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L&FP, 48: [Former?] New Atheist Stefan Molyneaux and his “Universally Preferable Behavior” (2007) illustrate inescapably binding, intelligible and identifiable first duties of reason

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I ran across this work, and find an interesting discussion, starting with a fairly roundabout way to show what a first, undeniable principle or truth — branch on which we all must sit stuff — is like::

Given that every human action – including making philosophical statements – is chosen in preference to every other possible action, arguing that preferences do not exist requires a preference for arguing that preferences do not exist, which is a self-contradictory statement. [p. 33]

So, next, we have another roundabout way of summarising duties/oughts as universally prefer-ABLE behaviour:

The proposition before us is thus: can some preferences be objective, i.e. universal?

When I say that some preferences may be objective, I do not mean that all people follow these preferences at all times. If I were to argue that breathing is an objective preference, I could be easily countered by the example of those who commit suicide by hanging themselves. If I were to argue that eating is an objective preference, my argument could be countered with examples of hunger strikes and anorexia.

Thus when I talk about universal preferences, I am talking about what people should prefer, not what they always do prefer. [p. 33]

The is-ought gap emerges, and we see that a property of the objective is its universal force.

Given a known issue or two likely to come up as a premise of objections, let’s note from the next page:

Since human beings cannot communicate psychically, all debates necessarily involve the evidence of the senses. Writing presupposes sight; talking requires hearing; Braille requires touch. Thus any proposition that depends upon the invalidity of the senses automatically self-destructs. [p. 34, thus, self-referential incoherence and grand delusion exhibit absurdities and found argument by reducing a key alternative to absurdity. Those who wish to deny that our senses can and often do credibly access a world independent of our individual perceptions, opinions etc, should take due note.]

Next, the duty to truth appears:

If you correct me on an error that I have made, you are implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for me to correct my error. Your preference for me to correct my error is not subjective, but objective, and universal. You don’t say to me: “You should change your opinion to mine because I would prefer it,” but rather: “You should correct your opinion because it is objectively incorrect.” My error does not arise from merely disagreeing with you, but as a result of my deviance from an objective standard of truth. Your argument that I should correct my false opinion rests on the objective value of truth – i.e. that truth is universally preferable to error, and that truth is universally objective. [p. 35]

Going on, we come to:

Simply put, morals are a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify universally preferable human behaviours, just as physics is a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify the universal behaviour of matter . . . .

if I argue against the proposition that universally preferable behaviour is valid, I have already shown my preference for truth over falsehood – as well as a preference for correcting those who speak falsely. Saying that there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour is like shouting in someone’s ear that sound does not exist – it is innately self-contradictory. In other words, if there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour, then one should oppose anyone who claims that there is such a thing as universally preferable behaviour. However, if one “should” do something, then one has just created universally preferable behaviour. Thus universally preferable behaviour – or moral rules – must be valid.

Syllogistically, this is:

1] The proposition [being challenged] is: the concept “universally preferable behaviour” must be valid.

2] Arguing against the validity of universally preferable behaviour [however, inadvertently] demonstrates [so, acknowledges] universally preferable behaviour.
[____________________________________________________ ]

3] Therefore no argument against the validity of universally preferable behaviour can be valid.

We see here how first duties are baked into arguments, and so are inescapable, intelligible and identifiable. Even, the would be objector appeals to such.

However, this is not a demonstration of why as a matter of logic of being, we are morally governed. It simply shows that we cannot escape such and so we see the chain, inescapable as part of reason, so inescapably true, so too first principles.

We cannot but be absurd if we are found sawing off the branch on which we must all sit just to argue. From duties to truth we readily find a duty to right reason as the means to truth and a recognition that our rational, cognitive faculties have a naturally evident baked in end, to move toward truth, accurate description of reality. This leads to the duty to warrant claims of known truth, i.e. to see to it that they are well founded as reliable and credibly true as we need to rely on them. Here, this is clearly part of wider duty to prudence. Then, we recognise conscience and duty to sound conscience rightly guided as described. onward, we observe neighbours who are as we are and so the mutual duties of fairness, justice etc. All of which can be drawn out in detail. In short, we may list, Ciceronian first duties,

1: to truth,
2: to right reason,
3: to warrant and wider prudence,
4: to sound conscience,
5: to neighbour,
6: so too to fairness, and
7: to justice,
. . . ,
x: etc.

Ciceronian? Yes, try De Legibus:

—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for . “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans [–> esp. Cicero, speaking as a leading statesman], an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

[–> this points to the wellsprings of reality, the only place where is and ought can be bridged; bridged, through the inherently good utterly wise, maximally great necessary being, the creator God, which adequately answers the Euthyphro dilemma and Hume’s guillotine argument surprise on seeing reasoning is-is then suddenly a leap to ought-ought. IS and OUGHT are fused from the root]

This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice

Where do the roots of such moral government come from?

The answer is, the root of reality, the only level where is and ought can be bridged without gaps. Reality’s root must be a necessary being of finite remove with causal capability to be a well-spring of worlds, including worlds with morally governed creatures. So too, to adequately found such government (given the longstanding gap and the Euthyphro debates), inherently good and utterly wise, i.e. maximally great person emerges.

Altogether, a familiar figure, the God of ethical theism. (Cf. No. 47.) But if one objects, one needs to provide a comparatively powerful candidate root without opening up gaps or absurdities: _________ . Harder to do than may be at first imagined.

Now, too, these explorations were sparked by noticing News’ clip from a recent Salon Article denouncing the New Atheists who have gone all libertarian or the like:

New Atheism appeared to offer moral clarity, it emphasized intellectual honesty and it embraced scientific truths about the nature and workings of reality. It gave me immense hope to know that in a world overflowing with irrationality, there were clear-thinking individuals with sizable public platforms willing to stand up for what’s right and true — to stand up for sanity in the face of stupidity.

