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We are clearly in an age of reversion to oligarchic domination and lockout of dissent, so the issue is that of formation of a counter-culture, starting with the life of the mind.

H’mm, as a preliminary, let us look briefly at a refresher on a more useful ideological/political spectrum than the usual LEFT/RIGHT (which has no coherent definition of centre and right, where also Nazism/Fascism is actually of the left . . . contrary to popular notions):

This is necessary because, regrettably, power dominates over essentially anything, especially in a time of deep polarisation. We can map that through the seven mountains/pillars of influence model:

This naturally points to the cliff metaphor and warning:

Let me add, that with our bounded rationality, we need to ponder the limitations on how we think:

For there to be a choice, there has to be sober-minded thinking through of issues in fora that are not unduly censored, by people who rise above small-p party-spiritedness. Or else we turn Mencken’s cynicism into prophecy:

Accordingly, the first substantial issue is inescapable first duties of reason; which also happen to be pivotal to sound framing of law and government as well as opening the door to understanding roots of reality in a world with significantly free, rational, responsible, morally governed creatures — arguably, including us:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason, 

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

 7 – justice 

x – etc.

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, “natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate’s cynical “what is truth?”: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence — in key part — the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”  [NB: This implies that through sound reason and balanced, insightful judgement applied to the material evidence, factors, claims and circumstances in a situation (which may often be clouded, contentious and confusing or even willfully distorted by deceivers),  we soundly discern and warrant truth and risks or uncertainties . . . yes, we need to ponder and warrant degrees of risk and uncertainty . . . so we can confidently, soberly act as we are rightly guided. This requires that we act through trained, experienced wisdom that delights in “solid food” which is “for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.” [Heb 5:14.]

And yes, we find here no comfort for those inclined to remain over-long at the milk stage: “everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child” [v. 13]. Indeed, in the Proverbs, the simple youth are counselled to study the proverbs, precisely “to give prudence to the simple” [Prov 1:4.]  

There is no wrong in being young, simple and naive, but this is a mark of baby-hood,  and a healthy child grows beyond that stage in good time. Long delay in immaturity and in struggling to learn and master the simple is not a good sign: “though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food.” [Heb 5:12. It is of course just after this that the author points to the famous six foundational, ABC principles in 6:1 – 2, repentance, faith, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, eternal judgement. This is what the “milk” is. Note, it is led by meta + noia, a profound change in attitude, thought patterns and inclination of life leading to a right-about turn from the wrong, false and foolish to the ways of truth and right in love to God and man.]

This, too, is how prudence becomes “auriga virtutum — the charioteer of the virtues” (as Aquinas put it); the skilled steersman who guides and controls the chariot. Or even, the ship of state (what is implicitly in view in the Proverbs: “[t]he proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel”, Prov 1:1).

From this, we may also see how the first duties naturally fall into a logical chain in light of the key factors, loving God who is Truth Himself, and loving Neighbour made in God’s image just as we are; with sound conscience as pivot:

[i] truth –> right reason –> prudence, so sound conscience clears for action. Then, through the voice of sound conscience,
[ii] love for neighbour who is as we are requires fairness and justice etc.]

Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law.

The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.

This is where we must begin. Without this, there is no basis for that comity required to have sound academic disciplines, much less general public policy or even current events discussion. The ever-eager Red Guard censors are at our heels.

The case of Mathematics is central.

Mathematics, being best understood as [The study of] the logic of structure and quantity, where certain core intelligible mathematical facts are framework to any possible world (= a sufficiently complete chain of propositions describing a possible state of affairs), and lead to a programme of analysis and elaboration of logic-model worlds that may then apply to relevant situations of interest. For example, per von Neumann:

{} –> 0
{0} –> 1
{0,1} –> 2
. . . .
{0,1,2 . . .) –> w, omega

From reflecting on the principle of distinct identity, we see that for a world W to be distinct from some arbitrarily close neighbour W’, we have some A in W that is not in W’, so

W = {A|~A} and also W = {A|W’}, thence,

we see the partition | is empty, manifesting nullity.

A is a simple and ~A = W’ is a complex, unity.

With distinct unities, we find duality, and already we see that von Neumann’s framework applies to any distinct world.

It is truly universal, i.e. we find the natural counting numbers, N as an abstract structure necessarily present in and framework to any possible world.

From N, we can define additive inverses so for n in N, -n is such that n + (-n) = 0, i.e. we have that vector set where elements have both size and direction in an abstract space, the integers Z. Taking ratios, we have the rationals, Q. Reals bring in transfinite converging sums of rationals without repeating cycles when displayed in place value form, R. From that we go in a second orthogonal spatial direction, to C, using the j* rotating operator: j*x for all x in R defines the imaginary axis by anticlockwise rotation through one right angle and j*j* x is – x so we see j is sqrt – 1.

