Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has the American Scientific Affiliation Forgotten Their Stated Identity?

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According to Dr. Katharine Hayhoe, a plenary session speaker at the July 2011 American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) annual meeting, anthropogenic climate change is a scientific fact and the reason that many Evangelical Christians do not believe it is that the “science is complex and they cannot see it happening in their own backyards.” In her opinion, Christian groups are exacerbating the problem by “lying and spreading false information” about global warming, even though “98% of scientists agree that it is settled science.” She said that this is an example of where science and faith are in conflict (?) and we need to educate our churches about the issue so that they understand that questioning anthropogenic global climate change is anti-science. Of course, it seems to me, that if they are willfully lying about the issue, questioning must also be anti-Christian.

Now, hear me accurately. I am not saying that anthropogenic climate change is or is not true—I am not a climate scientist. And I do agree with Dr. Hayhoe that we should be responsible in how we use the Earth’s resources and mindful of those who are victims of natural disaster. I have implemented her only suggestion for remediation by using Compact Fluorescent Light bulbs and have even gone one better—I walk to the grocery store. But seriously, I do not consider it to be anti-science or unChristian to be intrigued that Dr. Ivar Giaever, Nobel prize winning physicist, and Dr. Harold Lewis, physics professor emeritus from University of California, Santa Barbara resigned their memberships at the American Physical Society (APS) over the APS’s refusal to consider all the scientific evidence surrounding this issue. I believe that evidence should be heard and considered and that those who do not agree with the politically correct consensus should not be labeled as uneducated or unChristian. Naturally, after a talk like this, those who had questions about the veracity of manmade global climate change or the cost/benefit ratio of governmental policies on controlling carbon dioxide emissions did not feel free to ask questions.

As a current ASA member, I was in attendance at the ASA meeting entitled, Science-Faith Synergy: Glorifying God and Serving Humanity. The result is that I have become very concerned about this organization. It appears that the ASA has forgotten who they are supposed to be: “a fellowship of men and women of science and disciplines that can relate to science who share a common fidelity to the Word of God and a commitment to integrity in the practice of science.” Instead, the meeting was explicitly slanted towards promotion of consensus science, theistic evolution (TE) and what appeared to be a very watered down version of Christianity. ASA says that they have “no official position on evolution” and are a Christian organization that “accept the divine inspiration, trustworthiness and authority of the Bible in matters of faith and conduct,” but the content of several of the talks and the attitude of some of the speakers at the conference failed to embrace this commitment. The below paragraph was taken from the ASA website:

As an organization, the ASA does not take a position when there is honest disagreement between Christians on an issue. We are committed to providing an open forum where [scientific] controversies can be discussed without fear of unjust condemnation. Legitimate differences of opinion among Christians who have studied both the Bible and science are freely expressed within the Affiliation in a context of Christian love and concern for truth.

Although this statement projects the appearance of an environment where integrity in science and scientists who want to discuss their thoughts and follow the evidence where it leads could thrive, this is far from accurate. The purported openness to discussion of scientific controversies expressed on the ASA website is clearly disingenuous.

In fact, the organization appears to have strayed far from both their commitment to integrity in science (telling the whole story) and their Christian identity and is now ostracizing both scientists who question consensus science and those who are self-identified evangelical Christians. As a result, science-based reservations about evolution, global warming, and other controversial topics were not openly discussed. One scientist, who believes that Intelligent Design (ID) theory has merit from a scientific viewpoint, identified himself to me with the words, “feels like hostile territory here.” Speakers who made lock-step derogatory remarks about “conservative Christians,” “creationists,” and “ID people” doubtless fueled this perceived hostility.

Of the presenters I heard, Dr. Mark Winslow of Southern Nazarene University in Oklahoma was particularly offensive, labeling anyone who does not accept all aspects of evolutionary theory as “scientifically and theologically illiterate.” His paper was on how 15 Christian students moved from an “immature Young Earth perspective” with “little tolerance for ambiguity” to an “adult faith” that can “accommodate degrees of dissonance” after accepting the “authority” of the “trained evolutionist” professor. Take home message: If one questions aspects of evolution, one is an immature Christian. Those who are faced with educating recalcitrant churches full of Darwin-doubters were counseled to show patience until the creationists come to understand that the scientific evidence should be more important than the Bible in their formation of a worldview. I hope he did not mean that!

Despite the fact that the ASA conference brochure says presenters should maintain a “humble and loving attitude towards individuals who have a different opinion,” a moderator in the session then repeated Dr. Winslow’s slur about illiteracy as if it were a joke, instead of deeply offensive to those who have science-based reservations about the merits of some aspects of evolutionary theory.

Until this ASA meeting I did not really think that the debate about evolution was terribly relevant to Christian faith and, as a former research scientist, I knew that doubting the evolutionary dogma does not affect my ability to “do” science. Personally, I “believed in” evolution for twenty years after I made my decision to profess faith in Christ. It was not my faith that caused me to question aspects of evolution or to consider that there is merit to ID. Rather, it was the science, the cell biology.

I am currently a self-confessed evolutionary agnostic—I see that there is intriguing scientific evidence for some aspects of evolution, but also acknowledge that there are holes in that evidence. For example, my knowledge of the cell shows me that the stated mechanism whereby macroevolution is said to proceed does not work. I see logic in the view of ID proponents, but also realize that ID is a theory in process. I find TE both academically and theologically frustrating. Academically, I am unwilling to commit to having the faith necessary to believe that the whole of evolutionary theory will be proven right eventually. Theologically, I am confused about the presupposition that, even though God created the world, His action must by definition be completely undetectable. I thought that I would find many like-minded people at a conference for Christians in science. After all, scientists are known for having questioning minds and Christians value humility, so Christian scientists should be very willing to consider that their scientific or theological understanding is probably incomplete.

But, what I learned at the ASA conference was that reason the debate over evolution matters is that it is a symptom of a much more serious disease: the elevation of the authority of science and the scientific community above the claims and values of the Bible and Christianity. Scientism is a belief system where science becomes the preeminent way to ascertain all truth, making scientists—well, very important people. Symptoms of scientism much in evidence at the ASA conference were the repeated assertions that “all real scientists think…” and the communicated attitude that we need to accept the consensus of the scientific community and, if necessary, change our interpretation of the Bible to fit with the science.

Dr. Francis Collins, Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), exemplifies this type of thinking when he says, “And people are beginning to argue in very irrational ways based on a lack of understanding what the science says. If we could back off from all of the, sort of, hard edged rhetoric and really say, okay, what is science teaching us, I suspect that the moral dilemmas [involved with the use of embryonic stem cells for research purposes] are not nearly as rough as people think they are.” The idea that science should inform our interpretation of Scripture contains some truth and some untruth (e.g. science being able to teach us morality), as do most harmful ideas. Unfortunately, at much of the ASA meeting, it was the first step on a slippery slope to so much more.

