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Denis Noble: Why talk about replacement of Darwinian evolution theory, not extension?

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Royal Society In new book on the Royal Society’s Public Evolution Summit, Oxford’s Denis Noble explains,

The reasons I think we are talking about replacement rather than extension are several. The first is that the exclusion of any form of acquired characteristics being inherited was a central feature of the modern synthesis. In other words, to exclude any form of inheritance that was non-Mendelian, that was Lamarckian-like, was an essential part of the modern synthesis. What we are now discovering is that there are mechanisms by which some acquired characteristics can be inherited, and inherited robustly. So it’s a bit odd to describe adding something like to the synthesis ( i.e., extending the synthesis). A more honest statement is that the synthesis needs to be replaced.

By “replacement” I don’t mean to say that the mechanism of random change followed by selection does not exist as a possible mechanism. But it becomes one mechanism amongst many others, and those mechanisms must interact. So my argument for saying this is a matter of replacement rather than extension is simply that it was adirect intention of those who formulated the modern synthesis to exclude the inheritance of acquired characteristics. (p. 25)

That’s why the fat’s in the fire and smoking hot. Darwinism (or whatever the term du jour is) has been a totalistic system, enforced as such. But the evidence today simply doesn’t support it.

Reading Mazur’s book, I was struck by two things:

The genuinely interesting nature of alternative evolution proposals contrasts sharply with the science media release where fairly dull researchers have come up with a casuistical explanation of how Darwinism can account for various phenomena. And one realizes that for those individuals, that is evolution. That is science. Science is about reaffirming and finding evidence for the teachings of the Great One. And deploring or attacking anyone who doubts his teachings, irrespective of the state of the evidence.

The new approach is not exclusive or totalistic. It does not behave, as Darwinism does, as a metaphysic. Among many assemblies of evidence, some will naturally prevail, as more persuasive than others. But for once, evidence exists to understand living things better rather than to understand Darwin better.

Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets. This’ll be fun.

See also: What to expect from the Royal Society’s public evolution summit November 7-9

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Comments
Thank you, Dionisio. I hope so. AhmedKiaan, But we're friendly ghosts . . . :-)
Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. -Romans 6:11 NASB
-Q Querius
This is like a ghost town. AhmedKiaan
Actually this blog doesn't even show up in google. Lots of dead pages that were last updated in like 2009. AhmedKiaan
Where is everyone going to go if Uncommon Descent is shut down? I google Intelligent Design and this is like the last blog left. AhmedKiaan
Querius You've got a very valid argument. Agree with you. Perhaps some anonymous readers are benefiting from your comments right now and that is a great reason for joy. Well done. Keep it like that. Thank you. Dionisio
Dionisio, First of all, let me acknowledge that I may be completely wrong in my responses. Yes, I agree that DK is blind, hard edged, self-confident, and hurting as we all once were. So, I'm trying an experiment in the theory and hope that maybe I need to plow up the hard soil first, before a seed of faith can be planted. Consider Psalm 18:25-17 (NASB)
With the kind You show Yourself kind; With the blameless You show Yourself blameless; With the pure You show Yourself pure, And with the crooked You show Yourself astute*. For You save an afflicted people, But haughty eyes You abase.
The word translated “astute” is a challenge. In Hebrew, it literally means “twisted,” and in the Septuagint, it reads “You turn aside.” Jesus was pretty rough on the self-righteous Pharisees, asserting that they did the deeds of their father, the devil. And he said that prostitutes and tax collectors were closer to the kingdom of heaven than they were. Maybe the plow is needed in this case. Or maybe I’m dead wrong. If I am wrong, I’m totally willing to apologize. Consider carefully my brother and let me know either way. -Q Querius
Vy and Querius : Your logical arguments are very persuasive. Thank you. Dionisio
BA77, You write very insightful comments, loaded with valuable information. Keep doing it, I like it. Also many onlookers, lurkers, anonymous visitors can read your posts and learn much from them too. Spiritually blind people won't see it. Their minds are set. But their spiritual eyes could get opened eventually. However, not all will get their spiritual vision restored to what it was intended to be. Unfortunately many won't. We sing hallelujah when our spiritual vision got restored, And rejoice, and share the joy. We're sad when we see the lost ones. We are sorrowful yet always rejoicing. Dionisio
BA77, Querius and Vy, Please, let's show grace and compassion for DK, who is a spiritually blind person. Pray for him. Your capacity to see clearly far beyond DK should move you to a merciful attitude, because you are beneficiaries of God's mercy and grace. Now it's time to share that mercy and grace with others. Someday it will be too late. DK is in the desperate situation described by Pink Floyd in their song Time, where they said they were waiting for someone to show them the way. Worse than that, because DK doesn't know he's in that situation. That's a tragedy. DK is not fighting against us, but against his Creator. This is not a battle between DK and us, but between DK's master and ours. Let our Lord take care of this. Let's leave the battle to Him. We know He won already. We know the Way. The only Way. Let's show it to others too! There's nothing else we can do. Thank you. Dionisio
But since real strawmen, i.e. scarecrows, are merely illusions of persons that are created by real people, and yet naturalists claim that 'personhood' is itself illusory, then, by default, does that not make all naturalists strawmen? i.e. make them merely illusions of persons that were created by real people? :) But if naturalists really want to insist, against all reason, that they really don't exist as real people, then at least they can do us Theists a big favor and stop acting like they really do exist. It would make their argument that they don't really exist much more convincing! :) And would also make their argument that they don't really exist much shorter since scarecrows, i.e. illusory people, don't ever argue back to real people trying to convince them that they don't really exist as real people!
Who wrote Richard Dawkins's new book? - October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3 Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
In what should be needless to say, if it is impossible for you to live as if your worldview were actually true then your worldview cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but your worldview must instead be a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
supplement
Philosophical Zombies - cartoon http://existentialcomics.com/comic/11 David Chalmers on Consciousness (Descartes, Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
bornagain77
Vy, Yes, indeed! Daniel King had written
More ad hominems Is that all you have?
Although I do acknowledge that that strawmen and strawwomen are easy to make and are quite fun for people who are entertained by puppets! Sock puppetry comes next, followed by the ink clouds of octopussary. ;-) -Q Querius
But let’s get things straight: Dionisio’s accusations were ad hominem fallacies, not ad hominem attacks.
You seem to be dealing with a strawman. Vy
Querius:
They weren’t ad hominem attacks, it’s not a fraction of the knowledge that Dionisio provides us, and he doesn’t need to “rethink” his experience with Jesus Christ, as neither do bornagain77, nor I.
May the grace of your Lord and Savior shine upon you and elevate your spirit. But let's get things straight: Dionisio's accusations were ad hominem fallacies, not ad hominem attacks. Do you understand the difference? Daniel King
Bob O'H @91: That's fine. No problem. I'll ask Querius to tell me what else I can do to keep myself busy. :) Have a good week. Dionisio
Dionisio @ 84 - As I wrote, I'm not beholden to you, and I'm sorry but I'm not going to spend time explaining what I do - I have a homepage (although it's not up to date, sorry). Bob O'H
Querius, Thank you. Rev. 22:21 Dionisio
Daniel King accused
More ad hominems Is that all you have? You might rethink your position.
They weren't ad hominem attacks, it's not a fraction of the knowledge that Dionisio provides us, and he doesn't need to "rethink" his experience with Jesus Christ, as neither do bornagain77, nor I. -Q Querius
as to: "Contrary to what you may personally believe, bornagain, your opinion is not a fact." At least there is a 'me' with free will, instead of a neuronal illusion with no free will, in my Theistic worldview in order to even be able to form a personal opinion about something in the first place.
“We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: “consciousness is an illusion” A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion… what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? – video 37:51 minute mark Quote: “You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren’t any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,, That’s why I think they find it kind of embarrassing to talk that way. Nobody wants to stand up there and say, “You know, I’m not really here”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let’s Dump Methodological Naturalism – Paul Nelson – September 24, 2014 Excerpt: “Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism (MN). If we say, “We cannot know that a mind caused x,” laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed (the illusion of) you of that event after the fact. “That’s crazy,” you reply, “I certainly did write my email.” Okay, then — to what does the pronoun “I” in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent.,,, some feature of “intelligence” must be irreducible to physics, because otherwise we’re back to physics versus physics, and there’s nothing for SETI to look for.”,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set090071.html And although Dr. Nelson alluded to writing an e-mail, (i.e. creating information), to tie his ‘personal agent’ argument into intelligent design, Dr. Nelson’s ‘personal agent’ argument can easily be amended to any action that ‘you’, as a personal agent, choose to take: “You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed the illusion of you of that event after the fact.” “You didn’t open the door. Physics did, and informed the illusion of you of that event after the fact.” “You didn’t raise your hand. Physics did, and informed the illusion of you of that event after the fact.” “You didn’t etc.. etc.. etc… Physics did, and informed the illusion of you of that event after the fact.”
bornagain77
Dionisio:
But I feel sad for DK. I used to exist in that same state of mind for a substantial portion of the time I’ve been around, totally oblivious to reality. It’s pathetic, because I wasn’t aware of my lost condition. Everything seemed fine from my distorted perspective. However, there’s hope that DK could be rescued from that miserable situation. I know God loves him, because God loves me and I’m not better than DK. DK, you and I were made in God’s image (Imago Dei), hence we all share the same dignity and can have intimate relation with our own Creator. It doesn’t get better than that. I pray that DK’s spiritual eyes get wide open so that he can see the true ultimate reality, defined in the first few verses of the gospel according to the apostle John.
More ad hominems Is that all you have? You might rethink your position. Daniel King
bornagain77:
Daniel King, contrary to what you may personally believe, a statement of a fact is not a personal ad hominem.
Contrary to what you may personally believe, bornagain, your opinion is not a fact. If you really were born yesterday, I can understand your confusion. Daniel King
Bob O'H: Since I've started to like you, specially after your comments @82, I want to show you the answers to some questions I asked you @65, so you see how easy they are:
The following questions were asked to professor L.M. of the U. of T. His answers are publicly available in this site. Now you have the opportunity to answer them too. 6. Do you know exactly how the morphogen gradients are formed? (yes/no) 7. Do you know exactly how the morphogen gradients are interpreted? (yes/no)
The answer to both questions is NO, because nobody knows exactly how the morphogen gradients are formed or interpreted. There are important outstanding questions in that area. In the thread "Mystery at the heart of life" there are several references to very recent papers on this subject. A lot is known, but still far from knowing exactly the whole enchilada. In your case, since this is not your area of expertise, it was obviously easy to realize that the answer is NO. Dionisio
Bob O'H @82: Thank you for writing back. Please, forgive me if I wrote anything that sounded 'insulting' to you. That was not my intention and I don't have any right to insult anybody here or anywhere else. You mentioned a few interesting things related to the scientific work you do: @60:
Going through my inbox just now, I’ve been sent some data on an experiment in canine psychology, got emails from colleagues about an analysis I sent them last night about Mongolian livestock, and was CC’ed a decision on a manuscript I reviewed. That’s just overnight. So the reason I don’t participate in every thread is that I’m busy actually doing serious science (this morning it’s more Mongolian livestock and global trees).
@64:
One reason I lack the time is because I’m doing serious science. This week I’ve been poking at analyses, and waiting for my Markdown documents to compile, so I have time to pop in & look at threads I’ve been active on.
I would like to hear more about the scientific work you do, at least in general terms, without revealing any identities or classified information. But first, can you tell what's your scientific/professional/educational/academic background without revealing specific details about people, places or dates? Take your time. No rush. I can wait. Thank you. Dionisio
Bob O'H, A genuine discussion here is always welcome. This involves both expository and responsive posts. Communication goes two ways. I'm not sure what a "world tree" is in this context, but if you're more comfortable using Mongolian livestock as a point in case, feel free to do so, but expect others to do likewise in areas you might not feel comfortable in. Are you studying the genomes of Mongolian livestock? -Q Querius
Dionisio @77 - I responded to a particular comment which I found rather insulting. I wasn't intending that to be an invitation to be asked about other topics that hadn't been brought up and I'm sorry if you misconstrued my response as such. If you genuinely want to learn, then I'd suggest trying a less confrontational approach. Even if there is much we don't agree on, I would hope that a genuine discussion could be had. Bob O'H
Daniel King in regards to this statement that I made,,,
"if you are not a Theist then, by default, you are not being ‘scientific’ but are in fact being anti-scientific."
,, you replied,,,
"Looks like ad hominems are so ingrained in the UD community that it’s become the standard reply to any criticism."
Daniel King, contrary to what you may personally believe, a statement of a fact is not a personal ad hominem. It is simply a statement of a fact. If you consider my statement personally offensive then that is your own fault for being too personally attached to the naturalistic worldview. The naturalistic worldview, as much as you may admire that worldview, is not 'you'. In fact, since consciousness is an illusion under naturalism, then there would be no 'you' to be offended in naturalism were actually true. I merely pointed out the now established fact that the naturalistic worldview is indeed anti-scientific. Daniel King, you then go on to, of all things, state this,,,
"You’re not fooling anybody, except yourself."
Yet Daniel King, if Naturalism were actually true then Naturalism itself would be 'fooling' everybody and science would be impossible. That is, in fact, a very large part of the reason why I stated that Naturalism is in fact the 'anti-scientific' worldview. For instance, although reliable ‘observation’ of reality is a necessary cornerstone of the scientific method itself,,,
Steps of the Scientific Method Observation/Research Hypothesis Prediction Experimentation Conclusion http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scientific_method.html
,,, Although reliable ‘observation’ of reality is a necessary cornerstone of the scientific method, the naturalism that Darwinian evolution rests upon undermines this necessary cornerstone. That is to say, given the atheistic premises of naturalism, not only are our personal beliefs about reality held to be somewhat flawed, and therefore in need of testing, even our perceptions/observations of reality itself are held to be untrustworthy and thus ‘illusory’ given the materialistic premises of atheism. Richard Dawkins puts the awkward situation between Darwinian evolution and reliable observation like this:
Why Atheism is Nonsense Pt.5 – “Naturalism is a Self-defeating Idea”video Excerpt: “Since we are creatures of natural selection, we cannot totally trust our senses. Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life.” Richard Dawkins – quoted from “The God Delusion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff-5rsrDRGM
In the following video and article, Donald Hoffman has, through numerous computer simulations of population genetics, proved that if Darwinian evolution were actually true then ALL of our perceptions of reality would be illusory.
