Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has the American Scientific Affiliation Forgotten Their Stated Identity?

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According to Dr. Katharine Hayhoe, a plenary session speaker at the July 2011 American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) annual meeting, anthropogenic climate change is a scientific fact and the reason that many Evangelical Christians do not believe it is that the “science is complex and they cannot see it happening in their own backyards.” In her opinion, Christian groups are exacerbating the problem by “lying and spreading false information” about global warming, even though “98% of scientists agree that it is settled science.” She said that this is an example of where science and faith are in conflict (?) and we need to educate our churches about the issue so that they understand that questioning anthropogenic global climate change is anti-science. Of course, it seems to me, that if they are willfully lying about the issue, questioning must also be anti-Christian.

Now, hear me accurately. I am not saying that anthropogenic climate change is or is not true—I am not a climate scientist. And I do agree with Dr. Hayhoe that we should be responsible in how we use the Earth’s resources and mindful of those who are victims of natural disaster. I have implemented her only suggestion for remediation by using Compact Fluorescent Light bulbs and have even gone one better—I walk to the grocery store. But seriously, I do not consider it to be anti-science or unChristian to be intrigued that Dr. Ivar Giaever, Nobel prize winning physicist, and Dr. Harold Lewis, physics professor emeritus from University of California, Santa Barbara resigned their memberships at the American Physical Society (APS) over the APS’s refusal to consider all the scientific evidence surrounding this issue. I believe that evidence should be heard and considered and that those who do not agree with the politically correct consensus should not be labeled as uneducated or unChristian. Naturally, after a talk like this, those who had questions about the veracity of manmade global climate change or the cost/benefit ratio of governmental policies on controlling carbon dioxide emissions did not feel free to ask questions.

As a current ASA member, I was in attendance at the ASA meeting entitled, Science-Faith Synergy: Glorifying God and Serving Humanity. The result is that I have become very concerned about this organization. It appears that the ASA has forgotten who they are supposed to be: “a fellowship of men and women of science and disciplines that can relate to science who share a common fidelity to the Word of God and a commitment to integrity in the practice of science.” Instead, the meeting was explicitly slanted towards promotion of consensus science, theistic evolution (TE) and what appeared to be a very watered down version of Christianity. ASA says that they have “no official position on evolution” and are a Christian organization that “accept the divine inspiration, trustworthiness and authority of the Bible in matters of faith and conduct,” but the content of several of the talks and the attitude of some of the speakers at the conference failed to embrace this commitment. The below paragraph was taken from the ASA website:

As an organization, the ASA does not take a position when there is honest disagreement between Christians on an issue. We are committed to providing an open forum where [scientific] controversies can be discussed without fear of unjust condemnation. Legitimate differences of opinion among Christians who have studied both the Bible and science are freely expressed within the Affiliation in a context of Christian love and concern for truth.

Although this statement projects the appearance of an environment where integrity in science and scientists who want to discuss their thoughts and follow the evidence where it leads could thrive, this is far from accurate. The purported openness to discussion of scientific controversies expressed on the ASA website is clearly disingenuous.

In fact, the organization appears to have strayed far from both their commitment to integrity in science (telling the whole story) and their Christian identity and is now ostracizing both scientists who question consensus science and those who are self-identified evangelical Christians. As a result, science-based reservations about evolution, global warming, and other controversial topics were not openly discussed. One scientist, who believes that Intelligent Design (ID) theory has merit from a scientific viewpoint, identified himself to me with the words, “feels like hostile territory here.” Speakers who made lock-step derogatory remarks about “conservative Christians,” “creationists,” and “ID people” doubtless fueled this perceived hostility.

Of the presenters I heard, Dr. Mark Winslow of Southern Nazarene University in Oklahoma was particularly offensive, labeling anyone who does not accept all aspects of evolutionary theory as “scientifically and theologically illiterate.” His paper was on how 15 Christian students moved from an “immature Young Earth perspective” with “little tolerance for ambiguity” to an “adult faith” that can “accommodate degrees of dissonance” after accepting the “authority” of the “trained evolutionist” professor. Take home message: If one questions aspects of evolution, one is an immature Christian. Those who are faced with educating recalcitrant churches full of Darwin-doubters were counseled to show patience until the creationists come to understand that the scientific evidence should be more important than the Bible in their formation of a worldview. I hope he did not mean that!

Despite the fact that the ASA conference brochure says presenters should maintain a “humble and loving attitude towards individuals who have a different opinion,” a moderator in the session then repeated Dr. Winslow’s slur about illiteracy as if it were a joke, instead of deeply offensive to those who have science-based reservations about the merits of some aspects of evolutionary theory.

Until this ASA meeting I did not really think that the debate about evolution was terribly relevant to Christian faith and, as a former research scientist, I knew that doubting the evolutionary dogma does not affect my ability to “do” science. Personally, I “believed in” evolution for twenty years after I made my decision to profess faith in Christ. It was not my faith that caused me to question aspects of evolution or to consider that there is merit to ID. Rather, it was the science, the cell biology.

I am currently a self-confessed evolutionary agnostic—I see that there is intriguing scientific evidence for some aspects of evolution, but also acknowledge that there are holes in that evidence. For example, my knowledge of the cell shows me that the stated mechanism whereby macroevolution is said to proceed does not work. I see logic in the view of ID proponents, but also realize that ID is a theory in process. I find TE both academically and theologically frustrating. Academically, I am unwilling to commit to having the faith necessary to believe that the whole of evolutionary theory will be proven right eventually. Theologically, I am confused about the presupposition that, even though God created the world, His action must by definition be completely undetectable. I thought that I would find many like-minded people at a conference for Christians in science. After all, scientists are known for having questioning minds and Christians value humility, so Christian scientists should be very willing to consider that their scientific or theological understanding is probably incomplete.

But, what I learned at the ASA conference was that reason the debate over evolution matters is that it is a symptom of a much more serious disease: the elevation of the authority of science and the scientific community above the claims and values of the Bible and Christianity. Scientism is a belief system where science becomes the preeminent way to ascertain all truth, making scientists—well, very important people. Symptoms of scientism much in evidence at the ASA conference were the repeated assertions that “all real scientists think…” and the communicated attitude that we need to accept the consensus of the scientific community and, if necessary, change our interpretation of the Bible to fit with the science.

Dr. Francis Collins, Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), exemplifies this type of thinking when he says, “And people are beginning to argue in very irrational ways based on a lack of understanding what the science says. If we could back off from all of the, sort of, hard edged rhetoric and really say, okay, what is science teaching us, I suspect that the moral dilemmas [involved with the use of embryonic stem cells for research purposes] are not nearly as rough as people think they are.” The idea that science should inform our interpretation of Scripture contains some truth and some untruth (e.g. science being able to teach us morality), as do most harmful ideas. Unfortunately, at much of the ASA meeting, it was the first step on a slippery slope to so much more.

