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Ken Miller in Birmingham

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Noted Brown University biologist and slayer of windmills, Kenneth Miller, came to Birmingham, Alabama, on Thursday November 5. The room was packed with what seemed to be about 200 (mostly students and some faculty). Overall, Miller displayed the affable but subliminally arrogant attitude I’ve come to expect in some academics. Miller began by giving a long list of his publications interspersed along with some obligatory self-deprecating humor, the apparent take-home message being “look at what a smart and prolific boy I am.” He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.” After giving a wholly inaccurate definition of ID as the idea that “design in the form of outside intelligent intervention is required to account for the origin of living things,” he launched into the bulk of his lecture most of which simply gave examples of common descent as “proof” of Darwinian evolution.  I must say that I was surprised by the degree to which Miller absolutely savaged ID. It’s not that he simply disagrees with ID, the substance of his message was that ID is a creationist group (no one was mentioned by name) with the Discovery Institute as its front organization working (in his words) “against scientific rationality.” The thrust of his ID comments were wholly denigrating and dismissive.  Miller later admitted that evolution was the product of “design in nature” in search of “adaptive spaces.” His discussion of design was frankly bizarre; at times he almost sounded like a Gaia proponent—I couldn’t figure out if by design he meant just some sort of unfolding or self-direction or if “design” was somehow synonymous with natural selection. The entire presentation in this regard was quite fuzzy.  There was a lot of conflation of concepts—my personal favorite being his conflation of evolution, genetics, and Gregor Mendel. Anyone listening to Miller on this would have thought that Mendel was simply carrying Darwin’s ideas forward; he did not, of course, point out that Darwin’s adherence to pangenesis and the notion of inheritance of acquired characteristics was quite different from that of Mendel. The rest was pretty predictable.

I finally did get to ask Miller a question. It was the second to last one, and Miller was pretty euphoric having hit a series of Q & A home runs from softballs pitched at T-ball speeds mostly by students. The good thing was that by the time I got to pose my question a lot of questioners had prefaced their questions with comments (mostly “thank you, thank you, for supporting theism and science,” “oh what an important struggle we have before us promoting good science, your presentation was marvelous,” etc., etc.). I started by saying that I sincerely wished that this country could get away from this overly simplistic “evolution versus creation” discourse as unhistorical and unhelpful. We talk about evolution as though Wallace and Mivart never existed. Then I said, “Dr. Miller, as you well know, Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of natural selection, broke with Darwin over the role of natural selection in creating the human mind. Wallace didn’t think it could account for it; Mivart agreed. Now these objections are still with us today. They haven’t gone away. Surely you’re familiar with the April issue of Nature in which Bolhuis and Wynne asked, ‘Can evolution explain how minds work?’. Don’t we have an educational obligation to give the WHOLE story of evolution? I mean we talk about evolution as if it was simply the story of Darwin and science on the march when, if fact, many of the original objections raised to his theory remain today. This is Whiggish history of the worst kind! How can we get past this and tell the more complete and accurate story of evolution? ” Miller replied by nodding in apparent approval, which seemed inappropriate given his presentation, but then simply didn’t answer the question. The upshot of his reply was to utter some vague generalizations about the Templeton Foundation and that he was working with them on this very thing. Huh??

Well that’s my report. I must say Miller is an engaging and powerful speaker. His points are persuasive to the uninformed and although I have no objection to his having his say in a free markeplace of ideas, I suspect that he does considerable intellectual damage where ever he goes.

