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Prominent NAS member trashes neo-Darwinism

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Natural selection …is not the fundamental cause of evolution.

Masatoshi Nei

Science continues to destroy Darwinism. A prominent member of the National Academy of Sciences, Masatoshi Nei, trashed neo-Darwinism in the recent peer-reviewed article: The new mutation theory of phenotypic evolution.

Haldane’s dilemma showed mathematically that natural selection could not be the major driving force of evolution. Haldane’s dilemma lead in part to the non-Darwinian theory of molecular evolution known as the “neutral theory of molecular evolution”. Neutral theory asserted natural selection was not the principal driving force of molecular evolution. However, when molecular neutral theory was presented to the world in the 1960’s, it was politically incorrect to assert the obvious consequence of the neutral theory of molecular evolution, namely: morphology, physiology, and practically anything else made of molecules would NOT be principally shaped by natural selection either.

In What are the speed limits of naturalistic evolution?, I pointed out:

And if Haldane’s dilemma were not enough of a blow to Darwinian evolution, in the 1960’s several population geneticists like Motoo Kimura demonstrated mathematically that the overwhelming majority of molecular evolution was non-Darwinian and invisible to natural selection. Lest he be found guilty for blasphemy, Kimura made an obligatory salute to Darwin by saying his non-Darwinian neutral theory “does not deny the role of natural selection in determining the course of adaptive evolution”. That’s right, according to Kimura, adaptive evolution is visible to natural selection while simultaneously molecular evolution is invisible to natural selection. Is such a position logical? No. Is it politically and intellectually expedient? Absolutely!

But now 4 decades later, the inevitable consequence of Haldane’s dilemma and Kimura’s neutral theory may be ending the uneasy truce between neo-Darwinists and neutralists.

Nei writes:

For the last six decades, the dominant theory of evolution has been neo-Darwinism, which was developed by the three founders of theoretical population genetics, Fisher (1), Wright (2), and Haldane (3), and was later supported by various evolutionists (4). Neo-Darwinism asserts that natural selection is the driving force of evolution,
….
In the last four decades, the study of molecular evolution has shown that a majority of amino acid substitutions in proteins are neutral or nearly neutral

However, most evolutionists still believe in neo-Darwinism with respect to phenotypic evolution and are not interested in neutral evolution (19,22).

Mayr (23) stated that neutral mutations apparently occur at the molecular level, but because they do not affect phenotypic characters, they are of little interest to evolutionists.
….

By contrast, Nei (17, 24, 25) argued that because phenotypic characters are ultimately controlled by DNA sequences, both molecular and phenotypic evolution must occur in similar [non Darwinian] ways. He also suggested that a considerable portion of morphological evolution is caused by neutral or nearly neutral mutations, and the driving force of evolution is mutation at both molecular and phenotypic levels.
….
As mentioned in the introduction, a majority of current evolutionists believe in neo-Darwinism. In one of the most popular textbooks on evolution, Futuyma (ref. 20, p. 10) states that evolutionary change is a population process in which one genotype replaces other ones, and for this process to occur, mutation is quite ineffective because of its low rate of occurrence, whereas even the slightest intensity of natural selection can bring about substantial change in a realistic amount of time. He also states “Natural selection can account for both slight and great differences among species, and adaptations are traits that have been shaped by natural selection.” Although this type of statement is quite common in the evolutionary literature, it is obvious that any advantageous genotype is produced by mutation including all kinds of genetic changes. Natural selection occurs as a consequence of mutational production of different genotypes, and therefore it is not the fundamental cause of evolution.

Historically, the word mutationism was used to refer to William Bateson’s saltationism or similar ideas, in which natural selection plays little role. Later Morgan (109) presented a more reasonable form of mutationism taking into account the role of natural selection. His view was abstract and based on a few lines of speculative arguments. However, recent molecular studies of phenotypic evolution support the basic ideas of his view and have extended it to a more comprehensive view presented in this article. If the new form of mutation theory described here is right, even in its crudest form, more emphasis should be given on the roles of mutation in the study of evolution.

Notes:

1. ID sympathizer Dr. John Davison, who has spent much of his recent life promoting the works of William Bateson, should be much encouraged with these developments. It was through Davison I learned of Bateson’s wonderful ideas.

