Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has the American Scientific Affiliation Forgotten Their Stated Identity?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

According to Dr. Katharine Hayhoe, a plenary session speaker at the July 2011 American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) annual meeting, anthropogenic climate change is a scientific fact and the reason that many Evangelical Christians do not believe it is that the “science is complex and they cannot see it happening in their own backyards.” In her opinion, Christian groups are exacerbating the problem by “lying and spreading false information” about global warming, even though “98% of scientists agree that it is settled science.” She said that this is an example of where science and faith are in conflict (?) and we need to educate our churches about the issue so that they understand that questioning anthropogenic global climate change is anti-science. Of course, it seems to me, that if they are willfully lying about the issue, questioning must also be anti-Christian.

Now, hear me accurately. I am not saying that anthropogenic climate change is or is not true—I am not a climate scientist. And I do agree with Dr. Hayhoe that we should be responsible in how we use the Earth’s resources and mindful of those who are victims of natural disaster. I have implemented her only suggestion for remediation by using Compact Fluorescent Light bulbs and have even gone one better—I walk to the grocery store. But seriously, I do not consider it to be anti-science or unChristian to be intrigued that Dr. Ivar Giaever, Nobel prize winning physicist, and Dr. Harold Lewis, physics professor emeritus from University of California, Santa Barbara resigned their memberships at the American Physical Society (APS) over the APS’s refusal to consider all the scientific evidence surrounding this issue. I believe that evidence should be heard and considered and that those who do not agree with the politically correct consensus should not be labeled as uneducated or unChristian. Naturally, after a talk like this, those who had questions about the veracity of manmade global climate change or the cost/benefit ratio of governmental policies on controlling carbon dioxide emissions did not feel free to ask questions.

As a current ASA member, I was in attendance at the ASA meeting entitled, Science-Faith Synergy: Glorifying God and Serving Humanity. The result is that I have become very concerned about this organization. It appears that the ASA has forgotten who they are supposed to be: “a fellowship of men and women of science and disciplines that can relate to science who share a common fidelity to the Word of God and a commitment to integrity in the practice of science.” Instead, the meeting was explicitly slanted towards promotion of consensus science, theistic evolution (TE) and what appeared to be a very watered down version of Christianity. ASA says that they have “no official position on evolution” and are a Christian organization that “accept the divine inspiration, trustworthiness and authority of the Bible in matters of faith and conduct,” but the content of several of the talks and the attitude of some of the speakers at the conference failed to embrace this commitment. The below paragraph was taken from the ASA website:

As an organization, the ASA does not take a position when there is honest disagreement between Christians on an issue. We are committed to providing an open forum where [scientific] controversies can be discussed without fear of unjust condemnation. Legitimate differences of opinion among Christians who have studied both the Bible and science are freely expressed within the Affiliation in a context of Christian love and concern for truth.

Although this statement projects the appearance of an environment where integrity in science and scientists who want to discuss their thoughts and follow the evidence where it leads could thrive, this is far from accurate. The purported openness to discussion of scientific controversies expressed on the ASA website is clearly disingenuous.

In fact, the organization appears to have strayed far from both their commitment to integrity in science (telling the whole story) and their Christian identity and is now ostracizing both scientists who question consensus science and those who are self-identified evangelical Christians. As a result, science-based reservations about evolution, global warming, and other controversial topics were not openly discussed. One scientist, who believes that Intelligent Design (ID) theory has merit from a scientific viewpoint, identified himself to me with the words, “feels like hostile territory here.” Speakers who made lock-step derogatory remarks about “conservative Christians,” “creationists,” and “ID people” doubtless fueled this perceived hostility.

Of the presenters I heard, Dr. Mark Winslow of Southern Nazarene University in Oklahoma was particularly offensive, labeling anyone who does not accept all aspects of evolutionary theory as “scientifically and theologically illiterate.” His paper was on how 15 Christian students moved from an “immature Young Earth perspective” with “little tolerance for ambiguity” to an “adult faith” that can “accommodate degrees of dissonance” after accepting the “authority” of the “trained evolutionist” professor. Take home message: If one questions aspects of evolution, one is an immature Christian. Those who are faced with educating recalcitrant churches full of Darwin-doubters were counseled to show patience until the creationists come to understand that the scientific evidence should be more important than the Bible in their formation of a worldview. I hope he did not mean that!

Despite the fact that the ASA conference brochure says presenters should maintain a “humble and loving attitude towards individuals who have a different opinion,” a moderator in the session then repeated Dr. Winslow’s slur about illiteracy as if it were a joke, instead of deeply offensive to those who have science-based reservations about the merits of some aspects of evolutionary theory.

Until this ASA meeting I did not really think that the debate about evolution was terribly relevant to Christian faith and, as a former research scientist, I knew that doubting the evolutionary dogma does not affect my ability to “do” science. Personally, I “believed in” evolution for twenty years after I made my decision to profess faith in Christ. It was not my faith that caused me to question aspects of evolution or to consider that there is merit to ID. Rather, it was the science, the cell biology.

I am currently a self-confessed evolutionary agnostic—I see that there is intriguing scientific evidence for some aspects of evolution, but also acknowledge that there are holes in that evidence. For example, my knowledge of the cell shows me that the stated mechanism whereby macroevolution is said to proceed does not work. I see logic in the view of ID proponents, but also realize that ID is a theory in process. I find TE both academically and theologically frustrating. Academically, I am unwilling to commit to having the faith necessary to believe that the whole of evolutionary theory will be proven right eventually. Theologically, I am confused about the presupposition that, even though God created the world, His action must by definition be completely undetectable. I thought that I would find many like-minded people at a conference for Christians in science. After all, scientists are known for having questioning minds and Christians value humility, so Christian scientists should be very willing to consider that their scientific or theological understanding is probably incomplete.

But, what I learned at the ASA conference was that reason the debate over evolution matters is that it is a symptom of a much more serious disease: the elevation of the authority of science and the scientific community above the claims and values of the Bible and Christianity. Scientism is a belief system where science becomes the preeminent way to ascertain all truth, making scientists—well, very important people. Symptoms of scientism much in evidence at the ASA conference were the repeated assertions that “all real scientists think…” and the communicated attitude that we need to accept the consensus of the scientific community and, if necessary, change our interpretation of the Bible to fit with the science.

Dr. Francis Collins, Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), exemplifies this type of thinking when he says, “And people are beginning to argue in very irrational ways based on a lack of understanding what the science says. If we could back off from all of the, sort of, hard edged rhetoric and really say, okay, what is science teaching us, I suspect that the moral dilemmas [involved with the use of embryonic stem cells for research purposes] are not nearly as rough as people think they are.” The idea that science should inform our interpretation of Scripture contains some truth and some untruth (e.g. science being able to teach us morality), as do most harmful ideas. Unfortunately, at much of the ASA meeting, it was the first step on a slippery slope to so much more.