Fast-forward to the present: What a grift that was! Many of the most prominent New Atheists turned out to be nothing more than self-aggrandizing, dogmatic, irascible, censorious, morally compromised people who, at every opportunity, have propped up the powerful over the powerless, the privileged over the marginalized. This may sound hyperbolic, but it’s not when, well, you look at the evidence. So I thought it might be illuminating to take a look at where some of the heavy hitters in the atheist and “skeptic” communities are today. What do their legacies look like? In what direction have they taken their cultural quest to secularize the world?

Phil Torres, “Godless grifters: How the New Atheists merged with the far right” at Salon (June 5, 2021)

See the import of the bolded points, illustrating the first duties in action on the part of one who, presumably, has no way to bridge IS-OUGHT within his apparent evolutionary materialistic scientism?

So, the issue of inescapable, self evidently true first duties of reason is not as easily brushed aside as some may imagine. END

Comments
Also, this is clearly, to me, of a different nature than just preferring vanilla ice cream, as love goes to the heart (or soul) of who we are as moral beings who care about how our actions affect others.
Yes. The equating of subjective moral values to the preference of ice cream flavors is just a strawman misrepresentation of what subjective moral values are. Some subjective values can be nearly universal and deeply held (eg, killing, torturing) and others are more variable and less deeply held (eg, no sex before marriage). But none of this needs a source outside the individual. A person’s values will certainly be influenced and informed by things outside the individual, but they do not reside outside the individual.Joe Schooner
January 5, 2022
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> – differences of opinion among members of an error prone species only show differences, they do not demonstrate absence of underlying reality or ability…
And they certainly don’t suggest objective moral truths. Occam’s razor.
Error exists is undeniable truth
Nobody disputes this.
.. as well as fact and obviously morality is a domain where there are many errors…
No. Morality is a domain where there is variation. Some moral values benefit the individual and society more than others. That doesn’t equate to error.
Not even a Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao could get away with only lying every time they opened their mouths. Lying, like other evils, reveals itself by its parasitical nature of depending on that not being the general pattern of behaviour.
Argument from consequence. But the issue of lying has already been discussed. Whether or not a lie is good or bad (virtue of sin) depends on the situation.
the difference here is that what is at stake is the first principles and duties of reason themselves, which though actually identified in key part thousands of years ago have been widely dismissed due to breakdown of the intellectual community.
Strawman. Nobody is arguing that reason is not beneficial. Just whether it is a duty that originates outside the individual.
JS: what aspects of them require the addition of objective moral values>> – KF: notice the question-begging “addition” creating the false presumption and fallacious claimed default that morality is only subjective? Nope, you do not get that default, every tub must stand on its own bottom as my gramps used to say….
Your evasion is duly noted.
JS: >2) What moral value that is seen in our society…>> KF: I am pretty convinced we are not in the same society, but civilisation will do – notice, again the evasion of the direct challenge…,
Your evasion of the question is duly noted.
JS: …can only be explained by it being objectively derived?>> KF: – the claim, there are no knowable objective moral truths has been actually algebraically demonstrated to be self referentially incoherent and so we may freely accept its denial as a first, certain, undeniable, objective, knowable moral truth: ~S = (O*M) = 1.
The same algebraic logic that concludes that claiming that something doesn’t exist is proof that it exists.
JS: >3) The actions that trigger our conscience change over time,…>> KF: Yes, we can learn or analyse, or sometimes suffer moral breakdown.
No, our moral values change as our knowledge increase or circumstances change.
You and others have long been warned that incorporation of a key fallacy leads to the principle of explosion.
Argument from consequence.
your trifecta rhetorical pattern stands exposed: red herrings > strawmen soaked in ad homs > set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere for discussion.
Argument by ad hominem.
JS: …even within a single individual… >> KF: Yes, as noted there can be moral growth or decay for individuals and by extension communities and civilisations.
No. There is no moral growth or decay. There is only moral change. Sometime the change improves the individual’s life in society, and the “stability” of society. And sometimes it doesn’t.
The subjective model has a fatal self referential incoherence, suffers principle of explosion and is worthless, failed.
This is true for the strawman version of subjective morality you keep erecting. This does not hold true for the model of subjective morality put forth by Origenes.
JS: >>Why is it necessary to add an objective layer to this model?>> KF: Returning to the begged question. It has been demonstrated algebraically to draw out a lot of associated themes, that the core denial of knowable, warranted, objective moral truth is self-referential and incoherent, thus reduced to absurdity.
Yes. You have repeatedly stated that claiming that something doesn’t exist is proof that it does exist. You should really stop making this absurd claim.
You have made yourself a poster-child of the breakdown of responsible rationality in our civilisation.
Argument by ad hominem.Joe Schooner
January 5, 2022
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Love for one's family is a good example. It comes from inside and exists within us, and then manifests in outward signs. However, the outward signs are a result of the internal, private, subjective state. Also, this is clearly, to me, of a different nature than just preferring vanilla ice cream, as love goes to the heart (or soul) of who we are as moral beings who care about how our actions affect others.Viola Lee
January 5, 2022
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KF @
**there are no knowable, warranted, objective moral truths** – of course, that is a bottomline claim of relativism etc.
Actually it isn’t. Those who argue for a subjective origin of moral laws, simply argue that there are knowable warranted laws which have a subjective origin.
once there are knowable, warranted — filtered, reliable — truths about right conduct of course, the sort of relativism we have seen all over collapses.
No, it does not. The subjectivism I argue for has a solid foundation — see #768
What was shown is that there are, per reductio, knowable, warranted, objective truths regarding right conduct etc. Thus, any scheme or claim that tries to deny such fails.
You have never refuted the possibility that knowable warranted truths have a subjective origin. All you did was scream “OBJECTIVE” at every turn, and you continue to do that.
we here come right back to refusal to acknowledge that as we are error prone, warrant is important in supporting reliability of claims, thus their objectivity.
I hope we can agree that your love for your family has a subjective origin, right? Ok, when there is warrant for your love for your family (perhaps in the form of letters), then your love for your family still has a subjective origin. Weird isn't it? The thing is, warrant does not magically change origin, no matter how desperately you need warrant to have that capability in order to make your argument.Origenes
January 5, 2022
