Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE

Categories
Darwinism
Design inference
Education
Evolution
ID Foundations
Intelligent Design
Origin Of Life
Science
science education
specified complexity
worldview
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

On Sept 23rd, I put up an essay challenge as captioned, primarily to objecting commenter Jerad.

As at October 2nd, he has definitively said: no.

Joe informs us that Zachriel has tried to brush it aside:

Try Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859). It’s a bit dated and longer than 6,000 words, (the 6th edition is 190,000 words), but Darwin considered it just a long abstract, and it still makes for a powerful argument.

This is, frankly, a “don’t bother me” brush-off; telling in itself, as a definitive, successful answer would have momentous impact on this blog.

Zachriel’s response reminds me, all too strikingly, of the cogency of  what Philip Johnson had to say in reply to Lewontin’s claims in his NYRB article in January 1997:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original]We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
 
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

There is a serious matter on the table, to be addressed in the context that there is now a significant empirically grounded challenge to the claim that blind chance forces and mechanical necessity can account for the world of life. And, that reminds us to mention that the co-founder of the theory of evolution from 1869 on argued for intelligent evolution, specifically publishing his views at length in The World of Life. Which, is still a powerful argument that that world is “a manifestation of Creative Power, Directive Mind and Ultimate Purpose.”

Hey, let’s add a vid:

For instance, here — with simplified paragraphing — is a comment in Wallace’s preface:

. . . the most prominent feature of my book is that I enter into a popular yet critical examination of those underlying fundamental problems which Darwin purposely excluded from his works as being beyond the scope of his enquiry.

Such are, the nature and causes of Life itself ; and more especially of its most fundamental and mysterious powers growth and reproduction. I first endeavour to show (in Chapter XIV.) by a care-ful consideration of the structure of the bird’s feather; of the marvellous transformations of the higher insects ; and, more especially of the highly elaborated wing-scales of the Lepidoptera (as easily accessible examples of what is going on in every part of the structure of every living thing), the absolute necessity for an organising and directive Life-Principle in order to account for the very possibility of these complex outgrowths.

I argue, that they necessarily imply first, a Creative Power, which so constituted matter as to render these marvels possible ; next, a directive Mind which is demanded at every step of what we term growth, and often look upon as so simple and natural a process as to require no explanation ; and, lastly, an ultimate Purpose, in the very existence of the whole vast life-world in all its long course of evolution throughout the eons of geological time.

This Purpose, which alone throws light on many of the mysteries of its mode of evolution, I hold to be the development of Man, the one crowning product of the whole cosmic process of  life-development ; the only being which can to some extent comprehend nature; which can perceive and trace out her modes of action ; which can appreciate the hidden forces and motions everywhere at work, and can deduce from them a supreme and over-ruling Mind as their necessary cause.

For those who accept some such view as I have indicated, I show (in Chapters XV. and XVI.) how strongly it is sup-ported and enforced by a long series of facts and co-relations which we can hardly look upon as all purely accidental coincidences. Such are the infinitely varied products of living things which serve man’s purposes and man’s alone not only by supplying his material wants, and by gratifying his higher tastes and emotions, but as rendering possible many of those advances in the arts and in science which we claim to be the highest proofs of his superiority to the brutes, as well as of his advancing civilisation.

From a consideration of these better-known facts I proceed (in Chapter XVII.) to an exposition of the mystery of cell-growth ; to a consideration of the elements in their special relation to the earth itself and to the life-world ; while in the last chapter I endeavour to show the purpose of that law of diversity which seems to pervade the whole material Universe.

In short, Darwin’s co-founder — and a man who was at least as learned on the substantial evidence as Darwin was — plainly argued at book length with copious evidence, that the evidence on the ground strongly points to design and purpose even within an evolutionary frame. Brushing the challenge off off by pointing to Darwin’s book, fails the giggle test.

So, here is the challenge, placed before the Darwinist (and similar), Blind Watchmaker Thesis objectors to design theory; especially those at TSZ:

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here —  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

And BTW, I am making this offer without consulting with the blog owner or others, I am sure they would welcome a serious response . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

That challenge is on the table. In truth, it has always been implicitly on the table. For, as I went on to note on Sept 23:

Now, at any time, in essentially any thread at UD any serious and civil design theory objector could have submitted such an essay, breaking it up into a multi part comment if desired . . .

