Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

New Kansas Science Standards Redefine “Science”

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Go here and you’ll be able to download a “Comparison Document” that shows how the new Kansas Science Standards deviate from the old. The change that particularly struck me was the following:

Old characterization of science: “scientific knowledge describes and explains the natural world.”

New characterization of science: “scientific knowledge describes and explains the physical world in terms of matter, energy, and forces.”

Besides defining intelligent design out of existence, this new definition defines what have traditionally been regarded as distinctly human traits, such as free will and consciousness, which science studies, also out of existence.

It’s all to the good that the scientific materialists have introduced this ideologically charged definition of science, perhaps not for the Kansas students who have this mischaracterization of science foisted on them, but for the broader purpose of hashing out just what is the nature of science and whether it should be defined reductionistically and materialistically.

Questions:

  • What is matter?
  • What is energy?
  • What are forces?
  • Why should we think these are adequate for scientific inquiry?

Materialistic answers to these questions are insupportable in the wider public square. Indeed, try to justify the “inalienable rights” ascribed in the Declaration of Independence not in terms of a creator but in terms of “material forces.” It doesn’t work.

As one colleague pointed out, like the Fugitive Slave Act, policies and laws like this point up the bad faith of those who implement them. The scientific materialists are overreaching themselves and setting themselves up for a fall.

Comments
To Tims- comment 54: I tried to pre-empt your response that I was caught in a lie but the post didn't show up. What I didn't realize was that the chimp becomes human page was part of "whyevolution.com as I have only visited that page. However I noticed you still did not- because you cannot, scientifically explain teh differences observed between chimps and humans. Are you now saying that chimps do not have an opposable big toe? As for this: Max Planck was brought up in a very religious home, look at his biography. He wrote papers on religion way before quantum theory. Try again. That has nothing to do with anything. PLanck's quote was borne from YEARS of SCIENTIFIC research. IOW YOU need to "try again".Joseph
February 16, 2007
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Oops, the software mangled my comment. That is supposed to be "Scienceâ„¢" at the beginning of the third paragraph.sagebrush gardener
February 16, 2007
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scientific knowledge describes and explains the physical world in terms of matter, energy, and forces That’s physics. One particular branch of science. Like duh.
Yes, but doesn't this narrow, exclusive definition limit our thinking to the physics of our grandfathers? the physics of steam engines? I believe that information (λόγος) will be found to be as fundamental and essential to our understanding of matter as it already is to our understanding of the genome. Science&trade is desperately afraid of miracles, of "magic". But as Arthur C. Clarke famously said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." I believe that the so-called miracles that science so zealously guards the door against are evidence not of the rules being broken, but of a higher understanding of the rules. Our scientists today are like primitive islanders who are only capable of thinking in terms of palm fronds and coconut shells. A flashlight, an iPod, a digital camera are all "magic" (and possibly evil) to these primitive folk because they cannot be explained by their limited understanding of nature. The blinders are starting to come off and must continue to do so. It is almost amusing to watch Science drawing ever closer to God while at the same time struggling desperately to avoid seeing Him.sagebrush gardener
February 16, 2007
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So, Jack, is it your position that the search for and identification of designing intelligence in biology is a legitimate scientific undertaking (as long as one does not assume a priori that the designing intelligence is 'immaterial')?Eric Anderson
February 15, 2007
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Michaels7, you've made some excellent points, and the one in particular that really stands out for me is this: "Talk about low expectations. This is the problem today with public education." This is exactly right. Jack et. al. have stated time and time again that our students are just not ready to learn more about these issues. I agree with you that we have extremely low expectations for our students. My personal belief is that my two boys (4th & 6th grade) could handle learning much more than what they are taught at their public school here in Kansas. Both my brother and sister send their children to private schools, and it certainly appears to me that more is expected of students in the private school setting. I hope I'm wrong and haven't made a huge error in choosing to send my children to public school, but this complete disregard for urging our students to critically assess our current knowledge of science is discouraging. I do know that if I had been exposed to these debate issues during school, I'd have been completely enthralled with the subject of science instead of being bored to tears by it.Forthekids
February 15, 2007
