Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ken Miller in Birmingham

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Noted Brown University biologist and slayer of windmills, Kenneth Miller, came to Birmingham, Alabama, on Thursday November 5. The room was packed with what seemed to be about 200 (mostly students and some faculty). Overall, Miller displayed the affable but subliminally arrogant attitude I’ve come to expect in some academics. Miller began by giving a long list of his publications interspersed along with some obligatory self-deprecating humor, the apparent take-home message being “look at what a smart and prolific boy I am.” He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.” After giving a wholly inaccurate definition of ID as the idea that “design in the form of outside intelligent intervention is required to account for the origin of living things,” he launched into the bulk of his lecture most of which simply gave examples of common descent as “proof” of Darwinian evolution.  I must say that I was surprised by the degree to which Miller absolutely savaged ID. It’s not that he simply disagrees with ID, the substance of his message was that ID is a creationist group (no one was mentioned by name) with the Discovery Institute as its front organization working (in his words) “against scientific rationality.” The thrust of his ID comments were wholly denigrating and dismissive.  Miller later admitted that evolution was the product of “design in nature” in search of “adaptive spaces.” His discussion of design was frankly bizarre; at times he almost sounded like a Gaia proponent—I couldn’t figure out if by design he meant just some sort of unfolding or self-direction or if “design” was somehow synonymous with natural selection. The entire presentation in this regard was quite fuzzy.  There was a lot of conflation of concepts—my personal favorite being his conflation of evolution, genetics, and Gregor Mendel. Anyone listening to Miller on this would have thought that Mendel was simply carrying Darwin’s ideas forward; he did not, of course, point out that Darwin’s adherence to pangenesis and the notion of inheritance of acquired characteristics was quite different from that of Mendel. The rest was pretty predictable.

I finally did get to ask Miller a question. It was the second to last one, and Miller was pretty euphoric having hit a series of Q & A home runs from softballs pitched at T-ball speeds mostly by students. The good thing was that by the time I got to pose my question a lot of questioners had prefaced their questions with comments (mostly “thank you, thank you, for supporting theism and science,” “oh what an important struggle we have before us promoting good science, your presentation was marvelous,” etc., etc.). I started by saying that I sincerely wished that this country could get away from this overly simplistic “evolution versus creation” discourse as unhistorical and unhelpful. We talk about evolution as though Wallace and Mivart never existed. Then I said, “Dr. Miller, as you well know, Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of natural selection, broke with Darwin over the role of natural selection in creating the human mind. Wallace didn’t think it could account for it; Mivart agreed. Now these objections are still with us today. They haven’t gone away. Surely you’re familiar with the April issue of Nature in which Bolhuis and Wynne asked, ‘Can evolution explain how minds work?’. Don’t we have an educational obligation to give the WHOLE story of evolution? I mean we talk about evolution as if it was simply the story of Darwin and science on the march when, if fact, many of the original objections raised to his theory remain today. This is Whiggish history of the worst kind! How can we get past this and tell the more complete and accurate story of evolution? ” Miller replied by nodding in apparent approval, which seemed inappropriate given his presentation, but then simply didn’t answer the question. The upshot of his reply was to utter some vague generalizations about the Templeton Foundation and that he was working with them on this very thing. Huh??

Well that’s my report. I must say Miller is an engaging and powerful speaker. His points are persuasive to the uninformed and although I have no objection to his having his say in a free markeplace of ideas, I suspect that he does considerable intellectual damage where ever he goes.

