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Trump goes nuke:

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” . . . you would be in jail.

Clip:

[youtube qwe34MIYYEk]

(To make certainty on non endorsement etc clear, snip. KF)

The pivotal issue relevant to UD here, is not whether either major candidate is of any great promise ([again to be utterly clear, snip. KF]), but instead, the revelation of utter media bias and manipulation. The issue, then becomes, how do we stand against the tide of a civilisational march of folly, complete with agit prop agendas dressed up in lab coats?

How does this speak to preserving a modicum of sanity and respect for facts and logic in discussion of serious issues; often in the face of all sorts of agit prop or trollish distractions, with the future of our civilisation obviously in the stakes?

Let me add, issues like this:

geostrat-pic

Whatever the answer, to actually keep our heads when a civilisation is patently going mad all around us, is going to be hard.

Very hard.

But, we gotta try. END

[A NOTE FROM UD’S EDITORS:  As a 501(c)(3) organization, UD neither supports nor opposes candidate for political office.  While the above post mentions a political candidate and alludes to another, we consider it to be a commentary on the decay of Western Civilization, not a political endorsement or opposition.  KF, is of course free to hold his personal view of the candidates, which he states above.  This should be considered a statement of his own personal views and not the position of Uncommon Descent, Inc.]

 

56 Replies to “Trump goes nuke:

  1. 1
    kairosfocus says:

    A first warning from history, courtesy Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350+ years ago on what happens when the reprobates and nihilists take over opinion leadership in society:

    Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ –> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . .

    [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

    [ –> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by “winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . ” cf a video on Plato’s parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

    These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

    [ –> Evolutionary materialism — having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT — leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for “OUGHT” is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in “spin”) . . . ]

    and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ –> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ –> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush — as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [–> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].

    KF

    PS: Luke’s reply to Plato’s parable of the ship of state, by way of historical example in miniature in Ac 27 has much to teach us, too. Particularly note the role of Mr Moneybags and that of his bought and paid for technico in leading the majority into a march of folly.

  2. 2
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Added vid clip. KF

  3. 3
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N2: added, quick overview of the global geostrategic picture. Note, there is currently saber-rattling over events in Syria. KF

  4. 4

    How do we stand against the tide of a civilisational march of folly, complete with agit prop agendas dressed up in lab coats?

    Answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

    Answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

    And numerous other examples.

  5. 5
    kairosfocus says:

    TWSYF, good points. Delicious that Wiki has to document it, too. One a martyr, the other faced challenges all along. KF

  6. 6
    kairosfocus says:

    UD Editors, Disclaimer acknowledged and appreciated. I am not an American and endorse no particular party or individual; however due to the influence of US media, events and personalities globally, the US is often a bellwether for global/ civilisational trends and likely impacts. The main concern therefore is those trends, which are patently dangerous, as the geostrategic picture in outline above indicates. Likewise, the warning by Plato 2350+ years ago. As a civilisation, we need to pause and ponder carefully just where we are headed, above and beyond personalities, scandals, talking points, emotional manipulation, party platforms, interests/agendas and more; especially given the inherently unstable nature of democracies across 2500 years and the problem of marches of ruinous folly. I do confess to extreme pessimism about our civilisation and its prospects in coming decades on current trends. KF

  7. 7
    Dionisio says:

    Our hope is only in the One who made both candidates and made everybody else including us, as it is unambiguously written:

    All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. [John 1:3 (ESV)]

    Why is our hope only in Him?

    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. [Ephesians 6:12 (ESV)]

    Sola Scriptura
    Sola Fide
    Sola Gratia
    Solo Christo
    Soli Deo Gloria

    Apocalypse 22.21

  8. 8
    jimmontg says:

    To 7 Dionisio, even the 5 solas are not believed by many in the church either. The American Church is as divided as it’s politics with so much media that is Christian based and different from each other and many of the biggest ministries are health and wealth gospel based. I remember the many fiascos and scandals of the last 30 years. Oral Roberts, “God is going to take me home if you don’t send me $8 million.” was the image of the church to so many outside it. I’m glad I’m not one of those preachers come Judgment Day as poor as I am. Sadly they were just a reflection of our commercialized society, only in America could such nonsense, bordering on blasphemy in many cases have happened or I should say developed. I met a young lady raised in a church, 18 years old who did not know that Jesus was God. Needless to say she got a quick lesson on the Trinity and salvation. There are too many like her I think? What are our churches teaching?

  9. 9
    Dionisio says:

    jimmontg @8

    Interesting comment. Thank you.

    Perhaps Jesus has many fans, but not as many followers.
    The true church includes only the latter group.

    See if you can open and watch this:
    https://www.youtube.com/embed/lt8a041S1mQ

  10. 10
    kairosfocus says:

    D & JM: Sobering words regarding an institution and movement supposedly salt and light in a dark world. The failure of the church to live up to its mission is indeed part of our concern and leads to a call to reformation. Where, just to point out a fact of history, the US founders and framers saw the church, the scriptures and the gospel ethics they contain as key stabilising influences that made self-government of a free people possible. I think they were right to a great extent and the failure of what Francis Schaeffer termed the Christian Consensus is a key component of the destabilisation of leadership and sober, sound, widely understood cultural, circumstantial and geostrategic vision that are needed in an increasingly dangerous world. The resulting proneness to marches of ruinous folly is a direct result. Where, yet again, I point to Ac 27 for Luke’s mini case study based on a disastrous actual voyage that responds so chillingly to Plato’s parable of the ship. KF

    PS: Acts 27 is, in my view part of the teaching failure of the church. The political analysis side of Jesus’ ministry and especially the schemes and machinations of Passion Week are another. And, I have been of the view in recent years that we should educate our people in the rudiments of the Nicene Creed and at the next level, a critical mass should do a widely available web based Associate Degree in Christian Service that would include as a key component a systematics offering based on the creed, cf here as a “show and tell.” For socio-cultural vision, I point to the fulness of Christ theme of Eph 1 and 4, and suggest that the seven mountains of influence theme is a way to give this concrete expression, cf here on in its context. For geostrategic vision for C21, the little marked up map in the OP is a start-point. I know that even national level leaders are utterly ignorant and are often complacent at that level; much less, church leaders.