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Jack Krebs Science is not everything. Questions about free will, consciousness, the source of the nature of the universe, etc. are very important issues, but they extend beyond the scope of what science can study "But, don't you see," said I, "that science never could show anything of the sort?" "Why on earth not?" "Because science studies Nature. And the question is whether anything besides Nature exists -- anything 'outside.' How could you find that out by studying simply Nature?" "But don't we find out that Nature must work in an absolutely fixed way? I mean, the Laws of Nature tell us not merely how things do happen, but how they must happen. No power could possibly alter them." "How do you mean?" said I. "Look here," said he. "Could this 'something outside' that you talk about make two and two five?" "Well, no," said I. "All right," said he. "Well, I think the Laws of Nature are really like two and two making four. The idea of their being altered is as absurd as the idea of altering the laws of arithmetic." "Half a moment," said I. "Suppose you put sixpence into a drawer today, and sixpence into the same drawer tomorrow. Do the laws of arithmetic make it certain you'll find a shilling's worth there the day after?" "Of course," said he, "provided no one's been tampering with your drawer." "Ah, but that's the whole point," said I. "The laws of arithmetic can tell you what you'll find, with absolute certainty, provided that there's no interference. If a thief has been at the drawer of course you'll get a different result. But the thief won't have broken the laws of arithmetic -- only the laws of England. Now, aren't the Laws of Nature much in the same boat? Don't they all tell you what will happen provided there's no interference?" "How do you mean?" "Well, the laws will tell you how a billiard ball will travel on a smooth surface if you hit it in a particular way -- but only provided no one interferes. If, after it's already in motion, someone snatches up a cue and gives it a biff on one side -- why, then, you won't get what the scientist predicted." "No, of course not. He can't allow for monkey tricks like that." "Quite, and in the same way, if there was anything outside Nature, and if it interfered -- then the events which the scientist expected wouldn't follow. That would be what we call a miracle. In one sense it wouldn't break the laws of Nature. The laws tell you what will happen if nothing interferes. They can't tell you whether something is going to interfere. I mean, it's not the expert at arithmetic who can tell you how likely someone is to interfere with the pennies in my drawer; a detective would be more use. It isn't the physicist who can tell you how likely I am to catch up a cue and spoil his experiment with the billiard ball; you'd better ask a psychologist. And it isn't the scientist who can tell you how likely Nature is to be interfered with from outside. You must go to the metaphysician." ~ C.S. Lewis How shall we define 'the scope of what science can study'? If there are disagreements on this, how should these disagreements be handled?bevets
February 15, 2007
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In response to the questions "what is energy, what is matter, what are the forces?", an honest reply is human beings truly don't know. However, both the Holographic paradigm, employing quantum mechanics, or the electrical paradigm, employing the electrical force, view the universe as an interconnected unity, and not "material" in the sense of conventional "science"; but neither can really respond to those questions sufficiently, I think.J. Parker
February 15, 2007
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I want to expand on my thoughts in my above post. First, Jack, my apologies if I came off huffy, but it truly is making me frustrated to listen to this type of drivel for over 40 years now pouring into our schools. I grew up with these low expectations in public schools. Because I did not enjoy open discussions or critical debate on such issues, all my views were indoctrinated by the school. You are simply continuing this charade Jack and I mean that in the nicest way I know how to say it. It is a complete fabricated charade that students from at least 9th grade up cannot talk about these issues and in fact benefit from complex discourse. By limiting the discussion to your preconceived notions of what is real science Jack, you are forcing your ideas onto hundreds of thousands of students. The difference is today students have the internet and much larger alternative education than the limited vista of public schools. If I had attended church, I might have received some skeptical knowledge of critics regarding evolution. But I did not. Therefore I believed without question the indoctrinated stances of materialist science that are now failing today. By limiting criticism of evolution to churches Jack, you have slowed down science, not elevated it. And I say this comeing from an evolutionary belief and materialistic background. I have changed my mind now. But the truth is had I been allowed to hear critical commentary on Darwin's Tree, RM&NS, etc., I would have been much better prepared for the truth. That scientist do not have a clue about the information within our genomes, about how life arrived on our planet, or indeed our universe. Now why is that so hard to admit in public schools? Your standards commit to indoctrination, not open enlightment of competing views on a subject that is rife with real world problems. In math, we know 2+2=4. But in Biology today, leading scientist cannot make up their minds on how we got here, how we "evolved" and how the very basic clues to life began. As evidence I offer the following OOL reflections as reported