Comments
scrofulous, The NDE does NOT predict any nested hierarchies. The only people who think so are the people who don't know about either nested hierarchies nor the NDE. The ONLY thing the NDE "predicts" is either change or stasis. As for ID:
The conclusion that something was designed can be made quite independently of knowledge of the designer. As a matter of procedure, the design must first be apprehended before there can be any further question about the designer. The inference to design can be held with all firmness that is possible in this world, without knowing anything about the designer.—Dr Behe
As a scientific research program, intelligent design investigates the effects of intelligence and not intelligence as such.- Wm. Dembski page 33 of The Design Revolution
Observation: The Universe Question Is the universe the result of intentional design? Prediction: 1) If the universe was the product of a common design then I would expect it to be governed by one (common) set of parameters. 2) If the universe were designed for scientific discovery then I would expect a strong correlation between habitability and measurability. 3) Also if the universe was designed for scientific discovery I would expect it to be comprehensible. Test: 1) Try to determine if the same laws that apply every place on Earth also apply throughout the universe. 2) Try to determine the correlation between habitability and measurability. 3) Try to determine if the universe is comprehensible. Potential falsification: 1) Observe that the universe is chaotic. 2) A- Find a place that is not habitable but offers at least as good of a platform to make scientific discoveries as Earth or B- Find a place that is inhabited but offers a poor platform from which to make scientific discoveries. 3) Observe that we cannot comprehend the universe, meaning A) what applies locally does not apply throughout or B) what applies in one scenario, even locally, cannot be used/ applied in any similar scenario, even locally. Confirmation: 1) Tests conducted all over the globe, on the Moon and in space confirm that the same laws that apply here also apply throughout the universe. 2) All scientific data gathered to date confirm that habitability correlates with measurability. 3) “The most incomprehensible thing about our universe is that it is comprehensible.” Albert Einstein Observation: Living organisms Question Are living organisms the result of intentional design? Prediction: If living organisms were the result of intentional design then I would expect to see that living organisms are (and contain subsystems that are) irreducibly complex and/ or contain complex specified information. IOW I would expect to see an intricacy that is more than just a sum of chemical reactions (endothermic or exothermic). Further I would expect to see command & control- a hierarchy of command & control would be a possibility. Test: Try to deduce the minimal functionality that a living organism. Try to determine if that minimal functionality is irreducibly complex and/or contains complex specified information. Also check to see if any subsystems are irreducibly complex and/ or contain complex specified information. Potential falsification: Observe that living organisms arise from non-living matter via a mixture of commonly-found-in-nature chemicals. Observe that while some systems “appear” to be irreducibly complex it can be demonstrated that they can indeed arise via purely stochastic processes such as culled genetic accidents. Also demonstrate that the apparent command & control can also be explained by endothermic and/or exothermic reactions. Confirmation: Living organisms are irreducibly complex and contain irreducibly complex subsystems. The information required to build and maintain a single-celled organism is both complex and specified. Command & control is observed in single-celled organisms- the bacterial flagellum not only has to be configured correctly, indicating command & control over the assembly process, but it also has to function, indicating command & control over functionality. Conclusion (scientific inference) Both the universe and living organisms are the result of intention design. Any future research can either confirm or refute this premise, which, for the biological side, was summed up in Darwinism, Design and Public Education page 92: 1. High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2. Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3. Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4. Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.Joseph
November 10, 2009
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You don’t get to pick and choose which evidence to measure a theory against.
lol. We have evidence that the earth revolves around the sun. NDE does not predict this, thus NDE is falsified. You most certainly do get to choose the evidence against which a theory is to be measured.
A theory that makes successful predictions is better than one that does not.
A theory that can "predict" anything is no better than a theory that predicts nothing.Mung
November 9, 2009
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Mung, You don't get to pick and choose which evidence to measure a theory against. All of the evidence needs to be considered, and the theory that best fits the evidence is to be preferred. A theory that makes successful predictions is better than one that does not. NDE makes many successful predictions (the nested hierarchy being just one of them). ID makes no predictions that I'm aware of, unless you count the contradictory predictions that a) junk DNA must have a function if ID is true, and b) junk DNA need not have a function if ID is true.scrofulous
November 9, 2009
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jerry:
jitsak, All the finches on the Galapagos Islands are considered one species.
That's not true, jerry:
Darwin's finches (also known as the Galápagos Finches or as Geospizinae) are a group of 14 or 15 species of Passerine birds, now placed in the tanager family rather than the true finch family.
Linkscrofulous
November 9, 2009
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avocationist:
I don’t know whether the examples you gave exist in reality, or are hypothetical.
