Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Elephant in the Room

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We are regularly told by proponents of evolutionary theory, from Darwin right up to the present day, that purely natural processes, such as random mutations and natural selection, have the ability to build, construct, fashion, purpose and create remarkable machines. Machines that rival, and in many cases surpass, our most advanced technologies.

We are assured in no uncertain terms that such natural processes have this great creative power. Yet when examples are sought, we are invariably given examples that either did not come about through purely natural processes (see Berra’s Blunder), or examples that are trivial in scope. But nothing that even comes close to verifying the grand claims of the evolutionary creation story.

There is a huge elephant in the room.

Why, if evolutionary processes are so incredibly adept at producing remarkable technologies that surpass our capabilities, do we not see such evolutionary processes being put to good use on a regular basis?

All around the world, every day, millions upon millions of new inventions, designs, projects, programs, and other creations are being pursued. Yet the most awesome creative force of all, so we are assured, is for some reason notably absent. Occasionally someone will claim that evolutionary processes were responsible for creating this or that product (the NASA antenna being the example most often trotted out, even though it is not a proper example of purely natural evolutionary processes). Sometimes someone will assert that an “evolutionary algorithm” has produced something mildly interesting (like the questionable and potentially flawed Avida results touted several years ago in Nature). But by and large, this alleged remarkable creative force is absent, irrelevant, a “no show,” when it comes to actually creating things in the real world.

Now the evolutionary proponent will no doubt argue that the reason is simple: not enough time. Easily impressed with all the zeroes in a number like the billions of years of Earth’s history, the evolutionist reposes faith in the power of deep time to take what is clearly an impotent process in the short term and turn it into the most potent creative force in the long term. But when the actual numbers are reviewed and the actual requirements for construction of functional creations assessed, it becomes clear that those zeroes in the age of the Earth or even the age of the universe are but a rounding error and are unhelpful in addressing the larger issue.

To be sure, a trial-and-error process like random mutations and natural selection can occasionally do something interesting – if there is a large enough population and a strong enough selective pressure. Behe has spent time searching for this “edge of evolution,” while in stark contrast most evolutionists never even bother thinking about what evolutionary processes can actually accomplish in the real world, simply taking it as an article of faith that “with evolution nothing is impossible.”

More to the point, such minor changes even when they do show up do not constitute evidence for the larger evolutionary claims. Particularly when many of the alleged examples of evolution’s power turn out to be, on closer examination, examples of breaking a machine, rather than building it.

So the elephant in the room remains. Design is a critical aspect of our modern lives. Design occurs across the spectrum of disciplines and across the globe on a near constant basis. Yet the most potent creative force that allegedly ever existed, that of evolutionary mechanisms, is noticeable in its near complete absence – dabbling at the fringes, only occasionally participating, rarely influencing, never doing much of any real consequence.

We might be forgiven for wondering if perhaps this is all the evolutionary mechanisms have to contribute.

Or all that they ever did.

Comments
bornagain77: That Darwinists erroneously believe such trivial adaptations prove that unguided material processes can build the unfathomed complexity we find in life? It's hardly trivial. If you could eat plastic residues while everyone else starved, you would think it was the most important trait in the world! And if you didn't know its origin, you would say it was a marvel of engineering, well beyond what could be expected from chance alone.Zachriel
March 2, 2015
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Zachriel: "That doesn’t meet the requirements of the algorithm" What algorithm? Why is my Hamlet algorithm less valid than yours? My point is that you can always build an algorithm which does what you want: it all depends on how much added information you use. If you choose to ignore that your algorithms add a lot of information that could not be present in any "natural" system, then my Hamlet algorithm is as valid as yours. So, the point is simple: a) If you already know the solution, you can easily find it by an "evolutionary" search (see also the famous Weasel algorithm. Amazing! You only have to add some handicaps (some random search, for example), just to avoid writing down the solution directly. b) If you don't know the solution, but know a lot of things about it, you can find the solution with some ease, according to how much you know. You just have to add the information you know in your algorithm. What is new in all this? What has this to do with Wagner's statements, which were the beginning of the discussion? I still wonder... However, can you go from SUBJECTIVISM to EXTEMPORIZER by one letter changes, and through a sequence of correct 12 letter words? That was my question. And beware, I am not at all sure that it is not possible. Just curious. A simple yes (with the list of words) or no will do.gpuccio
March 2, 2015
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It’s within a few steps of a known biological structure. "That’s the whole point!" The whole point being exactly what pray tell? :) That Darwinists erroneously believe such trivial adaptations prove that unguided material processes can build the unfathomed complexity we find in life? Well if that is 'the whole point' then you Darwinists had me when you erroneously claimed the same thing for varying bird beaks! :)bornagain77
March 2, 2015
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gpuccio: It’s beautiful to agree with your interlocutor, even if he is a talented discussant for whom “a few hundred amino acids” and “a couple of aminoacids” are essentially the same thing. They are measures of very different things. If you didn't know the origin of nylonase, the ID theorist might consider it some incredible feat of engineering! But we 'saw' the origin of nylonase, and we do know its origin. It's within a few steps of a known biological structure. That's the whole point!Zachriel
March 2, 2015
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guppcio: And I don’t believe at all that if you add “letter addition or deletion, recombination, concatenation” connectivity is restored. With every member of the population being a properly spelled word. After about three minutes of churning with a population of 1000, this is what the algorithm came up with: word, length, Scrabble® breakfasters; 12, 21 deliberating; 12, 16 lockstitches; 12, 23 characterless; 13, 20 denominations; 13, 16 characterizing; 14, 31 In the dictionary we used, there are only about 6e3 words of length 12, 13, 14 each. The search space for a 14-letter word is about 4e16, but the total number of mutants tested was only about 5e6 or just the tiniest sliver of possible combinations. gpuccio: a) I have the full text of Hamlet as an oracle. b) I take a random string of the same length. c) I change the first letter randomly, checking with the first letter in the oracle. d) As soon as it is the same, I fix it. e) I pass to the second letter, and so on. That doesn't meet the requirements of the algorithm, which is that each word must be properly spelled, or the sequence is stillborn.Zachriel
