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Does Darwin’s theory of evolution address the origin of life?

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In reply to “UD Pro-Darwinism Essay Challenge, Elizabeth Liddle writes:

KF: there is a simple misunderstanding here. In Darwin’s words:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

In other words, Darwin, and indeed modern evolutionary theory is about descent from “few forms or one”.

It is NOT about the origins of those “few forms or one”.

If you want to uses the tree analogy, it accounts for the trunk to the twigs; it does not account for the origin of the trunk.

Liddle is correct on a basic point: Darwin’s theory proposed to explain transformations of species, not origin of life. That said, most Darwinians have hoped to extend the scope of the theory to encompass prebiotic “evolution” – and they routinely do.

No surprise, because their alternatives are grim: Space aliens, God, or non-Darwinian evolution theories – all of which they minimize or reject because every competitive possibility detracts from their rule. That is the actual reason Darwin in the schools lobbies don’t want competing naturalistic possibilities taught. Such possibilities force an evaluation of the strength of the argument for natural selection as the driver in each and every single case instead of just equating Darwin’s theory with evolution generally. Which is, of course, what they want and need to do.

Darwinism can succeed only as a totalistic system. Of course natural selection does not create complex new organs in life forms in reality. But if all other possibilities are removed, it remains, as Richard Dawkins said back in 1993, the only possibility. And therefore, you see, it or something like it must be true.

I experienced much confusion in these matters until I finally understood that aspect of the struggle. Darwin’s followers will at one and the same time say their theory does not cover OOL and tout with approval papers about chemical prebiotic evolution along Darwinian lines with no inner sense of contradiction. Because their system is totalistic, they do not experience any contradiction, merely an awareness of territory they have not yet claimed.

Comments
If one restricts science to the natural, and assumes that science can in principle get to all truth, then one has implicitly assumed philosophical naturalism. - Del Ratsch, philosopher Does Epistemological Naturalism Imply Metaphysical Naturalism? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yNddAh0Txg Is Metaphysical Naturalism Viable? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS_CQnmoLQ Dr Craig states, epistemological naturalism does not imply metaphysical naturalism.,, In fact a Empistemological Naturalist can and should be a Theist, according to Dr. Craig, because Metaphysical Naturalism is reducto ad absurdum on (at least) these eight following points: 1. The argument from the intentionality (aboutness) of mental states implies non-physical minds (dualism), which is incompatible with naturalism 2. The existence of meaning in language is incompatible with naturalism, Rosenberg even says that all the sentences in his own book are meaningless 3. The existence of truth is incompatible with naturalism 4. The argument from moral praise and blame is incompatible with naturalism 5. Libertarian freedom (free will) is incompatible with naturalism 6. Purpose is incompatible with naturalism 7. The enduring concept of self is incompatible with naturalism 8. The experience of first-person subjectivity (“I”) is incompatible with naturalismbornagain77
September 26, 2013
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bevets:
If ‘therefore God’ is ALWAYS ruled out, how is your view substantively different than philosophical naturalism?
It is always ruled out as a scientific conclusion. It is not ruled out as either a truth or a perfectly valid belief.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Context for the Lennox quotation: The passage quoted goes on:
For example, the assertions by Atkins* and Dawkins**, with which we began, fall into that category. They are not statements of science but rather expressions of personal belief, indeed of faith – fundamentally no different from (though noticeably less tolerant than) much expression of the kind of faith Dawkins expressly wishes to eradicate. Of course, the fact that Dawkins’ and Atkins; cited pronouncements are statements of faith does not of itself mean that those statements are false; but it does mean that they must not be treated as if they were authoritative science. What needs to be investigated is the category into which they fit, and, most important to fall, whether or not they are true.
*“Humanity should accept that science has eliminated the justification for believing in cosmic purpose, and that any survival of purpose is inspired only by sentiment”. ** “When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called Religion.” Lennox is absolutely right. It is crucial that we distinguish between conclusions that flow from science and personal beliefs held by scientists, albeit informed by their scientific understanding. Nothing in evolutionary biology implies that there is no divine creator, that the world was not created for a purpose, or that a deity does not interfere with the world. It is no threat to any belief except specific beliefs as to how the world was created.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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as to this claim:
Science merely requires the working assumption that things are predictable – this is intrinsic to the method, hence the term “methodological naturalism”.
and yet;
Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism – Casey Luskin – February 27, 2012 Excerpt: "Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely 'scientific' and 'rational,' they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word 'chance', not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word 'miracle.'" (pp. 27-28) Wolfgang Pauli - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/nobel_prize-win056771.html The Absurdity of Inflation, String Theory and The Multiverse - Dr. Bruce Gordon - video http://vimeo.com/34468027 Here is the last power-point slide of the preceding video: The End Of Materialism? * In the multiverse, anything can happen for no reason at all. * In other words, the materialist is forced to believe in random miracles as a explanatory principle. * In a Theistic universe, nothing happens without a reason. Miracles are therefore intelligently directed deviations from divinely maintained regularities, and are thus expressions of rational purpose. * Scientific materialism is (therefore) epistemically self defeating: it makes scientific rationality impossible. God Is the Best Explanation of the Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMBcc2aTqcE
and yet the atheistic claim was:
Science merely requires the working assumption that things are predictable – this is intrinsic to the method, hence the term “methodological naturalism”.
Chances hypocrisy will be admitted by atheists? 0! Go figure!bornagain77
September 26, 2013
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So both theists and secularists may worry: “If design is allowed as a (historically) scientific theory, couldn’t it be invoked at every turn as a theoretical panacea, stultifying inquiry as it goes? Might not design become a refuge for the intellectually lazy who have refused to study what nature actually does?” Well, of course it might. But so might the incantation “Evolution accomplished X.” ~ Stephen Meyer
But even if it were true by definition that a scientific hypothesis could involve no reference to God, nothing of much interest would follow. The Augustines and Kuypers of this world would then be obliged to concede that they had made a mistake: but the mistake would be no more than a verbal mistake. They would have to concede that they can’t properly use the term ‘science’ in stating their view or asking their question; they would have to use some other term, such as ‘sience‘ (pronounced like ‘science’); the definition of ‘sience’ results from that of ‘science’ by deleting from the latter the clause proscribing hypotheses that include reference to God (i.e., by removing from the definition of ‘science’ Ruse seems to be endorsing, the clause according to which science deals only with what is natural). Their mistake would not be in what they proposed to say, but rather in how they proposed to say it. ~ Alvin Plantinga
Elizabeth B Liddle @ 25
The scientific response to a gap is “we don’t know”. Not “there is no gap” nor “therefore god”.
If 'therefore God' is ALWAYS ruled out, how is your view substantively different than philosophical naturalism?bevets
September 26, 2013
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I see you found them. ;)Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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Headsup to Lizzie Bevets comments appear to consist almost entirely of quotes (I hesitate to suggest quotemines)that he has built up over the years and can be found at his website.here In his 24, it's Alvin Plantinga and Philip Johnson. @ Bevets, Why not make it a little clearer when you are quoting somebody?Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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Bevets @23: I like this quotation from your link:
The fact that there are scientists who appear to be at war with God is not quite the same as science itself being at war with God. For example, some musicians are militant atheists. But does that mean music itself is at war with God? Hardly. The point here may be expressed as follows: Statements by scientists are not necessarily statements of science. Nor, we might add, are such statements necessarily true; although the prestige of science is such that they are often taken to be so. ~ John Lennox
Quite so.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Yes, bevets, but science does not require a commitment to "philosophical naturalism" nor is "philosophical naturalism" a scientific conclusion. Science merely requires the working assumption that things are predictable - this is intrinsic to the method, hence the term "methodological naturalism". If you object to the conclusion that the the divine has no impact on the world, then don't blame science for that conclusion, because it is not a scientific conclusion. It would not follow, however much support there was for an OoL theory. If a deity can transcend the discoverable laws of the physical world, we will not know that through science - all we will observe is an event that we have not yet discovered a law to explain. The scientific response to a gap is "we don't know". Not "there is no gap" nor "therefore god".Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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So both theists and secularists may worry: “If design is allowed as a (historically) scientific theory, couldn’t it be invoked at every turn as a theoretical panacea, stultifying inquiry as it goes? Might not design become a refuge for the intellectually lazy who have refused to study what nature actually does?” Well, of course it might. But so might the incantation “Evolution accomplished X.” ~ Stephen Meyer Is it your position that God has NEVER acted in space time?
Alan Fox @ 21
The reason I answer no is that God/gods are a matter of belief, conjecture, religious speculation...Scientifically, I can’t rule out the existence of God/gods but then, scientifically, I don’t need to as science can only consider phenomena that are detectable, reproducible, measurable... To say “I don’t know” is to encourage the search for knowledge.