Avocationist, Point mutations and reversions are real phenomena. There is nothing unrealistic about the scenario below:
Joseph, You’re missed the point. The viability of the intermediates between A and B is irrelevant to the argument. Let me present an even more direct illustration of the problem with Spetner’s claim. Suppose that gene A undergoes a silent mutation that converts a C to a U. According to Spetner, there has been a loss of information. Now gene A experiences another mutation that reverses the first mutation and converts the U back to a C. According to Spetner, there has been a further loss of information. Therefore, by Spetner’s logic, we have lost information by converting A into A. In his world, A has less information than A. Now do you see the problem?
scrofulous
November 9, 2009
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Scrofulous, Thank you for the Spetner quote, but I suspect it is taken out of context. I believe he preceded with an argument showing that mutations do indeed lose information, in a real way. The examples that you gave to falsify it were not the sort of thing he was talking about. I don't know whether the examples you gave exist in reality, or are hypothetical. Spetner gave actual cases of mutations as his examples. Also, what exactly does the phrase nested hierarchy refer to - similarity of appearance between life forms, or is it on the biomolecular level?avocationist
November 9, 2009
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Khan, You are now capitalizing your name. Is this a change? Wasn't it in small letters at one time.jerry
November 9, 2009
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Khan, Do you have the sequence for each of these capabilities and how they developed and do you have the data on how long the developmental cycle leading to each was. These couldn't have occurred over night so there must be a long list of organisms/fossils with and without each of the characteristics and indication of the progression made in all these characteristics. Since it takes over 20 million years for a new bird species to develop this must have happened a long time ago. So do you have any information on when the splits occurred for those with and without the various characteristics. There should be lots of variants with and without the various combinations of characteristics. How many exist today with and without these characteristics. And what mechanism caused all these changes from the prior condition to the condition with the capability. Sounds like interesting stuff.jerry
November 9, 2009
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jitsak, All the finches on the Galapagos Islands are considered one species. So what am I supposed to look into. You have some interesting micro evolution of variants there but no different than dissimilarities between the various ethnic groups of humans. You said you are not sure what the evolution argument is. Then you should sit back and observe and maybe over time you can make a comment that is relevant. But basically the evolution argument is could all the changes in life forms over the history of life on the planet have taken place by naturalistic means. ID says no and no one yet has been able to explain how some of it took place. Certainly not Darwin and neither has any of the vocal and visual people today such as Richard Dawkins or Jerry Coyne. They talk a good game but are very short on the delivery. So when you bring up some minor changes you are not addressing the "gut" issue and are in no way undermining ID but actually supporting it.jerry
November 9, 2009
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jitsak, Artifact:
1. Artifacts, Works, and Authors Aristotle divided things into those that “exist by nature” and “products of art” or “artificial products” (Physics, Book II, 192b). Artifacts are contrasted to natural objects; they are products of human actions. Consequently an artifact has necessarily a maker or an author. Using the word ‘author’ in a somewhat generalized sense, we may thus adopt the principle:
(A1) If an object is an artifact, it has an author.
It may be suggested that the maker of an artifact need not be a human being. For example, in a recent experiment a New Caledonian crow called Betty bent a piece of straight wire into a hook and used it to lift a bucket containing food from a vertical pipe (Weir at al., 2002). Betty's hook may be regarded as a simple artifact made for the purpose of gaining access to the food bucket.
Joseph
November 9, 2009
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jerry, some novel complex features evolved since the first appearance of birds: UV vision color-producing nanostructured tissues in feathers (structural colors) ability to hover (hummingbirds) strutted bones air sac system (only partially present in dinosaurs) complex muscular system for controlling tail keeled sternum over 6 different types of feathers digestive system (crop and gizzard) syrinx (unique vocal organ) just trivial microevolution, right?Khan
November 9, 2009
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jerry,
Have birds evolved or devolved? In their history what are the list of new complex capabilities that have developed. They are good at flying, hawks; good at swimming, penguins; good at both flying and swimming, puffins. But are they really different?
I don't know what you mean by devolved. Is that the opposite of evolved? Are deuterostomes "really different" from each other? They are all just modified tubes, right?
I don’t know a whole lot about them but they are supposedly the heirs of the kings of the planets (dinosaurs) with the ability to fly and with an incredibly useful oxygen transport system. You would have thought they would have taken over the place. But they have been sort of ho hum.
They also use a lot of energy with their high metabolic rate, so they cannot compete with cold-blooded animals in many environments. There are still fish and reptiles, right?
In terms of the evolution argument what do birds show us?