  11. 11
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: attempt to update a blogger page to add some images has led to a dropped page on prelims. I have sent f/b to Google. Interim preliminaries page: http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.....-page.html KF

    PS: The proper page is back but the in page anchors don’t work: http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.....seful.html

  12. 12
    kairosfocus says:

    Folks, let’s have a talk about how to try to rescue a civilisation on a road to ruin. Just, we must avoid endorsing or opposing any specific political parties in and around the US insofar as that may communicate a claimed position of UD. With the sort of point and shriek, mob rule internet riot mentality now on the prowl across our civilisation, that is important. KF

    PS: In case you think the above marked up map is not much, notice how Gorbachev is worried: https://www.yahoo.com/news/gorbachev-warns-dangerous-point-us-russia-ties-sour-090340767.html

  13. 13
    Dionisio says:

    KF,

    Thank you for the very insightful, sobering and timely comments @10 and the links @11 & @12.

  14. 14
    kairosfocus says:

    D, if the church is in need of reformation, it is because we have been stubborn in the face of the voice of our Lord on our duty to be salt and light, on our responsibility to fill all things with his grace and fullness, of our task to break false arguments that lead people away from acknowledging God, and failure to provide prophetic intellectual and cultural leadership — or, to listen to such leadership when it comes (how many really took Schaeffer seriously? And subsequently those who built on his legacy?). That text in Rev 3:20 on Jesus locked out of a club called a church, in Laodicea, likely was rooted in his sending someone but the leadership locked him out. He called them poor, naked and blind while imagining themselves the opposite and called them to fix the problem. Is that what we are seeing, a Laodicean era of smug complacency and material wealth at the price of spiritual soundness? That may mean we are in for a chastening to wake us up and call us to our responsibilities. As you can see from the links, I am actively and seriously working on mechanisms for reformation. KF

  15. 15
    kairosfocus says:

    DfO, Let us pray that our civilisation will repent, undergoing renewal, revival and reformation, so that salvation, blessing and transformation may spread across the earth in our time. The alternative is too horrible to bear detailed discussion just now. For such to happen, the first to repent must be us, the churches and the people who are called by the Name. KF

  16. 16
    john_a_designer says:

    Here is something I posted last Spring over at The Stream that I think fits here very well:

    Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? It wasn’t because some of its citizens tolerated, accepted or even celebrated gays and lesbians along with other forms of unnatural sexuality. It was because their society would not tolerate anyone who did not accept and approve of their self-invented “enlightened” morality (see Genesis 19.)

    Fortunately, as a society, we’re not yet to that point. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah till there were less than ten righteous or traditionally moral people left (Genesis 18:20-33.) Nevertheless, the slippery slope in the past few years has become very steep.

    On the other hand, unfortunately, because we live in a free and open democratic society, God won’t have do anything in terms of direct judgement. Democracies which lose their moral foundation tend to implode. That’s why John Adams wrote, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.” In other words, Adams was saying, if we don’t have a religious or moral citizenry our form of government won’t work. Democracy, Adams observed, “never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” It looks like that’s where we’re headed.

    Christians [as has already been mentioned here at UD] are more than partly to blame here. Jesus told his disciples, “You are the light of the world…” (see Matt. 5:13-16). This is the mission of common grace. Besides preaching to the lost we’re commanded to be a moral influence. We’ve been failing here—failing miserably. Is it too late? I pray to God it isn’t.

    https://stream.org/cannot-ignore-war-gender/

  17. 17
    kairosfocus says:

    Folks,

    Smoking gun email on what the manipulator class has been doing: https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3599

    –> Ask yourself, are ALL the moneybags on one side? (E.g. Koch vs Soros. [And no, I am not endorsing or opposing any parties or individuals, I am pointing out balancing facts given the known tendencies of pundits to give half of the story.])

    –> Ask yourself, what have the education unions, media houses etc done about straight civics [CSPAN aside] for decades?

    –> Ask yourself, about trends of affiliation and agendas in the education and media sectors?

    –> Ask yourself, what the churches and their leaders have been doing in recent decades?

    –> Include in that, how we have responded when voices such as Francis Schaeffer have come to us?

    –> Ask yourself, about what has been dressed up in lab coats and sold to us as science (as in, only an IDiot questions “science”)?

    –> And more.

    Then, take time to read here, on the Acts 27 case study.

    I do not think anybody comes up smelling like roses on this one.

    KF

  18. 18
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: My more elaborate response (personal, not endorsed by UD, Big Brother): http://kairosfocus.blogspot.co.....zenry.html KF

  19. 19
    Dionisio says:

    KF,

    […] we are back to the Mordecai challenge: why not now? why not here? why not us?

    Good questions.

  20. 20
    kairosfocus says:

    D, yes. We need to ask them, given the issues in what I just put up: http://www.uncommondescent.com.....citizenry/ KF

  21. 21
    Dionisio says:

    KF,

    As you so well summarized the “when?”, “where?” and “who?” in three fundamental “why not…?” challenges, does this question by Mordecai also apply to each and everyone of us at some point in our lifetime?

    And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?