Dr. Gareth Jones gave another of the plenary session lectures. During the first part of the talk on neuroscience and reproduction, he set up a hypothetical situation wherein a couple already have a child with a genetic disease, have a ¼ chance of their next child also having the disease, do not feel that they could cope with the stress and work of another sick child, but would like more children. Dr. Jones outlined that this couple has four options.
1) Decide not to have more children,
2) Take the risk and have a child,
3) Conceive a child, have pre-birth testing, and abort if the child has the disease, and
4) Donate eggs and sperm for in vitro fertilization and genetic testing,
with the intention of not implanting any defective embryo. Dr. Jones stated that Options 1, 2 and 4 are the only ones that would be acceptable for a Christian, making it appear as if he is assuming that human life does not begin at conception. A questioner who asked about a 5th option (birth followed by adoption) was shot down with the reply that that this would still allow a “defective” person to be born and that “freely chosen ignorance is not a virtue.”

Dr. Francis Collins, who is a self-proclaimed evangelical Christian and long time member of the ASA, also seems unclear about the ethics of using human embryos for research. He says that “human embryos deserve moral status” but that it may be more ethical to use the 400,000 embryos that are currently frozen for “breathtakingly” beneficial research than to “discard them.” If the leading scientist in our country believes this, why then should an ASA plenary session speaker commit to the Biblical view that human life from conception onwards is sacred, as is espoused in Ps 139:13? One may argue that the ASA is a place where all views can be discussed “without fear of unjust condemnation,” but this should surely be held in tension with their self-proclaimed acceptance of Biblical authority.

The ASA bias towards a liberal form of Christianity and elevating science above Scripture continued. During parallel session talks on the ethics of neuroscience and reproduction by a number of speakers, attendees at the ASA meeting were informed that science shows that sexuality is fluid and so it might be unethical to offer help to those wanting to change their sexual orientation (or identity). After all, the scientific consensus is that one does not choose to be homosexual, transgendered, or even a pedophile. Dr. Heather Looy, a psychologist from King’s University College, was concerned that we be compassionate and not keep homosexual people from enjoying a full sexual experience. A lovely person herself, who practices what she preaches, she stressed that we should not judge those different from ourselves. Dr. William Struthers from Wheaton acknowledged that the traditional family unit with a father and a mother is best for children, but also explained that gender is a spectrum and that Christians should hold science and Scripture in tension, realizing that God is love incarnate.

Of course, Christians should be aware that we are all sinners saved by grace and this should make us as compassionate to those caught in sexual sin as we would want them to be towards us in our sin. In addition, we all have character traits that predispose us to be more tempted by certain sins than we are by others. You may be tempted to sleep with someone of the same gender; I would be more tempted by a juicy piece of gossip. Giving in is sin, no matter the temptation. However, the traditional understanding of the Biblical teaching is that that the Lord gave us rules for our benefit and safety, not because He wants to be a spoilsport, and that obedience, no matter how difficult, is always the best way to attain fullness of joy. The current politically-correct scientific consensus does not negate this. For Christians science does not trump the Bible.

Finally, there were several presentations on why science must be methodologically naturalistic and why we should help our churches to accept that evolution is a fact. The final session was offered by Ruth Bancewicz from the Faraday Institute at Cambridge University on a course called Test of Faith. The purpose of Test of Faith, which is now travelling the country giving presentations at places like Gordon College, MIT, Wheaton, Fairfax Community Church, Bethel University, Point Loma Nazarene, and California Institute of Technology sounds wonderful and very in keeping with both good science and Christianity. It is to show how science is compatible with faith by highlighting various believing scientists. But, the producers have a self-admitted bias towards theistic evolution, as do the majority of the scientists (Francis Collins, Jennifer Wiseman, and John Polkinghorne), and so only represent a part of the entire community of Christians in science. Certainly, although there is a lot of recommended reading on their website, I could find no mention of Stephen Meyers’ Signature in the Cell or Michael Behe’s The Edge of Evolution. Test of Faith has been working with Youth for Christ, ASA, and the Bible Society and is well-funded by the Templeton Foundation.

So, what is the worry? The entire picture. ASA and BioLogos, the organization started by Dr. Francis Collins, and Test of Faith, backed by Templeton Foundation money, working together to convert the Christian world to a belief in evolution and, if the parts of the ASA meeting that I witnessed were anything to go by, a very watered down version of Christianity. These groups are also working with InterVarsity Fellowship, Youth for Christ, and the Bible Society. They are targeting universities, seminaries, and churches with their message that belief in evolution is compatible with faith and that all people of intelligence should embrace evolutionary theory as fact. Quite apart from the scientific problems with this view, some people are questioning whether the faith that is being espoused is still orthodox Christianity. The fruit of the ASA meeting, which included arguing based on ad hominem attacks, advocating a type of Scientism, equivocating about the sanctity of life, and disregarding Biblical standards for sexuality, suggests that it is not. ASA has forgotten its stated identity. ASA has lost its way.

Personally, I hope that, with the help and support of those of us who disagree with the turn they have taken, the ASA will get back on track. I’ll be looking forward to next year’s meeting in San Diego! Meanwhile, why not check out a scientific association that really does encourage the open discussion of controversial subjects in a non-hostile environment? American Institute for Technology and Science Education (AITSE) is such a place. Our vision is to promote good science, based on impartial evaluation of evidence, not mere consensus. Our mission is ”…to improve science education and encourage scientific integrity” and “offer clear, reliable and balanced education with the goal of liberating science and technology from ideology, politics and the restrictions of consensus…”

Dr. Caroline Crocker, who holds an MSc in medical microbiology and a PhD in immunopharmacology, is President of AITSE. If you enjoyed this article, please “like” AITSE on Facebook, follow Caroline on Twitter, and sign up for AITSE’s monthly newsletter. If you would like to help AITSE with its work to restore integrity to science, please donate generously. Finally, if you are a scientist or physician of integrity, please consider applying to join AITSE’s scientific consortium. Together we can make a difference.