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Origenes, here we go again, needlessly but I note for record: >>**there are no knowable, warranted, objective moral truths**>> - of course, that is a bottomline claim of relativism etc. The differences of opinion thesis is meant to support it, as are claims that one cannot prove to arbitrarily high standard etc. - once there are knowable, warranted -- filtered, reliable -- truths about right conduct of course, the sort of relativism we have seen all over collapses. A universal negative is refuted by a single counter-example; a well known logical principle. - In this case, the refutation arises from exposing self referential incoherence. >>And this claim, according to KF, is self-referentially incoherent.>> - actually, many many observers have noted same and the matter can be shown, even as I did by using the AND operator. >> He has even algebra to show that it is. >> - yes, and it is the propositional calculus speaking not me as an individual, this is the fallacy of personalising and polarising. >>So, according to KF,>> - according to the logic of the matter given self referential incoherence >> it follows that it is simply impossible for moral laws to have a subjective origin.>> - This is not what was demonstrated, it is loaded and strawmannish. - What was shown is that there are, per reductio, knowable, warranted, objective truths regarding right conduct etc. Thus, any scheme or claim that tries to deny such fails. >>Let’s have a look at some aspects of his claim: **Knowable** Why is it that a subjective origin for moral laws implies that these laws are no longer “knowable”?>> - pummelling the strawman caricature. >>Which tortured definition of ‘subjective’ >> - we here come right back to refusal to acknowledge that as we are error prone, warrant is important in supporting reliability of claims, thus their objectivity. Where more strawman pummelling is in prospect, using loaded language. - and there is no tortured definition, here, again is Collins:
SUBJECTIVE: subjective adj 1. belonging to, proceeding from, or relating to the mind of the thinking subject and not the nature of the object being considered 2. of, relating to, or emanating from a person’s emotions, prejudices, etc: subjective views. OBJECTIVE: objective adj 1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual’s conceptions: are there objective moral values?. [AmHD helps: 1. a. Existing independent of or external to the mind;] 2. undistorted by emotion or personal bias 3. of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc.
- the issue of error proneness is clear >>forces us to accept that as a given?>> - triumphalistic strawman pummelling, you attack what I never said and personalise, leaving out that the self referential incoherence is a longstanding problem, as say can be seen in Beckwith's exchange with a member of an audience in 1992. >> Perhaps I don’t even want to know.>> - more strawman pummelling. >>** Warranted**>> - warrant of course is a response to our error proneness and need to use sound reasoning to establish reliability. Strawman fallacies violate this. >>Why is that a subjective origin for moral laws>> - strawman, again. >> implies that these laws are not “warranted”?>> - our error proneness does not imply that all of our thoughts etc are false or suspect, but it does require due prudence through right reason to lead us to what is reliable, a point highlighted for months. >>Which tortured definition of ‘subjective’ forces us to accept that as a given?>> - again, back on strawman pummelling. - this illustrates the breakdown, but at this point I can only highlight for record. KFkairosfocus
January 5, 2022
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Origenes, of course, the golden rule (or more broadly, duty to neighbour who is of like morally governed nature as we are) is a longstanding first principle of right conduct etc. Insofar as this, with other first duties, can guide us to well warranted conclusions regarding duty etc, it is part of an objective framework. Where, I yet again highlight how you as an objector find yourself sitting on the same first principles branch in your attempt to gain rhetorical traction. Pervasive, inescapable, observable first principles that are at the core of rational, responsible reasoning are pivotal, they are constants that we can summarise and recognise, built in law. Inescapable pervasive first principles, so if denied or dismissed the objector invariably becomes self-referentially inconsistent. We can therefore freely take them as true first principles of OBJECTIVE -- filtered, warranted, reliable -- character and from them set out to build up bodies of knowledge on duty, sound law etc. Which is precisely what actually happened with our civilisation. This is what you have for months refused to acknowledge even as ever so many times you have inadvertently shown just how much you are sitting on the branch you are trying to saw off. KF PS: What I am highlighting is not some suspect novelty, here is Epictetus c 150 AD on first duties of reason as pervasive first principles and why they can be taken as first truths:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. We here see the first principles of right reason in action. Cf J. C. Wright]
Where, we ignored this umpteen times does not provide any better basis for continuing that ill advised policy.kairosfocus
January 5, 2022
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SH, I continue to have net access headaches etc, but I just got connectivity. I see your link and it seems to me there is material missing context in the OP, by BA:
JDK wrote in a comment to my last post: “I just believe it is true that there is no Truth that we can know.” I replied by stating that the fact that it is evil to torture a baby for pleasure is certainly true. And I challenged JDK: “Deny that. I dare you.” JDK refused my dare and ran for cover.
BA chose a moral case, and that will do for some aspects of the matter. However, the assertion given is far broader and is a classic statement of radical relativism that illustrates its self referential incoherence and failure at outset. Here, is my algebra on it, and I invite you to respond on substance:
the truth claim, “there are no [knowable] objective truths regarding any matter,” roughly equivalent to, “knowledge is inescapably only subjective,” is an error. Let’s symbolise: ~[O*G] with * as AND. It intends to describe not mere opinion but warranted, credible truth about knowledge in general. So, ~[O*G] is self referential as it is clearly about subject matter G, and is intended to be a well warranted objectively true claim. But it is itself therefore a truth claim about knowledge in general intended to be taken as objectively true, which is what it tries to deny as a possibility. So, it is self contradictory and necessarily false PHASE I: Let a proposition be represented by x G = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding some matter in general including history, science, the secrets of our hearts, morality etc, is the case O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true} PHASE II: It is claimed, S= ~[O*G] = 1, 1 meaning true However, the subject of S is G, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about G where it forbids O-status to any claim of type G so, ~[O*G] cannot be true per self referential incoherence ++++++++++ PHASE III: The Algebra, translating from S: ~[O*G] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*G]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*G = 1 [condensing not of not] where, G [general truth claim including moral ones of course] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] CONCLUSION: That is, there are objective moral truths; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*G] is false, ~[O*G] = 0. The set of knowable objective truths in general -- and embracing those that happen to be about states of affairs in regard to right conduct etc -- is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it. That’s important. Also, there are many particular objective general and moral truths that are adequately warranted to be regarded as reliable. Try, Napoleon was once a European monarch and would be conqueror. Try, Jesus of Nazareth is a figure of history. Try, it is wrong to torture babies for fun, and more. Ours is a needlessly confused age, heading for trouble.
