Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ken Miller in Birmingham

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Noted Brown University biologist and slayer of windmills, Kenneth Miller, came to Birmingham, Alabama, on Thursday November 5. The room was packed with what seemed to be about 200 (mostly students and some faculty). Overall, Miller displayed the affable but subliminally arrogant attitude I’ve come to expect in some academics. Miller began by giving a long list of his publications interspersed along with some obligatory self-deprecating humor, the apparent take-home message being “look at what a smart and prolific boy I am.” He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.” After giving a wholly inaccurate definition of ID as the idea that “design in the form of outside intelligent intervention is required to account for the origin of living things,” he launched into the bulk of his lecture most of which simply gave examples of common descent as “proof” of Darwinian evolution.  I must say that I was surprised by the degree to which Miller absolutely savaged ID. It’s not that he simply disagrees with ID, the substance of his message was that ID is a creationist group (no one was mentioned by name) with the Discovery Institute as its front organization working (in his words) “against scientific rationality.” The thrust of his ID comments were wholly denigrating and dismissive.  Miller later admitted that evolution was the product of “design in nature” in search of “adaptive spaces.” His discussion of design was frankly bizarre; at times he almost sounded like a Gaia proponent—I couldn’t figure out if by design he meant just some sort of unfolding or self-direction or if “design” was somehow synonymous with natural selection. The entire presentation in this regard was quite fuzzy.  There was a lot of conflation of concepts—my personal favorite being his conflation of evolution, genetics, and Gregor Mendel. Anyone listening to Miller on this would have thought that Mendel was simply carrying Darwin’s ideas forward; he did not, of course, point out that Darwin’s adherence to pangenesis and the notion of inheritance of acquired characteristics was quite different from that of Mendel. The rest was pretty predictable.

I finally did get to ask Miller a question. It was the second to last one, and Miller was pretty euphoric having hit a series of Q & A home runs from softballs pitched at T-ball speeds mostly by students. The good thing was that by the time I got to pose my question a lot of questioners had prefaced their questions with comments (mostly “thank you, thank you, for supporting theism and science,” “oh what an important struggle we have before us promoting good science, your presentation was marvelous,” etc., etc.). I started by saying that I sincerely wished that this country could get away from this overly simplistic “evolution versus creation” discourse as unhistorical and unhelpful. We talk about evolution as though Wallace and Mivart never existed. Then I said, “Dr. Miller, as you well know, Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of natural selection, broke with Darwin over the role of natural selection in creating the human mind. Wallace didn’t think it could account for it; Mivart agreed. Now these objections are still with us today. They haven’t gone away. Surely you’re familiar with the April issue of Nature in which Bolhuis and Wynne asked, ‘Can evolution explain how minds work?’. Don’t we have an educational obligation to give the WHOLE story of evolution? I mean we talk about evolution as if it was simply the story of Darwin and science on the march when, if fact, many of the original objections raised to his theory remain today. This is Whiggish history of the worst kind! How can we get past this and tell the more complete and accurate story of evolution? ” Miller replied by nodding in apparent approval, which seemed inappropriate given his presentation, but then simply didn’t answer the question. The upshot of his reply was to utter some vague generalizations about the Templeton Foundation and that he was working with them on this very thing. Huh??

Well that’s my report. I must say Miller is an engaging and powerful speaker. His points are persuasive to the uninformed and although I have no objection to his having his say in a free markeplace of ideas, I suspect that he does considerable intellectual damage where ever he goes.

Comments
it takes over 20 million years to form a new species.
Where did you get that from?
Well, I have been trying to form a new species for 20 years now, so far without success. I am merely extrapolating my results.Mung
November 10, 2009
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Joseph,
With nested hierarchies defining traits MUST BE immutable and additive- evolution does NOT have such a direction.
No offense, but from your posts in this thread it's pretty obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please repair your lack of knowledge and come back later for a fruitful discussion. Your claim that traits in a nested hierarchy must be immutable and additive is simply nonsense. Suppose species A (white) branches into species A (the original species) and species B (black), and species B branches into species B and species C (yellow). Then we have {A,{B,C}}, a nested hierarchy of species, according to a mutable and non-additive trait.jitsak
November 10, 2009
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ScottAndrews,
This is one of the reasons why ET lacks explanatory power. To say that change is caused by one of these mechanisms or a combination of them is not an explanation.
It is a general explanation. In individual cases the explanation can be narrowed down. But if you have a better explanation, I'm all ears.jitsak
November 10, 2009
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BTW scrofulous, If you are relying on talk origins to support your claims then you have already lost. Good luck with that...Joseph
November 10, 2009
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Tell us why NDE does not predict the nested hierarchy.