You might want to look into the radiation of finches on the Galapagos islands. But I'm not sure what "the evolution argument" is.jitsak
November 9, 2009
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jitsak, Have birds evolved or devolved? In their history what are the list of new complex capabilities that have developed. They are good at flying, hawks; good at swimming, penguins; good at both flying and swimming, puffins. But are they really different? I don't know a whole lot about them but they are supposedly the heirs of the kings of the planets (dinosaurs) with the ability to fly and with an incredibly useful oxygen transport system. You would have thought they would have taken over the place. But they have been sort of ho hum. In terms of the evolution argument what do birds show us?jerry
November 9, 2009
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Yes, Mung. Just like mammals have evolved into mammals, animals have evolved into animals, and organisms have evolved into organisms.jitsak
November 9, 2009
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More from Ken Miller:
The rise of Christianity established for its believers that the ultimate designer was God the creator. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest of Christian philosophers, made this argument explicit: Wherever complex design exists, there must have been a designer; nature is complex; therefore nature must have had an intelligent designer. This straightforward argument is one of Aquinas's five ways to demonstrate the existence of God, and was adapted brilliantly in Rev. William Paley's 1802 book, Natural Theology (p.21)
Um, no, Ken.
Aquinas's first three Ways are all variations on what is known as the "cosmological argument" for the existence of God ... The Fourth Way is sometimes called the "henological argument" ... The Fifth Way, in turn, is commonly taken to be a version of the "teleological argument" ... Etymologically speaking, this is an apt name for the proof, but it is also potentially misleading given that when most contemporary philosophers hear the expression "teleological argument" they naturally think of the famous "design argument," associated historically with William Paley (1743-1805), and defended today by "Intelligent Design" theorists critical of Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. Indeed, many writers (such as Richard Dawkins) assume that the Fifth Way is just a variation on the "design argument." But in fact Aquinas's argument is radically different from Paley's, and the standard objections directed against the latter have no force against the former. - Edward Fester, Aquinas (p. 110)
One has to wonder if Miller got his ideas from Dawkins. Perhaps he should stick to Biology.Mung
November 9, 2009
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Birds have evolved into penguins, hawks, ostriches, etc, occupying many niches.
Birds have evolved into birds?Mung
November 9, 2009
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Sorry, here is the correct link. As you can see, jerry, birds have developed tools. Indeed, at a level of sophistication surpassing most primates. Birds have evolved into penguins, hawks, ostriches, etc, occupying many niches. Unlike you, I wouldn't call that "essentially the same". You might as well call all deuterostomes essentially the same tubes with appendages to stuff food in one end and shit from the other end.jitsak
November 9, 2009
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jerry, since you think so little of birds, here's a question: are feathers novel, complex structures or did trilobites have feathers?Khan
November 9, 2009
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jitsak, Yes I have seen videos of these birds. There is a great nature series, Planet Earth that I believe has video of them. Your link does not lead anywhere so you should correct it. Birds do some clever things. In the Evolution in Four Dimensions by Jablonka and Lamb, birds learned to open milk bottles and then passed it on to their buddies so that the whole neighborhood had these milk bottle opening birds. There are other examples in the book of learned behavior by animals that is passed on. It is one of their dimensions of evolution. Birds build things too such as nests and are clever regarding the materials they use. But basically they are the same as 120 million years ago, though video wasn't available then to show how little they have come.jerry
November 9, 2009
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Some quotes from Kenneth Miller's book Only a Theory
The "new science of design," its advocates claim, would give us an entirely new way to look at life. While evolution is limited to bringing about very slight changes, intelligent design (ID) would enable us to develop new antibiotics that would conquer disease once and for all. (p.13)
The willingness of Americans to reject established authority has played a major role in the way that local activists have managed to push ideas such as scientific creationism and intelligent design into local schools. (p.12)
"The majesty of our earth. The beauty of life. Are they the results of a natural process called evolution, or the work of a divine creator? This question is at the heart of a struggle that is threatening to tear our nation apart." (NOVA, 2001)
You've got to be kidding, I thought to myself the first time I heard that narration ... but do they really have what it takes to rend the fabric of America? I didn't think so in 2001. But I certainly do now. (p.7)
Those who defend science are regarded as godless atheists who wish the worst for our young people and seek to undermine both faith and traditional American values. (p.7)
Godless atheists?
When defenders of mainstream science strike back, they're often tempted to describe their tormentors as Luddites, fools, or worse ... (p.7)
Tormentors?