Dr. Gareth Jones gave another of the plenary session lectures. During the first part of the talk on neuroscience and reproduction, he set up a hypothetical situation wherein a couple already have a child with a genetic disease, have a ¼ chance of their next child also having the disease, do not feel that they could cope with the stress and work of another sick child, but would like more children. Dr. Jones outlined that this couple has four options.
1) Decide not to have more children,
2) Take the risk and have a child,
3) Conceive a child, have pre-birth testing, and abort if the child has the disease, and
4) Donate eggs and sperm for in vitro fertilization and genetic testing,
with the intention of not implanting any defective embryo. Dr. Jones stated that Options 1, 2 and 4 are the only ones that would be acceptable for a Christian, making it appear as if he is assuming that human life does not begin at conception. A questioner who asked about a 5th option (birth followed by adoption) was shot down with the reply that that this would still allow a “defective” person to be born and that “freely chosen ignorance is not a virtue.”

Dr. Francis Collins, who is a self-proclaimed evangelical Christian and long time member of the ASA, also seems unclear about the ethics of using human embryos for research. He says that “human embryos deserve moral status” but that it may be more ethical to use the 400,000 embryos that are currently frozen for “breathtakingly” beneficial research than to “discard them.” If the leading scientist in our country believes this, why then should an ASA plenary session speaker commit to the Biblical view that human life from conception onwards is sacred, as is espoused in Ps 139:13? One may argue that the ASA is a place where all views can be discussed “without fear of unjust condemnation,” but this should surely be held in tension with their self-proclaimed acceptance of Biblical authority.

The ASA bias towards a liberal form of Christianity and elevating science above Scripture continued. During parallel session talks on the ethics of neuroscience and reproduction by a number of speakers, attendees at the ASA meeting were informed that science shows that sexuality is fluid and so it might be unethical to offer help to those wanting to change their sexual orientation (or identity). After all, the scientific consensus is that one does not choose to be homosexual, transgendered, or even a pedophile. Dr. Heather Looy, a psychologist from King’s University College, was concerned that we be compassionate and not keep homosexual people from enjoying a full sexual experience. A lovely person herself, who practices what she preaches, she stressed that we should not judge those different from ourselves. Dr. William Struthers from Wheaton acknowledged that the traditional family unit with a father and a mother is best for children, but also explained that gender is a spectrum and that Christians should hold science and Scripture in tension, realizing that God is love incarnate.

Of course, Christians should be aware that we are all sinners saved by grace and this should make us as compassionate to those caught in sexual sin as we would want them to be towards us in our sin. In addition, we all have character traits that predispose us to be more tempted by certain sins than we are by others. You may be tempted to sleep with someone of the same gender; I would be more tempted by a juicy piece of gossip. Giving in is sin, no matter the temptation. However, the traditional understanding of the Biblical teaching is that that the Lord gave us rules for our benefit and safety, not because He wants to be a spoilsport, and that obedience, no matter how difficult, is always the best way to attain fullness of joy. The current politically-correct scientific consensus does not negate this. For Christians science does not trump the Bible.

Finally, there were several presentations on why science must be methodologically naturalistic and why we should help our churches to accept that evolution is a fact. The final session was offered by Ruth Bancewicz from the Faraday Institute at Cambridge University on a course called Test of Faith. The purpose of Test of Faith, which is now travelling the country giving presentations at places like Gordon College, MIT, Wheaton, Fairfax Community Church, Bethel University, Point Loma Nazarene, and California Institute of Technology sounds wonderful and very in keeping with both good science and Christianity. It is to show how science is compatible with faith by highlighting various believing scientists. But, the producers have a self-admitted bias towards theistic evolution, as do the majority of the scientists (Francis Collins, Jennifer Wiseman, and John Polkinghorne), and so only represent a part of the entire community of Christians in science. Certainly, although there is a lot of recommended reading on their website, I could find no mention of Stephen Meyers’ Signature in the Cell or Michael Behe’s The Edge of Evolution. Test of Faith has been working with Youth for Christ, ASA, and the Bible Society and is well-funded by the Templeton Foundation.

So, what is the worry? The entire picture. ASA and BioLogos, the organization started by Dr. Francis Collins, and Test of Faith, backed by Templeton Foundation money, working together to convert the Christian world to a belief in evolution and, if the parts of the ASA meeting that I witnessed were anything to go by, a very watered down version of Christianity. These groups are also working with InterVarsity Fellowship, Youth for Christ, and the Bible Society. They are targeting universities, seminaries, and churches with their message that belief in evolution is compatible with faith and that all people of intelligence should embrace evolutionary theory as fact. Quite apart from the scientific problems with this view, some people are questioning whether the faith that is being espoused is still orthodox Christianity. The fruit of the ASA meeting, which included arguing based on ad hominem attacks, advocating a type of Scientism, equivocating about the sanctity of life, and disregarding Biblical standards for sexuality, suggests that it is not. ASA has forgotten its stated identity. ASA has lost its way.

Personally, I hope that, with the help and support of those of us who disagree with the turn they have taken, the ASA will get back on track. I’ll be looking forward to next year’s meeting in San Diego! Meanwhile, why not check out a scientific association that really does encourage the open discussion of controversial subjects in a non-hostile environment? American Institute for Technology and Science Education (AITSE) is such a place. Our vision is to promote good science, based on impartial evaluation of evidence, not mere consensus. Our mission is ”…to improve science education and encourage scientific integrity” and “offer clear, reliable and balanced education with the goal of liberating science and technology from ideology, politics and the restrictions of consensus…”

Dr. Caroline Crocker, who holds an MSc in medical microbiology and a PhD in immunopharmacology, is President of AITSE. If you enjoyed this article, please “like” AITSE on Facebook, follow Caroline on Twitter, and sign up for AITSE’s monthly newsletter. If you would like to help AITSE with its work to restore integrity to science, please donate generously. Finally, if you are a scientist or physician of integrity, please consider applying to join AITSE’s scientific consortium. Together we can make a difference.