But even if it were true by definition that a scientific hypothesis could involve no reference to God, nothing of much interest would follow. The Augustines and Kuypers of this world would then be obliged to concede that they had made a mistake: but the mistake would be no more than a verbal mistake. They would have to concede that they can't properly use the term 'science' in stating their view or asking their question; they would have to use some other term, such as 'sience' (pronounced like 'science'); the definition of 'sience' results from that of 'science' by deleting from the latter the clause proscribing hypotheses that include reference to God (i.e., by removing from the definition of 'science' Ruse seems to be endorsing, the clause according to which science deals only with what is natural). Their mistake would not be in what they proposed to say, but rather in how they proposed to say it. ~ Alvin Plantinga Scientists committed to philosophical naturalism do not claim to have found the precise answer to every problem, but they characteristically insist that they have the important problems sufficiently well in hand that they can narrow the field of possibilities to a set of naturalistic alternatives. Absent that insistence, they would have to concede that their commitment to naturalism is based upon faith rather than proof. Such a concession could be exploited by promoters of rival sources of knowledge, such as philosophy and religion, who would be quick to point out that faith in naturalism is no more "scientific" (i.e. empirically based) than any other kind of faith. ~ Phillip Johnsonbevets
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle @ 19
But it is high time that the term “Darwinist” stopped being used as on the one hand a general pejorative against atheists and, in the same breath, all scientists, and, still in the same breath, all people who think that the science will continue to yield understanding about how the world works, and finally, before the lungs expire, anyone who thinks that Darwin’s theory was a useful one.
I prefer the term evolutionismbevets
September 26, 2013
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The Digital Code of DNA and the Unimagined Complexity of a 'Simple' Bacteria - Rabbi M.Averick - video (notes in description https://vimeo.com/35730736 Programming of Life - Probability of a Cell Evolving - Ch. 10 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyTUSe99z6o&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLAFDF33F11E2FB840 "The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism known is 1 in 10^340,000,000. This number is 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering since there is only supposed to be approximately 10^80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!" (Professor Harold Morowitz, Energy Flow In Biology pg. 99, Biophysicist of George Mason University)
Dr. Morowitz did another probability calculation working from the thermodynamic perspective with a already existing cell and came up with this number:
DID LIFE START BY CHANCE? Excerpt: Molecular biophysicist, Horold Morowitz (Yale University), calculated the odds of life beginning under natural conditions (spontaneous generation). He calculated, if one were to take the simplest living cell and break every chemical bond within it, the odds that the cell would reassemble under ideal natural conditions (the best possible chemical environment) would be one chance in 10^100,000,000,000. You will have probably have trouble imagining a number so large, so Hugh Ross provides us with the following example. If all the matter in the Universe was converted into building blocks of life, and if assembly of these building blocks were attempted once a microsecond for the entire age of the universe. Then instead of the odds being 1 in 10^100,000,000,000, they would be 1 in 10^99,999,999,916 (also of note: 1 with 100 billion zeros following would fill approx. 20,000 encyclopedias) http://members.tripod.com/~Black_J/chance.html Punctured cell will never reassemble - Jonathan Wells - 2:40 mark of video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKoiivfe_mo
Also of interest is the information content that is derived in a cell when working from a thermodynamic perspective:
“a one-celled bacterium, e. coli, is estimated to contain the equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. Expressed in information in science jargon, this would be the same as 10^12 bits of information. In comparison, the total writings from classical Greek Civilization is only 10^9 bits, and the largest libraries in the world – The British Museum, Oxford Bodleian Library, New York Public Library, Harvard Widenier Library, and the Moscow Lenin Library – have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.” – R. C. Wysong http://books.google.com/books?id=yNev8Y-xN8YC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112 'The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica." Carl Sagan, "Life" in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894 of note: The 10^12 bits of information number for a bacterium is derived from entropic considerations, which is, due to the tightly integrated relationship between information and entropy, considered the most accurate measure of the transcendent quantum information/entanglement constraining a 'simple' life form to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium. "Is there a real connection between entropy in physics and the entropy of information? ....The equations of information theory and the second law are the same, suggesting that the idea of entropy is something fundamental..." Siegfried, Dallas Morning News, 5/14/90, [Quotes Robert W. Lucky, Ex. Director of Research, AT&T, Bell Laboratories & John A. Wheeler, of Princeton & Univ. of TX, Austin] Demonic device converts information to energy - 2010 Excerpt: "This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content," says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. "This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale," says Jarzynski. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=demonic-device-converts-inform For calculations, from the thermodynamic perspective, please see the following site: Moleular Biophysics – Information theory. Relation between information and entropy: - Setlow-Pollard, Ed. Addison Wesley Excerpt: Linschitz gave the figure 9.3 x 10^12 cal/deg or 9.3 x 10^12 x 4.2 joules/deg for the entropy of a bacterial cell. Using the relation H = S/(k In 2), we find that the information content is 4 x 10^12 bits. Morowitz' deduction from the work of Bayne-Jones and Rhees gives the lower value of 5.6 x 10^11 bits, which is still in the neighborhood of 10^12 bits. Thus two quite different approaches give rather concordant figures. http://www.astroscu.unam.mx/~angel/tsb/molecular.htm
Music and verse:
Steven Curtis Chapman - The Great Adventure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVFPjIp6nkk John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
bornagain77
September 26, 2013
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Is it your position that God has NEVER intervened in space time?
No.
Is it your position that God has NEVER acted in space time?