Care to respond? KFkairosfocus
January 5, 2022
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Origenes “You are also addressing me, because I too lost my temper “ No I was not thinking of you and I thought I made that clear. We have all lost our temper but I don’t recall you attacking KFs character. Vividvividbleau
January 5, 2022
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KF's Algebra Argument Against a Subjective Origin for Morality. According to KF, in order to say that moral laws have a subjective origin, one has to defend the claim: **there are no knowable, warranted, objective moral truths** And this claim, according to KF, is self-referentially incoherent. He has even algebra to show that it is. So, according to KF, it follows that it is simply impossible for moral laws to have a subjective origin. Let’s have a look at some aspects of his claim: **Knowable** Why is it that a subjective origin for moral laws implies that these laws are no longer “knowable”? Which tortured definition of ‘subjective’ forces us to accept that as a given? Perhaps I don’t even want to know. ** Warranted** Why is that a subjective origin for moral laws implies that these laws are not “warranted”? Which tortured definition of ‘subjective’ forces us to accept that as a given? I love my wife dearly, I think that we can all agree this love has a subjective origin. Does this imply that, in order to protect the integrity of that origin, there can be no warrant whatsoever for my love for her? Am I forced to burn all the warrant, including all my love letters to her, in order to coherently maintain that the origin of my love for her is ‘subjective’? ** Objective truth** A term which KF defines as “independent from the subject.” …. I have argued that self-evident truths such as “I exist” and “I am self-aware” cannot be said to be independent of the subject. That it simply doesn’t make any sense to make such an obviously absurd claim. IOWs I am absolutely convinced there can be subjective truths. But KF stubbornly wants none of it. The subject is wrong about everything due to error-proneness. To him all truths are ‘objective’ by definition, no argument necessary. Without exception, all truth comes from God [which is what 'objective' really means to him], we incorrigible sinners are wrong about everything; especially about morality. There seems to be no way forward debating him.Origenes
January 5, 2022
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Vividbleau:
I find the bile and hatred aimed at KF and for SB by you and others ( not VL or Origenes ) absolutely disgusting. And yes that is my opinion.
really ? steve_h
January 5, 2022
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Vividbleau @1053
(4.) By applying the golden rule people converge on many ‘moral rules’, all subjectively derived.
VB: Does point (4) correspond with reality? No You made a comment to KF that he does not get facts for free well you don’t get “morality” for free either. What does correspond with reality concerning point (4) is this: By applying the golden rule people converge on many rules all subjectively derived, that’s it. As you can see I have omitted IMO your illegitimate use of “moral”
You bring up an important point. What does the dictionary say?
MORAL adjective 1. of, relating to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes. 2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work. 3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations. 4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being. 5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral): a moral man. 6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste. 7. of, relating to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support. 8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
I have stated several times that in my view the ultimate yardstick for moral behavior is ‘harmony’, which is a goal in itself, that is, we want harmony for the sake of harmony. So, behavior that brings harmony is ‘good’ and behavior that leads to disharmony is ‘bad’. Ultimately, in my view, harmony has to do with awareness of oneself and the other — in #649 I have tried to clarify what I mean by that. Ok, that is my proposed grounding of morality in (very) simple terms. Now let's look at the other side. What exactly is ‘moral’ in the context of objective morality? Is following objective rules, imposed on us from the outside, which we do not understand, ‘moral’? Is following ‘orders’ which you do not understand ‘moral’? Take for instance the moral law “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” We have to accept that on authority. Is there only one God? Well, we have no way of knowing, but ok, if you say so …. Another example, this time from the Quran:
Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”
The authority (Allah) knows what’s right, and you do not … Now that is ‘objective morality’! - - - -
VB to Joe Schooner: I find the bile and hatred aimed at KF and for SB by you and others ( not VL or Origenes ) absolutely disgusting. And yes that is my opinion.
You are also addressing me, because I too lost my temper more than once. In JS defense, I have to say that, for one thing, his pertinent simple question to KF has been repeatedly completely ignored for inexplicable reasons. At some point … In Kairosfocus defense, I think he has been on autopilot this entire thread. He has informed us that he faces a multifaceted life crisis.Origenes
January 5, 2022
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Vivid, thanks. I have again responded on substance but I have no expectation of a responsible reply. Just the Beckwith clip, long since, was adequate as an answer to the claims, and there is much more including the algebra they want to pretend is insubstantial. That is a measure of where things are. KFkairosfocus
January 5, 2022
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JS, it is clear that when I have addressed such challenges (and there are many, many longstanding answers summarised by others including Lewis Vaughn that you should have been routinely exposed to but obviously have disregarded . . . ) you and others have simply ignored or deflected or distract from them. Now, you set out to project intemperate false accusations, raising the question of cognitive dissonance and its defence mechanisms. This reflects the depth of indoctrination at work, there is a one sidedness in both education and media joined to narrative domination, where the very issue at stake is rational responsibility. Meanwhile, of course, there is the usual pattern of appealing to first duties to object to same. (Evidently, the little matter of sawing off the branch on which you too are sitting escapes you. What do you think appeals to honesty and want of courage imply? Especially when, as I will go on to show, your accusations are simply without merit and manifest a want of basic civility.) I will, for record -- I have no illusions at this stage, that you are likely to be substantially responsive or civil, note: >>1) Given the variety of societies that exist today, and those that have been recorded throughout history,>> - differences of opinion among members of an error prone species only show differences, they do not demonstrate absence of underlying reality or ability after careful reasoning [including to establish principles of reasoning] to arrive at objective truth. - I gave examples of economics and past quarrels in Mathematics, Physics is another example, Chemistry too. - Error exists is undeniable truth as well as fact and obviously morality is a domain where there are many errors and where many reformations have actually been initiated by pointing to the very first duties of reason that you so obviously despise. - Just for record, I again cite the charter of modern constitutional democracy, as a pivotal case in point:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God [--> natural law context is explicit] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation [--> prudence, fairness, right reason, duty to neighbour, especially French neighbour]. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15; note, law as "the highest reason," per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [--> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [--> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance of the civil peace of justice], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence [--> how explicit do you have to be?], indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