And, it is quite clear that if there were a cogent, empirically well-grounded blind watchmaker thesis account of the origins of the world of life, there would be no design theory movement in biology.

(There would still be a serious design argument in cosmology, but that is a different matter. That does, however, show that strictly speaking design theory has no need to make its case in the world of life; it is because of the blatant weight of the evidence that there is a design movement on phenomena in the world of life.)

So, there you have it, there is a challenge officially on the table.

Let us see if any of the many objectors to design theory at TSZ or elsewhere — I would even accept a parallel post and discussion here and at TSZ (though, no, I will not be commenting there if that is done) — will be willing to step up to the plate. END

Comments
Jerad, There isn't any "now I'm getting it" as I have understood that for decades. And what is your evidence that natural selection got rid of the dinosaurs? I have heard different stories but never one that included natural selection.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
11:04 AM
11
11
04
AM
PDT
Jerad:
Well, natural selection got rid of the dinosaurs. And the trilobites. And lots and lots of other extinct species. It doesn’t sound very random to me.
really. and you know that it was natural selection that done it? So if I go out and kill a deer, that is natural selection, because the dear didn't survive?Mung
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
Joe (297),
Natural selection is a result. It doesn’t do anything. It is not a designer mimic. No one can predict what will be selected for at any point in time- dennett- no one knows what mutation will occur at any point in time. And fitness is an after-the-fact assessment.
Mutations are random, so you agree. Fitness is after the fact since no one knows what the environmental pressures will be or what variation will arise.
What is good for one generation may be detrimental to the next.
Absolutely. Now you're getting it!!
As I said natural selection is as nonrandom as birdshot from a sawed-off shotgun. And compared to a 30/06 that is very random.
Well, natural selection got rid of the dinosaurs. And the trilobites. And lots and lots of other extinct species. It doesn't sound very random to me.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
10:50 AM
10
10
50
AM
PDT
keiths:
Contrast that with the hypothesis of unguided evolution.
What hypothesis? You have failed to provide one.
We observe unguided evolution operating in the present.
Breaking things and causing deformities. And never constructing things. Not exactly what you need.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
Nope, we do not construct nested hierarchies based on the history. Zachriel:
Nor are we. We are constructing a nested hierarchy based on traits.
Again, what citeria, ie what traits? What is the nested hierarchy? Define the levels and sets, please.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
Natural selection is a result. It doesn't do anything. It is not a designer mimic. No one can predict what will be selected for at any point in time- dennett- no one knows what mutation will occur at any point in time. And fitness is an after-the-fact assessment. What is good for one generation may be detrimental to the next. As I said natural selection is as nonrandom as birdshot from a sawed-off shotgun. And compared to a 30/06 that is very random.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PDT
Joe (294):
Umm “the less fit” are just those who reproduce less. And that changes from generation to genration and from day to day.
Absolutely. Or don't reproduce at all. And it does change all the time.
Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets.
As I said, I would not have used the phrase 'natural selection'. And Provine is pointing out that the phrase is liable to be misunderstood. But he's not saying 'natural selection' is random.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
09:20 AM
9
09
20
AM
PDT
By what criteria? Zachriel:
The criteria would depend on the particulars. It turns out those particulars depend on the history.
Nope, we do not construct nested hierarchies based on the history. If you think otherwise please provide a valid reference. but we know you won’t…Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
Jerad:
But, in a sense, nature IS ‘selecting’ by killing off those who are less fit as a general rule.
Umm "the less fit" are just those who reproduce less. And that changes from generation to genration and from day to day. But anyway- chew on this: The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, 1971), reissued in 2001 by William Provine:
Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets. (pp. 199-200)
Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
09:07 AM
9
09
07
AM
PDT
I guess there’s a lot of dimwits out there then.
I second that!Mung
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
09:04 AM
9
09
04
AM
PDT
Joe (289):
With natural selection there isn’t any choosing nor selecting. Your references pertain to things that are chosen or selected.
I would not have used the term 'natural selection' myself. I prefer 'effects of environmental pressures'. But most people know what it means. But, in a sense, nature IS 'selecting' by killing off those who are less fit as a general rule. Some individuals are 'selected'/survive and have offspring. Some don't. The survivors are a selection or sample of the whole population. A non-random sample.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