No. The reason I answer no is that God/gods are a matter of belief, conjecture, religious speculation. I am doubtful that gods exist independently of the various cultures, groups and individuals that have created them over the span of human existence. I see a strong similarity in the common features of religious belief, notwithstanding the variety of deities we have ended up with, to suspect that some (any) religious code or belief system that engenders social cohesion will likely be advantageous (at least in the short-term) to the group that adopt it. This is how I think humans were able to progress from family groups to civilisations and empires. Scientifically, I can't rule out the existence of God/gods but then, scientifically, I don't need to as science can only consider phenomena that are detectable, reproducible, measurable. So God/gods could exist externally to our imagination. I personally am not drawn to current dogmas but one can't rule out the unknown possibility of such an entity. We may be ants crawling around the side-walk oblivious of the Empire State building towering over us. So I don't hold that God/gods don't exist, I just very much doubt it. I certainly don't see the need to cave in to the "Intelligent Design" inference just because we are unable to explain the meaning of life, the universe and everything. To say "I don't know" is to encourage the search for knowledge.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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bevets
Yet without some restriction on the use of chance, scientists are in danger of committing a logically equivalent fallacy-one we may call the “chance-of-the-gaps fallacy.” Chance, like God, can become a stop-gap for ignorance. ~ William Dembski
I'm glad you quoted that. Chance is, indeed, a stop-gap for ignorance. It is not an explanation at all. Scientists do not invoke "chance" to explain anything - it comes into the equations as the "error term" not as the model. Dembski is equivocating, because he himself uses "chance" to mean "not-design". Science cannot invoke the supernatural as an explanation precisely because the supernatural has no "restriction". Scientific models are constrained - a model with a supernatural term is not. Scientific models are, in fact, constrained by "chance" - the best model is the one with the smallest error term. That's how models are compared. Chance is not an explanation for the gaps - it is the term we give to the gaps.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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What Darwin espoused or feared had nothing to do with the validity of support for his theory. What "Darwinism" is depends on who is using the term. It is perfectly true that science "rejects all supernatural phenomena and causation". That is because science is the domain of knowledge about natural and causation and phenomena. It does not have the tools to investigate the supernatural. The reason, I think, that Darwin, rather than other great thinkers and scientists, gets the credit or oppobrium for our understanding that we can understand the world "in purely naturalistic terms, without recourse to the supernatural or divine" is that life was, as recently as early last century, considered intrinsically unexplainable hence ideas about a "life force") except by recourse to the miraculous. Darwin's theory made it possible for, as Dawkins I think said, to "be an intellectually fulfilled atheist". That is not the same as saying that his theory indicates that there is no god. But scientists have been doing that for centuries, one phenomenon after another. We no longer marvel that God keeps the planets in motion, or that we are at the centre of the universe. We no longer appeal to the supernatural to explain how the sun moves in the sky - Darwin's theory started us on the road to not appealing to the supernatural to explain how we evolved from our evident simple beginnings. To fear that understanding that the world makes sense in terms of knowable predictive laws is no challenge to theism, but it is a challenge to the belief that theism is obviously true. In other words, it means that theism requires faith - as it has always done. Perhaps it now needs more. And because it needs more, people like Dawkins and Provine now need more than: look, here is evidence for deity X, otherwise how do you explain the miracle of life/the course of the planets/Big Bang or whatever, to be persuaded of the existence of deity X. But that's not the fault of any deity, nor is it the fault of science. I disagree profoundly with Provine, and what I would say is this: The success of science in finding laws that predict phenomenon has clear consequences: 1) any gods worth having are not going to be found by scientific inference; 2) life after death has little evidence to support it; 3) human beings collectively construct the foundation of human ethics; 4) we are purposeful animals; and 5) we have the freedom and capacity to make informed and intelligent decisions in light of the likely consequences of our actions for ourselves and others. But it is high time that the term "Darwinist" stopped being used as on the one hand a general pejorative against atheists and, in the same breath, all scientists, and, still in the same breath, all people who think that the science will continue to yield understanding about how the world works, and finally, before the lungs expire, anyone who thinks that Darwin's theory was a useful one.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Is it your position that God has NEVER acted in space time?bevets
September 26, 2013
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Occasionally, a scientist discouraged by the consistent failure of theories purporting to explain some problem like the first appearance of life will suggest that perhaps supernatural creation is a tenable hypothesis in this one instance. Sophisticated naturalists instantly recoil with horror, because they know that there is no way to tell God when he has to stop. If God created the first organism, then how do we know he didn’t do the same thing to produce all those animal groups that appear so suddenly in the Cambrian rocks? Given the existence of a designer ready and willing to do the work, why should we suppose that random mutations and natural selection are responsible for such marvels of engineering as the eye and the wing? ~ Phillip Johnson
Alan Fox @ 14
But I guess you can ask other ID proponents and get the full gamut of variation from Johnson’s simple “God did it” to Behe’s “I just don’t think random variation can explain everything”.
