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Bateson on common descent: No evidence but no alternative

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A friend writes to offer this excerpt from British biologist William Bateson (1861–1926):

In what follows it will be assumed that the Doctrine of Descent is true. It should be admitted from the first that the truth of the doctrine has never been proved. There is nevertheless a great balance of evidence in his favor, but it finds its support not so much in direct observation as in the difficulty of forming any alternative hypothesis. The Theory of Descent involves and
asserts that all living things are genetically connected, and this principle is at least not contrary to observation; while any alternative hypothesis involves the idea of Separate Creation which by common consent is now recognized as absurd. In favor of the Doctrine of Common Descent there is a balance of evidence; it is besides accepted by most naturalists; lastly if it is not true we can get no further with the problem; but inasmuch as it is unproven it is right that we should explicitly recognize that it is in part an assumption and that we have adopted it as a postulate. – From Bateson, W. 1894. Materials for the Study of Variation, Treated with
Especial Regard to Discontinuity in the Origin of Species. [online] Macmillan,
London.

That was the late 19th century view, for sure. But it assumes certain things, including that evolution is almost all Darwinian. But what if …

Craig Venter

Take that away, and we look at a very different picture. For example, genome mapper Craig Venter (no slouch he) made Richard Dawkins incredulous a couple years back by denying common descent. As William Dembski puts it there:

What’s significant is not so much whether Venter is right (I think he is), but what his dissent from Darwinian orthodoxy suggests about the disarray in the study of biological origins. If common descent is up for grabs, what isn’t? Imagine physics in the century after Newton questioning whether there even is such a force as gravity or suggesting that really it decomposes into several different types of gravitational forces.

Venter’s flight from orthodoxy is even more drastic. Common descent is the sanctum sanctorum of evolutionary biology. If scientists of Venter’s stature are now desecrating it, what’s next?

Well, come to think of it, Carl Woese (1928-2012), who discovered the domain of life called Archaea, and regretted that he had never fetched the vacuum cleaner for the spook of Darwin, was no fan either. Again, no slouch.

That’s a risk for a historical thesis that depends on the assumption that no alternative explanation makes any sense. Later, smart people can come up with alternative explanations in some cases. Then it’s all up for grabs.

And Bateson has only the likes of Panda’s Thumb or BioLogos to defend him.

Rotten luck, but his achievements remain.