2. Richard Dawkins wrote of Kimura in Blindwatchmaker. Dawkins argued Kimura’s ideas wouldn’t overturn Darwinism since Darwinism operated at the higher level of adaptation whereas Kimura’s non-Darwinian theory operated at the lower level of molecules. But the reductionists are now getting taste of their own medicine. If the Darwinism doesn’t operate at the molecular level, then why should we expect it to operate at much higher levels like morphology and physiology either?

3. Lewontin gives a powerful example of neutral evolution at the morphological level. Rhinos have either 1 horn or 2 horns. Did natural selection cause the evolution of one horn in one case, and 2 horns in another? Unlikely.

4. Salthe pointed out a fundamental contradiction in Fisher’s fundamental theorem of natural selection. Selection is the enemy of diversity. Salthe realized the obvious problem of trying to account for the abundance of diversity through a mechanism which reduces diversity.

5. At least 3 signatories of the Discovery Institute’s Dissent from Darwin list anticipated these recent developments. Davison, Salthe, and Ho. Ho managed to present echoes of these ideas 30 years ago in a peer-reviewed journal. See: An eloquent but bogus non-review by Dawkins.

a relative lack of natural selection may be the prerequisite for major evolutionary advance

Mae Wan Ho

Comments
Darwin didn’t think the “fittest” were “those which survived”. So, he then thought they were the ones that didn’t survive?
No. Read the full sentence. Then note that the "expected" refers to a mathematical expectation: I don't know how familiar you are with probability theory. Atom - we're not getting anywhere. How about survival? How about an actual example where a more complex organism is less fit than its simpler counterpart? BobBob O'H
July 25, 2007
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Bob-- As to the link your provide to TalkOrigins, I find their refutation of "survival of the fittest" to be quite inadequate. The first reason they give is that Darwin seemed to distance himself from that terminology. Yet, Darwinists today sure don't distance themselves from it, nor did Thomas Huxley it Darwin's time. The second refutation suggests that if it it has ever been conjectured that the "fittest" will perish, then obviously were not dealing with a tautology. But, of course, anyone can conjecture anything in the world they want to. How do unsubstantiated conjectures prove anything. Finally, in their third attempt, they begin this way: "The fittest, to Darwin, were not those which survived, but those which could be expected to survive on the basis of their traits." Don't you see how illogical this statement is on the face of it? Darwin didn't think the "fittest" were "those which survived". So, he then thought they were the ones that didn't survive? This is again the same "a posteriori" thinking I was writing about: Darwin knows who "survived"; he know the "traits" of those who "survived"; he then defines "fitness" as the "traits" of those who "survive". To me, this isn't science, it's just guesswork and "just-so" storytelling. Evolutionary biologists have been following suit ever since. Now, in those limited areas where NS (as it is now called; I think in will one day be simply called "adaptation") is known to work---in bacteria, e.g., "fitness" is easy to predict, and easy to define. E.g., if we put a whole bunch of E. Coli on a culture dish that has only lactose, then only those bacteria that can metabolize lactose are 'fit'. All others are 'unfit'. And we can 'predict' that those bacteria which either can't metabolize, or cannot change over to metabolize, will perish. But stray from these extremely limited instances, and "fitness" becomes "jello".PaV
July 25, 2007
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And again, to ask the simple question that began this: How can NS select for increasing complexity when simpler mechanisms can (and do) replicate much quicker, more easily and robustly?Atom
July 25, 2007
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No. I’m not the making a claim. It’s other people who are claiming that there is no selective advantage to complexity: I’m just asking for their evidence.
We have shown how complexity is a hinderance and pointed out that only when a sufficient amount of functional complexity arises, can we even hope for a benefit. But even then, empirical evidence suggests (see Dawkin's experiment with v-orgs) that simpler, minimal replicators will be selected for when NS operates on informational replication systems. The costs of increased complexity are high; unless the presumed benefits (which you have yet to outline at all) can offset the very real costs (already outlined for you) then Natural Selection will work to eliminate nascent complexity whereever it can. And indeed, this is what the experimental evidence bears out.Atom
July 25, 2007
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No. I’m not the making a claim. It’s other people who are claiming that there is no selective advantage to complexity: I’m just asking for their evidence.
---Bob Following what I just wrote about fitness, you're taking refuge in what we see in the world. This makes Darwinism an "a posteriori" science, not an "a priori" one. It can't make objective definitions about what fitness is, and thus, can't make predictions about what we would expect to see. It's in this way "unfalsifiable". BTW, you need a shave! What's that you're drinking?PaV
July 25, 2007
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I would argue that the definition of fitness is the same: what’s happening is that the environment is changing: as population size decreases, this reduces the chance of finding a mate, so fitness decreases.
