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Ken Miller in Birmingham

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Noted Brown University biologist and slayer of windmills, Kenneth Miller, came to Birmingham, Alabama, on Thursday November 5. The room was packed with what seemed to be about 200 (mostly students and some faculty). Overall, Miller displayed the affable but subliminally arrogant attitude I’ve come to expect in some academics. Miller began by giving a long list of his publications interspersed along with some obligatory self-deprecating humor, the apparent take-home message being “look at what a smart and prolific boy I am.” He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.” After giving a wholly inaccurate definition of ID as the idea that “design in the form of outside intelligent intervention is required to account for the origin of living things,” he launched into the bulk of his lecture most of which simply gave examples of common descent as “proof” of Darwinian evolution.  I must say that I was surprised by the degree to which Miller absolutely savaged ID. It’s not that he simply disagrees with ID, the substance of his message was that ID is a creationist group (no one was mentioned by name) with the Discovery Institute as its front organization working (in his words) “against scientific rationality.” The thrust of his ID comments were wholly denigrating and dismissive.  Miller later admitted that evolution was the product of “design in nature” in search of “adaptive spaces.” His discussion of design was frankly bizarre; at times he almost sounded like a Gaia proponent—I couldn’t figure out if by design he meant just some sort of unfolding or self-direction or if “design” was somehow synonymous with natural selection. The entire presentation in this regard was quite fuzzy.  There was a lot of conflation of concepts—my personal favorite being his conflation of evolution, genetics, and Gregor Mendel. Anyone listening to Miller on this would have thought that Mendel was simply carrying Darwin’s ideas forward; he did not, of course, point out that Darwin’s adherence to pangenesis and the notion of inheritance of acquired characteristics was quite different from that of Mendel. The rest was pretty predictable.

I finally did get to ask Miller a question. It was the second to last one, and Miller was pretty euphoric having hit a series of Q & A home runs from softballs pitched at T-ball speeds mostly by students. The good thing was that by the time I got to pose my question a lot of questioners had prefaced their questions with comments (mostly “thank you, thank you, for supporting theism and science,” “oh what an important struggle we have before us promoting good science, your presentation was marvelous,” etc., etc.). I started by saying that I sincerely wished that this country could get away from this overly simplistic “evolution versus creation” discourse as unhistorical and unhelpful. We talk about evolution as though Wallace and Mivart never existed. Then I said, “Dr. Miller, as you well know, Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of natural selection, broke with Darwin over the role of natural selection in creating the human mind. Wallace didn’t think it could account for it; Mivart agreed. Now these objections are still with us today. They haven’t gone away. Surely you’re familiar with the April issue of Nature in which Bolhuis and Wynne asked, ‘Can evolution explain how minds work?’. Don’t we have an educational obligation to give the WHOLE story of evolution? I mean we talk about evolution as if it was simply the story of Darwin and science on the march when, if fact, many of the original objections raised to his theory remain today. This is Whiggish history of the worst kind! How can we get past this and tell the more complete and accurate story of evolution? ” Miller replied by nodding in apparent approval, which seemed inappropriate given his presentation, but then simply didn’t answer the question. The upshot of his reply was to utter some vague generalizations about the Templeton Foundation and that he was working with them on this very thing. Huh??

Well that’s my report. I must say Miller is an engaging and powerful speaker. His points are persuasive to the uninformed and although I have no objection to his having his say in a free markeplace of ideas, I suspect that he does considerable intellectual damage where ever he goes.

Comments
“Nested hierarcvhies demand that the defining characteristics be both immutable and additive.” Mustela Nivalis:
Continuing to repeat an incorrect assertion does not make it more correct.
It is not incorrect. Just because you are ignorant of nested hierarchies does not make what I say incorrect. I have provided a reference to support my claims. You have nothing but more bald assertions. “Also the MET does not predict a nested hierarchy.”
Yes, it does, as I believe has been pointed out to you before by other posters.