Dr. Gareth Jones gave another of the plenary session lectures. During the first part of the talk on neuroscience and reproduction, he set up a hypothetical situation wherein a couple already have a child with a genetic disease, have a ¼ chance of their next child also having the disease, do not feel that they could cope with the stress and work of another sick child, but would like more children. Dr. Jones outlined that this couple has four options.
1) Decide not to have more children,
2) Take the risk and have a child,
3) Conceive a child, have pre-birth testing, and abort if the child has the disease, and
4) Donate eggs and sperm for in vitro fertilization and genetic testing,
with the intention of not implanting any defective embryo. Dr. Jones stated that Options 1, 2 and 4 are the only ones that would be acceptable for a Christian, making it appear as if he is assuming that human life does not begin at conception. A questioner who asked about a 5th option (birth followed by adoption) was shot down with the reply that that this would still allow a “defective” person to be born and that “freely chosen ignorance is not a virtue.”

Dr. Francis Collins, who is a self-proclaimed evangelical Christian and long time member of the ASA, also seems unclear about the ethics of using human embryos for research. He says that “human embryos deserve moral status” but that it may be more ethical to use the 400,000 embryos that are currently frozen for “breathtakingly” beneficial research than to “discard them.” If the leading scientist in our country believes this, why then should an ASA plenary session speaker commit to the Biblical view that human life from conception onwards is sacred, as is espoused in Ps 139:13? One may argue that the ASA is a place where all views can be discussed “without fear of unjust condemnation,” but this should surely be held in tension with their self-proclaimed acceptance of Biblical authority.

The ASA bias towards a liberal form of Christianity and elevating science above Scripture continued. During parallel session talks on the ethics of neuroscience and reproduction by a number of speakers, attendees at the ASA meeting were informed that science shows that sexuality is fluid and so it might be unethical to offer help to those wanting to change their sexual orientation (or identity). After all, the scientific consensus is that one does not choose to be homosexual, transgendered, or even a pedophile. Dr. Heather Looy, a psychologist from King’s University College, was concerned that we be compassionate and not keep homosexual people from enjoying a full sexual experience. A lovely person herself, who practices what she preaches, she stressed that we should not judge those different from ourselves. Dr. William Struthers from Wheaton acknowledged that the traditional family unit with a father and a mother is best for children, but also explained that gender is a spectrum and that Christians should hold science and Scripture in tension, realizing that God is love incarnate.

Of course, Christians should be aware that we are all sinners saved by grace and this should make us as compassionate to those caught in sexual sin as we would want them to be towards us in our sin. In addition, we all have character traits that predispose us to be more tempted by certain sins than we are by others. You may be tempted to sleep with someone of the same gender; I would be more tempted by a juicy piece of gossip. Giving in is sin, no matter the temptation. However, the traditional understanding of the Biblical teaching is that that the Lord gave us rules for our benefit and safety, not because He wants to be a spoilsport, and that obedience, no matter how difficult, is always the best way to attain fullness of joy. The current politically-correct scientific consensus does not negate this. For Christians science does not trump the Bible.

Finally, there were several presentations on why science must be methodologically naturalistic and why we should help our churches to accept that evolution is a fact. The final session was offered by Ruth Bancewicz from the Faraday Institute at Cambridge University on a course called Test of Faith. The purpose of Test of Faith, which is now travelling the country giving presentations at places like Gordon College, MIT, Wheaton, Fairfax Community Church, Bethel University, Point Loma Nazarene, and California Institute of Technology sounds wonderful and very in keeping with both good science and Christianity. It is to show how science is compatible with faith by highlighting various believing scientists. But, the producers have a self-admitted bias towards theistic evolution, as do the majority of the scientists (Francis Collins, Jennifer Wiseman, and John Polkinghorne), and so only represent a part of the entire community of Christians in science. Certainly, although there is a lot of recommended reading on their website, I could find no mention of Stephen Meyers’ Signature in the Cell or Michael Behe’s The Edge of Evolution. Test of Faith has been working with Youth for Christ, ASA, and the Bible Society and is well-funded by the Templeton Foundation.

So, what is the worry? The entire picture. ASA and BioLogos, the organization started by Dr. Francis Collins, and Test of Faith, backed by Templeton Foundation money, working together to convert the Christian world to a belief in evolution and, if the parts of the ASA meeting that I witnessed were anything to go by, a very watered down version of Christianity. These groups are also working with InterVarsity Fellowship, Youth for Christ, and the Bible Society. They are targeting universities, seminaries, and churches with their message that belief in evolution is compatible with faith and that all people of intelligence should embrace evolutionary theory as fact. Quite apart from the scientific problems with this view, some people are questioning whether the faith that is being espoused is still orthodox Christianity. The fruit of the ASA meeting, which included arguing based on ad hominem attacks, advocating a type of Scientism, equivocating about the sanctity of life, and disregarding Biblical standards for sexuality, suggests that it is not. ASA has forgotten its stated identity. ASA has lost its way.

Personally, I hope that, with the help and support of those of us who disagree with the turn they have taken, the ASA will get back on track. I’ll be looking forward to next year’s meeting in San Diego! Meanwhile, why not check out a scientific association that really does encourage the open discussion of controversial subjects in a non-hostile environment? American Institute for Technology and Science Education (AITSE) is such a place. Our vision is to promote good science, based on impartial evaluation of evidence, not mere consensus. Our mission is ”…to improve science education and encourage scientific integrity” and “offer clear, reliable and balanced education with the goal of liberating science and technology from ideology, politics and the restrictions of consensus…”

Dr. Caroline Crocker, who holds an MSc in medical microbiology and a PhD in immunopharmacology, is President of AITSE. If you enjoyed this article, please “like” AITSE on Facebook, follow Caroline on Twitter, and sign up for AITSE’s monthly newsletter. If you would like to help AITSE with its work to restore integrity to science, please donate generously. Finally, if you are a scientist or physician of integrity, please consider applying to join AITSE’s scientific consortium. Together we can make a difference.

Comments
So, my question for you can be simplified in the following way: Which of the last two categories (Traditional Theistic Evolution or Contemporary Christian Darwinism) do you identify with and, if it is Traditional Theistic evolution, why do you not repudiate Christian Darwinism? More concise and focused than this I cannot be.StephenB
October 17, 2011
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"You’re asking me to do a lot here, by way of responding to a whole series of questions..." Maybe so. I think I can simplify matters a bit with following categorical description. CHRISTIAN DIRECT CREATION (Rational: compatible with Scripture and Intelligent Design) Adam and Eve are created in finished form, body and soul Created design is detectable. CHRISTIAN THEISTIC EVOLUTION (Rational: compatible with Intelligent Design) The bodies of Adam and Eve evolve from the bottom up, but their spiritual souls are implanted from the top down. Evolutionary design is detectable. Evolution is designed with an end in mind. The arrival of man was inevitable. CHRISTIAN DARWINISM (Irrational: Incompatible with Intelligent Design and Scripture) Both body and soul evolve from the bottom up, meaning that spiritual, immaterial minds evolve from matter. (This is impossible because spirit is unchangeable while matter is always changing. That which is always changing cannot become unchangeable). Evolutionary design in not detectable. Evolution does not know where it is going. The finished product (man) was an accident and could have been different.StephenB
October 17, 2011
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Stephen, You're asking me to do a lot here, by way of responding to a whole series of questions, some of which I believe I did in fact address at other times on this site. I won't reply to most of your questions in detail here; it would take me many hours to delineate my views in a way that would satisfy me for accuracy and nuance you for specificity. Your request is appropriate, but I am not at the same point in life as you; I have a day job and family concerns, neither of which I can ignore, as much as I might want to devote many more hours to this. Nevertheless, I will offer an answer to the same question you have now answered. Fair is fair. Here is what you say: "If we accept the findings of physical anthropology and molecular biology, the first “human” species appeared in Africa about 150,000 years ago. According to that scenario, it was the gradual increase in brain size that caused the transition from sub-human species to homo sapiens. As the story goes, the human population was never smaller than 10,000 or some such number. I question this account for several reasons, but I do, nevertheless, think it can be reconciled with Genesis. According to the Bible, though, there was an original pair of humans. Thus, in order to reconcile Scripture with the scientific evidence presented by experts, we would have to assume that God, in some fashion, planted a spiritual soul into a pre-existing species, which was human in every other way except for the critical powers of intellect and will, and that He was, through that act, and in that sense, creating Adam and Eve." I appreciate your reply very much. We have a lot of common ground, Stephen, more than you may have realized. My sense is that you do not really accept the science as described in the first of these two paragraphs; that's fine, you need to say what you think. I don't take those conclusions as rock solid--in this as in many areas of science, things are likely to be different in 5 or 10 years, at least in some important details. However, I think it's very well established that genuinely human creatures have been here for at least many tens of thousands of years, far longer than the traditional few thousand years in Genesis. I believe that, if all of those creatures were biological descendants of Adam & Eve, then Adam & Eve could not have existed in a neolithic culture. Thus, it is hard for me to see how the couple presented in Genesis are actually the biological ancestors of all humans. So, how do I put this together? First, let me note our most important point of commonality: we both think that Adam & Eve are very important theologically, and we both think that science does not contradict this. We probably differ on what constitutes a satisfactory understanding of an "historical" Adam & Eve, but to be honest I am not certain that we differ even on that. What you say indicates to me that one does need to engage in some hermeneutical work to get to a workable solution: we entirely agree about that. What you have not said, however, I must still insist on saying: leaving "Darwinism" and design completely out of this, there is still a challenge from human antiquity. The genetics *sharpens* our picture of this; evidence for (IMO) common descent sharpens our picture of this. But, the picture is still there, and clearly enough to see the hermeneutical challenge. A large number of traditional Christians (I think you know this) would find your proffered solution (God implanting a soul into a creature that otherwise had evolved) completely unacceptable; in their view, you would have let science trump the Bible. You would have caved in unforgiveably to "Darwinism" for even considering such a thing. You have of course spoken favorably of the official Roman Catholic position on this; you are a Catholic, so this is not surprising. What might be surprising is the number of people I have met in the ASA who resonate with that view, or something close to it, including probably some whom you would otherwise think of as "Darwinists." What all such views have in common is the same uncertainty evident in your answer: *If* A is the case, *then* we would have to say B. There simply is no given answer to this question on the part of the "Christian Darwininist" for whom you have so much contempt. They don't know, either, Stephen, exactly how to put this picture together with full confidence. Nor do I. I don't think you can fairly expect more of them (or me) than you expect of yourself. More coming.Ted Davis
October 17, 2011
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As an amendment to [D] I would also ask if you repudiate the unplanned Darwinian model as proposed by Theistic Evolutionists, such as Ken Miller and Jerry Coyne, and the have-it-both-ways approach of Theistic Evolutionists such as Francis Collins.StephenB
October 17, 2011
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Ted, I have no opinion about whether the ASA is reluctant to accept ID papers because I have no experience with that organization. I do believe, though, based on numerous reports, that the Christian Darwinist culture is predominant, which would indicate that there are more members in that group who deny the teaching of the literal existence of Adam and Eve than those who accept it. For me, that point is more decisive than any impression I received from my spot check, which, as I stated, may or may not reflect the correct proportions. So, it is not necessary for you to spend a lot of time trying to convince me that my spot check may not reflect the correct proportions, if you get my drift. My abbreviated answer to your question would be this: If we accept the findings of physical anthropology and molecular biology, the first “human” species appeared in Africa about 150,000 years ago. According to that scenario, it was the gradual increase in brain size that caused the transition from sub-human species to homo sapiens. As the story goes, the human population was never smaller than 10,000 or some such number. I question this account for several reasons, but I do, nevertheless, think it can be reconciled with Genesis. According to the Bible, though, there was an original pair of humans. Thus, in order to reconcile Scripture with the scientific evidence presented by experts, we would have to assume that God, in some fashion, planted a spiritual soul into a pre-existing species, which was human in every other way except for the critical powers of intellect and will, and that He was, through that act, and in that sense, creating Adam and Eve. Meanwhile, my questions for you persist: [A] Do you believe in an historical Adam and Eve and that through one man sin was introduced into the world or do you not? [B] Do you accept as binding only those truths contained in the Nicene Creed, and consider everything written in the Bible unrelated to that creed up for grabs, such as the teaching on the detectable design in nature, including biological design? [C] We know that your scientific speculations cause you to question certain Biblical teachings. Are there any Biblical teachings that cause you to question your scientific speculations, or is it a one way street? [D] If, as you say, you believe that God planned or directed evolution, why do you not repudiate the unplanned undirected Darwinian evolutionary model as proposed by the majority of evolutionary biologists? [E] Are you trying to have it both ways? [F] If, indeed, you do disavow the model of unplanned evolutionary biologists, then why to you accept their claim that design is an illusion, which is a corollary of the Darwinian principle of unguided evolution? [G] Do you recognize the design inherent in the structure of a bird’s wings? [H] What do you have to say about the references of the early Church fathers concerning design in biology? Were they promoting a misguided theology because they were ignorant of what Darwin would later say? If so, what else did they get wrong?StephenB