----Bob But this is what I mean about fitness being "jello". You're (1) now defining fitness in terms of the population; (2) saying that the "killer" extinct is less fit (so how did it evolve?); (3) and omitting the problem that if the "killer" trait is at first helpful (relative to the population), it then becomes unhelpful. (It's as if the rats knew how to count: 100 is too many; but 10 is about right). This fluid notion of what fitness is makes it an almost useless concept. As I said before (I haven't looked at your link), all's you have to do as an evolutionary biologist is see which animals are alive, and figure out how they're better than the ones that aren't alive---you then define that as "fitness". You have to admit, that's a fairly easy task.PaV
July 25, 2007
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Bob, shouldn’t you be trying to show that the advantages of complexity offset its adverse affects?
No. I'm not the making a claim. It's other people who are claiming that there is no selective advantage to complexity: I'm just asking for their evidence. BobBob O'H
July 25, 2007
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err...there to be a trade-off... Sometimes my fingers just pick a word that sounds close....multiple times, evidently. :PPhinehas
July 25, 2007
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Bob: So, show me that these adverse effects are not offset by the advantages of complexity. What advantages of complexity? So far, it looks like the only advantage proposed for complexity is that if enough complexity accumulates over time, then perhaps a new function will arise that hopefully isn't so disadvantageous as to doom the organism outright so that maybe it will be able to survive in a new niche (thankfully not having to compete against its predecessors, since they are much more fit) which hopefully isn't already inhabited. Of course, the problem is that while the complexity is accumulating to the point that a new function is available, it is difficult to imagine how their can be a trade-off. If the organism is saddled with complexity, but has yet to develop anything that would allow for their to be a trade-off, then it seems it would be quickly selected against by the preserving power of natural selection long before any new sort of functional advantage could arise. You've made an appeal to positive trade-offs. Why shouldn't the burden of proof be upon you to show that complexity can truly be advantageous, especially during the period where it is not yet able to provide a new function that sufficiently separates it from its biological peers.Phinehas
July 25, 2007
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I'm going to propose something akin to Godwin's Law. Linking to TalkOrigins results in automatic loss of the debate.tribune7
July 25, 2007
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So, show me that these adverse effects are not offset by the advantages of complexity. Bob, shouldn't you be trying to show that the advantages of complexity offset its adverse affects? Why should it be considered axiomatic that complexity increases survivability?tribune7
July 25, 2007
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Acquiesce - you didn't understand my point (I suspect you're still not understanding the importance of trade-offs in thinking about these points). Yes, complexity can have adverse effects, but it can also have positive effects. If the positive effects more than offset all of the negative effects, then overall a more complex organism will have a higher fitness. So, show me that these adverse effects are not offset by the advantages of complexity. BobBob O'H
July 25, 2007
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I add, re Acq in 128: recall that a major argument in gradualism, is that small increments in survival factors have significant population impacts across time, so the impacts of these factors have to kick in real early, long before we get to major body plan alterations . . .kairosfocus
July 25, 2007
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Bob: I’d still like to see evidence that the overall effect of an increase in complexity is to decrease fitness. Anyone?
Atom gave you this answer: increased reproduction interval length (between successive generations); lack of robustness (ability of offspring to reach reproductive maturity) and a reduction of fecundity (number of offspring per replication event). All of these factors mean that higher organisms compared to their distant relatives show a significant reduction in overall fitness.Acquiesce
July 25, 2007
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H'mm: Let's see, over in the July 6 Explanatory Adequacy thread, Bob diverted the focus and demanded an answer on his terms from one person. That person answered, and others substantiated, and then it was pointed out that the issue Bob raised was already addressed adequately in the original post, complete with an excerpt. [Sounds like subject shifting to me, I won't use the usual names for the fallacies involved -- cf 123; perhaps it is inadvertent.] It is thus interesting to excerpt from Sal's original citation of the NAS member, Nei:
In the last four decades, the study of molecular evolution has shown that a majority of [observed, naturally occurring . . . ?] amino acid substitutions in proteins [coded for in DNA] are neutral or nearly neutral …However, most evolutionists still believe in neo-Darwinism with respect to phenotypic evolution and are not interested in neutral evolution (19–22) . . . . By contrast, Nei (17, 24, 25) argued that because phenotypic characters are ultimately controlled by DNA sequences, both molecular and phenotypic evolution must occur in similar [non Darwinian] ways. He also suggested that a considerable portion of morphological evolution is caused by neutral or nearly neutral mutations, and the driving force of evolution is mutation at both molecular and phenotypic levels . . . . In one of the most popular textbooks on evolution, Futuyma (ref. 20, p. 10) . . . states ‘Natural selection can account for both slight and great differences among species, and adaptations are traits that have been shaped by natural selection.’’ Although this type of statement is quite common in the evolutionary literature, it is obvious that any advantageous genotype is produced by mutation including all kinds of genetic changes. Natural selection occurs as a consequence of mutational production of different genotypes, and therefore it is not the fundamental cause of evolution . . .
In short, absent a credible SOURCE of successful – i.e. functionally superior [and in our context more complex] -- new genetic information, natural selection has nothing to work on apart from stabilising the population as it is by eliminating unfit “sports.” NS eliminatres the unfit, but cannot credibly explain the ARRIVAL of the fittest, and random walk based “searches” as observed overhelmingly lead to neutral changes not the sort of innovative ones we would need to ground NDT. This is of course underscored by Behe's recent note on malaria in the face of chloroquinone. [BTW, I am annoyed to see that Bob is till pointing us to TO “debunking” articles as late as no 125 just above. FYI Bob, the article says nothing and addresses nothing serious in say Johnson's 1991 notes on the tautology issue, and issue that has long since been acknowledged as cogent in the serious level literature. If “the fittest” are assessed based on differential reproductive success, then by definition those who reproduce themselves well are “the fittest.” And, this simply fails to explain the ARRIVAL of the complexity and information behind it we are speaking to. [There are ways around this, but as Johnson long ago noted, they undercut the force of arguments rooted in Natural Selection and there is sa tendency to drift right back to tautological formulations. Since Johnson 1991 is easily accessible, and Nei above underscores the basic point, I will not now go into further long excerpts.] Now, too, on this thread, I and others have had to point to problems such as improper burden of proof shifting, citation of highly questionable and tendentious sources, use of just-so stories, dismissal of relevant factors – i.e the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) principle and what we know about complexity in systems from our experience of such, the basic datum that complex, functionally specified information-rich systems in our experience invariably are the products of design. And more. The only real point I see Bob has made, as Acquiesce made first [121 relative 72], is that where complexity accesses a new ecological niche via a radically different body plan or reproductive isolation otherwise [e.g. founder principle], then it could be rewarded by sufficient reproductive success to thrive. But, that “exception” only gets us back to Nei's point, and Behe's point and Johnson's point and Dembski's point and . . . namely: where do such new SUCCESSFUL and complex body plans come from, in a world where there is such a thing as a configurational space for digital information systems [and analogue ones too . . . look at classical stat mechanics on phase space cells] which rapidly exhausts probabilistic resources. E.g. 500 bits relative to a unique state soon enough exhausts the number of quantum states in the known universe across its reasonable lifetime. And more broadly 1 in 10^150 is a reasonable threshold of such isolation of functional islands that they are not credibly findable on that gamut. Further, as Aq points out in 123, the issue is to account for gradualistc increments in complexity across generations in a population within a given ecological zone such that there is competition for passing on genes in the population across time, as manifested in phenotypes -- in a context where as Atom has highlighted, that should use up more energy, more materials, more development and growth time, and has more that can go wrong. Those factors all point to reductions in reproductive success, and would tend to do what the fossil record reports: stabilise the phenotypes. Put the two issues together and you see the other issue come out: the stasis and suddenness of new types of organisms that is all over the fossil record, the paltry number of celebrated “links” notwithstanding. (I gather they are now fewer than in late C19, contrary to Darwin's hopes, and contrary to what one would reasonably expect from the “almost unmanageably rich” fossil collections we now have and have had for decades.) So, let's focus back on the core issues int his thread and the July 6 thread, which is materially related. [We are still waiting over there, and you have some serious explaining to do.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 25, 2007
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Next he tried to solve this problem by reference to trade-off, which has no bearing on my argument (as my argument refers to surviving offspring, not just numbers of offspring) – this is the classic red-herring (i.e. dragging a red-herring through the argument).
I'm sorry, but whether you were referring to offspring or surviving offspring doesn't matter for the trade-off argument. What matters is that fitness is affected by several life history characteristics, and a trait can affect more than one: it can increase one life history characteristic, and decrease another. This is the trade-off. If the overall effect is to increase fitness, then fitness is increased. Some people here have argued that an increase in complexity can lead to an increasing chance of failure. This, on its own, would decrease fitness. But if it also increased fitness by having a positive effect on life history traits, then he overall effect might still be to increase fitness. I'd still like to see evidence that the overall effect of an increase in complexity is to decrease fitness. Anyone? BobBob O'H
July 24, 2007
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PaV - what you're describing is called "evolutionary suicide". This sort of behaviour can evolve, if there is migration between populations. I would argue that the definition of fitness is the same: what's happening is that the environment is changing: as population size decreases, this reduces the chance of finding a mate, so fitness decreases. The tautology claim is debunked here. Mathematically fitness is an expectation, not what is observed. BobBob O'H
July 24, 2007
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The rats that are killed won’t produce offspring, so therefore will be less fit. The level of selection is (usually) the individual, not (as you seem to imply) the population.
---Bob Well, here's where the jello comes in. If, after the in-fighting took place, there were 10 left out of an initial hundred, it would be said that they are the fittest. Now, if the 10 started to fight, and only five survive, they would be termed the fittest. Now, if the five fight, and only one survives, it is (since fitness is determined between members of the same competing species, and, apparently has nothing to do with populations), by the definition you want to use, the fittest of them all---and he/she can't reproduce; viz., there's no one to mate with. So the fitness of the fittest memeber of the species is zero. Admittedly, this is a reductio ad absurdum, but it makes a valid point about the fluid notion of fitness definitions. In the end, it can be whatever you want it to be. Just look at the survivors---and call them the fittest. Yes, this is the tautology I believe Philip Johnson points out: who survive? the fittest? who are the fittest? the ones that survive.PaV
July 24, 2007
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For the benefit of those lurkers not familiar with evolution theory, Bob is claiming that you cannot compare fitness (the number of surviving offspring) between bacteria and humans (for example) because they don’t compete. He is right – but that’s not my argument and Bob knows this. My argument compares the fitness between the parent bacterial population and a new mutant which does compete with the rest of the population. Bob first replied by attacking my understanding of evolution theory (we call this ad hominem – attacking the person not his argument). Then Bob suggested I learn from books written by famous, highly intelligent evolutionists who, by implication, know more about evolution than myself (we call this the argument from authority) Next he tried to solve this problem by reference to trade-off, which has no bearing on my argument (as my argument refers to surviving offspring, not just numbers of offspring) – this is the classic red-herring (i.e. dragging a red-herring through the argument). Since then he has resorted to using the strawman tactic (i.e. changing my argument into something it is not then attack his own made up version of my argument). Mix in a few word games about fitness, even though we can experimentally prove that organisms exhibiting reduced fitness quickly lose out in the battle for survival (like I mentioned above, those that gain resistance being reintroduced back into the parent stock – like introducing domesticated animals back into the wild stock).Acquiesce
July 24, 2007
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So, in the example where an individual produces 2 offspring after 100 years, as compared to one which produces 1 offspring after one year, if they both only reproduce once, you would claim that the one producing 2 offspring is fitter. Is that right?
I believe he meant number of surviving offspring in relation to a set number of organisms over a given period of time. At least that is the charitable reading would render. Basically, reproduction interval length (between successive generations), robustness (ability of offspring to reach reproductive maturity) and fecundity (number of offspring per replication event) are the factors we're examining. And unfortunately for Darwinism, in the real world, the simpler the organism, the better they do on all three counts (speaking generally). I believe you have all the information you need to now answer Aq's questions.Atom
July 24, 2007
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Bob: Acquiesce - You’re claiming that fitness is highest in bacteria, as compared to more complex organisms. That only makes sense if the organisms are competing.
I know that. I even made a possible solution to this problem using that [see - 72]. Lets not keep going over old ground and explain to us how NS can direct for higher complexity whilst simultaneously selecting for lower fitness.
I propose a solution: Only when changes are so large that the mutated organism no longer competes with its parent stock (producing an entirely new type / lifestyle) can the organism remain despite its reduced fitness. This would obviously mean it bypasses NS.
Acquiesce
July 24, 2007
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Let me ask you a question Bob We have a bacterial colony, they all reproduce every 20 minutes or so. One bacterium arises that, due to some mutation, can only reproduce once an hour. In this example (which is seen with bacteria that gain resistance to antibiotics etc, being introduced back into the parent population i.e. those not resistance to the antibiotic) Q1. Which is the fittest organism? Q2. Which will eventually win out in the battle for selection?Acquiesce
July 24, 2007
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Yeah good post, anything un-relating to fitness would eventually be lost creating as you put it ‘a leaner meaner replication machine’. The question why/how NS first produced those traits must be questioned. I believe orthodox evolution has it totally backwards. If higher organisms evolved from lower ones, it couldn't have done so by NS. The finely balanced ecological system is also evidence against NS’s role in evolution (for example, imagine if higher organisms evolved the enzymes necessary to digest cellulose). Many traits, which would greater improve the fitness of an organism could potentially be apocalyptic to the overall survival of our ecosystem. It doesn’t take a genius to work out the implications of the example just given. Certain designs cannot be ‘too good’ – for example, whilst pitcher plants do a wonderful job of collecting flies, if they evolved an even better design they could potentially decimate our ecosystem by simply being too effective. Darwinists, of course would see all of life evolving in union, and no particular design ever becoming too good. They of course base this assumption on the fact that – you guessed it – our ecosystem is finely balanced.Acquiesce
July 24, 2007
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Here is the definition of fitness as used in population genetics from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitness_%28biology%29Jehu
July 24, 2007
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Acquiesce - Let me explain your argument. You wrote
Fitness is a measure of the numbers of surviving offspring (nothing else).
So, in the example where an individual produces 2 offspring after 100 years, as compared to one which produces 1 offspring after one year, if they both only reproduce once, you would claim that the one producing 2 offspring is fitter. Is that right? I hope people can see why lifetime reproductive success isn't the same as fitness. The definition of fitness is more complex, in terms of life histories it's defined as the Malthusian growth rate - for example, see my lecture notes from a couple of years ago (pdf). There are other definitions, but they're similar enough for our purposes. BobBob O'H
July 24, 2007
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any new trait of any level of complexity, would take more time to develop – this in turn would lead to an increase in gestation time
To this I would add: -What I mentioned before, more complexity equals more potential points of failure. This is an objective fact. -More complexity means more informational content to be stored, copied, and proof-read during the replication process. This leads to greater energy needs and longer replication times. I believe Darwinists are completely on the wrong track with this one. I think it was Dawkins who performed experiments on virtual organisms (I'll call them "vorgs" for short)and found a trend towards increasing simplicity: vorgs would cast off parts of their genomes in order to be leaner, meaner replication machines, which would give them an edge. Over time, the organisms would get simpler and simpler - the exact opposite of the actual biological trend towards greater complexity over time. Of course his results were still somehow held up as evidence for Darwinism (could he do anything else?), but the meaning of the experiment is clear to the casual observer.Atom
July 24, 2007
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Hence, you have to ask whether an increase in complexity leads to an increase in fitness as compared to individuals in the same population (i.e. the same species, in the same area).
That’s precisely what I’m asking – I’m asking how, under a gradualistic scheme an increase in complexity –in the form of a new trait– if it doesn’t produce an entirely new type (which no longer competes with its parent population) can become fixed into the population because there is no trait beyond that contained by bacteria which in anyway increases fitness. For example, any new trait of any level of complexity, would take more time to develop – this in turn would lead to an increase in gestation time. If the new trait doesn’t enable that individual to out-compete other members of the population (i.e. produce more surviving offspring) the trait, however nifty and complex, would be weeded out by NS – not selected!Acquiesce
July 24, 2007
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"An organism that passes on 50% of its genes is less fit than one that passes on 100%; an organism that has an average of 2.5 surviving offspring is less fit that has 100. These were the things brought up earlier and they are indeed valid points." Only ceteris paribus. Which is why I brought up trade-offs.
No, since I already qualified my statement with "surviving". Two organisms, A and B, of the same species, one produces 100 surviving, viable, reproducing offspring the other 2 of the same. By what method of accounting would you say the organism that only produces 2 is "more fit" than the organism that produces 100 equally viable offspring? There is an actual issue here. Re-defining "fitness" is not going to solve the issue. Atom PS Our problem is with you referring us to TO as a reliable source of information, which it is most certainly not. So please upgrade your source material if you don't want us to complain.Atom
July 24, 2007
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I also [see tribune 111] would like to know how Bob defines fitness (if is isn't the numbers of surviving offspring).Acquiesce
July 24, 2007
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Acquiesce: Fitness is a measure of the numbers of surviving offspring (nothing else). No, that’s lifetime reproductive success.
Is Bob playing word games with me or what?Acquiesce
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