Beyond we define the hyperreals R* on the reals R being mileposted by N. H = 1/h, where h is smaller than 1/n for any finite n in N, where for any k in N the von Neumann succession continues k+1, k+2 etc, i.e. we cannot exhaust N stepwise. From this h is an infinitesimal hyperreal near 0; H is a transfinite integer hyperreal and we see a connected domain from zero and N,Z,Q,R to the hyper-domain R* such that any r in R may be surrounded by an infinitesimally altered cloud of form r + h, *r*, in effect vector shifting and adding the cloud *0* to r. (This allows us to use Robinson’s tamed infinitesimals and Model Theory etc to view Calculus as an extension of algebra.)

Notice, we have nowhere specified a particular individual world, this holds for any distinct world, for all possible worlds. It is reality-universal and possibility-universal. That is, a core domain of numbers, associated relationships and operations is a body of abstracta framework for any possible world, physical or imaginary. Hence, immediately, some of the universal power of both mathematics and logic. Hence too, we can recognise a category of beings, necessary, world framework entities; abstracta that constrain what is possible, by laying out constraints on possible being.

We can pause to summarise key first principles of right reason:

If we want a bit more on the first triad:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

Where, we may ponder Science and linked technology (Computing being in key part a technology of Mathematics, which obviously is not an empirical science but a logic-constrained and guided field of study), as a domain of inductive reason pivoting on inference to best current — hopefully progressive — explanation:

Abductive, inductive reasoning and the inherent provisionality of scientific theorising

These, we must not lose sight of, or all will be lost.

Going forward, that we are morally governed creatures has profound worldview import. For, at least one possible world, which is actualised, has in it such creatures. The root of all reality must be such that such a world is adequately accounted for.

That opens the door to serious consideration of ethical theism, which posits that the explanation for such a world is the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary [worlds-framework and so too eternal] and maximally great being.

These, we must not lose sight of. END

PS: Eugenics Congress:

Logo, 2nd Int’l Congress, Eugenics Movement, 1921 [HT: Wiki]

U/D1 Jan 12: An adapted Overton Window analysis, applied to the peril of the new Jacobins:

U/D2, Jan 13, the issue of the crooked yardstick:

In that light, consider Plato’s parable of the cave:

Not, as a fallacious cosmology but as a study on how a manipulated public reacts to truth. Ask yourselves, who is running the puppet shadow-show confused for reality and who is running the prison that locks up denizens from discovering the truth for themselves. (Then, ponder the course of current events.)

U/D3, Jan 18: Impact of cumulative evidence, as a part of first principles of reason in an inductive context:

Of chains, ropes and cumulative cases

U/D4 Jan 18, to point to the documentation of the McFaul Colour Revolution programme and the SOCOM Insurgency Escalator:

Where, note from the earlier U-Haul a Riot thread on red guard street theatre operations tied to radical Jacobin networks . . . there is much more behind that:

That is, it seems there is little matter of who is rioting to be addressed.

Where, this summary of points of concern by Navarro is a good place to begin pondering the “baseless” talking point that was used below to personally attack me as poster of the OP and host of the live event tracking threads:

U/D5, Jan 19: It is becoming apparent that as part of reforming thinking we need to re-orient our understanding of war, strategy and associated operations in light of the unlimited scope, full spectrum of force options, social- space- is- the- battlespace evolution of warfare under 4th generation war principles. First, while we may not be interested in war — in a world of ruthless geostrategic operators who lack power to simply steamroller those blocking imposition of their will — the vultures not the eagles — war may well be interested in us.

So, if near-perpetual war is in every sphere and across the spectrum of force options (most often non kinetic) we need to map the social space, so let me repeat the seven mountains/pillars of influence model:

Where, we can map the evolution of war:

In that context, let us note on Unrestricted Warfare, using a summary of the 1999 work by PLA Air Force Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui:

In 1999, two Chinese colonels wrote a book called Unrestricted Warfare, about warfare in the age of globalization. Their main argument: Warfare in the modern world will no longer be primarily a struggle defined by military means — or even involve the military at all.

They were about a decade and a half before their time.

Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui argued that war was no longer about “using armed forces to compel the enemy to submit to one’s will” in the classic Clausewitzian sense. Rather, they asserted that war had evolved to “using all means, including armed force or non-armed force, military and non-military, and lethal and non-lethal means to compel the enemy to accept one’s interests.” The barrier between soldiers and civilians would fundamentally be erased, because the battle would be everywhere. The number of new battlefields would be “virtually infinite,” and could include environmental warfare, financial warfare, trade warfare, cultural warfare, and legal warfare, to name just a few. They wrote of assassinating financial speculators to safeguard a nation’s financial security, setting up slush funds to influence opponents’ legislatures and governments, and buying controlling shares of stocks to convert an adversary’s major television and newspapers outlets into tools of media warfare. According to the editor’s note, Qiao argued in a subsequent interview that “the first rule of unrestricted warfare is that there are no rules, with nothing forbidden.” That vision clearly transcends any traditional notions of war.