in Scientific American and recorded by CreationSafaris.com, as OOL on the Rocks: http://creationsafaris.com/crev200702.htm#20070215a What you'll find Jack is critical debate over past failed Miller and RNA world hypothesis. These are the same failed Miller-Urey experiments highly touted in my old school books as evidence for evolution Jack. What we know now is these experiments are completely bogus for evidence of evolution. Yet you would allow this evidence into scientific curriculum merely because it was "materialistic." I find it amazing that our children can see this online, talk about it, see ID online and talk about it, but you will only allow the former to be discussed. Universities are developing large networkings of inter-disciplenary relationships among Computer Information Scientist, Chemistry, Biology, Phyicics, Math, Engineers of all kinds to break the CODE of Life, but you will refuse to acknowledge possible Design explanations by legitimate scientist critical of a materialist only philosopy. One that is now being reported as failing in major scientific publications. Our children are learning faster than you Jack. More information on the internet than you allow them in school. By artificially limiting debate on these topics, I put forth, that upwards to half of the students lose interest. Sure, they'll do the work, pass the class. But they won't believe the forced worldviews that you expect them to be slaves to. This is a form of mental slavery Jack. Why? Because you refuse to deal with reality in the scientific world today and the students bypass your antiquated worldview. Information is speeding past these type of centralized dogmatic standards. The reason our nation succeeds is due to open access of information and free, open discussion on new information. Yet you do not allow free flow of legitimate information in our schools. You would stifle all meaningful advancements and ideas in science because of some false standard that is now shown to fail multiple times in the last 150 years since Darwin. Please note that I am not a Creationist. But what is so extremely infuriating is that materialist are now edging closer and closer to Creationist views on many issues of critical commentary. Yet you would rule out these criticisms from the past from reflecting on progress and being important milestones that have in fact proven one internal dogma does not work and slowed progress. And I'd add to that wasted Millions of Dollars on speculative Darwin's tree fallacy. It would have been just as worthy to spend millions on investigating a Creationist viewpoint of many kinds of biodiversity, or what materialist scientist are now calling "Pattern Pluralism." Whatever you want to call it, Creationist scientific viewpoints without the inclusion of Biblical input are now closer to scientific standards than past Darwinian hypotheses. This is staggering news! If PNAS is now accepting scientific dissention of Darwin's failed tree of life in favor of "Pattern Pluralism", then its good enough for our schools. And in fairness, this is long what Creationist predicted as skeptics of Darwin. But based upon some "materialist" only principle would not allow these facts to be known in school? That Creationist predicted it? I'm curious to know your answer. Along with Piltdown man, Nebraska man, now the RNA world falling in OOL, Darwin's Tree Faling, Schwartz recent lambasting of evolutionary history to explain even the simplest beginnings of modern organisms. I'm sorry Jack, but children are much, much smarter than this nowadays and to cut off and stiffle such debates has the unintended consequence of cutting off their bright minds. This is exactly what happend to me in public education. I was told that we were purposeless beings, here by accident and I was lied to about the information of assumptions in textbooks. Information that is now invalid, falsified, and dogmatically asserted as fact in the past. Why should I trust you Jack? This needs to stop and our children need to hear the truth. The worlds greatest minds don't have a clue of how we got here, how information has arisen on this planet, let alone from any other source. It is dishonest, disengenuous and outright lies to state otherwise or to limit debate about these issues. Our scientific textbooks should reflect these truths. They also should allow for serious discussion and criticism from qualified scientist. To not do so is to deny what our children are already learning today outside of the classroom and to allow a different religion inside the classroom - dogmatic materialism. I find it amazing that children can only handle - "one truth" - purposeless, unguided, senseless meaningless scientific accidental reasoning - HUH? OK, sorry if I went a little long. Seriously, open up the schools. Allow debate and serious criticisms to be made by legitimate scientist. These views do not confuse students about operational genetics or scientific reasoning. They enhance and open their minds to well balanced views that are already being discussed in the real world. To keep denying these truths, is what confuses our children.Michaels7
February 15, 2007
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"That’s a heck of an idea. One who understands that truth can be found and that there is a purpose to this world will much more likely be a better scientist than one who thinks all is relative and everything is by chance." Well that is part of it. It would just be worthwhile to explain to the kids the difference between scientific realism and scientific anti-realism (and of course anti-scientific anti-realism, like Kuhn's) and how the standard is assuming anti-realism based on the claim that it makes. I don't really think this is a particularly difficult concept, certianly I reckon teenagers could follow it easily enough.Jason Rennie
February 15, 2007
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Jack, thanks for your clarification. In response to my question as to whether you think archaeology, forensic science and SETI are scientific, you suggest that they are scientific, and state: "But in all three cases one is looking for material causes - people or some type of physical alien being. I know this answer brings up all sorts of issues, but nonetheless the causes being sought in those three cases all do have a material existence." I understand that it is therefore your position that the search for and identification of designing intelligence in biology is a legitimate scientific undertaking (as long as one does not assume a priori an immaterial source). Let me know if I have not correctly stated your position.Eric Anderson
February 15, 2007
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but the other one is that the parents and churches in Kansas could host speakers and run seminars for their kids (perhaps as part of an advanced sunday school class ? I don’t know enough of the details) on the philosophy and history of science. That's a heck of an idea. One who understands that truth can be found and that there is a purpose to this world will much more likely be a better scientist than one who thinks all is relative and everything is by chance.tribune7
February 15, 2007
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Actually there might be a pretty simple solution to the problems with the science standards and the lack of faith in the kids that Jack demonstrates. I guess homeschooling would be one option, but the other one is that the parents and churches in Kansas could host speakers and run seminars for their kids (perhaps as part of an advanced sunday school class ? I don't know enough of the details) on the philosophy and history of science. Teach the whole thing fairly and honestly, look at both sides and so on. What have people to fear from a properly rounded education ?Jason Rennie
February 15, 2007
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Jason said, "Given Jack’s low regard it seems for the ability of students, how exactly does he expect them to figure this out for themselves?" Exactly! Talk about low expectations. This is the problem today with public education. Jack does not want theme to figure it out Jason and that is the problem. He wants to indoctrinate them. Jack Krebs, sorry, but your wrong. You expect to little of our schools and our children. This is indoctrination plain and simple. And it sets the bar extremely low for inquisitive and curious minds who demand more in class. Our kids get bored with this muck, lame drivel. I'm sick and tired of this garbage. Children up thru K-12 can and should be allowed to explore their thoughts on diverse issues of philosophy, materialism, religion, ID, etc. They should be encouraged to delve into these real life issues. It is unjust for schools to only address one side of these issues in science, philosophy and the underpinnings of the motives of scientist. By narrowly insisting our children be enlisted into your idea of limited education, you are darkening the minds of youth, not enlightening them. You refuse to address all the real issues because you have nothing to stand on. This is proven by your narrow definitions. You cannot explain information in DNA. The worlds greatest scientist cannot explain this, yet you would limit debate and discussion on these very issues that the real world debates and discusses every single day. Why is it children can only handle athiestic explanations and not reasonable discussions of possible Design, SETI, Panspermia, God? Darwin's tree of life is falling as reported in PNAS. Major statements by Schwartz and many others are now stating the old Darwinian paradigms have failed to tell us anything, yet you will insist that they learn of historic fallacies taught on assumptions that are not held up in the real world of science today. And in fact are falling apart. You only neglect the education of our children, inhibit their liberties and keep them at remedial levels of discourse. They then are led into secular university systems that are slanted towards the same type of drivel. Due to such arrogance our nations public schools continue to suffer. Inhibiting debate on narrowly defined views weakens minds. So much for "liberal" ideology. Some of the worlds greatest scientist admit they are confounded by origins issues and life. NDE, RM&NS has failed. Dr. Alan MacNeil admitted it here on this forum. You yourself admitted that genetics does not require evolutionary dogma. Dr. Sanford is a wonderful example of a former evolutionist who was transformed by the evidence of genetics to the view of Design. Yet you would limit this view because why Jack? Because Design cannot be proven? Well, guess what, neither can origins and evolution on this earth solely be proven without input from other life forms off of this planet. Yet the textbooks will define evolution as being true. You insist upon misleading children and restraining debate instead of allowing science classes to be opened up to the larger debate now taking place. The internet overwhelms your soviet-style centralized dogma. The schools should definitely have open philosophical classes which include these issues. Our children can certainly handle introduction classes of philosophy if they can handle Physics! Geesh, what garbage! Low expectations... now, now children, you can only learn materialist dogma. Be good children, ignore reality around you. The scientific standards you set are not real world. They do not take into account Information of Biological Systems, DNA CODE, Self-organizing organisms and the true debates happening in science. Its a complete failure of reality and an injustice to our children, their parents tax dollars and this nation's future. Are you aware of the Origins of Life Million Dollar Prize Jack? The Judges acknowledge both Dembski and Behe's arguments in their qualifications for "determining" a materialist only origins. These are world leading scientist. Yet you would not allow this information into our classrooms? The debate? The open discussoin for young growing minds to be inspired by leading scientist around the world on issues of opposing sides? You cannot sharpen minds with dull, mind-numbing indoctrination. You sharpen minds by critical commentary on both sides and open, free debate. It is outrageous in our country of "Freedom" that this is not allowed to our students. We are teaching our students not to trust the Constitution, the pillars of a Free Society, and instead teaching our children that Soviet style indoctrination is better than freedom of ideas. If we cannot allow freedom of ideas in schools, then how can we allow it in our society? Doing this all while evolutions pillars are falling down. I think all students in high schools around the nation should challenge people like Jack Krebs, our "skilled" science teachers to take the Null Hypotheses challenge by Trevors and Abel! http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1208958 "Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information" The day Jack Krebs and his supporters of materialist dogmatic science can successfully challenge these simple factors of FSC, then you can insist on materialism only in the classroom. But the truth is, our scientist cannot touch it. They cannot resolve it and they never will. Because it is open to infinite regression of life begets life. And that information and self-organization does not exist without intelligent design. Your standards mislead science students Jack. I'm sorry, but your insistance upon antiquated ideas is truly exasperating to the fast changing ways of our world during the information revolution. By cutting out all debate, you hold back great curiosity and stifle childrens minds. This is a fact. We don't have private schools simply for money. We have them because the people who have made it in life realized how simple minded and limiting our public schools fail bright young minds.Michaels7
February 15, 2007
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Jack: Is the Big Bang theory part of science?JGuy
February 15, 2007
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Jack Krebs ... you said: "The standards do not say that life is “physics only.” The standards say that science studies the part that is “physic only.” Science does not study the “art” of being a human: values, morals, religious and philosophical beliefs are all subjects beyond the scope of science." Then by your criteria of science you must - in order to be consistent - reject computer science (information is non material), psychology (mind is non material), archaeology (design inferences are non material), information science (information is non material), quantum physics (intelligence of any observer is non material), anthropology (imaginary lineages are non material), and evolutionary biology (it REQUIRES imagination & fairy tales with zero basis in reality & therefore non material).JGuy
February 15, 2007
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Jack, Thanks for the response. I appreciate the fact that you participate in these forums. I’m interested most in your comment that “Science is not everything. Questions about free will, consciousness, the source of the nature of the universe, etc. are very important issues, but they extend beyond the scope of what science can study...” No disagreement from me. What I take issue with however, is the scientific establishment’s failure to enforce it’s own standards on it’s own spokespersons. Consider, for example, Miller and Levine, who say: “Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless–a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, there was no divine plan to guide us.” (Biology: Discovering Life by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st ed., D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; (2nd ed.. D.C. Heath and Co., 1994), p. 161) Of the many claims made, the most interesting is their belief that science has actually ruled out the existence of the divine. Quite a bit broader than the definition you have proposed. It also seems that Miller and Levine are drawing conclusions that relate to “free will, consciousness, the source of the nature of the universe, etc.”—indeed, their conclusions are theological in nature (note that they—not me—claim that science has something to say about a ‘divine plan’). So, here’s the challenge for you: seems to me you can either: 1. Repudiate such non-scientific philosophizing when it comes from the likes of Miller, Levine, Sagan, Dawkins, Harris, Shermer, Coyne, Meyers, and many, many others, 2. Broaden your definition to allow such philosophizing (and when doing so, keep the playing field level); or 3. Admit that drawing these sorts of broad theological/philosophical conclusions in a science classroom or textbook is allowed—but only for those with the right ideological pedigree. Thanks again for posting. Looking forward to your reply, -sbSteveB
February 15, 2007
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"I agree with Jason Rennie for the most part." Thanks IB :D "If the pro-Darwin camp wants to define “science” by ignoring many of the greatest discoveries in the history of science, and simultaneously equivocate their view of science with epistemic nihilism, then by all means, let them have their cake and destroy their cake at the same time." Exactly. If you want to slip this potentially poisoned pill into the standard then it is critical that, in the interests of good science education that is not simply preindoctrination into atheism, the kids understand exactly what is being said. Given Jack's low regard it seems for the ability of students, how exactly does he expect them to figure this out for themselves ?Jason Rennie
February 15, 2007
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"No student is ever going to know this. Students think their teachers are explaining reality to them. That’s why some religious students have “epiphanies” when they “realize” that science debunks what they thought was real and true" You see why I think this approach to science needs to be made explicit and why kids should be taught some history and philosophy of science. Or at least take a lesson or two to explain what the implications of the anti-realist approach are. Unfortunately what you describe is why this is rightly described as preindoctrination into atheism. Sadly this is exactly the sort of confusion that needs to be avoided and which the standard as it is set out, without ensuring kids properly understand what is being said, is very likely to cause. I don't think it is at all unrealistic to expect kids to follow basic philosophy of science and history of science, and frankly there is probably a really large amount of PC rubbish in the course that could be jettisoned to make room for teaching the kids something useful. I don't see how introducing and failing to properly explain a potentially confusing definition of science does the kids any good at all. Unless the preindoctrination into atheism that is being denied, is what some people do have in mind after all. It concerns me that Jack, as someone putting the standard together, has such little faith in the kids.Jason Rennie
February 15, 2007
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Jack is spot on! Behe once said something to the effect that science is a rule-bounded game where we do our best to come up with naturalistic explanations for the things we can physically measure. He said it in the context of Sagan saying something of the effect that matter is all there is, was and will be. So, Sagan was saying there is nothing else but matter, and Behe was pointing out that there may be things that aren't matter, but science only conerns itself with the things we can measure. He also said he did not use the term "game" as a derogatory term, but actually as a compliment to what science is trying to do. And, to indicate that it has its limitations, and living within those limitations is a good thing. I think all Jack is saying is that science attempts to explain the things we can measure. Therefore, it has a built in limitation of the things we can't measure. Unfortunately, scientists have such a high view of themselves that they think like Sagan does - that is, if it falls out of the realm of science, it is worthless. I think we need to teach people to appreciate science for what it is, and recognize that other things in life are just as important as measurable science. It makes for better humans and better scientists :-)ajl
February 15, 2007
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Jack Krebs: I need to know about the physical nature of my body so I can take care of myself, But that can only be accomplished if one understands ones origins. IOW reality has demonstrated that it matters a great deal to our understanding whether or not that which is being investigated arose via intentional design or via nature, operating freely. Jack Krebs: So, I repeat: the Kansas science standards say what science is: the study of the physical world. ID is the study of the physical world:
Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the result of intelligence.--Wm Dembski
So the bottom line is anyone who supports the Kansas science standards and opposes ID is basically employing a double-standard. Thanks Jack.Joseph
February 15, 2007
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Jack, if ID explains an aspect of the physical how can that be considered something unaddressable by science? Or, if ID calls into question an existing explanation for the physical in a way that that the status quo can't answer how is that not science? Or would it indicate that the existing explanation was not science in the first place?tribune7
February 15, 2007
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it looks like there are a bizillion different definitions of "natural" going on in this thread.Fross
February 15, 2007
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Joseph, Now I just caught you in a lie. "BTW I never heard of whyevolution.com." https://uncommondescent.com/archives/1908 20 Joseph 12/29/2006 8:55 am To avocationist & JGuy, Chimps & Humans; explore the differences (weblink to http://www.whyevolution.com/chimps.html) That site makes claim for the opposable thumb on the feet of chimps and not of humans. Max Planck was brought up in a very religious home, look at his biography. He wrote papers on religion way before quantum theory. Try again. Some reality was presented today by CNN about the researchers below http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/02/14/kinship.reut/index.htmlTims
February 15, 2007
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One small point here during lunch: LeeBowman writes,
By sumarily stating life to be ‘physics only’ is as shallow as viewing a painting (art) as a collecion of oils, pigments and canvas (physics).
The standards do not say that life is "physics only." The standards say that science studies the part that is "physic only." Science does not study the "art" of being a human: values, morals, religious and philosophical beliefs are all subjects beyond the scope of science. Other disciplines study the art, and, as I have thoroughly agreed with Gil, the art of being human is generally the part that is most important to us as a human being. I need to know about the physical nature of my body so I can take care of myself, but the bigger question of what to do with my life and how to live it will not be - cannot be - addressed by any scientific study: I have to look elsewhere for that knowledge. So, I repeat: the Kansas science standards say what science is: the study of the physical world. They absolutely do not say that all knowledge can be found through science, or that everything that is important to people can be reduced to being the object of scientific study. They just don't say that. This is a simple and clear distinction, I think.Jack Krebs
February 15, 2007
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I agree with Jason Rennie for the most part. The new definition of science is one possible way to see it, but this new definition strips science of its history, richness, and epistemic fecundity by conflating science with materialism. One thing I notice is the use of the word "non-natural." This word should be defined, since many of the greatest scientific discoveries of all time have been made through "non-natural" views. Is mathematics "non-natural"? Things like serendipity, dreams, accidents, and even absent-mindedness have produced great science. Kekule's discovery of the structure of benzene is a supreme example, also Fleming's penicillin. How does the new definition acknowledge these very important realities of scientific practice? If the pro-Darwin camp wants to define "science" by ignoring many of the greatest discoveries in the history of science, and simultaneously equivocate their view of science with epistemic nihilism, then by all means, let them have their cake and destroy their cake at the same time.Inquisitive Brain
February 15, 2007
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Tims: Joseph, please consider the fact that Max Planck was a very religous man. He was religious because the scientific data gave him the reason to be so. Tims: Planck’s quote is an assumption and not stated as fact. Nope. Planck's quote was an inference gained after years of scientific research. Tims: Joseph, TOE can scientifically explain the physiological and anatomical differences observed between chimps and humans. Let's see it then. Ya see Tims I know that no one knows why chimps have an opposable big toe and humans do not. And no one knows why humans can walk upright and chimps cannot- that is no one knows what mutations or even if culled mutations can account for such things. And that doesn't even scratch the surface. Tims: As we discover more and more it becomes more and more evident. Reality demonstrates the more we know the wider the gap becomes. BTW I never heard of whyevolution.com. But I do know that not one evolutionist can substantiate the claim of Common Descent.Joseph
February 15, 2007
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Jack Krebs: Commenter asked you:“Did you write this definition with the intention to exclude ID as science?” Jack Krebs response: "No, this is the same definition that was in the 2000 standards, and it was written before the ID movement even started to be active in Kansas. " My question: Given it returned to what it was minus anything pro ID. Then, how can you honestly answer "No"?JGuy
February 15, 2007
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I have to agree that the major problem with this new definition of science has a major missing piece - information. Information is neither matter nor energy, nor is it a force. So they have just defined science itself out of existence. In this new handicapped version of science, they have in fact excluded all knowledge since knowledge is information awareness. Smells badly of materialism (and stupidity) - again. A more common term for Equus asinus comes to mind.Borne
February 15, 2007
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yea, this is a re-re-define. The ID friendly school board took out the "natural" limits of scientific inquiry back in 2005, and the most recent school board reverted the definition to the pre-ID version. http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11/08/evolution.debate.ap/Fross
February 15, 2007
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I'd love to have time to respond at length, but let me answer this last question: "Did you write this definition with the intention to exclude ID as science?" No, this is the same definition that was in the 2000 standards, and it was written before the ID movement even started to be active in Kansas.Jack Krebs
February 15, 2007
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