Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is the evolution debate becoming “much more civil and thoughtful”?

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From Fred Reed, an “evolution skeptic” at UNZ:

Recently I wrote a column about the theory of Intelligent Design, which holds that that life, both in its origins and its changes over time, are the result of design instead of chance. Several hundred comments and emails arrived, more than I could read. This was not surprising as there seems to be considerable public interest in the question, while a virulent political correctness prevents discussion in most forums. In particular the major media prevent mention of Intelligent Design except in derogatory terms.

Interesting to me at any rate was that the tone of response was much more civil and thoughtful than it was say, a decade ago.

That may partly be because so many conundrums of evolution are now being discussed in the science literature that being a troll bawling up a storm somewhere isn’t a credential anymore. (See links below.)

To judge by my mail, I suspect that many people, thanks to popular television, think of mutations as major changes that just happen, such perhaps as the rhino’s horn appearing all at once . In fact mutations are changes in the nucleotide sequence of DNA that may produce a new protein. The mathematical likelihood of getting multiple mutations that just happen to engender a complex result is essentially zero. The mathematics is clear but not easily explained to a television audience, no matter how intelligent.

In many years of writing columns, I have learned that the tenacity of attachment to emotionally important ideas is nearly infinite. This is as true of evolutionists as it is of Christians, the politically ardent, or the rabidly patriotic. Things that do not fit the belief are just ignored, forbidden, or explained away by wishful thinking. More.

But eventually, we need a serious discussion.

Hat tip: Ken Francis

See also: Replication failures of Darwinian sexual selection openly discussed at The Scientist. It’s as if evolutionary biologists are beginning to take some of the problems of Darwinism seriously enough to discuss them openly, as failures in research. In this case, the failure of claims for sexual selection (females drive evolution by choosing the fittest mates) is openly publicized. This is neck and neck with the Nature review of The Tangled Tree: A Radical New History of Life, one wonders, are the staff at The Scientist competing with the staff at Nature to be first out of Darwin’s collapsing house of cards?

and

At Nature: New evolution book represents a “radical” new perspective. Including things you didn’t know about Archaea discoverer, Carl Woese. It’s true. Woese, the first to recognize the kingdom of life, the Archaea, was not a Darwinist and thought there is a deity. Prediction: Soon only cranks will be Darwinists.

