Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE

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On Sept 23rd, I put up an essay challenge as captioned, primarily to objecting commenter Jerad.

As at October 2nd, he has definitively said: no.

Joe informs us that Zachriel has tried to brush it aside:

Try Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859). It’s a bit dated and longer than 6,000 words, (the 6th edition is 190,000 words), but Darwin considered it just a long abstract, and it still makes for a powerful argument.

This is, frankly, a “don’t bother me” brush-off; telling in itself, as a definitive, successful answer would have momentous impact on this blog.

Zachriel’s response reminds me, all too strikingly, of the cogency of  what Philip Johnson had to say in reply to Lewontin’s claims in his NYRB article in January 1997:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original]We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

There is a serious matter on the table, to be addressed in the context that there is now a significant empirically grounded challenge to the claim that blind chance forces and mechanical necessity can account for the world of life. And, that reminds us to mention that the co-founder of the theory of evolution from 1869 on argued for intelligent evolution, specifically publishing his views at length in The World of Life. Which, is still a powerful argument that that world is “a manifestation of Creative Power, Directive Mind and Ultimate Purpose.”

Hey, let’s add a vid:

[youtube hxvAVln6HLI]

For instance, here — with simplified paragraphing — is a comment in Wallace’s preface:

. . . the most prominent feature of my book is that I enter into a popular yet critical examination of those underlying fundamental problems which Darwin purposely excluded from his works as being beyond the scope of his enquiry.

Such are, the nature and causes of Life itself ; and more especially of its most fundamental and mysterious powers growth and reproduction. I first endeavour to show (in Chapter XIV.) by a care-ful consideration of the structure of the bird’s feather; of the marvellous transformations of the higher insects ; and, more especially of the highly elaborated wing-scales of the Lepidoptera (as easily accessible examples of what is going on in every part of the structure of every living thing), the absolute necessity for an organising and directive Life-Principle in order to account for the very possibility of these complex outgrowths.

I argue, that they necessarily imply first, a Creative Power, which so constituted matter as to render these marvels possible ; next, a directive Mind which is demanded at every step of what we term growth, and often look upon as so simple and natural a process as to require no explanation ; and, lastly, an ultimate Purpose, in the very existence of the whole vast life-world in all its long course of evolution throughout the eons of geological time.

This Purpose, which alone throws light on many of the mysteries of its mode of evolution, I hold to be the development of Man, the one crowning product of the whole cosmic process of  life-development ; the only being which can to some extent comprehend nature; which can perceive and trace out her modes of action ; which can appreciate the hidden forces and motions everywhere at work, and can deduce from them a supreme and over-ruling Mind as their necessary cause.

For those who accept some such view as I have indicated, I show (in Chapters XV. and XVI.) how strongly it is sup-ported and enforced by a long series of facts and co-relations which we can hardly look upon as all purely accidental coincidences. Such are the infinitely varied products of living things which serve man’s purposes and man’s alone not only by supplying his material wants, and by gratifying his higher tastes and emotions, but as rendering possible many of those advances in the arts and in science which we claim to be the highest proofs of his superiority to the brutes, as well as of his advancing civilisation.

From a consideration of these better-known facts I proceed (in Chapter XVII.) to an exposition of the mystery of cell-growth ; to a consideration of the elements in their special relation to the earth itself and to the life-world ; while in the last chapter I endeavour to show the purpose of that law of diversity which seems to pervade the whole material Universe.

In short, Darwin’s co-founder — and a man who was at least as learned on the substantial evidence as Darwin was — plainly argued at book length with copious evidence, that the evidence on the ground strongly points to design and purpose even within an evolutionary frame. Brushing the challenge off off by pointing to Darwin’s book, fails the giggle test.

So, here is the challenge, placed before the Darwinist (and similar), Blind Watchmaker Thesis objectors to design theory; especially those at TSZ:

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

 

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here —  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

And BTW, I am making this offer without consulting with the blog owner or others, I am sure they would welcome a serious response . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

That challenge is on the table. In truth, it has always been implicitly on the table. For, as I went on to note on Sept 23:

Now, at any time, in essentially any thread at UD any serious and civil design theory objector could have submitted such an essay, breaking it up into a multi part comment if desired . . .

And, it is quite clear that if there were a cogent, empirically well-grounded blind watchmaker thesis account of the origins of the world of life, there would be no design theory movement in biology.