Scientists rightly resist invoking the supernatural in scientific explanations for fear of committing a god-of-the-gaps fallacy (the fallacy of using God as a stop-gap for ignorance). Yet without some restriction on the use of chance, scientists are in danger of committing a logically equivalent fallacy-one we may call the “chance-of-the-gaps fallacy.” Chance, like God, can become a stop-gap for ignorance. ~ William Dembski So both theists and secularists may worry: "If design is allowed as a (historically) scientific theory, couldn't it be invoked at every turn as a theoretical panacea, stultifying inquiry as it goes? Might not design become a refuge for the intellectually lazy who have refused to study what nature actually does?" Well, of course it might. But so might the incantation "Evolution accomplished X." ~ Stephen Meyer Is it your position that God has NEVER intervened in space time?bevets
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle @ 12
“Darwinism” as you like to call it, but let me just call it “science” or, even “evolutionary science”, is not a project for eliminating the divine.
[Darwins's notebooks] include many statements showing that he espoused but feared to expose something he perceived as far more heretical than evolution itself: philosophical materialism -- the postulate that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. ~ Stephen Jay Gould It is apparent that Darwin lost his faith in the years 1836-39, much of it clearly prior to the reading of Malthus. In order not to hurt the feelings of his friends and of his wife, Darwin often used deistic language in his publications, but much in his Notebooks indicates that by this time he had become a ‘materialist’ (more or less = atheist). ~ Ernst Mayr Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations. The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the adaptedness and diversity of the world solely materialistically. ~ Ernst Mayr CHARLES ROBERT DARWIN stands among the giants of Western thought because he convinced a majority of his peers that all of life shares a single, if complex, history. He taught us that we can understand life’s history in purely naturalistic terms, without recourse to the supernatural or divine. ~ Niles Eldredge Any creationist lawyer who got me on the stand could instantly win over the jury simply by asking me: 'Has your knowledge of evolution influenced you in the direction of becoming an atheist?' I would have to answer yes. ~ Richard Dawkins Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent. ~ William Provinebevets
September 26, 2013
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...the ID hypothesis for the origin of life on earth?
Oops. Though Johnson, I suspect, would give the same answer. Behe doesn't seem to have said much in public about OOL.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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It’s probably a waste of time asking this again, but what is the ID hypothesis for the origin of life on earth?
Bevets kindly provides a quote from ID founder and retired law professor, Philip Johnson.
...there is no way to tell God when he has to stop. If God created the first organism, then how do we know he didn’t do the same thing to produce all those animal groups that appear so suddenly in the Cambrian rocks? Given the existence of a designer ready and willing to do the work, why should we suppose that random mutations and natural selection are responsible for such marvels of engineering as the eye and the wing?
Though this appears to be somewhat at odds with biochemist Michael Behe, quoted in a UD article
[Darwin's theory] is an excellent explanation for some features of life, but it has sharp limits. Darwin’s theory is an amalgam of several concepts: 1) random mutation, 2) natural selection, and 3) common descent. Common descent and natural selection are very well-supported. Random mutation isn’t. Random mutation is severely constrained. So the process which produced the elegant structures of life could not have been random.
To a surprising extent prevailing evolutionary theory and intelligent design are harmonious. Both agree that the universe and life unfolded over vast ages; both agree that species could follow species in the common descent of life. They differ solely in the overriding role Darwinism ascribes to randomness. Intelligent design says that, while randomness does exist, its role in explaining the unfolding of life is quite limited.
The most essential prediction of Darwinism is that, given an astronomical number of chances, unintelligent processes can make seemingly-designed systems, ones of the complexity of those found in the cell. ID specifically denies this, predicting that in the absence of intelligent input no such systems would develop.
So Behe appears not to dispute time-scales, common descent or natural selection. He just argues from incredulity that random variation is not sufficient to achieve the diversity of extant and extinct life that we see. Then defaults to the conclusion that an "Intelligent Design" inference is thus warranted. Hard to see how anyone could turn this gut feeling into a testable hypothesis. But I guess you can ask other ID proponents and get the full gamut of variation from Johnson's simple "God did it" to Behe's "I just don't think random variation can explain everything".Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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I have no idea what this means. What “competing naturalistic possibilities” do the “schools lobbies” not want?
They don't want panspermia, the clay hypothesis or the hypothesis of Thomas Gold regarding a deep biosphere, they are usually ignored or only mentioned in a few sentences in textbooks as fringe theories. From what I have seen most textbooks tend to learn towards the RNA world hypothesis or "Metabolism first" models. The Deep sea vent hypothesis and Iron–sulfur world theory also has some support, I am not sure where the others stand.TheisticEvolutionist
September 25, 2013
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News (not sure why this is "news"):
Liddle is correct on a basic point: Darwin’s theory proposed to explain transformations of species, not origin of life.