Comments
ET: "earth to timothta- context is important" Yes it is. I just provided you with some.timothya
August 5, 2018
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earth to timothta- context is importantET
August 5, 2018
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ET: "Bob O’H is confused. It is always the evos that start the belligerence, nonsense and lies. Always. And I am more than happy to mix it up with them because bullies only understand one way." A small sample of counterfactuals (just from the last month): https://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/accent/from-the-pulpit-here-s-a-cure-for-school-shootings/article_b331b62e-96ce-11e8-adcd-c3b4d6d4922b.html http://www.altoonamirror.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/2018/07/theory-of-evolution-can-be-denied/ http://www.dailypostathenian.com/community/religion/article_fcc6034b-27ba-5799-96cc-c8bf026a24ed.html https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/western-mail-letters-saturday-july-14939904 https://www.morrowcountysentinel.com/news/20487/pastor-column-bible-tells-truth-about-dinosaurstimothya
August 5, 2018
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Kairosfocus: "PS: Let us not forget that Cases White and Yellow led Hitler and OKW to imagine that Russia could be a pushover. Big mistake. A word to those imagining that evolutionary materialistic scientism has become invincible." Yep. Godwin's Rule applies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law?wprov=sfla1timothya
August 5, 2018
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Over on Joshua Swamidass's new forum it is all civil and thoughtful as long as you agree with their blatant misrepresentations of ID, caricatures of IC and a cartoon version of evolution. The cartoon version of evolution denies that modern evolution posits blind and mindless processes and includes telic processes. Show them evidence otherwise and it either gets ignored or you get a hand-wave, jedi style. They still have no idea that ID is OK with telic evolutionary processes. And they think if they show a simple IC system evolving then all IC is refuted. Yet they don't understand that IC is an argument against blind watchmaker evolution. Josh's "evidence" that chimps and humans share a common ancestor is that rats and mice share one and they are more genetically different than chimps and humans. He cannot understand how that can be even though evolution by design with recombination can easily explain the genetics. He just ignores that. Disagree and argue against them at your own peril. And when you try to correct blatant misrepresentations and people putting words in your mouth you will be heavily moderated.ET
August 5, 2018
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Bob O'H is confused. It is always the evos that start the belligerence, nonsense and lies. Always. And I am more than happy to mix it up with them because bullies only understand one way.ET
August 5, 2018
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Earth to Amblky- There isn't anything in peer-review that supports blind watchmaker evolution. The evos lied at the Dover trial and the ignorant judge was fooled by a literature bluffET
August 5, 2018
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...you can name two new followers and producing papers (in a hosue-journal…) at the rate you’d expect for a PhD student. And you think things ahve got better in that time?
The DI has a list of scientists. More than two. I hadn't checked it in a long time - includes scientists now from 14 countries which is a dozen more than 10 years ago. Peer reviewed papers - the quantity has increased. I believe at Dover it was claimed that there were none.
At the time of Dover Dembski was talking evolutionary simply not existing in 10 years.
I think he was proven right about that.Silver Asiatic
August 5, 2018
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So, if by “dead” you mean “attracting competent and respected scientists” and “being confirmed continually with failures in evolutionary claims”, then yes again. You’re quite right.
I mean... you are talking about two people. At the time of Dover Dembski was talking evolutionary simply not existing in 10 years. 10 years late you can name two new followers and producing papers (in a hosue-journal...) at the rate you'd expect for a PhD student. And you think things ahve got better in that time?Amblyrhynchus
August 5, 2018
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This is one of the most mind-blowing things I’ve read here.
I guess I really shocked you with that.
Since Dover the ID-as-a-science claim has all but died.
If by "died" you mean "rendered illegal" or "opposed with irrational hostility and threats" then yes. Dead indeed. Congratulations. But nobody has refuted Behe's or Meyer's work. We just saw a prominent scientist from Germany become an advocate of ID. That wasn't supposed to happen, remember? ID is just an American phenomenon for Bible creationists, supposedly. How about "distinguished Finnish bioengineer Matti Leisola" - just published a book this year advocating "ID as science". So, if by "dead" you mean "attracting competent and respected scientists" and "being confirmed continually with failures in evolutionary claims", then yes again. You're quite right.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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PS: Let us not forget that Cases White and Yellow led Hitler and OKW to imagine that Russia could be a pushover. Big mistake. A word to those imagining that evolutionary materialistic scientism has become invincible.kairosfocus
August 4, 2018
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Ambly, the design inference on empirically tested, reliable sign is scientific or else "scientific" has been reduced to being a meaningless ideological term assigned by power of might and manipulation. And, beyond reasonable dispute, the Dover decision that the design inference on sign was stealth creationism was a kangaroo court imposition by way of a slightly modified copy-paste from ideologically driven parties without due regard to facts and merits. That the deceitful, disgraceful film Inherit the Wind seemed to have influenced the judge just multiplies the long-term discredit that marks that seemingly cheap victory for atheistical evolutionary materialistic scientism and its enablers or fellow travellers. Also, if you imply that naturalism [= a priori evolutionary materialism] obtains by default, delimiting reality, you have begged worldview level questions that it is no business of science to beg. KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2018
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BA77, Berlinski's comment goes to the heart of the matter as it brings out the logic of being and the import that we necessarily have a world of abstract entities. KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2018
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BO'H: I think you seriously need to take a look at the penumbra of attack sites. KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2018
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I think back to Kitzmiller v. Dover, 13 years ago. I think the trial and results would be quite a lot different now.
This is one of the most mind-blowing things I've read here. The key question in the Dover trial was whether ID was science that could be uncoupled from creationism. Since Dover the ID-as-a-science claim has all but died. The movements potemkin journal has published only a little more than one paper per year, about the productivity you'd expect from a PhD student in evolutionary biology. So, it's fairly staggering to imagine someone has watched all this happen and thinks things have got better for ID over that time.Amblyrhynchus
August 4, 2018