I have provided more than enough reasons why it does not. Dr Denton has also done so. No one has bothered countering those with anything. The MET can only "predict" change and/ or stasis. Once again- Transitional forms, by their very definition, would violate a nested hierarchy which demands distinct categories.
Nested and non-nested hierarchies: nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels.
IOW if the defining traits are not immutable and additive then you lose containment. Just look at taxonomy- Animal Kingdom has a set of definitions. All Phyla under the Animal Kingdom have that set of definitions PLUS additional definitions which sets them apart from the other Phyla. Each Class under each Phyla has that PLUS additional definitions which sets them apart. And so on down to the species.Joseph
November 13, 2009
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Mustela, You wrote:
Do you for one moment think Lenski’s “cuddled bacteria” are going to pass a fitness test against the parent stock? If the fitness test is ability to survive in a low glucose, high citrate environment, then yes.
You are correct. A perusal of Figure 2 in the Lenski paper clearly shows a fitness increase over the ancestral stock. The legend says:
Green squares show the improvement of this population's mean fitness relative to the ancestor over time, and the green curve is a hyperbolic plus linear fit of this trajectory
Dave Wisker
November 13, 2009
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bornagain77 at 227, Mustela, Methinks you are easily led astray, Methinks you are not sufficiently educated in science to make the kinds of pronouncements you regularly do here, but let's stick to the issues. Do you for one moment think Lenski’s “cuddled bacteria” are going to pass a fitness test against the parent stock? If the fitness test is ability to survive in a low glucose, high citrate environment, then yes. Thus if they cannot gain even a minimal amount of functional complexity Please define "functional complexity" mathematically rigorously and show how it can be calculated for the relevant parts of the e. coli genome and we can continue the discussion. to pass the fitness test, why in the world would you think getting “cuddled bacteria getting “fatter” was absolute proof of evolution? I was responding to your earlier claims. Before we go down a rathole, please clarify your views for me (I'm quite sincere, I am not positive about what you are claiming and I don't want to put words in your mouth): Are you asserting that the mechanisms identified by modern evolutionary theory are incapable of generating any new characteristics under any circumstances?Mustela Nivalis
November 13, 2009
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Here is another for you Mustela: Evolution vs. Functional Proteins - Doug Axe - Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4FvdOxIDfUbornagain77
November 13, 2009
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Mustela: This video may give you a much needed hint as to what you are up against in so far as gaining even a trivial amount of functional complexity: Evolution vs ATP Synthase - Molecular Machine - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE3QJMI-ljc a few more points for you to consider: Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNi0YXYadg0 Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe." Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Bacterial Flagella - A Paradigm for Design - Scott Minnich - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N949Ysm0KTY http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/92 Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUeCgTN7pOobornagain77
November 13, 2009
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Mustela, Methinks you are easily led astray, Do you for one moment think Lenski's "cuddled bacteria" are going to pass a fitness test against the parent stock? I certainly hope you are not that detached from reality! Thus if they cannot gain even a minimal amount of functional complexity to pass the fitness test, why in the world would you think getting "cuddled bacteria getting "fatter" was absolute proof of evolution? It is downhill in my book! And you are way off base as far as maintaining scientific integrity! But Hey If you just got to believe your great great grand pappy was a mud-puddle go ahead and believe it, just do not insult me by saying you are being honest in doing so! Do you really want to go into the fossil record?bornagain77
November 13, 2009
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bornagain77 at 222, Gene Duplication and Lenski? Well You may want to dig a little deeper because you are severely wanting for proof! Your claim at 218 was that "the loss of morphological traits over time, for all organisms found in the fossil record, was so consistent that is was made into a scientific 'law'". This is absurd on its face because the fossil record shows exactly the opposite. Lenski's experiments show very clearly that new characteristics can be acquired via the mechanisms of modern evolutionary theory. Not only did one of his populations acquire the ability to digest citrate, the individuals in each population became larger over generations. That's definitely a morphological change. Your claim that evolutionary mechanisms cannot add characteristics is absolutely false.Mustela Nivalis
November 13, 2009