Dr Denton did that over 20 years ago. Ya see with descent with modification the best one can expect is a LINEAGE/ SEQUENCE. A lineage is not a nested hierarchy. With descent with modification defining traits are not immutable nor additive- whatever survives survives. With nested hierarchies defining traits MUST BE immutable and additive- evolution does NOT have such a direction. Also with evolution we would expect TRANSITIONAL forms. Transitional forms BY THEIR VERY DEFINITION refute the premise of nested hierarchies as nested hierarchies also demand distinct boudaries which transitional forms would violate. The predictions of random mutations and natural selection: There is no way to predict what mutation will pop up at any point in time.- obvious There is no way to predict what will be selected for at any point in time- Dennett on PBS series "Evolution".Joseph
November 10, 2009
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Jerry I know you have rather a lot to respond to but, if you have time, I am intrigued by your statement in #146: it takes over 20 million years to form a new species. Where did you get that from? (Bear in mind it is 63 MYA since the end of the dinosaurs.)Mark Frank
November 10, 2009
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ScottAndrews:
It became possible right after I stopped beating my wife.
Don't dodge the question. Looking at independent data sets, biologists have produced nested hierarchies that agree with each other to 38 decimal places of precsion. Explain to us how that is possible if the nested hierarchy is not real.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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There are several confirmed (both theoretically and empirically) mechanisms by which speciation can occur according to ET. Drift, natural selection, sexual selection, in allopatry or sympatry, or any combination thereof. This is one of the reasons why ET lacks explanatory power. To say that change is caused by one of these mechanisms or a combination of them is not an explanation. It's like a theory that predicts an increase in mortality. Why? Because there are a bunch of things that can kill people, and more of them are going to happen. Even if its "prediction" is accurate, it was still never more than a wild guess.ScottAndrews
November 10, 2009
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"It does: random mutation and natural selection. The nested hierarchy is a direct consequence of this mechanism. If the mechanism were different (say, design), then a nested hierarchy would not be predicted." How much longer does this nonsense have to be corrected before you get it. Several who hold the ID premise recognize that nested hierarchies are frequent. Normal devolution through NDE processes produces nested hierarchies except they are really upside down. So are they lowerarchies. And are completely compatible with ID. They are essentially micro evolution. ID has no problem with these so called upside down hierarchies if that is what they can be called but the nodes do not represent evolution but devolution except where they haven't a clue where a node began and only speculate. So what some of these nested hierarchies are is complete speculation that becomes science after awhile. For example, the origin of mammals and birds is at best speculative. Now Khan will tell you birds is a done deal but he has presented no evidence of this except a few isolated characteristics found in a few fossils. He listed a lot of unique characteristics for birds and pronounced them at macro evolution. And I agree in the sense that they are major characteristics necessary for bird flight. I asked him for the evidence of the evolution of all these characteristics in birds and how they happened and he did not present any. If something evolved it had to change from something and this change had to be gradual. I say the evidence doesn't exist and Khan failes to provide the evidence to refute me so what am I to say. Did they pop out of nowhere and represent another instance of the poof effect or did they slowly accumulate over time? So birds and mammals represent new nodes of unknown origin and what happened after that is pure speculation but devolution is as good a rationale as any for it. And devolution is good science as far as the latest evolutionary synthesis is concerned and as far as ID is concerned. There is no conflict. So stop creating problems where there is none. As I told you above, stop asserting and pontificating and deliver on evidence not speculation and stop confusing what ID believes and does not.jerry
November 10, 2009
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Mung,
But there is nothing in evolutionary theory that states that lineages must branch for evolution to occur.
That's true. Evolution can occur without branching. However, speciation (and therefore branching) is predicted by evolutionary theory (ET). Ergo, a nested hierarchy is predicted by ET. There are several confirmed (both theoretically and empirically) mechanisms by which speciation can occur according to ET. Drift, natural selection, sexual selection, in allopatry or sympatry, or any combination thereof. Look it up in a textbook or google it if you like.jitsak
November 10, 2009
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Tell us why NDE does not predict the nested hierarchy.
Because it does not follow from any principle (axiom) of the theory. It is a pattern that the theory attempts to explain, and the explanation is, according to NDE, common descent. You can't then (logically) assert that it's a prediction of the theory without begging the question. Also, I'm sure you'll agree to the presence of a branching pattern. But there is nothing in evolutionary theory that states that lineages must branch for evolution to occur. If we remove branching, what happens to the nested hierarchy?Mung
November 10, 2009
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You don’t have to falsify a theory in order to decide that another theory is better.