Comments
The difference is that the Bible hasn't changed in quite a long time and science has. It seems inevitable that when one field has changed a huge amount over the centuries and the basic texts of the other (the Bible and the creeds) have changed either not much (the latter) or not at all (the former) that the one that is changing is going to be doing the pushing. Science was already pushing Biblical interpretation by the time of the church fathers, when Ptolemaic science was pushing Augustine and others to change the ancient interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures without even realizing that they were doing it. Theology and Biblical interpretation are inherently conservative and naturally get pushed by changes in science and social conditions. The conservatism is appropriate, but the historical pattern is that theology/interpretation eventually figures out what in science is really based on solid evidence and reasoning and figures out how to adjust to it. With this dynamic it seems pretty apparent that some among the scientists will know where things are headed before the theologians do. Frances Collins and others claim to be in that position now. I think that they are right, but I am a practitioner of the same sort of science. My guess is that the 21st century will recapitulate earlier history - evangelicals will slowly come to terms with evolution. There will be a great deal of regrettable accusations of heresy, and the change will come slowly, and in the end conservative Christians will have a better idea of what is really essential about Christianity than they did when the fracas began. Some of the fracas will occur here on UD. I suppose they might as well get on with it.PNG
October 18, 2011
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It seems that I am jumping into this at a late point, but what the heck. I expect Biologos to get bashed on this site, but it seems to have come in for a lot of bashing in this thread that I don't really understand. Biologos exists for a pretty simple reason. Molecular biology and comparative genomics have produced a mountain of evidence supporting common ancestry and evolution in general, including humans, indeed bringing it to the point that there are really only two alternatives: Accept common descent, or invoke miracles, millions of them, which work together to make the genomes of different species look like they have common ancestral genomes when they don't. Most evangelicals seem extremely determined to either ignore the evidence (understandable for the mass of churchgoers who would just like the whole thing to go away) or find some way to rationalize it away. Biologos is an attempt to get those people who care about evidence to look at it and take it seriously. They also try to demonstrate that this doesn't imply that core Christian beliefs have to be discarded. There is of course some disagreement about what counts as core Christian belief. Gregory, as always, is offended that social science doesn't get enough attention, and is anxious to defend its prerogatives against mere geneticists and preachers. (Nasty, unscrupulous geneticists, to borrow something from Peter Paul and Mary, which should tell you how old I am.) The others I'm not so sure about. I look at Biologos all the time. I see some arrogance in some of the commenters who come on to thunder against the liberal wickedness, but I just don't see the awfulness in the articles. It looks pretty gentle and humble (and well informed) to me, but I am a mere biochemist who once majored in philosophy. If Gregory wants to instruct everyone on his view from the social sciences, maybe he should offer to write an article. I gather that it would have to be rather more succinct than his comments here.PNG
October 18, 2011
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“Once you go back past the neolithic, what’s the point in trying to harmonize with Genesis anyway?” (Ted and Gregory) The point is to recognize that harmony is a two way street, which means that faith and reason are mutual partners in the aquisition of knowledge, which means that we should challenge the provisional conclusions of historical science with our interpretation of Scripture with the same rigor that we challenge our interpretation of Scripture with the provisional conclusions of historical science.StephenB
October 18, 2011
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Timaeus, Ted, Gregory. In some ways, I regret the fact that this discussion has focused too much on the Adam and Eve problem, which is real enough, and drifted away from the main point I was trying to make, namely that the ASA (more so Biologos) is using the rhetoric of design while embracing a non-design world view. Most of my questions are designed to illuminate that issue. Indeed, in my summary I indicated which issues were most important to me and the problem of Adam and Eve was not even mentioned. I think all my questions are fair, and Ted, if you have time to come back and congratulate Timaeus for expressing your views, then you would appear to have time to answer at least three of my questions and Timeaus and Gregory would, it seems, have time enough to decide if they are worth answering and whether it is fair for you to ignore them. If, as you say, you believe that God planned or directed evolution, do also you repudiate the unplanned undirected Darwinian evolutionary model as proposed by the majority of evolutionary biologists? If, indeed, you do disavow the model of unplanned evolutionary biologists, then why to you accept their claim that design is an illusion, which is a corollary of the Darwinian principle of unguided evolution? Do you recognize the design inherent in the structure of a bird’s wings?StephenB
October 18, 2011
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Elizabeth: Note the following exchange: Timaeus: "He thinks that in that eventuality [i.e., in the eventuality that neither he nor anyone else during his lifetime can find a scientific model that is non-evolutionary and compatible with Genesis], faith requires the intellectual surrender of what reason and evidence appear to teach." EL: "No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't." Let's take a look at some of his own words, shall we? Look at the following blog post: http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2009/09/truth-about-evolution.html Here, after *as a scientist* praising evolutionary theory for its great explanatory power, its massive evidential strength, and so on, he writes: "It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective." Do you see it, Elizabeth? The best explanation that science has so far come up with regarding origins -- and a very good explanation, in his scientific estimation -- he *rejects* on the basis of his faith commitment, i.e., his firm belief that the Bible "reveals true information about the history of the earth." This to me is crystal-clear. There is no evidence, in this blog post or in the others that I have looked at on the same site, that the rejection is in any way tentative. I.e., there are no statements to the effect of: "I intend to spend the next 20 years of my life trying to find a better scientific explanation than evolution, one that is compatible with Genesis, but if I can't, I will give up Genesis as a literal account of the past and come over to the straight evolutionary side." His rejection of evolution is presented as non-negotiable, as following from his faith commitment which he has no intention of betraying at any time, no matter how much more confirming evidence is found for evolution and no matter how little confirming evidence is found for any scientific alternative. You seem to be reading something into his position that is not found in his words. Maybe he has told you something privately that he has not shared with the world? Perhaps, but the rest of us have to go on what he has written. I think what he has written is quite clear, and supports exactly what I said. T.Timaeus
October 18, 2011
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btw, Todd posted a nice and relevant piece on his blog yesterday, entitled Is the church anti-science?Elizabeth Liddle
October 18, 2011
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Apologies for not addressing you by name. As we now have nested replies, I thought it was unnecessary, although actually I should have done, because I actually thought I was addressing StephenB! (As his name was at the top of your post). Also I owe you a couple more replies, which I hope to get to eventually. (Oh, as you point out.) Anyway, thanks for the clarification. Oddly, what you seem to be advocating is exactly Todd Woods' position. Which I think you have misunderstood :)Elizabeth Liddle
October 18, 2011
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I profoundly disagree with Todd, as he himself knows :) But I disagree that there is anything "schizophrenic" about his position, which, on the contrary, I find to have great integrity. I disagree here (but we could ask him to check):
He thinks that in that eventuality, faith requires the intellectual surrender of what reason and evidence appear to teach.
No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't. For a start, he is very dismissive of the idea that God would lie or mislead. What he appears to me to think, and it is a measure of his faith, that there is a perfectly good model that will satisfy both our reason and evidence, and will also be in accord with the bible, we just haven't found it yet. That's why he's so interested in "baraminology" and how the evidence we have might fit a very different model.
He may *hope* that there is a scientific model that supports Genesis, and he may be actively looking for such a model, but when push comes to shove, he has made it clear that he will support Genesis no matter how strong the scientific evidence looks regarding origins.
I think he has *faith* that there is a scientific model that supports Genesis! So far, when "push comes to shove" he gets on with shoving, in attempt to uncover it! That's the weird thing to me - Todd gets a lot of flak from Creationists of all people, for having what seems to me more faith than they do! For actually believing that God doesn't lie, and that eventually scientists will figure out how it all hangs together. Yes, I know it was a minor sidelight, but I just wanted to set the record straight as I see it! I have a soft spot for Todd :)Elizabeth Liddle
October 18, 2011
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Elizabeth, you wrote: "Todd does indeed accept that the evolutionary model fits the data." Correct. "But his position is that it cannot be the correct model because it conflicts with the bible." Correct. And this is exactly the sort of attitude which you implicitly condemn in your reply to me just above. Why should science confirm the Bible? Maybe the Bible is just plain wrong. "Therefore, it is the job of scientists to come up with a model that is consistent with the bible and fits the data just as well." But he is willing to take "the Bible's side" indefinitely -- to the end of his living days if necessary, if neither he nor anyone else can come with such a model. He thinks that in that eventuality, faith requires the intellectual surrender of what reason and evidence appear to teach. And he, like you, holds a doctorate in the life sciences. Do you think that this attitude is appropriate for a scientist? I cannot imagine that you do. He may *hope* that there is a scientific model that supports Genesis, and he may be actively looking for such a model, but when push comes to shove, he has made it clear that he will support Genesis no matter how strong the scientific evidence looks regarding origins. What is "schizophrenic" about this is that such a person walks around with two truths about the same reality -- origins -- in his head. As a professional, as a scientist, Todd Wood admits that "consensus science" has the best explanation of the data. As a Christian of a certain type (not my type), who interprets Genesis in a certain way, he thinks that is the wrong explanation of the data. The best explanation that his scientifically trained mind can come up with, he does not believe to be true. He spent years and years studying science in order to learn how to interpret nature, yet cannot allow his training to affect his conclusions about origins. I call that "schizophrenic" -- the scientist in him is at war with the fundamentalist. (Of course I am using schizophrenic in its popular sense rather than in any technical or clinical sense that may be different from the popular sense.) If you don't like my choice of words, well, I have now explained what I mean, so if you would prefer to attach some other term to cover the inner bifurcation of Todd Wood's position, go ahead and attach it. In any case, my remark about Todd Wood was a minor sidelight to the rest of my post to StephenB. Perhaps you would care to comment on the substance, rather than pick at a side point? No, cancel that request; I'd rather have a reply to the older post on the other thread. T.Timaeus
October 18, 2011
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Elizabeth: First of all, I assume from the position of your response that you are addressing me, but it would be nice to be addressed by name. The sudden "you" is jarring. Second, I'm still waiting for a reply to you from several days ago on the computer thread. Third, I am aware of the elementary facts about what science is. No, I am not calling for science to be adjusted for religious reasons. As you are unlike many of us here, in that you have not been debating TEs to the tune of millions of words for several years now, you are missing important context for my remark. The TEs, particularly at Biologos, are fond of saying that we should do complete justice to both faith and science, not sacrificing the one for the other. They are great champions of a division of labor, whereby theology deals with certain kinds of truths, and science with others, and the two do not interfere with each other but respect each other's competence. Yet whenever there is an apparent conflict between the claims of science and claims of theology, this vaunted equality of importance, this vaunted mutual respect, vanishes; if "science" purportedly shows X to be the case, and the Bible or theology has always been understood to teach not-X, Christians are supposed to redo their Biblical interpretation or their theology to bring it into harmony with the alleged truths of science. Never has a TE urged the reverse procedure, i.e., argued that, since the traditional interpretation of the Bible or traditional theology is sound, the currently accepted science must be a misinterpretation of nature, and scientists should go back to the drawing board, doing new experiments to get better data, or interpreting the same data differently, in order to make the truth of science conform to the known truth of the Bible. In other words, the deliverances of "science," (i.e., currently accepted science), are regarded as authoritative, and the deliverances of theology are regarded as shaky, subjective, soft inferences which need to be constantly policed and patrolled. So much for the allegedly equal partnership of theology and science! So you see, I am not making any claim at all about how science should harmonize with theology; I am pointing out the inconsistency of TEs who do not practice what they preach. This was a point raised by StephenB in one of his questions to Ted, and I was confirming his observations. I do not personally claim that science should adjust to theology, or theology to science; but then, I am not a Biologos TE, whose precarious intellectual existence hangs on such adjustments. I am quite willing to say that sometimes theology is wrong and sometimes current science is wrong; I don't believe in harmony between theology and science at all costs. I believe in following the evidence wherever it leads, no matter who is inconvenienced, be they Darwinists or Christian theologians of various stripes. I'm thus a very different sort of person than the TEs of Biologos. T.Timaeus
October 18, 2011
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Stephen, I have indeed dropped out of this thread. I came by this morning simply to confirm that I lack time to say more with the care that I would want to take. By the time I could get back to this, everyone will have moved on. Print media aren't like that, and (IMO) that's one of the biggest reasons why print won't be obsolete at any time I can foresee: it gives people time to work through hard stuff carefully, create new knowledge, and get it right (as far as one can). Timaeus has very nicely reinforced my point: any effort to deal substantively with what we now know about humans and did not know when Genesis took its current form (after the Babylonian exile) will necessarily involve hermeneutical exercises. For my part, Stephen, the pre-Abrahamic portions of Genesis do not seem to be historical in anything at all like the modern sense of "historical" that I think you have in mind. This complicates the matter for me, in terms of offering an answer. Please do read what Collins says. Short of having me write a similar paper of my own, which would take literally years (since I don't have the same level of background knowledge here that I would have on some other specific topics), that's the best answer you are going to have from me. It's conversations of just this type, Stephen, that make the ASA such a valuable organization--IMO. And no, Gregory, not everything is "up for grabs" for us, although I understand why a casual observer and non-participant in the ASA might think so. The ecumenical creeds are not exactly empty of content, as I think you will admit; but, notions of what the Bible actually teaches relative to science are not delineated with equal precision. That is a separate topic that I also do not have time for presently. One note for Timaeus: I believe that the concept of "federal headship" predates controversies about evolution, whether or not the term itself does (I don't know whether or not it does). Calvinists have used the concept for centuries, to the best of my knowledge. As I step out the door, please let me add, God bless all here.Ted Davis
October 18, 2011
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By the way, you do Todd Wood a great injustice. Todd does indeed accept that the evolutionary model fits the data. But his position is that it cannot be the correct model because it conflicts with the bible. Therefore, it is the job of scientists to come up with a model that is consistent with the bible and fits the data just as well. His faith, therefore, is not simply "well Genesis must be true, even if the evolutionary argument implies it is false", but "if Genesis is true, as I believe it to be, then there must be an alternative model that fits the data at least as well as the evolutionary model". And he has committed himself to finding that model. His faith is not simply that Genesis is true, but that there is a scientific model that supports Genesis. There is nothing "schizophrenic" about Todd.Elizabeth Liddle