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Joseph at 220, "I presume you are referring to the fact that observed inheritance hierarchies are nested. Why would a nested inheritance hierarchy require those two features? It’s perfectly possible for characteristics to be added, modified, or deleted within a nested inheritance hierarchy. What are you talking about?" Nested hierarchies. What are you talking about? "If a defining characteristic is lost so is the required containment." You seem to misunderstand the nature of the nested inheritance hierarchy predicted by modern evolutionary theory. As I noted, the defining characteristic of that nested inheritance hierarchy is that the changes between one node and the next will be incremental. Those changes are not purely additive nor are “characteristics” that appear as the result of those (genetic) changes immutable. "Nested hierarcvhies demand that the defining characteristics be both immutable and additive." Continuing to repeat an incorrect assertion does not make it more correct. "Without that you don’t get a nested hierarchy." Of course you do. That's exactly what we observe in nature. "Also the MET does not predict a nested hierarchy." Yes, it does, as I believe has been pointed out to you before by other posters. MET predicts that any inheritance hierarchies that result from evolutionary mechanisms will be nested. Empirical evidence shows this to be the case. Moreover, the nested hierarchies are the same for all genetic characteristics. That is a remarkably powerful confirmation of MET.Mustela Nivalis
November 13, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis, We are well aware of Allen MacNeill's 47+ engines of variation and they all operate but from what I understand there is only speculative evidence that they ever had any major effect. In other words evolutionary biologist can only point to a small hand full of genes that might have formed this way out of the hundreds of thousands of genes. They make interesting cases and if you and others believe this is in fact how naturalistic processes have operated, present the case histories for the various genes. There should be enough to fill up a 10,000 page book but all we are presented with is the speculation and a couple examples. Do you think we would be here having this discussion if the people who detest ID had such information. And there is a vast army that intensely dislikes us. There would be a line tens of miles long waiting their turn to show us up and in reality if they had anything, people like Behe, Dembski, Meyer, Johnson etc would have retired from this debate long ago and it would be just nut jobs on this site. Allen MacNeill's colleague and friend, Will Provine who is a respected evolutionary biologist admitted that evolutionary biology was based on faith. Use your head and ask why you are the one here to inform us of what is the answer they have been seeking for all this years. Don't you see the irony in all this. No one in the upper echelons can write a book that explains it. Not Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, Stephen Gould, Henry Gee and certainly not Charles Darwin. But here you are, defender of the faith, taking us on. Doesn't that tell you something.jerry
November 13, 2009
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Gene Duplication is a joke as well Mustela: Sometimes a materialist will say, "gene duplication is the real engine of evolution" which generates the new functional information in molecular biology. Due to the level of complexity being dealt with in molecular biology, they were able to, somewhat, hide behind this smokescreen for a while. Yet now that real evidence is coming in, they are brutally betrayed by the evidence once again. The malaria parasite, due to its comparatively enormous population size, has in 1 year more mutation/duplication/selection events than all mammal lineages have had in the entire +100 million years they have been in the fossil record. Moreover, since single cell organisms and viruses replicate, and mutate/duplicate, far more quickly than multi-cellular life-forms can, scientists can do experiments on single celled organisms and viruses to see what we can actually expect to happen over millions of years for mammals with far smaller population sizes. Malaria and AIDS are among the largest real world tests that can be performed to see if evolutionary presumptions are true. Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution "Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell--both ones we've discovered so far and ones we haven't--at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It's critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing--neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered--was of much use." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/swine_flu_viruses_and_the_edge.html Behe and Snoke go even further in addressing the Gene Duplication scenario in this following study: Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues: Michael J. Behe and David W. Snoke Excerpt: We conclude that, in general, to be fixed in 10^8 generations, the production of novel protein features that require the participation of two or more amino acid residues simply by multiple point mutations in duplicated genes would entail population sizes of no less than 10^9.,,,The fact that very large population sizes—10^9 or greater—are required to build even a minimal [multi-residue] feature requiring two nucleotide alterations within 10^8 generations by the processes described in our model, and that enormous population sizes are required for more complex features or shorter times, seems to indicate that the mechanism of gene duplication and point mutation alone would be ineffective, at least for multicellular diploid species, because few multicellular species reach the required population sizes. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2286568 The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories, Stephen C. Meyer, 2004 ,,,the probability of randomly assembling (or “finding,” in the previous sense) a functional sequence (for a duplicate gene) is extremely small. http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2177 Jonathan Wells Hits an Evolutionary Nerve: "duplicating a gene doesn’t increase information content any more than photocopying a paper increases its information content." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/jonathan_wells_hits_an_evoluti.html#more "If you count copies as new information, you must have a hard time with plagiarism in your classes. All that the miscreant students would have to say is "It's just like gene duplication. Plagiarism is new information -- you said so on your blog!"" Professor of Neurosurgery Michael Egnor in a response to P.Z. Myers Does Gene Duplication Increase Information Content? "merely citing gene duplication does not help one understand how Darwinian evolution can produce new genetic information." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/09/a_response_to_dr_dawkins_infor.html “The theory of gene duplication in its present form is unable to account for the origin of new genetic information” Ray Bohlin, (PhD. in molecular and cell biology) “Evolution through random duplications”... While it sounds quite sophisticated and respectable, it does not withstand honest and critical assessment” John C. Sanford; Genetic Entropy 2005 Sanford Genetic Entropy Polyploidy - (Gene Duplication Fallacies) http://livinglove.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/appendix4-pg2.pdf http://livinglove.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/appendix4-pg3.pdf This following paper reveals that there is a "cost" to duplicate genes that further precludes the scenario from being plausible: Experimental Evolution of Gene Duplicates in a Bacterial Plasmid Model Excerpt: In a striking contradiction to our model, no such conditions were found. The fitness cost of carrying both plasmids increased dramatically as antibiotic levels were raised, and either the wild-type plasmid was lost or the cells did not grow. This study highlights the importance of the cost of duplicate genes and the quantitative nature of the tradeoff in the evolution of gene duplication through functional divergence. http://www.springerlink.com/content/vp471464014664w8/bornagain77
November 13, 2009
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Mustela, Gene Duplication and Lenski? Well You may want to dig a little deeper because you are severely wanting for proof! This following article refutes Lenski's supposed "evolution" of the citrate ability for the E-Coli bacteria after 20,000 generations of the E-Coli: Multiple Mutations Needed for E. Coli - Michael Behe Excerpt: As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1) Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.),,, If Lenski’s results are about the best we've seen evolution do, then there's no reason to believe evolution could produce many of the complex biological features we see in the cell. http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3U696N278Z93O Upon closer inspection, it seems Lenski's "cuddled" E. coli are actually headed for "genetic meltdown" instead of evolving into something better. New Work by Richard Lenski: Excerpt: Interestingly, in this paper they report that the E. coli strain became a “mutator.” That means it lost at least some of its ability to repair its DNA, so mutations are accumulating now at a rate about seventy times faster than normal. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/new_work_by_richard_lenski.html Mustela , Do you think Lenski will mind if I am using his experiment for proof of Genetic Entropy?bornagain77
November 13, 2009
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The most straightforward way is a gene duplication followed by a mutation (point, frame shift, etc.) to one of the duplicates.
And what is the evidence that gene dupications are random and what is the evidence they can do what you hope they can? IOW what is the evidence that Allen's described mechanisms can produce novel protein machinery and novel body plans? And Lenski showed that E coli can "evolve" into E coli. You need much, much more than that.Joseph
November 13, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis
I presume you are referring to the fact that observed inheritance hierarchies are nested. Why would a nested inheritance hierarchy require those two features? It’s perfectly possible for characteristics to be added, modified, or deleted within a nested inheritance hierarchy.
What are you talking about? If a defining characteristic is lost so is the required containment.
The defining characteristic of the nested hierarchy predicted by modern evolutionary theory is that the changes between one node and the next will be incremental. Those changes are not purely additive nor are “characteristics” that appear as the result of those (genetic) changes immutable.
