but I certainly respect the good doctor's view. I still think it's a very interesting question as well- because as I said, the language in DNA - which can encode more efficiently than any super computer- it obviously natural- why couldn't it have been designed? Certainly there is no logical negation given the language scenario and moreover the inference is based upon strong empirical evidence and reasoning- even if it is in part lateral. Darwinists are fine with lateral thinking supports a speculative Darwinian fairy tail such as in hypothetical theories of lateral gene transfer- but whenever you apply it to intelligence they bust out the political guillotine.Frost122585
April 4, 2008
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mynym, i see what you are saying now.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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Today the other side compares everyone to Hitler-- Just Freudian projection (to them not me cause I dont buy Freud) because it is only their side that wants to limit free, open speech and education.Frost122585
April 4, 2008
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Hi Frost, I totally agree that language changes/develops over time. I was trying to reason what Berlinski meant by saying "there is no evidence that language evolves". Perhaps the vital core of language, which is innate to homo sapiens (perhaps the entire genus homo) remains constant.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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mynym, are you saying that John Kwok compared Philip Johnson (author of Darwin on Trial) with Adolph Hitler? This is the first I've heard of this. That is outrageous.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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Deep design, Well I think that language does evolve- although once again this is a deep intuition of mine that I feel very certain about- yet of course I have not studied the evidence pro or con. I think that David might be more right than wrong with the concept of the "syntactical manifold" basically staying the same. But surly language has evolved. People find new words for new ideas and objects that didn't exist in the past. This to me is intelligent guided evolution at the same time as natural guided evolution. My point was while all things including nature maybe ultimately be intelligently designed- logically even if all things are natural there still is intelligent evolution happening simultaneously as natural evolution. This no one could argue. Therefore, evolution even of a materialistic nature is inextricable interlinked with intelligence. There is no way around this that I can see. So actually the only way one can be a "ant-ID" scientist is to deny the possibility of TRANSCENDENCE. That is to deny that it is possible that intelligence could be the thing that kicks it all off or organizes things that we cannot find a designer for in the material itself. Logical, such a position is not. I am definitely a transcendentalist- and if you believe in a first cause you probably will find yourself in need of a transcendental property as well.Frost122585
April 4, 2008
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Here is the Book TV site for the book. http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9256&SectionName=&PlayMedia=NoDeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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Anyone want to make a bet how long before John Kwok....tears it apart? It would be ashame if anyone took him seriously when he thinks it reasonable to compare Philip Johnson to Adolf Hitler: "I find the notion of a Festschrift published in honor of Professor Johnson as absurd as a group of Neo-Nazis publishing one to commemorate Adolf Hitler and his hate-filled book "Mein Kampf" (I find this an apt comparison since Johnson and quite a few of his supporters have an ideological world view that is remarkably close to the likes of Adolf Hitler and Osama bin Laden.)." (From his Amazon review of Darwin's Nemesis)mynym
April 4, 2008
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Allen MacNeill, Thanks for the discussion in your linked article on all the sources of variation, and potentially many more yet to be discovered. One of the big things, as you point out, is the need for fecundity -- more offspring than is necessary for replacement. Throw aways, if you will. This brings up a frequently raised question that I am hoping you can shed light on. Fecundity, in terms of sheer numbers, and in terms of frequency, drops dramatically in more complex life forms, e.g., mammals. We won't even get into the reproduction of whales, for example. This is presumably because the offspring requires much greater time and protection to reach the self-sufficiency state. Also, the mother is afforded the opportunity for individual attention and teaching of the small number of offspring. Not to mention the demands of breastfeeding. However, in terms of phenological change, evolution had to perform some extremely heavy lifting to get to where we are, particularly in terms of mental abilities. And, needless to say, we barely have an inkling on how incredibly challenging it would be to "design" and build the human brain. The long and short of it is, how did evolution, with the hugely restricted fecundity factor, turn around and achieve its greatest triumph, with an undirected process? Say you and I line up with shotguns, blindfold ourselves, and begin shooting at a small target. We start with 1,000 units of tiny buckshot, that scatters. Of course we hit the target occassionally. Then the 1,000 units gets reduced to 10 buckshot. And yet, somehow, we actually increase our hits. This is where evolution takes us. Hmmmm. My final rambling question is, I view your amazing list of inheritable variation sources on the linked site. Admittedly I will not pretend to comprehend them all. And yet, only variations that accrue a significant change in capability for survival or reproduction will actually be selected out. In other words, we can vary our genes or phenotypes till the cows come home, and no big deal if we can't run faster or see better or reproduce more/better. Put it this way, babies bable all sorts of sounds (not to get back into the nature of language please), but until it results in a bottle or a diaper change, it ain't doing him or her any good. So, thanks for all the variation, but aren't we back to the same old conondrum -- how do we accomplish the number of benevolent undirected significant functional changes to get us to the finish line, without the malevolent changes dropping us to the pavement? Just wondering.Ekstasis
April 4, 2008
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