Comments
Correction: Darrel.Gregory
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
11:52 AM
11
11
52
AM
PDT
Ted, if more people approached this ‘culture war’ like you do, with an even hand for consideration of progressive ideas, we’d be in much better shape! Truth be told, however, I don’t think BioLogos Foundation “would be a more effective advocate of its position if one or two philosophers were regular contributors.” I honestly think BioLogos would collapse if it was put under philosophical scrutiny. It is that backwards, primitive and damaging with its scientistic and anti-Orthodox views. Neither they nor you think they are acting ‘scientistically,’ but the record clearly shows this is happening and it is not a historian but a philosopher who is suitable to judge this. There is little behind the meaning of ‘BioLogos’ other than evangelical Christians desperately wanting to ‘belong’ in secular academia. Can you find a practicing biologist who is not an ‘evangelical’ Christian that uses the term ‘BioLogos’? I highly doubt it! Have you *ever* used the term BioLogos in a peer-reviewed publication, Ted? Indeed, ‘evangelutionist’ is an appropriate label for the appeasement-oriented management at BioLogos. They do not understand or take seriously the influence of ideology in science. Thus, they disqualify themselves from meaningful discourse in this heavily-ideological conversation. BioLogos, from a philosophical perspective, quickly turns into ‘biologism.’ And it runs away from addressing the ideology of biologism as fast as ice cream melts in a boiling sauna. I have much, much more respect for ASA than I do for BioLogos. Daryl Falk, in his book “Coming to Peace with Science” (2004) actually still thinks there is only ONE ‘scientific method.’ This is absurd! Who could pretend this in our era and try to keep a straight face? Just look at the language there – he speaks of ‘the scientific method’ as if a single universal method holds (true) across natural and social sciences, and even across only natural sciences. The only way a ‘scientist’ could hold such a view is if they’d never taken a course or read a text in PoS. Maybe 'BioLogos' is suitable for teaching in Falk's Sunday school anti-warfare class, but nowhere else. Falk’s primitive views of PoS do no credit to BioLogos and unfortunately they are duplicated by several Fellows there. But wait, still more, Perspectives of an Evolving Creation – the primary text for TE – repeats the same obvious misunderstanding. When will these natural-physical scientists learn of their oversights? PEC suffers from lack of PoS just as does BioLogos. Why then, Ted, would I trust TE to provide an adequate view of ‘science’? “In an ideal world, I’d be a regular contributor to BioLogos myself” – Ted Davis Please don’t lower yourself to that level, Ted!Gregory
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
11:39 AM
11
11
39
AM
PDT
Hi Ted, Firstly I want to express my thanks for your comment(s). As always they are thoughtful, well-informed and clear-headed. Secondly I want to apologize for my lack of historical context needed for a complete understanding of this conversation. I did not come to have an interest in Intelligent Design (or Theistic Evolution for that matter) through any sort of creationist background. Prior to this the best description of myself would have been: a somewhat agnostic(to God AND Evolution) pseudo-christian, spiritual pluralist. Most of my (Self)education came from reading the likes of Nietzche, Sontag, Barthes, Foucault, Buber, Camus, Sartre. . . etc. Along with Hawkings, Darwin, Desmond Morris and more. I say all that to point out that I was somewhat unaware of the backstage goings-on within the Creationist Movement. That being said I must point out that although your comment was well-expressed Nick's seemed to be nothing more than a "see i told ya ID aint nothing but creationism" swipe. Also I still wonder why Nick would care if a new ID-friendly Christian-based science organization were to pop up? What if the Issues that faced some of those Creationist groups did not crop up in this ID group? I would imagine (hope?) that some (if not most) of those fractional issues wouldn't occur given ID's Large-Tent status. I also hope it is understood that there are a fair amount of IDist who are NOT Christians. Either way I pray the ASA and it's members can find a common ground.MedsRex
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
11:29 AM
11
11
29
AM
PDT
That should read, "Christianity is a reasonable faith, unlike all other world religions that rely solely on a mindless leap of faith."StephenB
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
11:08 AM
11
11
08
AM
PDT
Gregory: “..at the end of the day’ almost everyone in ASA sees Christianity as ‘more important’ than anything that they have learned or contributed personally in science.” Not really. Indeed, it is just the other way around. The entire premise of ASA’s predominant culture of Christian Darwinism is anti-Biblical because it militates against the rational foundations for Christian belief, elevating postmodern skepticism over Christian revelation. According to the teachings found in Psalm 19 and Romans 1:20, God’s handiwork is evident in nature. Because this Scriptural truth is expressed philosophically, it provides a rational basis for accepting the attendant Theological truths that must be accepted on faith. Hence, Christianity is a reasonable faith, unlike all other world religions, is dependent solely on a mindless leap of faith. The ASA culture of Christian Darwinism, on the other hand, subordinates Scriptural truth to Darwinist speculations that design is illusory. As they would have it, God did not, as the Bible teaches, reveal Himself in nature at all. Under the circumstances, we are reduced to the same irrational status of all other world religions. To deny God’s revelation in nature (God’s real design comes before the fact) on the strength of the unsupported claims of evolutionary biologists (the illusion of design comes after the fact) is to elevate the ideology of Darwinism over the tenets of Christian truth.StephenB
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
11:05 AM
11
11
05
AM
PDT
"Dr. Gregory" mentions that my name is listed on the BioLogos website as "one of them" (he says). OK, fair enough. I am more sympathetic with TE (which BioLogos calls "BioLogos") than with ID. No secret there. As for the specifics of my views, please let me quote this, from the introduction to the place where BioLogos lists me as a "leading figure" (their description, not mine). There, say this: "The individuals we have identified below do not necessarily agree with BioLogos in every way, but their writings are complementary to the BioLogos view." OK, fair enough, but as I told one of my ID friends recently, I hold to the motto of the Royal Society: "nullius in verba." Anyone who knows what that means, in historical context, knows where I am coming from. Anyone who wants to know my views in detail, however, need only read what I have written in various places. For BioLogos, that would be maybe half a dozen columns and a few comments on those columns as well as some others. It's true that I am not a philosopher, although I've studied some PoS and still read some in that field. (I gather that philosophers don't think I'm a complete idiot, for I recently did a colloquium for one of the top PoS programs in the world, the one at the U of Minnesota.) I also share "Dr. Gregory's" view that BioLogos would be a more effective advocate of its position if one or two philosophers were regular contributors. In an ideal world, I'd be a regular contributor to BioLogos myself; I was asked multiple times to have such a role, but to tell the truth finding time to teach many courses annually, to talk to and spend time with my wife and family, to do scholarship (as vs blogging), sometimes to blog (as presently), to be involved at my church, and to lecture outside of my campus is very hard to balance. It's a zero-sum game, and blogging regularly for anyone (incl BioLogos) is not something I can commit to. I'd be interested in doing a column for UD at some point, if there were sufficient interest, but the same problem affects my attitude toward that. It's a rare morning that I can do what I'm doing this morning.Ted Davis
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
ID is not radical or new, it is very well supported but, it has implications that will cause it to be resisted by many with a fervor. Don't forget the history of science that we all learned - Periods of know-it-all arrogance where the consensus scientist (smart as they were) thought it was all figured out, were resistant to everything, and were eventually made fun of in subsequent generations for what they thought was true. It will be far worse for evolution in the future.butifnot
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
09:56 AM
9
09
56
AM
PDT