Unrestricted Warfare was an explicit response to the reigning Western military orthodoxy of the time. The preface is dated January 17, 1999, which the authors note was the eighth anniversary of the outbreak of the 1991 Gulf War. In many ways, their argument refuted many of the Western lessons drawn from that conflict: that wars could be short, sharp, and dominated by high-technology weaponry used with stunning precision to shatter an enemy’s armed forces in hours or days. By 1999, U.S. military thinking was dominated by the revolution in military affairs and network centric-warfare, which relied on advanced technologies to give the United States total battlefield dominance.

But Qiao and Wang argued that the battlefield had fundamentally changed. It was no longer a place where militaries met and fought; instead, society itself was now the battlefield. Future wars would inevitably encompass attacks on all elements of society without limits. Military battles resembling those of 1991 might become secondary elements of conflict — if they even occurred at all.

In short, war that by and large does not SEEM to be war due to lack of naked high kinetic weaponry in action. War that is only visible as war once one recognises the involvement of ruthless domination and subjugation by use of force and deception. Force, that is often masked as legitimate actions (often, by turnabout projections of blame . . . maskirovka); force calibrated to seem legitimate to the superficial onlooker.

Force, that needs not involve state actors or states. Which, gives it its 4th generational character.

War waged by vultures in the shadows, not just obvious ones in the sky.

War, that is only over, when the vultures themselves are checkmated and irrecoverably defeated. With history signposted so they cannot regroup to rebrand and come again, as obviously has happened with Marxism’s shiny new brand, critical theories.

U/D6, Jan 19: Ms Clinton and Ms Pelosi, unsubstantiated accusation of treason, screenshot:

Comments
{SNIP — toxic distractor. It is noted on logic that once there is a reasonable ratchet triggering a slide downslope, a slippery slope concern is a serious matter of prudence. On matters of law and government, the rise of legal positivism is such a ratchet. Once law is severed from due balance of justice, it becomes whatever those who control legal presses issue. The open door to nihilism and lawless domination is patent. If you wish to discuss this matter of slippery slopes, without toxic distractors, it is a reasonable facet.} Once you start dictating the conversation, telling us what we can and cannot discuss, how are you different from all the people you rail against? Those 'leftist' who you feel are forcing you to acknowledge certain things? I'm happy to discuss the matter of slippery slopes . . . but don't you need a topic? What topic?JVL
January 12, 2021
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[SNIP, sidetrack, with personalities, showing the issue of toxic distraction]AndyClue
January 12, 2021
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{SNIP -- toxic distractor. It is noted on logic that once there is a reasonable ratchet triggering a slide downslope, a slippery slope concern is a serious matter of prudence. On matters of law and government, the rise of legal positivism is such a ratchet. Once law is severed from due balance of justice, it becomes whatever those who control legal presses issue. The open door to nihilism and lawless domination is patent. If you wish to discuss this matter of slippery slopes, without toxic distractors, it is a reasonable facet.} JVL
January 12, 2021
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F/N: U/D1 is added to the OP. An infographic with an adaptation of Overton Window analysis to the push of the new Jacobins. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2021
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This new sock puppet "Steve Alten2", not only has the same family history of a recently banned insipid troll, it also "argues" just like that troll. {I request that rhetorical voltage be turned down. This stands as an example of where we should not further go.} [SNIP -- as warned, do not feed distractions and trollery. Yes, once natural law and prudence are violated there are no limits but what the lawless oligarchs can get away with, that is a FEATURE not a bug for the warped]ET
January 11, 2021
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F/N: It is convenient to start with the Overton Window. As can be seen, it is keyed to the conventional L/R political spectrum and I have modified it to show that the window is bordered by walkaway points, the BATNAs. This assumes first a reasonable political balance so the two sides have to live with one another, making politics an affair of the centre and compromise. This is the first key, what happens when Jacobin radicals are able to so seize power that there is no L-ward BATNA, as those deemed R have been marginalised and dominated, often by some sort of revolution? The answer is, of course a ruthless contest for the left, leading to reigns of terror pivoting on demonising, scapegoating and persecuting whoever is on the R or what is now the truncated R after the last slice of the salami was cut off. (Notice, this is Niemoller's complaint, ironically prominently displayed at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC.) Of course, the second key is, there is no coherent definition of the "Right." There are many demonising labels, such as Nazi, of course. This should already sound very familiar as we watch the McFaul colour-culture revolution push in progress, now nearing show trial, kangaroo court and tribunal lawfare. There is a more relevant spectrum, based on history, as is in the OP. The extreme, repeller pole is the state of nature or anarchy, which is so hostile that society on almost any terms, is preferred. Autocracy is strictly infeasible as no one person can rule a nation, Exodus 18 is an interesting note on how Moses learned that lesson. Democracies of old tended to fatal factions, demagoguery and manipulation by the powerful. So, historically, the more or less sustainable answer has always been, oligarchy. Up to 1650 - 1789, the contest was between lawless and lawful oligarchy. The latter, too often, being more hope than realisation. For the US, we need not trouble ourselves for now with the now clearly dying constitutional democracy with strong checks and balances on limited government. De-mock-racy is leading to oligarchy, under lawless ideologues of misanthropic jacobin character, as is the usual result of successful radical power pushes. Here, the point is that obviously an overton window between lawless jacobin oligarchy and constitutional democracy would be absurd. So, the jacobins have to hide the left from view and taint democracy as oppressive, applying salami slice methods to progressively weaken any BATNA that blocks them from where they want to go. 1984 or Animal Farm, take your pick. Hence, the Marcuse repressive [pseudo-] tolerance:
let’s just summarize the doctrine of repressive tolerance in plain English: Tolerance is only to be extended to truth. Leftism is objectively true, and anything other than leftism is not. Therefore tolerance is only to be extended to leftism. Anyone who disagrees with this has been indoctrinated. To the extent that the majority of people disagree, that means the majority of people are indoctrinated. Since most people are indoctrinated, leftists must break the indoctrination so that they can grasp the truth of leftism. To break the indoctrination, leftists must promote left-wing thought and suppress right-wing thought. Promoting left-wing thought is accomplished by changing “established universes of meaning” and actively presenting “information slanted in the opposite direction,” e.g. by political correctness and propaganda. Suppressing right-wing thought is accomplished by withdrawing the freedom of speech, press, and assembly for anyone who disagrees with leftists on race, gender, religion, armament, public services, social security, or healthcare, e.g. deplatforming us entirely. If necessary to withdraw these freedoms, leftists must operate at such scale that the actions cease to be non-violent and become revolutionary violence. Leftists who use revolutionary violence are not to be condemned by any leftists. In brief, the doctrine holds that left-wing speech, assembly and even violence must be praised and promoted; while right-wing speech, assembly, and especially violence must be condemned, suppressed, and punished. And that doctrine is being implemented 24/7/365 . . .