True. Intelligent Design is a better explanation than "we don't know (Darwinism)"
You don’t get to pick and choose which evidence to measure a theory against.
False. You don't get to measure ID against evidence that's irrelevant to the claims of ID, as you have repeatedly attempted to do. e.g., There is no evidence for the existence of God, therefore Darwinian theory is false. Someone might object that Darwinian theory makes no prediction about the existence of God, and is compatible with the existence of God. Then someone might respond:
You don’t get to pick and choose which evidence to measure a theory against.
Mung
November 10, 2009
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Or scoff, if physics ain't your cup of tea, lets look at a few decimal places for the origin of life: The probabilities against life "spontaneously" originating are simply overwhelming: Signature in the Cell - Book Review - Ken Peterson Excerpt: the “simplest extant cell, Mycoplasma genitalium — a tiny bacterium that inhabits the human urinary tract — requires ‘only’ 482 proteins to perform its necessary functions (562,000 bases of DNA…to assemble those proteins).” ,,, amino acids have to congregate in a definite specified sequence in order to make something that “works.” First of all they have to form a “peptide” bond and this seems to only happen about half the time in experiments. Thus, the probability of building a chain of 150 amino acids containing only peptide links is about one chance in 10 to the 45th power. In addition, another requirement for living things is that the amino acids must be the “left-handed” version. But in “abiotic amino-acid production” the right- and left-handed versions are equally created. Thus, to have only left-handed, only peptide bonds between amino acids in a chain of 150 would be about one chance in 10 to the 90th. Moreover, in order to create a functioning protein the “amino acids, like letters in a meaningful sentence, must link up in functionally specified sequential arrangements.” It turns out that the probability for this is about one in 10 to the 74th. Thus, the probability of one functional protein of 150 amino acids forming by random chance is (1 in) 10 to the 164th. If we assume some minimally complex cell requires 250 different proteins then the probability of this arrangement happening purely by chance is one in 10 to the 164th multiplied by itself 250 times or one in 10 to the 41,000th power. http://www.spectrummagazine.org/reviews/book_reviews/2009/10/06/signature_cell In fact years ago Fred Hoyle arrived at approximately the same number, one chance in 10^40,000, for life spontaneously arising. From this number, Fred Hoyle compared the random emergence of the simplest bacterium on earth to the likelihood “a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747 therein”. Fred Hoyle also compared the chance of obtaining just one single functioning protein molecule, by chance combination of amino acids, to a solar system packed full of blind men solving Rubik’s Cube simultaneously. Protein Molecules and "Simple" Cells - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFNwStNhHIc The Origin of Life - Lecture On Probability - John Walton - Professor Of Chemistry - short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIgQP4RwrqY Entire Video: http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/originoflife.xml Probability's Nature and Nature's Probability: A Call to Scientific Integrity - Donald E. Johnson Excerpt: "one should not be able to get away with stating “it is possible that life arose from non-life by ...” or “it’s possible that a different form of life exists elsewhere in the universe” without first demonstrating that it is indeed possible (non-zero probability) using known science. One could, of course, state “it may be speculated that ... ,” but such a statement wouldn’t have the believability that its author intends to convey by the pseudo-scientific pronouncement." http://www.amazon.com/Probabilitys-Nature-Natures-Probability-Scientific/dp/1439228620 so scoff, if it takes decimal places for you to believe in design I got your 38 decimal places exceeded by 39,962 places of decimal. Want to compare some more numbers?bornagain77
November 10, 2009
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If the “tree of life” doesn’t exist, then how has it been possible to confirm it to 38 decimal places of accuracy? It became possible right after I stopped beating my wife.ScottAndrews
November 10, 2009
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Scoff, ignoring the biased methodology of your purported 38 decimal places, which was arrived at by extremely prejudiced sampling (you cannot presuppose true what you are trying to prove true!), and just comparing numbers from the ID camp to your 38 decimal places lets see what we get: Fine Tuning Of Dark Energy and Mass of the Universe - Hugh Ross - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B0t4zSzhjg To clearly illustrate the stunning degree of fine-tuning we are dealing with in the universe, Dr. Ross has used the illustration of adding or subtracting a single dime's worth of mass in the observable universe would have been enough of a change in mass density to make life impossible in this universe. This word picture he uses, with the dime, helps to demonstrate a number used to quantify that fine-tuning of mass for the universe, namely 1 part in 10^60 for mass density. Compared to the total mass of the observable universe, 1 part in 10^60 works out to about a tenth part of a dime, if not smaller. Where Is the Cosmic Density Fine-Tuning? - Hugh Ross http://www.reasons.org/where-cosmic-density-fine-tuning Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." Although 1 part in 10^120 and 1 part in 10^60 far exceeds, by many orders of magnitude, the highest tolerance ever achieved in any man-made machine, 1 part in 10^22, according to esteemed British mathematical physicist Roger Penrose (1931-present), the odds of one particular individual constant, the “original phase-space volume” of the universe, required such precision that the “Creator’s aim must have been to an accuracy of 1 part in 10^10^123”. This