Having sent in some other posts this morning on other aspects of this thread, I now reply to Caroline's concern about the Bible, relative to the ASA. You're right to raise this issue, Caroline. It's the single toughest issue many Christians face: how should I understand biblical authority and inspiration, given what I also understand about the world from science? As you know, a very large number of books have been written about just this topic, and quite a few of those were written by ASA members--including members who reached very different conclusions about a lot of the specific matters pertaining to this huge issue. As I said elsewhere here, ID ignores questions like this, by definition. TE does not, by definition. Nor does the ASA; for many years, it was our bread and butter, and it is still a big interest for many of our members even though it is no longer topic number one for most members (according to what they tell us). B/c conversations about science and the Bible are and always have been openly visible within the ASA, they are openly visible. Because they are not openly visible within ID, at least not in the same way (that is, ID leaders might talk about them in a given place, but they state that they are not doing ID in that place; what rank and file people say here is more revealing, but can't be taken for ID in some official sense), they are not openly visible. What results from this? Many things, but the one I will point out here is as follows. People will inevitably perceive the ASA as more "liberal" in its attitudes, b/c some "liberal" views about science and the Bible will be expressed by given members. As I say, this is inevitable from the nature of the ASA per se, vis-a-vis the nature of ID per se. What is the range of opinion about science and the Bible, on the part of ID proponents? In comparison with the state of opinion among ASA members, there is precious little data. The experiment simply can't be done. From private conversations over many years, however, I can tell you that many ID proponents consider "creationism", in the sense of YEC views, to be absolutely ridiculous. A few ID proponents are known publicly to hold YEC views; most just avoid the topic. The attitude that you report hearing about creationism at the ASA this summer, however, I've also heard quite often from ID proponents, including some folks who are very conservative themselves in terms of biblical hermeneutics. They simply don't voice it where anyone else is listening. (I will have to leave myself open to the charge of rumor mongering or hearsay, b/c I will not provide chapter and verse on these conversations. But, as many here know, I do get around and I do not make things up.) When someone like Bill Dembski does talk about biblical hermeneutics openly (I'm thinking of his recent book, "The End of Christianity"), we discover that some people think he's too "liberal," too. The fundamental question here, Caroline, IMO, is how to navigate a distinction that is prominent in the single most important text (IMO) that has ever been written about science and the Bible: namely, Galileo's "Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina." The distinction I have in mind is that between the inspiration and the interpretation of the Bible. As Galileo put it, "the holy Bible can never speak untruth-whenever its true meaning is understood." This isn't the place to have a detailed conversation about inspiration, interpretation, and that other "i" word that could be the elephant in the room: inerrancy. We can't even have a detailed conversation about Galileo's views on this, let alone those of other classic authors such as Augustine or Calvin, let alone important contemporary authors such as Peter Enns. All I can do is simply to say that even within a very conservative religious tradition, such as the PCA church, there have recently been detailed and very heated conversations about how to understand these "i" words, in the context of debating matters related to both the age of the earth and the motion of the earth (that is, whether Copernican astronomy is acceptable; I'm not making this up). Well, I suppose can do a bit more than that. For understanding conversations about the role of the Bible, vis-a-vis science, within the ASA, let me point you to a book written a long time ago: "The Christian View of Science and Scripture," by the late Baptist theologian Bernard Ramm. It's very dated (obviously), and many ASA members today would take a different approach on some of the many topics Ramm discusses, but it's still a good introduction to the complexities of sorting out the "i" words in relation to science. Please try to borrow a copy from a library or buy one on the internet (long out of print but easily found for well under $10), pick a few sections to read carefully--including the very detailed footnotes, which say a great deal more than simply providing information about his sources--and reflect on what you read. I hope you can find time to do this. For more information about this book, in the context of the ASA and its history, go to http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1979/PSCF12-79dyn.html. Looking back to the 1950s, when Ramm wrote that book (which he did partly based on the experience of being assigned to teach an apologetics course on science and the Bible at BIOLA), it is worth keeping in mind that it was this book and the flood geology of George McCready Price that led Morris and Whitcomb to write "The Genesis Flood." They loved Price and detested Ramm, to put it bluntly. They believed that Ramm played fast and loose with Scripture, and they wanted to show Bible-believing Christians that there is a better way--namely, young earth creationism. They would have resonated with your statement here, Caroline, that "for Christians nothing trumps the Bible, not even science." I don't mean to imply, not for minute, that you identify more with Whitcomb and Morris than with Ramm. I have no basis whatsoever to say that; we've never met, and I know nothing about you except what you say here and what has been said in news outlets (including ID news outlets) about your experience at George Mason. None of that indicates to me what you really think, relative to the "i" words and science. My point in quoting you, Caroline, is simply to say that what you mean by saying that nothing trumps the Bible could be similar to what Ramm said; it could be similar to what Whitcomb and Morris said; it could be something else. But, if you dig further into ASA conversations about science and the Bible, I think you'll find that our members have thought a great deal about this, and that a lot of that conversation is hard to evaluate against your affirmation that "nothing trumps the Bible, not even science." For example, anyone who really believes (as I do, and as our members implicitly say they do by affirming the ecumenical creeds) that God raised Christ bodily from the grave does not really believe that science trumps the Bible. On the other hand, anyone who really believes (as I do, and as most of our members do) that the earth is a great deal older than the human race really does believe that science trumps the Bible. I'm not contradicting myself; I'm only pointing to the complexity of the "i" words in this context. Reading Ramm might be very helpful in this connection. If you get a chance to do that, please let me know. My email address is available in the online ASA directory. If you want to talk about it in another column here, I'd love to join in.Ted Davis
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
09:42 AM
9
09
42
AM
PDT
I don't think so, William. It is true that it is harder to gain acceptance for radical new ideas (plate tectonics; relativity; quantum mechanics; geocentricity) than for ideas that only mildly tweak the status quo, but that's as it should be. Cold fusion would be awesome, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be welcomed if supported. Cold fusion would be awesome, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And for cold fusion it hasn't been forthcoming. Don't mistake rigorous scrutiny for lack of welcome. Not that that happened in the case of Galileo of course, but then that was the church ;)Elizabeth Liddle
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
Elizabeth says:
If ID theories have merit, then they will be welcomed. If they don’t, they will be rejected on that lack of merit.
That's a very naive and historically erroneous view of human nature and the institutions they inhabit, including the scientific community.William J Murray
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
08:43 AM
8
08
43
AM
PDT
