Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Reasonableness of God as World-root Being, the IS that grounds OUGHT and Cosmos-Architect

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The core challenge being addressed (as we respond to abuse of a critical thinking curriculum)  is the notion that belief in the reality of God is a culturally induced, poorly grounded commonplace notion. An easily dismissed cultural myth or prejudice, in short.

Let us remind ourselves of the curriculum content used by teachers in a district in Texas until protest led to removal of the focal question:

God_myth_sch_test

Fox26_God_myth_20pts

Having:

  • shown that such belief is deeply rooted in key, serious thought (also note vids 1: Kreeft, 2: Zacharias, 3: Craig, also 4: Stroebel on Jesus),
  • (exposing the flying spaghetti monster parody as strawman fallacy)
  • and noting (cf here in op and here as a comment)  how it underpins the moral fabric of governance for modern liberty and democracy by way of reference to the US DoI 1776 in context
  •  and having reminded one and all that lab coat clad evolutionary materialist scientism is self-referentially incoherent and so self-falsifying [as in, the shoe is on the other foot],

. . . we should now turn to the responsible reasonableness of ethical theism.

No, we are not here claiming certain proof of the reality of God that once dismissed can lead to an assumed atheistical default. Instead, ethical theism starts as a responsible worldview with substantial evidence and reasoning so that proper education will respect it as a serious option and will address the comparative difficulties challenge (cf. tip sheet) — factual adequacy, coherence (logical and dynamical) and explanatory adequacy — faced by all worldviews:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Just the opposite of the cynically dismissive one liner presented by the critical thinking curriculum, so called.

As a first point, we briefly reflect on modes of being and the significance of such for world-roots given functionally specific complex organisation, cosmological fine tuning and our patent staus as under moral governance as pointers.

First, an in-brief:

>>Our observed cosmos — the only actually, indisputably observed cosmos — is credibly contingent. That points beyond itself to adequate cause of a fine tuned cosmos set to a locally deeply isolated operating point for C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based terrestrial planet life. Life which BTW is based on coded information . . . language! right from the origin of cell based life . . . used in exquisitely intricate cybernetic systems that run the smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata with integral code using von Neumann kinematic self replicators we find in cells. That in the end through even multiverse speculations, points to necessary, intelligent, awesomely powerful being as source. Design by a creator beyond the cosmos. One intent on life like ours. Mix in moral government and we are at the inherent reasonableness of a creator capable of grounding ought. Just one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of our loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. No, we are not talking about poorly supported popular notions here, but of course, when the evolutionary materialist lab coat clad magisterium controls and censors what gets into the curricula they can make it seem that way.>>

Now, we can think of possible vs impossible beings (you, me, a unicorn vs a square circle). The latter cannot be in any possible world as the cluster of core requirements (a) squarishness and (b) circularity stand in mutual contradiction and cannot all be actualised in one and the same thing at once under the same circumstances.

The former, can exist in at least one possible world, whether or not they are actual in this world (the only generally observed actualised world).

Also, try to imagine a world in which the truth asserted in: 2 + 3 = 5 is false or was not so then came into being at some point or can cease to be so. No such world is possible, this proposition is a necessary though abstract being. That is, it is so anchored to the roots and framework for a world to be actualised that it will be so in any possible world:

|| + ||| –> |||||

(Where we can start with the set that collects nothing and compose the natural numbers etc, {} –>0, {0}–> 1, {0, 1} –> 2, etc.)

This allows us to understand that of possible beings some are contingent, some are necessary. Contingent beings will exist in some actualisable worlds but not in all such possible worlds. Necessary beings, by contrast are foundational to any actualisable world existing.

Contingent beings, then, depend on what I have termed external, on/off enabling causal factors (strictly, dynamically necessary causal factors), much like a fire depends for its beginning and sustained existence on heat, fuel, oxidiser and an un-interfered- with combustion chain reaction:

Fire_tetrahedronBy contrast, necessary beings do not have that sort of dynamical, causal dependence.

This has a major consequence, especially when we see that we live in a world that per the big bang and fine tuning considerations, is credibly contingent and in fact credibly finitely old, typically 13.7 or 13.8 BY being a conventional estimate:

The Big Bang timeline -- a world with a beginning
The Big Bang timeline — a world with a beginning

Typically the talk is of a singularity and perhaps a fluctuation. But the point is, finitely remote, changeable, composite, contingent. Caused, requiring a sufficient cluster of underlying dynamical antecedents/ factors that include at minimum all necessary factors.

But there is more.

For by contrast with being we can have non-being, a genuine nothing (and no a suggested quantum foam with fluctuations, etc, is not a genuine nothing, regardless of clever talking points).

vNSR
Illustrating a von Neumann, kinematic self replicator with integral universal computer

Non-being can have no causal capabilities, and so if there ever were a genuine nothing, such would forever obtain. That is, if a world now is (and a credibly contingent one) it points to something that always was, a necessary, independent, world-root being dynamically sufficient to account for the world that now is. A world with evident beginning at a finitely remote point, with evident fine tuning that sets its physics to a locally deeply isolated operating point that sets it up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium terrestrial planet, cell based life. Life, that is based on smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata that enfold an integral code using — language! communication and control systems! — von Neumann kinematic self replication facility. A class of machines we know how to conceptualise and initially analyse, but not at all how to design and implement. Worse, where we are conscious, intelligent, morally governed life forms in this cosmos that require a bridge between IS and OUGHT.

Already, we see that a very reasonable worldview stance would be that the cosmos comes from a necessary, highly intelligent, designing world root being who is a necessary being, and thus would be immaterial and intelligent, so minded. Even, through a multiverse speculation (which is spectacularly in violation of requisites of empirical substantiation and the multiplication of entities without clear necessity).

Moreover, as one scans the debates on worldviews foundations across the centuries, it is clear that there is just one credible place for there to be an IS that also grounds OUGHT in a reasonable way: the roots of reality.

There is just one serious candidate to be such a necessary being — flying spaghetti monsters et al (as we already saw) need not apply, they are patently contingent and are material — namely,

THE GOD OF ETHICAL THEISM: the inherently good and wise Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; one worthy of our loyalty and of the reasonable and responsible service of doing the good in accordance with our evident nature and circumstances.

That is, ethical theism is a reasonable, and intellectually viable worldview stance. It is also a descriptive term for the underlying worldview of the Judaeo-Christian Faith and theological tradition that is core to our civilisation and the foundation of that tradition, God. Where the God of Scripture says of himself c 1460 BC, I AM THAT I AM, i.e. necessary, eternal being, something not understood as to significance until many centuries later.