- of course, instead of noting the courage of these 56, to in part indict their own selves by citing principles they had been forced to compromise on, because they knew truth comes first, the modern tendency is to distract and denigrate. - Even the devil admits the truth from time to time. - Not even a Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao could get away with only lying every time they opened their mouths. Lying, like other evils, reveals itself by its parasitical nature of depending on that not being the general pattern of behaviour. Which is itself a clue on objective moral truths, as Kant highlighted. (Duly explained above, but of course ignored.) - the difference here is that what is at stake is the first principles and duties of reason themselves, which though actually identified in key part thousands of years ago have been widely dismissed due to breakdown of the intellectual community. >>what aspects of them require the addition of objective moral values>> - notice the question-begging "addition" creating the false presumption and fallacious claimed default that morality is only subjective? Nope, you do not get that default, every tub must stand on its own bottom as my gramps used to say. - the reality is, al along, you are distracting from and evading the self-referential incoherence of the claim that there are no knowable, warranted, objective moral truths, which is a reductio that establishes the denial. - which is, of course, what you were challenged to answer to and have tried to distract from, evade and impose a false narrative. >>to explain them?>> - again, evasion >>2) What moral value that is seen in our society>> - I am pretty convinced we are not in the same society, but civilisation will do - notice, again the evasion of the direct challenge. - The here heavily loaded, question-begging term "value" is substituted for what is at stake, knowable, objective, warranted, reliable moral truth. TRUTH is the issue, learning to prize and live by its light and law comes later. - Evasiveness on so central a matter is itself a refutation by implication that you have no truly cogent answer. Especially when you then turn to false accusations. - First things, first. - at this point, I again put on the table what you are artfully dodging and trying to distract attention from, a demonstration of the reality of knowable, warranted, objective moral TRUTH:
Let a proposition be represented by x M = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding right conduct, duty/ought, virtue/honour, good/evil etc (i.e. the subject is morality) is the case O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true It is claimed, S= ~[O*M] = 1 However, the subject of S is M, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about M where it forbids O-status to any claim of type M so, ~[O*M] cannot be true per self referential incoherence ++++++++++ ~[O*M] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*M]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*M = 1 [condensing not of not] where, M [moral truth claim] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] That is, there are objective moral truths; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*M] is false. The set is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it. That’s important.
- this is a special form of a wider demonstration on knowable truth. The narrative that there are no knowable, warranted objective truths that transcend relativisation to communities and individuals fails by way of self referential incoherence. - As noted your quarrel is with algebra. >>can only be explained by it being objectively derived?>> - the claim, there are no knowable objective moral truths has been actually algebraically demonstrated to be self referentially incoherent and so we may freely accept its denial as a first, certain, undeniable, objective, knowable moral truth: ~S = (O*M) = 1. - this is by itself as a logical finding, enough to overturn all forms of relativism, emotivism, subjectivism, postmodernism, multiculturalism etc that deny that there are objective knowable moral truths. -- It's already over, technically. - the established reality of existence of objective moral truth is something that cannot be accounted for by such ideologies and a core commitment has been shown to be self refuting. >>3) The actions that trigger our conscience change over time,>> - Yes, we can learn or analyse, or sometimes suffer moral breakdown. - It is only because of the controlling fallacy of self-refutingly disbelieving in objective, knowable, warranted moral truth, that you have come to imagine that such is supportive evidence. - You and others have long been warned that incorporation of a key fallacy leads to the principle of explosion. - Let me -- despite your proneness to suggest that as you ignored a point before, it can be ignored again -- note from Beckwith about an encounter in a public forum:
In the fall of 1992, I (Francis Beckwith) took part in a panel discussion on morality in the media. Sponsored by the Clark County Bar Association of Southern Nevada, the panel’s purpose was to discuss the media’s responsibility for the broadcasting of programs that contain sex, violence, and obscenity. Among the participants were two radio shock jocks, two attorneys (one of whom was a strong feminist), the owner of a phone sex line, the general manager of a local television station, a mother who schools her children at home, a Christian radio disc jockey, a television reporter, and me, a philosopher. I agreed with most of the participants that government censorship is not the answer to our problems with the media. But I also made the point that a lack of censorship should not prevent the media from making moral judgments about their programming or from being concerned about how such programming may affect young people and the general populace negatively. Immediately following these comments, a distressed young woman in the audience raised her hand and asked me the pointed question, “Who are you to judge?” This question, of course, was not meant to be answered. It was not an inquiry from someone seeking after truth but rather was a rhetorical question. For the young lady was really saying: Dr. Beckwith, you have no right to make moral judgments about individuals or society. Though the question was not intended to be answered, I responded anyway: “I certainly do have a right to make moral judgments. I am a rational human person who is aware of certain fundamental principles of logical and moral reasoning. I think I’m qualified. ” [–> sounds familiar?] This response absolutely shocked her. I continued, “Your claim that I have no right to make judgments is itself a judgment about me. Your claim, therefore, is self-refuting. ” [--> notice, a familiar issue, self referential incoherence?] Although the audience was brought to laughter by this exchange, the young woman’s question is a serious one raised by many people in our contemporary culture. It is serious because it assumes moral relativism, the view that when it comes to moral issues there are no universally objective right or wrong answers, no inappropriate or appropriate judgments, and no reasonable