Now for that larger issue. As I just said, the ASA journal (and the organization that sponsors it) *is* about science and religion. As Bill put it so aptly, "faith commenting on science." Many years ago I attended a workshop led by Bob Russell, the physicist-theologian who directs CTNS (http://www.ctns.org/). This was even before there was an ID movement, so it was indeed quite some time ago. Bob made the point that, in the conversation involving science and theology, philosophy was the crucial mediating third party. I found that perceptive, and I still do. Over the years, the ASA journal has increasingly reflected this. (I am not implying that I had very much to do with this myself. Although I have nudged things in that direction a few times, the trend predates my involvement as either a Council member or a consulting editor for the journal.) This is not to say that the ASA journal has become just a third-rate journal devoted to (say) HPS or theology; not at all. Rather, we are a high quality journal mainly given to theological, philosophical, ethical, and historical reflection on science, mainly written by and for Christians in fields related to science (including humanistic fields like HPS). Our current editor, Arie Leegwater, is an organic chemist who also studied history of science with the late Reijer Hooykaas; our next editor (as announced at our July meeting) will be bioethicist James Peterson (http://blogs.roanoke.com/sosalem/2011/03/roanoke-college-appoints-first-charles-and-helen-schumann-professor-of-christian-ethics/). Even though original ID technical arguments will usually appear elsewhere, our journal is a good place to submit quality manuscripts dealing with non-technical aspects (though obviously drawing on technical aspects where appropriate) of ID, esp those related to Christian reflection on the nature of nature and the nature of science. ID authors have not been reluctant to address those issues in many venues, and they should not be reluctant to address them in our journal, either. The key issue (as always) is the quality of the paper. As a consulting editor for many years, I've seen a lot of subpar submissions, and some of those have been about ID. The fact that we've published a good number of pro-ID papers should indicate that I am not equating "subpar" with "pro-ID." I am convinced--and perhaps I am mistaken; only time will tell--that both the current generation of Christians and future generations of Christians will find the ASA and our journal to be a very valuable resource for helping them to sort out these difficult issues. The process of faith formation is intensely personal; as Robert Boyle wrote in his twentieth year, "The Dialect of Faith runs much upon the First Person." The conclusions of technical science can certainly influence faith formation, insofar as physics can rule out some types of metaphysics (as Polkinghorne has put it); but, science does not bring its own metaphysical framework with it--that is the fundamental error of the new atheists, whether their names are Dawkins, Hitchins, Atkins, Weinberg, or Myers. Gould (to his credit) realized this, even though he went too far (IMO) in thinking that science rules out the possibility of miracles and of a "supernatural" realm (i.e., of a reality that would exist even if nature did not exist). The ASA exists mainly for reasons related to this. First, we lay out for Christians what some of the philosophical and theological options are (and there is no single option, not even within a "big tent" like ID or the equally large tent of TE). Second, we provide a faith-friendly network for people in the sciences, including people at top research universities whose very existence functions as a defeater for Dawkins' view (widely shared among the new atheists) that genuine science means atheism or something close to it. (This is not simply some quiet testimony to the contrary; people like Francis Collins really bother Dawkins. That is why Coyne and others have tried so hard to discredit Collins in the public eye.) Third, we foster creative thinking about science and Christian faith. We've been the main professional home for some really creative people, including (among others) the late Bernard Ramm (see my other post here about him), Dick Bube (who taught Christianity and science at Stanford until the PC police stopped him), the late W. Jim Neidhardt (who never had support from his university for what he did), George Murphy (whose ideas are ironically regarded as too liberal by many ID folks while being regarded as too orthodox by many in the larger "religion and science" conversation). Most of the things done within the ASA are openly theological or at least faith-specific, and that is of course another difference with ID, which (at least officially) deliberately avoids this. Consequently, differences within & among proponents of ID concerning theological and biblical matters are not matters that get very much attention; they do not lead people to wonder whether or not they are in the right place. Those differences exist, however; they are simply papered over most of the time. Bill Dembski knows the risks of expressing himself about such matters; he knows that people in some Christian circles will call for his head, even though objective observers would probably describe Bill's theological views as very conservative. Should he talk about those issues, even with careful disclaimers that he's not doing ID when he does? Or, should he avoid talking about them in order not to rock those boats? I think he should, myself; I think the refusal to talk about such things within ID itself is somewhat disingenuous, since IMO those issues really are there beneath the surface. In any case, when he does talk about those things he's acting like we do in the ASA, even though he is no longer part of us.Ted Davis
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
08:28 AM
8
08
28
AM
PDT
Dear Dr. Crocker, Dr. Davis and Uncommon Descent readers: The answer to the thread topic’s question is: No, ASA has not forgotten their stated identity. Ted Davis’ responses clearly show this. “relative to ID and TE, the ASA is what its members make it.” – Ted Bingo! Democracy – a ‘magic word’ in USA, along with ‘please’ and ‘thank you’! “Theologically, I am confused about the presupposition that, even though God created the world, His action must by definition be completely undetectable.” – Crocker Why then doesn’t one of the ID leaders trained in theology propose ID-theology? This would lay to rest the claims that ‘intelligent design’ is being proposed as ‘just science,’ which is how it appears to me to the current day. Wouldn’t efforts at making some kind of ‘God-detection theology’ become a hot topic, should someone in the IDM propose it? It seems the ‘desire to appear scientific’ within the IDM still trumps any willingness to promote an ID-theology, thus smacking of ‘scientism’ just as much as Crocker’s views of ASA. I asked this same question personally to William Dembski in 2008 in front of an audience. Jonathan Wells was in the room and later thanked me for my question. Dembski, however, tired from jet lag, disappointed with a dodgy answer – the ‘appearance’ of building a bridge still appears to be one-sided in his approach. Why? It is quite obvious that he lifts ‘natural sciences’ onto a pedestal, just as many atheists do, suggesting little possibility of the ‘bridge’ that he so desperately seeks. The 30+ other students in the room who witnessed Dembski obviously skirt my question can testify to this. Why is the IDM so against identifying ID as a theological position, in addition to its strivings ‘in science’? “ID is a theory in process.” – Crocker So is every other theory, *after* it has been ‘originated’ and articulated in print. There *are* original ideas that are ‘game-changers’. One should not confuse ‘origins’ and ‘processes’ on this theme. A post- or non-evolutionary theory would speak to this and it need not be referred to as simply ‘in process’ on the day, month or year that it is proposed and published. That day will come (maybe it has already, outside of the IDM); to the chagrin of ideologues. Christians and Monotheists of all kinds may welcome it as better integration of science, philosophy and theology than what had come before it either with “ID IS SCIENCE” or “TE uses the best science” rhetoric. “the scientific evidence should be more important than the Bible in their formation of a worldview.” – Caroline Crocker This is an inaccurate view of ASA, which Ted has stepped forward to address. I was active on the ASA Listserve for a couple of years and can assure you that ‘at the end of the day’ almost everyone in ASA sees Christianity as ‘more important’ than anything that they have learned or contributed personally in science. “Scientism is a belief system where science becomes the preeminent way to ascertain all truth, making scientists—well, very important people.” – Crocker This is a weak definition; a half-way attempt but no more. Such definitions of ‘scientism’ are common in N. America where ideology is poorly understood. The ideologies that most N. Americans hold are little understood in science, philosophy, religion conversations. All one has to do is notice the absence of philosophy, the prevalence of ‘science and religion’ as duo in institutions to accept this general point. Scientists simply *are* ‘important people’ when they produce ‘advances’ in knowledge’ that impact large sectors of human society, whether their own society or not doesn’t seem to matter. But there are also artists, musicians, athletes, gov’t officials, bankers and others who are ‘important people’ in a given society. Crocker seems to be in self-contradiction, since she has followed a career path that now seeks to show how unimportant her profession is! Re: ‘Scientism’ – many IDists *and* TEists commit excesses in how they ‘value’ science in comparison with other types of ‘knowledge.’ What is needed is more discussion of ideology to allow students to see more clearly when TEists exaggerate, when IDists exaggerate, and when evolutionary biologists exaggerate their domains. Why does Crocker not also advocate guarded resistance to some of the extravagant claims made by IDists (e.g. Dembski calls ID “the bridge between science and theology” and Behe speaks of IDs “implications for ALL humane studies,” 1999)? These ideological exaggerations are easily visible to those with a broader view. The double-standard on both/all sides wrt IDism/Evolutionism/Creationism should be made more explicit. Should we expect Crocker to know something about ‘ideology’ given her educational background in natural science? No. PoS & HPS are still highly underdeveloped in N. American preparatory and higher education. Does Crocker support more of them in schools? “science-based reservations about the merits of some aspects of evolutionary theory.” – Crocker Yes, why not? But ID leaders actually *accept* evolutionary theories too (see below). Thus the ‘anti-evolution’ label is only partly true wrt ID. “we need to accept the consensus of the scientific community and, if necessary, change our interpretation of the Bible to fit with the science.” – Crocker Unfortunately, this talk of ‘consensus’ is too thin to have any bite. One needs training in sociology of science (SoS) to discover much that is interesting on this topic. Has Crocker studied SoS? No. “I find TE both academically and theologically frustrating.” – Crocker Me too! ASA is against ‘Total Evolution’ and so is ID. Unfortunately, the two haven’t seemed able (yet) to come together with a stronger position rejecting the ideology of evolutionism and identifying fields and figures who abuse ‘evolutionary theories’ in neighbouring fields (e.g. eVo psych and socio-biology). Both ID and TE could speak more strongly in unison to attack these arrogant encroachments of natural sciences upon morality and ethics. Will effort to do this be made? “One scientist, who believes that Intelligent Design (ID) theory has merit from a scientific viewpoint, identified himself to me with the words, “feels like hostile territory here.” – Crocker Hostile?! Well, yes, there does appear to be some kind of ‘military mentality’ among many IDists, such that they feel they are involved in a ‘culture war’ or ‘revolution’ in the way science, philosophy and theology/religion are viewed in public. I highly doubt that Crocker felt anyone acting ‘hostile’ to her as a person at ASA. She was likely as welcomed there as the next scholar. “For an organization that is alleged to be pro-TE, we sure have elected our share of pro-ID presidents.” – Ted Touché! Will anyone here respond to Ted about this? “working together to convert the Christian world to a belief in evolution” – Crocker ASA is working together for acceptance of biological evolution, not ‘belief’ in biological evolution. Crocker should know this & adjust her language of communication. Not ‘believe’ but ‘acceptance.’ At times like this, she sounds like a YEC! Unfortunately, in this piece Crocker demonstrates lack of understanding in PoS. Someone with PoS knowledge should have edited her piece before it was published at UD. ID relies (read: cannot escape from its history) on a non-scientific (sounds negative) or extra-scientific (sounds positive) foundation. Without that foundation, the ‘science’ of ‘intelligent design’ would be dead in the water (iow, changing the foundations on which natural sciences are built to include ‘Mind/intelligence’). This should be taken as a compliment, i.e. that ID folks are at least AWARE of the non-scientific foundation upon with ID claims to being ‘scientific’ are built. Unfortunately, most ID advocates reading this will take it as an ‘attack’ and grow ‘defensive’. My intention is otherwise than merely to attack. The truth is that within N. American discourses, and English-language discourses generally speaking, you folks have little choice but to be offended, when in fact a compliment was meant. So I hope that saying this will lead some of you to question the ‘American-ness’ of the discourse and see that ‘other’ views are also possible and potentially over-coming of the false dichotomies that have been erected there. ‘BioLogos Foundation’ is one of the most philosophically naïve positions to ‘grace’ the internet in recent years. Ted Davis is listed on their website as ‘one of them.’ Ted is a super guy, a respected scholar and historian. He is not, however, a philosopher. There is not a single philosopher affiliated with BioLogos! The DI, otoh, has employed several people well-versed in philosophy of science (PoS), in addition to simply natural sciences them-selves. For this, I give them credit & estimate them above BioLogos. Crocker shows indirectly how important it is that we listen to psychologists, culture studies theorists, anthropologists, sociologists and philosophers, moderating an end to the ‘natural sciences-only’ discussion that DI is unfortunately promoting by not going further, openly, in-public with its theological agenda. I agree with Crocker about concerns with the level of ‘evolutionism’ in the form of ‘theistic evolutionism’ in ASA. But the fact that Dembski accepts ‘technological evolution’ demonstrates he is likewise confused and contorted about the ‘limits of evolution.’ ID folks are simply not in a position to criticise ASA for its ‘evolutionism’ when ID has not established a clear position for ‘design’ or ‘intelligence’ wrt ideology, science and theology. Come forward with a ‘detection theology’ and we can discuss again ‘the bridge’ that Dembski claims to have already built. Yours sincerely, Dr. GregoryGregory
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
08:06 AM
8
08
06
AM
PDT
Bill, I appreciate your comments. Relative to potential ASA fellows, the case that sticks out most in my mind is more recent than 2006 and involves someone else. I was very disappointed not to have any expression of interest from that person, both at the time credentials were requested and in subsequent conversations with me (since I had made the nomination). I'm sorry that you have let your membership lapse, Bill. As one of the major players in an area broadly related to Christianity and science, your loss is not our gain. I want to comment on this point of Bill's: "The ASA journal is a faith-science journal, and faith-science is not science but faith commenting on science. I have nothing against that genre, but it’s not where the action is in ID." I entirely agree with Bill's assessment of the differences between the ASA journal and those he references implicitly above. Although I can think of a few instances in which the ASA journal has printed very technical articles, there are hardly any in the past couple of decades. That seems appropriate to me: like "American Scientist" or the first part of the journal "Science," our journal is not intended to be a place where people make original *technical* arguments for the first time. (I made an original *historical* argument once in "American Scientist," but did so in a way that was appropriate for their readers.) When I mentioned pro-ID articles in our journal, I was referring to articles that are more philosophical, theological, or historical in nature, not to those that are highly technical in nature. Certainly our journal is not the place where one would normally submit those. And, to that extent, it is certainly true that our journal is not where the action is in ID, any more than it is where the action is in astronomy or microbiology. Bill's point is consistent with what I have heard from numerous other folks in the ID movement--namely, that the ASA is irrelevant to them (or has become irrelevant to them). I'm involved with X or Y and don't have time for Z (what the ASA does); I'm not an historian or a philosopher or a theologian, and I'm more interested in the science (i.e., the technical arguments concerning ID). I have no argument with those who tell me such things; I listen, take note, but recommend no course of action. We all prioritize our time and energy according to our needs and areas of interest. Again, Bill, thank you for the comments. I'll write a separate post about the larger issue related to the paragraph preceding this one.Ted Davis
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT
Why would any one be "worried" Dr Dembski? Unless the "special interest groups" were doing something underhand? If ID theories have merit, then they will be welcomed. If they don't, they will be rejected on that lack of merit. My own view is that they have no merit. Which is a shame, because they are quite cool.Elizabeth Liddle
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
07:00 AM
7
07
00
AM
PDT
Nick Matzke's point is completely a propos, MedsRex. Nick is very knowledgeable about the history of antievolutionism. His point (unless I am badly misreading him) is that concerns about openness to evolution on the part of some ASA members in the 1960s (concerns that were evident since the early 1950s, I would add) led a number of members to sever their ties with the ASA and to form the Creation Research Society in order to advance their views about origins. They felt increasingly unwelcome in the ASA--especially Henry Morris, whose book "The Genesis Flood" received four separate, highly negative reviews in the ASA Journal. The ASA itself had in fact been founded by antievolutionists (although for some reason they did not write an antievolution platform into the by-laws, or we would not be having this conversation today); it split in the 1960s when those of the "young earth" variety saw themselves as increasingly marginalized. At that point, there were numerous TEs in the ASA, but Morris and some others were already very concerned many years earlier, when some "old earth" creationists in the ASA were highly critical of ideas advanced by George McCready Price, the famous young-earth creationist who spent his life popularizing the flood geology of the Adventist prophet Ellen White. Morris' co-author on "The Genesis Flood," John C. Whitcomb, Jr., wrote his doctoral dissertation about how Price's ideas would help us understand Genesis. Both men strongly objected to the "progressive creation" or "concordist" views advanced by Bernard Ramm in his "The Christian View of Science and Scripture," the same book I am about to recommend to