Comments
I had the impression that VJT only posted the talk-origins article to make the point that the abductive reasoning used to arrive at their trivial (and questionable) conclusion, is exactly the same abductive reasoning that solidifies the intractible evidence of agency. Of course, he might have been a little more clever about making the point, but then again, he might have also understood that scofulous is an entrenched ideologue, who could find Hecho in Heaven on the bottom of his foot and still not get it.Upright BiPed
November 9, 2009
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Scrofulous: I think there are a couple of problems with your analysis. First, if NDE predicts nested heirarchy, then the Platypus (and other such oddities) falsifies NDE. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6568 That is, unless "nested heirarchy" is a trivial prediction, and NDE can produce organism lineages that fall both in and out of their heirarchical categorization - something one wouldn't expect if one is dealing with natural laws that defined essential limatations to possible modifications. Second, you claim that ID doesn't predict a nested heirarchy; but this is simply not true. ID is based on "what humans do" as an example of ID; humans definitely work in developing innovations to product design through a heirarchical, systematic process. One only need look through the development of the computer, computer programs, automobiles, etc. to find ample evidence of nested heirarchies as valid diagrams of the history of design innovation. However, the difference between an NDE and ID prediction of "nested heirarchy" would be that under ID, innovation would not be limited to what was availabe solely under the framework of a nested heirarchy; IOW, ID would also predict that there would be truly innovative, "outside the box" incorporations of design elements from non-related portions of the heirarchy. Humans breed heirarchical pedigrees of dogs or strains of plants, but can also just take a fish gene and insert it into a tomato plant if the designer (human) thinks it might move the tomato plant towards a design goal, or if the designer simply wants to experiment with something to see how it works out, what its real-world behavior would be. When you claim that the putative designer "picked" heirarchical design methodology out of a any number of methodologies, you seem to forget that ID is based on what humans actually do. The history of technologial innovation can be seen as a nested heirarchy with instances of "out of the box" innovation or design leaps. As far as I can tell by the evidence, that's exactly what we see in the fossil record, and is not something predicted by NDE. Further, it seems to me that if NDE is true, then we should have hardier/more fecund organisms that we started with, since the only differential sorting genetic information is natural selection; but the evidence shows that this doesn't appear to be the case. However, from a design perspective, if it is not particularly your desire to create more fecund/hardy organisms, but rather have a different design goal entirely, then perhaps you begin by generating very basic, hardy hardware and software and then develop it over time to produce all sorts of effects that have little or nothing whatsoever to do with "hardiness" or fecundity. The transition from the hardy, fecund bacteria to the far less hardy, far less fecund human isn't predicted by random mutation and natural selection whatsoever; the development of the human occurred in spite of all proposed NDE forces. I think that the real problem most advocates on both sides of this debate face is that the evidence is, and has been, only looked at from two perspectives; that it was either generated by a perfect, good designer, or that it was created by unintelligent, natural forces. The only design agent ID proposes as an example is human, and when one looks at the evidence through the eyes of human design, one finds a remarkable correspondence of evidence to human design proclivity.William J. Murray
November 9, 2009
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scrofulous, BTW nested hierarchy was once considered evidence for the Creator. Evolutionists stole the nested hierarchy and just changed "archetype" to "common ancestor".
One would expect a priori that such a complete change of the philosophical bias of classification would result in a radical change of classification, but this was by no means the case. There was hardly and change in method before and after Darwin, except that "archetype" was replaced by the common ancestor.-- Ernst Mayr
Simpson echoed those comments:
From their classifications alone, it is practically impossible to tell whether zoologists of the middle decades of the nineteenth century were evolutionists or not. The common ancestor was at first, and in most cases, just as hypothetical as the archetype, and the methods of inference were much the same for both, so that classification continued to develop with no immediate evidence of the revolution in principles….the hierarchy looked the same as before even if it meant something totally different.
Joseph
November 9, 2009
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vjtorly, The talk origins article on nested hierarchy is so wrong it is hard to tell where to start- but a good place is what I said above: Nested hierarchies require a direction of immutable and additive characteristics. NDE does not require such a direction. Dr Denton gpes over this in "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis". The only people who still cling to the notion are people who don't understand nested hierarchies nor the theory of evolution.Joseph
November 9, 2009
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vjtorley, Given your attention to detail in your studies, I am a bit disappointed in you. I am especially disappointed that you would quote a talk origin faq to support hypothesized "nested hierarchies". The true state of affairs is that we have ample reason to believe that any descent scenario will be severely compromised above the level of kind (as in the cichlid example). There simply isn't any overarching pattern to genetic similarity as evolutionists adamantly claim so as to infer genetic relationship amongst different animals. Do you think I am wrong in saying this? If so then Please carefully read this following article: “Why Darwin was wrong about the tree of life,” New Scientist (January 21, 2009) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/a_primer_on_the_tree_of_life_p_1.html#more Especially this following quote:
Carl Woese, a pioneer of evolutionary molecular systematics, observed that these problems extend well beyond the base of the tree of life: “Phylogenetic incongruities [conflicts] can be seen everywhere in the universal tree, from its root to the major branchings within and among the various taxa to the makeup of the primary groupings themselves.”