Donald Hoffman: Do we see reality as it is? – Video – 9:59 minute mark Quote: “,,,evolution is a mathematically precise theory. We can use the equations of evolution to check this out. We can have various organisms in artificial worlds compete and see which survive and which thrive, which sensory systems or more fit. A key notion in those equations is fitness.,,, fitness does depend on reality as it is, yes.,,, Fitness is not the same thing as reality as it is, and it is fitness, and not reality as it is, that figures centrally in the equations of evolution. So, in my lab, we have run hundreds of thousands of evolutionary game simulations with lots of different randomly chosen worlds and organisms that compete for resources in those worlds. Some of the organisms see all of the reality. Others see just part of the reality. And some see none of the reality. Only fitness. Who wins? Well I hate to break it to you but perception of reality goes extinct. In almost every simulation, organisms that see none of reality, but are just tuned to fitness, drive to extinction that perceive reality as it is. So the bottom line is, evolution does not favor veridical, or accurate perceptions. Those (accurate) perceptions of reality go extinct. Now this is a bit stunning. How can it be that not seeing the world accurately gives us a survival advantage?” https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=601 The Evolutionary Argument Against Reality - April 2016 The cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman uses evolutionary game theory to show that our perceptions of an independent reality must be illusions. Excerpt: “The classic argument is that those of our ancestors who saw more accurately had a competitive advantage over those who saw less accurately and thus were more likely to pass on their genes that coded for those more accurate perceptions, so after thousands of generations we can be quite confident that we’re the offspring of those who saw accurately, and so we see accurately. That sounds very plausible. But I think it is utterly false. It misunderstands the fundamental fact about evolution, which is that it’s about fitness functions — mathematical functions that describe how well a given strategy achieves the goals of survival and reproduction. The mathematical physicist Chetan Prakash proved a theorem that I devised that says: According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness. Never.” https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160421-the-evolutionary-argument-against-reality/
Although Hoffman tried to limit his results to just our visual perceptions, as Plantinga had pointed out before Hoffman came along, there is no reason why the results do not also extend to undermining our cognitive faculties as well:
The Case Against Reality - May 13, 2016 Excerpt: Hoffman seems to come to a conclusion similar to the one Alvin Plantinga argues in ch. 10 of Where the Conflict Really Lies: we should not expect — in the absence of further argument — that creatures formed by a naturalistic evolutionary process would have veridical perceptions.,,, First, even if Hoffman’s argument were restricted to visual perception, and not to our cognitive faculties more generally (e.g., memory, introspection, a priori rational insight, testimonial belief, inferential reasoning, etc.), the conclusion that our visual perceptions would be wholly unreliable given natural selection would be sufficient for Plantinga’s conclusion of self-defeat. After all, reliance upon the veridicality of our visual perceptions was and always will be crucial for any scientific argument for the truth of evolution. So if these perceptions cannot be trusted, we have little reason to think evolutionary theory is true. Second, it’s not clear that Hoffman’s application of evolutionary game theory is only specially applicable to visual perception, rather than being relevant for our cognitive faculties generally. If “we find that veridical perceptions can be driven to extinction by non-veridical strategies that are tuned to utility rather than objective reality” (2010, p. 504, my emphasis), then why wouldn’t veridical cognitive faculties (more generally) be driven to extinction by non-veridical strategies that are tuned to utility rather than objective reality? After all, evolutionary theory purports to be the true account of the formation of all of our cognitive faculties, not just our faculty of visual perception. If evolutionary game theory proves that “true perception generally goes extinct” when “animals that perceive the truth compete with others that sacrifice truth for speed and energy-efficiency” (2008), why wouldn’t there be a similar sacrifice with respect to other cognitive faculties? In fact, Hoffman regards the following theorem as now proven: “According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness” (Atlantic interview). But then wouldn’t it also be the case that an organism that cognizes reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that cognizes none of reality but is just tuned to fitness? On the evolutionary story, every cognitive faculty we have was produced by a process that was tuned to fitness (rather than tuned to some other value, such as truth). http://www.gregwelty.com/2016/05/the-case-against-reality/
Thus, in what should be needless to say, a worldview that undermines the scientific method itself by holding ALL of our observations of reality, and even our cognitive faculties, are illusory, is NOT a worldview that can be firmly grounded within the scientific method!
Why Evolutionary Theory Cannot Survive Itself – Nancy Pearcey – March 8, 2015 Excerpt: Steven Pinker writes, “Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.” The upshot is that survival is no guarantee of truth. If survival is the only standard, we can never know which ideas are true and which are adaptive but false. To make the dilemma even more puzzling, evolutionists tell us that natural selection has produced all sorts of false concepts in the human mind. Many evolutionary materialists maintain that free will is an illusion, consciousness is an illusion, even our sense of self is an illusion — and that all these false ideas were selected for their survival value. So how can we know whether the theory of evolution itself is one of those false ideas? The theory undercuts itself.,,, Of course, the atheist pursuing his research has no choice but to rely on rationality, just as everyone else does. The point is that he has no philosophical basis for doing so. Only those who affirm a rational Creator have a basis for trusting human rationality. The reason so few atheists and materialists seem to recognize the problem is that, like Darwin, they apply their skepticism selectively. They apply it to undercut only ideas they reject, especially ideas about God. They make a tacit exception for their own worldview commitments. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/why_evolutionar094171.html
Moreover, completely contrary to what Hoffman found for Darwinian theory, accurate perception, i.e. conscious observation, far from being unreliable and illusory, is experimentally found to be far more integral to reality, i.e. far more reliable of reality, than the mathematics of population genetics said it would be. In the following experiment, it was found that reality doesn’t exist without an observer.
New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It – June 3, 2015 Excerpt: The results of the Australian scientists’ experiment, which were published in the journal Nature Physics, show that this choice is determined by the way the object is measured, which is in accordance with what quantum theory predicts. “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said lead researcher Dr. Andrew Truscott in a press release.,,, “The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,” he said. Thus, this experiment adds to the validity of the quantum theory and provides new evidence to the idea that reality doesn’t exist without an observer. http://themindunleashed.org/2015/06/new-mind-blowing-experiment-confirms-that-reality-doesnt-exist-if-you-are-not-looking-at-it.html
Apparently science itself could care less if atheists are forced to believe, because of the mathematics of population genetics, that their observations of reality are illusory! In conclusion, Atheistic Naturalists undermine their own testimony about reality since they, self admittedly, cannot trust anything that they may see and/or think about reality if their worldview were actually true. In other words, Naturalism is 'anti-scientific': Whereas on the other hand, as science itself demonstrates, the testimony of the Christian Theist, as to what result he may have personally saw in an scientific experiment, or what he personally saw otherwise, remains reliable in its overall integrity. Verse:
Revelation 1:2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
bornagain77
Dionisio, Yes, I agree. The reason that I've added some ridicule to certain replies is in the perhaps vain effort to shake them into awareness. It seems like few if any of their posts are genuine attempts at discussion. What woke me up was the speculative nature and inadequacy of Darwinism. I started asking questions in high school and then rejected the pathetic theory after studying *part* of a wall-full of complex biochemical cycles in college. The sick man by the pool wanted healing and told Jesus straight out. He didn't argue or rationalize when Jesus told him to get up,take up his bed, and walk. Certain people here want anything but healing, preferring instead to waste our time with stupid arguments to justify their lifestyle. However, I respect a question or doubt as long as the person is genuine and honest. There's a huge difference! -Q Querius
Querius I like you buddy. You've made me laugh out loud. But I feel sad for DK. I used to exist in that same state of mind for a substantial portion of the time I've been around, totally oblivious to reality. It's pathetic, because I wasn't aware of my lost condition. Everything seemed fine from my distorted perspective. However, there's hope that DK could be rescued from that miserable situation. I know God loves him, because God loves me and I'm not better than DK. DK, you and I were made in God's image (Imago Dei), hence we all share the same dignity and can have intimate relation with our own Creator. It doesn't get better than that. I pray that DK's spiritual eyes get wide open so that he can see the true ultimate reality, defined in the first few verses of the gospel according to the apostle John. PS. One reason to ask very simple easy to answer 'yes'/'no' questions is to let your interlocutors reveal their real motives for discussing. If they hassle about those simple questions, it most probably means that they're not interested in having a serious discussion whatsoever. Just observe DK's hysterical reaction. It's definitely sad. By the pool of Bethesda our Lord met a man who had been paralyzed many years. Do you remember what Jesus asked him? What did the sick man respond? What happened next? Dionisio
Daniel King @69 wrote:
Querius, You’re funny. Dionisio’s fallacious reasoning is science? Get a grip, if you can.
To which, (Daniel King)^-1 would reply:
Daniel King, You're stupid. Dionisio’s brilliant reasoning is science. Get a grip, if you can.
Thus it becomes apparent that multiplying them together and subtracting one from the product would simply leave a bad smell. ;-) -Q Querius
bornagain77:
Daniel King, if you are not a Theist then, by default, you are not being ‘scientific’ but are in fact being anti-scientific.
Looks like ad hominems are so ingrained in the UD community that it's become the standard reply to any criticism. You're not fooling anybody, except yourself. Daniel King
Dionisio @72:
1. Do you know exactly why Dionisio is writing directly to Bob O’H? 2. Do you know who started the direct exchange of comments between Bob O’H and Dionisio? 3. BTW, did Bob O’H hire you as his defense lawyer? :) 4. Do you want to discuss science with me? 5. Do you have time for such a discussion? 6. Would you be really interested in such a discussion? 7. At any depth of details? You may use any help you can get. Just let me know when you’re ready. For appetizers you may start from the questions # 6 & 7 posted @65.M
You can answer those silly questions yourself. That smokescreen doesn't hide your attack on Bob O'H simply for disagreeing with bornagain77. Ad hominems seem to be the modus operandi of this site. (I am grateful to my Jesuit mentors for teaching me a little elementary Latin and elementary logic. Both come in handy when analyzing the illogic of UD supporters.) Daniel King
Bob O'H: Thank you for replying again. Please, note that it was you -not I- who started this 'conversation' with your comment @60. You provided much unsolicited information which caused more confusion. I took it as an open invitation to discuss. If you want to 'chat' with me, be willing and ready to answer questions. Otherwise, don't even start. Again, in this case, it was you who started the exchange of comments. If someone starts a direct one-on-one discussion/debate/conversation/chat with me, I assume that person is willing and ready to ask and answer questions. I'm very curious and know much less than most folks in this site, including yourself, hence I like to ask questions to learn. Many questions I ask are fairly simple and easy to answer. But we should read the questions carefully and follow any given directions on how to answer them. As you can see in this case, most of the questions I asked you just required a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. That's it. Also, note that the questions @65 are numbered and grouped by categories. Thus you don't have to repeat the questions along with your answers. It's sufficient to refer to the question number and write your answer next to that number. One reason I do it like that, besides my curiosity, is to make my interlocutor reveal his/her real motives for the conversation/discussion. If a person complains about simple questions like those, it could mean that person is not really interested in having a serious conversation/discussion with me. You could have answered all the questions posted @65. But did you want to? Apparently not. That's fine, it's your prerogative. But again, you were the initiator of this exchange. I did not address you directly in this thread before you addressed me @60. Do you understand what I mean? I'm not good conveying ideas clearly. From what you described in your comments, in a way you're a scientist, but I'm not and I'm far from becoming one. Most probable you know a lot more about biology than I do. For years I've worked as a software developer for an engineering design system. But I like science, specially biology. Therefore if we were to discuss some biology stuff here, I could benefit more than you because I have more to learn from what you know than you could learn from what I know about biology. Do you agree? Let's go back to my questions @65: Are the questions 3-7 difficult for you to answer either 'yes' or 'no'? Actually, it should be easy for you to answer the first seven questions I asked Daniel King @72, right? Yes, no, maybe? :) There's one most important knowledge -above any scientific or philosophical knowledge- which I would enjoy sharing with you, which gives me the confidence that frees me from having to meet some worldly standards in order to qualify as 'acceptable' to this world. It's the knowledge of Christ, who made everything that was made, including you and me. I pray that somehow someday you'll have that knowledge too. I know He loves you, because He proved He loves me, and I'm sure I'm not better than you. He created you and me in His image (Imago Dei). Therefore you and I have the same dignity. And most important, you and I can have intimate relation with our own Creator. He gracefully provided the way for us to approach Him personally, forever. Think about this. I'll pray for you. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. PS. This ends our conversation, as per your request. Dionisio
Dionosio - I don't see why I should be beholden to you. I comment on some threads, and not others, depending on how interesting they are, how busy I am, and whether I feel there's something worth commenting on. I've no idea why you're asking me about morphogen gradients. It's not my area of expertise. Bob O'H
Bob O'H: There's an error in a statement within my post @56. Here's the corrected text:
Please, don’t forget that you’re dealing with folks who apparently have no interest whatsoever in serious science. Otherwise they would have been active participants in the discussion threads “Mystery at the heart of life” and “A third way of evolution?”, but they aren’t.
The word 'apparently' was added. However, still it would be highly appreciated if you responded the questions posted @65. Dionisio
Daniel King @67:
Please address the poster’s argument,...
1. Do you know exactly why Dionisio is writing directly to Bob O'H? 2. Do you know who started the direct exchange of comments between Bob O'H and Dionisio? 3. BTW, did Bob O'H hire you as his defense lawyer? :) 4. Do you want to discuss science with me? 5. Do you have time for such a discussion? 6. Would you be really interested in such a discussion? 7. At any depth of details? You may use any help you can get. Just let me know when you're ready. For appetizers you may start from the questions # 6 & 7 posted @65. Dionisio
Daniel King @67:
Please address the poster’s argument,...
Please, can you indicate what "poster's argument" are you referring to? Dionisio
Daniel King, if you are not a Theist then, by default, you are not being 'scientific' but are in fact being anti-scientific. Let us be VERY clear to the fact that ALL of science, every discipline within science, is dependent on basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and the ability of our mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility.,,,
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 Greg Bahnsen debate available at the bottom of the site Excerpt: When we go to look at the different world views that atheists and theists have, I suggest we can prove the existence of God from the impossibility of the contrary. The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://justinholcomb.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist/
Moreover, if we cast aside those basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and the ability of our mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility, and try to use naturalism as our basis for understanding the universe, and for practicing science, then everything within that atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. supposed evidence for Darwinian evolution, observations of reality, beliefs about reality, sense of self, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination.