What is at stake, I am convinced, is nothing less than America's scientific soul. (p.16)
Anyone else notice the irony in Miller's use of the soul as a metaphor?Mung
November 9, 2009
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Um, jerry, don't underestimate birds:
The New Caledonian Crow is the only non-human species with a record of inventing new tools by modifying existing ones, then passing these innovations to other individuals in the cultural group.
linkjitsak
November 9, 2009
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2. Gradual evolutionary processes do yield consistent nested hierarchies, and this is what we find when we examine life, both morphologically and via molecular biology.
That is false. You would only expect to see lineages/ sequences with all descent with modification scenarios. Transitional species would blur the line of distinction- as they would, by defintion- posess a blend of defining characteristics. Darwin said that extinctions are what led to the distinct categories. And please tell me- what is it in the theory of evolution that prevents a mixture of characteristic traits? With descent with modification we can expect lineages. Lineages should never be confused with nested hierarchies. Nested hierarchies demand that defining characteristics be immutable and additive. Life isn't like that. Whatever survives to reproduce, survives to reproduce.
If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies?
If makes sense to do so. Designers use some sort of order and no need to keep re-inventing for every organism
There are a zillion other ways he could have done it.
And just how do you know that?
Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?
How can undirected evolution be tested? As I said before all you can "predict" with the NDE is change or stasis. You think there is something else yet you don't say anything about it.Joseph
November 9, 2009
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scrofulous, here's how I summarize your argument: We have all this evidence that points to common descent, which consists of a particular pattern. If there is a designer, he/she/it could have produced zillions of other patterns, any one of which would have been incompatible with the evidence predicted by common descent. We don't find any of these other patterns, what we find is a pattern consist with common descent. Therefore, ID must be false. That about capture it?Mung
November 9, 2009
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If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies? There are a zillion other ways he could have done it. Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?
Wow. You don't even appear to be attempting to understand the responses to this question, and I have responded numerous times.
And if the evidence matches the predictions of NDE, but not those of ID, then how can ID be justified as scientifically true?
ID does not make any prediction concerning this "evidence" of yours. Therefore to claim that your evidence does not match the predictions of ID is to construct a strawman.
You end up claiming that ID is true in spite of the evidence, rather than because of it.
The claim that ID is true is not based on this "evidence." You are the only one here arguing that it is. Don't you get it yet? How much more plainly can it be stated?Mung
November 9, 2009
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"And if the evidence matches the predictions of NDE, but not those of ID, then how can ID be justified as scientifically true? You end up claiming that ID is true in spite of the evidence, rather than because of it." You haven't a clue as to what ID is about. So I would start asking questions and not pontificating. There is no reason NDE is not subsumed within ID and yet you assume they are at odds. ID says that NDE or just to be more precise the latest version of the evolutionary synthesis cannot explain everything not that it is wrong in total. It is just limited. Now any further comments you make should take that into consideration. PS - devolution also produces nested hierarchies as a large population gene pool descends into narrower ones as the various aspects of selection exert their influence. But in a downward direction, not upward as Darwin proposed. Life started with phyla in the Cambrian and worked its way downward. PPS - in the 120-150 million years that birds have been around why haven't they developed tools or are essentially the same as when they started. Oh we have lots of varieties but birds are essentially the same. Not much action in Birdland. And it takes 22 million years to get a new species of birds, a very conservative group. Do all birds vote Republican?jerry
November 9, 2009
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Scoff states, "so I’ll have to be less comprehensive than I’d like," Scoff, do you even read what you write? I am pretty sure you believe what you write, but I find zero logical consistency to it. I believe it is fairly clear that, in your own way, you are trying to somehow establish validity for evolution,, But why are you relying on shallow peripheral reason in order to do this? Why not go to the heart of the matter directly with empirical evidence and slam dunk the case home for evolution? Clearly, at least to me, you have left the domain of science proper when you present no evidence to withstand scrutiny. Do you disagree that scientists have never changed any bacteria into another bacteria? If so present your evidence. Yet there is no evidence for you to present! Scoff, Why in the world do you believe in evolution when it can't even offer this supremely trivial level of proof for the simplest life on earth? Do you find a teleological view of reality appalling? If so, Why?bornagain77
November 9, 2009