Thank you.
That said, most Darwinians have hoped to extend the scope of the theory to encompass prebiotic “evolution” – and they routinely do.
Nope. You cannot extend the theory that self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success leads to adaptation and diversification to explain why there are self-replicators that self-replicate with heritable variance with reproductive success. However, if by "Darwinists", you mean "people interested in how life came about" or "scientists in general" and by "extend the theory" you mean "discover another theory" then, sure. Why shouldn't they?
No surprise, because their alternatives are grim: Space aliens, God, or non-Darwinian evolution theories – all of which they minimize or reject because every competitive possibility detracts from their rule.
Still not sure who "they" are, here. You do know that not all scientists are atheists? And that even if we discovered a neat plausible explanation for how the first self-replicators came about (obviously by non-Darwinian processes, see above) that would not rule out space aliens, or God?
That is the actual reason Darwin in the schools lobbies don’t want competing naturalistic possibilities taught.
I have no idea what this means. What "competing naturalistic possibilities" do the "schools lobbies" not want?
Such possibilities force an evaluation of the strength of the argument for natural selection as the driver in each and every single case instead of just equating Darwin’s theory with evolution generally. Which is, of course, what they want and need to do.
I have no idea what this means either. I can't even parse it. Darwin's theory is an extremely powerful one, but modern evolutionary theory is a great deal more than Darwin's basic theoretical mechanism (self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success), and includes research into the vectors of heredity and the mechanisms of variance, as well as the mechanisms of speciation, and also includes drift, which Darwin did not consider.
Darwinism can succeed only as a totalistic system.
This makes no sense to me at all. What do you mean by "Darwinism" in this context.
Of course natural selection does not create complex new organs in life forms in reality.
No. It's a one-handed clap anyway. You can't have "natural selection" (or any selection) without variation. "Descent with modification and natural selection" is another way of saying "self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success". Which remains a very good theory to account for "complex new organs in life forms", although obviously you disagree. The mechanism is certainly effective at creating things, which is why engineers increasingly use it to solve intractable problems and generate novel solutions.
But if all other possibilities are removed, it remains, as Richard Dawkins said back in 1993, the only possibility. And therefore, you see, it or something like it must be true.
You seem to have moved the goal posts. I thought we were talking about OoL.
I experienced much confusion in these matters until I finally understood that aspect of the struggle. Darwin’s followers will at one and the same time say their theory does not cover OOL and tout with approval papers about chemical prebiotic evolution along Darwinian lines with no inner sense of contradiction.
You are still confused. Current theories of OoL posit that the simplest Darwinian-capable entities (self-replicators replicating with heritable variance in reproductive success) were sufficiently simple to have arisen by chemistry (not, obviously by the Darwinian mechanisms because they are a prerequisite for the Darwinian mechanism). Whether you want to call them "alive" or not is a matter of semantics; the important point is that the first ones must, absent some miraculous explanation, have arisen by non-Darwinian processes. The issues are 1. What would such elementary Darwinian-capable ancestral proto-life forms have been like and how did they arise? 2. By what Darwinian means did they get from that simple state to the DNA-RNA-protein systems now ubiquitous in living things? So yes, Darwinian processes are part of the research project (because the gap in our knowledge is not simply from non-self-replicating chemistry to self-replicating proto-cells, but from self-replicating proto-cells to modern-type cells), but that is NOT to say that the Darwinian mechanism can account for that first step. Self-evidently it cannot.
Because their system is totalistic, they do not experience any contradiction, merely an awareness of territory they have not yet claimed.