Darwinian evolution, and atheism/naturalism in general, are built entirely upon a framework of illusions and fantasy Excerpt: Thus, basically, without God, everything within the atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. supposed evidence for Darwinian evolution, observations of reality, beliefs about reality, sense of self, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination. It would be hard to fathom a more unscientific worldview than Darwinian evolution and Atheistic materialism/naturalism in general have turned out to be. Scientists should definitely stick with the worldview that brought them to the dance! i.e Christianity! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q94y-QgZZGF0Q7HdcE-qdFcVGErhWxsVKP7GOmpKD6o/edit
Supplemental notes:
The Threat to the Scientific Method that Explains the Spate of Fraudulent Science Publications - Calvin Beisner | Jul 23, 2014 Excerpt: It is precisely because modern science has abandoned its foundations in the Biblical worldview (which holds, among other things, that a personal, rational God designed a rational universe to be understood and controlled by rational persons made in His image) and the Biblical ethic (which holds, among other things, that we are obligated to tell the truth even when it inconveniences us) that science is collapsing. As such diverse historians and philosophers of science as Alfred North Whitehead, Pierre Duhem, Loren Eiseley, Rodney Stark, and many others have observed,, science—not an occasional flash of insight here and there, but a systematic, programmatic, ongoing way of studying and controlling the world—arose only once in history, and only in one place: medieval Europe, once known as “Christendom,” where that Biblical worldview reigned supreme. That is no accident. Science could not have arisen without that worldview. http://townhall.com/columnists/calvinbeisner/2014/07/23/the-threat-to-the-scientific-method-that-explains-the-spate-of-fraudulent-science-publications-n1865201/page/full Several other resources backing up this claim are available, such as Thomas Woods, Stanley Jaki, David Linberg, Edward Grant, J.L. Heilbron, and Christopher Dawson. Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Far from undermining the credibility of theism, the remarkable success of science in modern times is a remarkable confirmation of the truth of theism. It was from the perspective of Judeo-Christian theism—and from the perspective alone—that it was predictable that science would have succeeded as it has. Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdf
bornagain77
Querius, You're funny. Dionisio's fallacious reasoning is science? Get a grip, if you can. Daniel King
No, they're not, DK. These are what are termed "observable facts." This is actually what science is supposed to be based on. Imagine that. -Q Querius
Dionisio, Your logical fallacy is ad hominem. Please address the poster's argument, not his person. Thank you. Daniel King
Bob O’H @64:
I don’t read every thread (just when I have time), so the reason I don’t participate is because I lack the time or interest .
In this current discussion thread you have posted @:
3 Bob O’H October 23, 2016 at 12:24 pm 15 Bob O’H October 24, 2016 at 2:08 am 37 Bob O’H October 25, 2016 at 5:16 am 42 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 4:40 am 44 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 6:59 am 46 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 8:27 am 48 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:10 am 50 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:43 am 52 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 1:32 pm 60 Bob O’H October 27, 2016 at 3:35 am 64 Bob O’H October 28, 2016 at 7:00 am
As anyone can see, you haven’t missed a single day since News started this thread last October 23rd. You have posted 11 comments in 6 days just in this thread. Definitely you don't lack interest to comment in this thread. And apparently you've had some time for that too. Is this an accurate observation? Dionisio
Bob O'H @64: In this current discussion thread you have posted @:
3 Bob O’H October 23, 2016 at 12:24 pm 15 Bob O’H October 24, 2016 at 2:08 am 37 Bob O’H October 25, 2016 at 5:16 am 42 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 4:40 am 44 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 6:59 am 46 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 8:27 am 48 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:10 am 50 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:43 am 52 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 1:32 pm 60 Bob O’H October 27, 2016 at 3:35 am 64 Bob O'H October 28, 2016 at 7:00 am
You haven't missed a single day since News started this thread last October 23rd. 1. Is your allegedly 'scientific' work really keeping you as busy as you claim? (yes/no) 2. What has motivated you to post comments here in this thread every single day since it started? The following 3 questions (3-5) are related to the two threads I mentioned @56 which were started by News long ago. One has been up around 2.5 years, the other close to two years. Both are filled with numerous references to relatively recent biology research papers. Maybe over 3 thousand references combined? 3. Have you ever looked into the discussion threads “Mystery at the heart of life” and/or “A third way of evolution?” even without posting any comments? (yes/no) 4. Have you ever posted a comment on at least one of those discussion threads? (yes/no) 5. Do you have any strong counter arguments against any of the comments posted by others in those two threads? (yes/no) The following questions were asked to professor L.M. of the U. of T. His answers are publicly available in this site. Now you have the opportunity to answer them too. 6. Do you know exactly how the morphogen gradients are formed? (yes/no) 7. Do you know exactly how the morphogen gradients are interpreted? (yes/no) That's all for now. Thank you. Dionisio
Dinosio@ 72 (approx.) - you were complaining that some of us "have no interest whatsoever in serious science", which I took to be a pretty direct insult to those of us who are serious scientists. I don't read every thread (just when I have time), so the reason I don't participate is because I lack the time or interest. One reason I lack the time is because I'm doing serious science. This week I've been poking at analyses, and waiting for my Markdown documents to compile, so I have time to pop in & look at threads I've been active on. (and yes, I was tempted to wait 3 days before posting this response :-)) Bob O'H
Bob O’H @60: Take a look at this: https://uncommondescent.com/culture/atheism-as-religion-atheist-cemetery-opens-in-sweden/#comment-619716 Note you're absent from that thread, where I made a similar observation as @56 in this current thread, hence it refers to other folks too. Don't take things so personally. :) However, regarding this current thread, let's see: 3 Bob O'H October 23, 2016 at 12:24 pm 15 Bob O'H October 24, 2016 at 2:08 am 37 Bob O'H October 25, 2016 at 5:16 am 42 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 4:40 am 44 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 6:59 am 46 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 8:27 am 48 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 9:10 am 50 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 9:43 am 52 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 1:32 pm 60 Bob O'H October 27, 2016 at 3:35 am Hmm... Are you really as busy as you claim @60? Note that October 23-27 you didn't miss a day here in this thread. And on the 26th you were really active here. Was that your day off from your busy work schedule? :) But since News started this thread the 23rd you have not missed a single day of participation in this thread. Hence your excuse @60 seems like a weak argument, doesn't it? It's obvious that a selective participation is indeed in place here. Don't agree? The two threads I mentioned @56 were started by News long ago. One has been around 2.5 years, the other close to two years. Both are heavily loaded with numerous references to biology research papers. Maybe over 3 thousand references combined? Are there other threads in this UD site having more biology research papers referenced than the two threads I mentioned @60? How many times have you commented in those two threads combined? Should we count it? Dionisio
Bob O'H @60:
Dinosio @ 57 –
Huh? Did you mean "Dionisio @ 56" ? Have you considered taking a short break from your busy work schedule so you can rest?
So the reason I don’t participate in every thread is that I’m busy actually doing serious science
Huh? Did I ever ask you to explain why you don't participate in anything? You don't have to explain why you participate in some discussion threads but don't participate in other discussion threads. That's up to you to decide. Nobody else should do it for you. Hey, relax. You can checkout anytime you want and you can actually leave. :) Dionisio
Bob O'H @60:
Dinosio @ 57 –
Huh?
So the reason I don’t participate in every thread is that I’m busy actually doing serious science
Huh? Dionisio
Dinosio @ 57 - Going through my inbox just now, I've been sent some data on an experiment in canine psychology, got emails from colleagues about an analysis I sent them last night about Mongolian livestock, and was CC'ed a decision on a manuscript I reviewed. That's just overnight. So the reason I don't participate in every thread is that I'm busy actually doing serious science (this morning it's more Mongolian livestock and global trees). Bob O'H
BA77, Thank you for posting all that interesting information. Hopefully your politely-dissenting interlocutors will read it too. :) Dionisio
A few notes to that effect:
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Stephen L. Talbott - 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings Scientific evidence that we do indeed have an eternal soul (Elaboration on Talbott's question “What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?”)– video 2016 https://youtu.be/h2P45Obl4lQ Molecular Biology - 19th Century Materialism meets 21st Century Quantum Mechanics – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCs3WXHqOv8 “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it's possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.” - Stuart Hameroff - Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - video (5:00 minute mark) https://youtu.be/jjpEc98o_Oo?t=300 “Now the world appears to be divided into two realms, described by two different sets of physical laws. The quantum (world),, which is immaterial, coexisting possibilities, non-local, unified, connected, has some ultimate truth although we don’t know what it is yet, deeper levels of reality, and in many senses ‘spirit-like’. The classical world, the (illusory) billiard ball universe that we (appear to) live in right now, but not so, is material, Newtonian, definite, macroscopic, local, predictable, disconnected, post-modern, and somewhat boring actually. Now, what is life? If you approach life from classical physics, you see that biology is a set of self-organizing functions. There is no secret to life. Brain activities are equivalent to computers, consciousness is a epi-phenomenal illusion with no causal power. That’s the party line in standard neuroscience and philosophy. Accordingly, Thomas Huxley said years ago, ‘We are merely conscious automaton,’ helpless spectators., That’s the story we get from classical physics approach to the brain. Now,, applying quantum physics to biology, first by Erwin Schrodinger,,, quantum features (of biology include), non-local entanglement, super-position, unity, quantum coherence, quantum information. A kind of quantum vitalism, may play key roles in biological function.,,,” Stuart Hameroff – Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8
Verses and Music:
James 1:21 Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. John 1:1-4) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [OFFICIAL VIDEO] Hallelujah - Pentatonix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRP8d7hhpoQ
bornagain77
Dionisio, although the decades long empirical work on fruit flies is certainly very good for pulling the empirical curtain back and showing that the 'designer substitute' of natural selection has no clothes on, I would like to clearly lay out a primary reason why natural selection is so severely lacking in creative power at the genome level. Dr. John Sanford, in the first part of this following video, clearly illustrates the ineffectiveness of natural selection with what he calls 'the princess and the pea paradox':
The abject failure of Natural Selection on two levels of physical reality – video (2016) (princess and the pea paradox & quarter power scaling) https://youtu.be/ISu-09yq2Gc
The 'princess and the pea paradox' is simple in its clarity. The paradox states that in order for natural selection to be effective in the theory of neo-Darwinian evolution, it must operate the genetic sequence level. Yet natural selection operates at the whole organism level which is many levels, i.e. mattresses, removed from the genetic sequence level. It does not operate at the genetic text level. In other words, Natural Selection only operates by killing off an entire organism of a population in order to try to improve the genetic text which is buried within the trillions upon trillions of cells of the population of organisms. It is very much similar to trying to write a new and improved computer program by randomly introducing a change to an existing program on a computer and then throwing out all the computers that crash as result of the random change and only keeping those that don't crash. As you can see, it is certainly not a very 'effective' way to write a new computer program, and it certainly drives the point home of natural selection being very 'ineffective' as the supposed 'designer substitute'. i.e. As you can clearly see from the princess and the pea illustration of Dr. Sanford, it is simply impossible for Natural Selection to be 'daily and hourly scrutinizing, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad preserving and adding up all that is good' as Darwin and his followers imagine(d) it to be
“It may be said that natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinizing, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad preserving and adding up all that is good; silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers, at the improvement of each organic being in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life” – Darwin – Origin
But as devastating as the princess and the pea paradox is to the proposition that Natural selection could possibly function as a effective 'designer substitute', there is another problem for natural selection which is just as, if not more, devastating as the princess and the pea paradox is. Moreover, this problem, which is highlighted in the last part of the 'abject failure' video that I referenced, hits closer to home with Intelligent Design since it involves the physical reality of information in biological systems. Namely, this devastating problem for Natural Selection has to do with what is termed 'quarter power scaling':
Post-Darwinist - Denyse O'Leary - Dec. 2010 Excerpt: They quote West et al. (1999), “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection." They comment, "In the words of these authors, natural selection has exploited variations on this fractal theme to produce the incredible variety of biological form and function', but there were severe geometric and physical constraints on metabolic processes." "The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection. It's inconceivable that so many different organisms, spanning different kingdoms and phyla, may have blindly 'tried' all sorts of power laws and that only those that have by chance 'discovered' the one-quarter power law reproduced and thrived." Quotations from Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/ The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf
The reason why ’4-Dimensional’ quarter power scaling laws are impossible for Darwinian evolution to explain is that Natural Selection operates at the 3-Dimensional level of the organism and the ’4-Dimensional’ quarter power scaling law are simply ‘invisible’ to natural selection. The reason why 4-Dimensional things are, for all practical purposes, completely invisible to 3-Dimensional things is best illustrated by ‘flatland’:
Dr Quantum - Flatland - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
And the reason why living things operate as if they were 4-Dimensional, instead of operating as if they were 3-Dimensional, is because, contrary to the materialistic framework upon which Darwinism sits, it is 'physically real information' which is foundational to life and it is not matter and energy that are foundational to life as is presupposed in the materialistic foundation of Darwinian evolution. Here are a few notes on the physical reality of ‘immaterial’ information:
Thermodynamic Content, Erasing Classical Information with Quantum Information, Quantum Teleportation https://uncommondescent.com/naturalism-2/naturalism-is-a-total-failure-mockery-without-achievement/#comment-618818
Breakthroughs in quantum biology, particularly the recent establishment of quantum entanglement/information in molecular biology on a massive scale, i.e. in every DNA and protein molecule, further drives the point home. The point being, of course, that life operates as if it is 4-Dimensional, instead of 3-Dimensional as Darwinists would expect, because 'higher dimensional' information is literally what is 'holding life together' until death: bornagain77
BA77, Good point. Please, don't forget that you're dealing with folks who have no interest whatsoever in serious science. Otherwise they would have been active participants in the discussion threads "Mystery at the heart of life" and "A third way of evolution?", but they aren't. Just a reminder -from an openly anti-ID source- for your politely-dissenting interlocutors:
The commonly accepted alternative is Neo-Darwinism, which is clearly naturalistic science but ignores much contemporary molecular evidence and invokes a set of unsupported assumptions about the accidental nature of hereditary variation. Neo-Darwinism ignores important rapid evolutionary processes such as symbiogenesis, horizontal DNA transfer, action of mobile DNA and epigenetic modifications. Moreover, some Neo-Darwinists have elevated Natural Selection into a unique creative force that solves all the difficult evolutionary problems without a real empirical basis. Many scientists today see the need for a deeper and more complete exploration of all aspects of the evolutionary process. http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/
Just let your politely-dissenting interlocutors argue with Dr. Shapiro, Dr. Noble, et al. Maybe then they'll get the point, finally? :) Dionisio
Simply amazing. Three birds one stone. To reiterate the conclusion of the paper so as to dispel any ambiguity:
“Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments.” http://www.homepages.ed.ac.uk/aspiliop//2010_2011/Burke%20et%20al%202010.pdf
bornagain77
BornAgain, Bob is in the right here. It's not hard to just acknowledge a mistake and learn from it. But not acknowledging a mistake and learning from it is a bad route to take. AhmedKiaan
BA77 it is clear that Bob is being forthright and you are not. Any honest reader can see that. And if you had a shred of decency you would admit that. And possibly you could learn something if you were not so emotionally immature. Pindi
Yes, the paper does say what it says, but not what you seem to think it says. It looks like we'll have to leave the matter here. Bob O'H
The paper says what it says. I'll let the readers, and administrator, decide who is being forthright. If you persist in pestering me I will request you be banned for trolling. bornagain77
ba77 - you seem to be equating two things that are not the same. I'm simply trying to find out why you're doing this, or if I've misunderstood you. I don't see trying to understand your point of view better as a "stupid game". Bob O'H
Bob, you are now trolling me. I suggest you stop. I don't have time to play stupid games all day with you. bornagain77
ba77 - the paper show a large, repeatable change in both phenotype & genotype. How come that isn't due to natural selection? The point of the paper (as I understand it) is that selection can have a large effect without necessarily sending alleles to fixation, or with selective sweeps. The only way I can see the paper's conclusions matching your is if you think that natural selection is only effective when it leads to fixation. What evidence do you have for this view? (or, if this isn't your view, can you explain what I've misunderstood about your position?) Bob O'H
Actually, despite how desperately you apparently want to spin this to not reflect badly of Darwinism, the main point of the paper is precisely about the ineffectiveness of natural selection. Moreover, they note that the 'flawed paradigm' leads to dangerous practices in drug development.
