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How do we move civilisation (and especially science, tech and math) forward?

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We are clearly in an age of reversion to oligarchic domination and lockout of dissent, so the issue is that of formation of a counter-culture, starting with the life of the mind.

H’mm, as a preliminary, let us look briefly at a refresher on a more useful ideological/political spectrum than the usual LEFT/RIGHT (which has no coherent definition of centre and right, where also Nazism/Fascism is actually of the left . . . contrary to popular notions):

This is necessary because, regrettably, power dominates over essentially anything, especially in a time of deep polarisation. We can map that through the seven mountains/pillars of influence model:

This naturally points to the cliff metaphor and warning:

Let me add, that with our bounded rationality, we need to ponder the limitations on how we think:

For there to be a choice, there has to be sober-minded thinking through of issues in fora that are not unduly censored, by people who rise above small-p party-spiritedness. Or else we turn Mencken’s cynicism into prophecy:

Accordingly, the first substantial issue is inescapable first duties of reason; which also happen to be pivotal to sound framing of law and government as well as opening the door to understanding roots of reality in a world with significantly free, rational, responsible, morally governed creatures — arguably, including us:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason, 

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

 7 – justice 

x – etc.

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, “natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate’s cynical “what is truth?”: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence — in key part — the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”  [NB: This implies that through sound reason and balanced, insightful judgement applied to the material evidence, factors, claims and circumstances in a situation (which may often be clouded, contentious and confusing or even willfully distorted by deceivers),  we soundly discern and warrant truth and risks or uncertainties . . . yes, we need to ponder and warrant degrees of risk and uncertainty . . . so we can confidently, soberly act as we are rightly guided. This requires that we act through trained, experienced wisdom that delights in “solid food” which is “for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.” [Heb 5:14.]

And yes, we find here no comfort for those inclined to remain over-long at the milk stage: “everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child” [v. 13]. Indeed, in the Proverbs, the simple youth are counselled to study the proverbs, precisely “to give prudence to the simple” [Prov 1:4.]  

There is no wrong in being young, simple and naive, but this is a mark of baby-hood,  and a healthy child grows beyond that stage in good time. Long delay in immaturity and in struggling to learn and master the simple is not a good sign: “though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food.” [Heb 5:12. It is of course just after this that the author points to the famous six foundational, ABC principles in 6:1 – 2, repentance, faith, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, eternal judgement. This is what the “milk” is. Note, it is led by meta + noia, a profound change in attitude, thought patterns and inclination of life leading to a right-about turn from the wrong, false and foolish to the ways of truth and right in love to God and man.]

This, too, is how prudence becomes “auriga virtutum — the charioteer of the virtues” (as Aquinas put it); the skilled steersman who guides and controls the chariot. Or even, the ship of state (what is implicitly in view in the Proverbs: “[t]he proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel”, Prov 1:1).

From this, we may also see how the first duties naturally fall into a logical chain in light of the key factors, loving God who is Truth Himself, and loving Neighbour made in God’s image just as we are; with sound conscience as pivot:

[i] truth –> right reason –> prudence, so sound conscience clears for action. Then, through the voice of sound conscience,
[ii] love for neighbour who is as we are requires fairness and justice etc.]

Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law.

The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.

This is where we must begin. Without this, there is no basis for that comity required to have sound academic disciplines, much less general public policy or even current events discussion. The ever-eager Red Guard censors are at our heels.

The case of Mathematics is central.

Mathematics, being best understood as [The study of] the logic of structure and quantity, where certain core intelligible mathematical facts are framework to any possible world (= a sufficiently complete chain of propositions describing a possible state of affairs), and lead to a programme of analysis and elaboration of logic-model worlds that may then apply to relevant situations of interest. For example, per von Neumann:

{} –> 0
{0} –> 1
{0,1} –> 2
. . . .
{0,1,2 . . .) –> w, omega

From reflecting on the principle of distinct identity, we see that for a world W to be distinct from some arbitrarily close neighbour W’, we have some A in W that is not in W’, so

W = {A|~A} and also W = {A|W’}, thence,

we see the partition | is empty, manifesting nullity.

A is a simple and ~A = W’ is a complex, unity.

With distinct unities, we find duality, and already we see that von Neumann’s framework applies to any distinct world.

It is truly universal, i.e. we find the natural counting numbers, N as an abstract structure necessarily present in and framework to any possible world.

From N, we can define additive inverses so for n in N, -n is such that n + (-n) = 0, i.e. we have that vector set where elements have both size and direction in an abstract space, the integers Z. Taking ratios, we have the rationals, Q. Reals bring in transfinite converging sums of rationals without repeating cycles when displayed in place value form, R. From that we go in a second orthogonal spatial direction, to C, using the j* rotating operator: j*x for all x in R defines the imaginary axis by anticlockwise rotation through one right angle and j*j* x is – x so we see j is sqrt – 1.

Beyond we define the hyperreals R* on the reals R being mileposted by N. H = 1/h, where h is smaller than 1/n for any finite n in N, where for any k in N the von Neumann succession continues k+1, k+2 etc, i.e. we cannot exhaust N stepwise. From this h is an infinitesimal hyperreal near 0; H is a transfinite integer hyperreal and we see a connected domain from zero and N,Z,Q,R to the hyper-domain R* such that any r in R may be surrounded by an infinitesimally altered cloud of form r + h, *r*, in effect vector shifting and adding the cloud *0* to r. (This allows us to use Robinson’s tamed infinitesimals and Model Theory etc to view Calculus as an extension of algebra.)

Notice, we have nowhere specified a particular individual world, this holds for any distinct world, for all possible worlds. It is reality-universal and possibility-universal. That is, a core domain of numbers, associated relationships and operations is a body of abstracta framework for any possible world, physical or imaginary. Hence, immediately, some of the universal power of both mathematics and logic. Hence too, we can recognise a category of beings, necessary, world framework entities; abstracta that constrain what is possible, by laying out constraints on possible being.

We can pause to summarise key first principles of right reason:

If we want a bit more on the first triad:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

Where, we may ponder Science and linked technology (Computing being in key part a technology of Mathematics, which obviously is not an empirical science but a logic-constrained and guided field of study), as a domain of inductive reason pivoting on inference to best current — hopefully progressive — explanation:

Abductive, inductive reasoning and the inherent provisionality of scientific theorising

These, we must not lose sight of, or all will be lost.

Going forward, that we are morally governed creatures has profound worldview import. For, at least one possible world, which is actualised, has in it such creatures. The root of all reality must be such that such a world is adequately accounted for.

That opens the door to serious consideration of ethical theism, which posits that the explanation for such a world is the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary [worlds-framework and so too eternal] and maximally great being.

These, we must not lose sight of. END

PS: Eugenics Congress:

Logo, 2nd Int’l Congress, Eugenics Movement, 1921 [HT: Wiki]

U/D1 Jan 12: An adapted Overton Window analysis, applied to the peril of the new Jacobins:

U/D2, Jan 13, the issue of the crooked yardstick:

In that light, consider Plato’s parable of the cave:

Not, as a fallacious cosmology but as a study on how a manipulated public reacts to truth. Ask yourselves, who is running the puppet shadow-show confused for reality and who is running the prison that locks up denizens from discovering the truth for themselves. (Then, ponder the course of current events.)

U/D3, Jan 18: Impact of cumulative evidence, as a part of first principles of reason in an inductive context:

Of chains, ropes and cumulative cases

U/D4 Jan 18, to point to the documentation of the McFaul Colour Revolution programme and the SOCOM Insurgency Escalator:

Where, note from the earlier U-Haul a Riot thread on red guard street theatre operations tied to radical Jacobin networks . . . there is much more behind that:

That is, it seems there is little matter of who is rioting to be addressed.

Where, this summary of points of concern by Navarro is a good place to begin pondering the “baseless” talking point that was used below to personally attack me as poster of the OP and host of the live event tracking threads:

U/D5, Jan 19: It is becoming apparent that as part of reforming thinking we need to re-orient our understanding of war, strategy and associated operations in light of the unlimited scope, full spectrum of force options, social- space- is- the- battlespace evolution of warfare under 4th generation war principles. First, while we may not be interested in war — in a world of ruthless geostrategic operators who lack power to simply steamroller those blocking imposition of their will — the vultures not the eagles — war may well be interested in us.

So, if near-perpetual war is in every sphere and across the spectrum of force options (most often non kinetic) we need to map the social space, so let me repeat the seven mountains/pillars of influence model:

Where, we can map the evolution of war:

In that context, let us note on Unrestricted Warfare, using a summary of the 1999 work by PLA Air Force Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui:

In 1999, two Chinese colonels wrote a book called Unrestricted Warfare, about warfare in the age of globalization. Their main argument: Warfare in the modern world will no longer be primarily a struggle defined by military means — or even involve the military at all.

They were about a decade and a half before their time.

Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui argued that war was no longer about “using armed forces to compel the enemy to submit to one’s will” in the classic Clausewitzian sense. Rather, they asserted that war had evolved to “using all means, including armed force or non-armed force, military and non-military, and lethal and non-lethal means to compel the enemy to accept one’s interests.” The barrier between soldiers and civilians would fundamentally be erased, because the battle would be everywhere. The number of new battlefields would be “virtually infinite,” and could include environmental warfare, financial warfare, trade warfare, cultural warfare, and legal warfare, to name just a few. They wrote of assassinating financial speculators to safeguard a nation’s financial security, setting up slush funds to influence opponents’ legislatures and governments, and buying controlling shares of stocks to convert an adversary’s major television and newspapers outlets into tools of media warfare. According to the editor’s note, Qiao argued in a subsequent interview that “the first rule of unrestricted warfare is that there are no rules, with nothing forbidden.” That vision clearly transcends any traditional notions of war.

Unrestricted Warfare was an explicit response to the reigning Western military orthodoxy of the time. The preface is dated January 17, 1999, which the authors note was the eighth anniversary of the outbreak of the 1991 Gulf War. In many ways, their argument refuted many of the Western lessons drawn from that conflict: that wars could be short, sharp, and dominated by high-technology weaponry used with stunning precision to shatter an enemy’s armed forces in hours or days. By 1999, U.S. military thinking was dominated by the revolution in military affairs and network centric-warfare, which relied on advanced technologies to give the United States total battlefield dominance.

But Qiao and Wang argued that the battlefield had fundamentally changed. It was no longer a place where militaries met and fought; instead, society itself was now the battlefield. Future wars would inevitably encompass attacks on all elements of society without limits. Military battles resembling those of 1991 might become secondary elements of conflict — if they even occurred at all.

In short, war that by and large does not SEEM to be war due to lack of naked high kinetic weaponry in action. War that is only visible as war once one recognises the involvement of ruthless domination and subjugation by use of force and deception. Force, that is often masked as legitimate actions (often, by turnabout projections of blame . . . maskirovka); force calibrated to seem legitimate to the superficial onlooker.

Force, that needs not involve state actors or states. Which, gives it its 4th generational character.

War waged by vultures in the shadows, not just obvious ones in the sky.

War, that is only over, when the vultures themselves are checkmated and irrecoverably defeated. With history signposted so they cannot regroup to rebrand and come again, as obviously has happened with Marxism’s shiny new brand, critical theories.

U/D6, Jan 19: Ms Clinton and Ms Pelosi, unsubstantiated accusation of treason, screenshot:

Comments
KF said:
WJM, the good reasons, as long as they are good, define a responsible view. If there emerges a flaw then the reasons lose warrant. In the case of taking the general sense of a common world independent of our minds, there is a world of reasons to accept and there is every good reason to reject what leads to the inference of grand delusion as we cannot even accept that verdict for our own rationality is bound up in the collapse. More can be said. KF
I've addressed that and shown your objections to be unfounded. You refused to debate it in that thread, saying you would address it at a later date. It's been months. Continue to avoid it if you want, but until you do, your position is inescapably, self-evidently false, and all your talk about moral duty and right reason flows from a nonexistent root.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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WJM, you just denied it. Life as first, gateway right is mirror image of the premise, that we must not shed innocent blood, one of the gravest of crimes. KF PS: Yes, I have cause to accept that the world is rooted in and sustained by eternal necessary ultimate mind but that does not lead to reducing it to a figment. Neither the minds of others.kairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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Here's what I have done that you have not, KF: I have followed right reason to accept inescapable facts about the nature of reality and existence. You have not. My reason flows from a solid, inescapable, provable, necessarily-true, SELF-EVIDENTLY TRUE foundation. Yours does not. You can either argue the most fundamental thing all else must begin with, or continue to avoid it.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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WJM, the good reasons, as long as they are good, define a responsible view. If there emerges a flaw then the reasons lose warrant. In the case of taking the general sense of a common world independent of our minds, there is a world of reasons to accept and there is every good reason to reject what leads to the inference of grand delusion as we cannot even accept that verdict for our own rationality is bound up in the collapse. More can be said. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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KF @201, Saying it isn't showing it.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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WJM, if your view leads you to deny the right to life, it is fatally flawed. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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SA2, consider the freshly fertilised ovum in the Fallopian Tubes. Already, 1/2 the time it is not even the same sex as his mother. The life is unmistakeably human, and it only requires naturally provided context to implant, grow and be born then nurtured. Why is it even remotely considered that such is in effect a parasite [as some rhetoric has suggested] or is not worthy of protection as a member of the human race? Mainly, yes, MAINLY, because it may be inconvenient, it is as yet immature and unable to speak for itself, it is vulnerable and it is so easily killed. The erosion of the BATNA of lawfulness in our civilisation started just there, leading to erosion of so much more then to the holocaust of the unborn and now we can see the leading country in our civilisation sliding into the vortex of tyranny -- just as Schaeffer and Koop warned. A lesson. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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There is no "right" to life, because life is not what most think it is. Life is inextinguishable and eternal. Nobody can stop or interfere in that regardless of what they do. A physical body is not "life."William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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F/N: I have added to the OP the issue of the crooked yardstick and an animated narration of the parable of the cave. resemblance to current events i/l/o the adapted overton window model is NOT a coincidence. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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Mike1962 "Well, no, that particular example is more complicated than that. A five month old fetus that has a heartbeat, brainwaves and can suck its thumb is not merely a fertilized egg." No argument there. But it still comes down to when the right to life begins, and whether it is absolute at every stage of development or incremental. That is where the disagreements begin, and both sides believe that they are using all of Karirosfocus' fundamentals to draw their conclusions. Obviously both sides can't be right, but Kairosfocus' procedure for determining this doesn't work in this respect, or in most respects as it is possible for two people to draw very different conclusions from the exact same data.Steve Alten2
January 13, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, no, there is good reason to accept that we live in the world our senses tell us it there.
There are good reasons for believing all sorts of things that are not true. You'll have to do better than that. The idea that we are experiencing an external, objective physical world is, as I have demonstrated via inescapable logic, a hypothesis that cannot even gather evidence to support it. It's literally impossible to gather evidence to support that hypothesis. The branch you are sitting on for all your "right reason" and "moral" arguments is pure, unsupported faith, attached to an imagined tree that cannot ever be evidenced, even in principle.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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WJM, no, there is good reason to accept that we live in the world our senses tell us it there. The same reason that leads us to reject Plato's Cave type cosmologies. let me add, though that Plato's Cave allows us to discuss the way a society can be manipulated -- who is running that puppet show and who is running the prison -- into accepting crooked ideological yardsticks as though they were sound, then denizens will be induced to attack what is sound, of course the end result is disaster. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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KF, There are many truths, KF. The FIRST duty is understanding accepting the truth about the nature of reality and existence. Absent that, you're starting in the middle. That's probably enough for people like JVL and VL who aren't equipped to understand that you're starting in the middle with these arguments. But I see what you're doing. Until you start at the beginning, you're just taking advantage of their inability to understanding you're sitting on a branch, the tree of which is being assumed and not addressed.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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WJM, yes that is why the first duty in the list is truth. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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JVL, you continue a campaign of toxic tangents and unfounded accusations. That speaks. That you seem to find it hard to acknowledge the obvious genetically stamped nature of men and women, linked biology of reproduction and import for family, child nurture and sustainable society also speaks. All I will say is that no assertion of rights and freedoms that then tries to impose on others that they deny such basic truths of distinct identity reflecting core characteristics as that men and women are both human and are the two complementary sexes is an attempt to impose deceit and subjugation under falsehood using false colours of rights and law. The implications for rise of tyranny are blatant i/l/o the adapted Overton Window model I put up yesterday,in the OP. Specifically, the breakdown of the BATNA that blocks a slippery slope slide into lawless ideological oligarchy . . . lawless oligarchy being the "natural" state of corrupt society, requiring conscious reforms to lift then keep out of such . . . is a menace to civilisation. Do I need to say again that Jacobinism is misanthropic, anticivilisational and ruinous? KF PS: Similarly, poverty at subsistence level with famines and plagues dominated by robber barons or outright brigands is the natural economic state. To create and sustain growing, widely distributed relative prosperity requires considerable effort tied directly to sound, lawful government that guards the civil peace of justice. That is also in the stakes.kairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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The first duty of reason is, necessarily, to understand and accept the nature of reality and existence. Until you get that right, you're running around blindly and saying things that have zero foundational merit.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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Let's move on to a more fundamental problem that exists with KF's (and others) argument: they assume a premise for all of it that is inescapably, provably wrong: that we all live in an objective, exterior reality, where our actions can interfere with, intervene on, and willfully affect the experience of others, giving us the moral obligation to think and behave in a manner that is observant of this existential situation. And, that there are not only universal moral rules, but those moral rules are enforced by an existential arrangement that naturally delivers outcomes based on ones moral behaviors and free will choices whether they agree to those outcomes or not. If that premise is flawed (and it unmistakably is,) then all that issues forth is flawed, the fruit of a rotten tree.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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BO'H: >>OK, so we all agree that, in practice, there are lots of reasons people don’t adhere to the “inescapable first duties of reason”.>> - this is vital, consistent right reason soundly, habitually applied to right -- including morally sound -- practice is hard. - agreement is crucial, and requires recognition that the self-evident first duties properly frame and can and do guide and correct thought, reasoning, argument, decision and action, all tied to warrant and discernment. >> But is it also possible that different people can adhere to these duties and come to different conclsions?>> - there are many things that are clear enough that we can trace disagreement to errors, gaps etc. - I have already highlighted issues of risk and uncertainty, which requires the prudence of managing same, knowledge of specific risks and uncertainties and of general possibilities such as unknown unknowns are themselves relevant knowledge of warranted truths. Where, one of the fallacies as you know is refusal to acknowledge objective warrant and resulting reliable albeit open ended weak sense knowledge. - beyond lies utter universal absolute reality and the issue of One who knows beyond all limitations we face. We might be well advised to seek his inherently good, utterly wise counsel. But that is just a reminder on the inherent humility in theism: we know in part, we see through a glass darkly . . . words that seem to be forgotten by too many objectors. - that said, I do not believe this is the material problem in this thread. In that sense it is a tilting after a strawman. For, we are dealing with first duties of reason that are inescapable, so inescapably true, that are thus self evidently true. Further, that as inescapable are inherent in every significant rational act from perception and thought to debate, decision and action; where acknowledgement of duty, relevance and abundant means of articulation is an obvious further duty. - there is no warrant on this matter to speak or suggest as though I were some would be autocratic tyrant imposing his will so that to disagree with me is to be wrong by virtue of mere disagreement. That is in fact rude and slanderous, it should not have been done, it should be retracted but on track record that is unlikely. - the point of tangent towards distraction has been repeated insistence on injecting toxic distractors and linked loaded insinuations which then build up into outright accusations. That is wrong. - I find it almost amusing but then sad to note that a day ago, I laid on the table a graphically structured model of how jacobins descend into reigns of terror so consistently, tied to the theme of the OP and using a modified Overton Window analysis with an alternative political spectrum, which is immediately relevant. I know this to be significant and widely relevant, not just to current events -- it is application of the first duties framework. Was that acknowledged as a case showing utility, no, too busy trying to belittle. That speaks. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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Okay, since JVL and VL are so bad it this, I'll take their side. KF argues on "natural law" grounds. You cannot argue on such grounds until you make the "natural law" case. IOW, just because human biology, short of cloning science, requires a man and a woman to procreate, so what? What difference does that make? Humans have imagined themselves past all sorts of natural limitations and have succeeded in doing so by using their imagination to develop all sorts of technologies and capacities that have moved them far beyond prior, natural restrictions of opportunity. Just because some things have been social norms doesn't make those social norms "right," even if those social norms are based on natural law. We live in a world where predation is a natural law; does that make the predation of the strong over the weak a "natural law" we should adhere to? One may argue that our duty to first principles, reason and moral duty supersede a natural law, such as predation. I assume this is from the moral obligation perspective, but this requires the elevation of the mental above the physical. Once you do that, "same sex marriage" is regulated to a mental/moral exercise, not a physical-limitation "natural law" argument. What then is the moral objection to same-sex marriage? You cannot have it both ways. If predation (will to power, the strong over the weak, slavery,) is wrong on moral grounds, explain why. Explain why same-sex marriage is wrong on moral grounds. You can't use the physical world to explain why something is immoral. The only answer is to refer to objective morality; which is a purely mental arena. IOW, might makes right can only be wrong if there is an objective morality that says so. Same sex marriage can only be wrong if there is an objective morality that says so. They cannot be argued to be wrong on a biological, socio-historical or natural-world basis. As far as I can tell, there is no rational, moral argument against same-sex marriage that doesn't require referral to some revelatory religious information, or picking and choosing which "natural laws" we're going to endorse and which ones we are going to condemn. Also, I repeat: you cannot get "civilization" right if it is built on an entirely erroneous concept of reality and the nature of our existence. You can't even know what a "right" or "morality" or "free will" or "responsibility" is until you get reality and existence right.William J Murray
January 13, 2021
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Kairosfocus: Fair comment, those who are busily trying to pretend to power to change things inextricably entangled with our core creation order will only succeed in creating chaos, directly and indirectly. But, as Plato warned in the Ship of State parable, factions are factions. I take this to mean, even though you don't state it as such, that men are men, women are women and they have been divinely designed to stay in their positions, no fiddling about with changing your gender or your non-reproductive coupling. Personal happiness and well-being is not the point. Of course, that was “narrow[-minded]” etc as it did not fit with fashionable agendas. The fashionable agendas and linked notions are wrong and chaotic. For cause, but I have no need to go haring off on yet another tangent. Same-sex marriage is wrong. Period. Gender-reassignment surgery is wrong. Period. No compromise, no discussion. disagreements are real, and often trace to accepting as facts or truths things that are not. So, it's not really about reasoning is it? It's about what you think are facts. And if you're wrong about any of those facts . . . then you might be wrong about your conclusions. nor, do I concede that trollish disruptive side tracking is a right. Fair warning having been given, rudely ignored, I took disciplinary measures to keep on track. Only to be slandered. Our questions are reasonable and current topics that a lot of people are dealing/struggling with. Advice or suggestions on how to proceed on those topics might be quite helpful in reducing conflict and coming to a compromise. That's why we're interested in your views. But some things you just won't talk about and your only response is: first principles and good reasoning. But you won't say specifically how your first principles apply; i.e. which first principle(s) are pertinent and being violated.JVL
January 13, 2021
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kf - OK, so we all agree that, in practice, there are lots of reasons people don't adhere to the "inescapable first duties of reason". But is it also possible that different people can adhere to these duties and come to different conclsions?Bob O'H
January 13, 2021
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BO'H: different conclusions are often shaped by different worldviews and cultural agendas, secondary level values and fact claims in conflict, conflicting claims to power or resources, gaps in understanding, failure to do due diligence to first duties (including refusal to acknowledge them and/or how they articulate to cases), wrong facts, fallacies, polarised emotions and any number of other reasons. A study of history provides all too abundant demonstration that we are finite, fallible, too often ignorant and ignorant of ignorance, morally struggling, stubborn, ill-willed, sometimes outright incompetent and worse. As you know and as we all know. None of this undermines the inescapability of first duties of reason, thus inescapable self-evident truth and pervasive presence in all cases of argument etc. Even the problem of lying acknowledges just how important and valuable truth is. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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PS: Plato's Ship of State:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
kairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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VL (attn, JVL): >>We’ve offered a variety of specific issues for KF to apply all his philosophical rhetoric, some of which, such as divorce, are relatively tame, but he won’t do it, because he can’t. >> - irresponsible mischaracterisation and accusatory inference - there is no obligation on my part to engage any and all tangents on yours [particularly toxic ones], I have warranted that first principles and duties of reason are inescapable and so inescapably true and self-evident. - this means, universally present and applicable, per undeniable warrant. The suggestion that I cannot apply is then a personality, in effect a demand to follow tangents on pain of being belittled. Such is rude and dishonest. - Weeks ago, divorce actually came up in another discussion, one where the distortion of the sexes and marriage was discussed. Christians were accused, as usual. I took time to point to Christian endorsement of core natural law and to apply a case of Dominical natural law reasoning, which applies to both divorce and to recognition of the naturally evident creation order for marriage, coeval with our humanity. - Fair comment, those who are busily trying to pretend to power to change things inextricably entangled with our core creation order will only succeed in creating chaos, directly and indirectly. But, as Plato warned in the Ship of State parable, factions are factions. - Of course, that was "narrow[-minded]" etc as it did not fit with fashionable agendas. The fashionable agendas and linked notions are wrong and chaotic. For cause, but I have no need to go haring off on yet another tangent. - There are sufficient examples in thread that any reasonably informed person willing to see relevance can apply. >>To KF there is no gap between those principles and what he himself believes to be the proper stance. He is the authority, and everyone else is deficient.>> - utterly needless, deliberately polarising slanderous projection, in obvious cause of evading the significance and applicability of first duties through throwing up a toxic cloud of distractions. Sad. - disagreements are real, and often trace to accepting as facts or truths things that are not. - In my observation, that literally starts with first duties of reason and first principles of reason as topics for first duties. It seems to extend now to rejecting or distorting or evading the means by which first duties and principles should shape our reflection, analysis and policy-making. - further to such, I have often spoken to how crooked yardsticks, key fallacious claims, notions, misconceptions and false principles, can and do so warp judgement that what is sound will be dismissed for failure to conform with crookedness. To address such requires naturally straight and upright plumb lines, self-evident first truths. Which is part of why the OP was put up and it is why a main example is core mathematics. There is a plumb line in the house. - I observed that in key cases, not even a plumb line will be accepted. It seems, we have such a case. - Further, as someone who has worked with sustainability, I have seen that many errors in policy are tied to poor assessment of risks and uncertainties. Sometimes, we can warrant knowledge on ignorance enough to have a probability distribution estimate. In others, we don't know enough to quantify. - Heaven help us, in some cases we face Mr Rumfeld's unknown unknowns; we don't even know that or where gaps are. So, in those cases a scenario based exploration of possibilities and alternatives can at least equip us with flexibility to face radical uncertainty. And that might not be enough. - Notice, refusal to recognise that I just might have relevant background and knowledge, as in warranted, credibly true and tested, reliable belief in a body accessible to decision-makers, so I am not merely exerting a demand to power and blind trust in personal say so. This, is belittling and unwarranted ad hominem, to dismiss a case that obviousl;y is resented but cannot be answered cogently by objectors. - Notice, again, I went all the way back to self-evident first principles and gave as a first case something decisive against relativism, subjectivism, emotivism, etc. Core Mathematics and why it is UNIVERSALLY applicable across actuality and possibility . . . answering Wigner's challenge. A significant result. - Further, notice, several further cases have been given, giving the lie to claims or insinuations that such cannot be articulated to concrete, relevant situations. Just, having already entertained certain toxic and disgusting distractors, I will not go there again. - nor, do I concede that trollish disruptive side tracking is a right. Fair warning having been given, rudely ignored, I took disciplinary measures to keep on track. Only to be slandered. - the upshot is clear, the main point of the OP is established and we see some of why Plato's Socrates described ruinous factions as he did. KFkairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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kf @ 179 -
The issue is warrant thus objectivity, not personality, not faction power struggles, not feelings, not some corrupt power structure or other.
But VL & SA2 are discussing this - if people are (as they think they are) being objective how can they reach different conclusions? Is it because they are not being objective in how they apply abstract principles of right reason? Or are they being objective but using secondary principles and opinions? Or are they mistaken about facts?Bob O'H
January 13, 2021
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VL (attn SA2): principles of right reason are in themselves a study, indeed an academic sub-discipline, logic; one of the core aspects of philosophy. However, they are inert, they are abstract, it is duty to follow such principles which activates. Similarly, there are other first duties of responsible reason, of similar weight and antecedence to reasoning, deciding, discussing, acting. Duty, to truth, accurate description of reality. Duty to prudence, right reason diligently and habitually applied to sound, right action . . . including, warranting claims. Duty to justice, duly balancing rights, freedoms, responsibilities . . . including recognising that no one has a right to compel another to do or to support evil (i.e. rights and freedoms claims must be limited by mutual consistency). And much more, I am actually astonished to have to specifically point this out and to have to repeat it. KF PS: Someone suggested that it was unjust to not permit women to run in marathon races, until the '70's. The obvious issue is, it would have been in doubt that it was sufficiently safe and organisers would have been liable per negligence were something to go wrong for even a few women admitted to run. I suspect, that view was modified at the time, the issue would have been why and what happened to the legal liabilities as opposed to politics and slanted reporting.kairosfocus
January 13, 2021
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PS: Thomas Sowell on duty to truth in an age of indoctrination, thus crooked yardsticks: https://www.wnd.com/2021/01/irrelevance-truth-age-indoctrination/
The irrelevance of truth in an age of indoctrination Thomas Sowell: For many people, what is true or false depends on who it helps or hurts politically Thomas Sowell By Thomas Sowell Published January 12, 2021 at 7:14pm It is amazing how many people seem to have discovered last Wednesday that riots are wrong – when many of those same people apparently had not noticed that when riots went on, for weeks or even months, in various cities across the country last year. [--> incoherence, violation of LNC, inevitably false, also a double standard, unjust and unfair, also, projection from fringe to any connected in remotest degree so slanderous accusation, censorship, persecution . . . cf. here] For too many people, especially in the media, what is right and wrong, true or false, depends on who it helps or hurts politically. [--> moral incoherence, fairness and justice] Too many media people who are supposed to be reporters act as if they are combatants in political wars. [--> a 4g war is in progress] Someone once said that, in a war, truth is the first casualty. That has certainly been so in the media – and in much of academia as well. [--> truth] One of the most grotesque distortions growing out of this carelessness with the facts [--> truth, he is euphemistic to be charitable, neighbour] has been a removal of Abraham Lincoln's name and statues from various places, on grounds that he saw black people only as property. [--> points to falsity and anti-civilisation consequences] Such criticisms betray an incredible ignorance of history – or else a complete disregard of truth. [--> to lie . . . ] As a lawyer, Abraham Lincoln knew that there was nothing in the Constitution which authorized him or any other president to free slaves. [--> diligence to facts] But he also knew that a military commander in wartime can legally seize the property of an enemy nation. Defining slaves as property gave President Lincoln the only legal authority he had to seize them during the Civil War. And once they were seized as property, he could then free them as human beings. But, if the Emancipation Proclamation had based its action on defining the slaves as human beings, with a right to be free, the Supreme Court of that era would undoubtedly have declared it unconstitutional. [--> fair comment on say Dred Scott] Millions of human beings would have remained slaves. Would ringing rhetoric be worth that price? As for the claim that Lincoln did not regard black people as human, he invited Frederick Douglass to the White House! Gross distortions of history in order to get Abraham Lincoln's name removed from schools tell us a lot about what is wrong with American education today . . .
Yet another concrete example.kairosfocus
January 12, 2021
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SA2 {& VL], there you go with relativism and personalisation as a fallacious habit again. The issue is warrant thus objectivity, not personality, not faction power struggles, not feelings, not some corrupt power structure or other. Apparently, it has never occurred, to relativists, that views or even conclusions . . . inevitably, morally tinged as first duties obtain inescapably . . . can be held on grounds of warrant per due diligence; no need to actually sort out from first principles and correct crooked yardsticks then. The issue is, how is reason governed, the answer is, inescapably -- so, universally and self-evidently [to try to deny is instantly absurdly self-refuting] -- by first duties. Failure to fulfill first duties is not a personalities clash on opinions. Nor, is fulfilling such duties in a real world situation simplistic, e.g. prudence is a virtue built up through sustained effort and experience. Skill in right reasoning on principles requires diligence. Understanding the significance of duty to neighbour thus fairness and justice, requires the same. Understanding the span from individual to institution, community, state and world is a civilisational project of centuries of effort, currently being widely disregarded in pursuit of dubious novelties that cannot pass even distinct identity. Similarly, the historic natural law view does not commit the fallacy of imagining that law is whatever those controlling legal presses issue, but articulates law to the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Bearing in mind that there can be no right to compel another to do or uphold one in a wrong . . . cf., why intimidation and censorship are now being resorted to to try to shore up a broken, bankrupt election process of low to no credibility. And much more. KFkairosfocus
January 12, 2021
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Steve Alten2: For example, the abortion issue revolves around whether or not you think the rights of a fertilized egg are equal to those of the pregnant woman. Well, no, that particular example is more complicated than that. A five month old fetus that has a heartbeat, brainwaves and can suck its thumb is not merely a fertilized egg.mike1962
January 12, 2021
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Yes, truth is critical. However, there is a difference between purely factual truth, such as perhaps x% of couples who marry get divorced, and other kinds of truth about less concrete things involved in values, principles, moral standards, opinions, interpretations of data, etc.Viola Lee
January 12, 2021
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