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ID’s influence on the next generation Creation/Evolution debate

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There is the common fallacy that ID was created to sneak creationism into public high schools. Actually, one could make the case that ID was created to sneak “creationism” into universities. 🙂

ID literature is more sophisticated than creation science literature, perhaps because it is (except for Of Pandas and People) usually directed more toward a university audience

Eugenie Scott
Eugenie Scott defeats Ed Brayton

and

I feel that the essential argument has to be carried on at the higher level, at the university level, and it’s interesting you see that the people that come from the NCSE side are always trying to say this is just an issue in the high schools

Phil Johnson

The link below is a video of a debate was between 3 Darwinists vs. 3 Creationist students of science. The Creationists relied heavily on ID materials and rarely appealed to theology or philosophy, they just kept pounding facts and mathematics and information theory and cybernetics.

The debate was, in some dimension, quite boring as what you’d expect from a dispassionate scientific inquiry. But that was also its strength. The Creationists appeared termperate, knowledgeable, and intelligent. A good fraction of their arguments came from ID literature, not from creation science literature or theology.

There was Raquel Murray, a Master of Science student in Modeling and Computational Science, with a BS in physics with math minor! Her proficiency in understanding biochemistry was amazing. Although her delivery was nervous and stuttering, her points were unassailable. She drew heavily, not on the Bible, but the work of atheist biologist Jack Trevors! Talk about a subtle and sophisticated line of argument! She made reference to the inability of any future discovery of physical law to thwart claims for the intelligent origin of information (the paradoxical fact that physics makes high levels of information possible but also simultaneously improbable, ala Shannon).

At best for the evolutionists, the debate was a draw, and the evolutionists had to rely on some fabricated “facts” (howlers such as the claim genetic code is created via thermodynamics, a total misinterpretation of this paper). If this is representative of the next generation in the Creation/Evolution debate at the university level, the creationists will fare very well. ID’s influence (which is not Bible based) is evident in its effect on biblical creationists. I didn’t watch the whole debate, but focused on the origin-of-life part of the debate and the origin-of-information part of the debate. The creationists were quite sophisticated in not making appeals to the authority of the Bible. They pounded the facts, math, information theory and cybernetics. God made the facts of nature, and He expects us to use those facts.

The way they argued reminded me of Phil Johnson’s admonition in dealing with Darwinists:

Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate

The creationist students, for the most part, did exactly that. Here is the video:

Creation vs. Evolution University Debate

NOTES:
Christ said in John 10:38

though you do not believe me, believe the works

Comments
The most accurate characterization of Phil Johnson's journey is from himself. See: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=15-05-037-i Some excerpts:
PJ: I wanted to know whether the fundamentals of the Christian worldview were fact or fantasy. Darwinism is a logical place to begin because, if Darwinism is true, Christian metaphysics is fantasy. .... I got the opportunity when I was on a sabbatical in London in 1987 or 1988 to read more about Darwinism. It was immensely interesting to discover that it’s all circular reasoning, deception, and pseudo-science. I had suspected that, but I saw that it was really true. It is a pseudo-science... The first book I read while on sabbatical was Dawkins’s Blind Watchmaker, which seemed fairly convincing on the first reading but full of holes on the second. Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis did much to alert me to the issues. But perhaps the greatest “Aha!” moment came when I was browsing in a bookstore in London with my wife. Kathie had been a bit skeptical of my developing interest in evolution. (I sometimes get in a little over my head.) She picked up a copy of Isaac Asimov’s Guide to Science—900 pages of pretty good popular science writing—looked up evolution, and there was a brief description of the theory, plus three pages of heavy-handed ad hominem denunciation of creationists for not accepting the absolute truth of this theory that was so obvious to all thinking persons. Then there was a brief section called “Proof of Evolution,” in which the entire proof—all the proof that Asimov thought was necessary—was the peppered moth experiment. .... The ignorance that’s involved, the indifference to the facts, is stunning. Anything that promotes the “Great Darwin” and the materialist understanding is uncritically received, unless it does something that’s politically incorrect. In short, my discovery that the reasoning in Darwinism is unscientific, illogical, and dishonest was tremendously important to me because it validates that “In the beginning was the Word” is really the correct starting point. .... I then got to know the people from the mainstream community and the creationist world who are critical of Darwinism. What I brought to the dissident movement—Nancy Pearcey has pointed this out—was a sense of strategy. People were caught in a rationalist mentality. They were thinking, “If we present facts and evidence, Stephen J. Gould will say, ‘Oh yes, you’re right and I’m wrong,’” and then the scientists would let them in. Well, I understand a little bit better how that world works, and I thought of it like a political campaign or big case litigation. So the question is: “How to win?” That’s when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the “wedge” strategy: “Stick with the most important thing”—the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate
scordova
May 25, 2013
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What this generation of debaters must do is make it clear that darwin created and argued against a starwman in the fixity of species. IOW make it clear that "evolution" isn't being debated and make it clear exactly what is being debated.Joe
May 25, 2013
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Gregory, Do you think it is necessary to know soemthing about HOW the Earth was formed in order to make any determination about how old it is?Joe
May 25, 2013
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From Eugenie Scott:
INTELLIGENT DESIGN In 1989, shortly after the Edwards Supreme Court decision, Of Pandas and People, a supplemental textbook for high school biology, was published (Davis and Kenyon 1989). Its publication signified the increasing OEC [old earth creationist] influence in the neocreationist antievolution movement, and introduced the term Intelligent Design (ID). ID is promoted primarily by university-based antievolutionists who tend to be PCs [progressive creationists] rather than YECs. Dean Kenyon, for example, a tenured professor of biology at San Francisco State University, and Percival Davis, who teaches at a public college, Hillsborough Community College, in Tampa, Florida, advocate ID. ID is a lineal descendent of William Paley’s Argument from Design (Paley 1803,)…. ID literature is more sophisticated than creation science literature, perhaps because it is (except for Of Pandas and People) usually directed more toward a university audience... Antievolution at the University One of the leading exponents of ID is a University of California law professor, Phillip Johnson, who holds an endowed chair at Boalt Hall School of Law, University of California, Berkeley. Johnson appeared on the antievolutionist scene in 1991 with the publication of his book, Darwin on Trial (Johnson 1993). Because of Johnson’s academic credentials, and because he ignored arguments about the age of the earth and was even faintly contemptuous of YEC,…. Although Johnson is an evolution basher, his main concern is not really with whether scientific data do or do not support evolution, but with broader questions of purpose and meaning. …. In the mid to late 1990s, university-based antievolutionism is a small but growing movement. For now, participants are dwarfed in both number and effectiveness by the more public efforts of organizations like the ICR, with its Back to Genesis road shows and media programs. YEC is still the most frequently-encountered antievolutionism that K-12 teachers have to cope with, but more and more it is being augmented by “arguments against evolution,” ID or other neocreationist positions. However, because a university-based antievolution movement has great potential to reach future decision-makers (who are being educated in universities today), this component of the movement may be highly influential in the future, even if it is small today. Future generations of college graduates may think that books like those of Johnson or Behe represent modern scientific scholarship on science and evolution. Eugenie Scott, 1997