UCI scientists decode genomes of sexually precocious fruit flies - September 16, 2010 Excerpt: For decades, most researchers have assumed that sexual species evolve the same way single-cell bacteria do: A genetic mutation sweeps through a population and quickly becomes “fixated” on a particular portion of DNA. But the UCI work shows that when sex is involved, it’s far more complicated. “This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve,” said ecology & evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. Based on that flawed paradigm, Rose noted, drugs have been developed to treat diabetes, heart disease and other maladies, some with serious side effects. He said those side effects probably occur because researchers were targeting single genes, rather than the hundreds of possible gene groups like those Burke found in the flies. https://news.uci.edu/press-releases/uci-scientists-decode-genomes-of-sexually-precocious-fruit-flies/ Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila Excerpt: There are several possible explanations for our failure to observe the signature of a classic sweep in these populations, despite strong selection. Classic sweeps may be occurring, but have had insufficient time to reach fixation. This explanation is consistent with observed data, but requires that newly arising beneficial alleles have small associated selection coefficients (Supplementary Fig. 7). Alternatively, selection in these lines may generally act on standing variation, and not new mutations. This soft sweep model predicts partial losses of heterozygosity flanking selected sites, provided that selection begins acting when mutations are at low frequencies 12,17, and this is consistent with our observed data. However, if a large fraction of the total adaptive response is due to loci fixed by means of soft sweeps, there should be insufficient genetic variation to allow reverse evolution in these populations. But forward experimental evolution can often be completely reversed with these populations 5, which suggests that any soft sweeps in our experiment are incomplete and/or of small effect (Supplementary Fig. 5). A third explanation is that the selection coefficients associated with newly arising mutations are not static but in fact decrease over time. This could be the case if initially rare selected alleles increase to frequencies where additional change is hindered, perhaps by linked deleterious alleles or antagonistic pleiotropy. Laboratory evolution experiments typically expose populations to novel environments in which focal traits respond quickly and then plateau at some new value (compare with refs 13, 18). Chevin and Hospital 19 recently modelled the trajectory of an initially rare beneficial allele that does not reach fixation because its selective advantage is inversely proportional to the distance to a new phenotypic optimum, and that optimum is reached, because of other loci, before the variant fixes. This model therefore has appeal in the context of experimental evolution, as it assumes populations generally reach a new phenotypic optimum before newly arising beneficial mutations of modest effect have had time to fix. Our work provides a new perspective on the genetic basis of adaptation. Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for, 600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments. This suggests that selection does not readily expunge genetic variation in sexual populations, a finding which in turn should motivate efforts to discover why this is seemingly the case. http://www.homepages.ed.ac.uk/aspiliop//2010_2011/Burke%20et%20al%202010.pdf
Put simply, if Selection struggles so mightily to fix just a single unambiguously beneficial mutation, then the following awe inspiring wonders are forever out of the reach of Darwinian 'just so stories:
"One of my favorite images was this one from Igor Siwanowicz," notes Hanson. "That special gear-like structure planthoppers use to balance their jumping force. It looks like something an engineer would put together if you asked them to build you a jumping bug,,," Gears interlock in the hind legs of a planthopper nymph. Confocal 250x. Image: Dr. Igor Siwanowicz/Nikon Small Worlds http://images.earthtouchnews.com/media/1946933/nikon-siwanowicz_2016-10-22.jpg THE WORLD'S BEST MICROSCOPE PHOTOS ZOOM IN ON NATURE'S TINY WONDERS - OCTOBER 25 2016 http://www.earthtouchnews.com/in-the-field/film-and-photo/the-worlds-best-microscope-photos-zoom-in-on-natures-tiny-wonders If you’ve ever wondered how a diving beetle swims through the water or manages to rest just on the surface, the answer is in part because its foot is infinitely more complicated than your own. As seen above, this microscopic image of a male Acilius sulcatus (diving beetle) by photographer Igor Siwanowicz reveals the extraordinary complexity of this aquatic insect’s tiny appendage. This is just one of many examples of Siwanowicz’s work http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2016/10/insect-microscopy-igor-siwanowicz/
bornagain77
ba77 - You're equating effectiveness of natural selection with fixation. But I don't know of any argument for why this should be the case. And in the paper you're citing, we see a large adaptive change without fixation. So that would seem to be clear evidence that natural selection can be effective without fixation. Bob O'H
"where do those quotes say that natural selection is not effective?" "“Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles." Further quotes from empirical and mathematical investigations that demonstrate the ineffectiveness of natural selection as the supposed 'designer substitute':
"We'll argue presently that, quite aside from the problems it has accommodating the empirical findings, the theory of natural selection is internally flawed; it's not just that the data are equivocal, it's that there's a crack in the foundations." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini - “What Darwin Got Wrong” Can Purifying Natural Selection Preserve Biological Information? - May 2013 - Paul Gibson, John R. Baumgardner, Wesley H. Brewer, John C. Sanford In conclusion, numerical simulation shows that realistic levels of biological noise result in a high selection threshold. This results in the ongoing accumulation of low-impact deleterious mutations, with deleterious mutation count per individual increasing linearly over time. Even in very long experiments (more than 100,000 generations), slightly deleterious alleles accumulate steadily, causing eventual extinction. These findings provide independent validation of previous analytical and simulation studies [2–13]. Previous concerns about the problem of accumulation of nearly neutral mutations are strongly supported by our analysis. Indeed, when numerical simulations incorporate realistic levels of biological noise, our analyses indicate that the problem is much more severe than has been acknowledged, and that the large majority of deleterious mutations become invisible to the selection process.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0010 Selection Threshold Severely Constrains Capture of Beneficial Mutations - John C. Sanford – 2013 Concluding comments Our findings raise a very interesting theoretical problem — in a large genome, how do the millions of low-impact (yet functional) nucleotides arise? It is universally agreed that selection works very well for high-impact mutations. However, unless some new and as yet undiscovered process is operating in nature, there should be selection breakdown for the great majority of mutations that have small impact on fitness. We have now shown that this applies equally to both beneficial and deleterious mutations, and we have shown that selection interference is especially important when there are high-impact beneficial mutations. We conclude that only a very small fraction of all non-neutral mutations are selectable within large genomes. Our results reinforce and extend the findings of earlier studies [1–13], which in general employed many simplifying assumptions and rarely included more than a single source of biological noise. We show that selection breakdown is not just a simple function of population size, but is seriously impacted by other factors, especially selection interference. We are convinced that our formulation and methodology (i.e., genetic accounting) provide the most biologically-realistic analysis of selection breakdown to date. http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0011 "many genomic features could not have emerged without a near-complete disengagement of the power of natural selection" Michael Lynch The Origins of Genome Architecture, intro "a relative lack of natural selection may be the prerequisite for major evolutionary advance" Mae Wan Ho Beyond neo-Darwinism Evolution by Absence of Selection “Darwinism provided an explanation for the appearance of design, and argued that there is no Designer -- or, if you will, the designer is natural selection. If that's out of the way -- if that (natural selection) just does not explain the evidence -- then the flip side of that is, well, things appear designed because they are designed.” Richard Sternberg - Living Waters documentary Whale Evolution vs. Population Genetics - Richard Sternberg and Paul Nelson - (excerpt from Living Waters video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0csd3M4bc0Q Haldane's Pre-Cambrian Rabbit plus Natural Selection Falsified by Population Genetics - video https://youtu.be/zlGwjUJLgAE "We've been told by more than one of our colleagues that, even if Darwin was substantially wrong to claim that natural selection is the mechanism of evolution, nonetheless we shouldn't say so. Not, anyhow, in public. To do that is, however inadvertently, to align oneself with the Forces of Darkness, whose goal it is to bring Science into disrepute. Well, we don't agree. We think the way to discomfort the Forces of Darkness is to follow the arguments wherever they may lead, spreading such light as one can in the course of doing so. What makes the Forces of Darkness dark is that they aren't willing to do that. What makes science scientific is that it is." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini - “What Darwin Got Wrong” Quotes from Mazur’s Altenberg 16: “Oh sure natural selection’s been demonstrated … the interesting point, however, is that it has rarely if ever been demonstrated to have anything to do with evolution in the sense of long-term changes in populations. … Summing up we can see that the import of the Darwinian theory of evolution is just unexplainable caprice from top to bottom. What evolves is just what happens to happen [ellipsis in original]” (Stanley Salthe, p. 21). “Darwinism and the neo-Darwinian synthesis, last dusted off 70 years ago, actually hinder discovery of the mechanism of evolution” (Antonio Lima-de-Faria, p. 83). “Do I think natural selection should be relegated to a less import(ant) role in the discussion of evolution? Yes I do” (Scott Gilbert, p. 221). “She [Lynn Margulis] sees natural selection as ‘neither the source of heritable novelty nor the entire evolutionary process’ and has pronounced neo-Darwinism ‘dead’, since there’s no adequate evidence in the literature that random mutations result in new species” (Mazur, p. 257). “At that meeting [Francisco] Ayala agreed with me when I stated that this doctrinaire neo-Darwinism is dead. He was a practitioner of neo-Darwinism but advances in molecular genetics, evolution, ecology, biochemistry, and other news had led him to agree that neo-Darwinism’s now dead” (Lynn Margulis, p. 278). Can Darwinian Evolutionary Theory Be Taken Seriously? - Stephen L. Talbott - May 16, 2016 Excerpt: The influential Dutch botanist and geneticist, Hugo de Vries, framed the matter this way during the first decade of the twentieth century: Natural selection is a sieve. It creates nothing, as is so often assumed; it only sifts. It retains only what variability puts into the sieve. Whence the material comes that is put into it, should be kept separate from the theory of its selection. How the struggle for existence sifts is one question; how that which is sifted arose is another.34 It was de Vries who formulated the catchy phrasing that has since been repeated many times: “Natural selection may explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest”.35 It’s not a concern easily dismissed. Over subsequent decades other biologists have added their own accents: “The function of natural selection is selection and not creation. It has nothing to do with the formation of new variation”. (Reginald Punnett [1911], British geneticist who cofounded the Journal of Genetics; quoted in Stoltzfus 2006) Regarding specific traits, natural selection “might afford a reason for their preservation, but never provide the cause for their origin”. (Adolf Portmann [1967, p. 123], preeminent zoologist of the middle of the twentieth century) “Natural selection is the editor, rather than the composer, of the genetic message”. (Jack King and Thomas Jukes [1969], key developers of the idea of “neutral evolution”) “In evolution, selection may decide the winner of a given game but development non-randomly defines the players”. (Pere Alberch [1980], Spanish naturalist and embryologist, sometimes spoken of as the founder of Evo-Devo — evolutionary developmental biology) “Natural selection eliminates and maybe maintains, but it doesn’t create”. (Lynn Margulis [2011], microbiologist and botanist, pioneer in exploring the role of symbiosis in evolution, and co-developer of the Gaia hypothesis) The objection (to natural selection) these estimable biologists were raising has never gained the traction it deserves. ,,, On the other hand, it would have been hard to find even a slight blush of embarrassment when Stephen Jay Gould, countering the sort of doubt voiced above by his peers, asked, “Why was natural selection compared to a composer by Dobzhansky; to a poet by Simpson; to a sculptor by Mayr; and to, of all people, Mr. Shakespeare by Julian Huxley?” The answer, according to Gould, is that the allusions to poetry, musical composition, and sculpture helpfully underscore the “creativity of natural selection”: "The essence of Darwinism lies in its claim that natural selection creates the fit. Variation is ubiquitous and random in direction. It supplies the raw material only. Natural selection directs the course of evolutionary change. It preserves favorable variants and builds fitness gradually".36 And so it is possible for leading theorists of evolution to declare an abstract algorithm — natural selection — a capable artist, even though the only place where we observe an actual creative and artistic activity going on is in the organism itself. And even though the explanatory appeal to natural selection simply hides the fact, as we saw above, that the explanation assumes this very same creative activity in the organism. ,,, What we do have is a god-like power of natural selection whose miracle-working activity in creating ever-new organisms is vividly clear to eyes of faith, but frustratingly obscure to mere empirical investigators. This is not a science ready for submission to a larger public along with a demand for acquiescence. Not if this public has yet to dull its sensitivity to fundamental questions in the way that the research community seems to have done. http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2016/teleology_30.htm
Darwin himself referred to Natural Selection as some type of master craftsman:
“It may be said that natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinizing, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad preserving and adding up all that is good; silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers, at the improvement of each organic being in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life” - Darwin - Origin
Yet contrary to what Darwin and his modern day 'just so story tellers' may believe, Natural Selection as the designer substitute is not only blind but is dead:
The abject failure of Natural Selection on two levels of physical reality – video (2016) (princess and the pea paradox & quarter power scaling) https://youtu.be/ISu-09yq2Gc
bornagain77
ba77 - where do those quotes say that natural selection is not effective? Yes, they say we don't get selective sweeps and fixation, but I don't know any serious biologist who's claimed that natural selection has to lead to selective sweeps and fixation. Bob O'H
Bob states that "Your comments about me being “obfuscating and disingenuous” are not worth responding to." And yet Bob himself demonstrates the disingenuous nature in which conducts himself by his selective omission of what followed directly after his selected quote,,, specifically
, we identify several dozen genomic regions that show strong allele frequency differentiation between a pooled sample of five replicate populations selected for accelerated development and pooled controls. On the basis of resequencing data from a single replicate population with accelerated development, as well as single nucleotide polymorphism data from individual flies from each replicate population, we infer little allele frequency differentiation between replicate populations within a selection treatment. Signatures of selection are qualitatively different than what has been observed in asexual species; in our sexual populations, adaptation is not associated with ‘classic’ sweeps whereby newly arising, unconditionally advantageous mutations become fixed. More parsimonious explanations include ‘incomplete’ sweep models, in which mutations have not had enough time to fix, and ‘soft’ sweep models, in which selection acts on pre-existing, common genetic variants. We conclude that, at least for life history characters such as development time, unconditionally advantageous alleles rarely arise, are associated with small net fitness gains or cannot fix because selection coefficients change over time.