Nested hierarcvhies demand that the defining characteristics be both immutable and additive. Without that you don't get a nested hierarchy. Also the MET does not predict a nested hierarchy. Mechanisms that do not have a pattern other than "survival" do not construct patterns such a nested hierarchies. There isn't expectations for such processes.Joseph
November 13, 2009
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bornagain77 at 218, "It’s perfectly possible for characteristics to be added, modified, or deleted within a nested inheritance hierarchy." Well Mustela just how possible is it for characteristics to be added ? The most straightforward way is a gene duplication followed by a mutation (point, frame shift, etc.) to one of the duplicates. Such mutations are observed in the lab and in nature and they clearly add variability that can be operated on by natural selection. Allen MacNeill's excellent list of 47+ sources of heritable variation shows many other mechanisms. I find your question rather confusing, given that new characteristics are rather routinely observed evolving via known evolutionary mechanisms. I recommend Richard Lenski's experiments with e. coli as just one example.Mustela Nivalis
November 12, 2009
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Mustela states:
"It’s perfectly possible for characteristics to be added, modified, or deleted within a nested inheritance hierarchy."
Well Mustela just how possible is it for characteristics to be added ? the loss of morphological traits over time, for all organisms found in the fossil record, was so consistent that is was made into a scientific "law": Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes: Excerpt: "As the history of animal life was traced in the fossil record during the 19th century, it was observed that once an anatomical feature was lost in the course of evolution it never staged a return. This observation became canonized as Dollo's law, after its propounder, and is taken as a general statement that evolution is irreversible." http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html A general rule of thumb for the "Deterioration/Genetic Entropy" of Dollo's Law as it applies to the fossil record is found here: Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes ABSTRACT Dollo's law, the concept that evolution is not substantively reversible, implies that the degradation of genetic information is sufficiently fast that genes or developmental pathways released from selective pressure will rapidly become nonfunctional. Using empirical data to assess the rate of loss of coding information in genes for proteins with varying degrees of tolerance to mutational change, we show that, in fact, there is a significant probability over evolutionary time scales of 0.5-6 million years for successful reactivation of silenced genes or "lost" developmental programs. Conversely, the reactivation of long (>10 million years)-unexpressed genes and dormant developmental pathways is not possible unless function is maintained by other selective constraints; http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html Dollo's Law was further verified to the molecular level here: Dollo’s law, the symmetry of time, and the edge of evolution - Michael Behe Excerpt: We predict that future investigations, like ours, will support a molecular version of Dollo's law: ,,, Dr. Behe comments on the finding of the study, "The old, organismal, time-asymmetric Dollo’s law supposedly blocked off just the past to Darwinian processes, for arbitrary reasons. A Dollo’s law in the molecular sense of Bridgham et al (2009), however, is time-symmetric. A time-symmetric law will substantially block both the past and the future,". http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/dollos_law_the_symmetry_of_tim.html The following article is important in that it shows the principle of Genetic Entropy being obeyed in the fossil record by Trilobites, over the 270 million year history of their life on earth (Note: Trilobites are one of the most prolific "kinds" found in the fossil record with an extensive worldwide distribution. They appeared abruptly at the base of the Cambrian explosion with no evidence of transmutation from the "simple" creatures that preceded them, nor is there any evidence they ever produced anything else besides other trilobites during the entire time they were in the fossil record). The Cambrian's Many Forms Excerpt: "It appears that organisms displayed “rampant” within-species variation “in the ‘warm afterglow’ of the Cambrian explosion,” Hughes said, but not later. “No one has shown this convincingly before, and that’s why this is so important.""From an evolutionary perspective, the more variable a species is, the more raw material natural selection has to operate on,"....(Yet Surprisingly)...."There's hardly any variation in the post-Cambrian," he said. "Even the presence or absence or the kind of ornamentation on the head shield varies within these Cambrian trilobites and doesn't vary in the post-Cambrian trilobites." University of Chicago paleontologist Mark Webster; commenting on the "surprising and unexplained" loss of variation and diversity for trilobites over the 270 million year time span that trilobites were found in the fossil record, prior to their total extinction from the fossil record about 250 million years ago. http://www.terradaily.com/reports/The_Cambrian_Many_Forms_999.html Evolution vs. Trilobites - Prof. Andy McIntosh - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P-gHO2Vl5gbornagain77