(There would still be a serious design argument in cosmology, but that is a different matter. That does, however, show that strictly speaking design theory has no need to make its case in the world of life; it is because of the blatant weight of the evidence that there is a design movement on phenomena in the world of life.)

So, there you have it, there is a challenge officially on the table.

Let us see if any of the many objectors to design theory at TSZ or elsewhere — I would even accept a parallel post and discussion here and at TSZ (though, no, I will not be commenting there if that is done) — will be willing to step up to the plate. END

Comments
kf, I agree totally. consider this offering from Toronto: Toronto on October 24, 2012 at 10:40 pm said:
Mung: “Toronto seems flabbergasted that I wasn’t just floored by his knock-down refutation of ID: “ ID can’t be refuted because it has made no claims of its own. You could change all that Mung by showing how to change a single “bit” in the DNA of a living creature.
Now does anyone here really think that if I showed how to change a single "bit" in the DNA of a living creature it would "change all that"? Well, Toronto, just for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering We've been doing it for decades now.Mung
October 25, 2012
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Mung: At this point, it is increasingly evident that we are dealing with too many who are seeking talking-points, not warranted truth points. Such need to reflect very carefully on what a continuing misrepresentation is, especially when sustained in the teeth of appropriate correction. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2012
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keiths:
Unguided evolution absolutely crushes ID as a theory
There is no substance to your theory of unguided evolution. It is, therefore, incapable of crushing anything. Let us know when your theory of unguided evolution is more than just an idea in your head.
I haven’t claimed that designed weed patches are impossible. What I have claimed is that when we come across a weed patch, we should infer that it was created by natural causes unless we have reasons to think otherwise.
You're not following along. There's no reason to think something is a weed unless you're taking into consideration the context. If the context you want us to consider is a garden, then you need to explain the garden. You haven't erased the 'garden' problem raised by Zachriel just because you decided to introduce weeds.
I also didn’t claim that designed streambeds were impossible. What I did claim is that when we come across a realistic streambed, unguided natural causes are a better explanation than design unless we have strong reasons to think that the streambed is artificial.
You have no theory of unguided natural causes, therefore it cannot be a better theory. To be sure there a great many more streambeds not deigned by humans than there are streambeds designed by humans, but that is the reason we don't infer design for the typical streambed, not because we have some theory of unguided natural processes that provides a better theory.
Similarly, a designer who mimics unguided evolution is not impossible.
You're merely repeating a claim that has already been rebutted. There is no 'unguided evolution' to mimic.
Not if exactly the same complex trait arises simultaneously in 25 different lineages, and especially not if the trait is underwritten by long genes that are identical, nucleotide by nucleotide, in all the lineages.
Far be it from me to point out the ad hoc nature of your responses to Zachriel. Is your theory of unguided evolution any less ad hoc, or can it also be modified to avoid any falsification at will?Mung
October 24, 2012
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Toronto seems flabbergasted that I wasn't just floored by his knock-down refutation of ID: Toronto: An “inference to best explanation” is not a good explanation for what we are discussing since your inference leads to a more improbable entity than the one you are trying to explain. Mung: So? Toronto:
OMG!
One has to wonder, if we trace that back to it's source, will we find an even less probable entity?Mung
October 24, 2012
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KF: I hope hurricane Sandy isn't threatening your country. It sounds like Jamaica is in for a bit of a hammering. ________ Heard of it late yesterday -- at first I thought it must have formed off Honduras, as that is likely at this time and I had not heard before. But it cut into the region from the E at about the latitude of Barbados (v. bad track that, for Ja), and fully formed up inside the region near Ja, moving North. Called Father. They had already been hit, and taken licks but not so bad in SE St Elizabeth. Asked him to call my second parents in Kingston, no word yet. The good news, Cat 1, the bad news, lots of rain, the infamous Sandy Gully was running hard and threatening to collapse concrete-reinforced banks, and the eye came ashore 5 mi east of Kingston. First full blow since Gilbert in 1988. Went over the Blue Mtns -- helps cut up hurricanes that's partly good news at least for Cuba, where it went next. KFJerad
October 24, 2012
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Mung, Let's deal with the attempted substantial point, by T.
An “inference to best explanation” is not a good explanation for what we are discussing since your inference leads to a more improbable entity than the one you are trying to explain.