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My time for commenting is limited this week, so I'll have to be less comprehensive than I'd like, but I do want to point out the following: 1. Human design yields nested hierarchies, but they are not consistent with each other. Taking computers as an example, if you construct a nested hierarchy of computers based on processors, it will not be consistent with a nested hierarchy based on disk drives. 2. Gradual evolutionary processes do yield consistent nested hierarchies, and this is what we find when we examine life, both morphologically and via molecular biology. 3. Humans could choose to produce consistent nested hierarchies if they wanted to, but they rarely (if ever) do. After all, when you're designing something, who cares whether it falls into a neat set of consistent nested hierarchies? What matters is how well it works. 4. Humans mix and match design components all the time. A peripheral developed for PCs can be used in a Mac. Why reinvent the wheel? 5. Life isn't like human design. It falls into consistent nested hierarchies, and there is no mixing and matching. The question: If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies? There are a zillion other ways he could have done it. Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true? And why does he never borrow a feature of a modern bird species, for example, and stick it into a mammal (or vice-versa)? Human designers do this kind of thing all the time. And if the evidence matches the predictions of NDE, but not those of ID, then how can ID be justified as scientifically true? You end up claiming that ID is true in spite of the evidence, rather than because of it.scrofulous
November 9, 2009
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Another comment relative to what was discussed in #72 above. All the assertions are based on a gradual accumulation of changes over time that left a trail. All are based on a deterioration of genomes which no one denies. There are process that constantly mutate individual pieces or little pieces of the genome on an ongoing basis and they leave a trail. But the theory of naturalistic evolution is based on a different premise, namely that some of these changes gradually build to enable completely different functions and some of these functions over time turn out to be quite amazing. While the first scenario, the random neutral changes in the genome are available for all to see, somehow the changes that built up these different functions are invisible in the genomic architecture of the organisms of the planet. Apparently the dog ate them. It is this last phenomena, the complete absence of genomic evidence of the development of these new functions, that leads logically to ID.jerry
November 9, 2009
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Another expection one would have of NDE is an evolutionary history with few failures when it comes to the sorting method of hardiness/fecundity. IOW, if even the most basic mutation can only be selected for if it makes the organism more hardy/more fecund, it seems to me that you'd have a pretty good system for success, considering that a very hard/fecund organism was around so early in the game (ancient bacteria). But yet, that's not what we have; we don't have an evolutionary history of increasing fecundity/hardiness, what we have are millions of years of what looks like design experimentation for some other reason or goal, replete with what we see in the human example of both design failures and the disposal of old designs as - apparently - new designs are achieved that are considered advancements towards the goal by the designer. I remember a dyson vacuum cleaner commercial that says taht there were thousands of design "failures" before the design was achieved that actually went into production; translated to evolutionary history, this would mean that we should find a propensity of extinct species. It seems to me that if NDE was true, you'd find a minimum of extinct species, considering that you began with one that could survive and reproduce in a huge variety of challenging environments, and the only thing that was being selected for was more fecund, more hardy species.William J. Murray
November 9, 2009
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"I’m not surprised that you’re avoiding the question I raised in #72. I have yet to encounter an ID supporter who could answer it." I have been following what is happening here rather infrequently lately but this comment is absolutely not true. I read comment #72 and even if all your assertions are true, then there are several perspectives of ID that are entirely consistent with them and thus explain them. I have also not read any of the comments in between so do not know what has been said. Starting first with the premise that some who support ID have. Namely, there was only one event that required an intelligent input and that was the origin of life. All the rest flowed from that. That is an ID position some hold. Some hold that life's origin was a natural process and the fine tuning of the laws of nature enabled this process to get started. Next, take the premise that the hurdles required for macro evolution are so great that it takes assistance from an intelligence to ease organisms over the hurdle through whatever means you want to postulate. Some hold to the idea that this happened through quantum events. In other words non random quantum events were used as the means to implement the necessary changes. Some take the view point that the intervention was more direct. For example, the ecology needed certain types of organisms to enable it to proceed and current organisms were modified to make that happen. You could let your imagination run and possibly think of other scenarios but the constant is that events must have taken place that required an intelligent input. It does not mean that all or even most needed an intelligent input. The theory really states that it is at least one intervention. There is no proof for any of these scenarios just as there is no proof that natural processes have the power to create macro evolutionary events and the information to enable them. We know intelligence can get the job done. We know that natural process have never been shown to be capable of getting the job done. So the logical conclusion is that there is a high probability that there is an intelligence responsible for some aspects of life.jerry
November 9, 2009
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