November 12, 2009
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Joseph at 216, IOW there is no reason to expect a nested hierarchy because a nested hierarchy requires a direction of immutable and additive defining characteristics. I presume you are referring to the fact that observed inheritance hierarchies are nested. Why would a nested inheritance hierarchy require those two features? It's perfectly possible for characteristics to be added, modified, or deleted within a nested inheritance hierarchy. The defining characteristic of the nested hierarchy predicted by modern evolutionary theory is that the changes between one node and the next will be incremental. Those changes are not purely additive nor are "characteristics" that appear as the result of those (genetic) changes immutable.Mustela Nivalis
November 12, 2009
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scrofulous, The pattern of nested hierarchy is totally unexpected given random mutations and natural selection. The way Darwin explained it is via extinction events that created the distinct categories we now observe. As Dr Denton stated in "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis" with descent with modification the best we can get is a sequence, which would lead to transitional forms which would blur the lines of distinct categories required by nested hierarchies. But then again you don't seem to let facts get in the way of your bloviations so have at it. Can evolution make things less complicated?
Instead, the data suggest that eukaryote cells with all their bells and whistles are probably as ancient as bacteria and archaea, and may have even appeared first, with bacteria and archaea appearing later as stripped-down versions of eukaryotes, according to David Penny, a molecular biologist at Massey University in New Zealand. Penny, who worked on the research with Chuck Kurland of Sweden's Lund University and Massey University's L.J. Collins, acknowledged that the results might come as a surprise. “We do think there is a tendency to look at evolution as progressive,” he said. “We prefer to think of evolution as backwards, sideways, and occasionally forward.”
IOW there is no reason to expect a nested hierarchy because a nested hierarchy requires a direction of immutable and additive defining characteristics. But then again you don't seem interested in those fact thingies...Joseph
November 11, 2009
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Hey Scoff, I found a picture of you working on Darwinism: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xGKqAYbOtaE/SvjW4thJkEI/AAAAAAAAA8c/5k1ay3UiOc0/s1600-h/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg Keep beating on it, I'm sure you can beat Darwinism back to life eventually.bornagain77
November 11, 2009
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Also, Scrofulous, I am still waiting clarification that Spetner really claimed that any point mutation is necessarily a loss of information.avocationist
November 11, 2009
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--- scrofulous: "When Dawkins and Miller say things like that, they are talking about the superficial appearance of design." To say that it is "superficial" is to say that God mislead us, which is exactly the charge you level against ID, but the one which truly can be attributed to you. In fact Miller, and you by extension, are telling us that God designed a process in which design appears to be real but isn't. Which of our two camps is saying that God sent a mixed message. Not ours Organisms appear to be designed and the evidence confirms that they most likely were designed. That is the lesson that nature teaches us. Learn it; live it; love it. ---"The question: If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies?" Nested hierarchies do not require undirected evolution, so your main talking point is irrelevant. That you can come up with nothing else amplifies the point that you have no case. ---"There are a zillion other ways he could have done it. Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?" He didn't. ---If this question is so hard to answer, shouldn’t that tell you something about the viability of ID?" It was very easy to answer. When are you doing to answer my questions about Ken Miller at 84?StephenB
November 11, 2009
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Another question for the moderators: Why did you delete my detailed reply to Upright Biped @196? Upright, Of all the 'oughts' you list in #200, only one is about what the designer ought to have done, and it comes from you, not me. My question is not about what the designer ought to have done; it's about why the designer did what he did.scrofulous
November 11, 2009
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By that way, scrofulous, when are you going to answer my questions about Ken Miller @84.StephenB
November 11, 2009
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BillB:
I wasn’t aware of this as a specific prediction but observation does conclude that *most* species display an approximate 1:1 sex ratio...