Stephen Meyer also testified at the Texas School Board Hearings on Textbooks, in January, that the method in which the computers are set up to draw out similarities is rife with error, since the computers are programmed with undo bias from the start, so as to draw out any similarities it can find and to ignore all the dissimilarities. But to be justified in gathering evidence in such a prejudiced manner to support evolution, so as to blatantly ignore dissimilarities, evolution must first be established as a fact in the first place! Yet clearly you cannot assume to be true what you are seeking to prove true in the gathering of your evidence. Maybe if evolution was a already overwhelmingly confirmed this method could be justified to a certain extent but evolution has never even remotely been proven as a fact. In fact there is now overwhelming evidence to suggest evolution cannot occur (Behe, Sanford). This is especially true since evolutionists have never demonstrated even the simplest of upward evolutionary change to bacteria, despite exhaustive experimentation. If evolutionists can't even do this with the "simplest" life on earth, it is clear to presuppose naturalistic processes are severely deficient in solving the question of our own origins. Thus vjtorley, since their evidence rest on such a biased sampling of the evidence, and as well I have showed you a direct quote by a pioneering expert in this area, Woese, in which both similarities and dissimilarities are given full weight of measure and the incongruities are found to be so striking that it led one researcher to say "We've just annihilated the tree of life?" ,so Why do you hold on to this shady evidence for nested hierarchies? Were you somehow unaware of the severe prejudice to which evolutionists handle evidence??? I thoroughly respect your research and have been impressed many times by your scholarship, Thus you can see why I am very disappointed that you would overlook this very important point of sampling bias from the evolutionists !bornagain77
November 9, 2009
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scrofulous, YOU missed the point. YOU need real scientific data- that you can post some scenario does not mean it can or did happen. I see you as being the problem. Especially if you think that the NDE predicts a nested hierachyJoseph
November 9, 2009
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Zach Bailey, did you have a point? ID is not anti- Common Descent. Just because I am asking for evidence for it does not mean ID is against it.Joseph
November 9, 2009
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a. NDE is true, since its predictions regarding congruent nested hierarchies are confirmed.
NDE does not predict any nested hierarchies. Nested hierarchies require a direction of immutable and additive characteristics. NDE does not require such a direction. As a matter of fact the only things the NDE "predicts" is change or stasis.Joseph
November 9, 2009
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...the great gems of Western culture and thought are inextricably linked to scientific reason and rationality. - Only a Theory, p. x Is it just my imagination, or is Ken arguing that rationality comes from science.Mung
November 8, 2009
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Beg your pardon?
As you well ought. Do you see anyone else here arguing that ID is the best explanation, or even an explanation, for the phenomena that you are presenting as an argument against ID? Please provide the quote(s).Mung
November 8, 2009
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Mung:
Yet the only one even attempting to argue that ID is a correct explanation is you!
Beg your pardon?scrofulous
November 8, 2009
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vjtorley, Thank you for that quote. It reinforces many of the points I've been trying to make in this thread. If I'm interpreting your comment correctly (and please let me know if I'm not), then: 1) you agree that the evidence points to the existence of a single nested hierarchy, and 2) you agree that this hierarchy is likely the result of a gradual, branching evolutionary process, but 3) you doubt that an undirected natural process could be responsible for the complexity found in living organisms. Is that a fair summary? If so, let me ask a further question: do you agree that of all the options open to an intelligent designer, the vast majority (like the car example from your quote) do not yield consistent nested hierarchies? P.S. In case you missed it, I responded to your comments regarding memory on the other thread.scrofulous
November 8, 2009
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It just means that ID is extremely unlikely to be the correct explanation.
Yet the only one even attempting to argue that ID is a correct explanation is you!Mung
November 8, 2009
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---scofluous: "What a disappointment. StephenB has an answer to my question — no doubt a brilliant one — but he refuses to share it until his demands are met." My first demand is that you acquaint yourself with the subject matter that you are trying to refute by reading the FAQ section about ID, about which you seem to know nothing. On the matter of your question, it doesn't accurately cover or describe the options, and I have no intention of trying to reformulate it for you so that it makes sense, especially since you are using it to avoid the really important questions that I have asked over and over again. I have provided a multitude of examples showing that Ken Miller, your hero, and the man whose scholarship and integrity you once acted as if you could defend, dissembles at every turn. You have ignored every point, so I take it from your silence that you cannot defend him after all and that you quietly agree with me that he cannot be trusted to provide even a modicum of intellectual honesty.StephenB
November 8, 2009
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Queue: Obfuscation over functional specified complex information.Upright BiPed
November 8, 2009
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scrofulous You argument for evolution does indeed have merit. I reproduce the following quote from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy :
As seen from the phylogeny in Figure 1, the predicted pattern of organisms at any given point in time can be described as "groups within groups", otherwise known as a nested hierarchy. The only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. Common descent is a genetic process in which the state of the present generation/individual is dependent only upon genetic changes that have occurred since the most recent ancestral population/individual. Therefore, gradual evolution from common ancestors must conform to the mathematics of Markov processes and Markov chains. Using Markovian mathematics, it can be rigorously proven that branching Markovian replicating systems produce nested hierarchies (Givnish and Sytsma 1997; Harris 1989; Norris 1997). For these reasons, biologists routinely use branching Markov chains to effectively model evolutionary processes, including complex genetic processes, the temporal distributions of surnames in populations (Galton and Watson 1874), and the behavior of pathogens in epidemics. Although it is trivial to classify anything subjectively in a hierarchical manner, only certain things can be classified objectively in a consistent, unique nested hierarchy. The difference drawn here between "subjective" and "objective" is crucial and requires some elaboration, and it is best illustrated by example. Different models of cars certainly could be classified hierarchically—perhaps one could classify cars first by color, then within each color by number of wheels, then within each wheel number by manufacturer, etc. However, another individual may classify the same cars first by manufacturer, then by size, then by year, then by color, etc... Because of these facts, a cladistic analysis of cars will not produce a unique, consistent, well-supported tree that displays nested hierarchies. (Emphasis mine - VJT.)