or rational ways by which to make moral distinctions that apply in every time, in every place, and to every person. [--> notice, his context.] Some people who espouse moral relativism [--> notice, this is subsidiary, going on to note where some end up] seem to be saying that only subjective opinions exist, which are no different from one’s feelings about a favorite football team, movie star, or ice cream flavor. [–> notice, the failure of the self refuting assertion that it is objectively the case that there are no knowable objective truths regarding states of affairs on right conduct, virtue good/evil etc . . . and recall the quarrel with algebra duly noted] But the young woman in the audience did not fully comprehend the scope of her espousal of moral relativism. Although it is quite appealing in a culture whose elites instruct us to be “tolerant,” “open-minded,” and “nonjudgmental” (even though, ironically, such values are inconsistent with moral relativism [--> they are quite intolerant of those who disagree with relativism, but more to the point tolerance in proper form is that for a certain span of disagreement, it is prudent to accept certain errors even known ones and to regulate certain behaviours as the attempt to impose beyond what a society can bear is more destructive, witness prohibition and how the US came to civil war in key part through polarisation over slavery]), people who embrace this view rarely take it to its logical conclusion. For to deny the existence of universally objective moral distinctions, one must admit that Mother Teresa was no more or less moral than Adolf Hitler, that torturing three-year-olds for fun is neither good nor evil, that giving 10 percent of one’s financial surplus to an invalid is neither praiseworthy nor condemnable, that raping a woman is neither right nor wrong, and that providing food and shelter for one’s spouse and children is neither a good thing nor a bad thing [--> and that is reductio ad absurdum, not emotive appeal to consequences, as was already corrected] . . .
- Of course, you can pretend that this did not come up above and that it does not constitute an answer to the long past sell by date fallacies you have again raised. You can equally without foundation try to poison the well by saying that I have called you a coward, and that I have not answered your questions directly or indirectly. All that does is to show the increasingly manifest bad faith on your part. - your trifecta rhetorical pattern stands exposed: red herrings > strawmen soaked in ad homs > set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. >> even within a single individual. >> - Yes, as noted there can be moral growth or decay for individuals and by extension communities and civilisations. >>This fits perfectly with a subjective model.>> - The subjective model has a fatal self referential incoherence, suffers principle of explosion and is worthless, failed. - Whatever may or may not seemingly plausibly fit such a frame is therefore irrelevant, it specifically is known to indiscriminately entail true and false consequents through implication logic applied to inference to the best explanation. - are you aware that most planetariums actually apply a Ptolemaic model and aptly describe the paths of bodies in the heavens? Fit does not imply truth. If Tom is a cat then he is an animal. Tom is an animal so he must be a cat fails as a matter of affirming the consequent. - That leads to, the point that we look at comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power. Relativism, subjectivism etc are incoherent and fail outright. >>Why is it necessary to add an objective layer to this model?>> - Returning to the begged question. It has been demonstrated algebraically to draw out a lot of associated themes, that the core denial of knowable, warranted, objective moral truth is self-referential and incoherent, thus reduced to absurdity. - This, on canons of logic and duty to right reason means we may freely infer the denial, i.e. it is established that there are objective, well warranted, knowable truths regarding right conduct etc, i.e. morality. - Your quarrel is with logic, possibly with the meaning of morality, truth, warrant and certainly with objectivity. - You have made yourself a poster-child of the breakdown of responsible rationality in our civilisation. - You would be well advised to heed the warning in Plato's Ship of state as to where such leads:
The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary . . . . Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands [= the people as natural owners of a polity, but who generally lack required capacity for governance] into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus.
- Nigh on 2400 years of warning paid for with blood and tears, but we imagine we can tell truth by the clock. - Fail. - Fail, backed by increasingly intemperate false accusations that need to be taken back and apologised for. -- And BTW, appeal to honesty is appeal to first duties. It reveals the underlying pattern of sawing off the branch on which we are sitting. KFkairosfocus
January 5, 2022
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I find the bile and hatred aimed at KF and for SB by you and others absolutely disgusting. And yes that is my opinion.
And you are entitled to it. But, how would you describe someone who has posted more words than an average novel, yet refused to address questions that have been asked many times? And who has called other people derogatory names, repeatedly, rather than debate honestly? I think “coward” is a very tame description.Joe Schooner
January 4, 2022
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“Does cowardice run in your family, or do you have all of it?” I find the bile and hatred aimed at KF and for SB by you and others ( not VL or Origenes ) absolutely disgusting. And yes that is my opinion. Vividvividbleau
January 4, 2022
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Origenes Let’s go back to 863. For convenience here it is Vividbleau @856 You make an observation and a claim “no one likes to be killed” I will take that at face value for the vast majority. So no one likes to be killed, ok. But you go further and slap on a moral component to “ no one likes to be killed” when all you have demonstrated is “no one likes to be killed” Like I said “ok” You are correct, Vividbleau. My argument for a non-whimsical subjective morality goes somewhat like this: (1.) People are fundamentally similar beings. (2.) People converge on “no one likes to be killed”, “no one likes to be robbed”, “no one likes to be interrupted when making an argument” and so on. (3.) People converge on the golden rule (see @828) from (2.) and (3.) (4.) By applying the golden rule people converge on many ‘moral rules’, all subjectively derived. End Does point (1) correspond with reality? Yes Does point (2) correspond with reality? Yes Does point (3) correspond with reality? Yes Does point (4) correspond with reality? No You made a comment to KF that he does not get facts for free well you don’t get “morality” for free either. What does correspond with reality concerning point (4) is this. By applying the golden rule people converge on many rules all subjectively derived, that’s it. As you can see I have omitted IMO your illegitimate use of “moral” Vividvividbleau
January 4, 2022
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On the contrary, we have selectively hyperskeptical reactions to well established understandings of truth, warrant and objectivity.
Really? Perhaps everyone missed your response to the very basic questions that have been asked of you. This is to remind you:
1) Given the variety of societies that exist today, and those that have been recorded throughout history, what aspects of them require the addition of objective moral values to explain them? 2) What moral value that is seen in our society can only be explained by it being objectively derived? 3) The actions that trigger our conscience change over time, even within a single individual. This fits perfectly with a subjective model. Why is it necessary to add an objective layer to this model?