number is gargantuan. If this number were written out in its entirety, 1 with 10^123 zeros to the right, it could not be written on a piece of paper the size of the entire visible universe, even if a number were written down on each sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, since the universe only has 10^80 sub-atomic particles in it. The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)." http://www.pul.it/irafs/CD%20IRAFS%2702/texts/Penrose.pdf This 1 in 10^10^123 number, for the time-asymmetry of the initial state of entropy for the universe, also lends strong support for "highly specified infinite information" creating the universe since; "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more." Gilbert Newton Lewis This staggering level of precision, for each individual universal constant scientists can measure, is exactly why many theoretical physicists have suggested the existence of a “super-calculating intellect” to account for this fine-tuning. This is precisely why the anthropic hypothesis has gained such a strong foothold in many scientific circles. American geneticist Robert Griffiths jokingly remarked about these recent developments; "If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use anymore." Further comments: "Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it's remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren't just the way they are, we couldn't be here at all. The sun couldn't be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here. Some scientists argue that "well, there's an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right." Well, that's a postulate, and it's a pretty fantastic postulate — it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that's why it has come out so specially." Nobel Prize winning Physicist Charles Townes "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe that was created out of nothing and delicately balanced to provide exactly the conditions required to support life. In the absence of an absurdly improbable accident, the observations of modern science seem to suggest an underlying, one might say, supernatural plan." Physicist and Nobel laureate Arno Penzias "The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bulls eye one millimeter in diameter on the other side." Michael Turner - (Astrophysicist at Fermilab) "If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in." John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA) "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage (preeminent Astronomer) "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." (NASA Astronomer Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers, p. 116.) Proverbs 8:29-30 "When He marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;"bornagain77
November 10, 2009
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It does: random mutation and natural selection. The nested hierarchy is a direct consequence of this mechanism. So you're ruling out recombinance, horizontal transfer, and epigenetics. How? While you're at it, can you explain, using non-hypothetical examples, how random mutation and natural selection produced this nested hierarchy? Or can you only say that they did?ScottAndrews
November 10, 2009
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Scott Andrews:
NDE does in a sense, predict a nested hierarchy. That would constitute a meaningful scientific prediction if it made any attempt to explain how or why living things changed to form such a hierarchy.
It does: random mutation and natural selection. The nested hierarchy is a direct consequence of this mechanism. If the mechanism were different (say, design), then a nested hierarchy would not be predicted.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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Scott, If the "tree of life" doesn't exist, then how has it been possible to confirm it to 38 decimal places of accuracy? Please be specific.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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Tell us why NDE does not predict the nested hierarchy. I'm sure you noticed my scare quotes. NDE does in a sense, predict a nested hierarchy. That would constitute a meaningful scientific prediction if it made any attempt to explain how or why living things changed to form such a hierarchy. The explanation for the nested hierarchy is that somehow living things changed to form a nested hierarchy. It's hard to be impressed. I noticed Mung already pointed out that the genetic "tree of life" you're talking about doesn't exist. IOW, the prediction that's hardly a prediction isn't even true. That's okay. Since no one has a clue what the specific implementation of evolution is, it should be easy to reimagine it to predict that there is no nested hierarchy. I have no doubt that folks are already working on it.ScottAndrews
November 10, 2009
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Scott Andrews:
NDE doesn’t really “predict” anything.
Okay, I'll bite. Tell us why NDE does not predict the nested hierarchy. I'm sure Joseph will be happy to help you out.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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You’ve got it! NDE makes a huge number of successful predictions (including the prediction of the nested hierarchy), while ID predicts nothing NDE doesn't really "predict" anything. It provides just-so narratives describing observed phenomena without really explaining any of them. As it stands, it offers a host of possible explanations for the existence and variation of species, never fully explains or demonstrates any of them, and then claims that the truth lies in some unknown combination of those and other yet undiscovered causes. We know how the species originated - they changed, somehow. And it works quite well. Its vacuous lack of detail facilitates stretching the theory to "explain" anything observed. (See Punctuated Equilibrium.)ScottAndrews
November 10, 2009
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jerry:
Sorry, I was using the Grants as the source for my information. They apparently do not know much about the topic.