That video is symbolic of what Eugenie said 16 years ago, the future generation of college science students have been influenced by ID. My point is, even creationist college students have been influenced by ID, and it is evident in the way they held their ground against their science peers in debate.scordova
May 25, 2013
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it is a usual tactic of ‘creationists’ to try to be ‘nuanced’ and to hide their religiously-motivated anti-science ideology in public.
You are still spewing the same garbage that creationists are anti-science. The only reason I'm willing to volunteer some answer is for the sake of the readers.
Do you have a personal opinion about the age of the earth? Do you think it is a few thousand years old, say 6000, 10000 or 50000, or that it is several millions of years old? Or have you reverted to the position: “I don’t know”?
It could be young, it is worth demonstrating, but the facts aren't yet cooperating. That may change with better telescopes, space probes, experiments. I think YEC could be true, it would desirable for it to be true, but I'm not defending it vigorously because YECs don't a have very defensible case until they solve distant starlight and radiometric dating. It is worth purusing as a question, because even if wrong, any question that generates empirical research is valuable. I self-identify as YEC, but I have doubts, serious doubts. I suspect its true, I hope it is true, but I'm not convinced it has a defensible case. I'm for vigorous inquiry into the question, but that's not the same as vigorously asserting it is true. ID is another story. :-)
. ‘creationism’ and “get the Bible out of the debate” are incompatible, they are contradictory
No they are not. If someone doesn't believe in ID, give them the facts and they might believe. How do you think the father of the Wedge Phil Johnson became a Christian? Reading Michael Denton's book first, then the Bible! Michael Behe rejected Darwinism after reading Denton's book. And John Sanford accepted ID after reading Behe's book. Denton's book also converted an atheist who became a UD author by the name of Gil Dodgen. So quid pro-quo, Gregory, have your read Denton's book and do you understand it? You want to see what really got the leaders of ID to accept ID, read Denton's book. Denton is an agnostic. If you don't understand why Denton's book could inspire the movement, you'll never understand what makes ID tick. You'll only be able, as you have for 9 years, fallaciously frame the ID motivation in terms of fact-free religion instead of fact-supported theory that may support some people's religious beliefs. So what if religion is a motivation for promoting facts. The motivations don't invalidate the facts. The facts are on the side of ID, not Darwin. The enthusiasm is there because Darwinism is dying from the facts. Here is the facts from a top Darwinist:
In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics Jerry Coyne
scordova
May 25, 2013
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Gregory, I noticed that you did not address my question I posed to you the other day in regards to the blatant use of Theology in Darwinian reasoning. Could you, since you are so concerned to keep theology completely out of science (which is impossible to do!), please address this outstanding theological/scientific concern so as to not appear as a unfair hypocrite? https://uncommondescent.com/news/new-intelligent-design-curriculum-discovering-intelligent-design/#comment-455605bornagain77
May 25, 2013
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‘creationism’ and “get the Bible out of the debate” are incompatible, they are contradictory. Creationism *is* inevitably a Bible-in conversation (like BA 77 and several others demonstrate here regularly).
Fortunately, ID isn't creationism, so it is perfectly reasonable to leave the Bible out of the debate, as Johnson counselled.Eric Anderson
May 25, 2013
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Though asking direct, specific questions is sometimes mistakingly called 'stalking' by IDist-Creationists, I wonder if Salvador would answer a simple question. Do you have a personal opinion about the age of the earth? Do you think it is a few thousand years old, say 6000, 10000 or 50000, or that it is several millions of years old? Or have you reverted to the position: "I don't know"? I ask this because, as is common among people that realise most sane, intelligent, educated people won't believe them, it is a usual tactic of 'creationists' to try to be 'nuanced' and to hide their religiously-motivated anti-science ideology in public. For example, Salvador wrote:
One may wonder how I can be sympathetic to Young Earth Creation given what I learned in these classes. It would be fair to say what I learned in these classes casts enormous doubt on the viability of the Young Earth Creation model, and at some point one must be willing to accept irresolution or even error in what one believes.
What does that actually mean? He can be or he is? He is a young earth creationist or he isn't? These things are obscured by his 'enormous doubt' talk. Is Salvador able to come out clearly and say he is *still* a young earth creationist or not? Sure, IDism is tarnished by its association with YECism, while at the same time it depends upon much of its financing from YECs. It is no wonder the vast majority of non-YECists, i.e. most living, breathing human beings reject IDism as politically-religiously motivated. From the many educated scholars and scientists I have spoken with and interviewed, IDism is indeed something like "the da Vinci Code" of biology. But hey, Salvador's applied physics degree is probably just perfectly positioned to continue to apologise for IDism to supposedly on-side leaning Christian evangelical students in America. The question is: will he be promoting YECism to American youth while he promtes IDism or not? p.s. 'creationism' and "get the Bible out of the debate" are incompatible, they are contradictory. Creationism *is* inevitably a Bible-in conversation (like BA 77 and several others demonstrate here regularly). p.p.s. if really 'dispassionate,' why so many exclamation marks (!!!) from master Cordova? p.p.p.s. "one could make the case that ID was created to sneak “creationism” into universities." Yeah, exactly ;)Gregory
May 25, 2013
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