08:50 AM
8
08
50
AM
PDT
Joe (287):
They sure as heck are NOT using it wrt natural selection being non-random. THAT is what you need to provide. Because if your use is correct it is meaningless. It’s like saying birdshot from a sawed-off shotgun is nonrandom because all the pellets will end up somewhere in front of the shooter
From UC Berkeley's Understanding Evolution website http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_32 "At the opposite end scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random-but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don't. Natural selection is NOT random!" From Wikipedia: "Natural selection is the gradual, non-random process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution. The term "natural selection" was popularized by Charles Darwin who intended it to be compared with artificial selection, what we now call selective breeding." From http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_natural_selection_not_random "Natural selection acts on the genetic diversity of a population, where the best traits for survival and reproduction increase in frequency over time. Since natural selection pushes a population's traits in an advantageous direction, it's not random but rather predictable, since we know its purpose." And many, many more.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
08:44 AM
8
08
44
AM
PDT
KF (285):
Ar you aware of CD’s discussion in which he looked at how a 1% difference in odds of survival per generation will shift population?
Not aware but it sounds plausible. Given enough generations.
Here is a defn of a random variable courtesy that source speaking against interest, Wiki:
I know there are lots of definitions of random and randomness but it's quite common in the sciences to talk about a random sample or selection being one where every outcome is equally likely.
Differential reproductive success is plainly shaped by all sorts of chance and uncorrelated chains of cause and effect, the issue is that the “fittest” are held to be more likely to reproduce, on whatever grounds.
Not on whatever grounds. In particular environmental niches. That's part of the point: when the environmental pressures change or you look at a different location who is "fitter" changes. That's why there's no palm trees in the Arctic or polar bears in Florida. Or fish walking through my back yard. Fish descendants do walk through my backyard though. Had to ditch the gills first.
As for the dinosaurs the conventional wisdom is an asteroid impact broke their dominance, allowing the mammals running around at their feet for eons to take over.
Exactly, the climate changed and the mammals were "fitter", i.e. better able to survive in the new environment. Natural selection is fickle. But not random.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
08:37 AM
8
08
37
AM
PDT
Jerad, With natural selection there isn't any choosing nor selecting. Your references pertain to things that are chosen or selected.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
Zachriel:
A is a subset of B if every element of A is also an element of B.
By what criteria? I can make anything I want into a set. Which means I can form subsets from that. It does not mean it is a nested hierarchy.
If you were to start with a single sequence of significant length, and subject the sequence to replication with variation, and assuming reasonable mutation rates, then it would form an objective fit to a single nested hierarchy, and you would be able to reconstruct the lines of descent with reasonable accuracy.
By what criteria?
Hierarchical levels: levels are populated by entities whose properties characterize the level in question. A given entity may belong to any number of levels, depending on the criteria used to link levels above and below. For example, an individual human being may be a member of the level i) human, ii) primate, iii) organism or iv) host of a parasite, depending on the relationship of the level in question to those above and below. Level of organization: this type of level fits into its hierarchy by virtue of set of definitions that lock the level in question to those above and below. For example, a biological population level is an aggregate of entities from the organism level of organization, but it is only so by definition. There is no particular scale involved in the population level of organization, in that some organisms are larger than some populations, as in the case of skin parasites. Level of observation: this type of level fits into its hierarchy by virtue of relative scaling considerations. For example, the host of a skin parasite represents the context for the population of parasites; it is a landscape, even though the host may be seen as belonging to a level of organization, organism, that is lower than the collection of parasites, a population. The criterion for observation: when a system is observed, there are two separate considerations. One is the spatiotemporal scale at which the observations are made. The other is the criterion for observation, which defines the system in the foreground away from all the rest in the background. The criterion for observation uses the types of parts and their relationships to each other to characterize the system in the foreground. If criteria for observation are linked together in an asymmetric fashion, then the criteria lead to levels of organization. Otherwise, criteria for observation merely generate isolated classes. The ordering of levels: there are several criteria whereby other levels reside above lower levels. These criteria often run in parallel, but sometimes only one or a few of them apply. Upper levels are above lower levels by virtue of: 1) being the context of, 2) offering constraint to, 3) behaving more slowly at a lower frequency than, 4) being populated by entities with greater integrity and higher bond strength than, and 5), containing and being made of – lower levels. Nested and non-nested hierarchies: nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. On the other hand, the general at the top of a military command does not consist of his soldiers and so the military command is a non-nested hierarchy with regard to the soldiers in the army. Pecking orders and a food chains are also non-nested hierarchies.
Apply that to your scenario and get back to us with your nested hierarchy.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
08:26 AM
8
08
26
AM
PDT
They sure as heck are NOT using it wrt natural selection being non-random. THAT is what you need to provide. Because if your use is correct it is meaningless. It's like saying birdshot from a sawed-off shotgun is nonrandom because all the pellets will end up somewhere in front of the shooter.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
Joe (284):
Please provide a valid reference that says that biologists use “random” in the sense you say and in no other way.
It's usually linked with the term sample: Heres a definition of random sample from http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/IB_Biology/Communities "A sample where every individual in a population has an equal chance of being chosen." You'll find more examples from mathematics and statistics since that's where it comes from. But others use that definition as well. Investors for example (from http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/simple-random-sample.asp#axzz2965g3EWG) "A subset of a statistical population in which each member of the subset has an equal probability of being chosen. A simple random sample is meant to be an unbiased representation of a group. An example of a simple random sample would be a group of 25 employees chosen out of a hat from a company of 250 employees. In this case, the population is all 250 employees, and the sample is random because each employee has an equal chance of being chosen." Here's one from the University of Texas (http://www.ma.utexas.edu/users/mks/statmistakes/SRS.html) "A simple random sample (SRS) of size n consists of n individuals from the population chosen in such a way that every set of n individuals has an equal chance to be the sample actually selected."
Only dimwits would use the word “random” in such a narrow sense.
I guess there's a lot of dimwits out there then. The second definition here of random: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/random "[O]f or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen." If natural selection was a random sample then every member of a population would have an equal chance of being selected. But they don't.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
Jerad Heading out the door. Ar you aware of CD's discussion in which he looked at how a 1% difference in odds of survival per generation will shift population? Here is a defn of a random variable courtesy that source speaking against interest, Wiki:
In probability and statistics, a random variable or stochastic variable is a variable whose value is subject to variations due to chance (i.e. randomness, in a mathematical sense). As opposed to other mathematical variables, a random variable conceptually does not have a single, fixed value (even if unknown); rather, it can take on a set of possible different values, each with an associated probability. A random variable's possible values might represent the possible outcomes of a yet-to-be-performed experiment or an event that has not happened yet, or the potential values of a past experiment or event whose already-existing value is uncertain (e.g. as a result of incomplete information or imprecise measurements). They may also conceptually represent either the results of an "objectively" random process (e.g. rolling a die), or the "subjective" randomness that results from incomplete knowledge of a quantity. The meaning of the probabilities assigned to the potential values of a random variable is not part of probability theory itself, but instead related to philosophical arguments over the interpretation of probability. The mathematics works the same regardless of the particular interpretation in use.
That should be clear enough, never mind a lot of bland declarations to the contrary (even at Wiki). Differential reproductive success is plainly shaped by all sorts of chance and uncorrelated chains of cause and effect, the issue is that the "fittest" are held to be more likely to reproduce, on whatever grounds. As for the dinosaurs the conventional wisdom is an asteroid impact broke their dominance, allowing the mammals running around at their feet for eons to take over. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
07:53 AM
7
07
53
AM
PDT
Jerad, Please provide a valid reference that says that biologists use "random" in the sense you say and in no other way. Only dimwits would use the word "random" in such a narrow sense.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
06:57 AM
6
06
57
AM
PDT
Joe (281):
Well the ToE is neither science nor mathematics. But anyway natural selection does not stop being random just because you can picjk whatever definition suits your needs.
I'm suggesting that if you're going to discuss topics like randomness and complexity with people you should learn how they use those terms. How scientists use those terms. How can you be sure what Dr Dembski and Dr Behe are saying if you're not conversant with their definitions? Does Dr Behe think natural selection is random? Failing that it falls upon you to state up front how you define those terms. Otherwise people will misunderstand you.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
06:54 AM
6
06
54
AM
PDT
With your “definition” you need to define hierarchical ordering and nested sets.
A nested set is one which is a subset of another.
What makes it a subset? And why are YOU responding in the wrong thread?Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
06:49 AM
6
06
49
AM
PDT
It fits the definition.
Not the specific scientific/mathematical definition.
Well the ToE is neither science nor mathematics. But anyway natural selection does not stop being random just because you can picjk whatever definition suits your needs.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
06:44 AM
6
06
44
AM
PDT
KF (266):
are you aware that the NS criterion is that the odds of survival and reproduction shift? NS does embed a significant chance component, it is not merely and simply deterministic.
The odds have shifted many times. Otherwise we'd be dodging dinosaurs. The odds shift from region to region, from season to season and certainly over the eons. Life forms shift the odds too as the biological arms race ratchets up. Not purely deterministic but certainly not random. As I said, there are clearly random eddies in the current.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
06:35 AM
6
06
35
AM
PDT
Joe (278)
It fits the definition.
Not the specific scientific/mathematical definition.
Cuz YOU say so?
Nope. A couple centuries of mathematicians and statisticians do. And every textbook on probability and statistics. Have a look at one and see.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
Jerad:
Whatever or whoever is good enough is not random.
It fits the definition.
But when talking about random events like rolling a dice or selecting from a population then random means that every outcome is equally likely.
Cuz YOU say so?Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
06:07 AM
6
06
07
AM
PDT
Joe (272):
Jerad, whatever is good enough survives to reproduce. How is that not random?
Whatever or whoever is good enough is not random. Some are not good enough . . . not as fast or as strong or as clever, etc. When some have a greater chance than others, i.e. not equal chances, then the selection process is not random. And some are stronger, faster, etc because there is variation in the population. Joe (274) Certainly randomness can mean different things in different contexts. But when talking about random events like rolling a dice or selecting from a population then random means that every outcome is equally likely. That is: there is no preference for certain outcomes. Like there would be with a determined or designed system.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
05:54 AM
5
05
54
AM
PDT
Kf (270): Yup, yup, yup. I was just trying to make sure that when talking about things like randomness and complexity that everyone makes an effort to use the terms as they're defined by the people doing work in those fields. Dr Dembski has a PhD in mathematics so when he uses a word like random then he is using it in a particular way.Jerad
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
05:43 AM
5
05
43
AM
PDT
keiths and the rest of the TSZ ilk keep blathering on about nested hierarchies yet refuse to tell us what they think a nested hierarchy is. Zachriel did chime in but that "definition" was too vague to be of any use. OTOH I have provided a valid and references definition of nested hierarchy. Unfortunately I doubt any of the TSZ ilk will read it or understand it if they do.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
04:50 AM
4
04
50
AM
PDT
Jerad:
Random means every possible outcome is equally likely.
Not necessarilly. Wikipedia on randomness:
Randomness means different things in various fields. Commonly, it means lack of pattern or predictability in events. The Oxford English Dictionary defines "random" as "Having no definite aim or purpose; not sent or guided in a particular direction; made, done, occurring, etc., without method or conscious choice; haphazard." This concept of randomness suggests a non-order or non-coherence in a sequence of symbols or steps, such that there is no intelligible pattern or combination.
Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
04:39 AM
4
04
39
AM
PDT
Allan Miller:
Evolution’s explanation for universality would be Common Descent of all modern organisms from a common ancestor that had broadly the ‘universal’ code already in place.
Evolution is silent on the OoL which means there could have been multiple life-forms with multiple codes and evolutionism would be OK with that. Common descent still cannot explain all of the physiological and anatomical differences observed. No way to test the claim that changes to genomes can account for all the other changes required.Joe
October 12, 2012
October
10
Oct
12
12
2012
04:22 AM
4
04
22
AM
PDT
1 8 9 10 11 12 20

Leave a Reply