The highlighted passage employs abductive reasoning at its finest. And let me add: the only known processes that specifically generate functional specified complex information are actions by intelligent agents.vjtorley
November 8, 2009
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scofluous, I take it from your comment that you've never read any ID argument. That explains your errant comments about the motivations of "the designer" as well as your misunderstanding of nested heirarchies.Upright BiPed
November 8, 2009
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"Upright BiPed" (#88) asked "scrofulous" - "Have you ever read an ID argument as presented by a proponent of ID? I ask because you came repeatedly making comments about the motivations of the God. Have you ever read any ID literature at all? If so what was it?" Perhaps "scrofulous" read the Wedge Document, the first sentence of which is "The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God is one of the bedrock principles on which Western civilization was built." - or the second bullet under "Goals" in the Wedge Document, which says "To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God. " It's actually pretty clear what (and Who) ID is about.PaulBurnett
November 8, 2009
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And Scoff, If deep down your are kinda curious as to what Genetic Entropy is, this video will shed a little light for you: Evolution vs Genetic Entropy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmbRbyv2PA0bornagain77
November 8, 2009
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Hey Scoff, I just found this quote by John Sanford, a former professor of Genetics and inventor of the "Gene Gun", that relates directly your argument: ‘Mutations are word-processing errors in the cell’s instruction manual. Mutations systematically destroy genetic information—even as word processing errors destroy written information. While there are some rare beneficial mutations (even as there are rare beneficial misspellings),1 bad mutations outnumber them—perhaps by a million to one. So even allowing for beneficial mutations, the net effect of mutation is overwhelmingly deleterious. The more the mutations, the less the information. This is fundamental to the mutation process.’ John Sanford – Professor Genetics Cornell – Inventor Of The Gene Gun and Pathogenic Derived Resistance http://creation.com/geneticist-evolution-impossiblebornagain77
November 8, 2009
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Scoff, reality Check Scoff!!! you have no empirical evidence for nested hierarchies to allude to! Please read this following article carefully. “Why Darwin was wrong about the tree of life,” New Scientist (January 21, 2009) Excerpt: Even among higher organisms, “the problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories,”,,,“despite the amount of data and breadth of taxa analyzed, relationships among most [animal] phyla remained unresolved.” ,,,,Carl Woese, a pioneer of evolutionary molecular systematics, observed that these problems extend well beyond the base of the tree of life: “Phylogenetic incongruities [conflicts] can be seen everywhere in the universal tree, from its root to the major branchings within and among the various taxa to the makeup of the primary groupings themselves.”,,, “We’ve just annihilated the (Darwin’s) tree of life.”http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/a_primer_on_the_tree_of_life_p_1.html#more Do you dispute that article Scoff? Read this part carefully on page 4 I believe: “We’ve just annihilated the (Darwin’s) tree of life.” That ain't an ID article Scoff!!! If you do dispute the article go tell the leading researchers who contributed to the article to straighten it out, but please don't pretend you have any foundation to make such dogmatic claims for nested hierarchies,,,bornagain77
November 8, 2009
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Upright Biped:
I ask because you came repeatedly making comments about the motivations of the God.
Don't you mean the designer? Read carefully. The question does not require you to ascertain God's the designer's motivations:
Which conclusion better fits the evidence? a. NDE is true, since its predictions regarding congruent nested hierarchies are confirmed. b. ID is true, and it just so happens that the designer, for unknown reasons, happened to pick a design method, out of a zillion possibilities, that happens to match the predictions of NDE. Why? Who knows? The designer works in mysterious ways. Which of these is the better explanation, Stephen?
scrofulous
November 8, 2009
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EDIT: I ask because you came repeatedly making comments about the motivations of the God [of the Bible].Upright BiPed
November 8, 2009
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scrofulous, Have you ever read an ID argument as presented by a proponent of ID? I ask because you came repeatedly making comments about the motivations of the God. Have you ever read any ID literature at all? If so what was it?Upright BiPed
November 8, 2009
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What a disappointment. StephenB has an answer to my question -- no doubt a brilliant one -- but he refuses to share it until his demands are met. C'mon, Stephen. If not for me, do it for your fellow ID supporters who have proven unable to answer my question. Don't leave them hanging.scrofulous
November 8, 2009
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avocationist:
Where does Spetner actually say that any change equals a loss?