The conclusion is more direct than the abstract:
“Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments.” http://www.homepages.ed.ac.uk/aspiliop//2010_2011/Burke%20et%20al%202010.pdf
I'll let the unbiased readers decide for themselves whether Bob provided the rope for his own hanging on the charge of being disingenuous towards the evidence! bornagain77
ba77 @ 38 - huh? That paper that you link to shows natural selection, at several dozen loci. From the abstract:
we identify several dozen genomic regions that show strong allele frequency differentiation between a pooled sample of five replicate populations selected for accelerated development and pooled controls. ... we infer little allele frequency differentiation between replicate populations within a selection treatment.
So there is both genotypic and phenotypic change, and this is repeatable across replicates. Your comments about me being "obfuscating and disingenuous" are not worth responding to. Bob O'H
I wonder whether rvb8 is actually a Turing test using a BA/PV app.
r - rare v - virus b - bot 8 - 8th iteration ? Vy
Arthur:
PaV,, regarding your resort to “the math”, i don’t think you have any idea what you are saying. You seem to be claiming, for example, that we have no idea about the mechanisms that underlie the origins of, say, the Hawaiian silverswords. That is more than wrong, it is silly. (I believe this subject has been broached before here, and the anti evolution crowd reflexively resorted to “no fair, they’re just plants”.).
You missed the part where I talked about Darwin describing "varieties" as "incipient species." This does get us back to "they're still just a [type of] plant." What Darwinism needs to demonstrate is still left for demonstration. Adaptation, and phenotypic diversity, is not "macroevolution." Simple as that. As to adaptive radiations, have you ever looked at Richard Goldschmidt's (1934?) "The Material Basis of Evolution"? There you will find that he determined that the one "new species" of moth that seemed to creep up at the end of one such 'radiation," was not due to 'genetics," but due to the type of soil. Guess what, even back then we were running into 'epigenetics': that is, environmental cues changing the regulatory mechanism of a 'genome.'
As far as the alleged insufficiency of RM+NS, it is a fact that no antievolutionist has ever published any sort of well-controlled positive experimental evidence for this claim.
Well, in a way, I have. Look here (posts 46 and 48) and here. I predicted that the Adriatic lizard, Podacaris sicula, if fed the diet that the transplanted lizards encountered after transplantation to a new island in the lab would produce the same phenotypic changes that occurred. I suggested that this study be carried out. It was. I turned out to be correct. So, though I didn't publish it, the study was done and published. It's what Goldschmidt was saying 80 years ago. PaV
Querius
It seems like it would be good for someone to critique his material.
Agreed! He needs a tough-minded editor who wont' give him the chance to just keep replaying the same material. :-) Silver Asiatic
"your first link is dead." Indeed it is. Although the original article has apparently died and gone to internet heaven, here are some links that get the same point across
Long-Term Fruit Fly Experiment Raises Questions - October 6, 2010 Excerpt: "Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/10/long-term-fruit-fly-experiment-raises.html Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila - 2010 Excerpt: "Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments." http://www.homepages.ed.ac.uk/aspiliop//2010_2011/Burke%20et%20al%202010.pdf UCI scientists decode genomes of sexually precocious fruit flies - September 16, 2010 Excerpt: “This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve,” said ecology & evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. https://news.uci.edu/press-releases/uci-scientists-decode-genomes-of-sexually-precocious-fruit-flies/
Your critique of The Third Way is fuzzy to put it nicely. But I guess a Darwinist, who is purposely being obfuscating and disingenuous to the science at hand, would find it 'odd' that respected scientists, who have no theological axe to grind, would strenuously object to the mechanism of RM & NS on purely empirical grounds: These guys a pretty impressive in their work. One of the scientists listed on "The Third Way", who finds Darwinian explanations severely lacking, is Didier Raoult himself:
The "Most Productive and Influential Microbiologist in France" Is a Furious Darwin Doubter - March 2012 Excerpt: Controversial and outspoken, Raoult last year published a popular science book that flat-out declares that Darwin's theory of evolution is wrong. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/the_most_produc057081.html A New Model for Evolution: A Rhizome - May 2010 Excerpt: Thus we cannot currently identify a single common ancestor for the gene repertoire of any organism.,,, Overall, it is now thought that there are no two genes that have a similar history along the phylogenic tree.,,,Therefore the representation of the evolutionary pathway as a tree leading to a single common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of one or more genes provides an incorrect representation of the stability and hierarchy of evolution. Finally, genome analyses have revealed that a very high proportion of genes are likely to be newly created,,, and that some genes are only found in one organism (named ORFans). These genes do not belong to any phylogenic tree and represent new genetic creations. - Didier Raoult http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-model-for-evolution-rhizome.html
bornagain77
ba77 @36 - your first link is dead. The Third Way group is odd - I suspect almost every evolutionary biologist would agree that "other mechanisms [than natural selection] are essential for a comprehensive understanding of evolutionary processes". That's why mutation, demography, drift, behaviour, and even (*gasp*) epigenetics are part of evolutionary biology. (although in fairness the evolutionary role of epigenetics is poorly understood) Bob O'H
as to this claim: "As far as the alleged insufficiency of RM+NS, it is a fact that no antievolutionist has ever published any sort of well-controlled positive experimental evidence for this claim." and yet we find,,,
Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies (35 years of trying to force fruit flies to evolve in the laboratory fails, spectacularly) – October 2010 Excerpt: “Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.”,,, “This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve,” said ecology and evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. http://eebweb.arizona.edu/nachman/Suggested%20Papers/Lab%20papers%20fall%202010/Burke_et_al_2010.pdf
Of note, it is hardly just 'anti-evolutionists' that find RM & NS severely wanting. "The Third Way" has a list of many distinguished scientists, who no doubt believe in some type of evolution, who find the mechanism of RM & NS severely wanting:
“some Neo-Darwinists have elevated Natural Selection into a unique creative force that solves all the difficult evolutionary problems without a real empirical basis. Many scientists today see the need for a deeper and more complete exploration of all aspects of the evolutionary process.” http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/ List of people who are members of The Third Way http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/people
bornagain77
Silver Asiatic @ 21, Points taken. I got bored after a few minutes due to its slow pace and familiar approach. It seems like it would be good for someone to critique his material. The banana routine in another of his videos sounded like it came straight from an evolutionary argument in a Biology text. You know, like the goofy ones that try to trace the evolution of mustaches in men or that compare human blood to the sea water of ancient oceans. Now that film was a real corker! ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32mHZbrVnuA -Q Querius
Marfin @17
rvb8- You also seem to have an aversion to answering straightforward questions. Any sign of that aversion going away and you answer my question re fossil ancestry.
So, you noticed that, too? All you read is Baseless Assertions and Pointless Vituperation. I wonder whether rvb8 is actually a Turing test using a BA/PV app. I once had had a similar experience when I was a kid trying to corner Eliza . . . -Q Querius
RM and NS is "not even wrong" Of note: The phrase "not even wrong" is generally attributed to theoretical physicist Wolfgang Pauli. Here is what Pauli said about evolution:
"In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of 'natural selection' in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely 'scientific' and 'rational,' they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word 'chance', not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word 'miracle.'" Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) - Letter by Pauli to Bohr of February 15, 1955
bornagain77
as to: " The fact is, RM+NS is all there is, and these mechanisms quite completely suffice to explain the variety of life as we know it." Dr. Sanford, among many others, begs to differ:
The waiting time problem in a model hominin population - 2015 Sep 17 John Sanford, Wesley Brewer, Franzine Smith, and John Baumgardner Excerpt: The program Mendel’s Accountant realistically simulates the mutation/selection process,,, Given optimal settings, what is the longest nucleotide string that can arise within a reasonable waiting time within a hominin population of 10,000? Arguably, the waiting time for the fixation of a “string-of-one” is by itself problematic (Table 2). Waiting a minimum of 1.5 million years (realistically, much longer), for a single point mutation is not timely adaptation in the face of any type of pressing evolutionary challenge. This is especially problematic when we consider that it is estimated that it only took six million years for the chimp and human genomes to diverge by over 5 % [1]. This represents at least 75 million nucleotide changes in the human lineage, many of which must encode new information. While fixing one point mutation is problematic, our simulations show that the fixation of two co-dependent mutations is extremely problematic – requiring at least 84 million years (Table 2). This is ten-fold longer than the estimated time required for ape-to-man evolution. In this light, we suggest that a string of two specific mutations is a reasonable upper limit, in terms of the longest string length that is likely to evolve within a hominin population (at least in a way that is either timely or meaningful). Certainly the creation and fixation of a string of three (requiring at least 380 million years) would be extremely untimely (and trivial in effect), in terms of the evolution of modern man. It is widely thought that a larger population size can eliminate the waiting time problem. If that were true, then the waiting time problem would only be meaningful within small populations. While our simulations show that larger populations do help reduce waiting time, we see that the benefit of larger population size produces rapidly diminishing returns (Table 4 and Fig. 4). When we increase the hominin population from 10,000 to 1 million (our current upper limit for these types of experiments), the waiting time for creating a string of five is only reduced from two billion to 482 million years. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4573302/ Genetic Entropy – peer reviewed references http://www.geneticentropy.org/#!properties/ctzx “The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the position of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.” Roger Lewin - Historic Chicago 'Macroevolution' conference of 1980 "Evolutionary Theory Under Fire" Science, vol. 210, 21 November, p. 883
bornagain77
PaV,, regarding your resort to "the math", i don't think you have any idea what you are saying. You seem to be claiming, for example, that we have no idea about the mechanisms that underlie the origins of, say, the Hawaiian silverswords. That is more than wrong, it is silly. (I believe this subject has been broached before here, and the anti evolution crowd reflexively resorted to "no fair, they're just plants".). As far as the alleged insufficiency of RM+NS, it is a fact that no antievolutionist has ever published any sort of well-controlled positive experimental evidence for this claim. The fact is, RM+NS is all there is, and these mechanisms quite completely suffice to explain the variety of life as we know it. The summit we are talking about proposes new modes of heritable variation, but it doesn't seem to question this core pillar. Arthur Hunt
In fact, in so far as the math of population genetics can be applied to Darwinian claims, it has falsified natural selection, which was Darwin's primary claim to scientific fame, under the bus:
Majestic Ascent: Berlinski on Darwin on Trial - David Berlinski - November 2011 Excerpt: The publication in 1983 of Motoo Kimura's The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution consolidated ideas that Kimura had introduced in the late 1960s. On the molecular level, evolution is entirely stochastic, and if it proceeds at all, it proceeds by drift along a leaves-and-current model. Kimura's theories left the emergence of complex biological structures an enigma (since natural selection was no longer the supposed ‘designer substitute’), but they played an important role in the local economy of belief. They allowed biologists to affirm that they welcomed responsible criticism. "A critique of neo-Darwinism," the Dutch biologist Gert Korthof boasted, "can be incorporated into neo-Darwinism if there is evidence and a good theory, which contributes to the progress of science." By this standard, if the Archangel Gabriel were to accept personal responsibility for the Cambrian explosion, his views would be widely described as neo-Darwinian. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/berlinski_on_darwin_on_trial053171.html "many genomic features could not have emerged without a near-complete disengagement of the power of natural selection" Michael Lynch The Origins of Genome Architecture, intro "a relative lack of natural selection may be the prerequisite for major evolutionary advance" Mae Wan Ho Beyond neo-Darwinism Evolution by Absence of Selection “Darwinism provided an explanation for the appearance of design, and argued that there is no Designer -- or, if you will, the designer is natural selection. If that's out of the way -- if that (natural selection) just does not explain the evidence -- then the flip side of that is, well, things appear designed because they are designed.” Richard Sternberg - Living Waters documentary Whale Evolution vs. Population Genetics - Richard Sternberg and Paul Nelson - (excerpt from Living Waters video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0csd3M4bc0Q
And whereas Darwinian evolution has no known law of nature to appeal to so as to establish itself as a proper, testable, science, Intelligent Design does not suffer from such a disconnect from physical reality. In other words, Intelligent Design can appeal directly to ‘the laws of conservation of information’ (Dembski, Marks, et al) in order to establish itself as a proper, testable, and rigorous science. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/consider-the-opossum-the-evidence-for-common-descent/#comment-609504 Moreover Lakatos, although he tipped toed around the failure of Darwinism to have a rigid demarcation criteria, he was brave enough to state that a good scientific theory will make successful predictions in science and a pseudo-scientific theory will generate ‘epicycle theories’ to cover up embarrassing failed predictions:
Science and Pseudoscience (transcript) - “In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts” – Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, , quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture http://www2.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/about/lakatos/scienceandpseudosciencetranscript.aspx Almost 20 years after Lakatos's 1973 challenge to the scientificity of Darwin, in her 1991 The Ant and the Peacock, LSE lecturer and ex-colleague of Lakatos, Helena Cronin, attempted to establish that Darwinian theory was empirically scientific in respect of at least being supported by evidence of likeness in the diversity of life forms in the world, explained by descent with modification. She wrote that “our usual idea of corroboration as requiring the successful prediction of novel facts...Darwinian theory was not strong on temporally novel predictions.” ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos#Darwin.27s_theory
And even by Lakatos's much softer falsification criteria, (a falsification criteria of just making successful predictions in science instead of subjecting a theory to direct empirical testing of its claims), we find that Darwinian evolution qualifies as a pseudo-science rather than qualifying as a hard science: Dr. Hunter comments here on Darwinism's failed predictions:
"Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought." ~ Cornelius Hunter "When their expectations turn out to be false, evolutionists respond by adding more epicycles to their theory that the species arose spontaneously from chance events. But that doesn’t mean the science has confirmed evolution as Velasco suggests. True, evolutionists have remained steadfast in their certainty, but that says more about evolutionists than about the empirical science." ~ Cornelius Hunter Here’s That Algae Study That Decouples Phylogeny and Competition - June 17, 2014 Excerpt: "With each new absurdity another new complicated just-so story is woven into evolutionary theory. As Lakatos explained, some theories simply are not falsifiable. But as a result they sacrifice realism and parsimony." - Cornelius Hunter http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/06/heres-that-algae-study-that-decouples.html
And following in Lakatos footsteps, Dr. Hunter has compiled a list of many of the major false predictions generated by evolutionary theory. False predictions that are fundamental to evolutionary theory, i.e. go to the ‘core’ of the theory, and falsify it from the inside out as it were.