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Then I am intelligent! :-)jdk
August 4, 2018
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jdk
However, I don’t think that is necessarily correlated with intelligence or knowledge.
Here is a rule I go by: "Being intelligent means doing smart things. Being unintelligent means doing stupid things." With that in mind, I'd say acceptance and attempting to live by, the golden rule, is correlated with intelligence.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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Having discussions that are "much more civil" is not necessarily a good thing by itself. The old days may have been more honest and open. Retreating to echo-chambers can lead to complacency. Peace at all costs is not the goal. We should be interested in the truth, and we should pursue it continually, and change ourselves to accept it, regardless of how difficult that may be. There cannot be peace between blind-evolution and design. Conversations can be civil, and that is good, but not if it covers over differences and reaches compromises (as theistic evolution attempts).Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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Bob - but just in terms of sheer quantity, I'd think evolutionists outnumber IDists. So even if there were equal proportions of the uncivil in each group - the total numbers would be heavily weighted to evolution having the majority of uncivil behaviors. This site alone is not a good place to measure the whole debate. The same is probably true for Pharyngula or Panda's Thumb, etc.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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SA @ 4 - I know there are a lot of people on both side who are uncivil, and that's been the case for as long as I've been following the debates. Certainly on this site, my impression is that most of the incivility has come from the ID side (we can go back to some of the comments of DaveScot, for example), but it was very different on Pharyngula.Bob O'H
August 4, 2018
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Lots of people accept the golden rule as a principle worth living by - I certainly do. However, I don't think that is necessarily correlated with intelligence or knowledge.jdk
August 4, 2018
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jdk, If you don’t have an objective moral standard (the “golden rule’) that’s a problem.john_a_designer
August 4, 2018
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And exactly how do you tell which side of an argument has the people who are "not very intelligent, well informed nor ethically or intellectually honest."?jdk
August 4, 2018
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The problem is that the internet has been taken over by trolls who are not very intelligent, well informed nor ethically or intellectually honest. How can you reason with such people? I can’t, which is why I engage them as little as possible. That’s not civility; that’s giving in and giving up because of frustration.john_a_designer
August 4, 2018
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daveS, since the atheistic worldview denies that any real meaning, purpose and value, exists for life,,,
Atheistic Materialism vs Meaning, Value, and Purpose in Our Lives https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqUxBSbFhog Neuroscientist: Free will is an illusion but we should believe we have it - July 1, 2018 Excerpt: "To give yet another example, is there meaning in life? From a purely abstract philosophical perspective, I would have to say no. There is no objective source of meaning. But from a practical point of view I say – humans have a need for meaning, and we can make our own meaning in life. Sure, it’s subjective, but so what?" - Steven Novella https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/neuroscientist-free-will-is-an-illusion-but-we-should-believe-we-have-it/ So Novella claims he has no free will and that his life has no meaning but 'he chooses' to live his life as if he had free will and as if his life had meaning? (refutation of those beliefs, July 2018) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/neuroscientist-free-will-is-an-illusion-but-we-should-believe-we-have-it/#comment-661132
,,, since the atheistic worldview denies that any real meaning, purpose and value, exists for life,,, I've often wondered why militant atheists, such as yourself, are so motivated to promote their atheistic worldview to the rest of us and/or to trash Christianity in particular. Exactly what is the purpose of you, and other atheists, to devote so much of your blogging time on the internet, to something that, according to your very own worldview, does not really even matter in the end? I can see where Christianity can ground such motivation to spread the 'good news' to people that life is not an accident and that life does not end at the grave, but I can find no such motivation within atheism to spread the 'bad news' that life is purposeless and meaningless. Perhaps you can help me understand, what is the payoff for you personally to continue, so fervently, to promote your 'meaningless' atheism to the rest of us?
"There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again." - A.Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10
Verse:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
bornagain77
August 4, 2018
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daveS Good points - I agree. The clash between atheists and creationists was very heated 10 years ago. The two groups had never come into that kind of close contact before. Agreed also about the difference with youngish adults. A lot of the argumentation of the past came from pre-internet adults who were more "literate" - in a book culture, than today. There are "debates" of sorts in the comment areas of Amazon.com or YouTube or news sites. There's still a lot of hostility from pro and anti-ID/Evolution sides. Perhaps evolutionists will say that ID, as a threat, was exaggerated. They've dismissed us. We say something similar - that evolution is dying. I think back to Kitzmiller v. Dover, 13 years ago. I think the trial and results would be quite a lot different now.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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daveS, True. It would be interesting to see the age distribution on sites and forums like this. But we'd probably need something to compare it to.Mung
August 4, 2018
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Mung, Yes, those too. One thing I didn't mention explicitly: I gather young-ish adults spend quite a bit of time binge-watching shows, facebooking, instagramming, and whatever else. 10--20 years ago, there wasn't as much "content" of that sort to consume. That leaves less time for things such as internet debates.daveS
August 4, 2018
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Perhaps people realize no one is going to change their mind. Or that ID isn't just the same as Young Earth Creationism.Mung
August 4, 2018
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Interesting to me at any rate was that the tone of response was much more civil and thoughtful than it was say, a decade ago.
I wonder if the changing internet landscape has something to do with this? I literally _never_ discuss my opinions about ID, evolution, creation, or religion with anyone in real life. Some of the internet venues that used to host in-depth debates on ID/evolution/creation no longer exist. This site is the only one I visit these days. Perhaps debating these issues is just not as popular as it once was, and therefore people just don't get as worked up about it as they did ~10 years ago? Or maybe they "spend" their incivility elsewhere.daveS
August 4, 2018
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