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Comments
Joe: The DESIGN has entailments, which means ID has entailments. What are the entailments of an unknown designer of ID? What is an unknown designer with unknown capabilties and unknown goals unable to do? How do we know that humans were capable of building Stonehenge? HINT: Stonehenge We have evidentary knowledge of human capabilities, we have evidence that groups of people are capable of coordinated effort. We have evidence that humans existed at that time and place in groups.velikovskys
March 28, 2015
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Mapou: velikovskys, you’re boring as hell. Why don’t you go fly a kite or mow someone’s lawn or something? Ahahahahahvelikovskys
March 28, 2015
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The DESIGN has entailments, which means ID has entailments. Unguided evolution does not. How do we know that humans were capable of building Stonehenge? HINT: StonehengeJoe
March 28, 2015
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Joe: Unpredictable is exactly what unguided evolution is. Maybe, but so is intelligent design .Especially without any knowledge of the designer's capabilitiesvelikovskys
March 28, 2015
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SA: If Ventner denies common descent, he might have some data that doesn’t fit. The term ‘universal commmon descent’ was invented because the data didn’t fit ‘common descent’ (which meant universal and now apparently doesn’t). Venter: I have come to think of life in much more a gene-centric view than even a genome-centric view, although it kind of oscillates. And when we talk about the transplant work, genome-centric becomes more important than gene-centric. From the first third of the Sorcerer II expedition we discovered roughly 6 million new genes that has doubled the number in the public databases when we put them in a few months ago, and in 2008 we are likely to double that entire number again. We're just at the tip of the iceberg of what the divergence is on this planet. We are in a linear phase of gene discovery maybe in a linear phase of unique biological entities if you call those species, discovery, and I think eventually we can have databases that represent the gene repertoire of our planet. One question is, can we extrapolate back from this data set to describe the most recent common ancestor. I don't necessarily buy that there is a single ancestor. It’s counterintuitive to me. I think we may have thousands of recent common ancestors and they are not necessarily so common.velikovskys
March 28, 2015
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velikovskys, you're boring as hell. Why don't you go fly a kite or mow someone's lawn or something?Mapou
March 28, 2015
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You should be more skeptical of what your fellow-travellers say, SA. Venter doesn't deny common descent, and indeed uses the concept in much of his work. I've not read the Cambrian book, Signature in the Cell was so poor I didn't bother with it. But there is plenty of evidence for common descent among Cambrian critters -- not least molecular phylogenies calculated from their descendants!wd400
March 28, 2015
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Unpredictable is exactly what unguided evolution is.Joe
March 28, 2015
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Joe: Many do- cars, PCs, airplanes, jets, bicycles etc. True, but when they don't it does not falsify that they were intelligently designed, that is the whole thing about intelligence. It can be unpredictable, especially when one considers the levels of knowledge that could be acquired in 3 billion years.velikovskys
March 28, 2015
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Ah, the blog with no posts since August 2013.
Pathetic- as if that means something. "Ohs noes Joe, no blog posts since August 2013 so there isn't any evidence for front-loading"???? Really?! ?
One thing not to be found in the book is any evidence supporting the “front loading hypothesis”.
Chapter 7 page 146 "Front-loading evolution"Joe
March 28, 2015
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wd400
Don’t suppose you can mention any of this data that doesn’t fit common descent SA?
I just read this somewhere ...
For example, genome mapper Craig Venter (no slouch he) made Richard Dawkins incredulous a couple years back by denying common descent. As William Dembski puts it there: What’s significant is not so much whether Venter is right (I think he is), but what his dissent from Darwinian orthodoxy suggests about the disarray in the study of biological origins. If common descent is up for grabs, what isn’t?
If Ventner denies common descent, he might have some data that doesn't fit. The term 'universal commmon descent' was invented because the data didn't fit 'common descent' (which meant universal and now apparently doesn't). The emergence of novel body plans at the Cambrian Explosion is an example of data that doesn't fit common descent. It's actually evidence that could support special creation of those initial plans, with intelligence built in for adaptations and development for the future. Darwin's Doubt gives a nice overview on the problems for evolution with the Cambrian fossils. There's really nothing so far as a substantial refutation of Meyer's book.Silver Asiatic
March 28, 2015
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Mapou: Why be intelligent if you can just snap your fingers, eh? Perhaps being intelligent and knowledgable is why you could just snap your fingers, of course we do not know is all intelligent designers have fingers, do we? You believe in magic or something? I You mean that the immaterial can create the material? ID stands for intelligent design, not magic. Since ID says nothing about the how, magic cannot be eliminated if it exists. Intelligent designers use the time honored practice of reusing previous designs. They also create new designs This automatically creates a hierarchy. If older designs no longer exist, there is no hierarchy. I’m sure stupid designers frequently reinvent stuff but the ID hypothesis is about intelligent designers, So stupid intelligent designers falsify ID? not magicians, not stupid designers. Really, miracles out as well?velikovskys
March 28, 2015
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His blog- The Design Matrix- same as his book.Joe
March 28, 2015
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The Design MatrixSilver Asiatic
March 28, 2015
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Why would a designer be limited to a hierarchy? All humans design do not