In the quote that bornagain supplied:
The neo-Darwinians would like us to believe that large evolutionary changes can result from a series of small events if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose information they can’t be the steps in the kind of evolution the neo-Darwin theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many mutations there are. Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume. [Emphases mine]
If Spetner doesn't believe that every mutation involves a loss of information, then why does he base his argument on that assumption?scrofulous
November 8, 2009
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But did Spetner claim that any point mutation necessarily involves a loss of information? It's been a long time since I read him, but I recall that in each of his examples, he explains exactly why the mutation results in less information and capacity of the organism, even though this loss may allow it to survive an antibiotic (for example). Where does Spetner actually say that any change equals a loss?avocationist
November 8, 2009
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bornagain77:
Scoff it really is very funny for you to leave the realm of empirical science and to allude to chizzlewhup to make your case,,,
How do you know that 'chizzlewhup' is outside "the realm of empirical science" when I haven't defined it? Your comment makes me think of someone who is arguing over arithmetic. When his opponent presents an equation like "x + 3 = 10", he complains:
It really is very funny for you to leave the realm of numbers and to allude to letters to make your case,,, I am giggling right now!!!
bornagain77, continuing:
Oh now you are so desperate to protect your indefensible position as to quote scripture,,, and tell me scoff just why do you not believe the rest of the Bible that says you are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God?
Because the evidence is against it. The Bible is generally untrustworthy, though it has some truths in it. I just find it interesting when folks who claim to believe the Bible nevertheless choose to ignore what it says.scrofulous
November 8, 2009
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----scrofulous: "I’m not surprised that you’re avoiding the question I raised in #72. I have yet to encounter an ID supporter who could answer." If you reread what was said, you will find that I posed my question first and you used yours as an evasion. I don't accomodate evasionary questions until my original questions are answered. Besides, there is much more at stake here than you even begin to realize. Since you choose not to approach the relevant subject matter that I introduced earlier, perhaps you can weigh into another topic equally relevant to the thread. Miller claims to have reconciled his Christianity, which posits a purposeful creation, with his science. At the same time, he insists that “evolution works without either plan or purpose”---that is its “random and undirected.” At Dover, however, he admitted that such conclusions about meaning and purpose are “beyond the realm of science." If that is the case, why does he continue to characterize the issue that way? At Dover, He testified that he “immediately took it out of the book” after the third edition. Since that is not the case, we have to ask this question: Did he lie under oath? As Casey Luskin has pointed out, Miller tried to blame this language on his co-author, Joseph Levine, stating that “this was a statement that Joe inserted.” That, of course, is another little fib inasmuch as he says the same thing in his newest book. Here are some of his quotes more recent quotes: ----“random, undirected process of mutation had produced the ‘right’ kind of variation for natural selection to act upon” (p. 51) ----"a random, undirected process like evolution" (p. 102) ----"blind, random, undirected evolution [could] have produced such an intricate set of structures and organs, so brilliantly dedicated to a single purpose" (p. 137) ----"the random, undirected processes of mutation and natural selection" (p. 145) ----"Evolution is a natural process, and natural processes are undirected" (p. 244) He as also agreed with Simpson’s remark that evolution is a purposeless, mindless process THAT DID NOT HAVE MAN IN MIND. Further, in his book with Levine, he writes this: ”Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless--a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, THERE WAS NO DIVINE PLAN TO GUIDE US. Further still, he claims to believe in the Bible, which teaches that the Creator’s existence is evident from his design. Yet, like all dutiful Darwinists, Miller insists that design is an illusion. How do you reconcile Miller’s radical Darwinism with his self proclaimed Catholic Christianity? How can you even defend the proposition that he is intellectually honest in any way? If Miller has “reconciled” his religion with his science, why has he subordinated his religion to his Darwinist ideology? How do you defend your unwillingness to provide a rational defense for him? Do you think I am going to go off on a safari with you about "nesting" will all this hanging in the background. Get real.StephenB
November 8, 2009
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Oh now you are so desperate to protect your indefensible position as to quote scripture,,, and tell me scoff just why do you not believe the rest of the Bible that says you are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God?bornagain77
November 8, 2009
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