FSCO/I is by definition highly contingent. So, it demands a cause, an adequate cause. Where there is exactly one observed, known, adequate cause on billions of examples all around us, indeed in making comments like the above T adds to the list. That cause is design. Design, then is known to be possible and to exist. It is known as well to give rise to the effect. There is no other credible observed cause, i.e we have a highly reliable sign, as GP has pointed out in his test specificity ratio analysis. So, on the strength of that reliable sign, we infer that a known cause was acting in cases of FSCO/I where we did not happen to see the cause in action directly. A not so hard thing to do, and one that is also backed up by a large number of cases where the inference has been subsequently confirmed. Why is this even controversial? Because origins science has been dominated by an a priori ideological system that tries to pretend that the only empirically grounded inferences that one can make under the name of science are traceable to chance and necessity, so that intelligence and design are derivative thereof. This creates the perception that designers at the point of origin of life -- which is chock full of FSCO/I -- are improbable. Even, vastly improbable. So, never mind that the suggestion is empirically ungrounded there is an insistence on inference to material cause of life. That is an inference in the teeth of the empirical evidence and rooted in an ideological a priori. The answer to it is simple. On the contrary, the presence of FSCO/I, given the strength of reliability of this sign, is a further reason to infer to the presence of the process known to cause FSCO/I, namely design. And, like it or lump it, design tends to be caused by designers. So, we are warranted to infer that since design as process is best explanation, designers as the source of said designs are plausible -- or at the very least, seriously possible -- at the relevant point, especially OOL. Where the usual outs are missing. End of story. KF PS: I see T is resorting to the usual smears, slanders and willfully continued misrepresentations, in this case including a slander that by implication of the fact that it is I who have made the offer, attacks me. Apparently he cannot seem to realise that slander is uncivil behaviour and cause for exclusion from civil discourse if one refuses to accept correction and take it back, apologising. In short he is providing further reason to show why the policy of warning then removing the uncivil, given the habitual pattern of personal attacks, is justified. And, I think on fair comment that the removal of some of those who have been persistently guilty has improved the quality of serious discussion. So, if you are implying further that you can only "win" by resorting to red herrings led out to strawmen and soaking such in ad hominems then setting alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, that is itself telling on the want of a case on the merits. And, if you had a case that was solid on the merits in a context of my personal guarantee to host this here at UD, if you had the solid case you would jump at the offer. Last for now, I refuse to go to TSZ as I refuse to subject myself to inundation in a barrage of personalities, as has happened over and over. Why don't you all take a leaf from Jerad's book and try to discuss in a sober and serious fashion, instead? As a good place to begin, the offer still stands. Pardon a bit of direct folk wisdom: fish, help cut the bait, or kindly get out of the way of those who are fishing.kairosfocus
October 24, 2012
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F/N: On weed patches: Nature acting freely by chance depositions of seed, and wind and rain uncorrelated with the weeds, are well known as able to account for weeds. Indeed, if we don't work hard to keep them out by artificial selection, they would overcome every garden, lawn, hedge, etc. The number of cases where blind chance and mechanical necessity are observed to cause FSCO/I is? NIL The number of cases where such FSCO/I is caused by design is, BILLIONS, including posts in this thread, even those of objectors. Not to mention, those at TSZ. So, we have a known adequate cause and a known empirically observable and reliable sign of it. So, when we see it we have every epistemic ground -- never mind the imposition of a priori materialism etc -- to infer that the sign speaks reliably, as tested. And, the antics of ever so many objectors are some of the strongest reasons for seeing the strength of that inference. News has just linked Melissa Travis, who has laid out a myth balloon-popping exercise:
MYTH #4: ID uses a disguised form of the “God of the gaps” fallacy. The true story: ID does not say “We don’t yet know how life emerged from non-life, therefore an intelligence must have done it.” Rather, it makes a two-fold argument: 1) Neo-Darwinian explanations for the emergence and divergence of life are sorely insufficient in their explanatory power and 2) there are features of nature, such as the specified complexity of the digital information in DNA, that are best explained by intelligent agency. We already know from direct experience how to detect intelligence in other branches of science, so inferring intelligence based on the same type of observed effects is completely reasonable. In scientific practice, we infer the existing cause that is KNOWN to produce the effect in question. Since biochemistry contains information, ID theorists infer that there must be an informer, because there are no other sources of information. Ironically, whenever a materialist says, “We don’t yet know how life emerged from non-life, but one day science will explain it,” they are actually using the Science of the Gaps fallacy.
Aptly said. KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2012
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Toronto:
An “inference to best explanation” is not a good explanation for what we are discussing since your inference leads to a more improbable entity than the one you are trying to explain.
So? damitall2:
Quite apart from the authoritarian, arbitrary, and biased nature of the “moderation” at UD, why on earth should anyone attempt to condense the truly huge amount of evidence for evolution that already exists and and is easily available for a few mouse-clicks?
A red-herring. The challenge can be distilled to two things: 1. The origin of life. 2. Body plan diversification. All the evolutionary theory in the world won't help with #1. Evolutionary theory can't get off the ground until we have some minimal system of life capable of diversification. As for #2, assemble your best evidence and win the debate on just that one point. You don't need to condense "truly huge amounts of evidence" to do that. Heck, just think of it, you can leave out the colored moth story, since it has nothing to do with body plans. Same with finches. And bacteria. and on and on. Toronto:
Negative comments on “Darwinism” don’t count and neither does anything addressing the improbability of being here.
You don't understand the first thing about ID, do you.Mung
October 24, 2012
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Over at TSZ keiths puts forth an interesting argument in favor of intelligent design in defense of his nested hierarchy theory. His main platform? It's just too improbable! Yes, it's true. keiths on October 24, 2012 at 12:21 am said:
What makes this odd hierarchy unlikely is that we would never expect unguided evolution to change a comma to an R and then back to a comma, and we would never expect to end up with all commas after starting with a mixture of commas and letters. The probability of these events is way too low, given unguided evolution.
I wonder if he calculated just how improbable those events are. I wonder if he calculated how more likely they would be under a design hypothesis.
However, if intelligence is involved, then this odd hierarchy is perfectly possible, as are many, many others. In fact, any historical hierarchy can be made to match your sequences if we simply assume that an intelligence caused the right changes to happen to the right sequences at the right times.
That's right keiths, intelligent choice can account for things that are just too improbable under the theory of 'unguided evolution.' Now, what you get to do, is explain why the nested hierarchy we have is more likely given the 'unguided evolution didit' hypothesis. Try not to assume your conclusion.
Unguided evolution fits the ONH without requiring such assumptions. It’s the better theory.
Regardless of how utterly improbable the hierarchy is given the hypothesis of 'unguided evolution', unguided evolution will always be the better theory? Sounds circular to me!Mung
October 24, 2012
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keiths:
A better analogy is a weed patch. I say the best explanation for a weed patch is that it arose naturally. You point out that it could have been created by a gardener. Well, it’s logically possible that a gardener carefully planted each weed, but this requires ad hoc and unjustified assumptions about the gardener’s aims, abilities and/or limitations. The natural hypothesis fits the evidence extremely well without any unjustified assumptions, while the gardener hypothesis requires them in order to fit. The natural hypothesis is thus a better explanation for the weed patch, and any rational person would prefer it over the gardener hypothesis.
No, if you really think about it, a weed patch is not a better analogy. How to Grow a Weed Garden Wikipedia:
The term weed is used in a variety of senses, generally centering around a plant that is not desired within a certain context.
Except in a weed garden, the plants are desired in that context. Which, I guess, would make them not weeds. But thanks for the continued laughs. keiths:
Also note that as ridiculous as it sounds to invoke gardeners to explain weed patches, that hypothesis is actually more respectable than ID, because we actually know that gardeners exist.
So? We also know designers exist.Mung
October 24, 2012
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dr who:
Of course (to all that, excepting a slight quibble on the loose sense of “incompatible” – but as I said, I’d prefer it if we kept to its precise meaning in logic – keiths wouldn’t have laid himself open to Mung’s trick of taking his title literally and ignoring what he actually says in the post, which contradicts the literal/logical interpretation of the title, had he kept to that meaning).
From our perspective it was keiths trying to pull off the rhetorical trick by making an assertion in his title that he never intended to back up in the first place. Here's the title he should have used if it's what he actually intended to argue: Unguided Evolution explains the evidence for common descent trillions and trillions of times better than ID But that's not quite the headline as claiming ID is not compatible with CD now, is it. He also made it quite clear that this was only part one. Should we not take that literally either? Shall we assume there never will be a part 2? But given that this was to be a multipart series, and given the actual title of the thread, the inference I made regarding what keiths intended to prove was not unreasonable nor was my response a 'trick.'Mung
October 24, 2012
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Toronto: There is no equivalency and an attempt to pretend that you cannot simply go to the IOSE intro-summary page as I have linked from the very beginning or -- for every post I have ever made at UD -- link a longstanding reference note through my handle is transparently insincere. It is a patent attempt to find any excuse not to provide a reasonable, empirically grounded case for the blind watchmaker thesis materialist model of origins. The offer as long since made -- over a month -- is made in good faith, is a more than fair offer and stands on its own terms. Remember, onlookers, every tub must stand on its own bottom. So, Toronto, I suggest you provide your essay. And if you need more than 6,000 words, that would be fine within reason; noting that there is room for onward links. G'day GEM of TKI PS: Mung, the summary was originally quite shorter, it has grown as I have had to respond to the twists and turns of the darwinist mindset and its incredible ability to strawmannise.kairosfocus
October 23, 2012
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Toronto on October 23, 2012 at 2:04 pm said:
I would be willing to submit a 6000 word essay for posting at UD but I need to know that KF is also willing to submit a similar essay justifying empirical evidence of the “designer scheme for origins” from OOL on.
He would probably need to spend 6,000 words just getting you to understand ID fundamentals.Mung
October 23, 2012
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keiths
A bifurcating tree, if you observe it as it forms, will of course form a nested hierarchy. However, if you don’t observe it as it forms, then you won’t necessarily be able to infer the hierarchy from the evidence it leaves behind. I’ll give a concrete example later tonight when I have more time, and then all will be clear (I hope).
Oh, this should be good. Maybe use prokaryotes in your example.Mung
October 23, 2012
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CentralScrutinizer @ 526, None that I've seen. But surely a scientific theory of unguidedness should be able to answer that simple question. Maybe he thinks it's a trap, so he won't answer it. Or maybe he has no theory and is all bluster.Mung
October 23, 2012
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dr who:
I think that the problem is that keiths’ is not using the word “compatible” in its strict logical sense in the O.P. title phrase “I.D. is not compatible with the evidence for common descent”.
Well, that's what he says now anyways. We should not take not compatible to mean incompatible, we should take it to mean like when two people don't quite always see eye to eye. dr who:
Linguistically, it’s fine to use compatible in the way that keiths’ has... So, I think we should ignore the O.P. title, and concentrate on what he’s actually saying in the post.
Sure, we can use not compatible to mean any number of things with which the definition if incompatible is not compatible. Then we can say that because Bob gets along with Jill trillions and trillions of times better than he does with Alice, that is a better explanation for why Bob and Alice are incompatible. But that would be just silly. dr who:
The general I.D. hypothesis “life on earth was intelligently designed” would be logically compatible with any biosphere, including one that could have arisen by non-telic processes (because intelligent designers can make things that also arise by non-telic processes).
What on earth is a non-telic process? Do you have an example of a non-telic process created by an intelligent designer? petrushka:
Well ID, from the time of Paley. rests on analogies with human designers. So it is reasonable to extend the analogy to the motives and methods of human designers.
Dear petrushka. ID is an inference to the best explanation. That's why Dembski uses P(T|H). Even Elliott Sober reads Paley as making a likelihood argument, not an argument from analogy. Do read up. Let me know if you want reference. keiths:
True, and the evidence also does not preclude the Rain Fairy. True, and the evidence also does not preclude the Rain Fairy. It’s just that meteorology fits the evidence far better than does the Rain Fairy hypothesis. A rational person looking for the best explanation will choose meteorology over the Rain Fairy.
And your evidence that rain fairies cause rain is? And by the way, meteorology does not cause rain any more than rain fairies cause rain. Do make some effort to at least sound reasonable. Please. keiths:
Likewise, a rational person looking for the best explanation of the objective nested hierarchy will choose unguided evolution over ID
A rational person wouldn't make stuff up out of while cloth and then expect people to debate him over it either. keiths:
Mung, please pay attention.
oh, to be sure, i am. Still waiting for a rational argument from you. Next you'll be telling us sunshine comes from black holes.Mung
October 23, 2012
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Mung @ 485 to keiths,
Let me see if you can make it easier for you. Say I have a weighted coin, and as a result of it’s being weighted, in a series of tosses it will show heads more than tails. Would you call the outcome ‘guided’ or ‘unguided’?
That's beautiful Did keiths ever take a stab at an answer to this?CentralScrutinizer
October 23, 2012
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Meanwhile, keiths continues work on his mathematical theory of unguidedness. not really. he has no theory. only an assumption.Mung
October 23, 2012
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keiths, testifying in Court:
Only unguided evolution posists an objective nested hierarchy
Please tell us about the lack of an objective nested hierarchy wrt single-celled organisms keiths:
IDiot!
So no answer then. Please explain where we would put all the alleged transitionals that had to have lived- you know the transitionals that have a BLEND of characteristics which would wreck an objective nested hierarchy?
IDiot!
Judge- place keiths under arrest for comtempt of court.Joe
October 22, 2012
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Toronto submits another FINE entry in the Junk For Brains contest.Mung
October 21, 2012
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keiths:
You can assume that the Designer just happens to mimic unguided evolution in this regard, instead of choosing one of the trillions of alternatives, but what’s the basis for that assumption? If there’s no independent justification for it, then it’s merely an ad hoc attempt to force an ID-shaped peg into an evolution-shaped hole.
How does one mimic unguided evolution? There's nothing there to mimic. And as you know, evolution does not explain the features of living organisms that allow evolution to take place in the first place, so again, there's nothing to mimic. So there's no need for an assumption about some designer mimicking something that didn't even exist. And your own 'theory' is entirely post hoc AND ad hoc. So there.
Unguided evolution doesn’t require unjustified, ad hoc assumptions like this in order to fit the evidence for common descent.
Sure it does. It requires the assumption that all life is related via common ancestry and that the mechanisms involved in the origin and further diversification of life were unguided.
For that reason, it is the better theory.
'Unguided evolution' doesn't rise to the level of theory. It's wishful thinking. On top of which, your definition is circular.Mung
October 21, 2012
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Zachriel:
The actual challenge for Mung and others is to understand our positions, rather than just pointing at the disagreement and saying “See, even evolutionists disagree!”
I can't think of a better example of people who deliberately misrepresent ID than you folks over at TSZ. Most of you have apparently been banned from one or more ID sites for doing just that. We repeatedly ask you all for your evidence, and even created this thread specifically to give you an opportunity to make your case. The response so far has been underwhelming.Mung
October 21, 2012
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Well, I see keiths has walked back his claim that "Intelligent Design is not compatible with the evidence for common descent." He doesn't mean that they are not logically compatible, only that they are not compatible in the same way that two people may be said to be incompatible (e.g., Bob and Alice don't get along well). I kid you not. What a wast of our time he was. Oh, I didn't really mean it like it's normally meant. INCOMPATIBLE:
1. Incapable of associating or blending or of being associated or blended because of disharmony, incongruity, or antagonism. 2. Impossible to be held simultaneously by one person 3. Logic That cannot be simultaneously true; mutually exclusive. ---------- 1. incapable of living or existing together in peace or harmony; conflicting or antagonistic 2. opposed in nature or quality; inconsistent 3. (of an office, position, etc.) only able to be held by one person at a time ---------- 1: incapable of being held by one person at one time —used of offices that make conflicting demands on the holder 2: not compatible: as a : incapable of association or harmonious coexistence c : not both true
two statements or more are logically incompatible just in case their conjunction is logically false. One statement logically implies another when it is logically incompatible with the negation of the other.
"Don't get along well" is not synonymous with incompatible. Forgive me for thinking he was making an argument that we now find out he wasn't making all along.Mung
October 21, 2012
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KF (517): My mistake, I didn't realise you were talking about the video link I posted. Sorry about that. My bad. You're comment makes much more sense in that context. I completely forgot about the video link since it was a bit of a side issue. And I will certainly respect your request about names. You posted me a link once which had your true name on it so you might want to look at those documents. I will not condone or support or tolerate childish, bullying behaviour. And if that means not using real names then I will reluctantly comply. It's sad though, if it's come to that. Please accept my apologies for that oversight, not having had the same problem myself I didn't realise it was an issue. I won't do it again, of that you can be sure.Jerad
October 19, 2012
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Jerad:
Order is not complex, functional, specific information?
No.
Those are disparate notions?
Yes. But don't conflate order with organization.Mung
October 19, 2012
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Jerad: I am speaking about system dynamics, and am pointing out how the sort of "spontaneous" synchronisation you remarked on is due to nonlinearities reflected in higher order dynamics. The effect is fairly common and is for instance able to synchronise systems to the mains. And I think it was first recorded some 300 years ago when the clocks in a watch maker's shop on a board were seen to be all moving in alignment, having been coupled through the common board they were mounted on. The lawlike regularities -- thus low contingencies, reflected in laws of necessity and driving forces, is the opposite of the sort of highly organised but not simply orderly patterns that are required to create functionally specific complex systems and structures under wiring diagram like node and arc arrangements. In short, I am here distinguishing this as a case of low contingency mechanical necessity as opposed to chance contingeny or choice contingency, reflective in stochastic distributions of patterns and FSCO/I respectively. That is, the explanatory filter is in action. And yes, order and orgsanisation in the relevant senses are quite distinct, as you would have seen long ago from the IOSE. I suggest you look at the summary page and read the remarks by those notorious design thinkers -- NOT, Wicken and Orgel. a COMMON ILLUSTRATION IS: i: ORDER, SIMILAR TO A CRYSTAL: asasasasasas . . . II: CHANCE: fhesa0iugiegf9uwhjwsgihicviyavcdfh . . . iii: ORGANISATION: requires specific components in a given pattern to achieve a function but it is not merely repetitive. This example was first put up in the very first ID-supportive technical book, in discussing the distinctions above, and applying them to the way in which the organisation of a cell and its molecules differs from polymerisation or crystallisation that has a repetitive orderly pattern, and the sort of randomness in an organic tar or a bit of rock with all sorts of randomly mixed components. And no it is not rubbish or meaningless. KF PS: Kindly do not use my given name online, as it lends to identity problems and spamming. There are sites that use it, with the full knowledge that I have made a simple request, delighting to cause problems and imagining that they are "outing me" to cause harm, acting at about the level of an 8 YO schoolyard bully. ALL THEY DO IS SHOW THEIR DISRESPECT AND INCIVILITY.kairosfocus
October 19, 2012
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KF (515):
That sort of phase locking is due to nonlinesarities and is in fact driven by necessity, it is not order out of chaos just so.
What??
Its low contingency would point to law and there is analysis that leads to that. BTW, this is what is counted on too with distributed generation and net metering, the dominance of the system will lock in the small generators.
I really can't follow that.
What we are looking to explain is not order but complex, functionally specific organisation where high contingency is required
Order is not complex, functional, specific information? Those are disparate notions? Please don't respond out of a sense of obligation. I know you've got a lot on your plate. Really, honestly [SNIP], some of what you wrote is . . . just nonsense. I'm going to wait 'til you've had more time to compose a response.Jerad
October 19, 2012
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Jerad: That sort of phase locking is due to nonlinesarities and is in fact driven by necessity, it is not order out of chaos just so. Its low contingency would point to law and there is analysis that leads to that. BTW, this is what is counted on too with distributed generation and net metering, the dominance of the system will lock in the small generators. What we are looking to explain is not order but complex, functionally specific organisation where high contingency is required. Gotta go KFkairosfocus
October 19, 2012
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Not sure which thread to post this but I think this is a fascination example of how order can arise from chaos via purely mechanical processes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JWToUATLGzs 32 metronomes are started at arbitrary times and within a few minutes they are all synchronised. Amazing to see.Jerad
October 19, 2012
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Allan Miller on October 19, 2012 at 4:24 pm said:
So the Darwinist’s tree starts with a small group – the first sexual species, say – and all bustling activity is at the tips, among the living. Species, more species, more species, more species … the results of these bifurcations get more and more dissimilar as time since branching deepens, and higher and higher divisions become necessary.
So there you have it Joe. The Darwinist's tree starts with the first sexual species. Now if we can just find out how "unguided evolution" predicts that species will continuously bifurcate and continuously diversify. So species, then more species, then more species, all which look alot alike. Until finally we can begin to group them in higher taxonomic categories (once they have diverged enough). And they are completely oblivious to PaV's argument. PaV:
In the case of Darwin, he has species at the bottom and orders and families at the top of his “cone”. Linnaeus would have classes at the bottom of his “cone”, and genera and species at the top of his cone.
He's saying they are saying exactly what he says they are saying, and they deny it while saying exactly what he says they are saying. That is EXACTLY what Allan has just described.Mung
October 19, 2012
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