Dr. Crocker in a separate posting. In their view (which is still the standard position among leading YEC organizations), even Ramm's very thoughtful OEC position represented a dangerous compromise with unbelief. Thus, they started looking for the exits. As Nick also knows, there were other antievolution organizations in the mid-20th century that also found it impossible to hold themselves together. There were always factions that were unwilling to tolerate other factions: just as this describes large parts of church history quite well, so it also describes the history of antievolution organizations in America. Given all this, then, MedsRex, is Nick entirely off base to see at least some similarity with the conversation in this thread? I see his overall point being what I just wrote at the end of that paragraph above. However, I would add that the ASA really has, in effect, severed its ties with the YEC view, even though we still have some members who hold that view--they know that we are not likely to publish pro-YEC articles in the journal, for example, and they know that Council approved of what Randy Isaac wrote in an op-ed about the YEC view in our journal a couple of years ago (when he said that many proponents of that view did not respect the integrity of science). Randy's opinions about ID, however, are his own, and not those of the organization; Council has never denied Randy the right to speak simply for himself on issues. (For example, when he spoke at the "Vibrant Dance" conference in Texas, on Council instructions he explicitly stated that he spoke only for himself and not as CEO of the ASA. Many of our members were involved with that conference, representing multiple perspectives, and Council wanted to send a clear message that we were not endorsing any specific view expressed by any of our members.) You will not find a similar op-ed about ID in our journal. If I were the CEO of the ASA myself (and I'm not contemplating any such possibility), I would want Council to have the same expectations for me: only rarely would I speak "ex cathedra," so to speak, and otherwise I'd just be one voice among many.Ted Davis
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
Fair enough.Elizabeth Liddle
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
06:26 AM
6
06
26
AM
PDT
Actually, Nick, the thing you should be worried about is ID special interest groups forming within an existing professional society, indeed, the biggest in the world, namely, the IEEE. Stay tuned.William Dembski
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
06:06 AM
6
06
06
AM
PDT
Thanks for illustrating my point, Elizabeth. I have published in the ASA journal and I've published in other journals associated with professional societies of which I am not a member. Merely getting published in a professional society's journal is not reason enough to join or stay. As for good ID papers, I publish them in the peer-reviewed engineering literature, which is the appropriate venue (see the publications page at www.evoinfo.org). The ASA journal is a faith-science journal, and faith-science is not science but faith commenting on science. I have nothing against that genre, but it's not where the action is in ID.William Dembski
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
Of related interest, Just up at ENV:
Dennis Venema - Stephen Meyer Exchange in Perspectives on Science & Christian Faith Available Online Evolution News & Views October 14, 2011 Excerpt: With permission from American Scientific Affiliation (ASA), we are now making publicly available all of the articles published in ASA's journal, Perspectives on Science & Christian Faith (PSCF), by Dennis Venema and Stephen Meyer, in their recent debate over Signature in the Cell. The articles may be found at the following links: Dennis Venema's Original Review of Signature: Seeking a Signature (PSCF, Vol. 62(4):276-283 (December, 2010).) Stephen Meyer's Reply to Venema: Of Molecules and (Straw) Men: Stephen Meyer Responds to Dennis Venema's Review of Signature in the Cell (HTML, PDF) (PSCF, Vol. 63(3):171-182 (September, 2011).) Venema's Surrebuttal to Meyer: Intelligent Design, Abiogenesis, and Learning from History: A Reply to Meyer (PSCF, Vol. 63(3):183-192 (September, 2011).) Stay tuned to ENV as we'll be posting a short follow-up response to Dr. Venema's surrebuttal in the near future. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/dennis_venema_-_stephen_meyer051931.html
Music:
Natalie Grant – Alive http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=F09J9JNU
bornagain77
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
04:00 AM
4
04
00
AM
PDT
Dr Dembski: If, as Ted Davis says, ID proponents rarely submit papers as articles to the ASA journal, or as presentations at the annual meeting, is it surprising that other members express some condescension regarding the scientific integrity of ID? It seems to me that rather than taking your bat home, the answer is simply to submit good ID papers to the journal. No?Elizabeth Liddle
October 15, 2011
October
10
Oct
15
15
2011
02:11 AM
2
02
11
AM
PDT
Cool, nick, great point. . .i guess. So you share nietzsche's view of time and possible events, you know eternal recurrence and all that? Perhaps Groundhog Day is more your thing? Or. . . You seem to like sci-fi, based on your quote, there is a great Supernatural episode that deals with infinite loops. The show is on the CW. . .you should watch it. or to quote the great Matzke: "what the frack" are you talking about? Who gives a poop about "suspected creationists" from the 60s? so Dembski suggests a new Christian based science organization. Do you have a problem with that? Do you predict failure? Should you, a professed agnostic, really give a crap? Did Dembski mention creationism? Speaking of infinite loops: did you know both ID and Evolution have roots in ancient greek culture? So maybe Ol' Nietzsche was on to something.MedsRex
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
11:24 PM
11
11
24
PM
PDT
Does this thread remind anyone of anything?
"In the fall of 1961 Tinkle wrote to eight known or suspected creationists inviting them to join Lammerts and himself in forming an antievolution caucus within the ASA. The eight invitees were Henry M. Morris, Frank Lewis Marsh, Molleurus Couperus, Edwin Y. Monsma, R. Laird Harris, Duane T. Gish (b. 1921), Philip V. Livdahl (b. 1923), and Edward L. Kessel (b. 1904). By late January he had heard from all but Livdahl, a physicist, and Kessel, an entomologist who turned out to be a theistic evolutionist. Of those responding, only Morris had expressed any hesitation. Because he believed that the ASA 'was too permeated with evolutionism ever to be reclaimed,' he urged Tinkle to start a new society." (Ronald Numbers, The Creationists, p. 224)
"All this has happened before and will happen again. Again, again, again..." -- Hybrid Cyclon from Battlestar GalacticaNickMatzke_UD
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
10:57 PM
10
10
57
PM
PDT
correction ; 3. If neo-Darwinism were true we would NOT be able to preform science because of ‘inconsistent identity’ towards absolute truth to form our cognitive faculties.bornagain77
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
08:15 PM
8
08
15
PM
PDT
Kelly, before you go denigrating other 'religions', (though I don't consider Christianity so much a religion as I consider it a relationship with the Creator of the universe and all life in it), perhaps It would be very wise for you to look at the foundation of your own Atheistic 'religion'; Materialism and see how it holds up. Kelly, as quantum mechanics has now clearly shown, you simply have no self-sustaining material basis in which to appeal to as the 'true' ultimate basis of reality. In fact, neo-Darwinism itself is falsified because of this 'failure of materialism' to explain reality.
Falsification Of Neo-Darwinism by Quantum Entanglement/Information https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p8AQgqFqiRQwyaF8t1_CKTPQ9duN8FHU9-pV4oBDOVs/edit?hl=en_US
As well, you quickly and smugly lumped Christianity with astrology not realizing that 1. Science is impossible without God. 2. That Christian Theists overwhelmingly made up the founding fathers of modern science. and 3. If neo-Darwinism were true we would be able to preform science because of 'inconsistent identity' towards absolute truth to form our cognitive faculties.bornagain77
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
08:12 PM
8
08
12
PM
PDT
"For Christians science does not trump the Bible." Perhaps not, but should we not expect science to inform one's interpretation of the Bible, particularly in those instances in which the Bible is not clear or is open to diverse interpretations? That said, I'm talking about real science. So on the other side of the coin I don't think it would make sense for a Christian to jettison the Bible in a knee-jerk fashion, based on some half-baked wild stories that sometimes pass as "science" these days (cough-cough, abiogenesis, for example). There are some real issues that need to be grappled with in terms of bringing faith and science together and it should be done in a thoughtful and careful way.Eric Anderson
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