October 18, 2011
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So you consider that not "calling for science to be adjusted to fit the Bible" is something that "TEs" are "guilty" of in your view? Does that mean that in your view, science should be adjusted to fit a prior assumptions/ideology? Isn't that what ID proponents are constantly (without justification IMO) accusing "Darwinists" and "materialists" of doing? The fundamental precept of science is that you fit models to data, not data to models. In other words you go where the evidence leads not where you want the evidence to go. I would have assumed you would agree. Don't you?Elizabeth Liddle
October 18, 2011
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p.p.p.s reading further, in the recent (2006) message from Robin Collins, we are agreed: "As for my proposal to include the hypothesis of design as a metascientific hypothesis, it is not a mere appeal to authority. Despite what Gross says about Newton (which is historically inaccurate), the history of science amply testifies to the positive role that belief in a designer has played in grounding the incredibly fruitful idea that nature has a underlying, elegant, mathematical order and that nature is intelligible by human beings. The question is whether such an idea can play a positive role beyond physics, even if following Einstein it is merely considered as a useful fiction. I am not advocating that scientists in general treat the world as if it were designed when they are doing science. I am only advocating that this be considered a legitimate position for a scientist to take as she theorizes and evaluates hypotheses about the structure of the natural world. What I am ultimately opposed to is the requirement that one be a methodological atheist, according to which one must treat the world as if it were not designed when doing science." Steve Fuller has made this point in "Science: The Art of Living" also (though without the MN vs. MN language of the mainly USAmerican discourse). One of the chapters is titled: "What has atheism ever done for science?" This may be an occasion to bring TE/EC & ID voices together, where it seems all too easy (e.g. origins vs. processes) to speak past each other and to move further apart.Gregory
October 18, 2011
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"Many ASA TEs are particularly reactive against YEC, and think that they see connections between YEC and ID, and therefore take out their hostility against YEC on ID people as well, even though many ID people, such as Michael Behe, have no connection with YEC." - Timaeus Is there a place where ID states its approach to the ideology of YEC? Does it hold a doctrine of 'appeasement' between geological and cosmologial sciences and biblical literalist ideology? I am not condoning hostility. It would be helpful if the IDM could take a stand against 'young earth'. But given the high percentage of US citizens who 'believe' young earth ideology, it seems to me they are forced to have no official position. Catholic-Orthodox tradition has accepted 'old earth.' "While I think that many people who call themselves “creationists” are misguided in their literal understanding of certain parts of the Bible, I think they have the virtue of taking the Bible seriously" - Timaeus So are you suggesting they are virtuous in their theology and without virtue in their scientific understandings? "What Dr. Crocker is expressing is the concern that within the ASA a certain looseness of commitment to the Bible and to classical Christian theology can be observed." - Timaeus Fair enough. Let us wait to see what Crocker can do about ASA's theology. "I therefore applaud Dr. Crocker for her courage in speaking out, and I urge her to submit scientific articles." - Timaeus Remember that this is 'safe space' on 'home field' for Crocker. Courage comes with going into the lion's den. If she submits scientific articles involving ID to ASA, great! Again, however, the issue of a seemingly unnecessary lack of ID-theology raises it head. Implications of ID easily become presuppositions for ID, which is why I raised the topic of 'ideology' above."If this is not happening, it is not the TE people who are to blame." - Timaeus Completely agreed!Gregory
October 18, 2011
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The main problem in our misunderstanding, Ted, seems to be that you wish to reject the Catholic-Orthodox view of A&E as real, historical persons, while I do not. Or maybe it is not that you ‘wish to reject,’ but rather that, priority-wise, ‘given the genetics,’ you’ve decided that you simply *must* reject it? If the latter, this is precisely the charge others here have spoken to you and I’ll leave it to them to do a better job at it than I have, given your expression of finding my writing ‘unintelligible.’ If you find yourself unable to understand me, Ted, then go back to 'the' Catholic-Orthodox view of A&E and it will speak much more powerfully and clearly than I do writing at this blog. Your position is hard to understand and unnecessary from (within) that perspective, but you know this already and acknowledged as much to StephenB – “You are a Catholic” Christian who shares the “official view”. Whether you and I share the same native tongue or not, Ted, is irrelevant, since the ‘official view’ one way or another navigates us both. Might it be that the Catholic-Protestant/Evangelical divide in USAmerica is even greater than the ‘science-religion’ divide generally and if not, then how to show this? It sure seems to inform much of the debate there, viewed from the outside. Warfield’s view about ‘theological indifference’ is not insignificant. I don’t find it authoritative, while you seem to elevate it above the teachings of the Vatican and the Orthodox churches on A&E. Such an ‘atemporal’ theology of indifference wrt human history sounds strange to me, but seems welcome to you. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that and you’ll continue to Protest your ‘right’ to hold that view. I stand corrected; Robin Collins is the lone philosopher in PEC. My memory has failed again (fallible child that I am!), since I took no notes from his paper (which can be found on-line here: http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/Evolution/Evolution%20and%20Original%20Sin.doc). He presents a theological philosophy on “Evolution and Original Sin” similar to that of Lutheran physicist-minister George Murphy. I read the paper in PEC, but missed the philosophy link. Thanks for drawing attention to him as “the best I’ve seen thus far.” I do value your views, Ted, and it is noteworthy to me that you place this emphasis on R. Collins’ position on this topic. I did notice your reference to him above, but he has not been on my radar. He will be now. Perhaps he is more important in the ‘ID-evolution’ conversation, especially inside USA, than I realized, especially given his previous affiliation with DI? There are ship-jumpers and new converts from/to DI, ASA and BioLogos – it’s hard to keep up, especially from far away! “Once you go back past the neolithic, what’s the point in trying to harmonize with Genesis anyway?” – Ted Davis Touché. How would StephenB answer this? The Neolithic sounds like a harmonious place for A&E and their Garden. Living in a City today need not lead one to doubt this Garden, Ted, though it may be harder to remember when living with concrete all around. Abraham's 'real, historical' parents are even outside the realm of possibility for some TE/ECs, just as are real, historical A&E. “I think Wilcox is simply saying, why bother with a specific date? What matters is the theology, not the details of the history.” – Ted Davis Who precisely is advocating a ‘specific date’ – are you arguing with Bishop Usher’s shadow as it still haunts Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals, rather than with the current sociological situation? Indeed, much of the thrust against ID in ASA can be explained as a reaction to YECism, an ideology that many TE/ECs have ‘overcome’ in their personal lives & now vehemently fight against. Yes, on this topic theology of course matters, but not in a vacuum as you propose it. Anthropology, psychology, economia, culture, society, etc. matter too, Ted! To these fields, a date of some kind, general or specific, *is* important (at least for Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha’is employed therein) and it is of course open to debate, just as it has been debated in biology. Why do you persist in promoting ahistorical theology about ‘the creation of man’, when this ‘anthropic’ history matters to other fields, fields containing knowledge which may cause you to change you views on ‘the power of genetics’ as the primary field in which to ‘scientifically’ address A&E? If you can think of a more integrative, inclusive approach to global humanity today than addressing an ‘anthropic/Adamic’ principle (outside of natural-physical sciences), then please name it. My ears are open! This may be a new direction for you, aside and differing from the American physics/cosmological ‘anthropic principle,’ but it may be worth entertaining. I find your privileging of genetics unnecessary, Ted – witness how you laud Wilcox’s suitability as biologist on this topic – and your definitions of ‘human,’ just as are Hurd’s, unsatisfactory and highly partial. Where you diverge from accepting an ‘anthropic/Adamic’ principle is where I embrace it. You and I would agree, Ted, if you would go further, saying “The ‘imago dei’ is a concept…” describing a ‘historical reality.’ Your linguistic approach seems to discount the reality, while the Catholic and Orthodox approach embraces that reality wrt A&E. This is the main ‘gap’ in understanding between us. Nothing that I am saying about A&E is new; what you and your PEC colleagues (and perhaps this should be taken as ‘the current majority ASA non-consensus view’ also?) are proposing is indeed, a radical (heterodox) departure from what R. Collins calls ‘tradition.’ Questioning whether or not it is a ‘thing’ is unnecessary; if we agree it is *who* we are then does that not make it also a historical reality? The R. Collins piece in PEC to me sounds like W.J. Clinton philosophy, Ted – “that depends on what ‘is’ is.” I can see how you would find so much value in it; maybe this is what counts as ‘normal philosophy’ in your circles. A verb the way Collins uses it is not a verb in the common sense. He contorts history the way he writes; sometimes ‘is’ means ‘is’ and at other times it means something else. I stand by what I wrote, with a clarification: PEC is based on a naïve philosophy ‘of science’ (PoS). Loren Haarsma actually still writes there (2003!) about “the scientific method” as if there was a single monolithic way of ‘doing science’ in all of its current-day manifestations. Do you agree with Haarsma that there is a ‘single scientific method,’ Ted? Now, after reading more a bit more of R. Collins and re-skimming his PEC paper, he would not agree with Haarsma (or with Falk) about the notion of there being only a single ‘scientific method.’ Why then did R. Collins not review the book and correct the Haarsma’s and others’ outdated approach? That said, there is much good in the book, imho, in terms of its aims to help Christians learn and understand what scientists who are ‘believers’ have discovered…and how that relates to their religious faith. It is the faulty PoS in PEC that I am focussing on and which I find unacceptable. Since ‘heterodox’ views about A&E in your approach seem insignificant or even impossible (the latter, which may be over-reaching to make a point, thou), the discussion cannot proceed any further than where PEC has already gone. You’d prefer to believe in a real, historical A&E, but can’t see in our ‘scientific age’ how that is possible. End of story. To Fosbury flop (or Brill Bend) your Fosdick: “Processes prove nothing in the realm of origins.” Your PEC friends and colleagues hype the process and hiccup the origin. I guess that strategy has its place too. But I don’t find it to be a balanced or sustainable one in the end. Maybe it is a necessary reaction in the face of hyper-origins approaches and the persistence of YECism in your dialogue circles; it smacks of the ideology of ‘scientism’ in the more mature PoS circles that I am trained in. So, ID is mainly interested in ‘origins’ and TE/EC is mainly interested in ‘processes’ (while we forget about YECism as an ideology of the past). Does this partly explain why the two groups find it hard to see eye to eye? Respectfully Yours, Gregory p.s. the duo ‘Christian Darwinist,’ dated to very recently, seems more like an inquisitional device than one that most people will take seriously. It is an ID-centric self-display of ignorance in a post-Darwinian age. Even the freaky-fly geneticist D. Venema seems to back away from, or just not to answer, whether or not he considers himself a ‘Darwinist’. So the label seems more like a tarring tactic & a witch hunt rather than a helpful attempt at dialogue, as neither StephenB nor I question whether or not Venema is a(n evangelical) Christian. If you prefer this approach, then just carry on with UD-ASA bashing and worsen the general TE/EC-ID discord. p.p.s. this message was written before reading Timaeus’ recent post to StephenB, which contains obvious overlaps as well as distinct views.Gregory
October 18, 2011
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StephenB: Since Ted has retired from the thread, perhaps I can jump in and help here. The question you are asking Ted in #30 above is an important one, but I think Ted is trying to get you to focus on a narrower and less cosmic question, i.e., how does one interpret the Bible? Let me summarize the case that many have made against the "ASA reading" of the Bible. (And bear in mind what I've written above, that there is no "ASA reading," but only the reading of individual ASA members, many of whom are OEC or ID people.) This reading of the Bible is accused of being liberal, heretical, unorthodox, a sell-out to scientism, etc. On what grounds? Apparently, that it puts science above the Bible. Well, I think that sometimes individual TEs (whether they belong to the ASA or not) are guilty of this -- certainly we never see TEs calling for science to be adjusted to fit the Bible; it's always the other way around. Yet I think it is too simple to leave matters this way. What Ted is trying to point out is that "the" teaching of the Bible is often not completely clear. A given passage or story may have several possible interpretations. In such cases, if some interpretations clash with what seems to be the best available science, it would make sense to pick one of the interpretations that doesn't clash with the science. So, for example, if we take the genealogies in Genesis literally, we have Adam and Eve, parents of the whole human race, living approximately 4,000 B.C. But genetics, and the physical research of archeologists and paleontologists, indicate that the first parents of the human race couldn't have been that recent. So many Biblical interpreters, especially TEs, have suggested an approach something like the one you have suggested: maybe Adam and Eve weren't the first biological parents of all human beings, but were the first truly human being, i.e., the first hominids to be "in the image of God." Adam and Eve thus became the "federal heads" (I believe that is the jargon some of the TEs use these days) of the race, and therefore, when they "fell" in 4,000 B.C. or thereabouts, the race fell with them; but there were other physically human hominids before them. But note that this proposal, which you appear to endorse as a legitimate one, and which many TEs like, plays fast and loose with the traditional understanding of Christianity. No one thought that Adam and Eve were only "federal heads" before. Every Christian interpreter understood them to be the literal parents of the race (based on Paul's remarks) *until* modern scientific and historical study appeared to make that impossible. In other words, both you and the TEs have in fact adjusted the traditional Christian interpretation of Genesis in order to accommodate science. So if the TEs are "selling out" to liberalism and scientism and heresy, so are you, in your suggestion. But is it "selling out" to try to find an alternate reading of the Bible that makes sense in the light of modern science? Is it "selling out" to read the passages in the Bible which appear to imply that the earth is immobile in the light of what we now know, i.e., that the earth moves? Or is it reasonable and permissible for faithful Christians to do this? As a Catholic, you are not committed to absolute literalism regarding Genesis. Rome has granted that there may be figurative elements in the Garden story, for example. If there can be figurative elements there, perhaps there can be elsewhere. Perhaps the genealogies, for example, have figurative rather than literal significance. Perhaps we can allow tens of thousands of years between Adam and us, on the assumption that the genealogies in the Bible were stylized and not meant to be read as an accurate set of parish records, at least, not prior to the time of Abraham. If we can allow such a length of time, then the problem posed by the existence of modern human beings 10,000 or 100,000 years ago is no longer a problem. If we could have a first couple, ancestral to all modern human beings, and made in the image of God, that lived in 100,000 B.C. rather than 4,000 B.C., would that compromise anything essential to Christian faith? I'm not sure that it would. And it wouldn't even require your adjustment of adding the "image" to a pre-existing race of hominids. The "image" might have come into being with the first physical humans, 100,000 years ago or so. More problematic is the population genetics argument that the earliest single couple that could have been ancestral to all human beings couldn't have lived even as recently as 100,000 years ago, but would have lived something like 6 million years ago, and would have been pre-human. Such a couple would not have been Adam and Eve, made in the image of God. So if we accept the "science" there, we must either say that Adam and Eve never existed, or adopt a solution like the one you propose, i.e., that God endowed a biologically human pair with the spiritual essence of human beings much later on. But note that both of these answers have been adopted by Christians. Denis Lamoureux, a Pentecostal who accepts not only the Resurrection but all the Biblical miracles and contemporary miracles as well, thinks that Adam and Eve are mythical and were never intended to be taken literally. Other TEs go with your "federal head" notion. Is it obvious that Lamoureux is "selling out" and that the "federal head" people are more orthodox? I don't think so. True, Lamoureux's view has no basis in Christian tradition. But neither does the "federal head" view. *Both* views can be regarded as "selling out" to science, as letting Christian