October 17, 2011
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Ted, Thanks for your response. The current theory of evolution posits blind, undirected chemical processes- natural selection is blind/ purposelesss/ mindless and the mutations are all said to be undirected chemical processes. That is why I asked- IOW it isn't just a Dawkins thing. But anyway this is off-topic and I apologize- I also need to read more about the ASA....Joseph
October 17, 2011
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Joseph-- Richard Dawkins has never been one of our speakers, so I think the answer is NO. The adjectives "blind, undirected" are not likely to be used by most of our members, with regard to any natural phenomena, except in a very limited sense. For Christians (such as our members), nature is a *creation* that would not exist at all without divine intention. That limits the sense in which it would be appropriate to speak about "blind, undirected" processes of any sort, whether chemical, physical, or biological. Does it not? Now, for sure, a whole lot of our members probably like to think of a whole lot of natural processes as taking place without placing a mind into those processes, at the level of giving a scientific description. For example, did it rain yesterday b/c the particles of the air directed themselves to form storm clouds? Did it rain yesterday b/c God intended it to? Those are very different questions, I think you'll grant, and the scientific question doesn't introduce purpose. I suspect that everyone in the ID camp would think about those particles without bringing a purpose into the scientific description. Or, am I mistaken?Ted Davis
October 17, 2011
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Have there been any blind watchmaker papers at your meetings? That is papers that demonstrate the alleged powers of blind, undirected chemical processes?Joseph
October 17, 2011
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Hey Ted, Why can't it be that humans of today of evolved versions of the original Adam & Eve? IOW evolution happens but it has limits- just as YECs say.Joseph
October 17, 2011
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It is obvious that ID has more merit than the current theory of evolution which cannot produce a testable hypothesis nevermind positive evidence.Joseph
October 17, 2011
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William Dembski: "Walter Bradley contacted me in January or February of 2006, asking me to collect a CV and other supporting materials to propose me as fellow of the ASA. He didn’t spell out a strict deadline, so I sent the supporting materials in, as it turned out, two weeks late. Unfortunately, the deadline was strict and my nomination was put in cold storage — at least so I understood from Walter, who indicated that my nomination would be delayed a year. All the materials were in place to confirm my nomination — so Walter gave me to understand. And yet I was never ratified as a fellow, not the following year, not the three additional years that I still remained an ASA member." That was probably because in the summer of 2007 you published the private telephone numbers and email addresses of the entire Baylor Board of Regents on this blog. That would have been fresh in the minds of the ASA as they reviewed your nomination. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/apology-to-baylor-administration-and-regents/dmullenix
October 17, 2011
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The papers you put into your sample, Stephen, all came from our 2009 meeting at Baylor. Here is the program: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/meetings/baylor2009/Baylor_program.pdf I've made the point here that there is no bias against having pro-ID papers at our meetings, that if there are few or none it's b/c few or none were proposed by authors. Anyone who doubts that can take a look at the program and follow the evidence wherever it leads.Ted Davis
October 16, 2011
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I should illuminate this information for you, Stephen, where you wrote this: "In any case, I visited the ASA website yesterday and read parts of four definitive essays on Adam and Eve. Three of them deny their existence as our historical first parents. Of course, four examples do not make a trend, but I think the pattern of 75% against the truth Biblical revelation and 25% for the truth Biblical revelation is representative of the ASA culture." Let me guess--you took all four of those articles from the famous issue of Sept 2010--am I right? That is, this one: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2010/PSCF9-10dyn.html (I say "famous" b/c it sold out in advance, including an extra 1000 copies. That's small potatoes for many magazines, but almost 50% more than we normally print. We could have sold a whole lot more, if we'd anticipated it. Our bad. Hint: there is keen interest in this topic. It's about time someone talked about it. Just so we can interpret this data fairly, Stephen, we should note that two of the four papers were written by ASA members (Jack Collins and Denis Venema). The other two were written by non-members (Dan Harlow and John Schneider). So, of the ASA members in this little sample space (which is, as you say, rather small to generalize from) about half argued for an historical Adam. Incidentally, Stephen, if you would like to submit an article on this topic you certainly can. Just as you can join the ASA, if you'd like to increase the percentage of our members who would identify more with Jack than with Denis. If I'm not mistaken, our annual meeting in 2013 will be within a day's drive of your home--why not check us out?Ted Davis
October 16, 2011
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Steven, You missed my point *entirely*. You keep missing this point, which I've made before. I'll ask it just one more time. Let's say that evolution *never happened*. Adam and Eve were specially created, such that all human beings are their direct descendants. Did this take place in neolithic times, as Genesis has it? If so, what do you make of all those humans who predated the neolithic period? If not--if this special creation happened tens of thousands of years before the neolithic period, then what do you make of Genesis? Please, Stephen, please put "Darwinism" to one side, just for the sake of this example. My question is *not* about "Darwinism," not in any way. Nor is it about "evolution" of any kind. It's simply about the antiquity of humanity and the historicity of Adam & Eve.Ted Davis
October 16, 2011
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..which side of the debate you support.StephenB
October 16, 2011
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Ted, I am well aware of the difference between design-driven common descent and Darwinian-driven common descent and the fact that both paradigms have the potential to prompt questions about the existence of a historical Adam and Eve. I am, therefore, glad that you raised the issue so that we can put that misunderstanding to bed. The point of alluding to the Darwinian model is that the latter paradigm provides more motivation to dismiss Biblical teachings because it presumes to know the "how" of evolution and demystifies the “myth” of creation. A more important point, though, is that the Darwinian model rules out the principle of design whereas mainstream arguments for common descent do not. In any case, I visited the ASA website yesterday and read parts of four definitive essays on Adam and Eve. Three of them deny their existence as our historical first parents. Of course, four examples do not make a trend, but I think the pattern of 75% against the truth Biblical revelation and 25% for the truth Biblical revelation is representative of the ASA culture. So, I am not sure that the former world view is, as you claim, the minority opinion. Indeed, you seem to question (deny?) the historicity of Adam and Eve yourself, at least that is the way I interpret yourrecent response. What does that mean? If I read your right, your faith in speculative science has trumped your faith in no less than two essential and non-negotiable articles of the Christian faith, namely the design of life (Psalms) and the reality of our singular first parents (Genesis). Do you agree with St Paul’s teaching that “through one man sin entered the world?” Surely you can understand why asking me to read more books on anthropology or raising questions about my “analytical tools” will not suffice for an answer. Yes, of course the intellectual challenges are there, and that is precisely why we, as Christians, should allow our interpretation of Biblical teachings to tug away at our scientific speculations just as we allow our scientific speculations to tug away at our interpretation of Biblical teachings—except for those non-negotiable Biblical teachings that need no interpretation and, therefore, should not be compromised. If, in your judgment, only those truths contained in the Nicene Creed are binding and that everything written in the Bible unrelated to that creed is up for grabs, then feel free to disclose that information. Naturally, though, I would have one or two more questions. With respect to the science, let me summarize the two key points: [a] there is some evidence for common descent, but it is not by any means sufficient to close the case and [b] there is no evidence at all that Darwinistic processes could drive such a process. Put another way, universal common descent may or may not be true, but Darwinism is almost certainly not true. Yet, you seem to accept both arguments without question, which suggests that your faith in the claims of evolutionary biologists has trumped your faith in the aforementioned Biblical truths. It appears, then, that your scientific speculations cause you to question your Biblical theology but your Biblical theology does not cause you to question your scientific speculations. This is a very strange mix. On the one hand, you claim accept the proposition that God purposely designed evolution in such a way that the process would eventually produce man, although that design is, in your judgment, not detectable. On the other hand, you also seem to support the Darwinian model as set forth by most evolutionary biologists, which posits an unplanned outcome. If you support arguments for a planned outcome, why are you, as it seems, uncritical of the unplanned model of evolutionary biologists? Or, if you disavow the model of unplanned evolutionary biologists, then why to you accept their claim that design is an illusion, which is a corollary of the Darwinian principle of unguided evolution? Do you really want to say, in the name of Darwinian evolution, that you do not recognize the designed skeletal structure of a bird’s wings? What about the references of the early Church fathers concerning design in biology? Were they promoting a misguided theology because they were ignorant of what Darwin would later say? If so, what else did they get wrong? Do you repudiate Darwinian evolution, which is another name for undirected evolution, or are you trying to have it both ways. Design arguments do not challenge common descent; they only challenge Darwinian mechanisms as substitutes for design. Are you aware this fact? There is no doubt that people like Francis Collins have their feet planted firmly and schizophrenically in both camps (design and non-design) yet you speak of him with approval. Accordingly, there is no logical middle ground between a God-designed evolutionary model and the un-designed Darwinian model embraced by most evolutionary biologists. The latter has always been the alternative to the former. Make no mistake, I am not asking you to write ten paragraphs telling me something that I already know, while implying that I don’t know it, or to explain your perception of the history of the debate. I am, rather, asking you to tell me, explicitly and tersely, which side of the debate you areStephenB
October 16, 2011
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Was 'BioLogos' not first introduced by F. Collins as a term, rather than as a(n institutional) name? Going by the on-line version "The Language of God," it was first used on p. 197 (2007). It is in that book called a 'position,' a 'perspective' and an 'alternative' (i.e. to ID or YEC) and likened to 'theistic evolution.' That seems more to me like a 'term' than a 'name' (even if it is totally confused ideologically!). The institution/organization or 'name' called 'BioLogos Foundation' came later, did it not? What's the point anyway, Nick? Are you frustrated because 'intelligent design' is actually a pretty darn good (no, I am not an IDist) concept duo (despite how some folks abuse it) or because 'design' is a legitimate term in many scholarly fields, not including biology? If this discussion were *only* about 'biology' or the 'biosphere' then 'BioLogos' (capitals required) would be a suitable name for those many, many people who believe 'God/Allah/Yahweh' is/was Creator of Universe (including biosphere), thus allowing space for respectful and even fruitful dialogue btw science, philosophy and theology, would it not? When StephenB claims 'God did not hide God-self in biology,' that could just be taken to mean 'BioLogos,' could it not? Btw, what 'free country' are you talking about? This is a global (for those connected) internet discussion. I'm afraid you're thinking far too small if you mean only-USA.Gregory
October 16, 2011
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Gregory: Thank you for your kind words about my performance in the now-defunct ASA discussion forum, all those many months ago. In response to your comment about Dr. Crocker's experience at the ASA conference, I want to clarify my position. While I think it is wrong to demonize the ASA as such, I am in no way challenging Dr. Crocker's account of how *some* ASA members have treated ID supporters, OECs, and YECs. Many ASA TEs are particularly reactive against YEC, and think that they see connections between YEC and ID, and therefore take out their hostility against YEC on ID people as well, even though many ID people, such as Michael Behe, have no connection with YEC. I have heard many reports of this hostility, not only from the conference which Dr. Crocker references, but also from the "Dance of Faith and Science" conference which was held a while back. I have also seen this hostility for myself, in uncharitable remarks about creationists made on the old ASA list and by ASA members who post on Biologos. There is a certain constituency within the ASA (I don't say it is the majority of the members) which encourages or condones derisive remarks against "creationists" or anyone who appears to resemble them. While I think that many people who call themselves "creationists" are misguided in their literal understanding of certain parts of the Bible, I think they have the virtue of taking the Bible seriously, unlike so many modern clergymen and theologians and lay intellectuals, who do not seem to hesitate to "rewrite" the Bible and Christian theology in order to make them less offensive to "science" or to the allegedly firm results of historical-critical study of the Bible. What Dr. Crocker is expressing is the concern that within the ASA a certain looseness of commitment to the Bible and to classical Christian theology can be observed. When one remembers that some of the leading lights at Biologos are also active ASA members, her concern is not at all unfounded. Of course, Ted Davis is right to point out that the founding statements of the ASA remain as official policy, but Dr. Crocker is concerned less about the nominal beliefs of the organization and more about the attitudes which she finds among some of its members, attitudes which in her view are affecting the institution's behavior and hence its mission. This is not uncommon among Christian organizations of all types these days, i.e., that a traditional doctrine is affirmed on paper, whereas in practice many non-traditional beliefs are aired without much fear of admonishment for unorthodoxy, and many traditional beliefs are either ignored or openly criticized by members of the organization. Thus, the ASA is not unique in this respect. It is certainly reasonable to debate the meaning of Genesis, and a sincere Christian can legitimately argue that Genesis need not be taken as a photographic representation of the process by which the world was created, and that there are ways of putting together creation doctrine with an evolutionary process. Nonetheless, sneering at those who understand Genesis more literally is not a virtuous act for a Christian. Still worse, from a Christian point of view, is any attempt to shut down on legitimate questions raised by YEC, OEC and ID people about the danger that certain forms of evolutionary theory might pose for traditional understandings of God's providence, omnipotence, etc. Also, the traditional position of Adam in the Pauline understanding is not easy to square with the argument of many ASA biologists about the impossibility of a first human couple, and responses to those who hold the traditional view need to be respectful and theologically thoughtful -- but as you will know if you have read some of the Biologos discussions of Adam and Eve, this is not always the case. Thus, I see Dr. Crocker's article as a legitimate protest by one ASA member about the direction in which her organization seems to be moving. At the same time, I agree with Ted Davis that those members who agree with Dr. Crocker cannot simply sit back and complain about the organization. They must get involved and change it. They must get involved in the journal, as writers and assistant editors; they must get involved in planning the annual meetings, and in submitting papers to be read at the annual meetings; they must be on the executive council and on all the committees of the organization; and they must speak up when some members, in speech or in writing, treat other members as intellectual pariahs. If they do not do these things, if they merely complain without acting, the organization will indeed move in exactly the direction they are objecting to. This strikes me as an obvious principle which is not enough observed in any aspect of modern life. How many Americans regularly complain that their political culture is too polarized, that Democrats and Republicans interact combatively rather than constructively, that the system in Washington is broken, etc.? Yet how many of those same Americans are involved in building a constructive alternative, i.e., organizing a third political party which could be an alternative to the traditional two? How many of them are involved in producing magazines which transcend traditional left/right politics, and which publish articles which promote sensible, moderate policies, taking the best ideas from the left and from the right? Ultimately, in a democracy, people get the kind of government that they deserve. Democracy is not in itself a guarantee of fairness or equality; democracy is only a guarantee of the opportunity to fight for fairness and equality. If members of democratic organizations (whether those be whole nations, or groups of Christian scientists) take the fatalistic attitude that there is nothing that anyone can do, then of course nothing will ever change. I therefore applaud Dr. Crocker for her courage in speaking out, and I urge her to submit scientific articles -- whether critiques of Darwinian mechanisms, or arguments for intelligent design -- to the ASA journal. I also urge the many silent supporters of Dr. Crocker's views to get involved in their organization, make their views known, and try to steer the organization back to what they consider to be its proper course. I have heard that as many as a third of the ASA members are ID-sympathetic. If that is the case, then we should see a third of the executive and committee positions occupied by ID people, a third of the journal submissions sent in by ID people, and a third of the conference paper proposals submitted by ID people. If this is not happening, it is not the TE people who are to blame. T.Timaeus
October 16, 2011
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No, this is something new. The Salem Hypothesis was (originally) about engineers presenting themselves as scientists. This would be about IDists presenting themselves as engineers.Freelurker
October 16, 2011
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StephenB, There are many ASA members with views similar to yours--exactly how many we do not know, but we know from internal polls that the percentage is substantial. It's not a "small minority." However, as ID people leave (which they seem to be doing), apparently frustrated that they have been unable to persuade too many others of their views (see Nick's post above), their influence will *necessarily* diminish. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, not to put too fine a point on it. Your rhetoric (esp for someone who has never been a member and to the best of my knowledge has never attended a single ASA function) strikes me as something of a whine, frankly: let the ASA reform itself to agree with me, even though I'd never be part of it myself. That is how it comes across to me sometimes, StephenB. Well, if you want to reform something you do it from within. There are so many things here unrelated to "Darwinism" that we won't be able to unpack them adequately, even if I had months to blog--which I don't. I will simply say that within the ASA there are wide variations among our members on design, common descent, and the historicity of Adam & Eve. Even among the group you single out for attention, there are variations on design and Adam & Eve. Your analytical tools do not allow the possibility to see these, and you have no experiential basis whatsoever to draw any conclusions. The way in which you lump these together also fails to account for the fact that, even if no one had ever proposed the main idea of evolution--the common descent of humans and other organisms, leaving natural selection entirely out of this--even if no one had ever proposed this, I say, the question of the historicity of Adam & Eve would have to arise. Genesis presents them as a neolithic couple, with cities and agriculture already present. This puts them within the past roughly 8000 years, which is fully consistent with the Genesis chronologies, but then this leaves a whole group of apparently human individuals (who looked just like us and behaved just like us, and if it looks like a duck...) who preceded them by tens or perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years. I've mentioned this to you before, but I don't recall you noticing; you are too fixed on "Darwinism" and overlook things having nothing directly to do with common descent or natural selection. But, those challenges are there. Those who know the "science and religion" field, vis-a-vis those who focus on "Darwinism" and ID, realize that the landscape is quite a bit larger than what you are seeing. Many ASA people, including some in the group you single out, find ways to keep an historical Adam & Eve in this picture; a much smaller number think that is not possible. What seems very hard for me to understand (I do not speak for anyone else) has already been laid out briefly. The issue of Adam, Eve, and an historical fall is independent of "the creative power of natural selection." You "presume" this connection, as many in our culture do, but the challenge is there independently of anything Darwin ever said. Your presumption is simply flat wrong. Just as the YEC people think that OEC (a view held by many ID people) is "evolution" simply b/c it accepts an "old" earth and universe (a ludicrous view, but one that gets them a lot of support from their wide public following), you think that the historicity of Adam & Eve does not arise independently of "Darwinism" (i.e., common descent and natural selection). It does. Please recognize this and incorporate it into your thinking. Put "Darwinism" aside and review some anthropological evidence. I will sign off this thread now for awhile, perhaps entirely.Ted Davis
October 16, 2011
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Well said, T. I am glad you've spoken of 'good people within its ranks.' If you are the same person who visited ASA-List (when it was still open to the public) a couple of years back and 'debated' with just about the whole list, myself included, you did so imo honourably and effectively, even if Dr. Randy Isaac, then head of ASA, and others were not ultimately persuaded to ‘accept ID’. If I recall, this dialogue was indeed facilitated through Dr. Davis. The desire of certain ID journalist/reporters to continue to vilify ASA is baffling and imo counterproductive! But hey, it sure seems to ignite the self-styled 'ID revolutionaries,' and since the ideology is still ahead of the science, why let the open antagonism rest? "I think we should be careful not to identify the ASA with Biologos. At Biologos, there are no OEC or ID people; the TEs are completely in charge." - Timaeus Yes, this is a fair distinction. As well, I think your characterisation of BioLogos as an 'advocacy group' is appropriate. Thus, it makes me wonder why Ted Davis would wish to be associated with them (mainly because he sees his 'TE' the same as what they name 'BioLogos'?) and if Rev. John Polkinghorne would still accept being associated with them politically if he saw things that way. I've no doubt that Dr. Crocker was welcomed and treated warmly, without hostility by those she met at the ASA meeting. Will she speak here about her non-hostile interpersonal relations during the ASA meeting, or just about how most ASA people view 'intelligent design'? Those at ASA whom I've interacted with have almost always demonstrated grace and restraint, even in the cases or on the topics which we significantly disagree. Surely I agree with Ted that StephenB's view of ASA is inaccurate and needlessly condemning. The funny thing, again, is that if Crocker & her co-IDist there felt 'hostility,' it was to their 'ideology,' likely not to their person or to their 'science.' Suggesting that ID-ideology is inevitably part of ID-science, however, would be taken by ASA members as highly problematic and, indeed, something to warn its members against. Would Crocker accept as valid warnings given against ideology in science? In discussions of ideology, as I wrote above, surely some ID-leaders are far more capable of discussion than are those at either BioLogos or ASA, given their specific training in PoS, and not just in natural and applied sciences. ASA’s (partial?) rejection of Total Evolution, i.e. evolutionism as ideology or worldview, should be seen as entirely consistent with DI’s policy and its wedge strategy. Thanks, G.Gregory
October 16, 2011
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Ted, I would affirm again, and you seem to agree, that the typical ASA position is that God revealed himself in cosmology and hid himself in biology. As I pointed out, this is not, in my judgment consistent with the more comprehensive Biblical world view in which God's handiwork is everywhere. Psalm 104:24 proclaims, "How many your works are , O God ! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions." For my part, then, any Christian who denies that point and claims that design in biology (detectable design to be precise) is an illusion has compromised a philosophical truth as set forth in the Bible for no good reason except to accomodate the Darwinist paradigm. As you know, the problem doesn't end with God's philosophical revelation because we must also take into account God's theological revelations, for example, the teaching about an historical Adam and Eve and the fact that our singular first parents introduced sin into the world, a tenet that many in the ASA camp are also prepared to abandon, presumably in order to stay aligned with dubious neo-Darwinian claims about the unlimited creative power of natural selection, for which there is no evidence at all. You will recall that I was commenting on the ASA culture and was not referring to you personally or to every single member. I don't doubt that a small minority in that camp would hold views closer to mine. Even so, it is, primarily, a Darwin-first, Bible-second culture, that should, in my judgment, be reformed and aligned more closely to its stated claims.StephenB
October 15, 2011
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StephenB and others: I think we have to distinguish between the ASA as an organization and the currently dominant opinions among its members. The currently dominant opinion (and dominant opinion doesn't necessarily mean majority opinion) within ASA ranks may well be TE, but it doesn't follow that all ASA members are TEs. The currently dominant theology within the ASA ranks may well be a post-Enlightenment, "reinterpret the Bible and Christian theology to make them compatible with modern science" theology, but it doesn't follow that all ASA members are post-Enlightenment theological liberals. I think Ted is right to say that the ASA is what its members make it. It's my understanding that the ASA includes many TE, ID and OEC members, and that no single group has a simple majority. It follows that TE-sympathetic members will not get their way all the time, unless the ID and OEC people simply abandon the field to them. So non-TEs should exercise their rights as members to run for executive offices, to vote for executive officers that they think will be fair to their views, to submit papers to the journal, to read papers at conferences, to serve on policy committees, etc. If non-TEs don't do this, then of course TEs will run the show. How did the feminists gain such a massive influence upon the universities of North America? They have always been outnumbered on the faculty (and the extreme feminists have been outnumbered about 100 to 1), but because they are willing to spend enormous amounts of time on committees and governing boards and writing letters and making speeches around campus etc., and because those who are opposed to feminism have been unwilling to spend the same amount of time (perhaps because they think the main duties of a professor are teaching and research, not university politics, or perhaps because they have been browbeaten by claims that opposition to feminism is "sexist"), the feminists have come to have an influence upon university policies (speech policies, curriculum, whatever) that is far out of proportion to their numbers. Nobody stood up to them, and when they saw the political weakness of the silent majority, they naturally seized the reigns of power. The parallel is clear enough. If only TEs submit paper proposals for ASA conferences, and if only or primarily TEs submit papers to the journal, and if only TEs or mostly TEs are on all the governing bodies, hold all the editorial positions at the journal, etc., then of course TE viewpoints will dominate the organization. And if TEs can get away with nasty side remarks about ID or YEC people in their talks, because no one challenges them, either on the spot or privately afterward, then of course they will keep making those little jabs and put-downs. The non-TE people have to let the TEs who are being offensive know that they object to certain terms and attitudes. Complaining endlessly about city hall will never change city hall. Only concerted action ever changes anything. I think we should be careful not to identify the ASA with Biologos. At Biologos, there are no OEC or ID people; the TEs are completely in charge. Further, they are a particularly narrow group of TEs, strongly fideist theologically, with an extreme and almost irrational opposition to natural theology of any kind, and they are theologically liberal (though lately they are backtracking a bit on the liberalism, I would guess due to critical reaction behind the scenes from more orthodox Christian supporters who are bankrolling them), and on the scientific side committed to a very narrow neo-Darwinian interpretation of evolution which is rapidly becoming dated science. Further, Biologos is not a democratically run body of Christian scientists, but an advocacy group. Advocacy groups have their minds made up, and therefore their responses to criticism take on the flavor of defensive apologetics rather than genuine dialogue. The ASA, on the other hand, is a democratic organization and therefore has to answer criticism in a responsible rather than a partisan manner. In sum, I don't think we should identify the ASA per se as a TE organization, or a theologically liberal organization. I think, rather, that we should see it as an organization of Christian scientists which is, like all human organizations, subject to politics, and in particular to scientific and religious politics. I think that we at UD should be careful not to make sweeping judgments against the ASA as such, and should focus on criticizing particular opinions and actions of particular ASA members where we find them false or destructive, and encouraging any opinions or actions of ASA members that we see as good. For example, we should denounce any snide comments made by lead speakers at ASA conferences against ID or YEC people, and we should object to any slavish obsequiousness toward "consensus science" such as certain ASA people have from time to time exhibited, but we should also praise the editors of the ASA journal for the pro-ID articles that they have published, and encourage them to do more in the way of sponsoring ID/TE formal debates. Let's not demonize the ASA; let's encourage it to reform itself. It has good people within its ranks, and if their voices are heard, it can be rebalanced in such a way as to be truly representative of the diversity it embraces. And we can count on moderate people like Ted Davis to support any rebalancing that honestly reflects the views of the membership. T.Timaeus
October 15, 2011
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I agree with Ted's interpretation of my brief post. I would just add that the ASA has a long history of being *far* more open-minded about creationism/ID views than almost any other scientific organization that is not already explicitly creationist. The ASA has sometimes gotten flack from the more hot-under-the-collar sort of evolution defenders on that basis -- some have even tried to lump it with creationist organizations! I think this is difficult to support from a well-informed historical viewpoint about the ASA and the development of the views of its members. (Although I can think of one instance, the 1986 (?) ASA booklet, entitled something like Teaching Evolution in a Climate of Controversy, which was a response to the NAS booklet from the early 1980s. The first edition of the ASA booklet has some frankly creationist/proto-ID assertions, and was widely criticized. But this was largely taken out in a later edition IIRC.) So, it's pretty ironic to see criticism of the ASA for not being open-minded enough. I think what is really going on is that over the past twenty years there has been a quite detailed and thorough debate within the ASA about ID -- possibly a more detailed and coherent discussion with participants from both sides than has happened anywhere else. And yet, despite the extended consideration and the very sympathetic religious environment that the ASA presents, the ID movement has not been able to convince very many of ASA's scientists that their biological arguments work. If anything, ASA's membership seems to have moved very gradually towards being more and more theistic evolutionists, probably as the evidence for evolution keeps coming in, and the creationist/ID arguments get more attenuated, reworded instead of reevaluated, etc. This probably translates into more theistic evolution articles in the ASA journal, and more critical reviews of ID/creationist work both in published reviews and in whatever peer-reviewing the ASA journal does. But that's not bias, it's just the failure of ID/creationist arguments to convince people who are very well-informed about the relevant science as well as the relevant theology. I'm not sure what the solution is supposed to be to ASA's "bias", anyway. Affirmative action in the ASA journal for creationist/ID arguments that can't get in on their own merits? Quotas for the number of creationists of different stripes in the membership? There is really only one worthy path for those who want more ID in the ASA: improve the scholarship.NickMatzke_UD
October 15, 2011
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Thank you for clarifying your view, StephenB. If I understand you correctly, you agree with me that the people I mentioned believe that a design inference involving science is possible, and that they favor some form(s) of it themselves. This is sufficient for me then to suggest that your description of them ("As they would have it, God did not, as the Bible teaches, reveal Himself in nature at all") is a bit over the top. As for my own view, whether or not you regard me as a member of the particular group of ASA people for whom you have no sympathy, I cannot imagine a more accurate statement of my own position than this: "There certainly is no scientific evidence to support the idea that nature alone could fashion such beauty." I should think that anyone who identifies the contents of their Christian beliefs in terms of the ecumenical creeds (as I do and our members presumably also do) also agrees. The whole of "nature" is a divine creation; the properties and powers given to ontologically passive matter by God's free creative activity are indeed the source of all of the order we can comprehend. I fail to see how matter has the power to determine its own properties and powers; I fail to see how mathematical equations have any similar power, for they merely describe what we observe. (Hawking's belief that equations "cause" the universe is true, if at all, only in the sense that what Aristotle labeled "formal" causes are part of the story. Tegmark's belief that all mathematically consistent worlds must necessarily exist as physical realities tells me only that Tegmark enjoys science fiction and is not worried about Galileo's caution against making worlds on paper.) Now, I'll grant you StephenB, a belief such as mine might not give you what you seem to want, namely a knockdown argument you can use in as a club in culture wars.Ted Davis
October 15, 2011
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What's it going to be called, the IEEE special interest group for investigation of the Salem Hypothesis?NickMatzke_UD
October 15, 2011
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There is little behind the meaning of ‘BioLogos’ other than evangelical Christians desperately wanting to ‘belong’ in secular academia. Can you find a practicing biologist who is not an ‘evangelical’ Christian that uses the term ‘BioLogos’? I highly doubt it! Have you *ever* used the term BioLogos in a peer-reviewed publication, Ted?
Why does this matter? BioLogos is entirely or primarily a name, not a term. IIRC they invented the word. What's the big deal, it's a free country.NickMatzke_UD
October 15, 2011
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Ted, I am a big believer in disclosing the basic assumptions that inform my positions. In this case, I hold that Romans 1:20 is a general statement about God’s creation that applies to stars in the sky and things of the earth. To suggest that the Biblical God intended to reveal himself in the cosmological realm and then decided go into hiding in the biological realm is, in my judgment, ludicrous and anti-Scriptural. I can’t imagine why any committed Christian would try to make such a case. Even Richard Dawkins admits that biology is the study of living things which “appear” to be designed. I mean, seriously, can you not discern the apriori design in such micro marvels as the skeleton of a bird’s wings? Is it any less obvious than the macro marvels in the larger cosmos? Is it any less a part of God’s revelation in nature? How many of those men that you cited accept this comprehensive understanding of Roman’s 1:20, and by what justification do they limit it to those things that exist “in the heavens.” There certainly is no scientific evidence to support the idea that nature alone could fashion such beauty. For these men, it seems, as with the Darwinists, biological design is an illusion. What makes Christianity reasonable is, among other things, the fact that evidence for God’s design is everywhere, which is why non-believers are said to be “without excuse.”StephenB
October 15, 2011
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StephenB--who counts as members of "ASA’s predominant culture of Christian Darwinism"? Does Edward Davis count? If so, is he the same person who used design arguments in a campus debate at Oregon State? http://oregonstate.edu/groups/socratic/content/is-nature-all-there-is Does Owen Gingerich count? If so, is he the same person who answers the question, "Dare A Scientist Believe in Design?", with a clear "yes"? http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/04/300-all-things-bright-and-beautiful-36 Does Francis Collins count? If so, is he the same person whose work is described here? http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/health/4634.html Does Karl Giberson count? If so, is he the same person whose forthcoming book from InterVarsity Press, "The Wonder of the Universe," uses design in the universe as evidence for theism? http://www.karlgiberson.com/the-wonder-of-the-universe/ Does Rob Mann count? If so, is he the same person who argues against the multiverse and for creatio ex nihilo as the best explanation of cosmic design? www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2009/PSCF9-09Mann.pdf I'm sorry to appear so confused, StephenB, but the older I get the more it happens.Ted Davis
October 15, 2011
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Well, I'll listen to a respected former President of ASA about what ASA members think and believe and not some internet chat-head who simply doesn't know (speaking for "the entire premise" of ASA) yet nevertheless seeks to attack fellow Christians. I got over C.R. Darwin a long time ago & operate in either a non- or post-Darwinian world! Biologists, however, will continue to recognize the legitimate scientific contribution of Darwin, the good with the bad. Meaningless hyper-anti-Darwin ID protesters aside.Gregory
October 15, 2011
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