That's interesting. Could you give us a quotation from the Grants to show us what you mean?scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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scrofulous:
You don’t get to pick and choose which evidence to measure a theory against.
Mung:
lol. We have evidence that the earth revolves around the sun. NDE does not predict this, thus NDE is falsified. You most certainly do get to choose the evidence against which a theory is to be measured.
Mung, we've been through this before. Earlier in the thread, we had this exchange:
Mung:
Let’s also assume that it’s true that a nested hierarchy is present. If ID doesn’t predict one, how on earth does the presence of one in any way falsify ID?
scrofulous:
It doesn’t falsify ID. It just means that ID is extremely unlikely to be the correct explanation. NDE fits the facts much better.
You don't have to falsify a theory in order to decide that another theory is better.
A theory that can “predict” anything is no better than a theory that predicts nothing.
You've got it! NDE makes a huge number of successful predictions (including the prediction of the nested hierarchy), while ID predicts nothing (or everything, depending on how you look at it). That makes NDE a far superior theory.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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#146 it takes over 20 million years to form a new species Where did you get that figure?Mark Frank
November 10, 2009
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Joseph at 145, "Don’t you understand that to refute ID all you have to do is to actually go out and substantiate YOUR claims?" That is not the case. Until ID makes testable predictions that would serve to falsify the ID hypothesis (which must be explicitly stated), testing modern evolutionary theory can have no bearing on ID. No matter what empirical observations are made, ID proponents can claim they are compatible with ID. Further, modern evolutionary theory is tested daily by scientists around the world. The results of those tests are documented in the peer reviewed literature, of which there is a truly overwhelming volume. What testable predictions do you derive from ID? "If you have the scientific data that demonstrates that feathers can 'evolve' in a population that never had them then present it." There is fossil evidence that it happened. This blog post is accessible to the layman and gives enough information for anyone interested in learning more to do so.Mustela Nivalis
November 10, 2009
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joseph, I have pointed out this paper to you several times: http://www.pnas.org/content/102/33/11734.full it shows that a molecular model of feather evolution is congruent with robust paleontological evidence of the same. multiple lines of evidence supporting the same hypothesis, all that jazz.. jerry, no, it's always been Khan. nice moving of the goalposts. you say nothing novel has evolved in birds. i point out a half dozen things, you want the step-by-step evolution of each. if those topics interest you, I suggest doing your own research. you can start by reading "Speciation in Birds" by Trevor Price.. you might learn something like how hybrid sterility (what you refer to in your 20 my figure) is just one of many mechanisms for speciation.Khan
November 10, 2009
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"All the finches on the Galapagos Islands are considered one species. That’s not true, jerry: Darwin’s finches (also known as the Galápagos Finches or as Geospizinae) are a group of 14 or 15 species of Passerine birds, now placed in the tanager family rather than the true finch family." Sorry, I was using the Grants as the source for my information. They apparently do not know much about the topic. The original birds on the Galapagos have been there about 3.5 million years and it takes over 20 million years to form a new species. So I suggest both you and Wikipedia do the computing. I suggest practicing with flash cards to get your times tables correct before attempting any calculations. They can all interbreed (some of it may require artificial means). Just because they look different does not mean they are of a different species. Is the rest of your information just as reliable.jerry
November 10, 2009
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Khan:
since you think so little of birds, here’s a question: are feathers novel, complex structures or did trilobites have feathers?
Stop asking questions and start providing the scientific data that would support your position. What is wrong with you people? Don't you understand that to refute ID all you have to do is to actually go out and substantiate YOUR claims? If you have the scientific data that demonstrates that feathers can "evolve" in a population that never had them then present it.Joseph
November 10, 2009
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Khan:
some novel complex features evolved since the first appearance of birds: UV vision color-producing nanostructured tissues in feathers (structural colors) ability to hover (hummingbirds) strutted bones air sac system (only partially present in dinosaurs) complex muscular system for controlling tail keeled sternum over 6 different types of feathers digestive system (crop and gizzard) syrinx (unique vocal organ)
How do we test all of that? And then how can we test that each of these "evolved" via undirected processes?Joseph
November 10, 2009
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And scrofulous, If you want to refute Dr Spetner you need a real-life example. Imaginary scenarios- like the one you posted- are never considered as a refutation. And you actually have to first demonstrate knowledge of the argument you are trying to refute.Joseph
November 10, 2009
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