You have been asked numerous times to address these simple questions. And you have repeatedly evaded them. Does cowardice run in your family, or do you have all of it?Joe Schooner
January 4, 2022
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JS, anticipated at 1049. Doubling down on fallacious dismissiveness and piling on distractions etc that bury substance do not shift the balance on the merits. Just above you have something original to this thread [though the general point is longstanding and has been well known]. You regard it as insubstantial. Show why specifically or further stand exposed. KFkairosfocus
January 4, 2022
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VL
But, to be fair, Joe, many of those 90,000 word have been copy-and-pasted repeats of words already posted, so actually unique words in unique paragraphs is certainly much fewer.
Sadly, very true.Joe Schooner
January 4, 2022
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VL & JS, we are very aware of the tactic, buried in distractive comments and objections, thus needing to again be brought to focal attention. We distracted from it a dozen times already does not count. KF PS, just for emphasis, here is something original to this thread and which has actually demonstrative and decisive force regarding the failure of relativism etc:
Let a proposition be represented by x M = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding right conduct, duty/ought, virtue/honour, good/evil etc (i.e. the subject is morality) is the case O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true It is claimed, S= ~[O*M] = 1 However, the subject of S is M, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about M where it forbids O-status to any claim of type M so, ~[O*M] cannot be true per self referential incoherence ++++++++++ ~[O*M] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*M]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*M = 1 [condensing not of not] where, M [moral truth claim] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] That is, there are objective moral truths; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*M] is false. The set is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it. That’s important.
This helps clarify what an objective truth claim is, and in particular, one about right conduct etc, i.e. morality. It then uses the logic of AND to draw out how the attempted denial of objective, knowable moral truths results in self-reference and incoherence (leading to principle of explosion and absurdity). Thus, the negation is true, undeniably the case, there are objective, warranted, knowable truths regarding right conduct etc, morality. A significant result, rhetorically trashed and/or dismissed and/or distracted from through doubling down on fallacious rejections above. In the end, establishing a track record of such speciousness lends to the conclusions now being drawn. Weighed, wanting. Wanting, where and when it counts. Sad, but significant. It's over. Going forward we build on what has been established over the past month as it clearly shows that we are seeing willful behaviour in the teeth of cogent correction.kairosfocus
January 4, 2022
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VL, On the contrary, we have selectively hyperskeptical reactions to well established understandings of truth, warrant and objectivity. Such have been used to try to frustrate the force of an obviously ideologically undesirable (but in fact well warranted) point regarding branch on which we all sit first principles. And, given the voyage of folly chaos now engulfing civilisation and the ongoing 4th generation civil war agit prop and lawfare in a leading country, the US [now amounting to a reichstag fire incident and abuse of governing institutions to impose an agenda], this is not a time for playing so called light hearted rhetorical games. Fiddling is not an appropriate response while Rome is ablaze. Where, too, as Orwell warned, corruption of language is a principal technique of tyranny and betrayal of civilisation. Doublethink, doublespeak, newspeak and the like have a point. As regards truth, it is simple record that we may paraphrase Aristotle 2300+ years since, in Metaphysics, 1011b: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. Accurate description of reality or realities. As for warrant, that has to do with our error-proneness and need to establish that what we claim to know as true is reasonably free from bias, errors, fallacies, exaggerated or ideologised status etc, rendering it reliable enough to trust and use, even if it may not yet fully attain to the truth, the whole material truth and nothing but the pure truth on a matter. Yes, there is normally some open-endedness, save in relatively rare but pivotal cases of self-evidence and the like that provide utter certainty. Things like, error exists. We thus can see, as I commented some years past here at UD on principles of aesthetics:
. . . to be objective we need [1] a framework that warrants claims as credibly true and so reliable, as well as [2] a tolerably effective means of detecting and improving on our errors. None of that requires that the domains so contemplated only comprise concrete, material entities. Or even that we have arrived at comprehensively absolute truth as a body, i.e. while we know some self evident and some other necessary plumb line truths, there is no need to assume or pretend that our system as a whole or for the most part is free of errors. Hence, the concept: improve on. Here, we may next contrast degrees of truth: [i] subjective truth as perceived to be so by some individual or group (which is not at all to be dismissively equated with delusion or imagination or whim), with [ii] absolute truth which is true, the whole material truth and nothing but that truth (say, as known to God [who knows perfectly and completely]), and again with [iii] objective truth, i.e. what we [who are finite and fallible but rational . . . ] may have good warrant and even a duty to hold as credibly and reliably true independent of our particular subjectivity (given the adequacy of the warrants) but which is open in principle to sound correction. This then brings us to the crucial importance of known, inescapable first duties of right reason, to truth, to sound reasoning, to prudence (thus, to warrant), to sound conscience, to fairness and justice etc. Where, warrant is the process and result of so fulfilling cognitive duties of care that the said result is credibly true and reliable, worthy of being acted on -- even, in those cases . . . the vast majority, in practice . . . that we cannot deliver utterly incorrigible certainty. Warrant, is not to be equated with mere persuasion, it is asking if the reason for a belief or opinion is sound or at least reliable (not, that we merely have a personal or collective right to it or that we may agree to accept it).
Even Wikipedia concedes, speaking against known ideological agenda due to the weight of the matter:
Objectivity is a philosophical concept of being true independently from individual subjectivity caused by perception, emotions, or imagination. A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by a sentient subject. [Wikipedia, acc. 2019:11:17]