In that context, we need to ask, how do we see such emerging? The pillars/mountains of influence society map shows the pattern. Societies are under the aegis of a dominant worldview and cultural/policy agenda that is supported by dominant institutions like the roof of a temple, so there is mutual stabilisation. The key is worldview and policy shaping institutions. Education, media, law and government. Arts, artistic culture and entertainment here being informal education. Through the lab coat nof evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers including radical secularist rationalism and hyperskepticism, the natural law anchored in first duties was undermined and government became a matter of power not due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. Down that road, the warping of individual identity, family and marriage were accomplished. And more. That is how we have come to this off the cliff moment. I can only say that a Pearl Harbor type operation is always strategic overstretch and a Midway is coming. There is a real BATNA, and the walkaway options are in the hands of an undefeated western people facing an existential threat. They were not ready for a Kido Butai attack, but once they recover enough, they will come relentlessly with grim resolve. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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F/N, it is obvious that for many objectors, inescapable, self evident first duties and principles of reason are inconvenient obstacles, rather than guiding stars. Such, even as in their attempts at argument they are forced to depend on these self-same principles. Accordingly, they wish to engage on controversial, often toxic side issues while refusing to acknowledge relevance, applicability or presence even of such. That is itself a highly important result; the issue is not in reality first principles and duties, but instead worldview and cultural agenda, with power balances and narrative dominance. So, we will have to turn to issues of the seven mountains/pillars of influence, how business as usual forms, how the overton window warps ability to respond appropriately and how resulting marches of folly lead to needless ruin. Indeed, we may even have to touch on how the ideal of democracy can too often become the ugly and fatal reality de-mock-racy. And BTW, they wish to suggest fear and even hint at cowardice. They forget that the issues they obsess over were discussed at length here already, showing the want of justification for warping the recognition of the natural reality and complementarity of the sexes. There is no need to further descend into matters of perversities and pathologies that provoke natural and justified disgust; which is relevant though not politically correct. The underlying issue is that the frame which has led to the dominant narrative is in the end ruinous. Though those who promote it will of course refuse to acknowledge it. In prudence, we must. There is no need to go back into such matters and further forays to drag the thread off course into such will be removed for cause. We have already won the first key result, that the first duties and principles are as described, now we progress to the real problem, how our civilisation's cultural agenda has been led off course into irrationality (and too often nihilism, too), often dressed up in a lab coat. As was, of course, eugenics. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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Basically every attack on free speech in history revolves around some alleged need for safety. Is this true? Whose safety? Could it be changed to read.
Basically every attack on freedom in history revolves around some alleged need for safety.
Probably not since slavery was mainly about other things.jerry
January 11, 2021
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Steve Alten2: To ban SSM all that those who oppose it have to do is to demonstrate that granting marriage to same sex couples causes undue harm to society or to others. Something they have failed to do. +1JVL
January 11, 2021
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JVL, to me the entire SSM debate revolves around the issue that marriage is a human made institution. A formal promise made by one person to another, in front of the public. Governments have adopted marriage as a legal contract that entail certain obligations and benefits. I think we all agree that, for the most part, society as a whole benefits by these marriage contracts. To ban SSM all that those who oppose it have to do is to demonstrate that granting marriage to same sex couples causes undue harm to society or to others. Something they have failed to do.Steve Alten2
January 11, 2021
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Kairosfocus: I am gavelling a side discussion on various sexual disorders, habits, behaviours and fashionable trends. I had requested that we avoid such but obviously, some seem to be obsessed. Those who want genuine answers can go elsewhere where such are on offer to those willing to acknowledge. KF, thread owner. Why are you afraid to discuss those issues? They have to do with application of first principles, good reasoning, etc. But you run away from them. Why? Are you saying you don't accept those issues as being real? And why is that? Because you're not interested in a discussion about them? Because you've made up your mind and you're never, ever going to consider changing it? Because you'd have to admit you're in favour of imposing your viewpoint on others?JVL
January 11, 2021
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Kairosfocus: Where ought governs reason itself, that is that pivotal. Thus, the importance of first duties. How does 'ought' affect or influence decisions about things like gender-reassignment surgery or same-sex marriage?JVL
January 11, 2021
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Jerry: These are bogus issues essentially because they are non issues. If someone disagrees I suggest they show why/how they are meaningful. Members of the LGBTQ community think they are being discriminated against, they are being marginalised and ostracised. They think people want to deprive them of the same legal rights as heterosexuals: the right to marry, to be open about their preferences, the right to not have to hide for fear of persecution. That is meaningful because all people should be treated equally by law. Correct?JVL
January 11, 2021
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Will Elon Musk double his fortune?
A lot of people are going to be super unhappy with West Coast high tech as the de facto arbiter of free speech Probably commenting on @signalapp will do more Gab.com @getongab Replying to @elonmusk Let’s chat.
Will Donald Trump set up a media network dedicated to fair, accurate and balanced news coverage.?jerry
January 11, 2021
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Brit Hume
Racial discrimination, plain and simple.
"Our priority will be Black, Latino, Asian, and Native American owned small businesses, women-owned businesses, and finally having equal access to resources needed to reopen and rebuild." — President-elect Biden
If you lost Angela Merkel, that most famous Trump lover of all
Angela Merkel Slams Twitter’s Decision To Ban Trump: ‘Problematic’ Violation Of ‘Fundamental Right’
https://www.dailywire.com/news/angela-merkel-slams-twitters-decision-to-ban-trump-problematic-violation-of-fundamental-rightjerry
January 11, 2021
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VL, yes prunes is a matter of tastes, moral issues are about is vs ought. Where ought governs reason itself, that is that pivotal. Thus, the importance of first duties. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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Remembering that some of those occupying the US capitol last week bore Confederate flags. Some of them were admitted neo-Nazis. So, tell us, how to move forward?
An emphasis on “some.” So an admitted few are used to characterize everyone. Logical fallacy of small numbers. Essentially such statements are refuting claims against Trump and conservatives. Implying such lies is what leads to polarization. And by the way some were Antifa. But I make no claim they were the problem. Also were those at the Capitol listening to Trump? Apparently not. https://thenationalpulse.com/breaking/ex-capitol-police-chief-says-pelosi-mcconnells-sergeants-at-arms-refused-security-measures-while-new-timeline-proves-trump-incitement-claims-bogus/ Want to move forward then tell
The Truth
I suggest everyone read Sharyl Attiksson’s book, “Slanted” to see the lies people are told and then believe.
LGBTQ issues are part of the discussion. Racial discrimination is part of the discussion. Equal representation under the law is part of the discussion.
These are bogus issues essentially because they are non issues. If someone disagrees I suggest they show why/how they are meaningful.jerry
January 11, 2021
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re 127. KF, liking prunes is not a moral issue, so I don't see your point. And JVL, your last paragraphs of 128 are good.Viola Lee
January 11, 2021
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Kairosfocus: As for Mr Scot perhaps my memory is bad but I think he left. That's not what I remember. I think it was a power struggle behind the scenes at this site. n any case, this, too is tangential, and no I will not go into various forms of pathological behaviour; there are plenty of places that give good discussions, for those willing to accept. Homosexuality is NOT pathological behaviour! Talk about poisoning the well and straw man tactics!! We are talking to you, to find out how you evaluate such issues. Why are you so afraid to discuss them? Why? This thread has a proper focus on something absolutely pivotal to sorting out what we will need to do to rebuild. And tolerance of people who's lifestyle choice you disagree with has nothing to do with that? Really? If these are not fixed the sort of onward things you want to get into opinion contests over cannot be soundly resolved. LGBTQ issues are part of the discussion. Racial discrimination is part of the discussion. Equal representation under the law is part of the discussion. What is it you want? Why don't you spell that out then. Tell us how you would move the US (in particular) forward given the very deep divisions now clear. Remembering that some of those occupying the US capitol last week bore Confederate flags. Some of them were admitted neo-Nazis. So, tell us, how to move forward?JVL
January 11, 2021
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VL, I like prunes vs I detest the things is worlds apart from say the ongoing holocaust of the unborn or abuse of monopoly media power to censor and slander etc. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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NOTICE: I am gavelling a side discussion on various sexual disorders, habits, behaviours and fashionable trends. I had requested that we avoid such but obviously, some seem to be obsessed. Those who want genuine answers can go elsewhere where such are on offer to those willing to acknowledge. KF, thread owner.kairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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VL, I spoke to general circumstances, a live case appears in L&FP no 3. As for Mr Scot perhaps my memory is bad but I think he left. In any case, this, too is tangential, and no I will not go into various forms of pathological behaviour; there are plenty of places that give good discussions, for those willing to accept. This thread has a proper focus on something absolutely pivotal to sorting out what we will need to do to rebuild. If these are not fixed the sort of onward things you want to get into opinion contests over cannot be soundly resolved. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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This is from the Pew Research group, in 2015. I'd guess the acceptance rate has gone up:
Most U.S. Christian groups grow more accepting of homosexuality BY CARYLE MURPHY Almost all Christian groups now more accepting of homosexuality Acceptance of homosexuality is rising across the broad spectrum of American Christianity, including among members of churches that strongly oppose homosexual relationships as sinful, according to an extensive Pew Research Center survey of U.S. religious beliefs and practices. Amid a changing religious landscape that has seen a declining percentage of Americans who identify as Christian, a majority of U.S. Christians (54%) now say that homosexuality should be accepted, rather than discouraged, by society. While this is still considerably lower than the shares of religiously unaffiliated people (83%) and members of non-Christian faiths (76%) who say the same, the Christian figure has increased by 10 percentage points since we conducted a similar study in 2007. It reflects a growing acceptance of homosexuality among all Americans – from 50% to 62% – during the same period. Among Christians, this trend is driven partly by younger church members, who are generally more accepting of homosexuality than their elder counterparts. For example, roughly half (51%) of evangelical Protestants in the Millennial generation (born between 1981 and 1996) say homosexuality should be accepted by society, compared with a third of evangelical Baby Boomers and a fifth of evangelicals in the Silent generation. Generational differences with similar patterns also are evident among Catholics, mainline Protestants and members of the historically black Protestant tradition.
Viola Lee
January 11, 2021
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I don't think that most Muslims would like to see homosexuals hang. Just as with Christianity there is a spectrum of Muslims, from fundamentalists to liberals. Here's a more balanced view, I think.
https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam LGBTQ EQUALITY ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION & GENDER IDENTITY It is rare that an openly LGBTQ Muslim feels fully welcome at a mainstream mosque in the United States. Cultural norms and traditional readings of sacred texts often uphold a heteronormative binary of gender identification and sexual orientation that don’t allow for the range of identities present in today’s society. However, according to a recent survey by Public Religion Research Center, more than half (52%) of American Muslims ageed that "society should approve of homosexuality." A growing number of Islamic scholars, mainly in the West, have started re-examining Islamic teachings on same-sex relationships and whether a blanket condemnation of LGBTQ people is a misinterpretation. There are also growing opportunities for alternative and meaningful worship and community. Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) has founded Unity Mosques in Atlanta, GA; Columbus, OH; and Los Angeles, CA. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity hosts a retreat for LGBTQ Muslims in Pennsylvania each year. MECCA Institute was recently established as an online school for the study of an inclusive theology of Islam for those seeking more expansive and inclusive interpretations of Islamic texts. Transgender men and women are recognized and accepted in many Islamic cultures around the world. In fact, the idea of a man or woman identifying as a member of the opposite gender is more likely to be accepted than that of a man or woman expressing sexual desire for someone of their own gender. As early as 1988, gender reassignment surgery was declared acceptable under Islamic law by scholars at Egypt’s Al-Azhar, the world’s oldest Islamic university. In Iran, in 1987, Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable. The basis for this attitude of acceptance is the belief that a person is born transgender but chooses to be homosexual, making homosexuality a sin. Nevertheless, many transgender Muslims after reassignment surgery suffer rejection, socially and culturally, in their own communities due to their remaining in their place of origin. If one is unable to relocate to another region where they are not known, they often suffer verbal and physical violence.
Viola Lee
January 11, 2021
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@JVL:
Homosexuality is no longer consider a perversity in case you hadn’t noticed.
That's not true. There are 2 billion muslims out there. Most of them would like to see homosexuals hang. And Christians who accept homosexuality as normal are in a minority.AndyClue
January 11, 2021
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Kairosfocus: Just as an example duties to truth include to be accountable to accurate description of reality, addressing warrant involving use of the first principles of reason starting with the principle of distinct identity and its close corollaries, non contradiction and excluded middle. Okay, those sound good. How do they apply in the question of gender-reassignment surgery? One of my questions is: how does it affect you if someone chooses to go through gender-reassignment surgery? Lots and lots of women have cosmetic surgery to change the way they look, what's the difference? Why does it bother you so much? Au contraire, it is obvious that duties to truth mean to be accurate to reality, to right reason, to follow the canons of logic, to prudence includes right reason applied to habitual practice, here including duty to warrant claims. But are those applicable when talking about personal preferences or desires? It seems to me that then the issues are more along the lines of: does it harm anyone? And that is what you have not addressed. Along with not being very specific about how your above criteria apply to a case like gender-reassignment surgery? If we went back 200 years and you were a slave and you wanted to stop being a slave someone could say to you: hey, look at reality, you're better off being under my care than not, it's our habitual practice, we've been doing it for decades maybe even hundreds of years, etc. This is why I want you to be specific, spell out how you apply your criteria to the case of gender-reassignment surgery. Or divorce. Or same-sex marriage. Or women being allowed to vote. Or banning slavery. What about allowing people to worship Mohammed? Or believing in the Mormon precepts? the first duties, as already pointed out are inescapable, indeed they lurk in the very objection you make. That is why they are inescapably true and self-evident. In fact, they are antecedent to proofs or warrants. Again, general statements without showing how they apply in a particular, topical situation. A capital , relevant example are the Marxists, especially the critical theory marxists who are currently running the strategic board and failing to understand that after pearl Harbor comes Midway. Really? I think you'd best spell that out otherwise I'd say that was a bridge too far. generally people who are banned from UD are banned for disruptive behaviour, for cause. How about Dave Scot? Why was he banned? We are not going to turn this thread into a debate on sexual perversities, linked psychological disorders and fashionable notions. Homosexuality is no longer consider a perversity in case you hadn't noticed. But, since you feel that way, why not spell out how your precepts and principles and axioms apply to that case. 1: Analogy, Induction and the power of the principle of identity (with application to the genetic code) That's just your opinion though isn't it? Isn't real identity what goes on in your head? How you choose to define yourself? What is true to yourself? Don't we all think you should be true to yourself? Do you want to dictate to people what they should consider true to themselves? I think you don't understand that I have actually read a lot of what you have posted over the last several years. I agree with you about a lot of things. I disagree with you about a lot of things. I'm interested in finding some middle ground where we can live peacefully together. So, I'm interested in how your precepts and principles and axioms apply to particular cases so that I can enter into a more meaningful dialogue with you. I do not want to put words in your mouth, I want to hear your case first, as clearly and as cogently as you can present it. But you continually talk in generalities and high-above the fray comments. Why not pick a topic, like gender-reassignment surgery, and be very specific and clear about why you feel the way you do about that topic? You're insistence that such areas are sliding into 'sexual perversities' is blinkered and way behind the times. This is exactly the sort of thing lots and lots of people have to deal with every day. You don't help anyone by refusing to address such things in a straightforward and clear manner. Why does gender-reassignment surgery violate your principle of credible warrant? Be specific. On moral issues, there are persistent, pernicious fallacies tied to relativism, subjectivism, emotivism etc. These incoherent systems need to be surrendered; however that is now a settlement by force issue in our civilisation that has lost its way. Then what is your proposal for dealing with gender-reassignment surgery or same-sex marriages? An out-and-out ban? On what grounds? What explanation would you give? What legal grounds would you cite?JVL
January 11, 2021
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VL, I will take your exchange to be over where do serious disagreements come from. A good question, one I was asking myself as a young uni student. A first issue is, oftentimes, issues are rhetorical or emotive or appeals to authorities in contest or due to want of basic clarity or fallacies. These, we set aside. Apart from noting that emotional intensity and authorities themselves have weak probative value. However, emotions may rest on accurate perceptions and sound expectations. Authorities may build credibility but in the end are no stronger than facts and logic. Hence, warrant comes from facts [so warrantedly true claims] and logic, with varying strength depending on type of logic and associated assumptions or axioms. More serious disagreements generally come from worldviews and cultural agendas leading to issues of the main power centres in a society. Worldviews generally bristle with difficulties so comparative difficulties analysis becomes a main philosophical method. Factual adequacy, coherence, explanatory power -- neither ad hoc nor simplistic. When power games come into play or such move up to war, force not reason decides in the short term. Longer term, sustainability. Here I mark a distinction, violence is illegitimate use of force. On moral issues, there are persistent, pernicious fallacies tied to relativism, subjectivism, emotivism etc. These incoherent systems need to be surrendered; however that is now a settlement by force issue in our civilisation that has lost its way. KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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Cont'd: 7a SM: Is the slippery slope argument ALWAYS fallacious? https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/sm-is-the-slippery-slope-argument-always-fallacious/ 8 Logic & First Principles 8: Bridging the Wigner MATH-PHYSICS GAP (with help from phase/ configuration/ state space) https://uncommondescent.com/physics/logic-first-principles-8-bridging-the-wigner-math-physics-gap-with-help-from-phase-configuration-state-space/ 9 Logic and First Principles, 9: Can we be “certain” of any of our views or conclusions? https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/logic-and-first-principles-9-can-we-be-certain-of-any-of-our-views-or-conclusions/ 10 Logic and First Principles, 10: Knowable Moral Truth and Moral Government vs. Nihilistic Manipulation https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/logic-and-first-principles-10-knowable-moral-truth-and-moral-government-vs-nihilistic-manipulation/ 11 Logic and First Principles, 11: The logic of Ultimate Mind as Source of Reality https://uncommondescent.com/mind/logic-and-first-principles-11-the-logic-of-ultimate-mind-as-source-of-reality/ 12 Logic and First Principles, 12: The crooked yardstick vs plumb-line self-evident truths https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/logic-and-first-principles-12-the-crooked-yardstick-vs-plumb-line-self-evident-truths/ 13 Logic and First Principles, 13: The challenge of creeping scientism (and of linked nominalism) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/logic-and-first-principles-13-the-challenge-of-creeping-scientism-and-of-linked-nominalism/ Do we need more? KFkairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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F/N: Linking the first several OP's on right reason: 1 Logic & first principles, 1: Analogy, Induction and the power of the principle of identity (with application to the genetic code) https://uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/logic-first-principles-analogy-induction-and-the-power-of-the-principle-of-identity-with-application-to-the-genetic-code/ 2 Logic and First Principles, 2: How could Induction ever work? (Identity and universality in action . . . ) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/logic-and-first-principles-how-could-induction-ever-work-identity-and-universality-in-action/ 3 Logic & First Principles, 3: The roots of right reason and the power/limits of entailment https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/logic-first-principles-3-the-roots-of-right-reason-and-the-power-limits-of-entailment/ 4 Logic & First Principles, 4: The logic of being, causality and science https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/logic-first-principles-4-the-logic-of-being-causality-and-science/ 5 Logic and first principles, 5: The mathemat-ICAL ordering of reality https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/logic-and-first-principles-5-the-mathemat-ical-ordering-of-reality/ 6 Logic and First Principles, 6: Reason/Rationality and Responsibility (i.e. moral government) are inextricably entangled https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/logic-and-first-principles-6-reason-rationality-and-responsibility-i-e-moral-government-are-inextricably-entangled/ 7 Logic and First Principles, 7: The problem of fallacies vs credible warrant https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/logic-and-first-principles-7-the-problem-of-fallacies-vs-credible-warrant/ More . . .kairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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JVL, 113: First, there is an outline in the OP on first duties and principles of right reason, where also there is actually a near 40-member series I did on those principles, also above in 96 I addressed the first triad. Just as an example duties to truth include to be accountable to accurate description of reality, addressing warrant involving use of the first principles of reason starting with the principle of distinct identity and its close corollaries, non contradiction and excluded middle. Now, I turn to particular remarks: >>It doesn’t help at all because you haven’t stated your first principles or standards of rationality and how they relate to the issue. You’ve only drawn the line part way; connect all the dots and make it clear.>> Au contraire, it is obvious that duties to truth mean to be accurate to reality, to right reason, to follow the canons of logic, to prudence includes right reason applied to habitual practice, here including duty to warrant claims. the first duties, as already pointed out are inescapable, indeed they lurk in the very objection you make. That is why they are inescapably true and self-evident. In fact, they are antecedent to proofs or warrants. >>And who are their heirs then? [the Jacobins] The Democrats? The Labour Party? The Lib-Dems? Or anyone who espouses certain views?>> The course of history since 1789 makes that plain, actually. A capital , relevant example are the Marxists, especially the critical theory marxists who are currently running the strategic board and failing to understand that after pearl Harbor comes Midway. KF PS: generally people who are banned from UD are banned for disruptive behaviour, for cause. PPS: We are not going to turn this thread into a debate on sexual perversities, linked psychological disorders and fashionable notions.kairosfocus
January 11, 2021
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