Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has the American Scientific Affiliation Forgotten Their Stated Identity?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

According to Dr. Katharine Hayhoe, a plenary session speaker at the July 2011 American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) annual meeting, anthropogenic climate change is a scientific fact and the reason that many Evangelical Christians do not believe it is that the “science is complex and they cannot see it happening in their own backyards.” In her opinion, Christian groups are exacerbating the problem by “lying and spreading false information” about global warming, even though “98% of scientists agree that it is settled science.” She said that this is an example of where science and faith are in conflict (?) and we need to educate our churches about the issue so that they understand that questioning anthropogenic global climate change is anti-science. Of course, it seems to me, that if they are willfully lying about the issue, questioning must also be anti-Christian.

Now, hear me accurately. I am not saying that anthropogenic climate change is or is not true—I am not a climate scientist. And I do agree with Dr. Hayhoe that we should be responsible in how we use the Earth’s resources and mindful of those who are victims of natural disaster. I have implemented her only suggestion for remediation by using Compact Fluorescent Light bulbs and have even gone one better—I walk to the grocery store. But seriously, I do not consider it to be anti-science or unChristian to be intrigued that Dr. Ivar Giaever, Nobel prize winning physicist, and Dr. Harold Lewis, physics professor emeritus from University of California, Santa Barbara resigned their memberships at the American Physical Society (APS) over the APS’s refusal to consider all the scientific evidence surrounding this issue. I believe that evidence should be heard and considered and that those who do not agree with the politically correct consensus should not be labeled as uneducated or unChristian. Naturally, after a talk like this, those who had questions about the veracity of manmade global climate change or the cost/benefit ratio of governmental policies on controlling carbon dioxide emissions did not feel free to ask questions.

As a current ASA member, I was in attendance at the ASA meeting entitled, Science-Faith Synergy: Glorifying God and Serving Humanity. The result is that I have become very concerned about this organization. It appears that the ASA has forgotten who they are supposed to be: “a fellowship of men and women of science and disciplines that can relate to science who share a common fidelity to the Word of God and a commitment to integrity in the practice of science.” Instead, the meeting was explicitly slanted towards promotion of consensus science, theistic evolution (TE) and what appeared to be a very watered down version of Christianity. ASA says that they have “no official position on evolution” and are a Christian organization that “accept the divine inspiration, trustworthiness and authority of the Bible in matters of faith and conduct,” but the content of several of the talks and the attitude of some of the speakers at the conference failed to embrace this commitment. The below paragraph was taken from the ASA website:

As an organization, the ASA does not take a position when there is honest disagreement between Christians on an issue. We are committed to providing an open forum where [scientific] controversies can be discussed without fear of unjust condemnation. Legitimate differences of opinion among Christians who have studied both the Bible and science are freely expressed within the Affiliation in a context of Christian love and concern for truth.

Although this statement projects the appearance of an environment where integrity in science and scientists who want to discuss their thoughts and follow the evidence where it leads could thrive, this is far from accurate. The purported openness to discussion of scientific controversies expressed on the ASA website is clearly disingenuous.

In fact, the organization appears to have strayed far from both their commitment to integrity in science (telling the whole story) and their Christian identity and is now ostracizing both scientists who question consensus science and those who are self-identified evangelical Christians. As a result, science-based reservations about evolution, global warming, and other controversial topics were not openly discussed. One scientist, who believes that Intelligent Design (ID) theory has merit from a scientific viewpoint, identified himself to me with the words, “feels like hostile territory here.” Speakers who made lock-step derogatory remarks about “conservative Christians,” “creationists,” and “ID people” doubtless fueled this perceived hostility.

Of the presenters I heard, Dr. Mark Winslow of Southern Nazarene University in Oklahoma was particularly offensive, labeling anyone who does not accept all aspects of evolutionary theory as “scientifically and theologically illiterate.” His paper was on how 15 Christian students moved from an “immature Young Earth perspective” with “little tolerance for ambiguity” to an “adult faith” that can “accommodate degrees of dissonance” after accepting the “authority” of the “trained evolutionist” professor. Take home message: If one questions aspects of evolution, one is an immature Christian. Those who are faced with educating recalcitrant churches full of Darwin-doubters were counseled to show patience until the creationists come to understand that the scientific evidence should be more important than the Bible in their formation of a worldview. I hope he did not mean that!

Despite the fact that the ASA conference brochure says presenters should maintain a “humble and loving attitude towards individuals who have a different opinion,” a moderator in the session then repeated Dr. Winslow’s slur about illiteracy as if it were a joke, instead of deeply offensive to those who have science-based reservations about the merits of some aspects of evolutionary theory.

Until this ASA meeting I did not really think that the debate about evolution was terribly relevant to Christian faith and, as a former research scientist, I knew that doubting the evolutionary dogma does not affect my ability to “do” science. Personally, I “believed in” evolution for twenty years after I made my decision to profess faith in Christ. It was not my faith that caused me to question aspects of evolution or to consider that there is merit to ID. Rather, it was the science, the cell biology.

I am currently a self-confessed evolutionary agnostic—I see that there is intriguing scientific evidence for some aspects of evolution, but also acknowledge that there are holes in that evidence. For example, my knowledge of the cell shows me that the stated mechanism whereby macroevolution is said to proceed does not work. I see logic in the view of ID proponents, but also realize that ID is a theory in process. I find TE both academically and theologically frustrating. Academically, I am unwilling to commit to having the faith necessary to believe that the whole of evolutionary theory will be proven right eventually. Theologically, I am confused about the presupposition that, even though God created the world, His action must by definition be completely undetectable. I thought that I would find many like-minded people at a conference for Christians in science. After all, scientists are known for having questioning minds and Christians value humility, so Christian scientists should be very willing to consider that their scientific or theological understanding is probably incomplete.

But, what I learned at the ASA conference was that reason the debate over evolution matters is that it is a symptom of a much more serious disease: the elevation of the authority of science and the scientific community above the claims and values of the Bible and Christianity. Scientism is a belief system where science becomes the preeminent way to ascertain all truth, making scientists—well, very important people. Symptoms of scientism much in evidence at the ASA conference were the repeated assertions that “all real scientists think…” and the communicated attitude that we need to accept the consensus of the scientific community and, if necessary, change our interpretation of the Bible to fit with the science.

Dr. Francis Collins, Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), exemplifies this type of thinking when he says, “And people are beginning to argue in very irrational ways based on a lack of understanding what the science says. If we could back off from all of the, sort of, hard edged rhetoric and really say, okay, what is science teaching us, I suspect that the moral dilemmas [involved with the use of embryonic stem cells for research purposes] are not nearly as rough as people think they are.” The idea that science should inform our interpretation of Scripture contains some truth and some untruth (e.g. science being able to teach us morality), as do most harmful ideas. Unfortunately, at much of the ASA meeting, it was the first step on a slippery slope to so much more.

Dr. Gareth Jones gave another of the plenary session lectures. During the first part of the talk on neuroscience and reproduction, he set up a hypothetical situation wherein a couple already have a child with a genetic disease, have a ¼ chance of their next child also having the disease, do not feel that they could cope with the stress and work of another sick child, but would like more children. Dr. Jones outlined that this couple has four options.
1) Decide not to have more children,
2) Take the risk and have a child,
3) Conceive a child, have pre-birth testing, and abort if the child has the disease, and
4) Donate eggs and sperm for in vitro fertilization and genetic testing,
with the intention of not implanting any defective embryo. Dr. Jones stated that Options 1, 2 and 4 are the only ones that would be acceptable for a Christian, making it appear as if he is assuming that human life does not begin at conception. A questioner who asked about a 5th option (birth followed by adoption) was shot down with the reply that that this would still allow a “defective” person to be born and that “freely chosen ignorance is not a virtue.”

Dr. Francis Collins, who is a self-proclaimed evangelical Christian and long time member of the ASA, also seems unclear about the ethics of using human embryos for research. He says that “human embryos deserve moral status” but that it may be more ethical to use the 400,000 embryos that are currently frozen for “breathtakingly” beneficial research than to “discard them.” If the leading scientist in our country believes this, why then should an ASA plenary session speaker commit to the Biblical view that human life from conception onwards is sacred, as is espoused in Ps 139:13? One may argue that the ASA is a place where all views can be discussed “without fear of unjust condemnation,” but this should surely be held in tension with their self-proclaimed acceptance of Biblical authority.

The ASA bias towards a liberal form of Christianity and elevating science above Scripture continued. During parallel session talks on the ethics of neuroscience and reproduction by a number of speakers, attendees at the ASA meeting were informed that science shows that sexuality is fluid and so it might be unethical to offer help to those wanting to change their sexual orientation (or identity). After all, the scientific consensus is that one does not choose to be homosexual, transgendered, or even a pedophile. Dr. Heather Looy, a psychologist from King’s University College, was concerned that we be compassionate and not keep homosexual people from enjoying a full sexual experience. A lovely person herself, who practices what she preaches, she stressed that we should not judge those different from ourselves. Dr. William Struthers from Wheaton acknowledged that the traditional family unit with a father and a mother is best for children, but also explained that gender is a spectrum and that Christians should hold science and Scripture in tension, realizing that God is love incarnate.

Of course, Christians should be aware that we are all sinners saved by grace and this should make us as compassionate to those caught in sexual sin as we would want them to be towards us in our sin. In addition, we all have character traits that predispose us to be more tempted by certain sins than we are by others. You may be tempted to sleep with someone of the same gender; I would be more tempted by a juicy piece of gossip. Giving in is sin, no matter the temptation. However, the traditional understanding of the Biblical teaching is that that the Lord gave us rules for our benefit and safety, not because He wants to be a spoilsport, and that obedience, no matter how difficult, is always the best way to attain fullness of joy. The current politically-correct scientific consensus does not negate this. For Christians science does not trump the Bible.

Finally, there were several presentations on why science must be methodologically naturalistic and why we should help our churches to accept that evolution is a fact. The final session was offered by Ruth Bancewicz from the Faraday Institute at Cambridge University on a course called Test of Faith. The purpose of Test of Faith, which is now travelling the country giving presentations at places like Gordon College, MIT, Wheaton, Fairfax Community Church, Bethel University, Point Loma Nazarene, and California Institute of Technology sounds wonderful and very in keeping with both good science and Christianity. It is to show how science is compatible with faith by highlighting various believing scientists. But, the producers have a self-admitted bias towards theistic evolution, as do the majority of the scientists (Francis Collins, Jennifer Wiseman, and John Polkinghorne), and so only represent a part of the entire community of Christians in science. Certainly, although there is a lot of recommended reading on their website, I could find no mention of Stephen Meyers’ Signature in the Cell or Michael Behe’s The Edge of Evolution. Test of Faith has been working with Youth for Christ, ASA, and the Bible Society and is well-funded by the Templeton Foundation.

So, what is the worry? The entire picture. ASA and BioLogos, the organization started by Dr. Francis Collins, and Test of Faith, backed by Templeton Foundation money, working together to convert the Christian world to a belief in evolution and, if the parts of the ASA meeting that I witnessed were anything to go by, a very watered down version of Christianity. These groups are also working with InterVarsity Fellowship, Youth for Christ, and the Bible Society. They are targeting universities, seminaries, and churches with their message that belief in evolution is compatible with faith and that all people of intelligence should embrace evolutionary theory as fact. Quite apart from the scientific problems with this view, some people are questioning whether the faith that is being espoused is still orthodox Christianity. The fruit of the ASA meeting, which included arguing based on ad hominem attacks, advocating a type of Scientism, equivocating about the sanctity of life, and disregarding Biblical standards for sexuality, suggests that it is not. ASA has forgotten its stated identity. ASA has lost its way.

Personally, I hope that, with the help and support of those of us who disagree with the turn they have taken, the ASA will get back on track. I’ll be looking forward to next year’s meeting in San Diego! Meanwhile, why not check out a scientific association that really does encourage the open discussion of controversial subjects in a non-hostile environment? American Institute for Technology and Science Education (AITSE) is such a place. Our vision is to promote good science, based on impartial evaluation of evidence, not mere consensus. Our mission is ”…to improve science education and encourage scientific integrity” and “offer clear, reliable and balanced education with the goal of liberating science and technology from ideology, politics and the restrictions of consensus…”

Dr. Caroline Crocker, who holds an MSc in medical microbiology and a PhD in immunopharmacology, is President of AITSE. If you enjoyed this article, please “like” AITSE on Facebook, follow Caroline on Twitter, and sign up for AITSE’s monthly newsletter. If you would like to help AITSE with its work to restore integrity to science, please donate generously. Finally, if you are a scientist or physician of integrity, please consider applying to join AITSE’s scientific consortium. Together we can make a difference.

Comments
Have long duration experiments on bacteria or fruitflies demonstrated anything like speciation?
Yes. Also field studies. Have we seen anything like spontaneous self-organisation (as opposed to self-ordering)? What does "spontaneous self-organisation (as opposed to self-ordering)" mean? And could you answer my question about phyla?Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
06:11 AM
6
06
11
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, And another circle we go... Have long duration experiments on bacteria or fruitflies demonstrated anything like speciation? Have we seen anything like spontaneous self-organisation (as opposed to self-ordering)?Eugene S
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
06:03 AM
6
06
03
AM
PDT
No, I did not mean that. However, if by Todd's "schizophrenic" position you mean the one you seemed be talking of with approval, then I agree, they are the same. I don't think they are "schizophrenic" however. Both differ, for example, from that of Kurt Wise, whose position I would so describe, were I to use that word in that way, which, being a schizophrenia researcher, I don't! I do agree with you that they are wrong. However, I am now very puzzled about your own position: what do you advocate with regard to reconciling theology with science, if the one you advanced was only "hypothetical"?Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
06:00 AM
6
06
00
AM
PDT
Elizabeth (re 30.2.2.3): I will take your ambiguous "OK" at the beginning of your message as the closest thing I am going to get to an admission: "Yes, you were right; Todd Wood does say what you said he said; he is committed to his reading of Genesis no matter what the scientific evidence suggests, and he does believe that, when push comes to shove, if the best human reasoning from the data indicates an evolutionary origin, faith requires the surrender of the best human reasoning to the Biblical teaching." I'm glad we now agree on that point. :-) Now, I read the article that you linked me to. There is nothing in it incompatible with the understanding of Wood that I presented to you, so I am not sure why you wanted me to read it. In any case, I will go to the quotation you took from me: EL: You seem to support the argument Timaeus: "…that, since the traditional interpretation of the Bible or traditional theology is sound, the currently accepted science must be a misinterpretation of nature, and scientists should go back to the drawing board, doing new experiments to get better data, or interpreting the same data differently, in order to make the truth of science conform to the known truth of the Bible." No, Elizabeth, I don't support that argument at all. You can't have read my previous explanation very carefully, because I said clearly that I was putting forth that argument only hypothetically, in order to show the inconsistency of Biologos. I was saying that if Biologos is sincere about its vaunted equality of faith and science as equally valid sources of knowledge, it would at least sometimes use verified theological knowledge to send inadequate science back to the drawing board, just as it frequently uses allegedly verified scientific knowledge to send allegedly inadequate theology back to the drawing board. But in practice, in any case of conflict, Biologos *always* recommends changing theology and Biblical interpretation on the basis of what scientists say about nature, and *never* recommends that scientists reconsider what they think about nature based on what expert scholars say about the Bible or theology. My argument was of the form: "Biologos, since you think X, you logically also have to endorse Y, but you don't endorse Y, so your account is illogical hash." I was making no comment whatsoever on the correctness of either X or Y. As for your last question, I disagree with Todd Wood on just about everything -- everything of major importance, I mean. I don't agree that faith could ever require the surrender of the intellect, or of the best human reasoning, on questions of origins, or on any other question. And I completely disagree with his literalist/inerrantist Biblical hermeneutics; I don't think he understands the nature of Biblical literature at all. Mind you, Todd Wood's position is intellectually more respectable than the position of Biologos. It is a principled position, which draws clear lines in the intellectual sand, and it is a position which takes courage to hold, as it draws down upon its holder the ridicule of the world. Todd Wood is willing to make intellectual choices and stick with them. Biologos, on the other hand, is not motivated by any clear theoretical principle, unless you count "I love Jesus and I love evolution, too" as a clear theoretical principle; and it seems driven in large part by a craven need to ingratiate itself with secular biologists such as Ayala and Coyne by denouncing creationism and ID. Thus, I give Todd Wood 10 out of 10 for spine and clarity of purpose; I give Biologos failing scores on both. T.Timaeus
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
05:21 AM
5
05
21
AM
PDT
No Elizabeth, there isn't any way to test the premise. If there were you would have presented it. And I don't care what scientists think. I care what they can demonstrate. I looked at the evidence for endosymbuiosis and it boils down to "it looks like it to me" and that is not scientific. I read Woese. I read Margulis. I used to be an evolutionist until I pulled my head out and actually looked.Joseph
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:50 AM
4
04
50
AM
PDT
Yes, there are lots of ways to test the premise, Joseph. And, tbh, Joseph, I think you are the gullible one - you seem to have been persuaded that there "isn't any evidence" for any of the evolutionary hypotheses that the overwhelming majority of evolutionary scientists think there is. I guess if you don't look for evidence, you won't find it. that doesn't mean it isn't there. Read Woese's paper for a start, and whenever he mentions "evidence", check it out. A lot of it is genetic.Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:48 AM
4
04
48
AM
PDT
Petrushka:
This “There isn’t any evidence” line is getting pretty stale.
The truth gets stale for those who don't like it.
How about you demonstrate your knowledge of this issue by presenting the evidence. Then you can explain why you don’t think the evidence is convincing.
No it's up to YOU to produce the evidence that you think does exist and tell us why you think it is convincing.Joseph
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:47 AM
4
04
47
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, Endosymbioisis is the current "model" for how eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes. However there still isn't any way to scientifically test the premise. And that means there isn't any evidence that such a thing can occur. BTW the "evidence" for endosymbioisis ammounts to "It looks like endosymbiosis to me because those mito/ chloro look like they could have been bacyeria at one point in time" IOW Elizabeth you are just gullible as heck and you don't understand why I am not.Joseph
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:44 AM
4
04
44
AM
PDT
You are blurring the border between what is really testable about the TOE, i.e. microevolution (or adaptation), and the ungrounded extrapolation of microevolution to macroevolution (emergence of new phyla, which has never been observed). It did seem plausible at the times of Darwin. Now it is no longer due to tremendous advances of biochemistry and information theory over the past 150 years.
No, I am not blurring any borders. What I think you are doing is putting artifical boundaries round the concept of "testable". Obviously we cannot observe macroevolution taking place. Nor can we observe Big Bang taking place. What we can do, however, is to derive testable hypotheses from explanatory theories, and test those: "if this theory is true, then we should observe that" - and then you go out to see whether "that" is in fact observed. But there is another problem. Different people seem to have different definitions of "macro-evolution". Some people seem to think that longitudinal evolution that results in change more than some degree is "macro-evolution"; some think that speciation is "macro-evolution". You seem to think it's the emergence of phyla. Why phyla? What's special about phyla that you think is more "macro" than any other branching? And why do you think it poses a particular problem for evolutionary theory? Far from the !"tremendous advances of biochemistry and information theory over the past 150 years" rendering evolutionary theory "implausible" it seems to me that those advances enable us to model evolutionary process with astonishing predictive power!Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:43 AM
4
04
43
AM
PDT
There you go again, Joseph, with your "there isn't any evidence..." :) The origin of eukaryotes is indeed interesting, and the evidence (that stuff you say doesn't exist) that eukaryotes didn't exactly "evolve from" prokaryotes, but resulted from a kind of merger between proto-eukaryotic cells and prokaryotes. You might be interested in this very clearly written paper by Carl Woese: http://www.pnas.org/content/99/13/8742.full in which he cites the evidence for current models.Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:35 AM
4
04
35
AM
PDT
38.2.1.1.2 Petrushka "This “There isn’t any evidence” line is getting pretty stale." There would be no need to repeat it over and over again, if there were willingness to accept the obvious: there is evidence only for microevolution (adaptations roughly within the existing species). I'll bold it for you once again :) There is no evidence whatsoever that complex multipart systems with controlled information flow critical to proper functioning of the system as a whole, can emerge spontaneously without a designer.Eugene S
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:34 AM
4
04
34
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, You are blurring the border between what is really testable about the TOE, i.e. microevolution (or adaptation), and the ungrounded extrapolation of microevolution to macroevolution (emergence of new phyla, which has never been observed). It did seem plausible at the times of Darwin. Now it is no longer due to tremendous advances of biochemistry and information theory over the past 150 years.Eugene S
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:28 AM
4
04
28
AM
PDT
This "There isn't any evidence" line is getting pretty stale. How about you demonstrate your knowledge of this issue by presenting the evidence. Then you can explain why you don't think the evidence is convincing.Petrushka
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:23 AM
4
04
23
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, There isn't any evidence that prokaryotes can evolve into something other than prokaryotes. So what is this alleged evidence tat supports the theory of evolution? What are these alleged testable hypotheses?Joseph
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
04:17 AM
4
04
17
AM
PDT
The TOE does not require "a priori commitments". It is not blind faith. It is supported by evidence. It is a theory that generates testable hypotheses that are tested against data. It is a huge theory, with many parts that can be, and are, individually tested, and it is constantly subject to updating and refining. I have no idea why there is so much contention about it. I can only think that it is a threat to some people's worldviews, just as geology also is contentious because it threatens some worldviews. It's certainly not for want of evidential support.Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
03:40 AM
3
03
40
AM
PDT
PNG, I understand your point. However ID is not claiming it can prove with a virtual certainty that God exists. ID is about inferring the design cause based on probabilities (btw, irrespective of the designer). I interpret ID as a sort of "litmus test" for design, but then again one might say, I choose not to believe it and I put my trust in something below the plausibility bound. This is in fact what atheists are constantly doing: they are fabricating all sorts of "Mt Improbable" excuses not to see the obvious. Francis Bacon said: "A little science estranges a man from God; a lot of science brings him back." But I don't think that on the last day people will be judged based on their education. IOW, I don't think that science interferes with our free will.Eugene S
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
03:20 AM
3
03
20
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, Why then is the amount of contention around the theory of relativity for example, or the theory of elasticity nowhere near to that around the theory of evolution? It is obvious to me that this is because the case of evolution does have a lot to do with peoples' world views. Atheists for some strange reason do not want to recognise it pretending they are just scientists. TOE is a form of religion that requires a priori commitments. It is a blind faith because it is not supported by evidence. It is claiming that it is science, well in this case scientific evidence is necessary to support it. There is no evidence that would be enough to legitimately extrapolate microevolutionary effects to the whole biosphere.Eugene S
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
02:53 AM
2
02
53
AM
PDT
Suggesting, perhaps, that the reason people are persuaded by the theory of evolution has nothing to do with their "worldview"?Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
02:29 AM
2
02
29
AM
PDT
By the way, I intentionally posted my two comments on this thread as separate to the ongoing conversation between Timaeus, Stephen, and others. It is not my intent to intrude on those conversations, I just wanted to remark on the parallels I find rather obvious.Upright BiPed
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
12:29 AM
12
12
29
AM
PDT
OK, perhaps you might like to look at this piece: http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2010/02/search-scriptures.html You seem to support the argument
...that, since the traditional interpretation of the Bible or traditional theology is sound, the currently accepted science must be a misinterpretation of nature, and scientists should go back to the drawing board, doing new experiments to get better data, or interpreting the same data differently, in order to make the truth of science conform to the known truth of the Bible.
This seems to be precisely Todd's position, as articulated in the above post. How do you think his position differs from yours?Elizabeth Liddle
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
12:16 AM
12
12
16
AM
PDT
#37
I haven’t seen that done yet. I suspect that it can’t be done – my reason for that suspicion is basically theological.
It is becoming more and more difficult to find a reliable distinction between the contributions on this blog from materialists, and those from the defenders of Biologos. They come here effervescing over the same "mountain of evidence" which has always been 1) a misrepresentation and a strawman to ID, and 2) used as a shield against the material evidence that ID does present. In the end, they say the same things. Upright BiPed
October 19, 2011
October
10
Oct
19
19
2011
12:12 AM
12
12
12
AM
PDT
There are different levels or ways of being evident. For me design in the universe in general has always seemed evident at an intuitive level. However, some people don't seem to have that intuition. I'm don't know how to bring them to it. I suspect that that is the Holy Spirit's job (one of them, anyway.) But that isn't the same as saying that you can turn that intuition into what we mean by "science" at this point in history. I haven't seen that done yet. I suspect that it can't be done - my reason for that suspicion is basically theological. I don't think God is going to privilege people who happen to live in this age and have a lot of scientific education by making his existence a virtual certainty for them, unless they are willing to seek Him personally, but that I think is available to anyone in any age. If you find this inexcusable, I suppose you will have to call me a heretic, or whatever makes you feel like you have done your duty.PNG
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
11:31 PM
11
11
31
PM
PDT
Timaeus @32.1, thank you for your response. I do have a few thoughts that I will share with you tomorrow if you have time to read them.StephenB
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
09:24 PM
9
09
24
PM
PDT
If faith and reason are mutual partners in the acquisition of knowledge, then each must be given the opportunity to illuminate the other. Robert Jastrow once wrote this: "Oh yes, the metaphor there was that we know now that the universe had a beginning, and that all things that exist int his universe, life, planets, stars can be traced back to that beginning, and it's a curiously theological result to come out of science. The image that I had in my mind as I wrote about this was a group of scientists and astronomers who are climbing up a range of mountain peaks and they come to the highest peak and the very top, and there they meet a band of theologians who have been sitting for centuries waiting for them." Some on this thread are suggesting, perhaps unwittingly, that science should do all the teaching and that theology should do all the learning. This is often the case, but it is more often not the case. The reason for that is that scientific findings change, but theological truths never change. Indeed, there are some Biblical truths that do not need interpreting because their meaning cannot be misunderstood, such as the idea that God's handiwork is evident in nature. Christian Darwinists refuse to accept this truth. Indeed, they militate against it by saying, in the name of Darwinist ideology, that detectable design is an illusion. This is understandable for an atheist who doesn't claim to believe in the Bible, but it is inexcusable for a Christian.StephenB
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
09:17 PM
9
09
17
PM
PDT
#34 "...who would just like the whole thing to go away"Upright BiPed
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
06:23 PM
6
06
23
PM
PDT
PNG: I remember Peter, Paul and Mary well, so we seem to be of about the same vintage. But do you remember the Lettermen? To answer your question about why Biologos is so often bashed by ID people: 1. Biologos has spent an inordinate amount of time bashing ID people, and unkindness begets unkindness. Literally dozens of columns, many with insulting titles or prefaces, have appeared on Biologos targeting Behe, Meyer, Dembski, and ID in general. Biologos's obsession with bashing ID is equal to, or greater than, its obsession with refuting YEC. 2. Biologos has frequently misrepresented ID. Among the many misrepresentations promoted by Biologos is the charge that ID requires miraculous interventions; it doesn't. When ID people (many of them) have written in to Biologos to try to correct the misrepresentations, they have generally got one of two reactions: (1) stony silence, since most of the Biologos columnists rarely or never engage with commenters, especially critical commenters; (2) prickly defensiveness and a stubborn sticking to the misrepresentation. There is no dialogue; there is no openness to correction. Biologos has its straw man picture of ID firmly ensconced in its mind, and won't budge. 3. It is not just the columnists on Biologos that are the problem, it is several of the groupies who post comments there. They repeat the misinformation provided by the columnists, and are often condescending, sarcastic, or personally insulting to ID, YEC, and OEC people who post there. The management clamps down on any rudeness coming from ID and YEC people, but lets rudeness toward ID and YEC people ride. Many ID people have been suspended for very dubious offenses, but not a single ID-basher or YEC-basher among the commenters has ever been suspended (at least, for comments made against ID or YEC), even when guilty of direct insults. Generally speaking, double standards are odious and those who enforce double standards are perceived as hypocritical. 4. The theological and historical material presented on Biologos is badly biased and filled with scholarly errors. A recent discussion of C. S. Lewis's thoughts on evolution by a professor at a liberal seminary (liberal on evolution, anyway) was based on gross proof-texting and seriously misrepresented Lewis's thought in the interest of the columnist's TE agenda. And the scientist-columnists, when they make statements about Christian tradition, generally show gross ignorance of the primary sources (Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Aquinas, etc.) and of the standard academic secondary sources (such as would be studied at Harvard, Cambridge, Yale, etc.), and rely almost wholly on secondary sources written by liberal evangelical scholars who agree with them. The recommended theology is almost always post-Enlightenment and modern; there is very little classical Reformation Protestantism, or classical Medieval or Patristic Christianity. Indeed, even some of the commenters on Biologos who are very sympathetic to TE have noticed this, and often the TE commenters (especially the British ones) are more informed theologically, and more historically orthodox in their Protestantism, than the columnists. 5. The biological science presented on Biologos is largely classical neo-Darwinism (Modern Synthesis). There hasn't yet been a column there on the serious theoretical criticisms of the modern synthesis which are coming from a large number of cutting-edge evolutionary biologists. The columnists don't discuss Shapiro or the Altenberg group, for example, and don't appear even to have read their writings. Thus, the evolutionary theory on Biologos is seriously dated. Here, by contrast, you see columns on the latest ideas of Shapiro, the Altenberg people, Koonin, and many others. In other words, here we discuss the evolutionary biology of the 21st century, rather than preach the evolutionary biology of Ernst Mayr and Theodosius Dobhzhansky, both of whom have been dead for some time. Biologos is a very poor site for information on the latest developments in evolutionary theory; yet it has the conceit that it is up to date. 6. Discussions of the history and philosophy of science on Biologos are generally absent, and in the rare case where they occur, they are astoundingly uninformed and naive, as Gregory will tell you. There is simply no one there well versed in either of these fields. How any organization that claims to be able to harmonize science and theology can operate in a knowledge vacuum regarding these areas is beyond me. In the ID camp, by contrast, we have people like Meyer and Nelson who have Ph.D.s in the philosophy of science, Flannery who is an expert on Darwin and Wallace, and others. And in heavy philosophical questions directly related to theology, Biologos has no experts at all, whereas we have Vincent Torley and others. This is why the discussions by the Biologos columnists of omnipotence, providence, indeterminacy and freedom, chance and necessity, etc. are so laughably amateurish. You can't take a moonlighting physicist or a retired zoologist and expect him to discourse on these matters with competence. 7. The leaders at Biologos, Falk and Giberson (the latter now gone), have tended to write with a condescending tone toward ID people, and have tended to lecture ID people sanctimoniously on what "good science" is; yet neither Falk nor Giberson appear to have produced any peer-reviewed scientific articles in decades, and whatever they did produce in their youth seems to be unlocatable on the Web; whereas some of the people they criticize (like Behe and Sternberg) have been or are very prolific. (I believe that Behe has more peer-reviewed scientific articles than Falk, Venema, Giberson and Applegate combined, but I'm willing to retract that if anyone can come up with verifiable figures that contradict it.) This condescension of the scientifically unproductive to the scientifically productive is in my view deeply offensive. Are you familiar with the term "chutzpah"? What I've given is merely an introductory list of the offenses of Biologos. There are also a number of discreditable behind-the-scenes machinations of Biologos people which it would not be appropriate to discuss in public, as they cannot be documented, but which have generated deep distrust and dislike from the ID camp. However, this tip of the iceberg ought to be enough to indicate to you some of the causes of the hostility that people at UD, and from the ID camp generally, have toward Biologos. T.Timaeus
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
05:12 PM
5
05
12
PM
PDT
I got quite busy for a couple of weeks. I'll go back and take a look.rhampton7
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
04:51 PM
4
04
51
PM
PDT
rhampton7, I wondered if you had died. Why did you bail out on the Sept. 12 thread (regarding the $1,000 prize)? Did you not see the last replies of the Catholic philosopher Vincent Torley and of myself? If you didn't, you are welcome to go back there and post again. T.Timaeus
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
03:29 PM
3
03
29
PM
PDT
StephenB: As you know from our past interactions, I am in complete agreement with you about the intellectual incoherence of the Christian Darwinism espoused by a good number of TEs. I thought that your summary for Ted of three positions on creation, design, chance, and evolution was good. Nonetheless, I would defend Ted for not getting into that discussion here. As Ted sees it, this thread is about Caroline Crocker's charge that the ASA seems to be wandering from Christian orthodoxy into a position where it modifies Christian theology and ethics in accord with the latest findings of science. Ted has chosen to address that issue only, and not to discuss the general question of evolution and creation. Thus, he chose to focus on the question how the Bible is to be interpreted. And his argument, I take it, is something like this: The Bible is not always easy to interpret. On a number of questions to which we would like a direct answer, it is either silent or ambiguous, allowing of multiple interpretations. Where this is the case, is it necessarily "liberal" or "heretical" or "unorthodox" to take a line of interpretation which, though yet unexplored by the Christian tradition, seems to be at least a possible understanding of the words as given? Are *all* new readings of Biblical texts forbidden? Are we allowed to believe only those interpretations which have been sanctioned by time, i.e., the Roman interpretation, the Reformed interpretation, the American fundamentalist interpretation? Or are we allowed to consider new possibilities? Is it faithless for Christians to contemplate the possibility that we are only just now beginning to see the fuller meaning of some parts of the Bible? In past ages, some theologians argued that the earth must be immobile because certain verses in the Bible seemed to say or imply that. The best science of the 17th century, however, seemed to indicate that the earth was mobile, and that the sun, not the earth, was the center of the planetary system. Eventually, all Christians came to reinterpret those verses of the Bible that seemed to indicate a stationary earth, and you presumably do not have a problem with that reinterpretation. Yet you have to admit that the reinterpretation was prompted by a felt need to harmonize the Bible with the findings of natural science. Are you saying that it is wicked or heretical for Christians to desire such a harmony between the different sources of knowledge, revelation and reason? The TEs are saying: why couldn't this be happening today, with evolutionary theory? Just at it was possible to interpret the Bible on the earth's mobility differently without "selling out," so perhaps it is possible to interpret the Bible differently regarding fixity of kinds, or the age of the earth, without "selling out." And in principle I have nothing against this general *form* of argument. My problem is with the details, the particular things that TEs try to squeeze out of the Bible (and out of the Christian tradition); they often seem to be cherry-picking verses and passages, with little respect for the context. It is one thing to argue, for example, that Genesis need not be interpreted as teaching six twenty-four hour days of creation; it is another thing to read Genesis 1 in a way that denies that God is a designer. A non-literal understanding of the "days" can be defended quite comfortably from the text, whereas the denial that God designed the world, including man, and intended the arrangement of its elements, including the ranking position of man, flatly contradicts the plain sense of the text. Further, I don't think the former view is dangerous to traditional Christian faith -- the Creeds, etc. -- whereas I think the latter view undermines the traditional doctrine of Creation, which is not only found in the Creeds but is also central to Christian thought in many ways. Nothing important for faith hinges on how long it took God to effect the Creation; but that the world and man were designed by God is absolutely central to any coherent formulation of Christian faith. This is where we could all use some more clarification from Caroline and from people who agree with her. What exactly are the criteria by which "Biblical truth" is determined? How does Caroline, or anyone else, arrive at the Biblical teaching on a subject? I think that Caroline is quite right to suggest that some of the interpretations of the Bible held by ASA members are in fact incompatible with the Biblical text, but this needs to be shown in detail. Your own position in this thread is a little unclear, Stephen. I don't mean your position on evolution and Darwin and design -- that is crystal clear. But you are a Catholic. Catholics don't usually place emphasis on the Bible in the way that YEC and OEC people do, yet you appear, in your remarks to Ted, almost as if you are defending traditional Christianity by defending "sola Scriptura." But sola Scriptura is not a Catholic position, it's a Protestant one. If Caroline Crocker is a Protestant (as I would guess she is, as I know of no Catholic ASA members), it makes sense that she would cast orthodox or correct Christian belief in purely or heavily Biblical terms; but you belong to a Church which holds that not only Scripture but also Tradition is a source of doctrinal authority. So your rhetorical "Protestant turn" is confusing to me, and I suspect to Ted as well. For example, the Roman Church admits (in a doctrinal summary that is easily available online) that there may well be much that is figurative in the Garden story; but most YECs and many OECs will fight tooth and nail to defend the literal details of that story. I don't know where Caroline Crocker stands on literal talking serpents, but many of the people who criticize the ASA certainly think that the Garden story is very close to a photographic, eyewitness account of past events. Do you believe that? Do you believe, also, that the earth was created in six twenty-four hour days? And that on the first day, light was created before the sun or stars? Do you believe that Genesis rules out *any* evolutionary account, even an account where God guides the process to produce the various "kinds"? I don't think you are this sort of literalist; yet some of your arguments sound as if you are. So maybe you could clarify for us. Are you still arguing from a traditional Catholic position, a position in which a degree of non-literalness regarding Genesis is allowed? Or have you gone over to a more Protestant, or more precisely, more literalist, view of Biblical interpretation? If so, what brought about the change? I myself would argue that the main Christian doctrines are found in the Creeds, and that the Creed-makers were far less concerned about defending Genesis literalism than many modern Christian conservatives seem to be. Thus, I have no problem with TEs merely on the grounds that they don't take this or that narrative statement in Genesis literally. My problem with the TEs is that their position on the meaning of Genesis is not first and foremost a principled one; it is driven by a need to vindicate Darwinian mechanisms in evolution, and any genuine interest in hearing what Genesis teaches for its own sake is very much secondary. In line with this motivation, the harmonizing exegesis of the Bible that is generally employed by them (Lamoureux would be one of the few exceptions to this charge) is of a proof-texting kind, and thus disreputable from a scholarly point of view. And so it is with Calvin, Augustine, Aquinas, etc. One can easily show that the TEs are cherry-picking from these authors, using out-of-context statements to misrepresent the thought of these authors as more modern and more Darwin-compatible than it actually is. It is this methodological dishonesty that must be rejected. If one honestly believes that the Bible and the Christian tradition can easily be re-read to harmonize with Darwin, one would not use such dishonest methods. So, given my suspicions of the motivations of some of the TEs, I am greatly sympathetic with Caroline Crocker, but I agree with Ted that she has not dealt with the hermeneutical problem. Of course, that was not the point of her post, and I don't fault her for that in this context; but if she is to make her argument stick, sooner or later she and those who agree with her are going to have to make the case, within the ASA, that the Biblical hermeneutics of the "liberals" are unacceptable. How such a debate can take place within the ASA, I do not know, as most ASA members are scientists with little or no training in Biblical scholarship or Christian theology, who rely much on secondhand opinion for their notions of what the Bible and what the tradition teaches. But given the claims that both the "liberal" and the "conservative" sides within the ASA are making, the hermeneutical question cannot be set aside any longer. Either it will be dealt with in a way that is satisfactory to the majority of the members, or it will not, in which case the ASA will split, with the OEC and ID members leaving to form their own organization, as the YEC members did years ago. Stephen, I don't have time for any more long posts on this subject. If you wish to give answers to my questions here, clarifying your position, I will read them, and I may respond to them briefly as well. But this is all I can do for you, in the absence of Ted Davis. I hope my discussion has been helpful. T.Timaeus
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
03:13 PM
3
03
13
PM
PDT
I certainly hope so.rhampton7
October 18, 2011
October
10
Oct
18
18
2011
01:00 PM
1
01
00
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 6

Leave a Reply