And in that context, it is the Christian tradition that this same God has come among us, as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ who fulfills the prophecies in that scriptural tradition and now sends forth his apostles and disciples into the world who are to be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves:

the_stone_of Daniels_vision

cornerstone-foundn_of_the_kingdomseven_mountains_fulness_vision

So, let us ponder Stroebel on Jesus:

[vimeo 17960119]

And, let us ponder Peter as he faced death by sentence of Kangaroo Court on a false accusation of treasonous arson against Rome, c 65 AD:

2 Peter 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[h] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty . . . .

19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In short, contrary to the false impression created by the authors of the curriculum in Texas, ethical theism in the Judaeo-Christian tradition is a reasonable faith and worldview stance, one to be treated with respect rather than their patent disdain.

And, of course, this post is open for responsible discussion. END

Comments
MN, Intelligent design and creation science are very different things, particularly as regards the insertion of scriptural traditions in control of scientific reasoning and education. Yes, there are claims that the scriptures record the testimony of God who was there, but specific interpretations are debated and there is no general acceptance of such claims. Public education cannot reasonably be expected to impose such. As has already been highlighted, contingency is a part of the analysis of being. As to how contingent outcomes arise, that is by chance and/or choice. The former being comparable to what happens when dice or coins etc are tossed or when radioactive atoms decay, the latter based on the purposes and preferences of a being with significant freedom. Atheistical evolutionary materialism does struggle with responsible, rational freedom. That is a part of the self referential incoherence it falls into. And no, in a context of deep disagreement, simply imposing creation science will not effectively answer to evolutionary materialism that seems to be backed by science. Indeed, to make the attempt will simply slot oneself into dismissible pigeonholes. The real approach is to take genuine critical thinking deeper, to address worldview issues. As has been done above. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2015
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It is just obviously required to do creation science, intelligent design science, to be a creationist. And that means to do science about how things are chosen in the universe. It means to describe the facts about how people choose things, and to describe the facts about how things are chosen in nature in general. And the main benefit of teaching creationism would be acceptance of the validity of subjectivity, because subjectivity operates by choosing it is also taught. Besides that creationism would provide some interesting knowledge, and useful technology, but that does not compare to the benefit of acceptance of the validity of subjectivity. Atheists / materialists, disregard the human spirit, as well as God the holy spirit, because the philosophies are in practise based upon rejection of subjectivity in general. They ignore people's emotions, just as well as they ignore God. So that is how atheism / materialism is a blight on society, occasioning societal disasters such as nazism and communism. By not teaching creationism, you are essentially respecting the controversy over free will. You are saying well we cannot teach how things are chosen, because we are not sure. But of course kids need knowledge about how things are chosen for their daily lives.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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MN, I follow up. First, I have utterly zero interest in "establishing Creation Science" or the like. There is no good reason to try to impose any scheme by which interpretations of any scriptural tradition control, canalise and censor either science or science education. That would be as distorting as the present situation where a priori evolutionary materialism does the same. I have high confidence instead that truth is truth, and will be ultimately coherent and comprehensive. Which is reason enough to pursue science as a way to understand the world, without force-fitting ideological agendas on it. So also, natural theology -- much broader than science -- is also worth looking at in its own right as a philosophically linked study. And, we may readily see that if it is true that we are the creation and children of God, God who is there and is not silent, then that will be evident from the world without and our inner life within. So evident, that turning from such truth will require a strained effort that patently distorts and clouds our reasoning. This is also actually the declared view of the Judaeo-Christian scriptural tradition, and particularly of Paul as stated in the most consciously systematically theological statement of Christian theology in the Bible, Romans. Let me clip Rom 1, here expanding the themes sounded in Ac 17 and complementing and supplementing those in 1 Cor 1 - 2:
Rom 1:18 For [God does not overlook sin and] the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in their wickedness suppress and stifle the truth, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them [in their inner consciousness], for God made it evident to them. 20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense. 21 For even though [d]they knew God [as the Creator], they did not [e]honor Him as God or give thanks [for His wondrous creation]. On the contrary, they became worthless in their thinking [godless, with pointless reasonings, and silly speculations], and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God for [f]an image [worthless idols] in the shape of mortal man and birds and four-footed animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their own hearts to [sexual] impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin], 25 because [by choice] they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! . . . . 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or consider Him worth knowing [as their Creator], God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do things which are improper and repulsive, 29 until they were filled (permeated, saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice and mean-spiritedness. They are gossips [spreading rumors], 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors [of new forms] of evil, disobedient and disrespectful to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful [without pity]. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree and His judgment, that those who do such things deserve death, yet they not only do them, but they even [enthusiastically] approve and tolerate others who practice them.[AMP]
And indeed, that is precisely what we find, on considering carefully:
1 --> We find that pondering being and linked themes such as non-being and cause, the cosmos is rooted in necessary being. So the concept of an eternal, independent root of reality is more than viable. 2 --> Of serious necessary being candidates, we find abstractions and mind successful, matter [being composite] fails. So it is reasonable to acknowledge mind as root of reality. (BTW, this also sets up the principle that mind can act on matter, hence the promise in the Smith two-tier controller view of bio-cybernetic systems.) 3 --> On actually looking at the cosmos, the often philosophically preferred steady state view of the material cosmos collapsed from the 1920's - 60's, as evidence forced general acceptance of an expanding observed cosmos that points back to a singularity [big bang] c 13.7 BYA. A beginning, crying out for an adequate beginner. 4 --> Speculative attempts to project oscillating universes, ever budding fluctuations, multiverses, branes etc all run into serious problems in themselves and all run beyond observational testing/confirmation and so are strictly philosophical rather than scientific exercises.Never mind the lab coats, telescopes and pictures. 5 --> Further to this, the physics of the cosmos shows itself in many ways to be fine tuned, setting up a habitat for C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, terrestrial planet in galactic habitable zone, cell based life. 6 --> This strongly points to design by a cosmic architect beyond the cosmos. 7 --> The world of cell based life is replete with functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information. Including coded -- thus both linguistic and purposeful -- information in the heart of the cell. This points to design at origin of life and to design of major body plans including our own. 8 --> Design in the world of life on earth does not by itself point to design within or beyond the cosmos much less by who, but in the above context, a clear pattern emerges. 