Darwin's (failed) Predictions - Cornelius G. Hunter - 2015 This paper evaluates 23 fundamental (false) predictions of evolutionary theory from a wide range of different categories. The paper begins with a brief introduction to the nature of scientific predictions, and typical concerns evolutionists raise against investigating predictions of evolution. The paper next presents the individual predictions in seven categories: early evolution, evolutionary causes, molecular evolution, common descent, evolutionary phylogenies, evolutionary pathways, and behavior. Finally the conclusion summarizes these various predictions, their implications for evolution’s capacity to explain phenomena, and how they bear on evolutionist’s claims about their theory. *Introduction Why investigate evolution’s false predictions? Responses to common objections *Early evolution predictions The DNA code is not unique The cell’s fundamental molecules are universal *Evolutionary causes predictions Mutations are not adaptive Embryology and common descent Competition is greatest between neighbors *Molecular evolution predictions Protein evolution Histone proteins cannot tolerate much change The molecular clock keeps evolutionary time *Common descent predictions The pentadactyl pattern and common descent Serological tests reveal evolutionary relationships Biology is not lineage specific Similar species share similar genes MicroRNA *Evolutionary phylogenies predictions Genomic features are not sporadically distributed Gene and host phylogenies are congruent Gene phylogenies are congruent The species should form an evolutionary tree *Evolutionary pathways predictions Complex structures evolved from simpler structures Structures do not evolve before there is a need for them Functionally unconstrained DNA is not conserved Nature does not make leaps *Behavior Altruism Cell death *Conclusions What false predictions tell us about evolution https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/home Why investigate evolution’s false predictions? Excerpt: The predictions examined in this paper were selected according to several criteria. They cover a wide spectrum of evolutionary theory and are fundamental to the theory, reflecting major tenets of evolutionary thought. They were widely held by the consensus rather than reflecting one viewpoint of several competing viewpoints. Each prediction was a natural and fundamental expectation of the theory of evolution, and constituted mainstream evolutionary science. Furthermore, the selected predictions are not vague but rather are specific and can be objectively evaluated. They have been tested and evaluated and the outcome is not controversial or in question. And finally the predictions have implications for evolution’s (in)capacity to explain phenomena, as discussed in the conclusions. https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/why-investigate-evolution-s-false-predictions
Moreover, as bad as all of the preceding is for people who prefer to believe in Darwinian evolution no matter what the evidence says to the contrary, being a pseudo-science is not the worse failing of Darwinian evolution. The worst failing of Darwinian evolution is its naturalistic basis. Simply put, if we try to use naturalism as our basis for understanding the universe, and for practising science, then everything within that atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. sense of self. observation of reality, beliefs about reality, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination.
Darwinian evolution, and atheism/naturalism in general, are built entirely upon a framework of illusions and fantasy Excerpt: Thus, basically, without God, everything within the atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. supposed evidence for Darwinian evolution, observations of reality, beliefs about reality, sense of self, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination. It would be hard to fathom a more unscientific worldview than Darwinian evolution and Atheistic materialism/naturalism in general have turned out to be. Scientists should definitely stick with the worldview that brought them to the dance! i.e Christianity! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q94y-QgZZGF0Q7HdcE-qdFcVGErhWxsVKP7GOmpKD6o/edit
Verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
bornagain77
Art Hunt says that it is hard for him to see how anything that is being brought up in the conference would be a challenge to the theoretical core of Darwinian evolution. And he is right to claim that it hard to see how anything can be a challenge to Darwinian evolution. It should be very hard for anyone to see how anything can ever really be a challenge to the theoretical core of Darwinian evolution since Darwinian evolution does not even have a hard core to be challenged in the first place:
A Philosophical Question...Does Evolution have a Hard Core ? Some Concluding Food for Thought In my research on the demarcation problem, I have noticed philosophers of science attempting to balance (usually unconsciously) a consistent demarcation criteria against the disruptive effects that its application might have with regard to the academic status quo (and evolution in particular)… Few philosophers of science will even touch such matters, but (perhaps unintentionally) Imre Lakatos does offer us a peek at how one might go about balancing these schizophrenic demands (in Motterlini1999: 24) “Let us call the first school militant positivism; you will understand why later on. The problem of this school was to find certain demarcation criteria similar to those I have outlined, but these also had to satisfy certain boundary conditions, as a mathematician would say. I am referring to a definite set of people to which most scientists as well as Popper and Carnap would belong. These people think that there are goodies and baddies among scientific theories, and once you have defined a demarcation criterion. you should divide all your theories between the two groups. You would end up. for example, with a goodies list including Copernicus’s (Theory1), Galileo’s (T2), Kepler’s (T3), Newton’s (T4) … and Einstein’s (T5), along with (but this is just my supposition) Darwin’s (T6). Let me just anticipate that nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific, but this is exactly what we are looking for.” So basically, the demarcation problem is a fun game philosophers enjoy playing, but when they realize the implications regarding the theory of evolution, they quickly back off… http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/cosmos/philo/hardcore_pg.htm
Basically, Lakatos was referring to the fact that Darwinian evolution is not scientifically falsifiable. That it to say, there is no test that someone can perform in the lab that has the potential to directly falsify evolution. And since it is not falsifiable, then it does not qualify as a science but is more realistically classified as a pseudo-science along the lines of tea leaf reading:
“In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality.” Karl Popper – The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” – Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003
J. B. S. Haldane himself, one of the main founders of population genetics, basically agreed with the point that Darwinian evolution is untestable in the lab, and therefore unfalsifiable, when he offered up the laughable ‘pre-cambrian rabbit’ as a supposed test that could falsify evolution:
Haldane’s Pre-Cambrian Rabbit plus Natural Selection Falsified by Population Genetics – video https://youtu.be/zlGwjUJLgAE
The reason why Darwinian evolution, as it is presently configured, is a unfalsifiable pseudo-science is because it has no rigid mathematical basis to test against (As say Quantum Theory and General Relativity have a rigid mathematical basis to test against):
Deeper into the Royal Society Evolution Paradigm Shift Meeting – 02/08/2016 Suzan Mazur: Peter Saunders in his interview comments to me said that neo-Darwinism is not a theory, it’s a paradigm and the reason it’s not a theory is that it’s not falsifiable. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suzan-mazur/john-dupre-interview-deep_b_9184812.html Peter Saunders is Co-Director, Institute of Science in Society, London; Emeritus professor of Applied Mathematics, King’s College London. Peter Saunders has been applying mathematics in biology for over 40 years, in microbiology and physiology as well as in development and evolution. He has been a critic of neo-Darwinism for almost as long. Evolution is Missing a Mathematical Formula Excerpt: Virtually all scientists acknowledge that mathematics is the real language of science. Every theory uses words to describe and postulate the theory, but the true test of a theory is numbers and mathematics. It is numbers and mathematical formulae that distinguish true science from hocus-pocus.,,, Every scientific theory that has been promoted to the status of being a scientific law has been quantified and/or embodied into one or more mathematical formulae that make accurate predictions. But no scientist has been able to derive any working formula from the Theory of Evolution and no one has been able to quantify its dictums. Millions of scientists have tried to quantify the Theory of Evolution and they have all failed to do so. http://darwinconspiracy.com/article_1_rev2.php
The primary reason why no scientist has been able to ‘quantify its dictums’ is because there are no known laws of nature for Darwinists to appeal to to base their math on. In other words, there is no known ‘law of evolution’, such as there is a ‘law of gravity’, within the physical universe for us to test against:
“It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. The Evolution of Ernst: Interview with Ernst Mayr – 2004 Excerpt: biology (Darwinian Evolution) differs from the physical sciences in that in the physical sciences, all theories, I don’t know exceptions so I think it’s probably a safe statement, all theories are based somehow or other on natural laws. In biology, as several other people have shown, and I totally agree with them, there are no natural laws in biology corresponding to the natural laws of the physical sciences. ,,, And so that’s what I do in this book. I show that the theoretical basis, you might call it, or I prefer to call it the philosophy of biology, has a totally different basis than the theories of physics. per scientific american WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True – Roger Highfield – January 2014 Excerpt:,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—’laws’—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468
In fact, not only does Evolution not have any universal law to appeal to as other overarching theories of science have, Entropy, a law with great mathematical explanatory power in science, almost directly contradicts Darwinian claims that increases in functional complexity can be easily had (Granville Sewell, Andy McIntosh). Moreover, empirical evidence is also overwhelmingly telling us that Genetic Entropy, as an overriding principle for biology, i.e. genomic decay, holds for biology (Michael Behe, First Rule of Evolution, John Sanford, Genetic Entropy)
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Dr. John Sanford "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome" – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY98io7JH-c Genetic Entropy – peer reviewed references http://www.geneticentropy.org/#!properties/ctzx
bornagain77
Dennis Noble: By “replacement” I don’t mean to say that the mechanism of random change followed by selection does not exist as a possible mechanism. If the mechanism of random change followed by selection DOESN'T EXIST, what's the alternative professor Noble? Give us a few hints other than the ones you don't want to admit. J-Mac
Arthur: RM+NS couldn't explain evolution before. [What I mean is that look wherever you like, you will not find a sustained mathematical argument for how species arise. The argument is always that inheritable nucleotides can change from one generation to another, and that these nucleotide changes can become 'fixed.' What is left out, however, is how, over time, through numerous 'generations,' new 'species' arise. There is no 'proof,' but only 'conjecture.' And the 'conjecture' is rather sweeping, and un-detailed.] The situation is now worse in terms of "genetic load." We now have three levels of inheritance that can only be 'filtered' via mortality, or, genetic load. As to the two pillars, I grant you number (1), given that you've used the word ancestry and not inheritance. But number (2) was unsupported before, and now only becomes more problematic. If one looks at a 'trend line,' so to speak, the 'trend' is in the direction of finding more and more interactions--something that implies more and more types of feedback: i.e., complexity. More complexity is the friend of ID, and the enemy of Darwinism. Alas, as you know I've said, "another day, and another bad day for Darwinism." This trending increase in complexity is exactly what I have in mind when I write this phrase. Just like on Wall Street, "the trend is your friend!" PaV
I think sometime sit is useful to review just what Darwinism is, and what the significant revision adds. The two pillars of Darwin's theory: 1. All life shares a common ancestry. 2. The different forms of life arose (and arise) via natural selection acting on heritable phenotypic variability. The addition: The different forms of life arose (and arise) via the dual proceesss of fixation of random heritable variation and of natural selection acting on heritable phenotypic variability. It is hard to see how this summit changes either of these, at all. Fantastic and sweeping claims that these fundamentals are in some way being challenged are wrong. Just plain wrong. Arthur Hunt
I can't because you haven't fully explained your disagreement. That's what I'm urging you to do. State the case for why the medical and scientific community is wrong on this too. AhmedKiaan
AK: Stop playing a game. If you have issues with those who disagree with the HIV consensus, then state it in simple language. PaV
PaV, you've said that the HIV medical industry has serious fundamental problems, and the basic science is incoherent and wrong. Please explain those problems on a dedicated thread. It would be great to find out what all these issues are. If scientists are being deceptive like they are with evolution and global warming, lets get it out in the open and discuss it. AhmedKiaan
Commenters who have not read Mazur's Public Evolution Summit interviews are urged to do so. For the first time, the Darwinsmoke cleared and one was listening to modern-day evolutionary biology. People like Coyne are noisy relics now. Dawkins is running an anti-God crusade. I don;t think PZ Myers has invented a new swear word in the last decade. More later, be sure of it. News
Querius
The video looks pretty good from what I’ve seen of it.
The first 30 minutes are good - although even that went on too long, a lot was repeated. I object to the part at about 41:20 where Mr. Comfort interviews a Catholic student and starts giving him his theological views. From that point on for the next 25 minutes it's all basically Christian preaching in the style of Ray Comfort (which I don't like and don't agree with). Interviewing a Catholic in a movie directed at "the Atheist Delusion" was tasteless and demeaning, but that's very much in the style of Ray Comfort as I see him. An edited version with just the ID parts (maybe 20 minutes max) would be great. If not, it's more like something oriented to Evangelical church ministry, and that's certainly ok for its purpose. But even there, I enjoy watching David Rives who does a Creation Ministry program - very similar to Ray Comfort but more appealing in my opinion. But it's a different kind of ID than I'm familiar with, very Biblically based as the starting point. The science seems good. But they actually oppose ID because it doesn't name the designer as the God of Christian Faith. I always appreciate BA77's links - which come from a variety of sources, including atheists who support ID, so I hope we don't view my comments as a criticism of him or the great job he does in providing resources! And, in fact, I'm very glad to have heard about this video in the first place, so thank you! Silver Asiatic
OT: Dr. Paul Giem wraps up his review of Doug Axe's book 'Undeniable'
Undeniable (Part 9 - Chapters 13 & 14) 10-22-2016 by Paul Giem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-dZ-7Ff8D0&index=9&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUx3ngrgTIQyl-B2TaQBoq8
bornagain77
Bob O'H: I linked to a post pointing out the surprise finding of how ds-RNA migrates into the new gamete. If you look at the short video, it is quite remarkable. This is no small amount of ds-RNA that is being transferred. This is an additional mechanism. It further dilutes RM+NS. And it is always at the level of 'adaptation,' not 'innovation.' neo-Darwinism has always limped. Now it is in a wheelchair. William Provine, THE historian of neo-Darwinism, as his final work, decimates the underpinnings of the MS. He points out, over and over, that genetic changes in small populations occur not because of “random genetic drift,” but because of “inbreeding.” Neo-Darwinism is defective at its core. I am still stunned, now about seven or eight years later, that Fisher's "Fundamental Theorom of Natural Selection" comes from differentiating two equations used for actuarial tables (i.e., how to calculate the rate of death), and then equating the differentials! Wow! That's the "fundamental theorom"? Oh, my. And, of course, his "equation" finds great use in "statistical mechanics." You might as well say that increasing entropy causes evolution! Oh, wait. They do! Oh, my. Just go to your nearest 'heat bath' and see what nature has produced! PaV
Bob O'H, you are picking at inconsequential details in Noble's broad historical outline, Details that Noble purposely skipped over in order to make his presentation short and sweet so as too be able to highlight the more important empirical falsifications of neo-Darwinism in his short lecture. Moreover, you are apparently ignoring the much more important 'elephant in the living room' empirical falsifications against neo-Darwinism that Noble presented in his talk in order to focus on inconsequential historical details. It does not reflect well on you to be so disingenuous to the science at hand. As to your attempted, half hearted, defence of Dawkins, that is simply inexcusable. IMHO, Dawkins is almost single handedly responsible for leading the entire field of molecular biology down a blind path for decades with his 'selfish gene' concept: At the 10:30 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Trifonov states that the concept of the selfish gene 'inflicted an immense damage to biological sciences', for over 30 years:
Second, third, fourth… genetic codes - One spectacular case of code crowding - Edward N. Trifonov - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDB3fMCfk0E
also of note
Die, selfish gene, die - The selfish gene is one of the most successful science metaphors ever invented. Unfortunately, it’s wrong - Dec. 2013 Excerpt: But 15 years after Hamilton and Williams kited [introduced] this idea, it was embraced and polished into gleaming form by one of the best communicators science has ever produced: the biologist Richard Dawkins. In his magnificent book The Selfish Gene (1976), Dawkins gathered all the threads of the modern synthesis — Mendel, Fisher, Haldane, Wright, Watson, Crick, Hamilton, and Williams — into a single shimmering magic carpet (called the selfish gene). Unfortunately, say Wray, West-Eberhard and others, it’s wrong. https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/epigenetics-dawkins-selfish-gene-discredited-by-still-more-scientists-you-should-have-heard-of/
Of related note: It is certainly not your grandfather's selfish gene any more
Genes and Organisms: Improvising the Dance of Life - Stephen L. Talbott - Nov. 10, 2015 Excerpt: The performances of countless cells in your body are redirected and coordinated as part of a global narrative for which no localized controller exists. This redirection and coordination includes a unique choreography of gene expression in each individual cell. Hundreds or thousands of DNA sequences move (or are moved) within vast numbers of cell nuclei, and are subjected to extraordinarily nuanced, locally modulated chemical activity so as to contribute appropriately to bodily requirements that are nowhere codified — least of all in those DNA sequences.,,, DNA in its larger matrix You may recall from my earlier article, “Getting Over the Code Delusion” (Talbott 2010), that packing DNA into a typical cell nucleus is like packing about 24 miles of very thin, double-stranded string into a tennis ball, with the string cut up (in the normal human case) into 46 pieces, corresponding to our 46 chromosomes. To locate a protein-coding gene of typical size within all that DNA is like homing in on a one-half-inch stretch within those 24 miles. Or, rather, two relevant half-inch stretches located on different pieces of string, since we typically have two copies of any given gene. Except that sometimes one copy differs from the other and one version is not supposed to be expressed, or one version needs to be expressed more than the other, or the product of one needs to be modified relative to the other. So part of the job may be to distinguish one of those half-inch stretches from the other. “Decisions” everywhere, it seems. But no such decisions are made in a vacuum. As it happens, the chromosome does not consist of a naked DNA double helix. Our DNA, rather, is bound up with a massive, intricate, and dynamic protein-RNA-small molecule complex (called chromatin) that is as fully “informative” for the cell as the DNA sequence itself — and, you might say, much more active and directive.,,, the cell, by managing the shifting patterns of the chromatin infrastructure within which DNA is embedded, brings our chromosomes into movement on widely varying scales. These include large looping movements that put particular genes into connection with essential regulatory sequences and with other, related genes (that is, with other one-half inch stretches of our “24 miles of string in a tennis ball”).,,, A gene is not in any case the kind of rigidly defined entity one might hope to calculate with. As a functional unit appropriate to current circumstances, it must be cobbled together by the cell according to the needs of the moment. There is no neatly predefined path to follow once the cell has located the “right” half inch or so of string, or once it has done whatever is necessary to bring that locus into proper relation with other chromosomal loci participating in the same “dance”. One issue has to do with the fact that there are two strands in the DNA double helix and, starting from any particular point, it is possible to transcibe either of two DNA sequences in either of two directions: “forward” along one strand, or “backward” along the other. This yields two completely different products. One of them is very likely not even a protein-coding RNA, and yet it may still play a vital role in gene expression and in cellular processes more generally. And even when the cell would proceed in one particular direction, it must “choose” the exact point in the genetic sequence at which to begin. Different starting points can yield functionally distinct results. “Many studies focusing on single genes have shown that the choice of a specific transcription start site has critical roles during development and cell differentiation, and aberrations in . . . transcription start site use lead to various diseases including cancer, neuropsychiatric disorders, and developmental disorders”.8,,, The (protein) enzyme that transcribes DNA into RNA is RNA polymerase12. The enzyme certainly does not work alone, however, and its task is by no means cut-and-dried. To begin with, its critical interactions with various elements of the pre-initiation complex help determine whether and exactly where transcription will begin, if it is to begin at all. Then, after those “decisions” have been made, RNA polymerase moves along the double helix transcribing the sequence of genetic “letters” into the complementary sequence of an RNA. Throughout this productive journey, which is called elongation, the RNA polymerase still keeps good and necessary company. Certain co-activators modify it during its transit of a genetic locus, and these modifications not only enable transcription elongation to begin, but also provide binding sites for yet other proteins that will cooperate throughout the transcription journey.,,, Finally — and mirroring all the possibilities surrounding initiation of gene transcription — there are the issues relating to its termination. Again, they are far too many to mention here. Transcription may conclude at a more or less canonical terminus, or at an alternative terminus, or it may proceed altogether past the gene locus, even to the point of overlapping what, by usual definitions, would be regarded as a separate gene farther “downstream”. The cell has great flexibility in determining what, on any given occasion, counts as a gene, or transcriptional unit. The last part of the transcribed gene is generally non-protein-coding, but nevertheless contains great significance. Examining this region in a single gene, a research team recently identified “at least 35 distinct regulatory elements” to which other molecules can bind.13 Further regulatory potentials arise from yet more binding sites on the customized “tail” that the cell adds to the RNA immediately upon conclusion of its transcription. Proteins and other molecules that bind to the various regulatory elements of the non-protein-coding portion of the transcript do so in a context-sensitive manner, where cell and tissue type, phase of the cell cycle, developmental stage, location of the RNA within the cell, and environmental factors, both intra- and extra-cellular, may all play a role. These converging influences can change the stability of the RNA, change its localization within the cell, and change the efficiency of its translation into protein, among other possibilities.,,, What is generally considered the post-transcriptional modulation of gene expression actually begins during transcription proper. A prime example has to do with what happens partly as a result of the pauses during elongation. Cells don’t just passively accept the RNAs that emerge from the transcription process, but rather “snip and stitch” them via an elaborate procedure known as RNA splicing. It happens that the cutting out and knitting together of selected pieces typically begins before the RNA is fully transcribed, and the rhythm of pauses during elongation has an important influence upon which pieces form the mature transcript. This splicing operation, which is applied to nearly all human RNAs, is performed by the spliceosome, consisting of a few non-protein-coding RNAs and over 300 cooperating proteins, and is hardly less exacting in its requirements than, say, brain surgery. For the vast majority of human genes the operation can be performed in different ways, yielding distinct proteins (called isoforms) from a single RNA derived from a single DNA sequence. This is called alternative splicing, and it would be hard to find anything in human development, disease etiology, or normal functioning that is not dependent in one way or another on the effectiveness of this liberty the cell takes with its gene products. But RNA splicing is hardly the end of it. Through RNA editing the cell can add, delete, or substitute individual “letters” of the RNA sequence.15 Or, leaving the letters in place, the cell can chemically modify them in any of over one hundred different ways.16 ,,, Eventually, a protein-coding RNA needs to be translated into protein. This happens by means of large molecular complexes called “ribosomes”. Just as with gene transcription, there are many associated factors that must work together to bring about the initiation of translation, many that cooperate with the ribosome during translation, and yet others that play a role in modifying, localizing, or otherwise regulating the newly produced protein. The overall picture of gene expression is one of unsurveyable complexity in the service of remarkably effective living processes.,,, A decisive problem for the classical view of DNA is that “as cells differentiate and respond to stimuli in the human body, over one million different proteins are likely to be produced from less than 25,000 genes”.30 Functionally, in other words, you might say that we have over a million genes.,,, http://www.natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2015/genes_29.htm
bornagain77
rvb8- You also seem to have an aversion to answering straightforward questions. Any sign of that aversion going away and you answer my question re fossil ancestry. Marfin
rvb8, since you can not be bothered to watch the new Ray Comfort video because of your aversion to him making an erroneous claim of evidential support in the past from a banana, (which is a surprising aversion on your part since the history of Darwinian evolution is chock full of egregious and erroneous claims of evidential support in the past, (i.e. see junk DNA, vestigial organs, etc... etc... also see Cornelius Hunter's page "Darwin's Predictions"),,, anyways,, since your refined scientific sensibilities prevent you from ever watching a Ray Comfort video then I will ask you the main simple question from the video. OK, pretend you are holding, say, an evolutionary biology textbook in your hands and that you are thumbing through all the rich texts and pictures of the book. OK, got it?, now,, "Do you believe the book wrote itself by accident or do you believe that a person intentionally wrote that book?" And if you rightly, and sanely, believe that a person wrote that book, then do you also rightly, and sanely, believe that the information in DNA, (which is orders, upon orders, more complex and extensive than the information in the book is), is also written by a person? All the college kids in the video, who were atheistic at the beginning of the video, rightly agreed that it is impossible for unguided processes to write the information in the book and thus, by default, they also agreed that it is also impossible for the much more extensive and complex information in DNA to be written by accident, i.e. they agreed that a person had to intentionally write the information in DNA. In fact, no one has EVER seen unguided material processes created non-trivial information. Every time we see information generated in the world we invariably trace its source back to an intelligent agent! In fact, if you, or any Darwinists, can come up with just one example of unguided material processes creating non-trivial information then you would falsify ID and possibly net yourself up to 3 million dollars.
The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness The Origin of Information: How to Solve It - Perry Marshall Where did the information in DNA come from? This is one of the most important and valuable questions in the history of science. Cosmic Fingerprints has issued a challenge to the scientific community: “Show an example of Information that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.” “Information” is defined as digital communication between an encoder and a decoder, using agreed upon symbols. To date, no one has shown an example of a naturally occurring encoding / decoding system, i.e. one that has demonstrably come into existence without a designer. A private equity investment group is offering a technology prize for this discovery (up to 3 million dollars). We will financially reward and publicize the first person who can solve this;,,, To solve this problem is far more than an object of abstract religious or philosophical discussion. It would demonstrate a mechanism for producing coding systems, thus opening up new channels of scientific discovery. Such a find would have sweeping implications for Artificial Intelligence research. http://cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/
Moreover, ID uses the exact same method of science as Darwin himself used, i.e. presently acting cause known to produce the effect in question, thus if you try to say that ID is unscientific, then you are also, by default, saying that Darwinian evolution itself is unscientific:
Stephen Meyer: Charles Darwin's Methods, Different Conclusion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqq6JP5gE0E
verse:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
bornagain77
Thanks for the link at 8, ba77. Noble misrepresents the history:
Noble states that around 1900 there was the integration of Mendelian (discrete) inheritance with evolutionary theory,
No, Mendel's paper was rediscovered, but it was seen as an argument against Darwinian evolution.
... And then about 40 years later, circa 1940, a variety of people, Julian Huxley, R.A. Fisher, J.B.S. Haldane, and Sewell Wright, put things together to call it ‘The Modern Synthesis’.
The modern synthesis was just about completed by 1940 - Fisher started in 1915, and published The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection in 1930. Haldane published The Causes of Evolution in 1932.
So what exactly is the ‘The Modern Synthesis’? It is sometimes called neo-Darwinism, and it was popularized in the book by Richard Dawkins, ‘The Selfish Gene’ in 1976.
This certainly mis-represents Dawkins' aims: he was writing about an extension of The Modern Synthesis, where the effects of individuals on the fitness of other organisms could be analysed. I listened a bit further, but it just got worse: Noble doesn't seem to understand the difference between a mutation and the rate of mutation (the former can be random whilst the latter is under control). Bob O'H
Ray Comfort is premiairing his latest film in the hull of a land bound boat, that if put on water would sink. He is doing this in the company of an Ozzy who built said boat. Said Australian also has a museum with a Triceriatops with a saddle, 'like olden times'. In this museum we learn that kangaroos hopped to Australia from Arrarat, and none died on the way, hence only fossil kangaroos in Australia. Ken and Ray are made for each other. This is a straightforward and honest question. I am not trying to be smart or dismissive; 'Do you really want the ID movement associated with these people?' 'Q' I'm glad we agree that the immortalization of Comfort on youtube is embarassing. We can quibble over whether my natural evolved aversion to eating members of my own species, is equivalent to the utter scientific incompetance of a smiling, imbecile. Apparently, Ray and Ken contend (give me strength), the video shows knock down questions to atheists who are stumped by the logic and genius of said questions. Why am I never confronted by this rock solid evidence for God, all I get is you lot. Assertion, hearsay, mis-quotation, 'I saw the eyes of the statue weep blood' etc, and research from dubious sites at best. rvb8
Not true, rvb8. The video looks pretty good from what I've seen of it. But if you're going to bring up Ray Comfort's past, we may as well ask you about your past refusal to answer my question about your ridiculous dietary restrictions on eating certain types of highly nutritious animal protein based on atheistic "moral grounds." I'd say that was at least as embarrassing as Ray Comfort's the banana bit. -Q Querius
Only BA77 would link to a Ray Comfort (ashamedly, a fellow countryman), as if it merrited viewing. You do know BA about the youtube Ray Comfort/ Kirk Cameron, banana embarassment? He said, to paraphrase, 'God is real because the banana fits the human hand, and is easy to peal'. Honestly, he said that! You can see yourself on your own research tool, youtube! Have you ever seen a chimpanzee peal a banana? Don't, they do it as dextorously as we do; perhaps by this evidence God is a Chimp! I have a question for Mr Comfort, and Kirk; 'What was God thinking when he invented the coconut?' As to the post; Coyne is abrasive and cantankorous, but with a decent sense of humour, something soundly lacking in the posters here. rvb8
Only Seversky would think that the 'illusion of Coyne's' bluff and bluster carries any weight here on UD:
"What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 "The neural circuits in our brain manage the beautifully coordinated and smoothly appropriate behavior of our body. They also produce the entrancing introspective illusion that thoughts really are about stuff in the world. This powerful illusion has been with humanity since language kicked in, as we’ll see. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak." [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide To Reality, Ch.9] Atheist Philosopher Thinks "We Never Have Direct Access To Our Thoughts" - Michael Egnor July 20, 2016 Excerpt: Materialist theories of the mind border on the insane. If a man walks into a doctor's office and says "I never have direct access to my thoughts and I have no first person point of view," the man will be referred to a psychiatrist and may be involuntarily hospitalized until it is established that he is not a danger to himself or others. If the same guy walks into the philosophy department at Duke University, he gets tenure. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/07/atheist_philoso103010.html
Note to Seversky, illusions, by definition, are not to be taken seriously! Much less is a person who claims that he really is an illusion to be taken seriously! bornagain77
Since no one else here will do it, in spite of paying lip service to science, let's see what an evolutionary biologist like Jerry Coyne thinks of physiologist Dennis Noble's criticism of evolution:
I’m writing this post in a bit of anger, as Noble’s attacks on the modern synthesis are both poorly informed and clearly motivated by his ambition to make physiology a central part of evolutionary biology. Although he’s an FRS and famous, he wants more: he wants his field to be central to evolution. But such misguided hubris is not the way science is supposed to be done. And physiology is already important in evolutionary biology. It’s the reason why we look at the effects of a gene substitution, for example, not as a simple one-gene-produces-one-trait issue, but as a the gene’s overall effect on reproductive output through its effects ramifying through the complexities of development. Noble says that evolutionists are guilty of this “one-gene-one-trait” error, but he’s just wrong: I don’t know a single person in my field who holds this simplistic view. None of the arguments that Noble makes are new: they’re virtual tropes among those people, like James Shapiro and Lynn Margulis, who embarked, at the end of their careers, on a misguided crusade to topple the modern theory of evolution. However famous Noble may be in physiology, he’s a blundering tyro when it comes to evolutionary biology. He might try discussing his ideas with other evolutionists and listening to their responses. He obviously hasn’t done that, and yet travels the world trading on his expertise in physiology to show that the edifice of modern evolutionary biology is rotten. And he writes papers to that effect, including the dreadful piece referenced below. But what’s really rotten is Noble’s knowledge of the field and his claim that virtually every assumption of neo-Darwinian evolution is wrong. In fact, his arguments are so rotten that they stink like old herring. They’re not even wrong.