theology be modified by science. But what is our alternative? To deny the evidence of genetics, and thus deny the conclusion that a first set of parents couldn't have been human? Well, it is possible that the inferences of the geneticists are wrong, but that puts a heavy burden on Christian apologists. They then have to become master geneticists and show that the scientific consensus is wrong. Is that what you would recommend, that Christians plant their feet on the assertion that the calculations of the geneticists are wrong -- must be wrong -- because the Christian tradition insists otherwise? But then, what if it turns out that the consensus of the geneticists is right? Does Christian faith then fall? Is there no alternative but to risk Christianity itself on the gamble that the geneticists have made an error? I'm not taking sides here, Stephen. I'm pointing out the complexity of the matter. And I haven't even touched on another aspect of the complexity -- the interpretation of Paul's statements on the Fall. What if those statements are not historically meant, as the tradition has assumed? So what I am saying is: the TEs *can* be interpreted as "selling out," but that isn't the only possible interpretation. They *can* be interpreted as doing what all Christians always do -- trying to make the Bible make sense in the light of all the rest of our knowledge. Is it heretical to demand an integrated body of truth -- a common truth shared by science and theology -- about the past? If it is, then the only truly Christian position on Adam and Eve would be something like that of Todd Wood, who schizophrenically asserts that the evolutionary view has the best scientific argument, but that Christians should not accept it anyway, but should prefer the Biblical view, on faith. So he pits faith against science, religious loyalty against reason. The warfare view, all over again. I can't believe that you, Stephen, a Catholic with respect for the Catholic tradition of reason in theology, would go for that schizophrenia. I think that you, like Ted Davis, are looking for an integrated view, that harmonizes the essence of the teaching of the Bible with the best science, without compromising on the essence of Christian revelation. And this is Ted's point -- that it's not sinful, wicked or liberal to look for such an integrated view. So it's not sinful, wicked or liberal to revisit the Bible and inquire whether certain passages might bear some non-traditional (but still textually respectful) interpretation. I agree with you completely, Stephen, about the theoretical incoherence of much of what goes by the name of theistic evolution. But Ted is not here defending TE per se. He is asking you to grant what you have already in fact granted, i.e., that Biblical interpretation that harmonizes with the best science is not *necessarily* "selling out." It can be, but it need not be. T.Timaeus
October 17, 2011
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Gregory, It's not apparent that you even looked at the Collins essay in PEC, which I cited as the option I regarded as the best I've seen thus far. As for Wilcox, you are correct that he's a biologist rather than an anthropologist; he's a geneticist, to be precise--an appropriate discipline to weigh in on this issue. You include a quotation above taken from B.B. Warfield (obviously from a posthumous edition of one of his works, since he died in 1921) as if it had no significance. Warfield was an author of the Princeton doctrine of inerrancy; in other words, theologically he was pretty darn conservative, although the YEC somehow imagine that he was a flaming liberal. (The Creation Museum in Cincinnati regards Warfield and his colleague Charles Hodge as "compromisers" for accepting an old earth, blaming them ultimately for the decline of Princeton Seminary. I cannot recall seeing a better example of being out to lunch than this.) The significance of that quotation is the astonishing degree to which someone as orthodox as Warfield allowed the principle that Adam & Eve could have been as far back as 200,000 years without a challenge to the Bible. He actually thought that 20,000 years was all that science warranted, but any date you wanted could be made consistent with the incomplete genealogies in Genesis, in his opinion--so far back that any idea of a neolithic couple is obviously obliterated. This does seem a bit out lunch as well. Once you go back past the neolithic, what's the point in trying to harmonize with Genesis anyway? I think Wilcox is simply saying, why bother with a specific date? What matters is the theology, not the details of the history. (Warfield was heavily influenced by his friend, William Henry Green: http://www.outersystem.us/creationism/PrimevalChronology.html) In general, Gregory, when we've exchanged thoughts on other occasions I have often found myself unable to understand you at all. This is not meant as an explicit or implicit slam; it's just a statement that our minds work so very differently, it's as though we were each speaking languages unintelligible to the other. IMO, the "imago dei" is a concept, not a clearly defined thing that God gives us, such as a "soul" or "spirit." I very much doubt that the Hebrews understood it to be a "thing" either; I believe they thought it was *who* we are, not an aspect of *what* we are. As Fosdick said once (and I know I'm quoting a "modernist" theologian, which I don't normally do with approval, but he was right on this), "Origins prove nothing in the realm of values."Ted Davis
October 17, 2011
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Gregory, I'm afraid it's difficult for me to think of anything by Robin Collins as being "philosophically naive." Apparently you missed the obvious fact that Collins is a leading philosopher of science and also a philosopher of religion. If you don't know this, then I am inclined to doubt your judgment throughout your comments here.Ted Davis
October 17, 2011
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In a single question, Ted: How (or why) do you imagine 'God breathed spiritual life into Adam' in a non-temporal framework? How can this 'event' that you acknowledge, possibly have happened 'outside of time,' within your TE perspective? It is baffling to me how a Christian could imagine this, so I am asking you out of geniune wonder, Ted. If you believe it without 'knowing' or because it is absurd, that is a fine answer. I don't expect a 'scientific explanation.'Gregory
October 17, 2011
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Curt, thank you for confirming the point as a former insider.StephenB
October 17, 2011
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I do, think, however, that Gregory has a point about your unwillingness to address the historical Adam and Eve.StephenB
October 17, 2011
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Sorry Ted, but you did answer question #1. I appreciate it and apologize for hurriedly reading over it. Perhaps we can take up the broader issue next time, especially the logical problems inherent in the CD framework and how you might try to provide a rational justification for. I don't think it is possible. Cheers!StephenB
October 17, 2011
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Ted, meaning no disrespect, but you did not answer any of my questions. You simply responded to my answer to one of your questions. I tried to provide direction and make it much easier by intergrating all of my concerns into one, unified question, one which could have been answered in one tenth of the time that you invested answering a question that I didn't ask. There are serious logical problems inherent in the irrational Christian Darwinist formulation, and those problems are intensified by those who hold that world view in the name of Traditional Theistic Evolution, an entirely different world view that happens to be rational.StephenB
October 17, 2011
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Ted, There was not a single philosopher present in the book "Perspectives on an Evolving Creation," (2003) ed. K. Miller. You know this. Does it not worry you in any way or lead you to think that something might thus be missing in your (collective TE/EC) approach? I found the anthropoogy there appalling and primitive, while your Chapter 3 paper was safely orthodox, historical and uncontroversial. No problem with what you wrote in that volume, Ted, only with what others wrote there. Quotes from PEC: “If Adam lived at the time of the Neolithic, how should we classify the pre-Adamic forms so abundant in the fossil record? If they walked like humans, worked like humans, and worshipped like humans, were they not human? Did they not have godness?” - J. Hurd (224) “It is not necessary for us all to be biological descendents of Christ for Christ to redeem us.” - J. Hurd (226) “certainly by the time of the UP, humans had a God-consciousness; they had spirit.” - J. Hurd (230) 'Certainly,' really?! As 'certain' as that we should even call those creatures Hurd casually refers to as 'humans'? “Human: A folk category, not a scientific classification. The roughly equivalent scientific term is Homo sapiens.” - J. Hurd (231) Check this closely, ladies and gentleman: there *can be* no 'science' of humans, according to Hurd! So his classification of 'humans' in the previous quotation is based, not on science, but on __________? David Wilcox: Quoting Warfield: “It is to theology, as such, a matter of entire indifference how long man has existed on the earth.” – (1932) Theological indifference, perhaps this should be further explored? “it would seem that they really did live – these creatures that are ‘in the middle’ between the apes and ourselves. Who or what were they? It’s not easy to say.” - Wilcox (236) 'They really did live.' But...as it looks now, Wilcox is 'in the middle' between heterodox and orthodox. As an evangelical Protestant, who does Wilcox answer to about the reliability of his 'scientific' opinion? Again, you seem to want to trust biologists to answer anthropology questions. Why? “Certainly, God breathing spiritual life into Adam is not an event that we can expect to see in the fossil record.” - Wilcox (253) You still have not answered StephenB's question: was it a real-historical event, Ted, in YOUR opinion? PEC uses verbs mystically when speaking of Adam's actions. Reminds one of W.J. Clinton's evasive "that depends on what 'is' is." “It does suggest the sudden appearance of modern humanity, but questions the idea of a single pair.” - Wilcox Yes, it does, doesn't it?! The questionig seems to be the view Ted and his ASA institution are now promoting. 'What if'...no single pair, no direct intervention, no 'miracle' in the creation of 'modern humans' (as the palaeontologists call us). Well then, what if God didn't make human beings in God's image either? ASA should be (in a) free (country) to ask this question, even if Rome and Constantinople would reprimand them for it. “the choice to speak of ‘the soul’ or ‘soulishness’ is a matter of semantics and preference. I have argued that soulishness is a human attribute that has emerged from complex brain processes.” - Warren Brown (523) So 'soul' is not something 'real' or 'historical' either, according to PEC and its particular evangelical PoS; it is 'just semantics'?! (Now time to remind that 'soul' is not the same as 'spirit,' and dance away?) Please excuse, but this sounds more 'wishy-washy' than 'scientific'. So much for PEC's 'scientific authority' - it looks more like a reactionary attempt to 'shake evangelicals' from their under-education (which, of course, as a basic idea is applaudable). No comment on Ted's referral to Enns.Gregory
October 17, 2011
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Ted, I'm so glad you raise PEC 3 times in one post! I spent part of the summer reading it. The book is quite obviously 'heterodox' and philosophically naïve, exactly in the sections you name. It will be a pleasure to explore this in public here and elsewhere. Comments on and quotes from PEC wrt A&E will follow. Thanks, Gr. p.s. after D. Alexander ok’d (i.e. allowed his name to be put on) the amazingly sophomoric definition of ‘Darwinism’ as simply ‘the theory of evolution by natural selection’ at BioLogos, which has now been removed, I’d say he’s lost some credibility due to his apparent ignorance of the ideologies involved, even if he can 'speak current biology' and faithfully ‘lay out’ the ‘options’ about A&E. Not having an opinion (e.g. D. Falk) doesn't count much for credit in this discourse.Gregory
October 17, 2011
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I decided that after over 42 years of membership, ASA has drifted from its original purpose-- so I can no longer support the ASA. This has been a gradual change and I have been patient to see if would improve. My eye design web site has much evidence for a Creator–Designer-God. There are about 9 design themes of eye design where any kind of evolution would not have a credible answer in crossing over from one design theme to another. Also science is limited in answering questions regarding the creation of life, value of life, moral absolutes, purpose, immortality, etc. As science learns more we gain more appreciation of the complexity of materials, design of life, and the absurdity of life without God. It has been an interesting trip, but I must put my time and resources into something I firmly believe in.Curt
October 17, 2011
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I forgot to mention a the book by Peter Enns, "The Evolution of Adam," that is forthcoming from Brazos Press this winter. The basics of Pete's view are probably known to you already, Stephen, and I would guess that you don't see it his way. (Pete is not an ASA member, and I don't know how much of a following he will have among our members. I like his work a lot.) However, IMO serious conversation about the Bible and evolution among evangelicals has been a long time in coming, despite efforts by many in the ASA and elsewhere to foster a conversation of that sort. I called for just this here: http://evanevodialogue.blogspot.com/2008/06/evangelicals-evolution-and-academics.html. Feel free to comment on that essay in this thread even though I will be unable to participate for most of the next week.Ted Davis
October 17, 2011
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I'm sorry, Stephen, you're too late. I spent the last 90 minutes answering your first question, and I have to let this thread go now.Ted Davis
October 17, 2011
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To get more specific on the details--as you obviously want me to--I can only point to various accounts by individual people that do not offer any clear single answer. Some of the options presented keep an "historical" Adam, in senses that the authors find meaningful, and perhaps you would also in a given case. You yourself speak about God "creating" humanity "in that sense," which as I have already said does not make a satisfactory view for many Christians. I'll list below five accounts by individual "Christian Darwinists" and let folks consult them as they see fit, to document my claim that there is no [single] view about an historical Adam & Eve among this group that you seem to be seeing as if it were a monolith--the way in which you typically (IMO) treat advocates of TE. (You don't see TE as a "big tent," even though it's just as much of one as ID is.) (1) In Keith Miller's book (readers please note, Keith Miller and Ken Miller are different people), "Perspectives on an Evolving Creation," the essay by James Hurd, "Hominids in the Garden?" reviews three different scenarios: "Ex nihilo," "Like Father Like Son," and "Early Origin." Each has its scientific and/or theological problems, but any of them might be satisfactory to you; it is not for me to say. Not available free on-line (a lot of TE material is in printed books or academic journals that have firewalls, so the diversity of opinion among advocates of TE is not as readily visible as it otherwise would be). (2) Same book, the essay by David Wilcox, "Finding Adam: The Genetics of Human Origins." Presents the standard "out of Africa" scientific view and hedges his bets on how to understand it in terms of Adam & Eve--we can't demonstrate any specific view as yet, he basically says, and he leaves it an open question. (3) Same book, the essay by non-ASA member and former Discovery Institute fellow Robin Collins, "Evolution and Original Sin." This one doesn't deal very much with anthropology, but it does tackle the title topic head on, including the crucial biblical texts in some detail. I recommend this one especially to you, Stephen. I can't give a 3-minute version; I can say only that I like his "Historical/Ideal" view better than any of the other options I've seen. So, if you want to see my own view, you'll go read this. If you want to start a separate thread about it after studying it, that might be a great conversation to have; perhaps (perhaps) I could persuade Robin to say something in it, but I make no promises. Although Robin is not an ASA member and is well known for his work on design, he would probably also call himself a TE. Neither he nor I presently sees those terms (TE and ID) as mutually exclusive, although I have the impression that you, Denyse, Karl Giberson, and many others do see it that way. I won't try to have that conversation here and now; I'll just point it out. (4) Denis Alexander's article: http://biologos.org/blog/models-for-relating-adam-and-eve-with-contemporary-anthropology-part-1 (but be sure to see all four parts). Denis is well known here; he's not an ASA member (rather he's a member of the British equivalent, CiS), but he would have a good following among ASA members in the group you identify. I won't summarize this since everyone can access it for themselves. (5) Dean Arnold, "How Do Scientific Views on Human Origins Relate to the Bible?" in "Not Just Science," edited by former ASA President Dot Chappell. Arnold, an anthropologist, was recently elected a Fellow of the ASA. I can't say for sure what his view is on ID, but my sense from this article is that he's probably an OEC and not a TE. Again, I'm not sure about this interpretation of his work--why not read it and draw your own conclusions? He probably does not belong to the group you are worried about, but as a recently elected Fellow I think you can assume that he's well respected within the ASA. I've done my best to answer your question [A], the same one I posed to you, Stephen. I'm sure it won't be hard for you to find a copy of Miller's book--perhaps you already have one--and read the view that presently makes the most sense to me (that by Collins). All of these writers have thought about this more carefully than I have; I have no original thoughts to add to theirs. Your other questions, some of which I've answered elsewhere, will have to wait for another time, since I really have no time now to answer them as carefully as I would like.Ted Davis
October 17, 2011
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