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Signal to Noise: A Critical Analysis of Active Information

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The following is a guest post by Aurelio Smith. I have invited him to present a critique of Active Information in a more prominent place at UD so we can have a good discussion of Active Information’s strengths and weaknesses. The rest of this post is his.


My thanks to johnnyb for offering to host a post from me on the subject of ‘active information’. I’ve been following the fortunes of the ID community for some time now and I was a little disappointed that the recent publications of the ‘triumvirate’ of William Dembski, Robert Marks and their newly promoted postgrad Doctor Ewert have received less attention here than their efforts deserve. The thrust of their assault on Darwinian evolution has developed from earlier concepts such as “complex specified information” and “conservation of information” and they now introduce “Algorithmic Specified Complexity” and “Active information”.

Some history.

William Demsbski gives an account of the birth of his ideas here:

…in the summer of 1992, I had spent several weeks with Stephen Meyer and Paul Nelson in Cambridge, England, to explore how to revive design as a scientific concept, using it to elucidate biological origins as well as to refute the dominant materialistic understanding of evolution (i.e., neo-Darwinism). Such a project, if it were to be successful, clearly could not merely give a facelift to existing design arguments for the existence of God. Indeed, any designer that would be the conclusion of such statistical reasoning would have to be far more generic than any God of ethical monotheism. At the same time, the actual logic for dealing with small probabilities seemed less to directly implicate a designing intelligence than to sweep the field clear of chance alternatives. The underlying logic therefore was not a direct argument for design but an indirect circumstantial argument that implicated design by eliminating what it was not.*

[*my emphasis]

Dembski published The Design Inference in 1998, where the ‘explanatory filter’ was proposed as a tool to separate ‘design’ from ‘law’ and ‘chance’. The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes. Wesley Elsberry’s review points out the failure to include unknown causation as a possibility. Dembski acknowledges the problem in a comment in a thread at Uncommon Descent – Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson

I wish I had time to respond adequately to this thread, but I’ve got a book to deliver to my publisher January 1 — so I don’t. Briefly: (1) I’ve pretty much dispensed with the EF. It suggests that chance, necessity, and design are mutually exclusive. They are not. Straight CSI [Complex Specified Information] is clearer as a criterion for design detection.* (2) The challenge for determining whether a biological structure exhibits CSI is to find one that’s simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed but complex enough so that it does indeed exhibit CSI. The example in NFL ch. 5 doesn’t fit the bill. The example from Doug Axe in ch. 7 of THE DESIGN OF LIFE (www.thedesignoflife.net) is much stronger. (3) As for the applicability of CSI to biology, see the chapter on “assertibility” in my book THE DESIGN REVOLUTION. (4) For my most up-to-date treatment of CSI, see “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence” at http://www.designinference.com. (5) There’s a paper Bob Marks and I just got accepted which shows that evolutionary search can never escape the CSI problem (even if, say, the flagellum was built by a selection-variation mechanism, CSI still had to be fed in).

[*my emphasis]

Active information.

Dr Dembski has posted some background to his association with Professor Robert Marks and The Evolutionary Informatics Lab which has resulted in the publication of several papers with active information as an important theme. A notable collaborator is Winston Ewert Ph D, whose master’s thesis was entitled: Studies of Active Information in Search where, in chapter four, he criticizes Lenski et al., 2003, saying:

[quoting Lenski et al., 2003]“Some readers might suggest that we stacked the deck by studying the evolution of a complex feature that could be built on simpler functions that were also useful.”

This, indeed, is what the writers of Avida software do when using stair step active information.

What is active information?

In A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search, Dembski, Ewert and Marks (henceforth DEM) give their definition of “active information” as follows:

In comparing null and alternative searches, it is convenient to convert probabilities to information measures (note that all logarithms in the sequel are to the base 2). We therefore define the endogenous information IΩ as –log(p), which measures the inherent difficulty of a blind or null search in exploring the underlying search space Ω to locate the target T. We then define the exogenous information IS as –log(q), which measures the difficulty of the alternative search S in locating the target T. And finally, we define the active information I+ as the difference between the endogenous and exogenous information: I+ = IΩ – IS = log(q/p). Active information therefore measures the information that must be added (hence the plus sign in I+) on top of a null search to raise an alternative search’s probability of success by a factor of q/p. [excuse formatting errors in mathematical symbols]

They conclude with an analogy from the financial world, saying:

Conservation of information shows that active information, like money, obeys strict accounting principles. Just as banks need money to power their financial instruments, so searches need active information to power their success in locating targets. Moreover, just as banks must balance their books, so searches, in successfully locating targets, must balance their books — they cannot output more information than was inputted.

In an article at the Pandas Thumb website Professor Joe Felsenstein, in collaboration with Tom English, presents some criticism of of the quoted DEM paper. Felsenstein helpfully posts an “abstract in the comments, saying:

Dembski, Ewert and Marks have presented a general theory of “search” that has a theorem that, averaged over all possible searches, one does not do better than uninformed guessing (choosing a genotype at random, say). The implication is that one needs a Designer who chooses a search in order to have an evolutionary process that succeeds in finding genotypes of improved fitness. But there are two things wrong with that argument: 1. Their space of “searches” includes all sorts of crazy searches that do not prefer to go to genotypes of higher fitness – most of them may prefer genotypes of lower fitness or just ignore fitness when searching. Once you require that there be genotypes that have different fitnesses, so that fitness affects their reproduction, you have narrowed down their “searches” to ones that have a much higher probability of finding genotypes that have higher fitness. 2. In addition, the laws of physics will mandate that small changes in genotype will usually not cause huge changes in fitness. This is true because the weakness of action at a distance means that many genes will not interact strongly with each other. So the fitness surface is smoother than a random assignment of fitnesses to genotypes. That makes it much more possible to find genotypes that have higher fitness. Taking these two considerations into account – that an evolutionary search has genotypes whose fitnesses affect their reproduction, and that the laws of physics militate against strong interactions being typical – we see that Dembski, Ewert, and Marks’s argument does not show that Design is needed to have an evolutionary system that can improve fitness.

I note that there is an acknowledgement in the DEM paper as follows:

The authors thank Peter Olofsson and Dietmar Eben for helpful feedback on previous work of the Evolutionary Informatics Lab, feedback that has found its way into this paper.

This is the same Professor Olofsson referred to in the “Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson thread mentioned above. Dietmar Eben has blogged extensively on DEM’s ideas.

I’m not qualified to criticize the mathematics but I see no need to doubt that it is sound. However what I do query is whether the model is relevant to biology. The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context. Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival. Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide. If anything is designing, it is the environment. I could suggest an anthropomorphism: the environment and its effects on the change in allele frequency are “a voice in the sky” whispering “warmer” or “colder”. There is the source of the active information.

I was recently made aware that this classic paper by Sewall Wright, The Roles of Mutation, Inbeeding, Crossbreeding and Selection in Evolution, is available online. Rather than demonstrating the “active information” in Dawkins’ Weasel program, which Dawkins freely confirmed is a poor model for evolution with its targeted search, would DEM like to look at Wright’s paper for a more realistic evolutionary model?

Perhaps, in conclusion, I should emphasize two things. Firstly, I am utterly opposed to censorship and suppression. I strongly support the free exchange of ideas and information. I strongly support any genuine efforts to develop “Intelligent Design” into a formal scientific endeavor. Jon Bartlett sees advantages in the field of computer science and I say good luck to him. Secondly, “fitness landscape” models are not accurate representations of the chaotic, fluid, interactive nature of the real environment . The environment is a kaleidoscope of constant change. Fitness peaks can erode and erupt. Had Sewall Wright been developing his ideas in the computer age, his laboriously hand-crafted diagrams would, I’m sure, have evolved (deliberate pun) into exquisite computer models.

References

History: Wm Dembski 1998 the Design inference, explanatory filter ( Elsberry criticizes the book for using a definition of “design” as what is left over after chance and regularity have been eliminated)

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

Elsberry & Shallit

Theft over Toil John S. Wilkins, Wesley R. Elsberry 2001

Computational capacity of the universe Seth Lloyd 2001

Information Theory, Evolutionary Computation, and
Dembski’s “Complex Specified Information”
Elsberry and Shallit 2003

Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence by William A. Dembski August 15, 2005

Evaluation of Evolutionary and Genetic
Optimizers: No Free Lunch
Tom English 1996

Conservation of Information Made Simple William Dembski 2012

…evolutionary biologists possessing the mathematical tools to understand search are typically happy to characterize evolution as a form of search. And even those with minimal knowledge of the relevant mathematics fall into this way of thinking.

Take Brown University’s Kenneth Miller, a cell biologist whose knowledge of the relevant mathematics I don’t know. Miller, in attempting to refute ID, regularly describes examples of experiments in which some biological structure is knocked out along with its function, and then, under selection pressure, a replacement structure is evolved that recovers the function. What makes these experiments significant for Miller is that they are readily replicable, which means that the same systems with the same knockouts will undergo the same recovery under the same suitable selection regime. In our characterization of search, we would say the search for structures that recover function in these knockout experiments achieves success with high probability.

Suppose, to be a bit more concrete, we imagine a bacterium capable of producing a particular enzyme that allows it to live off a given food source. Next, we disable that enzyme, not by removing it entirely but by, say, changing a DNA base in the coding region for this protein, thus changing an amino acid in the enzyme and thereby drastically lowering its catalytic activity in processing the food source. Granted, this example is a bit stylized, but it captures the type of experiment Miller regularly cites.

So, taking these modified bacteria, the experimenter now subjects them to a selection regime that starts them off on a food source for which they don’t need the enzyme that’s been disabled. But, over time, they get more and more of the food source for which the enzyme is required and less and less of other food sources for which they don’t need it. Under such a selection regime, the bacterium must either evolve the capability of processing the food for which previously it needed the enzyme, presumably by mutating the damaged DNA that originally coded for the enzyme and thereby recovering the enzyme, or starve and die.

So where’s the problem for evolution in all this? Granted, the selection regime here is a case of artificial selection — the experimenter is carefully controlling the bacterial environment, deciding which bacteria get to live or die*. [(* My emphasis) Not correct – confirmed by Richard Lenski – AF] But nature seems quite capable of doing something similar. Nylon, for instance, is a synthetic product invented by humans in 1935, and thus was absent from bacteria for most of their history. And yet, bacteria have evolved the ability to digest nylon by developing the enzyme nylonase. Yes, these bacteria are gaining new information, but they are gaining it from their environments, environments that, presumably, need not be subject to intelligent guidance. No experimenter, applying artificial selection, for instance, set out to produce nylonase.

To see that there remains a problem for evolution in all this, we need to look more closely at the connection between search and information and how these concepts figure into a precise formulation of conservation of information. Once we have done this, we’ll return to the Miller-type examples of evolution to see why evolutionary processes do not, and indeed cannot, create the information needed by biological systems. Most biological configuration spaces are so large and the targets they present are so small that blind search (which ultimately, on materialist principles, reduces to the jostling of life’s molecular constituents through forces of attraction and repulsion) is highly unlikely to succeed. As a consequence, some alternative search is required if the target is to stand a reasonable chance of being located. Evolutionary processes driven by natural selection constitute such an alternative search. Yes, they do a much better job than blind search. But at a cost — an informational cost, a cost these processes have to pay but which they are incapable of earning on their own.

Meaningful Information

Meaningful Information Paul Vit´anyi 2004

The question arises whether it is possible to separate meaningful information from accidental information, and if so, how.

Evolutionary Informatics Publications

Conservation of Information in Relative Search Performance Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Algorithmic Specified Complexity
in the Game of Life
Ewert, Dembski, Marks 2015

Digital Irreducible Complexity: A Survey of Irreducible
Complexity in Computer Simulations
Ewert 2014

On the Improbability of Algorithmic Specified
Complexity
Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Actually, in my talk, I work off of three papers, the last of which Felsenstein fails to cite and which is the most general, avoiding the assumption of uniform probability to which Felsenstein objects.

EN&V

Dietmar Eben’s blog

Dieb review “cost of successful search

Conservation of Information in Search:
Measuring the Cost of Success
Dembski, Marks 2009

The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of
Higher Level Search
Dembski, Marks 2009

Has Natural Selection Been Refuted? The Arguments of William Dembski Joe Felsenstein 2007

In conclusion
Dembski argues that there are theorems that prevent natural selection from explaining the adaptations that we see. His arguments do not work. There can be no theorem saying that adaptive information is conserved and cannot be increased by natural selection. Gene frequency changes caused by natural selection can be shown to generate specified information. The No Free Lunch theorem is mathematically correct, but it is inapplicable to real biology. Specified information, including complex specified information, can be generated by natural selection without needing to be “smuggled in”. When we see adaptation, we are not looking at positive evidence of billions and trillions of interventions by a designer. Dembski has not refuted natural selection as an explanation for adaptation.

ON DEMBSKI’S LAW OF CONSERVATION OF INFORMATION Erik Tellgren 2002

Comments
mike1962: One can ask, and get the proper answer, to the question, “who built Stonehenge” without explaining how the builders came into existence. The evidence indicates it was a peculiar species of tool-using ape that inhabits the third rock from the Sun, already known for building such structures. mike1962: What examples can you provide? A canonical example is the mammalian middle ear.Zachriel
April 29, 2015
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@Joe#499 I wrote:
Getting back to the thread, Darwinism has always been the idea that knowledge genuinely grows, though variation and selection.
Joe:
Test it, then.
You mean positively prove it? That's not how science works, in practice. What we do is conjecture theories about how the world works designed solve specific problems, then criticize them and discard errors we find. And if some other theory comes along that not only explains the same phenomena just as well, but explains it better and more of it, then we discard the previous one all together. The core of Darwin's original idea has withstood over 150 years of significant criticism. That we cannot positively prove evolution is a fail problem for the theory it is an example of claiming we cannot make any progress at all. Joe:
But “random to any specific problem to solve” does not = happenstance and undirected.
Neo-Darwinism is an alternative, non-authoritative source of knowledge, as defined by Popper, which genuinely creates new non-explanatory knowledge that did not exist before and was not present at the outset. It's not completely random because It's an error correcting process in which non-explanatory knowledge is created. This is outlined in the referenced paper, in detail, expressed in constructor theoretic terms. From the abstract:
To this end I apply Constructor Theory’s new mode of explanation to provide an exact formulation of the appearance of design, of no-design laws, and of the logic of self-reproduction and natural selection, within fundamental physics. I conclude that self-reproduction, replication and natural selection are possible under no-design laws, the only non-trivial condition being that they allow digital information to be physically instantiated. This has an exact characterisation in the constructor theory of information. I also show that under no-design laws an accurate replicator requires the existence of a “vehicle” constituting, together with the replicator, a self-reproducer.
Joe:
Any direction by the program would itself be knowledge in the form of ones and zeros. That's my point.
And my point is, any such program would itself be knowledge about what outputs to generate from a set of inputs. Even if that were a range of potentially successful variations, as opposed to some other range of variations that would not be potentially successful. Those sets of variations would be knowledge about transformations of matter, just as each cell contains the knowledge of what transformations of matter needed to occur to make a copy of itself. However, the term "Active Information" is incredibly vague. As such, it's unclear how you can "add it" to non-active information, how it's different from non-active information, etc. . IOW, just as evolution is the origin of the knowledge of what transformations to perform to make a copy of an organism, it also is the origin of the knowledge for what responses a cell should make under a set of particular conditions. in both cases, that knowledge was genuinely created (did not exist at the outset). You would be correct in stating evolutionary theory alone cannot provide a reductionist, step by step process, which people seem to be demanding here. However, not only does the paper explain why this is the case, it then goes on to provides just such a process in constructor theoretic terms.
In contrast, actual gene-replication is an impressively accurate physical trans- formation, albeit imperfect. But even more striking is that living cells can self-reproduce to high accuracy in a variety of environments, reconstructng the vehicle afresh, under the control of the genes, in all the intricate details necessary for gene replication. This is prima facie problematic under no-design laws: how can those processes be so accurate, without their design being encoded in the laws of physics? This is why some physicists - notably, Wigner and Bohm, [12], [13] - have even claimed that accurate self-reproduction of an organism with the appearance of design requires the laws of motion to be “tailored” for the purpose – i.e., they must contain its design [12]. These claims, stemming from the tradition of incredulity that living entities can be scientifically explained, [14], highlight a problem. The theory of evolution must be supplemented by a theory that those physical processes upon which it relies are provably compatible with no-design laws of physics. No such theory has been proposed; and those claims have not been properly refuted. Indeed, the central problem here – i.e., whether and under what circumstances accurate self-reproduction and replication are compatible with no- design laws – is awkward to formulate in the prevailing conception of fundamental physics, which expresses everything in terms of predictions given some initial conditions and laws of motion. This mode of explanation can only approximately express emergent notions such as the appearance of design, no-design laws, etc.
IOW, constructor theory provides the means by which evolutionary theory can be formulated in a very specific, detailed way.
To overcome these problems I resort to a newly proposed theory of physics, constructor theory. [16, 17, 18]. It provides a new mode of explanation, expressing all laws as statements about which transformations are possible, which are impossible and why. This brings counterfactual statements into fundamental physics, which is key to the solution. The explanation provided by the theory of evolution is already constructor-theoretic: it is possible that the appearance of design has been brought about without intentionally being designed; so is our problem: are the physical processes essential to the theory of evolution - i.e., self- reproduction, replication and natural selection - possible under no-design laws? I shall show that they are (in section 2-3) provided that those laws of physics allow the existence of media that can instantiate (digital) information (plus enough time and energy). Information has an exact physical characterisation in the constructor theory of information [17]. I also show that under no-design laws an accurate self-reproducer requires an accurate (i.e., high-fidelity) replicator, and vice versa. Thus, the replicator-vehicle logic von Neumann envisaged is here shown to be necessary for accurate self-reproduction to be possible under such laws. This provides physical foundations for the relation between “metabolism” and replication (as de- fined by Dyson, [10]). In addition, that vehicles are necessary to high-quality replicators under our laws of physics (despite replicators being the conceptual pillar of evolutionary theory), informs the current debate about the necessity of organisms.
Joe wrote:
SEARCH is the key word. We answer those question via investigation. ID says that information is there so all we have to do is flesh it out.
So, to answer my question, rather than the knowledge of what variations to make under specific conditions existing in the laws of physics at the outset, it was in the cell, at the outset. Is that what you're suggesting?Popperian
April 29, 2015
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Joe Given the first couple of dozen plus responses above and the round-up in 304 -- which corrects many levels of fallacy in AS' initial post and onward remarks, particularly an attempt to sweep corrections off the table at 250 -- and clip at 313, could you obtain the EL clip for me? For if your summary is accurate, she and those echoing her are willfully speaking in disregard to easily accessible and even highlighted truth, in hopes that their misrepresentations and false suggestions will be perceived as true. I have documented that in fact active info, per the opening words of the 2010 Marks-Dembski paper, exists in the immediate context of blind, needle in haystack search process. That, given that a search is a sample from a config space of cardinality W, the searches therefore come from a space of cardinality 2^W which makes it instantly plausible that search for a golden search is at least as hard as direct flat random search. Therefore use of such as a yardstick is reasonable and i/l/o the needle in haystack circumstances, on avg blind searches will not outperform the hopeless failure of flat vrandom search. Thus, it is reasonable to assess the impact of injected active info on search from the degree of over-performance. Which, is the active info metric. But we do not need to go there, the simple circumstance of extremely small sample due to want of atomic and temporal resources on a sol system or observed cosmos scale makes it maximally implausible that such blind samples will hit on deeply isolated narrow zones such as FSCO/I naturally imposes. This, for need of wiring diagram specificity and complexity to achieve function. Likewise, to assume away the challenge of finding shorelines of function and imposing neatly behaved fitness landscape architectures in the teeth of evidence of roughness, is to beg big questions. The fact remains that on a trillion item base, the only empirically confirmed adequate cause of FSCO/I is intelligently directed configuration. AKA design. Where, the reality of FSCO/I is not in doubt and objectors are directed to Orgel and Wicken for antecedents to this descriptive summary. I find that we are not dealing with anything that resembles genuine discussion on merits. Which, needs to be recognised. KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
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Too funny- Lizzie ran back to TSZ and declared that no one wants to support Active Information as an ID argument- she hasn't even demonstrated that she understands what active information is! Heck she thinks that CAs simulate natural selection- that is how desperately ignorant she is.Joe
April 29, 2015
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Popp:
However, Darwin has since provided such a theory: complexity emerges from variation and selection.
LoL! No one is arguing against mere complexity and Darwin's "theory" still remains untested.Joe
April 29, 2015
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Bob O'H- The whole point is that GAs do NOT simulate natural selection. Thank you for admitting that they do not. Elizabeth Liddle thinks that they do model unguided evolution. Perhaps you could straighten her out as she won't listen to us.Joe
April 29, 2015
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Bob O'H: Once something is made of an arranged cluster of parts, it is possible to consider the set of clustered or scattered arrangements, and to reduce that informationally to a structured set of y/n q's that as a string specifically describes any particular arrangement. From this we have a configuration space. A blind walk across that space -- whether connected, a dust or a combination -- is then equivalent to a blind, needle in haystack search. From this, we may draw conclusions on the feasibility or otherwise of stumbling on shorelines of function amidst the zones of non function, i.e. the search for T in W is relevant. Where, for FSCO/I to be relevant the space size metric on description length is at least 500 - 1,000 bits, relative to gamut of sol system or the observed cosmos. The conclusion per straw to stack back of envelope calc, is that beyond this level it is maximally implausible that proposed atomic and temporal resources could credibly find such a zone. So, the analysis on blind needle in haystack search is relevant, and highlights the core issue for OOL and for OO body plans: finding shorelines of function in beyond astrinomical config spaces. Discussions on conveniently smooth fitness metric islands of function therefore beg two questions, getting to such shorelines, and roughness per results from Axe etc. We know protein fold domains are deeply isolated and structurally not accessible stepwise, we know there are thousands of such, we know that a great many are small in number of proteins and that many life forms have such isolated cases that presumably closely related organisms do not. The search challenge is real, serious and un-answered. It points to active info as likely cause of evident outperformance of blind needle in haystack search. It is ironic, too, given iconic Weasel etc and genetic algorithms and the like, used to promote the claimed feasibility of evolution, that suddenly we hear no evo is not in material part about blind search. KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
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Mung @ 489 - Can you give specifics and references to what you're saying? It's difficult to respond otherwise. One possible source of confusion is that GAs are used as search algorithms in computer science. But this does not necessarily mean that evolution is a search itself. The idea of a GA has been re-purposed.Bob O'H
April 29, 2015
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Popperian: Can you kindly provide say a 6,000 word or thereabouts feature article length essay, that -- without lit bluffs etc -- cogently summarises on evidence that is observational and warrants the causal adequacy claim of darwinist and extended claimed mechanisms across the tree of life, from root -- OOL onward to trunk [to LUA] and main branches [OO Body Plans], thence onwards to us? (Take M62's questions as implied in this -- thanks M62.) This is of course the Darwinist essay challenge of 2 1/2 years standing, which is still open. No truly serious response has ever been received. There is a UD category on this. KF PS: My posting of that challenge is a key part of the backstory on a lot of things, onlookers.kairosfocus
April 29, 2015
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Popperian, Take an Abu 6500 C3 reel, i/l/o its FSCO/I. Designed. That is an adequate causal inference regarding the reel. Take a cell in a human body, FSCO/I. Likewise what we may infer of the original cell. Design would be a very important conclusion regardless of ontological status of designers of cells. Within 100 years, based on progress to Venter et al, we will be able to do it. Take now, the fine tuned, observed cosmos that is set to a locally very deply isolated operating point that enables C-chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life. Even through a multiverse, this points to a designer capable of building a cosmos. A design explanation for the particular case before us is a significant part of its back story, regardless of other onward discussions. As is a commonplace in science and other serious endeavours. One gets the impression, objection for the sake of objection, regardless of falling into selective hyperskepticism or even burning down whole classes of reasoning. That, is not a normal behaviour pattern and bespeaks deep ideological problems. Now, shift mental gears to address matters ontological and the like. Let me clip a recent OP in which I did this. I do so, not because I expect any better responsiveness, but for record for the 99% who do not comment, now and hereafter. This replies to AS in the context of his attacks on the reasonableness of ethical theism. It becomes important as this is a case of the reasonableness of reasoning based on a root necessary being as a terminal explanation of reality, as a reasonable option. That is, the objection that design implies infinite regress or circularity collapses once we move to worldviews foundations reasoning. And such an infinite regress of causes argument is inherently of that character:
https://uncommondescent.com/religion/as-vs-eyewitness-experience-non-testimonial-evidence-and-the-reasonableness-of-theism/ 1: A world, patently exists. 2: Nothing, denotes just that, non-being. 3: A genuine nothing, can have no causal capacity. 4: If ever there were an utter nothing, that is exactly what would forever obtain. 5: But, per 1, we and a world exist, so there was always something. 6: This raises the issue of modes of being, first possible vs impossible. 7: A possible being would exist if a relevant state of affairs were realised, e.g. heat + fuel + oxidiser + chain rxn –> fire (a causal process, showing fire to depend on external enabling factors) Fire_tetrahedron [Image] 8: An impossible being such as a square circle has contradictory core characteristics and cannot be in any possible world. (Worlds being patently possible as one is actual.) 9: Of possible beings, we see contingent ones, e.g. fires. This also highlights that if something begins, there are circumstances under which it may not be, and so, it is contingent and is caused as the fire illustrates. 10: Our observed cosmos had a beginning and is caused. This implies a deeper root of being, as necessarily, something always was. 11: Another possible mode of being is a necessary being. To see such, consider a candidate being that has no dependence on external, on/off enabling factors. 12: Such (if actual) has no beginning and cannot end, it is either impossible or actual and would exist in any possible world. For instance, a square circle is impossible, One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time [Image] . . . but there is no possible world in which twoness does not exist. 13: To see such, begin with the set that collects nothing and proceed: { } –> 0 {0} –> 1 {0, 1} –> 2 Etc. 14: We thus see on analysis of being, that we have possible vs impossible and of possible beings, contingent vs necessary. 15: Also, that of serious candidate necessary beings, they will either be impossible or actual in any possible world. That’s the only way they can be, they have to be in the [world-]substructure in some way so that once a world can exist they are there necessarily. 16: Something like a flying spaghetti monster or the like, is contingent [here, not least as composed of parts and materials], and is not a serious candidate. (Cf also the discussions in the linked thread for other parodies and why they fail.) Flying Spaghetti Monster Creation of Adam [Image] 17: By contrast, God is a serious candidate necessary being, The Eternal Root of being. Where, a necessary being root of reality is the best class of candidates to always have been. 18: The choice, as discussed in the already linked, is between God as impossible or as actual. Where, there is no good reason to see God as impossible, or not a serious candidate to be a necessary being, or to be contingent, etc. 19: So, to deny God is to imply and to need to shoulder the burden of showing God impossible. [U/D April 4, 2015: We can for illustrative instance cf. a form of Godel's argument, demonstrated to be valid:] godel_ont_valid [Image] 20: Moreover, we find ourselves under moral government, to be under OUGHT. 21: This, post the valid part of Hume’s guillotine argument (on pain of the absurdity of ultimate amorality and might/manipulation makes ‘right’) implies that there is a world foundational IS that properly bears the weight of OUGHT. 22: Across many centuries of debates, there is only one serious candidate: the inherently good, eternal creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of loyalty, respect, service through doing the good and even worship. 23: Where in this course of argument, no recourse has been had to specifically religious experiences or testimony of same, or to religious traditions; we here have what has been called the God of the philosophers, with more than adequate reason to accept his reality such that it is not delusional or immature to be a theist or to adhere to ethical theism. 24: Where, ironically, we here see exposed, precisely the emotional appeal and hostility of too many who reject and dismiss the reality of God (and of our being under moral government) without adequate reason. So, it would seem the shoe is rather on the other foot.
Objection fails. KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
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Popperian: Assuming the only sources of “design” is a designer because we had never observed any but designers designing things in the past, and had no better explanation at the time, is bad philosophy.
One can ask, and get the proper answer, to the question, "who built Stonehenge" without explaining how the builders came into existence.
Darwin has since provided such a theory: complexity emerges from variation and selection.
What examples can you provide? Also... How many mutations, what kind, and in what order, does it take to turn a cow into a whale? Or a proto-Chimp brain into a human brain? What are the quantifiable limits to the complexity that can be generated by the processes described by the Modern Synthesis?mike1962
April 28, 2015
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@kf#506 KF, my point is, regardless if we lacked of a better explanation now, as Paley did then, his designer still doesn't actually solve the problem. It merely pushes it up a level without improving it. As such, it fails. Nor am I changing the subject. Assuming the only sources of "design" is a designer because we had never observed any but designers designing things in the past, and had no better explanation at the time, is bad philosophy. However, Darwin has since provided such a theory: complexity emerges from variation and selection. And that theory has withstood an overwhelming amount of criticism. On the other hand, you're appealing to is the idea that designers have this property of "design", as if it's a irreducible primitive which we cannot make progress. But that's exactly what we have done. Make progress. IOW, you're denying that progress has been made on multiple levels in multiple fields including epistemology, information, etc.. And in many cases, it's not just any denial, but denying that we can even make progress in those fields. in practice. At all. To use an analogy, we're busy making progress on details about a moving train, such as it's exact departure time, exactly how many people are on board, how fast it's traveling, when it will arrive, etc. While, at the very same time, you're response is to deny that we can even say there is a train at all or that it even left the station.Popperian
April 28, 2015
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Well darn. I was sort of hoping that truthbringer would eventually bring some truth. So disappointed.Mung
April 28, 2015
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TB has been shown the exit.truthbringer
April 28, 2015
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PS: I just noticed, this month is the 150th anniversary of that horrific event, the cold blooded murder of a sitting US President by a rage-fuelled fanatic. It would do many a lot of good to ponder the account at Wikipedia as a quick first reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Abraham_Lincolnkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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TB, you seem to insist on abusive behaviour. I therefore point out that you yourself are a clear example -- and likely a chief one -- of the long term problem of fever swamp new atheistical cyberstalking and abusive web trollery cossetted by too many of the more genteel objectors to design theory, for far too long. I have no need to try to prove to you or your ilk what you likely know from the inside anyway on the recent escalation to what is likely to be on the ground stalking targetting even remote relatives, as well as traipsing in on an abuse of privilege case; recently removed from the web by a responsible editor with no thanks to you and/or your ilk, due to relevant UK law and natural justice. If you will not acknowledge that stalking, outing and target-painting amounts to: we know you, where you are, those you care for and where they are, all of which are implicit threats, then that simply shows just how dangerously hostile you and your ilk are. And those who will not police their fora and sites to stop such become enablers. The responsible authorities here have been and are being briefed, and the leadership of UD blog are in full possession of the relevant defamatory and trollish materials. Those who passively or actively enable such thuggish behaviour need to recognise what they are cossetting, never mind how genteel and highly principled they imagine themselves to be. The conclusion of the matter is simple: there is no right to defame, there is no right to play the troll, there is no right to demand hosting of defamatory or threatening or inciting materials or other forms of hate speech, there is no right to stalk. Which is actually a recognised crime and often serves as a stage to far worse crimes in the hands of the sort of ilk inclined to out of control rages, drink, drugs, nursing of real or imagined grudges, threatening people with weapons, obsessively collecting or caching weapons and the like. Indeed, if you were to read the story of Lincoln's Assassination you would see just how exactly this pattern played out in a key historical case, how suddenly, once rage provided motive to back up means and opportunity. And responsible people know that those who refuse to learn from sound but grim history are doomed to relive its worst chapters. KFkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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Popperian, irrelevant again. The issue is that per a trillion item database FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design as causal process. Design is a process of intelligently directed configuration [which naturally tends to be informational], and that it leaves reliable markers in many cases which reliably point to causal factor is what is to be addressed. Without, trying to burn down inductive reasoning or else play at selective hyperskepticism. KFkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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I wrote:
However, this knowledge does exist in both the watch (of how to tell time) and living organisms (how to make copies of themselves)
Again, organisms are not built in an "organism factory." Nor do they appear out of thin air. Rather, their concrete features are due to the knowledge they contain about how to make copies of themselves. Those features are adaptations of matter that occur when the knowledge in their DNA about what transformations to make to raw materials are performed. Should some other knowledge be present, some other transformations would occur and some other features would result. Right? So, the origin of an organism's concrete features is the origin of that knowledge. Right? Still following me so far?Popperian
April 28, 2015
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Popperian, First we can readily hold Paley to have made an inference to best current, empirically warranted explanation of origin of FSCO/I. On which the proper challenge is if you don't like it provide another that meets the vera causa test of actually creating FSCO/I. Until then we can rest on the induction to best explanation. Putting up un-named speculative alternatives in the face of 2350 years of analysis on chance, necessity and design as key causal factors reeks of, I have no 4th alternative but am not willing to acknowledge the force of the longstanding three. Next, it is highly interesting that when I showed how by 1804 the disanalogy argument -- which is commonly made -- fails, you immediately changed the subject to an attack on inductive reasoning in general. That too speaks volumes by what you refused to answer cogently. And BTW, there is a longstanding analysis of necessary beings that unlocks the infinite regress of designers parody of induction. That someone or something is design capable does not lock us up to it must itself have been formed by a prior designer. And as an educated person you cannot properly claim to be ignorant of at least the candidate level possibility of a being of such a class. Where, the force of necessity is such that such a serious candidate will be either impossible as a square circle is, or actual. Besides, the ontological status of designers is irrelevant to the status of FSCO/I in something like the watch or the cell reliably pointing to it being designed, in short, you used a red herring. KFkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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@KF#501 While Paley helped clarify the problem, his solution doesn't actually solve it. The difference between Paley's rock and the watch wasn't that one could serviced a purpose while the other could not. A rock could function a paper weight, a weapon, or a construction material, etc. Rather, the key difference was that the watch was well adapted to a purpose (telling time), while the rock was not. The sun can also be used to keep time, but it could do so just as well if it was varied to even a great degree. This is because the sun wasn't well adapted to keeping time in the first place. However, this isn't the case for Paley's watch, as good designs are hard to vary. It would be hard to vary key aspects of the watch greatly and have it perform just as well at keeping time. Just as we can use knowledge to transform unadapted raw-materials in to highly adapted objects to suit our purpose, we can apply knowledge to use the sun for a purpose it was not well adapted to either. In the case of the sun, this knowledge exists in us and our sundials, not the sun itself. However, this knowledge does exist in both the watch (of how to tell time) and living organisms (how to make copies of themselves) So, the question becomes, how did the knowledge (of how to tell time) find its way into the watch and a living organism? What is its origin? Here is where Paley could only conceive of a single explanation, and fails due to the problem of induction. Specifically, the inductive conclusion based on the fact that everything we've observed being designed had a designer.
the inference we think is inevitable, that the watch must have had a maker […] There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance without a contriver; order without choice; arrangement, without any thing capable of arranging; subserviency and relation to a purpose, without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end […] without the end ever having been contemplated, or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use, imply the presence of intelligence and mind.
We cannot fault Paley for not accounting for an infinite number of un-conceived explanations for knowledge creation, including the means which was later discovered by Darwin. Furthermore we can credit Plaley for presenting a better understanding of the problem. However, his proposed solution actually failed to solve it. In fact his solution, creationism, ruled out his own argument. Should we substitute Paley's 'designer' for 'watch', we force him to the "[inevitable] inference […] that the [designer] must have had a maker" Paley's designer must also be well adapted to perform the task of design. Furthermore, said designer couldn't be easily varied to a great degree, yet still perform the task of design just as well, like the rock or the sun could. So, it would seem that his own argument contains a contradiction, which rules out Paley's designer.Popperian
April 28, 2015
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velikovskys said:
But you are saying that the material bodies of their loved ones never existed in the first place, why should a non existent thing have an immaterial mind ?
I didn't say the material bodies "never existed in the first place", I said they existed as illusory representations of what was real in the first place - representations of mind or soul. Illusions are real as illusions, even if they also represent something real.William J Murray
April 28, 2015
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MJM says, Even if the appearance of matter is illusory, that doesn’t mean that what the material illusion represents is not real. I say, Sort of like this http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150427101633.htmfifthmonarchyman
April 28, 2015
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Wjm: Even if the appearance of matter is illusory, that doesn’t mean that what the material illusion represents is not real. It doesn't mean that it is real either, your mind has already demonstrated that it can create convincing immaterial illusions. It is certainly a comfort to hundreds of millions, if not billions, who believe that the material bodies of their loved ones is not all there is, But you are saying that the material bodies of their loved ones never existed in the first place, why should a non existent thing have an immaterial mind ? and that after death what the body represents continues to exist. Again, the body is an illusion why is what it represents not the same illusion? Are you really that unfamiliar with the religious beliefs of billions of people concerning the roles of matter and spirit/mind? Most religious beliefs recognize the existence of a material world, you do not seem to.velikovskys
April 28, 2015
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Popperian:
Cars and laptop computers do not self-replicate. That is, they do not contain the knowlege of what transformations would be necessary to make copes of themselves. Nor do they execute them. (Well, a laptop computer could hold the instructions a robot would need to build it, but the robot actual does the transformations, not the laptop.) On the other hand organisms do not appear out of thin air. Nor are they built in “organism factories”. Rather, they self-replicate. And they do so using the knowledge of what transformations of matter should occur to make copies of themselves that exists in the form of DNA in each cell. This is a key difference.
As was long since pointed out to EL in 85 above, this disanalogy argument failed on the merits c 1804, 50 years before Darwin's theory was given currency. I keep being astonished by the general ignorance of Paley's part 2 to the watch found in a field thought exercise (in ch 2 of his Nat Theol, the Chs I and II being short), which can be slightly updated once we see that the living cell is an encapsulated, gated, nanotech using metabolic automaton, with an integrated, code & algorithm-using von Neumann kinematic self replication facility:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch should after some time discover that, in addition to all the properties which he had hitherto observed in it [--> cf. encapsulated, gated, metabolic automaton], it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself — the thing is conceivable; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts — a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools — evidently and separately calculated for this purpose [--> cf., von Neumann, code using self replication facility] . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done — for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art . . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair — the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use.
In other words, going to the root of the ToL, we face the fact that the self replication facility is itself FSCO/I rich, e.g. stored digital code in DNA, the nanotech of protein synthesis [where TRNAs are universal CCA-joint position arm devices with AA attachment there, and prong height templating to code in succession to chain AAs to make proteins. With step by step processes -- algorithms -- with defined halting. As just one aspect. Given that Darwin knew Paley's work and used it as an implicit foil, and given the fact that von Neumann was 60 years past, something is wrong. Deeply wrong. So, Cars and notebooks do not self replicate. They exhibit FSCO/I but at a LOWER level than a vNSR bearing machine system. There is some progress down that line with 3-d printers etc, and this would mark Industrial revolution 3.0. Pointing to economy transformation and solar system colonisation. Yes, this is not airy fairy stuff. But, we must realise that the living cell was there long ago, using molecular C-chemistry based nanotech. For all sorts of reasons. And as just outlined, a vNSR is a high application of FSCO/I. Indeed, in my IOSE I summarise it thusly:
http://iose-gen.blogspot.com/2010/06/origin-of-life.html#vnsr Now, following von Neumann generally (and as previously noted), such a machine uses . . . (i) an underlying storable code to record the required information to create not only (a) the primary functional machine [[here, for a "clanking replicator" as illustrated, a Turing-type “universal computer”; in a cell this would be the metabolic entity that transforms environmental materials into required components etc.] but also (b) the self-replicating facility; and, that (c) can express step by step finite procedures for using the facility; (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader [[called “the constructor” by von Neumann] that reads and interprets the coded specifications and associated instructions; thus controlling: (iv) position-arm implementing machines with “tool tips” controlled by the tape reader and used to carry out the action-steps for the specified replication (including replication of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either: (1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that as a part of their function, can provide required specific materials/parts and forms of energy for the replication facility, by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment. Also, parts (ii), (iii) and (iv) are each necessary for and together are jointly sufficient to implement a self-replicating machine with an integral von Neumann universal constructor. That is, we see here an irreducibly complex set of core components that must all be present in a properly organised fashion for a successful self-replicating machine to exist. [[Take just one core part out, and self-replicating functionality ceases: the self-replicating machine is irreducibly complex (IC).] This irreducible complexity is compounded by the requirement (i) for codes, requiring organised symbols and rules to specify both steps to take and formats for storing information, and (v) for appropriate material resources and energy sources. Immediately, we are looking at islands of organised function for both the machinery and the information in the wider sea of possible (but mostly non-functional) configurations. In short, outside such functionally specific -- thus, isolated -- information-rich hot (or, "target") zones, want of correct components and/or of proper organisation and/or co-ordination will block function from emerging or being sustained across time from generation to generation. So, once the set of possible configurations is large enough and the islands of function are credibly sufficiently specific/isolated, it is unreasonable to expect such function to arise from chance, or from chance circumstances driving blind natural forces under the known laws of nature.
The attempted disanalogy argument fails (in a way that raises troubling concerns about strawman caricatures of longstanding design thought), and points out an entire onward class of FSCO/I at work in the living cell. Where, for excellent reason, the known causally adequate source of FSCO/I is intelligently directed configuration. And BTW, I have personally emphasised just this point in and around UD for years. KF PS: Just looked up on Google. The first three images are mine, the 4th is a Wiki Image I use that comes from NASA.kairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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Popperian:
If active information somehow improves this process, it too would represent knowledge about what variations would be helpful in specific environments, as opposed to other variations that are not helpful in those same environments, etc. Where is it located? What form does it take? How does it improve a search?
A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search:
This paper provides a general framework for understanding targeted search. It begins by defining the search matrix, which makes explicit the sources of information that can affect search progress. The search matrix enables a search to be represented as a probability measure on the original search space. This representation facilitates tracking the information cost incurred by successful search (success being defined as finding the target). To categorize such costs, various information and efficiency measures are defined, notably, active information.
Active information is a measure. Your questions don't even make sense.Mung
April 28, 2015
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Popp:
Getting back to the thread, Darwinism has always been the idea that knowledge genuinely grows, though variation and selection.
Test it, then.
With the advent of DNA, we more specifically say variations in the knowledge of how to build copies of an organism occur that are random to any specific problem to solve, which are then tested by the environment and errors are discarded.
But "random to any specific problem to solve" does not = happenstance and undirected. Ones and zeros appear to be random when you look at them on a computer buss but we all know they are directed by the programs. That is why the OoL is KEY. Only if Darwinian type processes produced living organisms would we think all mutations are accidents, errors and/ or mistakes, ie undirected, unplanned. And guess what? Those processes cannot account for basic biological reproduction. Darwinism fails as it is a non-starter.
If active information somehow improves this process, it too would represent knowledge about what variations would be helpful in specific environments, as opposed to other variations that are not helpful in those same environments, etc. Where is it located?
In the cell. We can pinpoint it by trying to make artificial life by using and replacing parts of an existing form. Venter demonstrated it isn't in the DNA.
What form does it take? How does it improve a search?
SEARCH is the key word. We answer those question via investigation. ID says that information is there so all we have to do is flesh it out. Two words- research project! What form does it take? How does it improve a search?Joe
April 28, 2015
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Getting back to the thread, Darwinism has always been the idea that knowledge genuinely grows, though variation and selection. With the advent of DNA, we more specifically say variations in the knowledge of how to build copies of an organism occur that are random to any specific problem to solve, which are then tested by the environment and errors are discarded. If active information somehow improves this process, it too would represent knowledge about what variations would be helpful in specific environments, as opposed to other variations that are not helpful in those same environments, etc. Where is it located? What form does it take? How does it improve a search?Popperian
April 28, 2015
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Popp:
Rather, you implicitly assumed that was the case as part of your claim that neo-darwinism cannot explain anything, scientifically.
It explains disease and deformities rather nicely. That is about it.Joe
April 28, 2015
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velikovskys said:
I am sure that will be a comfort to the people of Nepal that it is only a illusion that buried their illusionary relatives. Luckily the problem of duality has been solved by removing the material world. Is it self evidently wrong to torture an illusion for pleasure?
Even if the appearance of matter is illusory, that doesn't mean that what the material illusion represents is not real. It is certainly a comfort to hundreds of millions, if not billions, who believe that the material bodies of their loved ones is not all there is, and that after death what the body represents continues to exist. Are you really that unfamiliar with the religious beliefs of billions of people concerning the roles of matter and spirit/mind?William J Murray
April 28, 2015
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I wrote:
An organism making a copy of itself and varying its DNA in ways that are “helpful” are both transformations of matter. It’s unclear why the former would occur with the requisite knowledge of what transformations to make under the right circumstances being present, but not the latter.
Joe:
That means they are less complex and therefor nature should be able to produce them.
How is this relevant to what I wrote?Popperian
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