Which is why I was careful to use the word 'most' in my original statement:
NDE predicts that the sex ratio in most species should be one male for every female.
If you look upthread, you'll see why I brought up that fact. Mung claims that NDE predicts anything and everything. I invited him to demonstrate that:
NDE predicts that the sex ratio in most species should be one male for every female. You claim that NDE predicts anything and everything. According to you, then, NDE also predicts that the sex ratio should be five males for every female. Let’s see you back up your claim, Mung. Using nothing but Darwinian principles, show us how NDE predicts a sex ratio of five males per female.
Instead of answering the challenge, Mung tried to change the subject.scrofulous
November 11, 2009
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"If this question is so hard to answer, shouldn’t that tell you something about the viability of ID?" Is this some kind of childish game. It has been answered more than once and each time it gets answered you ignore the answer and say it hasn't been answered. Doesn't this tell you something about the validity of the anti ID position.jerry
November 11, 2009
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Question for the moderators: why are my comments being held in the moderation queue? jerry:
That has been answered. It is micro evolution. No one denies micro evolution and it is fantastic design.
Jerry, The pattern of the nested hierarchy shows up in all sorts of features, not just the ones you would acknowledge as "microevolutionary." Incidentally, I've seen ID supporters claim that natural selection is a tautology, then turn around a few hours later and say that ID accepts microevolution, as in the case of antibiotic resistance.scrofulous
November 11, 2009
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scrofulous, I answered your nonsensical question. So what is your problem? Ya see the design would have used the template that produces a nested hierarchy- you know for order and such. Then you say:
There are a zillion other ways he could have done it.
Yet you have no idea how many ways there are to design living organisms and have them all "play" together. You also ask:
Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?
The only thing in biology tat points to undirected processes are genetic diseases and malfunctions. And BTW when people say the design is superficial it would be up to them to demonstrate that undirected processes can account for it. To date all we have is a declaration.Joseph
November 11, 2009
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Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true? Explain how it has the appearance of being undirected. Do you have a hypothesis for detecting non-design, and how does it apply? How can a thing appear both superficially designed and have evidence of a lack of design?ScottAndrews
November 11, 2009
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StephenB:
He didn’t. He picked one that makes design appear to be true. If you don’t believe me, ask Ken Miller himself, and his mentor, Richard Dawkins, both of whom acknowledge that biology is the study of organisms that appear to be designed.
Stephen, When Dawkins and Miller say things like that, they are talking about the superficial appearance of design. In this thread we have been talking about the evidence of the nested hierarchy. My question makes that explicit:
The question: If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies? There are a zillion other ways he could have done it. Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?
If this question is so hard to answer, shouldn't that tell you something about the viability of ID?scrofulous
November 11, 2009
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scrofulous: I promised you long ago I would answer your question if you would answer my questions about Ken Miller. Naturally, you didn’t because you can’t. Meanwhile, your dialogue partners refute you at every level and you continue on with your scripted talking points as sleek as ever, not having responded to, absorbed, or even read a word that was said. The problem is, and always has been, that your question is so naïvely constructed and full of false assumptions about nested hierarchies [consult Joseph], the designer’s intent [consult Upright Biped] the nature of ID [consult Upright Biped] [the difference between appearance and conclusions drawn from appearance [consult me], and the definition of “methodology” [something that scientists use to discern God’s handiwork, not something that God uses to create] that an adhoc committee of ID educators would be required to tweak it and make it coherent. However, since there is no time for that I will answer it exactly in the form it was asked. ----“The question: If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies? There are a zillion other ways he could have done it. Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?” He didn’t. He picked one that makes design appear to be true. If you don’t believe me, ask Ken Miller himself, and his mentor, Richard Dawkins, both of whom acknowledge that biology is the study of organisms that appear to be designed.StephenB
November 11, 2009
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"The one I quoted in #192:" That has been answered. It is micro evolution. No one denies micro evolution and it is fantastic design.jerry
November 11, 2009
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