9 --> As we turn to ourselves and our inner life, it becomes clear that just to reason, warrant and know, we must be responsibly, rationally free. This implies that brains and neural networks are not adequate to account for rationality, as computation is blindly mechanical and is not equal to freely rational contemplation. 10 --> Further to this, we find ourselves under moral government, pointing to the need for an IS that grounds OUGHT; which post Hume, can only be found at the root level of reality. 11 --> For which, historically, after centuries of debates, there has been precisely one serious candidate: the inherently good, eternal, independent Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, thus worthy of loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in light of our evident nature. That is, the God of ethical theism. 12 --> So, we now come up against the logic of necessary being: if X is a serious candidate necessary being, X must be either possible or impossible (as a square circle is impossible as its core characteristics are in mutual contradiction and cannot be instantiated). 13 --> Where, a possible being would exist in at least one possible world. But if a necessary being would exist in any one possible world that means that it is foundational to the framework of existence of any world and so would be present in ANY possible world. (E.g. try to compose a possible world in which 2 + 3 = 5 does not obtain.) 14 --> This brings out that the real challenge faced by atheism is not whether it is possible for someone to disbelieve the reality of God. It is that such disbelief (sometimes presented as "absence of belief") implies a commitment to the impossibility of God; which is a seriously challenged notion especially after Plantinga's free will defence has gutted the rhetorical power of the former favourite appeal of atheists to the problem of evil. 15 --> Beyond such, in fact millions of people have been transformed across the ages by meeting God in the face of the risen Christ. Starting with the core 500 witnesses at the foundation of the Christian contention who could not be shaken in the face of dungeon, fire and sword or worse. 16 --> In short, experiencing the life changing reality of God and/or of our sense of being under moral government thus a moral governor is not a culturally stamped, ill-supported, commonplace delusion -- such would bring the general credibility of the human mind into question -- but a massively grounded fact of direct experience. 17 --> Instead, it is those who cavalierly imply mass delusion of such millions who seem to be labouring under questionable though widely promoted notions.
So -- contrary to what was slipped into the Katy School District, TX curriculum -- ethical theism is in fact a substantial belief system with significant warrant; it is not an easily dismissed ill supported culturally stamped commonplace notion. Nor does such pivot crucially on differences between what facts, opinions and mythical notions etc are. The hard work of substantiating where one stands, why, stands as a duty for those who advocate any significant worldview alternative and its first plausible commitments. Patently, ethical theism meets that test. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2015
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MN, briefly, a typical 12 YO can memorise the definitions of fact, opinion, commonplace notion, truth, falsity, lie etc. Indeed, should be taught such and trained how o use good dictionaries. S/he can be taught typical cases and will be able to solve closely similar cases, but will lack ability and experience to think abstractly and to be independently analytical or synthetic, especially on worldviews or in novel and unexpected situations. This BTW is linked to struggles to learn Mathematics such as Algebra or Calculus or Physics at that age. The curriculum was manipulative. Later. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2015
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You want kids to not be taught the difference between fact and opinion? It should be taught, it is generally practically useful. And if it is taught more precisely, then it is the same as teaching creationism in a general sense. Somebody who can do creation science would also have to understand how people design things, because in science all theories are stated in their general form. So intelligent design theory is about all design in general. So then, in practical effect we get rid of atheism, and we establish creation science, by teaching the difference between fact and opinion more precisely. That would be of great benefit. You know how much difference that makes for people's lives, when people acknowledge each others emotions? It's a huge difference, an enormous benefit. The mention of God can be left out in teaching the difference between fact and opinion, because of it being controversial.mohammadnursyamsu
December 11, 2015
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MN, First, the girl is a 12 year old, and should never have been put on a spot like that. She tried to defend her faith with what she has heard, which is whatever ill-instructed things are talked about in church, Christian, Christian media and general circles. One of the sobering things about such targetting is that it will force responsible pastors etc to indoctrinate in standard responses through a catechism style question-answer on what was memorised. And, should the following triggers be pulled, here is the speed dial to the religious freedom law firm. There is a biologically and socially linked process of cognitive maturation and 12 year olds are not normally ready for abstract thought and reasoning. Though, they can be great parrots if suitably programmed . . . but that is a dangerous procedure if handled with a lack of integrity and/or usurpation of parental authority. Indeed there are questionable elements to the critical thinking unit that tie to that, before we come to such a loaded question. The whole seems to be educationally irresponsible practice. Similarly irresponsible praxis pervades education in a day where institutions are dominated by radically secularist evolutionary materialist scientism and fellow travellers including cultural marxism and its own fellow travellers. I have seen some literature books for the same age that are revered by teachers etc that should never be in curricula. And BTW, I was not happy with the underlying messages in the Harry Potter series, Far better would have been Chronicles of Narnia. Which of course is locked out. Secondly, the concept necessary being does not involve consciousness as such. It is based on -- as was repeated yesterday for convenience -- an assessment of modes of being as possible/ impossible and of possible contingent and non-contingent. Non contingent possible beings are necessary beings. Further, it so happens that God as eternal, independent etc is a serious candidate necessary being. This is not novelty or dubious, it is standard, save that I am emphasising candidacy to go to the next point. Namely that such a serious candidate will be possible or else impossible (as a square circle is impossible) and once possible will be actual. As for why, I have already outlined. The fact that God as necessary being is a standard part of systematic theology should serve to highlight that such is not contrary to Creation ex nihilo. For just one instance necessarily true propositions are thoughts and would be among things eternally contemplated by God. Creation as instantiated is highly contingent and thus reflects the free choice of God. As for science, it is no shame to point to weaknesses and limitations thereof. It also seems that you have yet to examine the Smith model for bio-cybernetic entities, as was already pointed out to you. Your points on subjectivity and creationism etc as I have repeatedly highlighted, will simply slot you into a handy exclusionary pigeonhole based on the established frames of thought entrenched in institutions. The approach may work to a certain extent online but not in the context of curricula and schooling in today's ideological climate. Which is directly relevant. The required approach is to go all the way back to worldviews and show why ethical theism is not properly dismissible through a one liner talking point as a culturally stamped, ill supported commonplace notion. I have also showed why the understanding that God is necessary being etc is not antithetical to responsible, rational freedom but instead undergirds it. And more. You do not have to agree, but the point has long since been made. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2015
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The girl who did that test was actually a post-modernist. She talked about how it was a "fact for her" that God exists, while she "understood", how it would not be a fact for other people. That really means to say that opinion is inherent to facts, which is post-modernism. You are not actually addressing what I write. I mean...total unresponsiveness. As already mentioned, nothing is properly the mathematical zero. Creatio ex nihilo. Nothing has forever been the mainstay of the material part to the philosophy of creation. The grounds for disbelief in God is to consider what is in the spiritual domain, and then decide that God is not there. Expression of emotion with free will, thus choosing, resulting in a finding of emptiness. So my criticism of the necessary being construct 1. it convolutes subjectivity Subjectivity is held separate from belief in God (in stead the belief is forced by logic), and subjectivity is ignored for the rest of it. 2. it is counterintuitive in respect to creatio ex nihilo 3. denial of the mechanism of creation as choosing You do no science about how things are chosen, at all. Because there is no logical progression from necessary being, to that being choosing anything.mohammadnursyamsu
December 11, 2015
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MN, Pardon, but you underscore the point on needed worldview education as a part of basics on how to think seriously. (Cf here on. Not Creationism or Religion, but first steps in phil.) For the case in view, simple analysis of being shows: possible vs impossible. For the latter, core characteristics stand in mutual contradiction so the proposed being cannot exist in any possible world. Classically, a square circle. Possible beings would exist in at least one possible world. These may be seen as two categories: contingent and necessary. Contingent beings such as my PC or me, will exist in at least one possible world, nut not in at least one other neighbouring possible world. That is, they depend on factors that vary across worlds, causes. Including on/off enabling factors such as the fire example in the OP illustrates. We commonly hear that that which begins to exist, or depends on external factors to sustain existence or may cease to exist has a cause. That is we here begin to probe what cause means. This is prior to science, for example. And I have used the fire example educationally for this purpose. However, there are also beings (broadly conceived) that must exist in any possible world, being bound up in its framework. For instance, the truth asserted in 2 + 3 = 5 did not begin, and cannot cease from being. It is a necessary being, an eternally and necessarily true and indeed self evident proposition. A thought-entity that must be so soon as anything exists. That takes us to a whole cluster of onward insights but let us stop here for now, necessary beings exist. Given that matter is composite, variable etc, no material entity can be a necessary being. Serious candidate necessary beings will be things like minds and things contemplated by minds such as necessarily true propositions. This sets a context for people indoctrinated in an evolutionary materialist scientism dominated era to begin to think outside the box of their programming. For instance, consider the idea of popping a cosmos out of "nothing" as Krauss and Dawkins recently championed. Properly, nothing is non-being and such has no causal powers. If ever there were utter nothing, such would forever obtain. So as a world now is, something -- something utterly independent of other things -- always was. Something both necessary and eternal. For many today, that is shocking. Further shocker, 100 years back, the steady state universe notion envisioned that somehow the physical cosmos as a whole was eternal. Big bang evidence blew that up and the scramble across budding off sub cosmi, oscillating universes, multiverse brane etc is the result, All highly speculative metaphysics not observationally anchored physics. So, all serious alternatives need to sit to the table as of right. This includes a necessary being as world root who fundamentally is mind, or from another view, spirit. Eternal Spirit and cosmic architect. Immediately, this is not an irresponsible, ill supported culturally stamped commonplace myth to be dismissed with a critical thinking class talking point one liner. The shamefulness of what happened in Katy indep school district TX, is laid bare. But this raises further issues. The cosmos shows fine tuning pointing to design setting up a habitat for C chemistry aqueous medium cell based life. We are such life, we are minded, we find we must be responsibly and rationally free to be minded and we find we are under moral government. As the reference to shame just illustrated. That puts up a very special serious candidate necessary being: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our nature. That is, ethical theism is a serious live option worldview, not something to be brushed aside with a bigoted one liner as happened in Texas. But one more shocker remains. Once something is a serious candidate necessary being, and is not impossible [i.e. it would be in at least one feasible world] it must exist in all possible worlds and thus also the actual one. So the issue is not whether necessary beings are a serious concept. It is not whether such things do exist. It is not whether such is relevant to the roots of reality. It is not whether God is a serious candidate necessary being. It is whether God as understood by ethical theism, is impossible as a being. Formerly of course, atheistical objectors were fond of trotting out the problem of evil, but the problem has been blunted by Plantinga's free will defense. And more significantly, long since it is stopped cold by the linked problem of the good: for as evil is the perversion and/or privation or frustration of the good out of purpose, if evil is real, the good is real and points to its root. (And yes, absent a nature and purpose, perversion, privation and frustration do not exist and good/evil becomes a socially conditioned commonplace notion, leading straight to might and manipulation make 'right' and 'good' and 'truth' etc. As Plato warned against so long ago in The Laws Bk X. The curriculum developers of Katy District were playing with big matches indeed.) So, we are back at the real challenge to atheism: can atheists back their implied claim that God as understood by ethical theism is impossible as a square circle is impossible? And no, trying to wiggle out by redefining atheism as absence of belief in God is an evasion. The issue is you imply that you have sufficient grounds to reject and disbelieve that claim, that the inherently good eternal Creator God exists. If so, what are the grounds, please. And so, we are at a very important point. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2015
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The necessary being adds 1 layer of complexity. Then you will have at least 3 forms of existence. 1. the necessary being 2. spiritual, subjective being, choosing agency / creating, like love and hate, the existence of which is a matter of opinion 3. material, objective being, chosen / created thing, the universe, the existence of which is a matter of fact And you can already get rid of atheism / materialism, by teaching the difference between fact and opinion more precisely, which is already taught at school.mohammadnursyamsu
December 10, 2015
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F/N: Ruse on Dawkins (HT Bevets):
Does he [= Dawkins] honestly think that no philosopher or theologian has ever thought of or worried about the infinite regress of the cosmological argument? If God caused the world, what caused God? The standard reply is that God needs no cause because he is a necessary being, eternal, outside time. Read Saint Augustine's Confessions. Just as 2+2=4 is uncaused and always true, so is God's existence. Now you might want to worry about the notion of necessary existence. [--> including understanding how it comes up as an issue for worldviews] But at least you should know that it is something to worry about. And if you are going to reject the notion, then you must yourself address the key question behind the proof, the question that Martin Heidegger said was the fundamental question of metaphysics: Why is there something rather than nothing? If not God, then what? ISIS December 2007 p.815
Notice, one way in which necessary being is on the table, and the implied need to address why that is so in general. Why is there something rather than nothing? KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2015
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MN, we are dealing with radical secular humanist, evolutionary materialistic scientism, as Lewontin inadvertently so aptly described and exemplified. That is the focal issue, and it is what lies behind the manipulation of critical thinking curriculum, indeed I am beginning to suspect cross links to critical theory, i.e. Frankfurt School Cultural Marxism, known to be unduly influential in the social sciences and arts. To deal with such, we need worldviews analysis, thus the series and the focus of the OP. KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2015
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Obviously science will be limited to facts, so is thereby limited to the material domain. That leaves opinions relevant to the spiritual domain, which spiritual domain chooses the way the material domain turns out. So it means Lewontin just doesn't understand about subjectivity, expression of emotions, forming an opinion. And because of that he also doesn't understand about the facts of how things are chosen.mohammadnursyamsu
December 8, 2015
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MN: The actual primary commitment typically involved, as inadvertently exposed by Lewontin:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads [==> as in, "we" have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge] we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2015
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Only the definition of fact as model would be taught. That a fact corresponds 1 to 1 with something in the material domain. That is the main, and practically useful definition of fact. We want people to understand that when they are asked about the facts of what happened, that then they must go into copy mode, and provide an exact as can be model of what happened. This is very practically useful for many situations.mohammadnursyamsu
December 8, 2015
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From discussing on the internet I have loads and loads of evidence that all this philosophical naturalism / materialism / atheism etc. amounts to, is rejection of subjectivity. I know for certain I am right about that. Atheism can be gotten rid of by teaching these 2 categories, much the same as was already taught to that little girl. But that test was just in error. What I propose is doable, as is shown by that there are already many tests learning students to distinguish fact from opinion. It is then simply a matter of being more precise about what a fact and an opinion is, to make the test into teaching creationism. Teaching worldview theory is not doable because it's controversial. I disagree with the necessary being worldview.mohammadnursyamsu
December 8, 2015
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F/N: Collins English Dictionary:
fact (fækt) n 1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed 2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation 3. a piece of information: get me all the facts of this case. 4. (Law) law (often plural) an actual event, happening, etc, as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge 5. (Philosophy) philosophy a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement 6. (Law) after the fact criminal law after the commission of the offence: an accessory after the fact. 7. (Law) before the fact criminal law before the commission of the offence 8. as a matter of fact in fact in point of fact in reality or actuality 9. fact of life an inescapable truth, esp an unpleasant one 10. the fact of the matter the truth [C16: from Latin factum something done, from factus made, from facere to make] ?factful adj
Consider: the fact of the resurrection attested to by 500 witnesses and recorded well within their lifetime, multiplied by the further facts of 300 or so fulfilled scriptural prophecies of Messiah, constitute a strong proof of the reality of God in the face of Christ. Further, the fact of life transforming experience of God for millions across the ages through penitent trust in Jesus is a further support for the reality of God. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2015
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MN, All you would achieve is to put yourself in a pigeonhole. There is a need to engage the worldview level issues to open up space for rethinking. For those willing to actually think. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2015
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I agree that there is a lot of teaching of atheism going on in the disguise of "critical thinking". The atheists always drone on and on, and on, and on, about the scientific method. Whic is really again just a fact only approach, omitting opinion. I must simply insist on teaching generic creationism, as I explained it. It is simple and straightforward, solves the problem of atheism, materialism etc. The sort of test that the 12 year old took, would actually be one of the main teaching tools in teaching creationism. Distinguishing matters of opinion, from matters of fact. Putting opinion in the creator, spiritual, choosing, category, and fact in the creation, material, chosen, category. Atheists, materialists would fail such a test. What category does love belong to? Well love is in the creator, spiritual and choosing category. That means love can do the job of choosing, make a decision turn out one way or another. It also means one can only reach the conclusion love exists by choosing if it is real or not. That is the hardest part to get across, how making an opinion works. That with opinions you reach the conclusion by expression of emotion with free will, thus choosing. While with facts you have evidence forcing to a conclusion, producing a model. People will always, always, try to make everything into a factual issue.mohammadnursyamsu
December 8, 2015
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PPS: I have long been of the view that students in school of appropriate age -- there are biological and nurturing linked maturation issues -- should be given education in genuine straight-thinking skills informed onwards by worldviews and logical analysis factors. I am now becoming concerned that something good -- as usual it now seems -- is being ridden piggyback by the sadly usual radical agendas. In this case, I notice how ever so much of the news coverage on the focal issue has sought to isolate and discredit Jordan Wooley, a 12 year old student (I note only that FOX 26 indicates interviews with families show that her summaries of fact and concerns were accurately put) but did not probe the obvious policy question: how did such a patently manipulative, polarising radical agenda serving point get into a curriculum and make it into the classroom? Especially in a context where due to other policies and law the other side of the story such as has been outlined here at UD will likely be locked out. Surely, one side of a contentious story is NOT what genuine critical thinking is about. We are seeing the tip of an iceberg. PPPS: I should link two of my related resources: straight thinking: http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Straight_Thinking.pdf media spin: http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/straight_or_spin.htmkairosfocus
December 8, 2015
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PS: I clip key education provisions of the platform:
American Identity Patriotism and Loyalty – We believe the current teaching of a multicultural curriculum is divisive. We favor strengthening our common American identity and loyalty instead of political correctness that nurtures alienation among racial and ethnic groups. Students should pledge allegiance to the American and Texas flags daily to instill patriotism. Basic Standards – We favor improving the quality of education for all students, including those with special needs. We support a return to the traditional basics of reading, writing, arithmetic, and citizenship with sufficient discipline to ensure learning and quality educational assessment. Bilingual Education – We encourage non-English speaking students to transition to English within three years . . . . Controversial Theories – We support objective teaching and equal treatment of all sides of scientific theories. We believe theories such as life origins and environmental change should be taught as challengeable scientific theories subject to change as new data is produced. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind . . . . Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority
In context, there is a clear concern to return to a focus on basics and discipline, multiplied by responses to cultural marxist, secular humanist, and similar agendas of radical character. It seems that there is need for a fair and reasonable discussion of both sides of some deeply troubling issues that are coming out in education policy and curriculum issues. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2015
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F/N: I followed up, noting a WP article. First, what the Texas Republican Party 2012 platform (cf here) is cited as having said:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority
This is how the WP writer responded:
Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.” It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.” When taken with the other parts of the education platform(see below), it seems a fair conclusion that the GOP Party in Texas doesn’t think much of public education. Unfortunately, this notion isn’t limited to the GOP in Texas but is more commonly being seen across the country by some of the most strident of “school reformers” . . . . It sees “critical thinking” as something subversive. Scary stuff.
The tone of the Valerie Strauss article makes it plain that she and her editors think the Texas Republicans are ill informed, driven by prejudices and have no substantial basis for concern. But despite the advertisement and ideal that critical thinking:
consists of seeing both sides of an issue, being open to new evidence that disconfirms your ideas, reasoning dispassionately, demanding that claims be backed by evidence, deducing and inferring conclusions from available facts, solving problems, and so forth. Then too, there are specific types of critical thinking that are characteristic of different subject matter: That’s what we mean when we refer to “thinking like a scientist” or “thinking like a historian.”
. . . it is quite clear from the case in point of curriculum abuse to indoctrinate in radical secularism smacking of new atheism, that the Texas Republican Party 2012 platform had a point. Likely, driven by similar complaints, cases and concerns we are not hearing about. Certainly, values clarification, outcome based education and other topics that can be made to sound wonderful when presented as ideal definitions and high level curricular goals, have commonly fallen far short in practice and far too often have been implicated in radical abuse of curriculum power driven by activists operating under secular humanist, evolutionary materialist scientism and cultural marxist/ critical theory agendas that could not stand up in open debate on the merits. It seems that the tip of the iceberg we see through this case is pointing to deeper, dangerous but largely hidden agendas. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2015
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MN I will briefly note that earlier on in the series, I showed from the critical thinking education literature that culturally induced but ill supported commonplace notions and egocentric and/or ethnocentric prejudices are used as a major category of classifying thought. There is some limited legitimacy to such, but failure to properly address worldview foundations and alternatives substantially and fairly readily lends itself to the sort of strawmannish one liner dismissals of ethical theism that we saw. (NB: such is the general class of worldview that the Judaeo-Christian Tradition falls under.) FYI, the step by step reduction of lines of reasoning and warrant to face the triple issue of infinite regress, circular question-begging and finitely remote start points is a fairly standard worldviews analysis issue; it leads to the question of basic beliefs and presuppositions. Similarly, comparative difficulties analysis across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power is actually a fundamental philosophical method. (I have added a link in the OP that further explains.) Next, I suggest you acquaint yourself with the logic of abductive inference to the best (current) explanation. I will finally note that the focal issue here is not creationism or creation science [which are in themselves major tangential issues in an educational policy and curriculum context], much less how choice and subjectivity become important, but addressing a significant case of manipulation of a question in critical thinking curricula that has come up through actual case. This requires worldviews analysis and start points that do not trigger well known lockout triggers. There is no point in setting oneself up to be slotted into the stereotypes to be dismissed with one liners, in the classroom, on the curriculum development committee, or the district school board. This leads straight to worldviews analysis and presentation of argument at that level that shows substantial support rendering the commonplace ill founded notion category patently improper. And, it is not opinion but worldviews analysis that crucially counts. At this level, that something is a responsible and substantial, informed worldview not an ill-informed notion, is what is needed. And, I strongly suspect, this is where this and likely other critical thinking curricula have gone astray. Where, nature of being is a significant issue and the issue of the root or source of the world is a major consideration and concern. Similarly, it is my considered view that the pivotal issue in addressing implications of self-aware, minded and enconscienced agency such as we experience, is responsible, rational freedom. Beyond that I have outlined sufficient of the case as to why ethical theism is a serious major worldview option that one liner dismissal is not a proper educational response. That is the main thing, and I think enough has been exchanged on tangential matters that such can be left to the onlooker to follow up. Especially on the issue that God as root of being and of morality being understood as an Eternal independent root of reality in whom we live and move and have our being and Creator - Sustainer of the world, is somehow undermining of freedom. And yes, an eternal independent I AM THAT I AM would be a necessary being, as will come up in a systematic theology course or text that engages philosophy of religion issues. KF PS: Note UK A Level Syllabus: http://www.ocr.org.uk/Images/73470-specification.pdf PPS: I glanced at Wiki and ran across a telling note for Texas (the incident in view occurred in Texas):
In its 2012 platform, the Republican Party of Texas rejected the teaching of "Higher Order Thinking Skills... critical thinking skills and similar programs," giving as a reason that this sort of teaching has "the purpose of challenging the student's fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Media ridicule led to a response from RPT Communications Director Chris Elam that the inclusion of the term "critical thinking skills" was an oversight which cannot be corrected until 2014, when the next state convention will occur.
Of course, the Republicans are made to sound like they fall right into the ill informed prejudice category (and seem to perpetually have problems in formulating position statements), but the case in view of improper and morally seriously irresponsible categorisation of the concept that God exists by what are plainly activists abusing curriculum development roles equally plainly documents how improper undermining of responsible worldviews and community standards can be smuggled into something seemingly as innocuous as a critical thinking unit in a Reading curriculum for 12 year olds. Agendas, agit prop activists and enablers are serious issues in our dying civilisation.kairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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I don't see anything relevant in what you seem to have been posting in the afternoon. I don't know what you are referring to.mohammadnursyamsu
December 7, 2015
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MN, please look again. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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1 creationism as I described it validates both fact and opinion. Fact and opinion are the basics of any reasoning. Or so to say, creationism as I have described it beats any other worldview for practicality including your necessary being construct. 2 obviously "commonplace assertion" is an odd category in the test, besides the fundamental categories of fact and opinion. It is indeed atheism to assert common assertion, the correct answer is opinion. 3 and I addressed that with saying there are 2 categories for existence, creator and creation, spiritual and material, opinion and fact 4 obviously nobody will get away with "worldview" education, and your worldview is wrong. but teaching kids how subjectivity works, the same as it is in common discourse, that is immediately practically useful, that can be taught. 5 the mechanism of creation is not cause and effect, but choosing. God chooses a cause together with it's effect, as one thing. It is wrong to say God is the cause, and the universe is the effect of God. 6 creatio ex nihilo, and, ex nihilo, nihil fit. That is the correct theory of everything. An action has an opposite and equal reaction, signifying a totality of zero. The theory of everything (every material thing) is then mathematics ordered by zero. 7 you contrast the contingency of the universe with the necessity of God. But necessity belongs to the universe as well, the relationship between a cause and it's effect is necessary. Meaning the cause and effect are 1 thing together. There are no causes without effects, nor effects without causes. 8 it is no surprise to me that you would bring objectivity into aesthetics. You do not comprehend the subjective part to aesthetics, which is the essence of it. 9 belief in God as opinion is religion. That is the tradition called "faith", which is the largest tradition within religion. 10 refer to 1, fact and opinion, they have enormous practical usefulness 11 First freedom is accepted, then because of freedom we can differ. But you offered necessary being, and freedom you weakened for not having an empirical model. 12 The comparison must be between God as necessary being, and God as subjective being. 13 I agree the universe is a contingency. That is integral to my explanation of creationism, that the universe is *per definition* chosen. 