Many do- cars, PCs, airplanes, jets, bicycles etc.Joe
March 28, 2015
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velikovskys:
Mapou: Intelligent design would be falsified if species could not be classified in a hierarchy. Why would a designer be limited to a hierarchy? All humans design do not It would also be falsified if horizontal gene transfers did not exist. An sufficiently advantaged would have no need to borrow genes A hierarchical classification structure is always the result of design over time. That is because human design is dependent on the capabilities of humans , 3 billions years less advanced than the designer of life. There is no basis for extrapolation. Why design a Model T when you are capable of a Ferrari?
Why be intelligent if you can just snap your fingers, eh? You believe in magic or something? ID stands for intelligent design, not magic. Intelligent designers use the time honored practice of reusing previous designs. This automatically creates a hierarchy. I'm sure stupid designers frequently reinvent stuff but the ID hypothesis is about intelligent designers, not magicians, not stupid designers. Wake up.Mapou
March 28, 2015
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Why design a Model T when you are capable of a Ferrari?
Because not everyone wants a Ferrari- they ain't very useful.Joe
March 28, 2015
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Mapou: Intelligent design would be falsified if species could not be classified in a hierarchy. Why would a designer be limited to a hierarchy? All humans design do not It would also be falsified if horizontal gene transfers did not exist. An sufficiently advantaged would have no need to borrow genes A hierarchical classification structure is always the result of design over time. That is because human design is dependent on the capabilities of humans , 3 billions years less advanced than the designer of life. There is no basis for extrapolation. Why design a Model T when you are capable of a Ferrari?velikovskys
March 28, 2015
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Mung: Yes, if we just ignore the data that fails to confirm the hypothesis of common descent we can aver that the hypothesis of common descent ought to be accepted as true. velikovskys: Or it may be more complicated as it become more specific, many designs are, Could the new data be a problem for ID? Not to worry, data can only confirm, never disconfirm a theory with lack of entailments. ID is not anti-common descent. So no. It may surprise you to hear that I agree with you. I reject evolutionary theory because it lacks a mechanism of disconfirmation. Evolutionary theory has no entailments.Mung
March 27, 2015
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How can we tell if the data fits universal common descent?Joe
March 27, 2015
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Don't suppose you can mention any of this data that doesn't fit common descent SA? Or tell us where shared descent ends and special creation starts?wd400
March 27, 2015
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@73 As I said, common design proposals come in a variety of forms. Front-loading is one of those concepts. Those kinds of ideas are necessary because the observed data does not fit the standard, blind-unguided evolutionary claims. Common design, in some form or combination of forms is a better explanation.Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2015
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REC- Mike Gene is the one to talk to about front-loading. He has provided many examples on his blogJoe
March 27, 2015
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@70 An outline of my points on front-loading: 1) Genetic entropy conflicts with the concept 2) Lack of a single example Do try to reply more completely.....REC
March 27, 2015
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So all the various species just popped into existence?
Why is that the only alternative to universal common descent? Are you narrow-minded or just on some demented agenda? What makes a turtle a turtle? We don't know beyond a turtle develops as the result of successful mating of a male and female turtle. Also there isn't one case of microevolution that can be extrapolated into macroevolution. Different genes are involved. Universal common descent is an interesting but untestable idea.Joe
March 27, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: Today we don’t see conclusive evidence that they do. But all living organisms share some characteristics. This is better explained by common design than by common ancestry from a single node. So all the various species just popped into existence? Not sure what you're saying.Zachriel
March 27, 2015
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REC
Why aren’t we front-loaded for classic seafaring diets, weightlessness, or exposure to man-made chemicals or new diseases?
Why do you think we should be?Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2015
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Zach
If we trace back human and turtle ancestors will they meet somewhere in the past?
Today we don't see conclusive evidence that they do. But all living organisms share some characteristics. This is better explained by common design than by common ancestry from a single node. Convergent evolution and HGT could support multiple trees with completely independent ancestry even from multiple, independent, unique origin of life starting points.Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2015
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"It could be front-loaded, so that all the descent-patterns that follow were anticipated within a range of possible outcomes" UD commenters invoke "front-loading"--the persistence of unused information over millennia, and then genetic entropy the next comment or thread over. If genes aren't selected for,they decay. This has been repeatedly demonstrated. Why aren't we front-loaded for classic seafaring diets, weightlessness, or exposure to man-made chemicals or new diseases? Name one gene in any genome that has no current function in that organisms natural environment but an obvious future one.REC
March 27, 2015
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Asiatic: This would appear in the pattern of common descent, but not as a blind, unintelligent process. Not sure you answered the question. If we trace back human and turtle ancestors will they meet somewhere in the past?Zachriel
March 27, 2015
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