  22. 22
    Dionisio says:

    KF,

    Mordecai also issued this sobering warning:

    “Do not think to yourself that in the [earthly] king’s palace you will escape any more […]”

    Could that also relate to the potential consequences of ignoring the sobering warnings issued by Francis Schaeffer, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, and other serious thinkers, regardless of which side of the political debate one may be at any given point?

  23. 23
    kairosfocus says:

    Text:

    Esther 4:12 And they told Mordecai what Esther had said. 13 Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, “Do not think to yourself that in the king’s palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. 14 For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?” 15 Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai, 16 “Go, gather all the Jews to be found in Susa, and hold a fast on my behalf, and do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my young women will also fast as you do. Then I will go to the king, though it is against the law, and if I perish, I perish.” [ESV]

    In the face of a genocidal threat to a people in exile and captivity, a threat driven by slander and centuries deep blood feud hate.

    The Mordecai challenge is a challenge at kairos, with everything on the line.

    Today, our civilisation stands at kairos.

    Who will stand?

    Today?

    KF

  24. 24
    Dionisio says:

    KF,

    Couldn’t the loud cry be heard long ago even in some popular secular lyrics in the second half of last century?

    The famous English band Pink Floyd’s album “The dark side of the moon” -considered by many critics a progressive / psychedelic rock music- included interesting lyrics. The song “Time”

    examines the manner in which its passage can control one’s life and offers a stark warning to those who remain focused on mundane aspects; it is followed by a retreat into solitude and withdrawal in “Breathe (Reprise)” [Wikipedia]

    The lyrics for that song starts:

    Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
    Fritter and waste the hours in an off-hand way
    Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
    Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

    Emphasis added.
    Note the spiritual vacuum in that loud cry:
    Waiting for someone or something to show you the way
    We try filling that vacuum with all kinds of things (drugs, alcohol, instant gratification fleshy pleasures, travels, exotic religions, confusing philosophical ideas, etch) to no avail. All in vane.
    There’s only one true Way. The rest are fake.
    It’s the superior duty of Christ’s followers to proclaim that Way to the lost world.
    But we must start from ourselves. Full integrity is the high requirement of the day.
    Our “locker room talk” must be exactly the same in substance as our most public expressions.
    We can’t have any credibility if we point to a Way we ourselves don’t want to follow accurately.
    Being sinners eternally reconciled by God’s amazing grace, we must truly confess and repent of our faults. We must forgive as we are forgiven. We must dispense grace as we have greatly benefited from it too.
    Let the world deal directly with our Creator.
    We proclaim the Good News, but not mediate, and much less impose their acceptance. We leave that to Christ Himself.

    PS. When the above mentioned musical album was released I was studying engineering in college, at the bottom of the spiritual abyss, completely lost and totally blind.

  25. 25
    harry says:

    Here is how it looks to this Christian:

    Trump, for all his vulgarity and worldliness, is still working with Pro-Lifers and has promised to appoint Supreme Court justices who will reverse Roe vs. Wade. Hillary is a staunch advocate and supporter of Roe. What does this mean for Christians?

    First we must get the big picture. Every age has its bigotry, which sometimes results in things like slavery and Jew-gassing being “legalized.” The day will come when our butchering of children in the womb, children who are often as old or older than babies routinely cared for in modern newborn intensive care units, will be looked upon with the horror with which we now see slavery and Jew-gassing. The children being murdered today are the victims of the bigotry of our times. There is no political issue that can have a higher priority for Christians than ending the “legal” murder of innocent humanity by the millions.

    Genuine Christians understand the essentials of morality, fundamentals like “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Fake Christians, like Tim Kaine, fail to apply this basic morality to innocent children in the womb, the least of the brethren of Christ, who are “legally” murdered in our midst by the thousands every day. Nor do they apply basic morality to how they vote. For the genuine Christians of our times the thinking behind their voting decision, which takes into consideration the essentials of morality, goes something like this:

    What if it were me and mine who were the victims of the bigotry of the times? What if it were me and mine who it was “legal” for others to choose to kill? What if there was one candidate who many Christians didn’t like for various reasons, but who was at least working with those Christians who wanted the law to once again reflect the intrinsic illegality of killing innocent human beings. He promises to appoint Supreme Court justices who will overturn the ruling that “legalized” killing people like me and mine. There is another candidate who has made it clear that she is an advocate and staunch supporter of that ruling. And there are third party candidates who there is no reason to believe will actually win. Who would I hope the Christians would vote for?

    After such consideration of basic morality, genuine Christians then know how they should vote. They will do for others what they would want others to do for them. Not voting wouldn’t be an option.

    There is no moral choice except to vote for Trump. Supposedly Christian intellectuals who lead Christians to believe any other choice is legitimate might as well officially announce their renunciation of Christ in the least of His brethren, and shout “Crucify Him! Butcher Him in His least brethren! We have no king but Caesar!” That is not hyperbole. That is a fact. Caesar has claimed for himself authority over innocent human life that belongs only to God. We are to render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and unto God that which belongs to God. To do otherwise is idolatry. Legitimizing voting for one who is a staunch of advocate of state authorized murder of innocent humanity, besides signaling one’s approval of Caesar’s usurpation of God’s authority, is in fact shouting “We have no king but Caesar” and handing Christ in His least brethren over to Caesar’s executioners.

    The contemporary bigotry, the victims of which are innocent children, will eventually be dispelled. The supposedly Christian intellectuals’ intentional legitimization of the bigotry of our times by refusing to come down hard on the side of life and on the side of Christ Himself in the least of His brethren will scandalize future generations of Christians for centuries to come.

