Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Must CSI Include the Probabilities of All Natural Processes — Known and Unknown?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Over on another thread, there has been some discussion (among other things) about whether the concept of CSI must include a calculation of probabilities under all natural processes.  There are a number of interesting issues relating to CSI that might be worth exploring in more detail (including Learned Hand’s comments @47 of that thread, and the issues I mentioned @139).

For now, however, I want to simply flag an issue that has been harped on for years by various individuals (Liddle, ribczynski, and in the recent thread, keith s and wd400).  In summary, the argument is that without knowing all the probabilities of all possible natural processes we cannot ever be certain that some natural process didn’t produce the biological system in question, say, the bacterial flagellum.  And since we cannot be certain that some natural process didn’t do it, then we cannot ever be certain that it was designed.

The primary problem with such an argument is that it pretends to deal in certainties — exhausting all possible natural processes, known and unknown, that might have produced such a system.  In practice, it is essentially a claim that unless we are omniscient, we can never conclude design.  Apart from the wildly one-sided approach to such a position, it ignores the fact that intelligent design is about drawing reasonable inferences.  No-one has ever claimed to be able to do an exhaustive analysis of all possible natural causes, including those that haven’t been well defined or even thought up yet.  Nor does any branch of science proceed on such a basis.  Rather, we draw upon what we do know, the processes that we are aware of, and then make reasonable inferences.  That is why it is called a “design inference,” not a “design deduction” or an “exhaust-all-other-possibilities-before-we-can-say-anything” approach.  The inference to design operates, as does all reasonable scientific effort, on the basis of known processes.

Part of the discussion on the prior thread has focused on whether a natural process, like Darwinian evolution, has any reasonable probability of producing a complex, functional biological structure such as the bacterial flagellum within the resources of the known universe.  For those who don’t have the time or the stomach to wade through all the comments in the prior thread, I offer the following more succinct summary of this particular issue, in the form of a hypothetical (but, unfortunately, very true to life) conversation between an ID Proponent and a Darwinist:

ID Proponent:  Everyone from Darwin to Dawkins acknowledges that many biological systems appear designed.  Nevertheless, rather than just assuming design, in order to be scrupulously careful in our analysis we are also going to examine known natural processes to see if they have a realistic chance of forming such biological systems given the resources of the known universe.  [ID Proponent adds additional details about specification, etc., and then says:]  We’ll call this concept CSI.  Now when we look at such biological systems, say, the bacterial flagellum, and do some basic calculations on even the most fundamental informational structures required to construct the system, it appears the system contains CSI.

Darwinist:  Wait, wait!  Your calculation of CSI must include all known natural processes.  You forgot to include in your calculation my theory, which is that random mutations can be selected and preserved over time to form more complex and more functional structures.  We don’t need to form things all at once.  The bacterial flagellum came about through slight, successive changes.

ID Proponent:  Sure.  I’m happy to include known natural processes.  Have we ever seen something like a bacterial flagellum arise through Darwinian evolution?

Darwinist: No.  But that is only because it takes too long.  Indeed, my theory includes the idea that it takes so long that we shouldn’t expect to see such systems arising.  Or, alternatively, under a version called “punctuated equilibrium” that it happens quickly and in rare, largely unobserved situations.  In either case, we should not expect to see it happen.

ID Proponent:  Um, that seems pretty convenient, doesn’t it?  But OK.  Let’s include the probabilities of such a system coming about through Darwinian evolution.  What are the odds of the bacterial flagellum arising through your theory of Darwinian evolution?

Darwinist:  No-one knows.  We can’t do the calculation.

ID Proponent:  Well if there is no well-recognized way of calculating the probabilities of Darwinian evolution producing the bacterial flagellum, then I suppose I can’t calculate it either.  However, that . . .

Darwinist:  Aha!  I knew it.  You can’t do the calculation!  Therefore, your CSI concept is bunk and I win.

ID proponent:  Hold on just a minute, let me finish.  Let’s think through this.  You are telling me that I need to take into account the probabilities of your theory producing the bacterial flagellum, and then you say that under your theory you don’t know what the probabilities are?  So what do you want me to include?  After all, it is your theory, not mine.  I am only interested in known natural processes, so if we don’t know whether your theory has any reasonable probability of producing the system in question then there is nothing to include.  At most, I guess we could add a caveat to our calculations that our number doesn’t include the probabilities of Darwinian evolution because no-one knows what those probabilities are.  Would that make you happy?

Darwinist:  No, you must include a calculation of probabilities under Darwinian evolution in order for your concept of CSI to be valid.  Otherwise, CSI is bunk.  You said you were going to include all natural processes in your calculation.

ID Proponent:  As I said, I am willing to include in CSI the probabilities of all known natural processes.  But I am not going to make up probabilities for some unknown, unconfirmed, process.  Again, if you have some details to offer about your theory that would allow us to include it in the calculation, I’m happy to do so.

Darwinist:  Nope.  Can’t be done.  I’m not going to tell you what the probabilities are under my theory.  But if you want to critique my theory and show that my theory isn’t plausible, you’ll have to come up with the probabilities of my theory on your own.

ID Proponent:  Hang on.  If I want to critique your theory I have to add some details to your theory that it currently doesn’t have?  Shouldn’t you be interested in knowing whether your theory has any reasonable probability of producing something like the bacterial flagellum?  Shouldn’t Darwinist theorists be anxiously and studiously analyzing what reasonable probabilities Darwinian evolution can overcome, what it can be expected to produce given the resources of the known universe, the “edge of evolution” so to speak?

Darwinist:  We don’t need to provide any such calculations because we believe Darwinian evolution did it.  And if you can’t provide the calculations for our theory then you can’t critique our theory.  Therefore your idea of CSI is bunk and we win!

 