Seversky
"For the three-thousandth time, if Darwin has written a book titled, “The Origin of Adaptations,” no one would have quibbled so much." Maybe a bit of quibbling with "Origin of Adaptations", PaV? Take the Peppered Moth for example. The lighter colored moth already existed in the population. Only after its darker brothers were eaten would the lighter peppered version proliferate. The camouflage design/ability was already in place. No origin of the adaption in the moth. How about "Origin of the Easiest Meal"? ppolish
Dr. Noble's critique of the modern synthesis of neo-Darwinism is pretty devastating as far as it goes,,,
Rocking the foundations of biology - video http://www.voicesfromoxford.org/video/physiology-and-the-revolution-in-evolutionary-biology/184
,, In the preceding video, Dr Nobel states that around 1900 there was the integration of Mendelian (discrete) inheritance with evolutionary theory, and about the same time Weismann established what was called the Weismann barrier, which is the idea that germ cells and their genetic materials are not in anyway influenced by the organism itself or by the environment. And then about 40 years later, circa 1940, a variety of people, Julian Huxley, R.A. Fisher, J.B.S. Haldane, and Sewell Wright, put things together to call it ‘The Modern Synthesis’. So what exactly is the ‘The Modern Synthesis’? It is sometimes called neo-Darwinism, and it was popularized in the book by Richard Dawkins, ‘The Selfish Gene’ in 1976. It’s main assumptions are, first of all, is that it is a gene centered view of natural selection. The process of evolution can therefore be characterized entirely by what is happening to the genome. It would be a process in which there would be accumulation of random mutations, followed by selection. (Now an important point to make here is that if that process is genuinely random, then there is nothing that physiology, or physiologists, can say about that process. That is a very important point.) The second aspect of neo-Darwinism was the impossibility of acquired characteristics (mis-called “Larmarckism”). And there is a very important distinction in Dawkins’ book ‘The Selfish Gene’ between the replicator, that is the genes, and the vehicle that carries the replicator, that is the organism or phenotype. And of course that idea was not only buttressed and supported by the Weissman barrier idea, but later on by the ‘Central Dogma’ of molecular biology. Then Dr. Nobel pauses to emphasize his point and states “All these rules have been broken!”. Of note: Professor Denis Noble is President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences.
"Physiology Is Rocking the Foundations of Evolutionary Biology": Another Peer-Reviewed Paper Takes Aim at Neo-Darwinism - Casey Luskin March 31, 2015 Excerpt: Noble doesn't mince words: "It is not only the standard 20th century views of molecular genetics that are in question. Evolutionary theory itself is already in a state of flux (Jablonka & Lamb, 2005; Noble, 2006, 2011; Beurton et al. 2008; Pigliucci & Muller, 2010; Gissis & Jablonka, 2011; Shapiro, 2011). In this article, I will show that all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis (often also called Neo-Darwinism) have been disproved." Noble then recounts those assumptions: (1) that "genetic change is random," (2) that "genetic change is gradual," (3) that "following genetic change, natural selection leads to particular gene variants (alleles) increasing in frequency within the population," and (4) that "inheritance of acquired characteristics is impossible." He then cites examples that refute each of those assumptions,,, He then proposes a new and radical model of biology called the "Integrative Synthesis," where genes don't run the show and all parts of an organism -- the genome, the cell, the body plan, everything -- is integrated. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/physiology_is_r094821.html
As I said, and as is obvious from the preceding article by Casey Luskin, Dr. Noble's critique of the modern synthesis of neo-Darwinism is pretty devastating as far as it goes. Where his critique does not go far enough, in my honest opinion, is that Dr. Nobel still holds onto the notion that there is some type of gradual pathway for unguided material processes to traverse between species, i.e. universal common descent. That belief that there is still some type of gradual pathway for unguided material processes to traverse between species is simply false. The best way to point this fact out is with alternative splicing codes. Although the protein coding regions between species are unexpectedly similar between species, (and indeed Darwinists try to use the approx. 80% thru 98% genetic similarity, according to varying estimates, between chimps and humans as knock down proof that humans evolved from some type of chimp-like ancestor), alternative splicing codes are found to be 'species specific'. That is to say, alternative splicing codes, (which are regulatory codes that tell which genes when and where to turn on and off in an organism), are codes which are unique, i.e. tailor-made if you will, for each 'kind' of species.
Evolution by Splicing - Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. - Ruth Williams - December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F Alternative splicing of RNA rewires signaling in different tissues, may contribute to species differences - December 21, 2012 Excerpt: After analyzing vast amounts of genetic data, the researchers found that the same genes are expressed in the same tissue types, such as liver or heart, across mammalian species. However, alternative splicing patterns—which determine the segments of those genes included or excluded—vary from species to species.,,, The results from the alternative splicing pattern comparison were very different. Instead of clustering by tissue, the patterns clustered mostly by species. "Different tissues from the cow look more like the other cow tissues, in terms of splicing, than they do like the corresponding tissue in mouse or rat or rhesus," Burge says. Because splicing patterns are more specific to each species, it appears that splicing may contribute preferentially to differences between those species, Burge says,,, Excerpt of Abstract: To assess tissue-specific transcriptome variation across mammals, we sequenced complementary DNA from nine tissues from four mammals and one bird in biological triplicate, at unprecedented depth. We find that while tissue-specific gene expression programs are largely conserved, alternative splicing is well conserved in only a subset of tissues and is frequently lineage-specific. Thousands of previously unknown, lineage-specific, and conserved alternative exons were identified; per physorg Gene Regulation Differences Between Humans, Chimpanzees Very Complex – Oct. 17, 2013 Excerpt: Although humans and chimpanzees share,, similar genomes, previous studies have shown that the species evolved major differences in mRNA (messenger RNA) expression levels.,,, per science daily
The following papers help drive the point home as to just how devastating 'species specific' alternative splicing codes are for any attempted gradual explanations:
Widespread Expansion of Protein Interaction Capabilities by Alternative Splicing - 2016 In Brief Alternatively spliced isoforms of proteins exhibit strikingly different interaction profiles and thus, in the context of global interactome networks, appear to behave as if encoded by distinct genes rather than as minor variants of each other.,,, Page 806 excerpt: As many as 100,000 distinct isoform transcripts could be produced from the 20,000 human protein-coding genes (Pan et al., 2008), collectively leading to perhaps over a million distinct polypeptides obtained by post-translational modification of products of all possible transcript isoforms (Smith and Kelleher, 2013). http://iakouchevalab.ucsd.edu/publications/Yang_Cell_OMIM_2016.pdf Frequent Alternative Splicing of Human Genes – 1999 Excerpt: Alternative splicing can produce variant proteins and expression patterns as different as the products of different genes. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC310997/
Of related interest to the 'strikingly different interaction profiles' for the up to a million unique polypeptides generated by alternative splicing, is Behe’s vindicated limit for the 'Edge of Evolution'. A limit for what evolutionary processes can accomplish. A limit which is put at generating just 2 new protein-protein binding sites by unguided Darwinian processes. i.e. 1 in 10^40,,,
Kenneth Miller Steps on Darwin’s Achilles Heel – Michael Behe – January 17, 2015 Excerpt: Miller grants for purposes of discussion that the likelihood of developing a new protein binding site is 1 in 10^20. Now, suppose that, in order to acquire some new, useful property, not just one but two new protein-binding sites had to develop. In that case the odds would be the multiple of the two separate events — about 1 in 10^40, which is somewhat more than the number of cells that have existed on earth in the history of life. That seems like a reasonable place to set the likely limit to Darwinism, to draw the edge of evolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/kenneth_miller_1092771.html Michael Behe – Observed (1 in 10^20) Edge of Evolution – video – Lecture delivered in April 2015 at Colorado School of Mines 25:56 minute quote – “This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svV8wNUqvA
In what should be needless to say, since Darwinian evolution presupposes the unlimited plasticity of organisms, then this finding of inflexible, yet radically different, alternative splicing patterns between even supposedly closely related species is exactly the opposite finding for what would have been expected by Darwinists. If Darwinian evolution were a normal science that was subject to rigorous testing like other sciences, instead of being basically the unfalsifiable pseudo-science/religion that it is, this finding, by itself, should have been more than enough to falsify Darwinian evolution outright and consign it forever to the dust bin of failed scientific theories. But alas, evidence does not, and never did, really ever matter for die-hard Darwinists. Only their rejection of God truly matters for them. Don't believe me? Well if rebellion against God is not central to hard core Darwinian thought then why has Darwinian literature always been so dependent on bad liberal theology in order to try to make its case for Darwinian evolution?
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human beings are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. per ENV Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, per ENV Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740
If you are shocked that Darwinian evolution would be so dependent of bad liberal theology, then perhaps it time for you to seriously question just exactly what it is that hard core Darwinists are really trying to sell you? bornagain77
Hitler's secretary Traudl Junge wrote that they were in the Reich bunker in Berlin while the soviet army was around the corner, the American and British armies had taken over most west/south Germany but the Fuhrer and a few of his closest comrades still believed their Reich (built to last 1000 years) was invincible. History repeats. Pathetically bizarre. Dionisio
Clearly, the Royal Society will not be discussing- "Evolution: The Creation Myth of Our Culture -- TrueOrigin Archive." https://www.trueorigin.org/evomyth01.php mw
By “replacement” I don’t mean to say that the mechanism of random change followed by selection does not exist as a possible mechanism. But it becomes one mechanism amongst many others, and those mechanisms must interact. So my argument for saying this is a matter of replacement rather than extension is simply that it was adirect intention of those who formulated the modern synthesis to exclude the inheritance of acquired characteristics.
Darwin proposed that evolution was via natural selection + the inheritance of acquired characteristics + numerous other mechanisms. If including the inheritance of acquired characteristics is a replacement of the Modern Synthesis, then was the Modern Synthesis a replacement for Darwin's theory when it excluded the inheritance of acquired characteristics? And if re-including the inheritance of acquired characteristics is a replacement of the Modern Synthesis, then aren't we replacing the Modern Synthesis with something more akin to Darwin's theory? Using Denis's logic it would make more sense to make the title of this OP "Replacement of the Modern Synthesis with Darwinian evolution theory". goodusername
BA77, Thank you for posting the reference to that interesting video. @5:20 they say that genes give instructions to the cell. That does not seem quite accurate, does it? Dionisio
That's an odd argument by Noble, and I'm not sure if it's even historically correct. The modern synthesis was developed to combine Darwin's ideas with the data from genetics that had been developed. And even if he is historically correct, so what? The architects of the modern synthesis are long dead, so why do we have to follow their agenda? as far as the science goes, Noble seems to be suggesting that evolutionary biology should be Mendelian genetics plus epigenetics, i.e. in practice he's suggesting that we extend evolutionary biology by adding inheritance of acquired characteristics. Which would be very interesting (I've seen a couple of theoretical papers on this, but more is definitely needed). The nice thing is that we are gathering the empirical evidence to show that acquired characteristics can be inherited, so our models will be better informed: this isn't just pie in the sky. Bob O'H
Noble rightly points to the exclusion of non-Mendelian forms of inheritance, such as epigenetics, as the problem spot for neo-Darwinism, or, the Modern Synthesis. I posted here about a type of non-Mendelian inheritance that works independently of epigenetics and is now seen to work on scale previously unimaginable. So there are severe problems for neo-Darwinism. It has competitors. And we all know that competition fuels the "survival of the fittest." But what Noble isn't saying, or perhaps, doesn't choose to look at presently, is that both epigenetics and the new double-stranded RNA modes of inheritance are really about 'adaptation.' For the three-thousandth time, if Darwin has written a book titled, "The Origin of Adaptations," no one would have quibbled so much. Let's face it: neo-Darwinism (pure population genetics), epigenetics, and even ds-RNA inheritance, isn't going to explain new "species." [What are called new "species" today really should be simply called "varieties." According to Darwin, an "incipient species", his word for "varieties", moves in a new and separate direction from the past. We don't see this happening; and, so, this whole notion of "new species" is nothing but rhetoric.] ID is the only plausible mechanism we know of that can accomplish a new, 'integrated,' whole we would call a "new species." PaV
Off Topic: Ray Comfort's new movie "The Atheist Delusion" is finally up on YouTube The Atheist Delusion Movie (2016) HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChWiZ3iXWwM Of note: The movie leans heavily on Intelligent Design inspired arguments bornagain77

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