14 oscillating universe seems to be in line with the universe as a contingency 15 I see no problem in acknowledging the reality of infinities. One can do maths with infinities. 16 the fault of materialism is much more obvious, in that it does not provide any conceptual room for saying things are beautiful and such 17 to put the words responsible and rational in front of freedom, is rather to pussyfoot around the fact that any decision can turn out one of several different ways in the moment. That freedom is in essence spontaneous. 18 there was no logical progression presented from God as necessary being, to responsible freedom. There is a logical progression from God as subjective being, to responsible freedom. When the belief in God is by choice, then this choice of belief in God conditions responsible choosing in general. 19 As before, no logical progression from necessary being to responsible freedom 20 as before 21 God as subjective being straightforwardly links to freedom of opinion. The declaration is more reasonably interpreted as that the existence of God is a matter of faith, which is a form of opinion, and not the logical acceptance of a necessary being. 22 To relate God to freedom, and subjective issues like worth, all the more indicates God as subjective being 23 it is questionably tyranical to require the acceptance of the existence of God. 24 25 inner life, your emotions, that is not a factual issue. It is a matter of opinion whether you are loving or hateful. And the final judgement is the last word on it. 26 subjectivity is a fundamental category next to objectivity. You have said things about there not being a model, about objectivity being part of aesthetics, about "just" opinion. all not good. 27 People believing in spiritual emptiness can be charmingly pathetic in my opinion. It is just that the atheists reject subjectivity altogether. They don't choose the conclusion of emptiness, they pretend the lack of evidence forces them to this conclusion, which is not charming at all. 28 many constants in the universe follow from the ordering of mathematics by zero, meaning the constants could not be other than they are. There is design in the cosmos still. For organisms, it is obvious they are designed. 29 oughts are grounded in agency of decision. At root the univers is chosen. 30 31 32 it is very obviously a doubtful point to REQUIRE acceptance that God is real. George W. Bush emphasized that only chosen religion is meaningful religion, as one of the reasons for the war with Iraq.mohammadnursyamsu
December 7, 2015
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MN, Kindly see what I posted across this afternoon. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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I addressed the school assignment, by explaining how the existence of God is opinion, in stead of fact, or common assertion. I addressed the necessary being construct, and pointed out the convolution in it, in regards to agency. I read what was on offer. Subjectivity is a big thing, you are talking in a dismissive way about it, not properly evaluating the importance of it. When people accept subjectivity is valid, sure they can still say God is not real, because with the rules of subjectivity this is equally as valid as saying that God is real. But the thing is that people don't reject God when they accept subjectivity is valid. The only thing what keeps people from acknowledging God is real is rejection of subjectivity. People require evidence of God, thus making it into a factual issue, and then start to try to measure God, which is of course impossible. Atheism, philosophical naturalism, materialism, nazism, communism etc. they all reject subjectivity. A nazi will assert as pseudoscientific fact what the spiritual qualities of the races are, replacing subjectivity with objectivity. An atheist will say to measure love in the brain, replacing subjectivity with objectivity. etc. etc. I can give you loads and loads of examples demonstrating the rejection of subjectivity amongst the wellknown enemies of faith. Now you listen to me, we are here doing creation science, and choosing is the mechanism of creation. So we are going to describe the origins of things in terms of the decisions by which they came to be. No excuses that you cannot find an empirical model for how choosing works. You are supposed to be on the creationist side, then you must support science about how things are chosen. This seems to me a very obvious request that creationists do creation science.mohammadnursyamsu
December 7, 2015
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MN, Continuing, I must pick up on your view of opinions: >>The proper understanding is that the existence of God is a matter of opinion.>> 1 --> We are dealing here with worldview alternatives, and how they are able to address comparative difficulties. 2 --> The issue is that (hijacking government power in education) it is being promoted that ethical theism especially by implication of context the Judaeo-Christian tradition, is not a substantial, serious worldview but at best a commonplace myth . . . if this sounds like the attitude of the new atheists, that should be no surprise. 3 --> So, the first level of response is to go to that level, and identify what the nature of being says about the roots of reality. 4 --> What it shows (and which you have not seriously addressed) is that we have possible vs impossible and of possible, contingent and necessary. The former would be in at least one possible world, but not in at least one other possible world; the latter -- being connected to what is required for a world to exist -- would be in any possible world. In our day, we are mostly unfamiliar with this, and need worldviews 101. Impoverished education systems and an anti-intellectual spirit of the age, also the contempt of scientism for learning beyond science. Such is so ignorant it does not realise that rejecting knowledge beyond science explicitly or implicitly, becomes self referentially incoherent as this is an epistemological knowledge claim, a philosophical view that is a basic error. 5 --> Where also, non-being is such that it has no causal powers, thus if there were ever an utter nothing, such would forever obtain. So, as a world is, there must have been always something independent of other things, the root of reality. 6 --> This is a general and basic point, rooted in the point that from a real nothing, nothing comes. 7 --> There is nothing here that forces such a necessary being at the root of reality to be God or whatever, this is just an abstract point. >> Meaning that the conclusion God does not exist is equally logically valid to the conclusion God does exist. Same as saying the painting is beautiful is equally logically valid to saying the painting is ugly, that’s how opinions work.>> 8 --> Not at this level, worldview alternatives that are serious have to stand up to comparative difficulties. (BTW, aesthetics, too is not just opinion, it has objective grounding and principles. Just, again, not commonly studied today.) >>Then religion becomes linked to democracy, the freedom of opinion and religion, because of requiring choice.>> 9 --> Religion as such has not entered at any stage, you are introducing religion which here would have to be addressed as worldviews expressed in a tradition of one kind or other. 10 --> What is of significant interest is the worldview, and how it meets comparative difficulties. 11 --> And, in any reasonable worldview discussion there has to be a recognised right to differ. If you scroll up you will see that there are diverse possible core clusters of presuppositions and basic beliefs thus faith-points that are diverse. >> While if you argue God is a necessary being, well then what stops the government from forcing to accept the existence of a “necessary” being?>> 12 --> That a necessary being lies at the root of reality is pretty well undeniable on the logic of the consequences of utter nothing. The onward issue is what are viable candidates and what do you choose, why i/l/o comparative difficulties. 13 --> 100 years ago, the physical cosmos was taken by many as steady state and self sustaining, eternal. The Hubble expansion discoveries and the principle of expansion lurking in General Relativity, shook that up from the 1920's, with the 2.7 K background microwave radiation in the 60's putting paid to the Steady State theory. 14 --> There are and have been oscillating cosmos, budding expansion and multiverse speculations, all of which have grave difficulties but are held by some. 15 --> One difficulty with an eternal physical cosmos that is often under-recognised is that of traversing a transfinite number of finite steps or stages that are causally connected, one at a time. Namely, such a traversal is dubious, given the problem of arrival. There are many other technical problems and the biggie, that his is not science as it is beyond empirical testing. (Note, I do not say, falsification.) 16 --> I have already pointed out the problem with any evolutionary materialistic theory . . . at broad level: cosmological --> solar system --> chemical --> OOL --> biological maco --> origin of humans with our characteristics of mindedness and moral government . . . in accounting for responsible, rational freedom and its resulting self referential incoherence as the theory depends critically on our ability to reason. 17 --> It is particularly important to underscore that without responsible, rational freedom [pace Provine et al] the life of reason collapses, landing advocates of such in self-referential incoherence. 18 --> Likewise, we are inescapably morally governed, which pervades not only what we think of as morality but the responsibility involved in reasoning and responding appropriately to evident facts and realities. Or even just balance of warrant in a context of actions that can have consequences that may be costly. 19 --> This sets up the key and directly evident hole in: >> The government might just argue the acceptance of the necessary being is necessary for basic morality, or basic reasoning.>> 20 --> At immediate level, the point just highlighted is that we are responsibly, rationally free, so a government that attacks or unduly trammels such freedom, is tyrannical and has undermined its legitimacy. 21 --> But also, that a government respects the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature is historically an ANCHOR for liberty, not a trammel upon it. Witness, the US DoI of 1776 (which of course I discussed earlier and linked on from the OP):
We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
22 --> The 55 Founders (no, it was not just Jefferson) here argue that God anchors liberty and rights, with government legitimate as a defender of the proper balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities thus the civil peace of justice. 23 --> So to portray governments that acknowledge such and live by the implied covenant of government under God in the context of nationhood under God -- and that is the classic double covenant view -- as though they were inevitably and invariably closet tyrants is to erect a strawman caricature. 24 --> But there is more. 25 --> For, the point is the facts of the world include us, our inner life and the artifacts that flow from us. So, 26 --> responsible rational freedom and moral government are part of the reality to be accounted for, not dismissed by arbitrary and backdoor imposition of censoring a priori evolutionary materialist scientism. (And insofar as subjectivity and choice are a part of such, they are taken up in these concepts, so it is an error on your part to keep on writing as though I have not taken such seriously.) 27 --> This is the context in which we face the God of ethical theism as a serious candidate to be the required necessary being at the root of the world. 28 --> Where, the cosmos itself shows fine tuning that sets it to a locally deeply isolated operating point that supports C-chemistry aqueous medium, terrestrial planet, cell based life. Which is full of FSCO/I, itself a strong sign of design. This points to design of cosmos and of the world of life in it, with unified intent. Thus purpose and power to effect such, i.e. design pointing to designer. 29 --> Multiply by responsible rational freedom and moral government, and we are needing an IS capable of grounding OUGHT. Which obviously will only happen at the root of reality. 30 --> Across centuries, there is just one serious candidate, the God of ethical theism. 31 --> Which is not antithetical to responsible, rational freedom and moral government, but are instead foundational. 32 --> Thus it is a strawmannish distortion to infer or suggest that ethical theism is an inevitable enemy of liberty and justice for all. Properly understood, it is just the opposite. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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MN, I must directly ask: have you read the already indicated previous post in the series and engaged, e.g. Nancy Pearcey's critical summary on implications of naturalistic, evolutionary epistemology? What are the implications of what she has highlighted? Do you, therefore, appreciate what imposition backed by the presumption of "science" that many common sense or commonly held views are little more than ill informed prejudices and notions means, especially when coming in a curriculum for 12 year olds from their educators? That is what we are up against. Let me clip just as one illustration William Provine from his 1998 U Tenn Darwin Day address, with annotation:
>Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
In short, on a priori imposition of methodological naturalism, the suspect supernatural and linked superstitions and folk myths are locked out as pre scientific. Such cannot be put in a test tube or a test rig, are not subject to falsification, etc etc, so we rule them out. Sounds ever so reasonable and progressive, educated, we are moving beyond dark ages superstitions and their bronze age genocidal sky war gods, etc etc. Here is the US National Science Teachers Association Board, 2000:
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . [[S]cience, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]
To deal with that, you have to address the underlying worldview assumptions and their self-referential incoherence and question-begging. Talking about subjective states in a context where that is regarded as scientifically discredited delusion, gets you only to the point of being seen as exemplifying the problem they are defining and therefore dismissible as caught up in culturally induced ill supported [not SCIENTIFICALLY supported!] commonplace notions. That is one reason I have already highlighted Lewontin and Johnson's retort, as well as Crick vs Haldane and Reppert and the problem of reducing mind to either electrochemistry or computational processing of signals and tokens. It needs to be clearly understood that responsible, rational freedom as we experience it is a necessary condition of being able to reason, and that evolutionary materialist scientism ends up in self-falsification because it undermines this. So, what we subjectively experience as rationally contemplative, responsible, freely thinking and reasoning beings is not to be dismissed or sidelined but accepted as a base for all further engagement in intellectual activity, in valuing, judging, deciding etc. Further to this, we need to highlight what Lewontinimplies and say Rational Wiki openly admits:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses."
This needs to be exposed as imposing ideological censorship, far from being a plausible methodological constraint. Likewise, it has had to be pointed out that since Plato in The Laws Bk X 2350 ya, nature as chance and necessity can legitimately be alternated with the ART-ificial, where intelligent direction of configuration creates observable outcomes. So natural vs supernatural is a strawman, especially where signs of design can be empirically validated as reliable, such as FSCO/I. So the imposition has to be cogently addressed. Which it is. In this context there is a specific context for addressing ethical theism as more than mere myth. And that requires worldview level analysis, including nature of being and non being, as this OP above speaks to. In short, you are coming across as missing the point. People need to have a first level way to see that theism cannot be simplistically pigeonholed and dismissed like was being tried. That requires a lot more than talk about subjectivity and choice. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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You are not properly evaluating the importance of subjectivity. How important is it for people to talk in terms of beauty, love and goodness etc. ? It is of course of essential practical importance for people's daily lives. So subjectivity is of paramount importance in this whole thing. The atheists, materialists etc. reject it. And in order to reject it, they need to corrupt the meaning of choosing, because subjectivity operates on a free basis. So the definition of choosing, the mechanism of creation, must be guarded from these attempts at corruption. The definition of subjectivity must be formalized and guarded. Subjectivity is a creationist concept. The proper understanding is that the existence of God is a matter of opinion. Meaning that the conclusion God does not exist is equally logically valid to the conclusion God does exist. Same as saying the painting is beautiful is equally logically valid to saying the painting is ugly, that's how opinions work. Then religion becomes linked to democracy, the freedom of opinion and religion, because of requiring choice. While if you argue God is a necessary being, well then what stops the government from forcing to accept the existence of a "necessary" being? The government might just argue the acceptance of the necessary being is necessary for basic morality, or basic reasoning.mohammadnursyamsu
December 7, 2015
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