    The election of Hillary will result in packing the Supreme Court with justices – who will remain there for decades – who will further entrench and expand the “legal” murder of innocent humanity in American society, which will lead to the murder of countless more innocent human beings who will be spared if Trump gets to appoint Supreme Court justices. A very reasonable case could be made that the election of Hillary will put the final nail in the coffin of the great American experiment in government the very purpose of which is to protect the inalienable rights of humanity.

    For any genuine Christian the decision to vote, and to vote for Trump, is a “no brainer.”

    Am I being too simplistic? Google up

    abortion trash

    and then click Images. You will find a photograph of a large trash container filled with dead babies bigger than newborns you have held in your arms. Literally millions of such children have been murdered since the world-wide anti-life juggernaut began its evil destruction of the traditional Western ethic and civilization itself. I am not being too simplistic. I am addressing the simple reality. Read Matthew 25:31-46 for a very simple discussion of the consequences of abandoning Christ in the least of His brethren. The Scriptures make clear that idolatry doesn’t end well, either.

  26. 26
    kairosfocus says:

    D,

    yes, even the songs testify against us.

    H,

    Sobering. I am on record here at UD and elsewhere that the mass slaughter of posterity in the womb is the pivotal, mind blinding and conscience benumbing evil of our time. It is the worst holocaust in history, taking Guttmacher’s 50+ mn per year globally and using a simple linear growth model for 40 years (likely conservative), we easily see 800+ millions.

    We are a dark, evil age and should hang our heads in shame before our ancestors whom we love to denigrate.

    We must all wake up and stop this evil, first by speaking the truth firmly but respectfully, and then working to change hearts, minds and laws back to sanity.

    KF

  27. 27
    Pindi says:

    Harry, if you believe anything Trump says, you are extremely naive. “Grab em by the {snip, family friendly discussion please, KF]”. This is the guy you are endorsing?

  28. 28
    AhmedKiaan says:

    No real Christian can vote for Trump. He ticks off each of the 7 deadly sins, with relish.

  29. 29
    kairosfocus says:

    Pindi & AK, this thread is not about either endorsing or opposing any particular pol. As you will see in the OP, I amended it to make that doubly clear. I will however suggest that it is utterly unwise to allow a media veto on those the agit prop operators commonly termed journalists or editors do not like if at some point in the past 30 years they could have been taped with a locker-room potty mouth “one that got away” embellished tale. Where also, the propagandistic manipulation of a silly boast about how star power gives advantages in the foolish seduction game tracing to the 1960’s playboy philosophy (as though HIV-AIDS in the 80’s did not put an end to that suicidal party) — since apologised for (one hopes he has learned some sharp lessons about humility, ethics and the dangerous power of the tongue for good or evil) — into implied moral equivalency with rape, exposure and intimidation to silence “bimbos” is telling. Multiplied by calculated distraction from shocking national security violations that will cost our civilisation dear. (I point here, here and here for some initial documentation of concerns and here for perspective; these views and perspectives are personal and are given to balance what you have said, they are not endorsed by UD.) The reality is, the American public faces a choice of which of evils is lesser, is less likely to spin ruinously out of control. Itself, a reflection of a generation’s march of determined, ruinous folly. Where, because of the power of the USA in the world, that march of folly has brought our civilisation to the edge of a crumbling cliff. It is an open question as to whether we can get back to safe ground, and it looks like the odds are against. I suggest you would be better advised to ponder the geostrategic perils we face as a planet at this point (just scroll up to the OP and look at the infographic), and sober up. I openly confess extreme pessimism, our stubborn folly has carried us to a dangerous brink that is liable to cost us dear for generations to come. Sophia, in Proverbs 1, is shaking her head (cf the other thread, here: http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-619074 )KF

  30. 30
    kairosfocus says:

    Harry, I have to say much the same. This thread is not about endorsing or opposing any given pol or party. The issue is our civilisation and the agendas and trends that have brought us to a sad pass. The onward challenge is, the way out of a very ticklish situation — we tickled a fire-breathing dragon’s tail and he is now waking up grumpy. How can we back away from this without being burned to a crisp? That is going to be tough, and no one pol or party can save us from consequences of stubborn folly: http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-619074 KF

  31. 31
    Vy says:

    Harry, if you believe anything Trump says, you are extremely naive.

    Er, nope. Naive would be supporting the pretentious hypocrite Hillary Clinton.

    This is the guy you are endorsing?

    Trump is obviously vulgar and exceedingly dumb but he’s far better than that Obama puppet (or was she the puppeteer?) who has the potential to enact laws that make the immoral laws endorsed by the demented Obama look meager.

    They’re both horrible individuals but at least Trump doesn’t pretend to be something he’s not.

  32. 32
    harry says:

    kairosfocus, God bless you!

    Keep up the good work.

    Thanks for your persistent, consistent explanations of the reasonableness of theism and Christianity, and the irrationality of the alternatives.

    I think the judgment of God is coming upon contemporary civilization very soon. When it does may we be found proclaiming the truth and defending and caring for His Son in the very least of His brethren.

  33. 33

    As far as I’m concerned, anyone who is voting for anything other than national policy positions as outlined in each candidate’s own materials is part of the political problem.

    I don’t care what kind of personality either candidate has. If you read and support a candidate’s national policy positions, then you should vote for that candidate. Period.

    The current viable candidates here in the USA could not have more clear or more contradictory policy positions, which should render most everyone’s decision relatively easy to make.

  34. 34
    john_a_designer says:

    For the first time since 1976, when I cast my vote for Jimmy Carter, I will not be voting for president. Here is the reason why:

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hfir.....S+LION+(8).png

    BTW my freedom to vote is also a freedom NOT to vote and that is what I am choosing to do this year.

  35. 35
    harry says:

    William J Murray @34,

    The choices couldn’t be more clear. Even the godless should be able understand the following:

    — Humanity precedes the state and brings it into existence.

    — Therefore the state exists for humanity, not humanity for the state.

    — Therefore it is humanity that bestows and withdraws the state’s right to exist, not the state that bestows and withdraws humanity’s right to exist.

    — Therefore the state simply has no authority to “legalize” the murder of innocent humanity.

    Civilization is a rejection of savagery where the biggest, meanest guy takes the lives of others when that serves his purposes. This is accomplished by humanity forming a state that is more powerful than the biggest meanest guy, the very purpose of which is to ensure and protect the intrinsic rights to life, liberty and legitimately obtained property of all humanity.

    One candidate’s national policy positions are in favor of the continuation of the contemporary “legalization” of savagery.

    The other candidate is working with those who intend to restore civilization.

  36. 36
    Pindi says:

    Harry:

    “I think the judgment of God is coming upon contemporary civilization very soon. When it does may we be found proclaiming the truth and defending and caring for His Son in the very least of His brethren.”

    I wonder how many people have expressed this over the last 2,000 years? But no, I’m sure you’re the one who will finally get it right…..

    What a dire death cult you lot believe in.

  37. 37
    kairosfocus says:

    Harry,

    Per Rom 1, judgement is already here, consequences of our willful lawlessness.

    Pindi,

    With 800+ MILLION unborn children slaughtered in the worst holocaust in history, if God does not move to active judgement of our civilisation soon, he owes Sodom an apology.

    Four horsemen are about to ride, bigtime.

    KF

  38. 38
    Vy says:

    What a dire death cult you lot believe in.

    You mean The League of Militant Atheists?

  39. 39
    Pindi says:

    KF, precisely what do you mean by “soon”? This year? Next year? I’m just wondering at what point you will confront God and tell him he owes Sodom an apology.

  40. 40
    kairosfocus says:

    Pindi, ask the Mullahs about when they are ready to roll as vanguard for the 12th Imam emerging from his cave or well, duly aided by the was it US$400 mn cash ransom just paid. KF

  41. 41
    rvb8 says:

    Catastrophism, in the thelogical sense, not the geological sense seems to underpin more and more posts here.

    Is it me or is there a ‘lip-smackingly’ gleeful hope for a quick rapture, and now? Do I detect a Tertullian desire for a front row seet at ‘judgement’, when I and my fellow atheists are brought to accounts?

    If so, grow up!

  42. 42
    Pindi says:

    rvb8, yes you are detecting that, but nothing new there. There have been these kind of raving lunatics desperately believing in, predicting, and hoping for the end of the world, ever since humans invented speech I would imagine. Certainly it is prevalent during the period of recorded history.

  43. 43
    kairosfocus says:

    RVB8 and Pindi:

    I suggest you address the concens here in the other thread before trying to namecall as lunatics and [implied, ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked Creationist] catastrophists:

    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-619145

    As in, oh those lunatics Mackinder, Spykman and co.

    Not to mention, oh Guttmacher.

    Then there is that ill-informed senile ignoramus, Mikhail Gorbachev.

    For deep background, try Plato’s Parable of the Cave, from the perspective of looking at the apparatus of putting on the deceptive shadow shows confused for reality by those subjected to manipulation, then bring on his parable of the ship of state noticing how the navigator is treated by the mutineers. Then, read Ac 27 and see a live case of moneybags and technico manipulation and what it led to — as in, march of folly.

    While you are at it, ponder for us on the history of the near collapse of Rome in the 200’s and the onward play-out to 476. Tell us, did the Barbarians who overthrew the Empire fight their way in all the way from the Rhine, bleeding all the way? Why, or why not. Explain also in a nutshell what happened over the next 1,000 years or so. Why.

    Do tell us, and let us know why it is that we have been warned by so many that the lessons of sound history were bought with blood and tears so those who refuse to learn and heed them doom themselves to pay that ruinous price over and over again?

    Put up, or stand exposed as irresponsible Internet trolls parroting dismissive and denigratory talking points rather than dealing with sobering geostrategic and civilisational issues on the table. In a context where we have a from the horse’s mouth admission of sobering degrees of manipulation of the “unaware and compliant” public.

    KF

  44. 44
    rvb8 says:

    Kairos,

    I know and love ‘The Myth of the Cave’. I think you believe that the three manacled prisoners in the allegory are metaphors for, atheists, darwinbots, and materialists? Funnily enough from our point of view, the three prisoners are, the gullible, the misinformed, and the willfully ignorant.

    Yes, as an atheist I plug my ears to ideas that go against my ‘religion’. Although I do visit Townhall (not recommended), Evolutionnews, Answersingenesis, and here, and Fox(also not recommended) regularly. Nothing new yet. Except of course for explosive rebuttal upon new scientific discoveries erroding your POV.

  45. 45
    kairosfocus says:

    RVB8,

    Really!

    The Parable of the Cave is 2350+ years old, and though evolutionary materialism by Plato’s testimony in The Laws Bk X, was established as an avant garde fad in his time, Darwin lay 2000+ years in the future.

    Next, there are not three prisoners in the cave, it speaks about a community, about denizens. It is first a parable that is tied to metaphysical themes of enlightenment and the theory of the forms; with the philosopher- teacher- mentor as liberator. The Ship brings to bear how said philosopher faces challenges in equipping the young and bright to be true followers of wisdom to the point where there are serious challenges with those who wish to vie for political power, even if they have picked up a smattering of learning. Only those who have been touched to the quick are really worthy of trust. All of this is by way of warning on the dangers of various polities, with a particular eye to what democracies can become and how they tend to fail. Which means BTW that the framers of modern democratic self government, carefully put in checks and balances to stabilise, and reckoned on the significance of the transforming impact of the gospel and print in a community.

    But also the parable works on other levels, tied to the issue of social organisation and the problem of dominant narratives confused for reality. There are after all, shadow-shows put on for the benefit of the denizens, and the first step of enlightenment for the escapee is to be made aware of how one was misled. Then, by hard ascent the one set free is brought to experience and in experiencing confirm as real, the world that his fellows are locked out of.

    In returning in pity, however, he learns of some not so happy implications of indoctrination, envy, selfish ambition and toxic politics. Still dazzled by going back into the cave he is made to participate in a contest of shadow shows, and of course does poorly. Those who are judging by darkness they take for light then declare that he was taken up and made into an idiot, so the next one to try to set one free, they will pounce on and kill.

    Echoes of the fate of Socrates are there of course.

    This theme of enlightenment (thus of epistemology, the critical study of knowledge and its possibility etc) has haunted the West’s thought ever since.

    Jesus answered decisively, and — he grew up 5 miles from one of the Dekapolis Gk states in C1 Palestine (which is where carpenter/builder jobs were to be had) — I think very much as a conscious reply, in his most famous sermon:

    Matt 6:19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[e] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

    22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

    24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

    In this context, the challenge comes to you to beware of despising as inferiors those who think differently than you do, especially those of us who have a modicum of education and experience. In particular, I have found over the years that it is a common resort to exert double standards of warrant regarding what is accepted a knowledge, so tat one is inconsistently hyperskeptical when one does not wish to be persuaded that a particular claim is perhaps better warranted than one is wont to accept. Elevatorgate is a trivial example in point.

    When it comes to truth and knowledge, truth is that which corresponds accurately to reality. Thus, if one instead makes a false template the yardstick of what one will believe or dismiss, then by swallowing falsity and using this to judge the truth, one will necessarily dismiss the truth.

    That’s why Sophia warned long ago: there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of that way are the ways of death.

    Deception, and its fruit.

    Hence, the dangers of marches of folly such as our civilisation is currently hell bent on. Conquest can be by manipulation and trickery (as Hitler forever proved in the run-up to the full force of WW2). War follows, and with it economic dislocation, famine, and deadly diseases leading to death. Indeed WW2 killed oh 25+ million Russians, most of them by famine and the diseases that ravage starving bodies.

    The issue then is, knowledge, warranted credibly true belief.

    The onward issue is to learn how to think straight, guided by first principles of right reason and onward results. Where for instance, science is often not capable of even moral certainty, a level of warrant where one is utterly irresponsible not to treat results as true. When it comes to media spin games, one is ill advised to simply assume one has cornered the market on the truth, or that media outlets one despises are to be sneered at. Instead, as I pointed out in the other thread — interesting how you try to pick here to raise challenges answered there — we need to assess news, views, education, policy claims, arguments etc via a framework of analysis. This allows us to build up a picture of articles that are sound and sources that are credible. And, a serious exercise like that will soon reveal that it is not the right wing as such which is to be viewed with wariness, but the general media culture. Further to this, that post takes up a smoking gun admission, decodes it and applies it to the big trends of our generation. We are in deep trouble.

    (This Townhall article passes the test better than most major news and views coverage I have seen: http://townhall.com/columnists.....e-n2231915 Also notice, its account of Trump’s October surprise reply lawsuit against the NYT: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/c.....r-n2231825 . . . in a climate where the US law is so bad (having been modified repeatedly from the post modernist activist judge judicial bench) that public figures effectively have next to no protection against libels. Thirdly — I am using the principle that three witnesses are better than two — this commentary on possible . . . legally, extremely unsafe . . . use of executive orders to make end runs around constitutional provisions raises very serious questions about having a lawful temperament in governance: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/m.....s-n2231727 VDH, who chooses to publish a regular column at the same Townhall, has a sobering comparison to the “dark” middle ages here: http://townhall.com/columnists.....a-n2231213 )

    As for evolutionary materialistic scientism dressed up in the fashionable lab coat, this is self-referentially incoherent and self-falsifying from the outset (as well as utterly amoral):

    http://iose-gen.blogspot.com/2.....ml#slf_ref

    It is time for you and others to get out of the evolutionary materialist, scientistic secular humanist cave of shadow shows confused for reality.

    It is time for our civilisation to face the facts about the worst holocaust in history; our war against innocent posterity in the womb. When we gather enough courage to face that, we will see how far we have warped our civilisation, and the march of folly that has ensued.

    We stand, heedlessly, on a crumbling and dangerously unstable cliff’s edge.

    It is time to try to get to safer ground.

    KF

  46. 46
  47. 47
  48. 48

    kairosfocus: Well done, as usual. School is in session for the poor fool. He is listening and learning…even if only subconsciously. That is a good thing.

  49. 49
    kairosfocus says:

    RVB8 & Pindi (et al), I am still waiting for a substantial comment on the geostrategic concerns and historical background I have pointed to. Hint, C20 history of major conflicts did pivot on the issues and zones Mackinder et al foresaw, underscoring how the rise of rail and telecomms opened up resource spaces in ways that gave opportunities to continental powers (Germany and Russia) to challenge the maritime alliances. Note, how Stalin moved key factories and centres East during the German invasion of 1941, and the German Ural Bomber projects. Note the geostrategic moves he made 1943 – 49 and how that led to the NATO-Warsaw Pact conflicts, then how that spread out into rimlands and choke points. I am putting on the table that Africa is a continental resource base that is open for raping, and the rimlands belt in the Middle East is turning into a hot zone, a pivot area with its own rising powers. With the Nile corridor a key overland access route. I am projecting the ME pivot area and Africa as major loci for geostrategic conflict in this century; as in the four horsemen are already riding and are likely to spiral out of control: conquest, war, famine and deadly spreading disease. I am also concerned about implications of settlement jihad in a context of evident civilisational failure of the West starting with demographic collapse, worldview disintegration and clutching the asps of Frankfurt School derived, Alinsky influenced cultural marxism and radically secularist, inherently amoral and self-falsifying evolutionary materialistic scientism to our collective breasts. I am looking at how rapidly the Arab spring turned Islam-IST winter, with the check in Egypt due to a military coup. If you disagree, kindly let us know why, on realistic and substantial grounds — your ilk have had months to follow up on the sketch in the OP for one. Sneering dismissals are not good enough by a long shot. KF