Ted, Walter Bradley contacted me in January or February of 2006, asking me to collect a CV and other supporting materials to propose me as fellow of the ASA. He didn't spell out a strict deadline, so I sent the supporting materials in, as it turned out, two weeks late. Unfortunately, the deadline was strict and my nomination was put in cold storage -- at least so I understood from Walter, who indicated that my nomination would be delayed a year. All the materials were in place to confirm my nomination -- so Walter gave me to understand. And yet I was never ratified as a fellow, not the following year, not the three additional years that I still remained an ASA member. In any case, what finally got to me with the ASA was not the refused fellowship, but the condescension toward ID, the overwhelming (though not exclusive) view of the leadership that ID has no scientific integrity (I believe that Randy Isaac has said as much), and the sense that ID proponents will always be second-class citizens in the ASA. --BillWilliam Dembski
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
07:15 PM
7
07
15
PM
PDT
Caroline, Given that "creationism" is simply not science, except perhaps when science is defined to include astrology, why should it not be right to deride "creationism" when it attempts to use the cloak of science for unearned respectability?
Therefore, I think I am justified in pointing out that is important to remember that for Christians nothing trumps the Bible, not even science.
So according to you, any Christian who, for example, does not believe in a literal creation and Noah's ark is not actually a Christian? No true Scotsman and all that?kellyhomes
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
Ted, Thank you for your thoughtful and extensive response. You have a great point when you say that the ASA is who their members make them. Personally, I have only been an ASA member for slightly more than a year. However, now that I have scoped out the territory, I am going to take you up on your challenge, and will be submitting papers for presentation at the annual meeting and for publication in Perspectives. And, if I am invited to become a fellow, you can be sure that I will respond. ? You also make the point that the ASA is a place where Christians in science share ideas and fellowship and that one cannot expect to agree with everyone on everything. Point taken. However, it would do much to foster open communication if speakers were instructed that what should be discussed are ideas. Throw away derisive comments about “conservative Christians,” “those ID folks” and “creationists” from the podium do not encourage participation, nor do they promote Christian love. As for ASA being open to the ID viewpoint, perhaps it was. Now, it appears that this commitment is slipping. Perhaps this is the fault of the ASA, perhaps it is the fault of the ID community, most likely it is a mixture of both. But, I would love to see the ASA get back on track as a place where scientific ideas “can be discussed without fear of unjust condemnation” in an atmosphere of “Christian love and concern for truth” and will doing all that I can to assist in that process. Finally, the ASA website specifies that members share a common belief in more than the Apostles and Nicene creed. Namely, they “accept the divine inspiration, trustworthiness and authority of the Bible in matters of faith and conduct.” Therefore, I think I am justified in pointing out that is important to remember that for Christians nothing trumps the Bible, not even science.Caroline Crocker
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
Finally, as for the identity and mission of the ASA, they are very clearly stated here: http://www.asa3.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76&Itemid=62 I am concerned about what Dr. Crocker reports, relative to how she felt about collegiality and fellowship at our meeting; that might touch on our commitment to "fear of unjust condemnation" for discussing a particular view. (However, she is not hesitant above to respond perhaps with implicit condemnation of some views she heard voiced by others.) I am not concerned about our identity per se, however. We have changed our foundational statements more than once in our history, but our current statement has been operative for many years--and I believe it is the best one we have had, with its explicit reference to the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds as expressing our understanding of Christian beliefs. Those creeds are silent on a lot of issues, including many of the things that concern Dr. Crocker above. Absolutely they are silent about origins issues, except for their clear affirmation of belief in the ultimate divine origin of all things--a belief that is perfectly compatible with either TE or ID.Ted Davis
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT
Now, as for the larger ID/TE issue, relative to the ASA, I have some things that need to be said, and this is a good place to say them. I have heard many ID supporters (some who are ASA members and many who are not) say that the ASA is a TE organization that is unfriendly to ID. A few isolated facts might be seen to support that conclusion--a given article or review from our journal or web site, or a particular comment in a session at our annual meeting, or something that was said in a conversation at a meeting. I won't list any examples of such, but I have no doubt that there are some. (I also have no doubt that others, including some here, have said highly negative things about either the ASA as an organization or about specific members in connection with the ASA. On at least two occasions, highly derogatory language was aimed in my direction here at UD.) As far as the ASA as an organization is concerned, let me review some facts--all of them easily verified. (1) Our refereed journal (the oldest science & religion journal in the USA), Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, frequently publishes articles taking a pro-ID stance. I challenge anyone to take a period of several consecutive years (somewhere in the past 20 years), count the number of articles that favor ID (keeping in mind that a large number of articles are entirely unrelated to ID), and compare that number with any other refereed journal of their choice. Unless you pick a journal that is intended specifically to promote ID, I bet we do pretty darn well. Nevertheless, well known proponents of ID rarely submit papers to our journal, despite the fact that we do publish pro-ID articles. (2) Most of the papers submitted for our annual meeting -- and that process is always open to anyone -- end up on the program somewhere. Not a large percentage are rejected (unlike our journal, which is pretty selective, the annual meeting program process is not very selective). Most pro-ID papers are accepted. If the number of such papers on the program in any given year is low, it almost certainly means that only a few such papers were submitted. I have been involved in setting the program several times, and the information in this paragraph accurately describes all of those years. (3) ASA Council members, who are elected by the whole membership, have included a number of well known ID supporters in the past several years: Walter Bradley, Bob Kaita (who will be VP next April), and Ken Touryan all come to mind. In addition, another current council member is a Southern Baptist theologian (Hal Poe). There has been no effort to exclude pro-ID members from becoming Council members. For an organization that is alleged to be pro-TE, we sure have elected our share of pro-ID presidents. I challenge anyone to find a comparable degree of open-mindedness elsewhere. (4) ASA Council members must (according to our own by-laws) be Fellows fist. To become a Fellow, a current Fellow must nominate a person; that person must then respond to a request to confirm their interest in being named a Fellow and send in some information (basically a short c.v. and some other information); and, the current Fellows must then affirm that person by voting for them on a ballot they are sent. Sometimes people whose names are put forth do not respond to the request for information. This happens with at least one person in most years, and I can recall one year in which 3 people did not respond. I will now share a piece of information that has not been publicly shared before: during my time on Council, I placed in nomination as Fellows multiple people who support ID, yet the two most prominent names did not confirm their interest and their names did not move forward. Everyone here would know those names, but I will have to keep you guessing about their specific identities. So, what exactly am I saying? Simply this: relative to ID and TE, the ASA is what its members make it. I am (as you all know) not an ID proponent myself (although I am not without interest in ID or without sympathy for aspects of ID), but I always acted to keep the ASA what it has always been: an open forum on issues related to science and Christianity. I cannot submit papers to our journal or to the annual meeting on behalf of others; I cannot respond to requests for information on behalf of others. Here is my frank advice to anyone within the ASA who believes that we are unfriendly to ID: look in the mirror. Have you submitted a top-notch paper to our journal? have you submitted a decent proposal for a paper at our annual meeting? did you respond to a request to confirm a nomination to be an ASA Fellow? We are who our members make us. What more can I say?Ted Davis
October 14, 2011
October
10
Oct
14
14
2011
02:04 PM
2
02
04
PM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply