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UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE

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On Sept 23rd, I put up an essay challenge as captioned, primarily to objecting commenter Jerad.

As at October 2nd, he has definitively said: no.

Joe informs us that Zachriel has tried to brush it aside:

Try Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859). It’s a bit dated and longer than 6,000 words, (the 6th edition is 190,000 words), but Darwin considered it just a long abstract, and it still makes for a powerful argument.

This is, frankly, a “don’t bother me” brush-off; telling in itself, as a definitive, successful answer would have momentous impact on this blog.

Zachriel’s response reminds me, all too strikingly, of the cogency of  what Philip Johnson had to say in reply to Lewontin’s claims in his NYRB article in January 1997:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original]We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
 
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

There is a serious matter on the table, to be addressed in the context that there is now a significant empirically grounded challenge to the claim that blind chance forces and mechanical necessity can account for the world of life. And, that reminds us to mention that the co-founder of the theory of evolution from 1869 on argued for intelligent evolution, specifically publishing his views at length in The World of Life. Which, is still a powerful argument that that world is “a manifestation of Creative Power, Directive Mind and Ultimate Purpose.”

Hey, let’s add a vid:

For instance, here — with simplified paragraphing — is a comment in Wallace’s preface:

. . . the most prominent feature of my book is that I enter into a popular yet critical examination of those underlying fundamental problems which Darwin purposely excluded from his works as being beyond the scope of his enquiry.

Such are, the nature and causes of Life itself ; and more especially of its most fundamental and mysterious powers growth and reproduction. I first endeavour to show (in Chapter XIV.) by a care-ful consideration of the structure of the bird’s feather; of the marvellous transformations of the higher insects ; and, more especially of the highly elaborated wing-scales of the Lepidoptera (as easily accessible examples of what is going on in every part of the structure of every living thing), the absolute necessity for an organising and directive Life-Principle in order to account for the very possibility of these complex outgrowths.

I argue, that they necessarily imply first, a Creative Power, which so constituted matter as to render these marvels possible ; next, a directive Mind which is demanded at every step of what we term growth, and often look upon as so simple and natural a process as to require no explanation ; and, lastly, an ultimate Purpose, in the very existence of the whole vast life-world in all its long course of evolution throughout the eons of geological time.

This Purpose, which alone throws light on many of the mysteries of its mode of evolution, I hold to be the development of Man, the one crowning product of the whole cosmic process of  life-development ; the only being which can to some extent comprehend nature; which can perceive and trace out her modes of action ; which can appreciate the hidden forces and motions everywhere at work, and can deduce from them a supreme and over-ruling Mind as their necessary cause.

For those who accept some such view as I have indicated, I show (in Chapters XV. and XVI.) how strongly it is sup-ported and enforced by a long series of facts and co-relations which we can hardly look upon as all purely accidental coincidences. Such are the infinitely varied products of living things which serve man’s purposes and man’s alone not only by supplying his material wants, and by gratifying his higher tastes and emotions, but as rendering possible many of those advances in the arts and in science which we claim to be the highest proofs of his superiority to the brutes, as well as of his advancing civilisation.

From a consideration of these better-known facts I proceed (in Chapter XVII.) to an exposition of the mystery of cell-growth ; to a consideration of the elements in their special relation to the earth itself and to the life-world ; while in the last chapter I endeavour to show the purpose of that law of diversity which seems to pervade the whole material Universe.

In short, Darwin’s co-founder — and a man who was at least as learned on the substantial evidence as Darwin was — plainly argued at book length with copious evidence, that the evidence on the ground strongly points to design and purpose even within an evolutionary frame. Brushing the challenge off off by pointing to Darwin’s book, fails the giggle test.

So, here is the challenge, placed before the Darwinist (and similar), Blind Watchmaker Thesis objectors to design theory; especially those at TSZ:

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here —  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

And BTW, I am making this offer without consulting with the blog owner or others, I am sure they would welcome a serious response . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

That challenge is on the table. In truth, it has always been implicitly on the table. For, as I went on to note on Sept 23:

Now, at any time, in essentially any thread at UD any serious and civil design theory objector could have submitted such an essay, breaking it up into a multi part comment if desired . . .

And, it is quite clear that if there were a cogent, empirically well-grounded blind watchmaker thesis account of the origins of the world of life, there would be no design theory movement in biology.

(There would still be a serious design argument in cosmology, but that is a different matter. That does, however, show that strictly speaking design theory has no need to make its case in the world of life; it is because of the blatant weight of the evidence that there is a design movement on phenomena in the world of life.)

So, there you have it, there is a challenge officially on the table.

Let us see if any of the many objectors to design theory at TSZ or elsewhere — I would even accept a parallel post and discussion here and at TSZ (though, no, I will not be commenting there if that is done) — will be willing to step up to the plate. END

Comments
Well, I thought I'd drop in and see if anyone has accepted the challenge yet. No takers eh?Mung
October 11, 2012
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To Allan Miller- Seeing that you are so eager to say I am ignorant of nested hierarchies, I will ask you to provide a valid and referenced definition of nested hierarchy and tell me how my claims are wrong wrt it. Linnean taxonomy is NOT based on ancestor-descendant relationships, but on defined characteristics. Linnean taxonomy is the nested hierarchy observed and he constructed with a common design in mind. All evos did was steal his idea and make it seem as if it supported them. Any classification based on ancestor-descendent relationships, as descent with modification would be, would be a non-nested hierarchy. Clades form nested hierarchies, again, based on defined traits- as in all these organisms share x number of traits so they must be related because we have already concluded that is so. However say the starting population gave rise to a population that lost on of the defining traits? That is totally OK with the theory of evolution, that over time traits can become lost- evolution does NOT have a direction. It would be a descendent but not included in the Clade because it lacks a defining characteristic of that Clade. Denton went over all this in "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis"- so don't act as if I am making all this up. I am not the only one to point out the folly of nested hierarchies wrt evolutionism. You can run your mouth all you want. I can support my claims and all you can do is falsely accuse me and never support yours.Joe
October 11, 2012
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Jerad: I see:
I can certainly see why you would like the OoL issue addressed but, as we both know, it’s not possible at this time to be specific. There are various hypothesis but there is no consensus and certainly nothing has come close to being proven or even more than plausible. So I don’t think anyone could meet your challenge.
The OOL issue is pivotal. If it cannot be addressed on decisive evidence then there is no basis for making the sort of claims about blind watchmaker molecules to Man evolution that are commonly made in the name of science. KFkairosfocus
October 11, 2012
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and critical rationalist chimes in from TSZ:
Joe is denying that Darwinism actually created the knowledge of how to build organisms by claiming it existed in some form or another at the outset.
Deny? So sorry but I cannot deny that which there isn't any evidence for. So perhaps you should get to work, find some evidence for teh claim and then we will see.Joe
October 11, 2012
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KF (235, 236): Thank you for taking the time to comment on my very sketchy outline of what I would say were I to try and meet your challenge. I'll let everyone else read it and do their own comparing and contrasting. I can certainly see why you would like the OoL issue addressed but, as we both know, it's not possible at this time to be specific. There are various hypothesis but there is no consensus and certainly nothing has come close to being proven or even more than plausible. So I don't think anyone could meet your challenge. At one point you say
,,,there is again an absence of empirical observation of the incremental forms that are supposed to have formed the continuum of forms,,,
We will never be able to go back and see what actually did happen so I assume you'd be okay with at least some kind of experimental scenario. And I think you say as much elsewhere. You did talk about defending Darwinism (I'm paraphrasing obviously) and, since evolutionary theory doesn't address OoL, I did try and do that on it's own. I do agree that there are differences between the trees you get depending on what core criteria you use but I disagree that any of the differences are fatal to the theory. I also disagree with pointing to gaps in the fossil record and using absence of evidence as being evidence of absence. In a murder case if I can prove someone was at the scene I don't necessarily need to be able to establish how they got there to get a conviction. We can make strong deductions even without ever phase being completely clear. Anyway, clearly I will not be able to give you what you're asking for. But thanks for having a look at a meagre start/attempt. Hope the plane crash crisis is settling out. In small countries you're never too far removed from a tragedy.Jerad
October 11, 2012
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PS: Dr Hunter marks up Dr Noor's first lessons here, and as is headlined at UD this morning also. The want of a cogent, empirical evidence grounded answer to the challenge I have been outlining is painfully evident.kairosfocus
October 11, 2012
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Onlookers: Today is day 18. This morning, I saw a claim from Jerad that his remarks to UB at 86 above constituted at least a rough outline response. I have marked up as just above, to show why this is not an adequate response to the key issues and to the challenge that pivots on these issues. Let me remind those who would respond or claim elsewhere or here at UD that an adequate response has been given, just what is needed for an adequate response, apart from a reasonable essay structure:
Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here – on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance. It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face.
There is a very good reason why the challenge focusses on the root of the tree[s] of life, as that is where the origin of FSCO/I by blind chance and mechanical necessity is most starkly confronted by evidence, with no reasonable out by claiming the wonderful powers of natural selection. Unless an essay answers that on good empirical evidence, for good reason, it is a non starter. KFkairosfocus
October 11, 2012
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Jerad: I see your claim that 86 above is at least an outline level response to the 6000 word essay challenge, summarising the view of the experts. My immediate concern is from the beginning, where you speak in terms of 150 years and the modern synthesis. However, the challenge I put gives pride of place to OOL, for good reason; and it is also the case that the co-founder of evolutionary theory from 1869 on increasingly repudiated materialistic accounts that boil down to the blind watchmaker thesis. That is why from the first I did not take your remarks as a response on the main subject, but a response to UB. For excellent reason of a drastic difference in scope. Be that as it may, let me mark up your response to UB, presumably on OO body plan level macro-evolution: _______________ >>The mechanisms behind the modern evolutionary synthesis have been described and elucidated for over 150 years by many people much brighter than myself. [a --> The focus you set is ducking the first, central challenge: OOL, which in part has to account for the origin of the code based, von Neumann self replicator. Before any proposed mechanism of chance variation and differential reproductive success leading to descent with empirically grounded unlimited modification of form [CV + DRS -> DWEGUM], could be reasonable.] Not much point in me going over it all again if you haven’t bought their arguments. [b --> the issue is not consensus and the like but warrant. And, failure to cogently address the root of the claimed tree of life undermines all assertions beyond that point.]
[UB?} And if that mechanism is not available, then on what evidentiary ground did you base your conclusion? Is it as I suspected in my earlier comment – an assumed conclusion in the face of material evidence to the contrary? What material facts do you suggest we use to teach assumed conclusions to science students?
If you look at the biogeographic record, as Darwin and Wallace did, you realise that there are species and genus and families of life forms that only exist in certain locations on the planet. [c --> Descent with variation to the family or equivalent level is well within the body plan origin level. Many YEC thinkers take the family to be about the level of the baraminological [?] kind. So, you are at best dealing with adaptation of varieties within a body plan.] It is possible to begin to construct a tree of descent relationships, a tree of life as it were, from looking at how life forms seeming spread across the planet and changed and adapted to their local environments. [d --> This takes you to the level of discussing small branches and twigs, rather than an overall tree.] If you look at life forms’ morphologies you can also build a similar tree of life. [e --> Ducks the multiplicities of trees that are not consistent with one another, once the molecular and gentic similarities are used rather than superficial morphology. In addition for instance the issue of mosaic creatures and convergence on things like the camera eye -- was it 40 origins of the eye or something like that -- as well as say the close convergence in form of marsupial and placental forms come up as significant issues.] Not exactly the same I grant you. And not complete either. The fossil record is a partial ledger of some of the life forms that lived a long time ago. [f --> Ducks the issue of the Cambrian life revo, which indicates the rise of top level body plans by the dozens, right at the beginning of the story for multicellular animal life forms.] We can date the fossils and add them to our morphological tree of life extending it to over 500 million years in the past. [g --> Ducks the Cambrian issue again. Also the multiple, conflicting trees not to mention the root of the tree of life, the pivotal issue. Fails as well to notice that common design as well as common descent can account for a tree-like pattern, with cross links leading to somewhat of a mesh. Indeed, libraries of components re-used in diverse designs can easily account for all that we see. Also, notice, there is a huge gap on what Gould points out is the dominant pattern in the fossil record: appearance, stasis of form, disappearance. ISLANDS of form, in short.] Also, the locations of the fossils add to the geo-diversity picture. [h --> Only by extrapolation from variation within limits.] Darwin also looked at the ability of breeders in recorded history to modify and change the morphology of plants and animals. j --> Breeding by artificial selection is mostly on Mendelian variation, where characteristics tracing to multiple genes can show wide variation but with limits. Limits to breeding are a well known phenomenon. Also, this is intelligent design. yes, I know Darwin made much use of this as an analogy to his favoured Natural Selection, but in fact he was using ID as a model for the opposite of design, and mendelian variation as a model for mutations. What has simply not been empirically demonstrated per observations is a continuum of incremental variations sufficient to create new body plans, especially from a unicellular organism upwards. Where the evidence of the Cambrian fossils is of appearance of top level forms. Darwin predicted/expected that the then allegedly scanty record would be filled in, but now with 1/4+ mn fossil species [which may itself be a problem] and millions or billions of specimens int eh museum or field, the early pattern has been abundantly supported: discrete forms. He knew the underlying variations were inheritable and that that made plausible [k --> Telling word, especially given the above.] the idea that the changes seen in the morphological tree of life as extended into the past and viewed geographically were part of a continuum, not isolated life forms. [l --> Ducks the evidence of discrete forms and of top down body plan origins.] For 100 years new fossil discoveries and new species discoveries enabled biologists to refine their life trees and add new branches. Sometimes new subsets were discovered. But nothing pointed to a separate tree. [m --> More correctly, there was discovered a range of forms that could be fitted together in a tree-like pattern, but without the clear warrant of incremental variations at body plan level, parallel to say circumpolar gulls or the like. The tips are there but the explanatory, incremental bottom up continuum of forms forming the branches and trunk and root are missing. In short, you have been given a selective picture and interpretation, not the whole story warts and all.] It all fit within certain limits of our knowledge. There was nothing contradictory. [n --> False. The genetic and molecular level trees dramatically conflict with one another and with the one composed on gross form. You have been presented with a composed, artificially harmonious picture.] When we gained the ability to look inside the heritable mechanism we found a whole new way of drawing our tree of life. In fact, many different ways based on which chunk of DNA we focused on. [o --> And, what did these tell you about the diverse and conflicting trees that emerged? Or the pattern of uniform molecular distance in different categories of life for say proteins?] (Not just genes mind you, the universal genetic code, transposons, ERVs, pseudo genes, broken genes, number of chromosomes, it all points in the same direction.) While each of those trees differed slightly from each other [p --> Minimisation of serious conflict, to form a neat harmonious picture. this is indoctrination, not education.] and from the morphological and geographic trees the main branches and divisions mostly held. [q --> Fails to explain that there is in fact now a proposed mesh at the root, or that there is again an absence of empirical observation of the incremental forms that are supposed to have formed the continuum of forms from the unicellular ancestor to the major body plans and onward to the forms at the tips of branches and twigs that we observe. In short an overly rosy picture is being painted.] The new knowledge was concordant with the old knowledge. [r --> False assertion, painting an overly rosy picture and papering over material conflicts. Notice, this ducks the precise question posed for the essay of providing empirical warrant for the structure of the tree and reconciliation of the diversity of trees once molecular similarities were used to provide alleged reconstructions of the history of life.] All lines of evidence were giving the same indication: life on earth arose by common descent with variation. [s --> Force fitting into an artificial harmony that suppresses material conflict. That is why the essay called for specific, empirical observation grounded evidence of the claimed root of the tree of life and for similar evidence based reconciliation that shows the incremental emergence of forms and the reconciliation of materially conflicting molecular trees.] In short the modern evolutionary model of how life arose on this planet is coherent, self-consistent (within knowledge bounds), agrees with other sciences like chemistry and physics, has great explanatory power, is supported by multiple lines of independent evidence and does not include extra assumptions or special pleading. [t --> False, based on an imposed artificial harmony that fails to come to grips with material conflicts and gaps.] Nothing outside of known and observed processes are required. And we have observed many smaller steps occurring. Our big jigsaw picture is not complete by any means but every new piece we find eventually makes sense in the bigger picture once we figure out where it goes. [t --> A creedal assertion, not an empirically warranted claim.] As far as I can see, it’s the most parsimonious and powerful model going. It’s simple and elegant and it works. Just like a good theorem in mathematics. [u --> Again, an artificial harmony that papers over material conflicts and gaps is not cogent, but can be very persuasive to those who do not know about the limitations, gaps and conflicts.] I’m sure this mini-essay has flaws and some badly worded sections. And I’ve probably left some things out. But I just made it up rather quickly so be nice please. And remember, you did ask. >> _______________ Jerad, I hope you see why I insisted that the account6 needs to start from the root on up for the essay. By ruling a convenient datum line that does not force the addressing of the source of FSCO/I, much can be made out to be wonderfully reasonable. But once the root is a problem that the only empirical basis for explanation is design, then we can see from then on that design has to be on the table, not implicitly excluded by default of assumed power of mechanisms that is in fact not there. No wonder, UB replied as follows at 87 (which you do not seem to have taken on board):
UB: Then by all means, please provide the evidence-laden unguided mechanism which has been shown to resolve the origin of the iterative system of symbols which Darwinian evolution is dependent upon. Such demonstrations are what empirical science is about, correct? Jerad: The mechanisms behind the modern evolutionary synthesis have been described and elucidated for over 150 years by many people much brighter than myself. Not much point in me going over it all again if you haven’t bought their arguments. This has nothing to do with the modern evolutionary synthesis. MET is silent on the origin of the biosemiosis. It cannot logically be the source of the material conditions required for its own existence, unless you believe that something which does not exist can cause something to happen. With this answer, you did nothing but punt away inconvenient evidence. Welcome to a real time exposition of your pseudo-scientific ideology.
I suggest you may find it helpful to read the IOSE units here and here, on OOL and OO body plans; which I think will help you see what you were not told by those who taught you, many of whom may not know better themselves. KFkairosfocus
October 11, 2012
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To Keiths (at TSZ): Quite the opposite. I don’t make any assumptions about how the Designer would act. He has trillions of options open to him, and he could choose any one of them, regardless of whether it produced an objective nested hierarchy. You are making the assumption that the designer "has trillions of options open to him" (why?), and that he "could choose any one of them" (how do you know that? are you an expert about the designer's free will?), "regardless of whether it produced an objective nested hierarchy" (so you know how many of the options would produce that, and that the designer has no reason to prefer one kind of option to another one; again, how do you know that?). Those are a lot of assumptions. It’s the evidence that tells us that the objective nested hierarchy exists. Fine. 1a) Out of the trillions of possibilities, unguided evolution predicts an objective nested hierarchy; we see an objective nested hiearchy; the prediction is successful, and unguided evolution fits the evidence extremely well. It certainly fits the evidence of the hierarchy. But, unfortunately, it does not fit the evidence of the complex biological information. You are reasoning as though the hierarchy were the only evidence available. ID predicts neither an objective nested hierarchy, or the lack thereof; we see an objective nested hierarchy; It does nor predict necessarily the hierarchy, but it is perfectly compatible with it. What ID does predict is the complex functional information in the designed objects. ID proponents have to assume that the Designer chose to produce an objective nested hierarchy, Either chose, or had to. Because of specific restraints. which is exactly the same pattern that unguided evolution would have produced. No. It is simply the same pattern as any form of evolution, guided or unguided, would have produced if it had to work by modification of the existing beings, instead of having to create new beings from scratch each time. It is very obvious that the first option can be the best, or the only one, available to a designer if specific constraints on how the designer can act are present in the system. There is no successful prediction, and a completely unwarranted assumption. There is no prediction here, but there is a much more powerful prediction about complex functional information. And there is no assumptiom at all: we observe the evidence, we infer design (from complex functional cinformation), and we reasonably infer that the designer had specific, and definable, limjitations in how to act. Physical laws don’t require an objective nested hierarchy. The designer has to modify matter from consciousness, through some interface. We don't know how that interface works, and what its laws are. The real constraint is obviously how to implement the design in the material world. The simple explanation for the nested hierarchy is that it is easier for the designer to modify what already exists than to redo everything from scratch. Is that so difficult to understand? That suggests that your embrace of ID is not scientific. You are entitled to your opinion, however bizarre. Keep thinking about this, I think about many things, but I usually decide myself what to think about. Anyway, thank you for the kind suggestion. but try to do so with the attitude that you want to discover the truth, whatever that may be — even if the truth turns out to be uncomfortable. That is a very wise principle for thinking about anything, and I certainly can reciprocate the encouragement. P.S The UD side of the discussion is happening on this thread, so you might want to repost your comment there. I will copy this comment there too.gpuccio
October 11, 2012
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more dr boo-who:
And why doesn’t PaV, who clearly believes that the (unguided) theory of evolution makes testable predictions, tell Joe to shut up and learn what “testable” and “prediction” mean in relation to scientific hypotheses?
Why can't YOU just produce a testable hypothesis for unguided evolution, along with any predictions? Why are you being such a coward?
(I’m aware of the problem of turning this into too much of a “Joe” thread, but the predictions that various hypotheses make in relation to nested heirarchies are important to the subject of the O.P.).
Please define "nested hierarchy"- a valid referenced definituion, please. Then explain why we do NOT observe one with prokaryotes and why that isn't a problem for unguided evolution. So to sum up- Neither dr boo-who nor keiths understand nested hierarchies nor do they understand science. But they sure can spew with the best and whine when it doesn't go their way.Joe
October 11, 2012
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more keits spewage:
1. Bob is walking through the desert with his friend, a geologist. They come across what appears to be a dry streambed. After some thought, Bob states that every rock, pebble, grain of sand and silt particle was deliberately placed in its exact position by a Streambed Designer. His friend says “That’s ridiculous. This streambed has exactly the features we would expect to see if it was created by flowing water. Why invoke a Streambed Designer?” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?
I would have to visit the scene and examine it. You know conduct a scientific investigation
2. Bob is invited to the scene of an investigation by a friend who is an explosive forensics expert. They observe serious damage radiating out in all directions from a central point, decreasing with distance, as if an explosion had taken place. Bob’s friend performs some tests and finds large amounts of explosive residue. Bob says, “Somebody went to a lot of trouble to make it look like there was an explosion here. They even planted explosive residue on the scene! Of course, there wasn’t really an explosion.” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?
I would have to visit the scene and examine it. You know conduct a scientific investigation.
3. Bob and another friend, an astronomer, observe the positions of the planets over several years. They determine that the planets are moving in ellipses, with the sun at one of the foci. Bob says, “Isn’t that amazing? The angels pushing the planets around are following exactly the paths that the planets would have followed if gravity had been acting on them!” The astronomer gives Bob a funny look and says “Maybe gravity is working on those planets, with no angels involved at all. Doesn’t that seem more likely to you?” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?
I would ask the astronomer where he pulled gravity from. Then sit back and watch him implode.
4. Bob is hanging out at the office of a friend who is an evolutionary biologist. The biologist shows Bob how the morphological and molecular data establish the phylogenetic tree of the 30 major taxa of life to an amazing accuracy of 38 decimal places. “There couldn’t be a better confirmation of unguided evolution,” the biologist says. “Don’t be ridiculous,” Bob replies. “All of those lifeforms were clearly designed. It’s just that the Designer chose to imitate unguided evolution, instead of picking one of the trillions of other options available to him.” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?
Phylogenetic and morphological data do not support any mechanism- I would tell the biologist he is FoS. I would then ask the biologist for a testable hypothesis for unguided evolution. Then sit back and watch HIM implode. And ponder this- if you are an evo who needs to make up such stupid stories then it is a given thet you have nothing but desperation. Nice job ace... .Joe
October 11, 2012
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keiths chokes:
Are there any ID supporters out there who can (and will) answer the following questions? 1. Do you agree that unguided evolution fits the data far better than ID does?
No. To date no one has produced a way to test unguided evolution.
3. If not, then identify a fatal flaw in my argument, and explain to us why it is a flaw. Be specific.
No testable hypotheses and no way to test its claims. For example how can we test teh claim that any bacterial flagellum evolved via accumulations of genetic accidents? Please be specific or you admit your position has nothing. BTW any time you want to ante up say $5,000 USD I will put my knowldge of nested hierarchies up against yours. Just let me know, coward.Joe
October 11, 2012
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dr boo-who spews:
Onlookers, what’s interesting here is that Joe’s fellow IDists do not point out Joe’s mistake when he claims that the (unguided) theory of evolution is untestable and does not contain testable hypotheses.
Onlookers notice that neither you and the TSZ ilk are too cowardly to produce a testable hypothesis for your position. THAT is what is very interesting.
He does this often, and he’s directly contradicting all of I.D’s important claims.
Which claim is that? I say you are lying, again, as usual.Joe
October 11, 2012
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KF (228): I'm not saying my comment (86) in this thread is what you're looking for but it was a quick attempt to present my view of the evidence in a very general sense and no one has commented on it.Jerad
October 10, 2012
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F/N: Anyone who has played animal, vegetable or mineral, will know that it is quite possible to make a nested hierarchy of the list above, once we have sufficient room to set up a case structure to frame a hierarchy. The objection is silly, and it is about a strawman distortion and distraction. Notice, how far we are from a serious answer to the essay challenge, with no takes as the day eighteen mark approaches. KFkairosfocus
October 10, 2012
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It predicts that we can make a nested hierarchy out of just about anything.
OK, let’s test that prediction … {a fish, a spoon, a bike, a tooth, the latest Muse album, my wife, a bag of carrots}
No Allan, not just anything you can pull from your [deleted, watch language, KF]. However for example I can make an objective nested hierarchy out of books in a library and the parts of a human body- I have seen the latter in a biology book.Joe
October 10, 2012
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dr boo-who:
There’s a correct one word answer, and it’s easy to work out if you understand what prediction means when applied to hypotheses.
That is what we have been waiting for- predictions that your position makes when applied to the testable hypotheses that no one seems to want to talk about. IOW it is clear that you do not understand the concept of what prediction means when applied to hypotheses. And it is a safe bet that you don't understand nested hierarchies. Maybe your position sez we will observe nested hierarchies when we do and we won't when we don't.Joe
October 10, 2012
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keiths:
The UD side of the discussion is happening on this thread, so you might want to repost your comment there.
What discussion? We're still waiting for you to present some of that massive amount of evidence for universal common descent you have, the existence of which is incompatible with ID. Once you do that, maybe we can discuss.Mung
October 10, 2012
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Patrick on October 10, 2012 at 7:06 pm said:
You have clearly articulated what the intelligent design creationists [--> A calculated slander, KF] at UD seem to understand intuitively — making testable claims must be avoided at all costs. [--> Another, it is clearly established that metrics of functionally specific complex info exist and that they are testable as to whether FSCI can be created by blind chance and mechanical necessity. Billions of test cases say, design only. Patrick is here setting up a gross strawman caricature. KF] They would rather turn their backs on the concept of CSI as described by Dembski, the hero of Dover [--> another falsehood and based on carrying forward a continuing misrepresentation. KF], than risk showing how to calculate it objectively. [--> A FOURTH willfully false misrepresentation, cf for instance here (noting the specific, biological cases in point and the associated general method), as P knows full well. KF.]
And you're a liar. But then, we already know that. I offered a few days ago to incorporate an algorithm into my program.
As long as there is confusion about what, if anything, they mean by CSI [--> the confusion is manufactured by objectors who do not wish to understand, and find any and all sorts of objections, latterly including to inductive reasoning and earlier to the canons of basic logic, such as the first principles of right reason starting with identity, non contradiction and excluded middle. Where someone rejects basic logic such a one cannot be reasoned with, only pointed out as a sad example of what is to be avoided. KF] , there is room for their god.[--> it seems that P is motivated by antipathy for God. The resorts he makes above speak volumes for the impact of such an antipathy. He also knows or should know that there are and have been significant design advocates and friends who are agnostics, etc, starting with Sir Fred Hoyle. KF]
Well, since you seem so eager, help me out. Time for another ID prediction: You won't.Mung
October 10, 2012
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petrushka on October 10, 2012 at 6:44 pm said:
Perhaps this has been hidden from me in plain sight, but I just had an epiphany. If any ID advocate comes up with a way to calculate the CSI of a sequence, that calculation becomes a potential selection oracle. That oracle, applied to any old generic GA, guarantees that the GA can generate CSI. QED. How did I go wrong on this?
By being a day (or more) late and a dollar short? See here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations/the-tsz-and-jerad-thread-continued/#comment-435866Mung
October 10, 2012
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OMTWO:
I thought ID was only about detecting design?
And THAT explains the problem. I will leave you to your strawmen and a "science" book that attacks a strawman and doesn't provide any way to test its claims.Joe
October 10, 2012
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So what does ID add then? Specifically?
It adds the correct way at looking at organisms- just as archaeology adds the correct way of looking at a group of rocks, ie Stonehenge. Or perhaps OMTWO can provide a testable hypothesis fpr blind and undirected chemical processes doingit.
Doing what Joe?
Doing what YOU claim they can- try any bacterial flagellum.
So the fact that we have an observed process (Evolution) is no good because evolution does not explain Nature itself?
Only intellectual cowards equivocate and you do in continually. ID is NOT anti-evolution. Saw it and read it. Darwin didn’t know anything and he argued against a strawman. IOW he was intellectually dishonest.
Really?
Absolutely.
It’s just been voted most influential science book ever in the UK with 90% of the vote.
That doesn't change the facts. Whatever YOU were blathering about, OMTWO.
You said “it”.
Man you are dense- YOU said:
No matter how random it seems to us, it might not be.
YOU SAID IT - I was responding to you. But thanks for proving that you are not only a waste of time but also a waste of sj=kin...Joe
October 10, 2012
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"And we don’t see a designer coming in to correct our spelling - we have programs that do it." hahahaha - good oneMung
October 10, 2012
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keiths- Why don't we see an objective nested hierarchy with prokaryotes? Why are you too afraid to face the facts?Joe
October 10, 2012
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OMTWO:
Yet ID adds a designer when we have a better explanation already.
Yet that "explanation" can't even produce a testable hypothesis.
Joe’s designer designed the cosmos.
Given the options that is the best explanation.
We’ve observed evolution in action both at small (directly, Lenski, Nylon) and large scales (by the physical evidence left).
Again ID is NOT anti-evolution, only anti- the blind watchmaker having sole dominion over evolutionary processes. Also both Lenski and nylonase smack of built-in responses to environmental cues. Or perhaps OMTWO can provide a testable hypothesis fpr blind and undirected chemical processes doingit.
We have never observed any designer intervention in experiments such as Lenski’s. And we don't see a designer coming in to correct our spelling- we have programs that do it. Lenski's experiments tell us there are severe limits to evolution.
We have identified a process that explains the complexity found in nature.
1- They do not explain nature 2- Those processes have to explain much more than mere complexity. And they cannot.
Despite not being able to identify any evidence of a designer at all ...
And yet we have. OTOH you still have nothing.
See Origin of Species.
Saw it and read it. Darwin didn't know anything and he argued against a strawman. IOW he was intellectually dishonest.
Can a die (sigh) ever be fair?
Yes. All you have to do is demonstrate blind and undirected processes can produce it and I have nothing to say.
Product what Joe?
Whatever YOU were blathering about, OMTWO.
Given that you’ve spent thousands of words saying that transitional fossils are not in fact transitional,...
And more lies- I said "transitional" = it looks like a transitional to me.
Joe
October 10, 2012
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I logged on late last night to respond to Jerad’s questions at #93, but then read through Eric’s very fine explanation at #194, and thought there was really not too much to add. Then after reading Jerad’s ridiculous treatment of Eric’s comments today, I can see there is simply no amount of reasoning or evidence that can be offered. Our universal common experience of material phenomena (like information) simply does not matter in these cases. When someone has a worldview to protect, even discussing material evidence becomes pointless. But don’t sweat it Jerad. You can eat the fruit apple, but you can’t eat the word “apple”. There’s little doubt how you might find it difficult to identify one from the other.Upright BiPed
October 10, 2012
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OK, just a couple of final thoughts on the concept of information and then I'll let the thread resume its regularly-scheduled programming. Jerad @196: Might be helpful for us to say it this way: Objects and events have characteristics which can be described using information. Very simple example: I have a pencil. This is information. The information, however, is a mental/figurative representation of the actual object. The information is not the actual object and cannot be; information is always representative of something else. Again, I think the bulk of the confusion arises from the very broad colloquial use of the word "information" and the idea of information being "contained" in an object or an event. If you want to use the word "information" to refer to the characteristics of objects and events, fine. But please then, every time you use the word that way, add the following parenthetical caveat: "(please note that I am using the word in a broad sense and not in the sense of information theory or in a sense that is relevant to technological/biological information storage, retrieval, coding, languages, etc.)." :) ----- Mung @207: If that was the only copy of the book, then, yes, the information is destroyed. Unlike matter and energy, information is created and destroyed all the time. An overwritten file, a burned letter, a disintegrated ancient tablet, a note written in the sand that gets washed away by the rising tide . . . This is a very interesting aspect of information and one that distinguishes it from matter and energy (and one that also highlights the fact that information is neither merely a characteristic of, nor reducible to, matter and energy).Eric Anderson
October 10, 2012
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Evolutionism definitely doesn’t predict one.
Really?
1 We do NOT see one with prokaryotes. does evolutionism apply to prokaryotes? 2 With a gradual process we would expect a blending of traits along any given branch. Ya see Allan, nested hierarchies are constructed with just the TIPS of the branches when in reality every point along the branch is a transitional population- each slightly modified from the previous. That means we would have mammal-like reptiles and reptile-like mammals- a rali live Venn diagram, complete with overlaps. Nested hierarchies require distinct sets, no overlaps.Joe
October 10, 2012
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dr boo-who cries on:
What does I.D. predict in relation to there being an objective nested hierarchy in a biosphere?
It predicts that we can make a nested hierarchy out of just about anything. Ya see nested hierarchies are purely artificial, but then again you don't seem to know what a nested hierarchy is. So perhaps you should start with that.Joe
October 10, 2012
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And OMTWO proves it doesn't understand science:
My answer would be none at all. Joe et al’s usual would say that if only we were to observe natural processes (“Darwinism”, “Evolutionism” etc) creating CSI/FSCI/FSCIO etc then ID would be disproved. Yet that does not rule out a designer at all.
Newton's four rules of scientific investigation contradict what you say OMTWO. Who do you think we should side with, the father of modern science or an anonymous loser? Then it tries to make this personal:
And anyway, Joe specifically has a fall-back position that covered absolutely everything anyway.
Anyway, anayway and anyway, I don't.
No matter how random it seems to us, it might not be.
That is irrelevant. All you have to do is demonstrate blind and undirected processes can produce it and I have nothing to say.
I’ve tried to pin Joe down on if he therefore believes that there is no such thing as a “fair dice” but of course he goes of into “who is throwing the dice and where did they get them from eh eh” irrelevancies.
Of course there isn't any such thing as A "fair DICE"- dice is plural, duh. :razz:Joe
October 10, 2012
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