In short, despite rhetorical gambits otherwise, warrant is patently central to objectivity. And where, a key test case is {} --> 0, thence N,Z,Q,R,C,R* and associated structures and relationships forming the core of [the study of] logic of structure and quantity aka Mathematics as discipline and as substance. For, we deal with abstracta we rationally contemplate as first persons and communicate warrant on to others building a body of knowledge regarding a substance that is not concrete or tangible. This is a paradigm for objectivity of matters and facets of conscious contemplation that are similarly reasonable, well warranted and communicable to others in language etc. Such as, here, the bare -- and otherwise utterly uncontroversial -- fact that we are self-aware and that that awareness is self evident. Rocks have no dreams and cannot be deluded that they have such, if one is self aware, that is decisive at first person level. Even that concept turns on self awareness. One can communicate it and express it, it becomes common and objective knowledge in a self aware race of neighbours who are as each other. Frankly it is a self referential absurdity that some here have thought to try to hyperskeptically dismiss such, failing to recognise that they thereby discredit their own mindedness. Where, yet again -- and as has been reported long since [at least since 239 and 284], high quality dictionaries such as Collins report correct usage:
SUBJECTIVE: subjective (s?b?d??kt?v) adj 1. belonging to, proceeding from, or relating to the mind of the thinking subject and not the nature of the object being considered 2. of, relating to, or emanating from a person’s emotions, prejudices, etc: subjective views. OBJECTIVE: objective (?b?d??kt?v) adj 1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual’s conceptions: are there objective moral values?. [AmHD helps: 1. a. Existing independent of or external to the mind;] 2. undistorted by emotion or personal bias 3. of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc.
So, we come back to the original focus. It is readily seen by inspection that in the above the objectors of various stripe have consistently appealed to first duties of reason -- e.g. suggesting or asserting lack of adequate fulfillment of duty to right reason or fairness etc -- even as they have sought to blunt or deflect or distract from the force of the first, branch on which we sit duties. Namely: 1: to truth, 2: to right reason, 3: to warrant and wider prudence, 4: to sound conscience, 5: to neighbour, 6: so too to fairness, and 7: to justice, . . . , x: etc. Yes, THAT is what has stirred objectors up to the tune of hundreds and thousands even of comments for a considerable period. What should instead be celebrated and prized. A mark of our topsy-turvy times. Notwithstanding, those branch on which we all sit duties, which actually built civilisation, are not on trial here. We are and we have collectively been weighed and found wanting. Trying to saw off the branch on which we sit is grossly absurd. KFkairosfocus
January 4, 2022
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Origenes:
Why do KF and SB want the claim “I am self-aware” to be an **objective** truth?
That is because it *is* an objective truth, as well as being a product of your subjective experience. Vivid is correct when he says that objective, means in correspondence with reality. I have defined it further, as the "object of the investigation (the discovered truth), in correspondence with the "subject," (the investigator who discovers that truth). Vivid's *metaphysical* definition and my *epistemological* definition both reflect the same reality. They are two sides of the same coin.StephenB
January 4, 2022
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But, to be fair, Joe, many of those 90,000 word have been copy-and-pasted repeats of words already posted, so actually unique words in unique paragraphs is certainly much fewer.Viola Lee
January 4, 2022
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ViolaL @1041
I think it is obvious that there is no widely-agree-upon definition of a number of words in this discussion: objective, subjective, fact, truth, etc. For example, I think the word objective has various nuanced connotations in everyday discourse, and the arguments here are sort of sliding around those differences.
Indeed. It is my impression that a lot of people use the term ‘objectively’, in ‘objectively true’, as synonymous to ‘very’, ‘really’ or ‘certainly’. These people are very likely to affirm that killing and raping a toddler for fun is indeed “objectively” wrong [yes, it is very .. uh .. o-b-j-e-c-t-i-v-e-l-y wrong] and will have a hard time debating KF if they are not willing to accept KF’s line of reasoning which leads to ‘objective first duties’ coming from above, which will guide them at every step of their lives. - - - - Joe Schooner
KF has posted more than 90,000 words in comments to this OP. More words than are typically found in the average novel.
Wow!Origenes
January 4, 2022
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Folks, the just above would be laughable if it were not so sad. Votes don’t change warrant;
Nope. They don’t. But votes certainly play a part in what is warranted. Or are you opposed to democracy?Joe Schooner
January 4, 2022
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Origenes, it is also interesting to note that KF has posted more than 90,000 words in comments to this OP. More words than are typically found in the average novel. This would be great if he was actually presenting more information than the average novel. But he doesn’t.Joe Schooner
January 4, 2022
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VL. I admire your maths and sheer love of maths and its certainties. I was hoping that someone would write your last. The word ‘truth’ did not even exist in England until the 14th century. When it was put in the Bible for what Christ said, the Hebrew scholars used ‘truth’ as close as possible for the Hebrew word used as something that may be relied on. Definitions have driven me mad since my teacher asked me how I defined ‘define’. As we often hiccuped in my local shebeen- Parvus error in principiis, magnus in conclusionibus.. A small error in the principle is large in the conclusions.Belfast
January 4, 2022
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I think it is obvious that there is no widely-agree-upon definition of a number of words in this discussion: objective, subjective, fact, truth, etc. For example, I think the word objective has various nuanced connotations in everyday discourse, and the arguments here are sort of sliding around those differences. And I think this comment by Origenes is central to the disagreements (although it may not accurately summarize the situation: as I have said, I have not followed every in and out of the discussion).
That’s why KF & SB are arguing that the self-evident truth “I am self-aware” is “objective’, ‘independent from the subject’ and ‘coming from a realm outside of the subject.’ If it wasn’t for their argument for objective morality, neither of them would have ever made such an obviously absurd claim.
Viola Lee
January 4, 2022
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Vividbleau @
O: “Objective truth” means “independent from the subject” means “coming from a realm outside of us subjects.”
VB: That is not my definition. ..
I should have made clear, that, in my understanding, this is in accord with KF’s & SB’s definitions of the term ‘objective.’ - - - KF on objective:
Existing independent of or external to the mind
StephenB see # #122 - -
VB: It [objective] also means that which corresponds with reality, that corresponds with what is the true state of affairs.
When you said this before, I was thinking about the term “truth.” I define “truth” as being an accurate description of reality, so, IOWs a claim which corresponds with reality. So, in my view ‘objective’ in ‘objective truth’ doesn’t have to mean ‘corresponding with reality’ because ‘truth’ already takes care of that. Hence my question to you in #1015. Something went wrong perhaps.
O: “Now, let’s return to the claim “I am self-aware.”
VB: Does this claim correspond with reality, does it correspond to what is the actual state of affairs. Ie “what is”?
Yes, undeniably so.Origenes
January 4, 2022
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VL “but I have found Origenes post clear and credibly solid.” Agreed all though I don’t think his argument is as solid as you do but it’s obvious he has thought a lot about this subject. Vividvividbleau
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