Certainly science is "totalistic" in the sense that there is no no-go territory, and thus plenty of unclaimed territory. But what is the problem with that? Why should scientists cease to seek explanations? Why should we infer from lack of an current explanation that there can be none, when seeking explanations has been such a hugely productive field for centuries? Why should we assume, a priori, that unclaimed territory is, in principle, unclaimable? How could we find out that it is, without attempting to claim it? Your post, news (Denyse?) really reveals the problem here. "Darwinism" as you like to call it, but let me just call it "science" or, even "evolutionary science", is not a project for eliminating the divine. It is a project for understanding how the world works. It may be that there are aspects of the world (and OoL may turn out to be one of them) that resist explanation, and perhaps the reason for that is that there is no explanation for those aspects within the world, but only from beyond it. But science cannot determine that that is, or is not, the case, and for "Darwinists" to attempt to eliminate the possibility that some things cannot be explained in terms of predictive world laws would be absurd and impossible. And I know of no-one, Dawkins included, who would claim it. You have conflated the belief, held by a few, that there is no divine, with a) a lack of belief, common to many, in the divine and b) the working assumption, intrinsic to scientific methodology, that phenomena are predictable. Very few people hold the belief that there is no god or gods, and of those, I cannot think of a single scientist who would claim it as a scientific conclusion. If anyone did, I would say it is firstly, not science, and secondly, theologically naive. Many people do not hold the belief that there is a god or gods. Those include scientists, who, on the whole, require evidence to believe something, and regard god as hypothesis unsupported by evidence. Many people hold the belief that there is a God. Those include scientists, but I know of few scientists who hold that belief because they think it is a scientific conclusion. Of those who do, and I'd include some IDists, I think the scientific reasoning is faulty. Of those that do not, they think that God is simply not a testable scientific proposition. In other words, science is simply orthogonal to belief in God. God is not a conclusion that can ever flow from scientific reasoning. The possibility of God's existence or role in the world cannot be eliminated by science, nor can it be demonstrated by science, for the simple reason that science is art of discovering laws that predict phenomena. Discovering the putative maker of those laws is therefore beyond its methodology. Your "Darwinism" is thus a straw man - a phoney enemy that does not exist. The only enemy of ID is the bad reasoning that underlies it, and the only target of scientists who oppose it is that bad reasoning. Intelligent agency is a perfectly decent hypothesis, it is not ruled out a priori by scientific methodology, but omnipotent intelligent agencies cannot be tested, not because they cannot exist, but because a hypothesis that could explain anything can predict nothing. Science can only test constrained models. The reason that ID fails as a scientific project is because nobody is prepared to advance a constrained ID model, insisting instead on drawing an ID conclusion from the incompleteness of current constrained models. Scientific models will always be incomplete. We can draw no conclusion from their incompleteness except that the universe will always be more complicated than our models, not least because the model-makers themselves are part of that universe. Which itself may be good reason to believe in the divine. But that belief is neither a result of, nor contrary to, scientific reasoning.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 25, 2013
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It’s probably a waste of time asking this again, but what is the ID hypothesis for the origin of life on earth?
As far as I understand it, ID's concern is making inferences about intelligent design. If you want to know if some structure X shows hallmarks of design by an intelligent agent, ID is what you're after. If you want to know how X definitively originated, that's not an ID question. A given scientific analysis may tell you whether there's biological contamination on such and such surface. How the biological organism in question originated may require a different field.nullasalus
September 25, 2013
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It's probably a waste of time asking this again, but what is the ID hypothesis for the origin of life on earth?5for
September 25, 2013
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It is often said that all the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present. But if (and oh! what a big if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed. ~ Charles Darwin If it is ever found that life can originate on this world, the vital phenomena will come under some general law of nature. ~ Charles Darwin The principle of continuity renders it probable that the principle of life will hereafter be shown to be a part, or consequence of some general law. ~ Charles Darwin The origin of life was necessarily the beginning of organic evolution and it is among the greatest of all evolutionary problems. ~ George Gaylord Simpson I understand three things by Darwinism. First the fact of evolution, namely that all organisms came through a long slow process of development -- a natural process -- from a few forms and ultimately from inorganic material. ~ Michael Ruse The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. There is no third position. For this reason many scientists a century ago chose to regard the belief in spontaneous generation as a "philosophical necessity." It is a symptom of the philosophical poverty of our time that this necessity is no longer appreciated. Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing. ~ George Wald Occasionally, a scientist discouraged by the consistent failure of theories purporting to explain some problem like the first appearance of life will suggest that perhaps supernatural creation is a tenable hypothesis in this one instance. Sophisticated naturalists instantly recoil with horror, because they know that there is no way to tell God when he has to stop. If God created the first organism, then how do we know he didn't do the same thing to produce all those animal groups that appear so suddenly in the Cambrian rocks? Given the existence of a designer ready and willing to do the work, why should we suppose that random mutations and natural selection are responsible for such marvels of engineering as the eye and the wing? ~ Phillip Johnsonbevets
September 25, 2013
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A few notes on what reality tells us about 'simple' replication: Further notes on ‘minimal’ complexity: The essential genome of a bacterium – 2011 Excerpt: Using hypersaturated transposon mutagenesis coupled with high-throughput sequencing, we determined the essential Caulobacter genome at 8bp resolution, including 1012 essential genome features: 480 ORFs, 402 regulatory sequences and 130 non-coding elements, including 90 intergenic segments of unknown function. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202797/pdf/msb201158.pdf Life’s Minimum Complexity Supports ID – Fazale Rana – November 2011 Excerpt page 16: The Stanford investigators determined that the essential genome of C. crescentus consisted of just over 492,000 base pairs (genetic letters), which is close to 12 percent of the overall genome size. About 480 genes comprise the essential genome, along with nearly 800 sequence elements that play a role in gene regulation.,,, When the researchers compared the C. crescentus essential genome to other essential genomes, they discovered a limited match. For example, 320 genes of this microbe’s basic genome are found in the bacterium E. coli. Yet, of these genes, over one-third are nonessential for E. coli. This finding means that a gene is not intrinsically essential. Instead, it’s the presence or absence of other genes in the genome that determine whether or not a gene is essential.,, http://www.reasons.org/files/ezine/ezine-2011-11/ezine-2011-11.pdf To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers – July 2012 Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That’s a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,, The bioengineers, led by Stanford’s Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What’s fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell’s lifecycle processes.,,, ,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore’s Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that’s only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,, http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/ “To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must first magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is 20 kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would see then would be an object of unparalleled complexity,…we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity.” Michael Denton PhD., Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, pg.328 Moreover that city of ‘bewildering complexity’ can replicate itself seemingly effortlessly within 20 to 30 minutes. Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. – Alan H. Linton – emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282bornagain77
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OT: "Hugh Hewitt Show: Dr. Meyer on Darwin's Doubt and the Cambrian Explosion" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-09-25T17_21_01-07_00bornagain77
September 25, 2013
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That said, most Darwinians have hoped to extend the scope of the theory to encompass prebiotic “evolution” – and they routinely do.
By "prebiotic" do you mean before there was a replicator? It obviously doesn't make sense to say that there was Darwinism when there is no replication, and I've never seen anyone argue such. Some would argue that life began with the first replicator, while others would argue that the first replicator would be too simple to call life and therefore biology began sometime later. Darwinism begins once there is replication. Whether Darwinism began with the first lifeform depends on what one considers "alive."goodusername
September 25, 2013
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Thus not only is God somehow directly involved in the formation of all the biological molecules of life on earth, but He is also ultimately responsible for feeding all higher life on earth since all higher life on earth is dependent on ‘non-local’ photosynthesis for food. My question to materialistic atheists who look for life to accidentally ‘emerge’ for lifeless chemicals, especially with such astonishing evidence coming forth from quantum mechanics for a Theistic universe, is,,,
Luke 24:5 ,,,“Why do you look for the living among the dead?
here is a small clue as to where 'everlasting' life may truly be found;
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Verse and Music:
John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
Supplemental note on life after death of the temporal body:
A neurosurgeon confronts the non-material nature of consciousness - Eben Alexander - Neurosurgeon - Harvard - December 2011 Excerpted quote: To me one thing that has emerged from my experience and from very rigorous analysis of that experience over several years, talking it over with others that I respect in neuroscience, and really trying to come up with an answer, is that consciousness outside of the brain is a fact. It’s an established fact. And of course, that was a hard place for me to get, coming from being a card-toting reductive materialist over decades. It was very difficult to get to knowing that consciousness, that there’s a soul of us that is not dependent on the brain. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/he-said-it-a-neurosurgeon-confronts-the-non-material-nature-of-consciousness/ Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
Music:
Mandissa - Overcomer http://myktis.com/songs/overcomer/
bornagain77
September 25, 2013
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In the preceding video they speak of having to entangle all the material particles of the human body on a one by one basis in order to successfully teleport a human. What they failed to realize in the video is that the human body is already ‘teleporatation ready’ in that all the material particles of the human body are already ‘quantumly entangled’:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That’s a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo’s equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein-folding/
Also of note, quantum entanglement requires a non-local, beyond space and time, cause in order to explain its effect:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, Per Science Daily
The implications of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum information/entanglement in our body on a massive scale are fairly self evident:
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence/Conservation of Quantum Information) – Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video https://vimeo.com/39982578
One more line of evidence that God was directly involved in the formation of the first life on earth is photosythesis:
The Sudden Appearance Of Photosynthetic Life On Earth – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4262918 U-rich Archaean sea-floor sediments from Greenland - indications of +3700 Ma oxygenic photosynthesis (2003) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004E&PSL.217..237R
At the 21:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr Suarez explains why photosynthesis needs a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain its effect:
Nonlocality of Photosynthesis – Antoine Suarez – video – 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhMrrmlTXl4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1268s Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Gregory S. Engel, Nature (12 April 2007) Photosynthetic complexes are exquisitely tuned to capture solar light efficiently, and then transmit the excitation energy to reaction centres, where long term energy storage is initiated.,,,, This wavelike characteristic of the energy transfer within the photosynthetic complex can explain its extreme efficiency, in that it allows the complexes to sample vast areas of phase space to find the most efficient path. —- Conclusion? Obviously Photosynthesis is a brilliant piece of design by “Someone” who even knows how quantum mechanics works. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17429397 Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years – Feb. 2010 Excerpt: “We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once — a quantum superposition state, or coherence — and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.”,,, “It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics,, billion(s) of years before humans,” says Scholes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203131356.htm
bornagain77
September 25, 2013
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