  50. 50

    kairosfocus @ 50: Even if they do respond it will only be more atheistic rubbish. But hey, we all enjoy a good laugh. Come back boys…learn something.

  51. 51
    kairosfocus says:

    TWSYF, my big concern is why the current US presidential campaign seems to have by and large skirted these sorts of concerns. I am sure that in the proverbial smoke filled back rooms of the think tanks (including relevant back-offices of the Pentagon and war colleges) these and linked themes are central and are being wargamed at policy-military synthesis levels. I am sure that if such is not being discussed in a climate where the major media are in more or less obvious collusion, it is because it is seen that this discussion leads hoi polloi where powerful interests and backers do not wish we the sheeple (all unaware and compliant) to go — shades of Ac 27. But at the same time, these issues are patently and soberingly pivotal. It is time for us as concerned citizens of our civilisation to take matters into our own minds, hearts and voices. Meanwhile, that nasty reek in the background is coming from 800+ MILLION murdered unborn infants, the worst holocaust in history and the central evil of our time. Such massive blood guilt HAS to be tainting everything, and it can only be sustained under false colours of law through the backing of huge money and influence that is hidden behind closed doors. Judging by the ruthless use of scandals in recent decades, I don’t doubt that a lot of blackmail and intimidation are involved. If you think the now 11 year old potty mouth locker room boasting tape was not held against the eventuality of “needing” it, you are exceedingly naive about ruthless, corrupt elites: never promote whom you cannot control, demote or destroy. Something is truly rotten in the state of our civilisation tracing directly to the apostasy of the elites who would not have the author of the Sermon on the Mount to rule over them. Alfred the Great of the West Saxons knew better when he and his witans turned to Moyse and to Jesus and his apostles to lay the foundation of law in his Book of Dooms, the historic root of the Common Law system. And yes, they literally started from the ten commandments, one of which is, thou shalt do no murder, and another, that thou shalt bear no false witness. KF

  52. 52
  53. 53
    kairosfocus says:

    Pindi, RVB8 and ilk: If we are indulging in mindless, superstitious, bound to fail empty apocalypticism because we don’t like the way things are going, surely there will be substantial evidence and argument to back that up. I am in effect going deeper on the geostrategic inter-connectedness of two of Mr Gorbachev’s points: nukes + terrorism, i/l/o current trends. (And, blend in was it US$1.7 BILLIONS just flown into Iran and paid in raw cash to the Mullahs who have been the main sponsors of terrorism as well as seeking nukes in order to be a fit vanguard for the re-emerging 12th imam, the Mahdi Shia-style.) I can broaden Mr Gorbachev’s third point of priority concern, as when I worked with sustainable development in a centre for such, we analysed the environment in terms of three interacting domains: biophysical/ natural, sociocultural and econ-policy. Since, I have found this highly fruitful for looking at policy-level problematiques (thickets of interacting, mutually reinforcing problems that ride a business as usual [BAU] road to ruin; cf. OP). My assessment is all of these are at work, and portend a very dangerous future. If I am wrong, especially geostrategically, surely there will be good substantial reasons for why the road ahead will be smooth sailing. So, let us know, surely an IDiot like me MUST be an utter ignoramus and dimwit. Or else, demonstrably deluded. That is what you have implied, now I am challenging you to substantiate. Nasty talking point rhetorical games are not good enough, substantiate or else stand exposed as supercilious and sneering enablers of a BAU road to ruin in defiance of many sobering warning signs. KF

  54. 54

    Pindi, rvb8 and ilk are [SNIP: inappropriate language, kindly restrain yourself. KF].

  55. 55
    rvb8 says:

    I am always impressed by the boundless energy of your posts. How you are able to sweep world history, current events,Stalin (where’s Hitler?), evolution, and philosophy, into an ideological grab bag of fear and intolerance. This narrative is currently destroying Trump; you might want to dial down the fanatacism, it’s spooky. That goes for BA as well.

    There is an editors note prefacing your contribution here, explaining that as an organisation with tax breaks linked to their impartiality regarding political discourse, they are not allowed to show preferrance for one candidate or the other. Unfortunately this is what it is, a bald faced lie. This organization, and you, are Trump officianados, are you not? Remember, lying is a sin!

    When I read yur posts on the immanent collapse of western culture, via the invasion of Islam, and increased abortion, I wonder if you actually believe this. I do agree with you however, the world is indeed doomed. Not by the failing, flayling West however, but by our evolved sense of entitlement, our greed, our callous disregard for human life, and our callous disregard for the misery we inflict on unwanted children; abortion as a means of sustaining humanity.

    Yes TWSYF, I am indeed a small cat! I would not die for my flag, country, or religion (I have none). But I would die (I hope I have the courage) die for an idea, such as those written in your constitution, everything else, god, religion, faith etc is small besides.

    Finally, let me help you with Plato, you seem to have an overly confused grasp, of a very simple metaphor. “Education and knowledge set you free, when these are retarded or forbidden, uninformed misery ensues.”