Comments
Arguments are so much easier when you write both sides... Dembski defined CSI as including the term P(T|H). That means you need to calculate this quantity if you are going to apply CSI. You can't replace P(T|H) with some unrelated number, like the probability of getting a specific run of 300 amino acids picking are random with uniform probability (which you presented in other comment) and claim to be saying anything about biology. If you want CSI to mean something other than that then by all means proivde another definition. Then show that biology has it , and then show that proposed explanations for biological diversity are unlikely to create it.wd400
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:32 PM
4
04
32
PM
PDT
This CSI topic sounds like a horse being beaten into the ground over and over again. I present Dembski's definition as sited in a recent blog post here: What is specified complexity? An object, event, or structure exhibits specified complexity if it is both complex (i.e., one of many live possibilities) and specified (i.e., displays an independently given pattern). A long sequence of randomly strewn Scrabble pieces is complex without being specified. A short sequence spelling the word “the” is specified without being complex. A sequence corresponding to a Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified. This definition from Dembski makes no attempt to bring RM+NS or any other natural process into the definition of CSI. Dembski, in his NFL theorem shows why he believes that RM+NS are incapable of producing CSI as defined above. Dembski then concludes that no other natural processes can produce CSI either because all of them will suffer from the NFL problem. Lastly, once Dembski has established NFL, he contends that, in light of NFL, CSI becomes a reliable design detector. The definition of CSI, therefore, is not contingent upon how the CSI came to be. It is the characteristics of the NFL theorem that allows one to use CSI as a design detector. CSI + NFL = design.Moose Dr
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:27 PM
4
04
27
PM
PDT
keiths
If he can’t guarantee that he has accounted for all possible evolutionary pathways, then he can’t guarantee that his method avoids false positives.
If Dembski isn’t omniscient he can’t make an inference to the best explanation? Talk about stacking the rules of the game. This reminds me of an old joke. The plane is going down and the pilot comes back to the cabin where there are two passengers, his best friend and his mother-in-law. Pilot: “We only have one parachute for the passengers and there are two of you. We are going to have to use an equitable method to choose which of you gets it. Fortunately, I have just such a method. I will ask you trivia questions about the sinking of Titanic and the first person who gets a wrong answer goes down with the plane.” Pilot to his best friend: “What year did the Titanic go down?” Best friend: “1912” Pilot: Correct. Pilot to his mother-in-law: “What were the names and birthdates of all of Titanic’s passengers?”Barry Arrington
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:18 PM
4
04
18
PM
PDT
KF, What's with your recent fixation on "message domination"? Also, doesn't the phrase "repetition of talking points" trigger the slightest bit of self-awareness in you?keith s
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
Joe, correct. KFkairosfocus
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
KS, message domination by repetition of talking points does not answer to the challenge of warrant you must provide for FSCO/I originating by anything but the trillion case context of reliably coming from design. Until you answer to that by empirical observation, you are simply dressing up ideological speculation and selective hyperskepticism in the lab coat. KFkairosfocus
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
keith cannot grasp the fact that he cannot demonstrate that unguided evolution can produce CSI. That is all he has to do to refute Dembski yet he has failed to even try to do so. Dembski's check is well covered.Joe
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:11 PM
4
04
11
PM
PDT
F/N: We must avoid conflating that which is imaginable or posed as a grand search for golden search hope, with what is plausibly observable. In systems often thought to have been around on our planet for c 4 BY, things of sufficient plausibility to show up, are reasonable. That plausibility needs to be backed by observed results or we have empty metaphysical speculation and selective hyperskepticism dressed up in lab coats. Where, I have pointed out that variational patterns in proteins etc reflect what has actually happened, in a further context where fold clusters indicate a deeply isolated islands of function pattern while we need hundreds to start cell based life and we need many more to cover body plan needs. All of this simply underscores that FSCO/I is not observed as a product of blind chance and mechanical necessity, and is a routine product of design. KFkairosfocus
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:10 PM
4
04
10
PM
PDT
Eric:
The primary problem with such an argument is that it pretends to deal in certainties — exhausting all possible natural processes, known and unknown, that might have produced such a system. In practice, it is essentially a claim that unless we are omniscient, we can never conclude design.
You can blame Dembski for that, as I explained to vjtorley recently:
vjtorley:
You also write that you have to consider all possible evolutionary pathways. Now, I’m willing to grant that this might be impractical for a flagellum, or even for a simple cell, but for a 100-amino-acid protein? Come on. Pull the other leg. There’s absolutely no good reason why biochemists couldn’t calculate the odds of a single molecule emerging.
I replied to that same point on the other thread:
You’re forgetting that P(T|H) includes “Darwinian and other material mechanisms”. It’s not enough to calculate the odds of a long protein assembling spontaneously. That was the mistake that Dembski made with the flagellum in No Free Lunch — treating it as a “discrete combinatorial object” instead of considering all possible evolutionary pathways to it.
vjtorley:
I also object to your phrase, “all possible evolutionary pathways.” A more rational criterion would be: “all known evolutionary pathways, after making diligent inquiry.” In real life, we make decisions based on what we know. Of course they’re fallible, but that’s life.
That would be fine, except for this: Dembski claims that his method produces no false positives. He writes:
Only things that are designed had better end up in the net. If this is the case, we can have confidence that whatever the complexity-specification criterion attributes to design is indeed designed. On the other hand, if things end up in the net that are not designed, the criterion will be worthless. I want then to argue that specified complexity is a reliable criterion for detecting design. Alternatively, I want to argue that the complexity-specification criterion successfully avoids false positives. Intelligent Design, pp. 141-142 [Emphasis added]
Dembski has written a check he can’t cash. If he can’t guarantee that he has accounted for all possible evolutionary pathways, then he can’t guarantee that his method avoids false positives. By Dembski’s own criterion, his method is “worthless”.
keith s
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
04:07 PM
4
04
07
PM
PDT
Good summary EA. Of course, when you ask many Darwinists about the probability of their theory being correct you draw a blank stare. Of course it is correct. It isn’t even proper to call it a theory. It is a fact, fact, fact (here faces turn red, spittle begins to fly and feet begin to stamp). It is nonsense to ask the probability of an event after it has occurred. Why, the probability of Darwinian evolution having occurred is exactly 1.Barry Arrington
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
03:57 PM
3
03
57
PM
PDT
For context, this all began when Eric made a claim he couldn't substantiate. I wrote:
Eric, to wd400:
The question was, what are the odds of a biological system (DNA sequence, protein, etc.) coming about by chance.
No, it wasn’t. ‘Chance’ is not the same as ‘natural processes’. Here is the question: Eric Anderson:
I hope you aren’t saying that we have to be able to calculate, with precision, the precise probability of a system arising through purely natural processes before we can determine whether CSI exists. [Emphasis added]
keiths:
You don’t need a precise value, but you do need to show that it is less than Dembski’s UPB.
Eric:
Which is trivial to do with many biological systems and has been done many times.
I asked you to link to an example. You couldn’t. Now you are calculating something entirely different and trying to pass it off as an answer to the question. Can you supply an answer to the original question, or not?
keith s
November 25, 2014
November
11
Nov
25
25
2014
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply