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ID’s influence on the next generation Creation/Evolution debate

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There is the common fallacy that ID was created to sneak creationism into public high schools. Actually, one could make the case that ID was created to sneak “creationism” into universities. 🙂

ID literature is more sophisticated than creation science literature, perhaps because it is (except for Of Pandas and People) usually directed more toward a university audience

Eugenie Scott
Eugenie Scott defeats Ed Brayton

and

I feel that the essential argument has to be carried on at the higher level, at the university level, and it’s interesting you see that the people that come from the NCSE side are always trying to say this is just an issue in the high schools

Phil Johnson

The link below is a video of a debate was between 3 Darwinists vs. 3 Creationist students of science. The Creationists relied heavily on ID materials and rarely appealed to theology or philosophy, they just kept pounding facts and mathematics and information theory and cybernetics.

The debate was, in some dimension, quite boring as what you’d expect from a dispassionate scientific inquiry. But that was also its strength. The Creationists appeared termperate, knowledgeable, and intelligent. A good fraction of their arguments came from ID literature, not from creation science literature or theology.

There was Raquel Murray, a Master of Science student in Modeling and Computational Science, with a BS in physics with math minor! Her proficiency in understanding biochemistry was amazing. Although her delivery was nervous and stuttering, her points were unassailable. She drew heavily, not on the Bible, but the work of atheist biologist Jack Trevors! Talk about a subtle and sophisticated line of argument! She made reference to the inability of any future discovery of physical law to thwart claims for the intelligent origin of information (the paradoxical fact that physics makes high levels of information possible but also simultaneously improbable, ala Shannon).

At best for the evolutionists, the debate was a draw, and the evolutionists had to rely on some fabricated “facts” (howlers such as the claim genetic code is created via thermodynamics, a total misinterpretation of this paper). If this is representative of the next generation in the Creation/Evolution debate at the university level, the creationists will fare very well. ID’s influence (which is not Bible based) is evident in its effect on biblical creationists. I didn’t watch the whole debate, but focused on the origin-of-life part of the debate and the origin-of-information part of the debate. The creationists were quite sophisticated in not making appeals to the authority of the Bible. They pounded the facts, math, information theory and cybernetics. God made the facts of nature, and He expects us to use those facts.

The way they argued reminded me of Phil Johnson’s admonition in dealing with Darwinists:

Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate

The creationist students, for the most part, did exactly that. Here is the video:

Creation vs. Evolution University Debate

NOTES:
Christ said in John 10:38

though you do not believe me, believe the works

Comments
Robert at 37:
Lots of replies here but it all comes down, As i see it, to the use of strata and fossils within it to craw conclusions about biological lineage. Right or wrong in its conclusions I insist its not science. Its not using the subject to prove itself by its own evidence.
Part of the problem for the evolutionists is that the strata don't always show the fossils that are supposed to be there.
Without the geology the biology would be wrong. SO i say its wrong to claim biological evolution or criticisms of it IS based on biological investigation. Evolutionists and ID however do this ! The error was in the methodology and only secondarily in the asserted evidence by evolutionists.
Science is an imperfect enterprise, and there will always be errors to deal with. The problem with evolution, though, is that the errors are ignored or made to fit the theory rather than revising the hypothesis or theory based on the data.Barb
May 28, 2013
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Barb Lots of replies here but it all comes down, As i see it, to the use of strata and fossils within it to craw conclusions about biological lineage. Right or wrong in its conclusions I insist its not science. Its not using the subject to prove itself by its own evidence. Without the geology the biology would be wrong. SO i say its wrong to claim biological evolution or criticisms of it IS based on biological investigation. Evolutionists and ID however do this ! The error was in the methodology and only secondarily in the asserted evidence by evolutionists. Evolutionism could of been turned into only a hypothesis, not a theory with presumed legitimate evidence making it so, long ago IF the geology had been ruled out of order as biological evidence. Fossils are mere biological data points and can't be used as evidence for biological descent or process. nor attack it on these points.Robert Byers
May 28, 2013
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Robert Byers@35:
geology is legitimate for geology but not for biology.
The two fields can be related, especially if you’re trying to determine which lifeforms live under which conditions (for example, the bizarre animals that live near deep sea vents). Both are legitimate fields of study and, at times, they intersect.
Biology conclusions , theories in them , must only be based on biology and must not be dependent on geology. Its a cheat. One can’t defeat the biology hypothesis/theory if one must first defeat the geology presumptions.
Some scientists would agree with you on that. For example, in 2009 an article in New Scientist magazine quoted evolutionary scientist Eric Bapteste as saying: “We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality.” The same article quotes evolutionary biologist Michael Rose as saying: “The tree of life is being politely buried, we all know that. What’s less accepted is that our whole fundamental view of biology needs to change.” The two fields became intertwined in the 19th century. Just two years before The Origin of Species was published, biologist and Harvard professor Louis Agassiz wrote that the living world shows “premeditation, wisdom, greatness” and that a major purpose of natural history was to analyze “the thoughts of the Creator of the Universe.” Charles Lyell’s Principles of Geology, the first volume of which appeared in 1830, cast doubt on the Bible’s creation account. Lyell claimed that the creation could not possibly have occurred in six literal days. Physicist Fred Hoyle wrote: “Lyell’s books were largely responsible for convincing the world at large that the Bible could be wrong, at any rate in some respects, a hitherto unthinkable thought.” A foundation was thus laid for skepticism. In the minds of many, science and the Bible could no longer be harmonized. Faced with a choice, many opted for science. “Lyell’s work had thrown the early chapters of the Old Testament into doubt,” Fred Hoyle wrote, “and Darwin’s book was there to replace it.”
Extract the geology from the evolution equation and there is no or little evidence for biological evolution. A historic blunder here that ID folks make too.
How do you explain plate tectonics?
YEC introduces our conclusions from the witness of the bible.
And, as mentioned before, this cannot happen in the United States. The Constitution says so.
YET our criticisms of our opponents don’t need the bible and are reliant on scrutiny of our opponents evidence. so we do a more pure job then ID because we deparate the geology from the biology.
How can you separate two fields of study that, as pointed out, intersect on occasion?
No cambrian explosion for us. Its illogical to attack evolution based on reading rocks showing just a snapshot in time. The time is wrong too.
If the Cambrian explosion is a myth, and radiocarbon dating is also wrong, then exactly what science are you basing your criticisms of your opponents on?Barb
May 28, 2013
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Barb@30 geology is legitimate for geology but not for biology. Biology conclusions , theories in them , must only be based on biology and must not be dependent on geology. Its a cheat. One can't defeat the biology hypothesis/theory if one must first defeat the geology presumptions. Extract the geology from the evolution equation and there is no or little evidence for biological evolution. A historic blunder here that ID folks make too. YEC introduces our conclusions from the witness of the bible. YET our criticisms of our opponents don't need the bible and are reliant on scrutiny of our opponents evidence. so we do a more pure job then ID because we deparate the geology from the biology. No cambrian explosion for us. Its illogical to attack evolution based on reading rocks showing just a snapshot in time. The time is wrong too.Robert Byers
May 27, 2013
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Does it not seem natural(!) that the mind should evince an affinity with the non-local quantum world, with which brute matter in its gross, spatio-temporal manifestation, seems so utterly at odds.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Surely, the mere feature of non-locality at the quantum level is definitive disproof of materialism.Axel
May 26, 2013
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I mean the other way round! Just testing you.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Wow, Sal (if I may make so bold). I'm the one extended the privilege. I only get the gist of the broader aspects of what you boffins discuss in your foreign language. I sometimes feel a great sense of comfort when I just come across a conjunction or a preposition I'm able to recognise. 'here was Raquel Murray, a Master of Science student in Modeling and Computational Science, with a BS in physics with math minor! Her proficiency in understanding biochemistry was amazing. Although her delivery was nervous and stuttering, her points were unassailable. She drew heavily, not on the Bible, but the work of atheist biologist Jack Trevors! Talk about a subtle and sophisticated line of argument! She made reference to the inability of any future discovery of physical law to thwart claims for the intelligent origin of information (the paradoxical fact that physics makes high levels of information possible but also simultaneously improbable, ala Shannon).' It is thrilling when someone seems to have total or near-total mastery of a subject, isn't it? I found that with William Lane Craig, the Christian apologist. And bornagain77 Philip, for all his modesty about his relative lack of formal tertiary accreditations is another one. I strongly suspect that his determined will to keep abreast of the latest research findings in physics and incorporate them into a grand synthesis, is (divinely) compulsive, and the reason for those relatively modest, formal accreditations. Thanks again for the welcome. PS Just caught me out on of those wretched, higher-maths Captcha thangs again! (9 x 6 is 54, not 72, isn't it?) Just out of practice, you understand.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Robert Byers @ 29:
Id’ers frustrate opposition to evolution because they insist on using geology as the foundation for biological investigation as does evolutionists.
Because geology is a legitimate scientific field of study. And ID is legitimately scientific.
Only YEC does true science when questioning evolution.
From your original post: "get the bible and Genesis into the discussion because its the truth." Now, I agree that the Bible is scientifically accurate, and this includes the book of Genesis. However, the separation of church and state in the US make this an impossibility.
Our own conclusions are different as coming from a witness but our criticisms of our opponents are founded in true scientific methodology.
Which is what, exactly? Peer review?Barb
May 26, 2013
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get the bible and gEnesis into the discussion because its the truth. ID is johnny-come-lately's. Id'ers frustrate opposition to evolution because they insist on using geology as the foundation for biological investigation as does evolutionists. Only YEC does true science when questioning evolution. Our own conclusions are different as coming from a witness but our criticisms of our opponents are founded in true scientific methodology. Seems that way to me.Robert Byers
May 26, 2013
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I’m from the UK, not the US
Hi from across the pond! Thanks for visiting our humble blog.scordova
May 26, 2013
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Gregory @ 20: That's a lot of ad hominem argumentation you've got there. And Darwin may not have been a theist, but he trained to be a priest (pastor might be a better description) in the Anglican Church prior to doing his work as a naturalist. Pretending he always was an agnostic or atheist doesn't work.Barb
May 26, 2013
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I'm from the UK, not the US, Greg. Does that make me a luminary? And I don't read the Bible much. It makes me home-sick. You can do better than that, Greg. I thought you'd gone from being an amiable nutter, to becoming unhinged. Then I thought your psychological defences had recovered; and now, to my chagrin (pronounced the French way, si possible), I find your rants have that certain edge I last heard from an Aussie soldier just returned from a spell in Vietnam shouting at Malaysian troops. What's upset you?Axel
May 26, 2013
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I wonder if it could be a factor in the Uncertainty Principle. It seems in any case, that non-locality casts a long shadow; or, rather, a rather dazzling light. It just seems like a shadow to our friends in the demi-monde of Self-Creationism, Aladdin's Multiverse, dirt-worship, etc.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Hi sixthbook, That is good to know. I may have to look into that class to see what it is they teach. Interesting...Joe
May 26, 2013
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Hi Gregory, I see that you are cowardly avoiding my question wrt the age of the earth.Joe
May 26, 2013
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Great point, Sal. I am about thirty years old now and I have heard lots of people my age intimate they would probably take creationism more seriously if their material wasn't written for third graders. Plus old-school creationists have the annoying habit of constantly quoting the Bible and spending large portions of their time/space expounding upon it when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm grateful to the ID movement for its influence on creationism.tragic mishap
May 26, 2013
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Gregory, if you are going to,,, Argument Ad Hominem? (William Lane Craig) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX3beh6g1Qg ,,Perhaps it would do you well to have at least your first sentence correct in your character attack? "YECs like BA77" I'm not, nor have ever been a YEC. I believe God created the universe approximately,,, Direct Measurements Place Universe's Age at 13.79 Billion Years - May 2013 http://www.reasons.org/podcasts/science-news-flash/direct-measurements-place-universe-s-age-at-13.79-billion-years The Megamaser Cosmology Project. V. An Angular Diameter Distance to NGC 6264 at 140 Mpc; http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.7273 But since we are on the subject, Who or what do you think created the universe and what is your scientific evidence for it?bornagain77
May 26, 2013
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There is no need to dignify the so-called 'scientific' claims of YECs like BA77. He'll likely spew a few long posts with 5 or more links believing as an evangelical apologist that he is somehow convincing people to stop rejecting IDism. But he is convincing no one and making a fool of himself and IDism cum neo-creationism in the process. Priests should be (and likely are, if they know about it) ashamed if BA77 quotes their words in the advocacy of his fanatical IDist scientism! But as an apostle of the 'church of no-denomination,' BA77 will likely not be disuaded. He will feel persecuted instead of being shown to be ignorant. "Theology in Darwinian reasoning"? Go fish. Darwin was not a 'theist,' though he is buried in Westminster Abbey. Honestly, there are people who contribute at UD that are caricatures of real human beings. It is a very sad thing from a global perspective (i.e. forgetting American ignorances). Actual human beings, including Abrahamic believers that I interact with would be ashamed to call such introverted American propagandists as 'intelligent.' That would only serve to lower the meaning of humanity and life in a knowledge society. Go back to the caves, YECs, neo-creationists! Read your Bibles there by fire-light, even before the use of candles. You do not deserve credibility in front of the vast majority of Abrahamic believers today.Gregory
May 26, 2013
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On a more serious note, surely, apart from the interest of scientists employed to study the tangible, in the here and now, with time now divested of that classical underpinning, the only 'time' that is of consequence in the quantum word, is the eternal 'time' addressed by Phil, in one of his recent discursions. It's all in the mind. Excuse me a moment. There are some burly looking characters in white coats at the door.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Do you think it would make me sound more kind of 'intellectual', if I'd said, 'Auto-Creationists, Gregoire?Axel
May 26, 2013
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Ah, Gregoire... I am deezappointed in you...You're not supposed to respond to groundlings comme moi. You said so yourself! But you, Self-Creationists, just wait till that 'promissory note' is cashed! Boy! Are there going to be some red faces among the IDists and UDers here! You'll have have them on the run for sure.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Gregory, I'm so glad that a person, such as yourself, of such highly exalted esteem for his own intellect has humbled himself to such a point as to willingly grovel in the knowledge garbage pit of UD, so as to hopefully redeem us from our own ignorance. (even though you swore you would never grace us with your exalted wisdom again) How mighty virtuous of you sir. If we could only fully appreciate what a sacrifice this is for you.,,, With such awesome intellectual power at the mercy of your slightest whim, I was hoping if you apply your massive intellectual brawn to the question I asked the other day. Namely, since you are so concerned to keep theology completely out of science (which is impossible to do by the way!), why are you not equally concerned of the blatant use of Theology in Darwinian reasoning as you are of its use in ID reasoning? https://uncommondescent.com/news/new-intelligent-design-curriculum-discovering-intelligent-design/#comment-455605 I know you probably think it beneath your dignity to have to actually address this concern, but if you could bless those of us who may not be nearly as impressed with your intellect as you are impressed with your intellect with an answer I would appreciate it.bornagain77
May 26, 2013
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@#13 Yes, I am 'Gregoire' to French-native speakers. ;) But there are likely *none* of those at UD, are there? Are there?? So why does 'Axel' the American persist in his attempted dual-language sophistication? To show he's a good communicator?! :( It is highly like he has no more than a high school degree, or perhaps a bachelor's degree in an unrelated field (just like Phil) to the main themes involved in 'IDism,' which he nevertheless ideologically defends. Yes, I know in a way that you don't, Axel. Why, because I've studied IDism carefully and you haven't (or just on internet blogs and a few IDist texts!). Your mistake is now post-facto corrected. No harm done. If there is any time, my response to Salvador will follow. But for now, it is easy to respond to 'numbskull'-IDists such as 'Axel.' Expelled Syndrome is obviously in full effect. Quarantine your children!Gregory
May 26, 2013
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@ your #3, Phil, do NOT order Greg to answer specific points, you raise. It is now called, 'stalking'.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Gregoire, My second word, 'you', in my #12, should read, 'you know'. My profusest apologies.Axel
May 26, 2013
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'....if really ‘dispassionate,’ why so many exclamation marks (!!!) from master Cordova?' Well, you, Greg, I know it's a very fine distinction, but one may be wholly dispassionate in one reasoning, yet resort to emphasis, in an endeavour to get through to numbskulls.Axel
May 26, 2013
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Joe @10 The funny thing is that they do teach human evolution in AP world history classes in high school. Looks like they are following your advice.sixthbook
May 25, 2013
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And their historical narrative belongs in the "History of Life According to Darwin" class and not the science class. Or better yet, the "histories of life according to different cultures", class. History-> history classroom. Science-> science classroomJoe
May 25, 2013
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Joe @7,
"What this generation of debaters must do is make it clear that darwin created and argued against a starwman in the fixity of species. IOW make it clear that “evolution” isn’t being debated and make it clear exactly what is being debated."
I think those are good points. ID challenges the Darwinian mechanism (or lack thereof) and not a historical narrative.Chance Ratcliff
May 25, 2013
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