  56. 56
    kairosfocus says:

    RVB8,

    Sadly, predictably sneering dismissal, joined to refusal to look at the facts and concerns on the table in a substantial way.

    First, I point to the toll of 800+ million of our GLOBAL posterity, so no, it is not the West specifically in the face of Islam; though abortion does contribute to the suicidal demographic collapse we are seeing. I spoke rather, explicitly to the distortion of law, thought, conscience, state, education, media and worse to sustain such a dreadful policy. The central, blood-guilt driven perverting evil of our time. The strawman fails.

    Here is my actual thought-connexion on that, from St Paul:

    Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds.

    18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

    20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. [ESV]

    And yes, hardened hearts can and do convert endarkenment into false light, aided and abetted by false shadow-shows posing as education, news and informed views, as is so blatantly on display just now. Sound reasoning guided by awakened — not benumbed and besotted — conscience, will help the willing to see the apparatus of manipulation and turn away from a Tuchmann march of folly. (Where, Ac 27 is a solid historically anchored answer to Plato’s parable of the mutinous ship of state.)

    Where also, evolutionary- materialistic- scientism- and- associated- radical- secularism (yes, in our time a unified whole) is irretrievably self-falsifying and utterly amoral at the root, with Plato having long since warned against the consequences of evolutionary materialist-energised “the highest right is might” nihilism in The Laws, Bk X, 2350+ years ago.

    When it comes to Islam-ISM, it obviously does not trouble you to see Iran at nuke threshold and experimenting with ballistic missiles, or with a renewed empire stretching to the E Mediterranean littoral already. Evidently 2500 years of Persian history moves you not at all. Nor does the transfer of what, US$ 1.7 BILLION as de facto ransom money to the biggest state-sponsor of terrorism in the past generation. And, we only mention the dozens of thousands of rockets pointing at Israel, in the hands of Iranian proxies.

    As for wider Islam-ISM, the Muslim Brotherhood’s The Project (a 100- year global subjugation programme that chillingly echoes that first century of expansion from the 630’s to the 730’s) obviously means naught to you. Nor have you bothered to reckon with settlement jihad or the presence of an obvious agent of influence at the elbow of what the betting markets predict will be most likely the next occupant of the most powerful political office in the world. Not to mention the decades deep, oil fuelled lines of influence otherwise. I will only mention that spend on the Dawah by the oil-rich sheiks in recent decades — not even the jihad — exceeds US$ 100 billions.

    Where, the geography and history of the Middle East, Balkans, Central Europe, Austria, and northern Africa speak for themselves. The triangle from Egypt up through Anatolia and on to the Bosporus speaks for itself as far back as the Persian invasions of Greece; much less, the lessons of 1529 and 1683.

    A demograhically decaying West faces unprecedented threats, with Iran at minimum at nuke threshold. Africa is unquestionably resource-rich and open for rape (again). The Islam-ISTS, unsurprisingly, have targetted it to be the first 100% Islamic continent. Echoes of Mackinder et al are obvious, the Middle Eastern part of the Rimlands of Eurasia are a pivot area and point to Europe one way, to Africa the other. Continental resources energise climbs to global power, as we have repeatedly seen since the Spanish seized Latin America 500 years ago. Of course, the resource-hungry Chinese are also in the Africa game, and are pushing South across a resource-rich sea.

    Multiply this by Gorbachev’s cluster of concerns: nukes, terrorism, environment. Iran joins the first two, and current follies are bringing NATO into clash with Russia under Czar Putin I, with the immediate concern being an announced US threat of cyber attack on Russia, where the US itself has said that under certain circumstances such is causus belli.

    Russia is indeed a wild-card.

    Where also, mis-management of our biophysical, socio-cultural and econ-policy heritage, surroundings and stewardship responsibilities compounds that pattern.

    But of course, the mad march of folly must go on.

    It is high time that we sobered up and backed away from the crumbling edge of a cliff.

    KF

    PS: Your failure to realise that the issue I inadvertently ran into and (on learning) pulled back from was in effect to double dis-endorse thus double oppose, is instructive. (Big Brother watching, that is a personal view long since held as fair comment for cause, not the position of UD. I make this much explicit in answer to insinuation of deceit on my part.) All I can safely say is that the breakdown of quality of available leadership is palpable across our whole civilisation including its leading countries. I cannot but point to the distorting influence of the central evil of our time as a material factor in that acute loss of ability to listen to Sophia. She has warned, and again let us hear her speak:

    Prov 1:20
    Wisdom cries aloud in the street,
    in the markets she raises her voice;
    21
    at the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
    at the entrance of the city gates she speaks:
    22
    “How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?
    How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing
    and fools hate knowledge?
    23
    If you turn at my reproof,[a]
    behold, I will pour out my spirit to you;
    I will make my words known to you.
    24
    Because I have called and you refused to listen,
    have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
    25
    because you have ignored all my counsel
    and would have none of my reproof,
    26
    I also will laugh at your calamity;
    I will mock when terror strikes you,
    27
    when terror strikes you like a storm
    and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
    when distress and anguish come upon you.
    28
    Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
    they will seek me diligently but will not find me.
    29
    Because they hated knowledge
    and did not choose the fear of the Lord,
    30
    would have none of my counsel
    and despised all my reproof,
    31
    therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way,
    and have their fill of their own devices.
    32
    For the simple are killed by their turning away,
    and the complacency of fools destroys them;
    33
    but whoever listens to me will dwell secure
    and will be at ease, without dread of disaster.” [ESV]

    In the end, it is as simple and as predictable as that.

    PPS: I add overnight: Who was it that led the two German grabs for the E Europe pivot area and the Eurasian heartland, in 1914- and in 1941-?

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