March 2, 2015
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Zachriel: It's beautiful to agree with your interlocutor, even if he is a talented discussant for whom "a few hundred amino acids" and "a couple of aminoacids" are essentially the same thing. :) By the way, why don't you take a look at my many posts about dFSCI and the design inference? So I could be able to tell you: "That’s ID theory for ya!" It would simply be fair...gpuccio
March 2, 2015
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Piotr: Before I comment on the other points, are you saying that you cannot do with 12 letter words what you did with 5 letter words? Because, you know, that was exactly my point! :) Zachriel seems unable to do that too. OK, let's go to your other points. The number of 12 letter words, IOWs my example, is about double than the number of 5 letter words (your example). So, you cannot justify the impossibility with the concept that "the number of words with n letters drops rather quickly as n increases". After all, I have not taken 30 letter words. Obviously, it's the huge increase in the search space which is the cause of the impossibility. Which is my point. And I don't believe at all that if you add "letter addition or deletion, recombination, concatenation" connectivity is restored. Please show that it is true. But remember that you have to work with simple variation (possibly simple events), and that the search space increases too (just think what letter addition means). Now, Zachriel has obviously stated that he can evolve anything he likes. And he is correct. Me too. As I have said, I can evolve the full text of Hamlet. It's easy: a) I have the full text of Hamlet as an oracle. b) I take a random string of the same length. c) I change the first letter randomly, checking with the first letter in the oracle. d) As soon as it is the same, I fix it. e) I pass to the second letter, and so on. I am sure that any old computer would evolve the result in a very short computational time. As Zachriel would say, "in less than the lifetime of a mayfly". :) See how powerful an evolutionary search is? Finally, I see that you don't like QUIXOTICALLY. A pity, it was a fascinating word! OK, why don't you try with SUBJECTIVISM? I suppose we can leave EXTEMPORIZER as an outcome, can't we?gpuccio
March 2, 2015
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Me_Think, I call your (and Wagner's) literature bluff. Provide real world empirical evidence that falsifies ID. A single molecular machine produced by unguided Darwinian processes will do the trick:
"Grand Darwinian claims rest on undisciplined imagination" Dr. Michael Behe Michael Behe - No Scientific Literature For Evolution of Any Irreducibly Complex Molecular Machines http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5302950/ Calling Nick Matzke's literature bluff on molecular machines - DonaldM UD blogger - April 2013 Excerpt: So now, 10 years later in 2006 Matzke and Pallen come along with this review article. The interesting thing about this article is that, despite all the hand waving claims about all these dozens if not hundreds of peer reviewed research studies showing how evolution built a flagellum, Matzke and Pallen didn’t have a single such reference in their bibliography. Nor did they reference any such study in the article. Rather, the article went into great lengths to explain how a researcher might go about conducting a study to show how evolution could have produced the system. Well, if all those articles and studies were already there, why not just point them all out? In shorty, the entire article was a tacit admission that Behe had been right all along. Fast forward to now and Andre’s question directed to Matzke. We’re now some 17 years after Behe’s book came out where he made that famous claim. And, no surprise, there still is not a single peer reviewed research study that provides the Darwinian explanation for a bacterial flagellum (or any of the other irreducibly complex biological systems Behe mentioned in the book). We’re almost 7 years after the Matzke & Pallen article. So where are all these research studies? There’s been ample time for someone to do something in this regard. Matzke will not answer the question because there is no answer he can give…no peer reviewed research study he can reference, other than the usual literature bluffing he’s done in the past. https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/andre-asks-an-excellent-question-regarding-dna-as-a-part-of-an-in-cell-irreducibly-complex-communication-system/#comment-453291 ,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA
And yet, despite rejecting Intelligent Design as a ‘matter of principle’, in 2014 Franklin Harold admitted:
“we may still be missing some essential insight" Franklin Harold - 2014
the 'non-Darwinian', natural genetic engineering, James Shapiro admits the same lack of evidence:
“The argument that random variation and Darwinian gradualism may not be adequate to explain complex biological systems is hardly new […} in fact, there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation for such a vast subject — evolution — with so little rigorous examination of how well its basic theses works in illuminating specific instances of biological adaptation or diversity.” Prof. James Shapiro – “In the Details…What?” National Review, 19 September 1996, pp. 64. Talking Back to Goliath: Some Advice for Students in the Evolutionary Biology Classroom - Paul Nelson - September 30, 2014 Excerpt: (if neo-Darwinism) is true, we should be able to find in the scientific literature the detailed explanations for the origin of complex structures and behaviors, rendered strictly in terms of random variation plus natural selection. Guess what? Those explanations aren't there; they don't exist. If anyone doubts this, he should try looking for himself. Choose any complex structure or behavior, and look in the biological literature for the step-by-step causal account where the origin of that structure (that is, its coming-to-be where it did not exist before) is explained via random variation and natural selection. You'll be looking a long time. The explanations just aren't there, and this fact is well known to evolutionary biologists who have become disenchanted with received neo-Darwinian theory. When proponents of the received theory, such as Richard Dawkins, face the task of making random variation and natural selection work, they resort to fictional entities like Dawkins's "biomorphs" -- see Chapter 3 of The Blind Watchmaker (1986) -- or flawed analogies such as the "methinks it is like a weasel" search algorithm scenario. No one would have to employ these toy stories, of course, if evidence were available showing the efficacy of random variation and selection to construct novel complexity. "Research on selection and adaptation," notes Mary Jane West-Eberhard, a disenchanted evolutionary theorist, "may tell us why a trait persisted and spread, but it will not tell us where a trait came from....This transformational aspect of evolutionary change has been oddly neglected in modern evolutionary biology" (2003, p. 197). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/talking_back_to_1090141.html “The response I have received from repeating Behe's claim about the evolutionary literature, which simply brings out the point being made implicitly by many others, such as Chris Dutton and so on, is that I obviously have not read the right books. There are, I am sure, evolutionists who have described how the transitions in question could have occurred.” And he continues, “When I ask in which books I can find these discussions, however, I either get no answer or else some titles that, upon examination, do not, in fact, contain the promised accounts. That such accounts exist seems to be something that is widely known, but I have yet to encounter anyone who knows where they exist.” David Ray Griffin - retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology
etc.. etc...bornagain77
March 2, 2015
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gpuccio: Not at all! Just a transition of a couple of AAs from an existing functional molecule. Now you got it! That's evolution for ya!Zachriel
March 2, 2015
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Zachriel: "A few hundred amino acids, that’s all." Not at all! Just a transition of a couple of AAs from an existing functional molecule.gpuccio
March 2, 2015
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BA, Did you read even a Single paper posted in the long list ? Why are Axe,Dembski and Behe who are not evolutionary biologist more credible than an evolutionary biologist?Me_Think
March 2, 2015
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But to save us all a bunch of time, how about even one molecular machine produced by unguided Darwinian processes so as to falsify ID? Dr. James Tour, who, in my honest opinion, currently builds the most sophisticated man-made molecular machines in the world, will buy lunch for anyone who can explain to him exactly how Darwinian evolution works:
Top Ten Most Cited Chemist in the World Knows Darwinian Evolution Does Not Work – James Tour, Phd. – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y5-VNg-S0s “I build molecules for a living, I can’t begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.” James Tour – one of the leading nano-tech engineers in the world – Strobel, Lee (2000), The Case For Faith, p. 111 Science & Faith — Dr. James Tour – video (At the two minute mark of the following video, you can see a nano-car that was built by Dr. James Tour’s team) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR4QhNFTtyw
as to empirical falsification in general, it is far easier to falsify ID than it is to falsify the pseudo-science of Darwinism:
"In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality." Karl Popper - The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge http://izquotes.com/quote/147518 It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/9957206/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness_Scirus_Topic_Page_
bornagain77
March 2, 2015
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Me_Think, pointing to adaptations that are, in many instances, non-Darwinian, and that do not exceed the UPB of Dembski is, regardless of what you imagine to be true, NOT providing empirical evidence that search space is, as you claim, multidimensional and that novel functional sequences are within easy reach of each other as a result of being in your imaginary multidimensional search space. to reiterate what the real world empirical evidence states: four decades worth of laboratory evolution experiments are surveyed here, and no evidence for neo-Darwinian evolution surfaces:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/
How about the oft cited example for neo-Darwinism of antibiotic resistance?
List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: Excerpt: Resistance to antibiotics and other antimicrobials is often claimed to be a clear demonstration of “evolution in a Petri dish.” ,,, all known examples of antibiotic resistance via mutation are inconsistent with the genetic requirements of evolution. These mutations result in the loss of pre-existing cellular systems/activities, such as porins and other transport systems, regulatory systems, enzyme activity, and protein binding. http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp
That doesn’t seem to be helping! How about we look really, really, close at very sensitive growth rates and see if we can catch almighty evolution in action?
Unexpectedly small effects of mutations in bacteria bring new perspectives – November 2010 Excerpt: Most mutations in the genes of the Salmonella bacterium have a surprisingly small negative impact on bacterial fitness. And this is the case regardless whether they lead to changes in the bacterial proteins or not.,,, using extremely sensitive growth measurements, doctoral candidate Peter Lind showed that most mutations reduced the rate of growth of bacteria by only 0.500 percent. No mutations completely disabled the function of the proteins, and very few had no impact at all. Even more surprising was the fact that mutations that do not change the protein sequence had negative effects similar to those of mutations that led to substitution of amino acids. A possible explanation is that most mutations may have their negative effect by altering mRNA structure, not proteins, as is commonly assumed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-unexpectedly-small-effects-mutations-bacteria.html
Shoot that doesn’t seem to be helping either! How about if we just try to ‘fix’ a ‘beneficial’ mutation:
Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies (35 years of trying to force fruit flies to evolve in the laboratory fails, spectacularly) – October 2010 Excerpt: “Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.,,, “This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve,” said ecology and evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/10/07/experimental_evolution_in_fruit_flies
Well that certainly didn’t help. How about if just try to help evolution out a little and saturate genomes with mutations until we can actually see some ‘evolution’?
Response to John Wise – October 2010 Excerpt: A technique called “saturation mutagenesis”1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12 None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans–because none of the observed developmental mutations benefit the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/response_to_john_wise038811.html
Well now its getting frustrating, how about if we try to force bacteria to adapt to a new environment?
Researchers Ran a Massive Yearlong Experiment to Get Bacteria to Evolve. Guess What Happened? – August 22, 2014 Excerpt: (the problem the researchers tried to address???) “the general inability to connect phenotype to genotype in the context of environmental adaptation has been a major failing in the field of evolution.,,,” (Their results in addressing this major failing???) ‘In short, it was hard to find anything beyond a “suggestion” or a “scenario” that these bacteria improved their fitness in any way by genetic mutations, other than the gross observation that some of the clones managed to survive at 45 °C. But even the ancestor could do that sometimes through the “Lazarus effect.”‘ http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/researchers_ran089231.html
Shoot that doesn’t seem to be helping either! Perhaps we just have to give the almighty power of neo-Darwinism ‘room to breathe’? How about we ‘open the floodgates’ to the almighty power of Darwinian Evolution and look at Lenski’s Long Term Evolution Experiment and see what we can find after 50,000 generations, which is equivalent to somewhere around 1,000,000 years of human evolution???
“The results of future work aside, so far, during the course of the longest, most open-ended, and most extensive laboratory investigation of bacterial evolution, a number of adaptive mutations have been identified that endow the bacterial strain with greater fitness compared to that of the ancestral strain in the particular growth medium. The goal of Lenski’s research was not to analyze adaptive mutations in terms of gain or loss of function, as is the focus here, but rather to address other longstanding evolutionary questions. Nonetheless, all of the mutations identified to date can readily be classified as either modification-of-function or loss-of-FCT.” (Michael J. Behe, “Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’,” Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 85(4) (December, 2010).) Lenski’s Long-Term Evolution Experiment: 25 Years and Counting – Michael Behe – November 21, 2013 Excerpt: Twenty-five years later the culture — a cumulative total of trillions of cells — has been going for an astounding 58,000 generations and counting. As the article points out, that’s equivalent to a million years in the lineage of a large animal such as humans. Combined with an ability to track down the exact identities of bacterial mutations at the DNA level, that makes Lenski’s project the best, most detailed source of information on evolutionary processes available anywhere,,, ,,,for proponents of intelligent design the bottom line is that the great majority of even beneficial mutations have turned out to be due to the breaking, degrading, or minor tweaking of pre-existing genes or regulatory regions (Behe 2010). There have been no mutations or series of mutations identified that appear to be on their way to constructing elegant new molecular machinery of the kind that fills every cell. For example, the genes making the bacterial flagellum are consistently turned off by a beneficial mutation (apparently it saves cells energy used in constructing flagella). The suite of genes used to make the sugar ribose is the uniform target of a destructive mutation, which somehow helps the bacterium grow more quickly in the laboratory. Degrading a host of other genes leads to beneficial effects, too.,,, - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/11/richard_lenskis079401.html
Now this just can’t be right!! Man we should really start to be seeing some neo-Darwinian fireworks by 50,000 generations!?! Hey I know what we can do! How about we see what happened when the ‘top five’ mutations from Lenski’s experiment were combined??? Surely now the Darwinian magic will start flowing!!!
Mutations : when benefits level off – June 2011 – (Lenski’s e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7
Now something is going terribly wrong here! Tell you what, let’s just forget trying to observe evolution in the lab, I mean it really is kind of cramped in the lab you know, and now let’s REALLY open the floodgates and let’s see what the almighty power of neo-Darwinian evolution can do with the ENTIRE WORLD at its disposal? Surely now almighty neo-Darwinian evolution will flex its awesomely powerful muscles and forever make those IDiots, who believe in Intelligent Design, cower in terror!
A review of : The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have “invented” little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ Michael Behe The Edge of Evolution p. 155 “The immediate, most important implication is that complexes with more than two different binding sites-ones that require three or more proteins-are beyond the edge of evolution, past what is biologically reasonable to expect Darwinian evolution to have accomplished in all of life in all of the billion-year history of the world. The reasoning is straightforward. The odds of getting two independent things right are the multiple of the odds of getting each right by itself. So, other things being equal, the likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability for getting one: a double CCC, 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the world in the last 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable.” - Michael Behe – The Edge of Evolution – page 146 “Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell–both ones we’ve discovered so far and ones we haven’t–at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It’s critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing–neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered–was of much use.” Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Kenneth Miller Steps on Darwin’s Achilles Heel – Michael Behe – January 17, 2015 Excerpt: Enter Achilles and his heel. It turns out that the odds are much better for atovaquone resistance because only one particular malaria mutation is required for resistance. The odds are astronomical for chloroquine because a minimum of two particular malaria mutations are required for resistance. Just one mutation won’t do it. For Darwinism, that is the troublesome significance of Summers et al.: “The findings presented here reveal that the minimum requirement for (low) CQ transport activity … is two mutations.” Darwinism is hounded relentlessly by an unshakeable limitation: if it has to skip even a single tiny step — that is, if an evolutionary pathway includes a deleterious or even neutral mutation — then the probability of finding the pathway by random mutation decreases exponentially. If even a few more unselected mutations are needed, the likelihood rapidly fades away.,,, So what should we conclude from all this? Miller grants for purposes of discussion that the likelihood of developing a new protein binding site is 1 in 10^20. Now, suppose that, in order to acquire some new, useful property, not just one but two new protein-binding sites had to develop. In that case the odds would be the multiple of the two separate events — about 1 in 10^40, which is somewhat more than the number of cells that have existed on earth in the history of life. That seems like a reasonable place to set the likely limit to Darwinism, to draw the edge of evolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/kenneth_miller_1092771.html
Now, there is something terribly wrong here! After looking high and low and everywhere in between, we can’t seem to find the almighty power of neo-Darwinism anywhere!! Shoot we can’t even find ANY power of neo-Darwinism whatsoever!!! It is as if the whole neo-Darwinian theory, relentlessly sold to the general public as it was the gospel truth, is nothing but a big fat lie!bornagain77
March 2, 2015
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Eric Anderson: Essentially what we are doing is allowing organism A to take advantage of the (presumably successful) search that organism B has already performed. Somewhat more than that. It's not just sharing of traits, but the many unique combinations of traits that would otherwise be unavailable. "Your father's nose. Your mother's eyes." Mung: Evolutionary theory does not predict the existence of fossils. It follows that evolutionary theory does not predict any particular succession of fossils. Gee whiz, Mung. There are fossils, in fact, so they can be tested to see if they fit the expected pattern. Mung: Evolutionary theory does not predict a nested hierarchy. Evolutionary theory states that organisms diverge from common ancestors generally through vertical inheritance, and therefore, organisms will generally form a nested hierarchy. Mung: What’s your point, if you have one? Hypothetico-deduction, a.k.a. the scientific method. gpuccio: Probably. A simple function. A few hundred amino acids, that's all. And to the organisms, crucial. If you could eat plastic residues while everyone else starved, you would think it was the most important trait in the world. gpuccio: Can you give me a detailed list of words of 12 letters which go from QUIXOTICALLY to EXTEMPORIZER, where each word is a correct English word, and each word differs from the previous one only of one letter? As pointed out several times, we include recombination along with mutation in our word evolution. Given that, then they are probably connected. Also, the claim isn't that every word is connected, just that many 12-letter words can evolve. Evolution is opportunistic, not necessarily thorough.Zachriel
March 2, 2015
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bornagain77 @ 291
you have ZERO empirical evidence that what you claim is true for reality actually is true for reality and your response for being called on your bluff is to call someone stupid?
Wagner is an Evolutionary Biologist . He has over 150 peer reviewed papers (not in buddy reviewed journal like Bio-Complexity). If you think such an evolutionary biologist is bluffing then I invite you to critic the papers given below:
160. Payne, J.L., Wagner, A. (2014) The robustness and evolvability of transcription factor binding sites. Science 343, 875-877.[link] 159. Wagner, A. (2014) A genotype network reveals homoplastic cycles of convergent evolution in influenza A (H3N2) evolution. Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 281, 20132763. [reprint request] 158. Szovenyi, P., Devos, N., Weston, D.J., Yang, X., Hock, Z., Shaw, J.A., Shimizu, K.K., McDaniel, S., Wagner, A. Efficient purging of deleterious mutations in plants with haploid selfing. Genome Biology and Evolution 6, 1238-1252. [reprint request] 157. Wagner, A., Rosen, W. (2014) Spaces of the possible: universal Darwinism and the wall between technological and biological innovation. Journal of the Royal Society Interface 11, 20131190. [reprint request] 156. Payne, J.L., Wagner, A. Latent phenotypes pervade gene regulatory circuits. BMC Systems Biology 8 (1), 64. [reprint request] 155. Dhar, R., Bergmiller, T., Wagner, A. (2014) Increased gene dosage plays a predominant role in the initial stages of evolution of duplicate TEM-1 beta lactamase genes. Evolution 68, 1775-1791. [reprint request] 154. Hayden, E., Bratulic, S., Konig, I., Ferrada, E., Wagner, A. (2014) The effects of stabilizing and directional selection on phenotypic and genotypic variation in a population of RNA enzymes. Journal of Molecular Evolution 78, 101-108. [reprint request] 153. Barve, A., Hosseini, S.-R., Martin, O.C., Wagner, A. Historical contingency and the gradual evolution of metabolic properties in central carbon and genome-scale metabolisms. BMC Systems Biology 2014, 8:48. [reprint request] 152. Wagner, A. (2014) Mutational robustness accelerates the origin of novel RNA phenotypes through phenotypic plasticity. Biophysical Journal 106, 955-965. [reprint request] 151. Sunnaker, M., Zamora-Sillero, E., Garcia de Lomana, A.L., Rudroff, F., Sauer, U., Stelling, J., Wagner, A. (2014) Topological augmentation to infer hidden processes in biological systems. Bioinformatics 30, 221-227. [reprint request] 150. Wagner, A., Andriasyan, V., Barve, A. (2014) The organization of metabolic genotype space facilitates adaptive evolution in nitrogen metabolism. Journal of Molecular Biochemistry 3: 2-13. [reprint request] 149. Payne, J.L., Moore, J.H., Wagner, A. (2014) Robustness, evolvability, and the logic of genetic regulation. Artificial Life 20, 111-126. [reprint request] 2013 148. Barve, A., Wagner, A. (2013) A latent capacity for evolutionary innovation through exaptation in metabolic systems. Nature 500, 203-206. [reprint request] 147. Sunnaker, M., Zamora-Sillero, E., Dechant, R., Ludwig, C., Busetto, A.G., Wagner, A., Stelling, J. (2013) Automatic generation of predictive dynamic models reveals nuclear phosphorylation as the key Msn2 control mechanism. Science Signaling 6, ra41. [reprint request] 146. Szovenyi, P., Ricca, M., Hock, Z., Shaw, J.A., Shimizu, K.K., Wagner, A. (2013) Selection is no more efficient in haploid than in diploid life stages of an angiosperm and a moss. Molecular Biology and Evolution 30: 1929-1939. [reprint request] 145. Payne, J.A., Wagner, A. (2013) Constraint and contingency in multifunctional gene regulatory circuits. PLoS Computational Biology 9 (6), e1003071. [reprint request] 144. Dhar, R., Saegesser, R., Weikert, C., Wagner, A. (2013) Yeast adapts to a changing stressful environment by evolving cross-protection and anticipatory gene regulation. Molecular Biology and Evolution 30, 573-588. [reprint request] 143. Sabath, N., Ferrada, E., Barve, A., Wagner, A., (2013) Growth temperature and genome size in bacteria are negatively correlated, suggesting genomic streamlining during thermal adaptation. Genome Biology and Evolution 5, 966-977. [reprint request] . 142. Bilgin, T., Kurnaz, I.A., Wagner, A. (2013) Selection shapes the robustness of ligand-binding amino acids. Journal of Molecular Evolution 76, 343-349. [reprint request] . 141. Bichsel, M., Barbour, A.D., Wagner, A. (2013) Estimating the fitness effect of insertion sequences. Journal of Mathematical Biology 66, 95-114. [reprint request] 140. Wagner, A. (2013) Genotype networks and evolutionary innovations in biological systems. In Handbook of Systems Biology. Eds: Walhout, A.J.M., Vidal, M., Dekker, J., Academic Press, London, p 251-264. [reprint request] 139. Wagner, A. (2013) Metabolic networks and their evolution. In Encyclopedia of Systems Biology; p 1256-1259; Dubitzky, W., Wolkenhauer, O., Yokota, H., Cho, K.-H. (eds) Springer, New York. 2012 138. Barve, A., Rodrigues, J.F.M., Wagner, A. (2012) Superessential reactions in metabolic networks. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the U.S.A. 109 (18), E1121-E1130. [reprint request] 137. Wagner, A. (2012) The role of robustness in phenotypic adaptation and innovation. Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 279, 1249-1258.[reprint request] 136. Hayden, E.J., Wagner, A. (2012) Environmental change exposes beneficial epistatic interactions in a catalytic RNA. Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 279, 3418-3425.    135. Chen, B., Wagner, A. (2012) Hsp90 is important for fecundity, longevity, and buffering of cryptic deleterious variation in wild fly populations. BMC Evolutionary Biology 12, 25. [reprint request] 134. Wagner, A. (2012) The role of randomness in Darwinian evolution. Philosophy of Science 79, 95-119. [reprint request] 133. Sabath, N., Wagner, A., Karlin, D. (2012) Evolution of viral proteins originated de novo by overprinting. Molecular Biology and Evoluion 29, 3767-3780. 132. Guo, B., Zuo, M., Wagner, A. (2012) Pervasive indels and their evolutionary dynamics after the fish-specific genome duplication. Molecular Biology and Evolution. doi: 10.1093/molbev/mss108. [reprint request] 131. Bragg, J.G., Quigg, A., Raven, J.A., Wagner, A. (2012) Protein elemental sparing and codon usage bias are correlated among bacteria. Molecular Ecology 21, 2480–248. [reprint request] 130. Ferrada, E., Wagner, A. (2012) A comparison of genotype-phenotype maps for RNA and proteins. Biophysical Journal 102, 1916-1925. [reprint request] 129. Matias Rodrigues, J.F., Rankin, D., Rossetti, V., Wagner, A., Bagheri, H.C. (2012) Differences in cell division rates drive the evolution of terminal and differentiation in microbes. PLoS Computational Biology 8 (4), e1002468. [reprint request] 128. De la Chaux, N., Tsuchimatsu, T., Shimizu, K.K., Wagner, A. (2012) The predominantly selfing plant Arabidopsis thaliana experienced a recent reduction in transposable element abundance compared to its outcrossing relative Arabidopsis lyrata. Mobile DNA 3, 2. [reprint request] 127. Bilgin, T., Wagner, A. (2012) Design constraints on a synthetic metabolism. PLoS ONE 7(6): e39903. [reprint request] 126. Wagner, A. (2012) Metabolic networks and their evolution. Evolutionary Systems Biology/Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology 751: 29-52. [reprint request] 125. Wagner, A. (2012) High dimensional adaptive landscapes facilitate evolutionary innovation p271-282 in Svensson, E.I., Calsbeek, R. (eds) The adaptive landscape in evolutionary biology. Oxford University Press, Oxford, UK. [reprint request] 124. Wagner, A., Weikert, C. (2012) Phenotypic constraints and phenotypic hitchhiking in a promiscuous enzyme. The Open Evolution Journal 6, 14-28. [reprint request] 123. Hayden, E., Wagner, A. (2012) Directional selection causes decanalization in a catalytic RNA. PLoS ONE 7(9), e45351. [reprint request] 2011 122. Hayden, E.J., Ferrada, E., Wagner, A. (2011) Cryptic genetic variation promotes rapid evolutionary adaptation in an RNA enzyme. Nature 474, 92-95.[reprint request] 121. Wagner, A. (2011) The molecular origins of evolutionary innovations. Trends in Genetics 27, 397-410. [reprint request] 120. Wagner, A. (2011) Genotype networks shed light on evolutionary constraints. Trends in Ecology and Evolution 26, 577-584. [reprint request] 119. Dhar, R., Sägesser, R., Weikert, C., Yuan, J., Wagner, A. (2011) Adaptation of Saccharomyces cerevisiae to saline stress through laboratory evolution. Journal of Evolutionary Biology 5, 1135-1153. [reprint request] 118. Wagner, A. (2011) The low cost of recombination in creating novel phenotypes. Bioessays 33, 636-646. [reprint request] 117. Zamora-Sillero, E. Hafner, M., Ibig, A., Stelling, J., Wagner, A. (2011) Efficient characterization of high-dimensional parameter spaces for systems biology. BMC Systems Biology 5, 142. [reprint request] 116. Samal, A., Wagner, A., Martin, O.C. (2011) Environmental versatility promotes modularity in large scale metabolic networks. BMC Systems Biology 5,135.[reprint request] 115. Espinosa-Soto, C. Martin, O.C., Wagner, A. (2011) Phenotypic plasticity can facilitate adaptive evolution in gene regulatory circuits. BMC Evolutionary Biology 11:5, doi:10.1186/1471-2148-11-5. [reprint request] 114. Rodrigues, J.F.M., Wagner, A. (2011) Genotype networks, innovation, and robustness in sulfur metabolism. BMC Systems Biology 5:39. [reprint request] 113. Raman, K., Wagner, A. (2011) The evolvability of programmable hardware. Journal of the Royal Society Interface 8: 269-281. [reprint request] 112. Raman, K., Wagner, A. (2011) Evolvability and robustness in a complex signaling circuit. Molecular BioSystems 7, 1081-1092. [reprint request] 111. De la Chaux, N., Wagner, A. (2011) BEL/Pao retrotransposons in metazoan genomes. BMC Evolutionary Biology 11 :154. [reprint request] 110. Wright, J., Bellissimi, E., de Hulster, E., Wagner, A., Pronk, J.T., van Maris, A.J.A. (2011) Batch and continuous culture-based selection strategies for acetic acid tolerance in xylose-fermenting Saccharomyces cerevisiae. FEMS Yeast Research 11,299–306. [reprint request] 109. Espinosa-Soto, C., Martin, O.C., Wagner, A. (2011) Phenotypic plasticity can increase phenotypic variability after non-genetic perturbations in gene regulatory circuits. Journal of Evolutionary Biology 24, 1284-1297. [reprint request
More here Me_Think
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Me_Think, so you have ZERO empirical evidence that what you claim is true for reality actually is true for reality and your response for being called on your bluff is to call someone stupid? I think the proper response of the UD administrators should be to ban you for such childish invective! But if they did that then we would soon have no neo-Darwinists to argue with since ad hominem is, in the end, all they have got! :)bornagain77
March 2, 2015
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#287 gpuccio, One problem with the word ladder puzzle as an analogy is that English words are of limited length. The mean length of dictionary headwords is about 8, and the number of words with n letters drops rather quickly as n increases. That's part of the reason why the web of words becomes rather fragmented for large values of n. If, however, you permit other kinds of mutations beside single letter substitutions (letter addition or deletion, recombination, concatenation), connectivity is largely restored. As for your concrete examples, QUIXOTICALLY is based on a foreing proper name, and so is likely to turn out to be "aloof" word (to use Lewis Carroll's terminology). So is even the shorter adjective QUIXOTIC.Piotr
March 2, 2015
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Wellllllll Box, You are obviously stupid. I have explained what hyperdimension and hyperastronmical libraries are ( It is even in the book). If GP is honest, he can vouch for me since I don't want to go searching for all those comments.Me_Think
March 2, 2015
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Me_Think: I have quoted how Metabolic pathways relate to reality. (...) ribozome (..).
Don't play stupid with me. Metabolic pathways and ribozomes were neither the problem nor the question, now was it? My question was about the relation between reality and stuff like “hyper-astronomical-libraries” and “hyper-dimensional-space”.Box
March 2, 2015
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Zachriel and Piotr: Going back to the real issue, that you (Zachriel) seem to elude, I will ask an explicit question, to which I hope to receive an answer. In post #220, Piotr gives a sequence of 5 letter English words, separated each by a single letter variation. Here it is: FLOUR > FLOOR > FLOOD > BLOOD > BROOD > BROAD > BREAD In this way he shows that it is possible, at least in some cases, to go from 5 letter word to another, sequence unrelated, 5 letter word, through a series of one letter transitions (6 in this case), where each step is a correct English 5 letter word. If I understand well, what he mean is that, if we have an oracle which recognizes English words and fixes them, it is possible to go from FLOUR to BREAD quite easily by single letter variation. That means that there is some good interconnection in the functional space of English 5 letter words. OK, I can agree. Obviously, you always need a dictionary as an oracle, and a fixation procedure, but let's ignore that for the moment. In my post #271 I comment:
a) I believe that, in all functional spaces, the search space grows faster than the functional space, as the “length” of the information unit increases. Much faster. Both KF and Eric have pointed to that simple fact, and I absolutely agree with them. A very simple consequence of that is that the functional complexity of an information unit is bound to increase with the length of the unit, even if with some great residual variance. Another consequence is that any eventual natural network of “connections” between functional values, if present, is bound to be drastically “diluted” as the length of the information unit increases, leading to isolated functional islands even when for short units some connections existed. So, even if you say that it is rather easy to go from FLOUR to BREAD (but please, see next point), is it equally “easy” to go from QUIXOTICALLY to EXTEMPORIZER? I have not tried, but I would say that the task would be much harder. 12 letter words are, it seems, about 11400 in English (I confess that I am using Word Finder :) ). The combinations are 26^12, that is 9.542896e+16. The target space/search space ratio is 1.194606e-13. In your 5 letter example, with your numbers, the ratio is 0.0005. IOWs, going from 5 letters to 12 letters, the target space has approximately doubled (6000 to 11400), while the search space has become more than 8 billion times greater. The ratio is therefore approximately 8 billion times smaller. These are simple numbers. Do you really believe that your network of connections is as strong in a 12 letter space as it is in a 5 letter space?
In his post #272, Zachriel "answers":
not necessarily the case. A landscape may include tiny islands or vast continents.
and:
With word evolution—populations of words subject to mutation and recombination—even longer words can evolve.
I am not satisfied of these "answers", which IMO are nothing more than vague and non committal statements. So, I ask more explicitly, to Zachriel and to anyone: Can you give me a detailed list of words of 12 letters which go from QUIXOTICALLY to EXTEMPORIZER, where each word is a correct English word, and each word differs from the previous one only of one letter? IOWs, is the space of 12 letter words as interconnected as the space of 5 letter words? As I have already said, I have not even tried. Maybe it is possible, but it seems rather difficult to me, at first sight. You are the fans of word connections, so again I ask: can you do it?gpuccio
March 2, 2015
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Zachriel: "No, the optimization of citrate utilization, which occurred during generations 33000 to 33500." I will look at it. "So nylonase is a new function that came about through a stepwise process then became fixed through selection." Probably. A simple function. Which is absolutely compatible with ID theory.gpuccio
March 2, 2015
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Box @ 284
"As shown”? You have been asked in those threads how Wagner’s ideas (“hyper-astronomical-libraries” and “hyper-dimensional-space” among other things) correlate to reality. We are still waiting for your answer.
What do you mean? How much more explanation can me or wagner's book give you. I have quoted how Metabolic pathways relate to reality, I have quoted how hammer head ribozyme relate to reality and I have asked you what you understand by Axe's landscape search and hills in his landscape, so I can relate to what you understand (search the various thread on which we and GP discussed this. In fact Poitr joined later to show a simpler approach too). It is you who has to answer- not me.Me_Think
March 2, 2015
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Me_Think #283,
Me_Think: No. If you represent the genotype as a hyper dimension network, the search space falls down drastically (As shown in various threads on UD).
"As shown"? You have been asked in those threads how Wagner's ideas ("hyper-astronomical-libraries" and "hyper-dimensional-space" among other things) correlate to reality. We are still waiting for your answer.Box
March 2, 2015
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Eric Anderson @ 281
I love the imagery, and you might be on to something here. I’ll have to think about it further...we have a greater chance of finding a more distant place, something more substantively different from our current genotype, however at the cost that we have fewer chances of finding it.
No. If you represent the genotype as a hyper dimension network, the search space falls down drastically (As shown in various threads on UD):
Imagine a solution circle (the circle within which solution exists) of 10 cm inside a 100 cm square search space. The area which needs to be searched for solution is pi x 10 ^2 = 314.15 The total Search area is 100 x 100 = 10000. The % area to be searched is (314.15/10000) x 100 = 3.14% In 3 dimensions, the search area will be 4/3 x pi x 10^3 Area to search is now cube (because of 3 dimensions) = 100^3. Thus the % of area to be searched falls to just 4188.79/100^3 = 0.41 % only. Hyper volume of sphere with dimension d and radius r is: (Pi^d/2 x r^d)/Gamma(d/2+1) HyperVolume of Cube = r^d At 10 dimensions, the volume to search reduces to just: 0.000015608 % If we take the total 5,500 metabolic reactions in Nature, the search space in hyperdimension is only 1.7234*10^-10926
Me_Think
March 2, 2015
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Zachriel: The fossil succession and the nested hierarchy follow from the hypothesis of evolution. So? Zachriel: The fossil succession and the nested hierarchy follow from the hypothesis of evolution. Evolutionary theory does not predict the existence of fossils. It follows that evolutionary theory does not predict any particular succession of fossils. Evolutionary theory does not predict a nested hierarchy. Zachriel: The fossil succession and the nested hierarchy follow from the hypothesis of evolution. What's your point, if you have one?Mung
March 1, 2015
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Zachriel @268:
It creates new genetic combinations, which requires populations, not single organisms.
Agreed. So this would be an example of additional probabilistic resources being brought to bear, but not involving reproduction. Essentially what we are doing is allowing organism A to take advantage of the (presumably successful) search that organism B has already performed.
You send a thousand troopers out to reconnoiter, each taking ten steps. You send ten rangers out to explore, each taking a thousand steps. The total steps are the same in both cases, but the results are considerably different. The former exhaustively explores the nearby landscape, leaving no stone unturned. The latter may miss some features nearby, but return with news of distant places.
I love the imagery, and you might be on to something here. I'll have to think about it further. I'm wondering, though, about what it might mean for evolution. If I pursue your analogy, we seem to have the following: 1000 organisms exploring 10 steps each would give us a greater likelihood of stumbling across something relatively close to home, meaning, something only slightly different from the current genotype. Whereas with 10 organisms exploring 1000 steps each we have a greater chance of finding a more distant place, something more substantively different from our current genotype, however at the cost that we have fewer chances of finding it. Again, interesting analogy and I'll think about it some more. In either case, at the end of the day what a population provides is more probabilistic resources to go out and search the space, whether lots of organisms close by, or a smaller of organisms number farther afield.Eric Anderson
March 1, 2015
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gpuccio: If you fix any variation that brings you nearer to a known word, it is easy to go wherever you like. The word evolution we have been discussing only allows for properly spelled words throughout the history. gpuccio: Are you referring to the reactivation of the citrate pathway? No, the optimization of citrate utilization, which occurred during generations 33000 to 33500. gpuccio: I am saying that nylonase is a rather simple transition at the molecular level So nylonase is a new function that came about through a stepwise process then became fixed through selection.Zachriel
March 1, 2015
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Zachriel: "While you didn’t introduce word evolution, we were responding to your own statements on the subject, such as “So, even if you say that it is rather easy to go from FLOUR to BREAD (but please, see next point), is it equally “easy” to go from QUIXOTICALLY to EXTEMPORIZER?” " It depends on the search you use, and the algorithm you use. If you fix any variation that brings you nearer to a known word, it is easy to go wherever you like. Piotr's point was that you can go there by single letter variations yielding each time an existing word, if I understand it well. Is that what your algorithm does? "Not sure your question. Mutation and selection results in improved function, showing there is a stepwise path from low function to high function. " What function? Are you referring to the reactivation of the citrate pathway? That looks like a simple regulatory change, rather than a "gradient for protein function". What do you mean exactly? "Are you saying nylonase was not a new function?" No. I am saying that nylonase is a rather simple transition at the molecular level, probably in the context of bacterial adaptational algorithms involving plasmids, and certainly not the result of a frameshift mutation, as you (and many others) have argued for a long time. You have done that with me personally, years ago. My memory is still good.gpuccio
March 1, 2015
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Joe: I am really not interested in nested hierarchies, and never have been. I have my reasons to believe in common descent, but they are different.gpuccio
March 1, 2015
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Nylonase? Another thing evolutionism cannot explain. No one knows if that arose via blind watchmaker processes. Evos are nothing but grand equivocators as to them all evidence for evolution is also evidence for unguided evolution. Typical but still patheticJoe
March 1, 2015
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