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The hole of the SLoT

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Definition of the 2nd law of thermodynamics (SLoT).

This law (in its statistical mechanics sense) states that an isolated system goes towards its more probable states (those more numerous). Since the disordered states are countless, while the ordered/organized ones are few, a closed system spontaneously goes towards disorder/disorganization (related to entropy).

Difference between order and organization.

Increase of order implies decrease of entropy. Examples of order in nature are crystals; soap bubbles and raindrops are examples of naturally ordered quasi-spheres. Examples of order in human artefacts are the pattern of wood in a fence and the configuration of seats in a cinema.
Organization also implies persistent decrease of entropy, but is far more and far higher than order. Organization is qualitatively different from order. Organization always involves functional hierarchies and complex specified information (CSI). Examples of organization in nature are cells and organisms. Examples of organization in human technology are engines and computers.

A key point: the relation between organization and entropy is non symmetrical. (Intuitive example of non symmetrical relation: rain implies decrease of dryness, but decrease of dryness does not imply rain – decrease of dryness may well have other causes.) While organization implies persistent decrease of entropy, a decrease of entropy alone does not imply organization. Put differently: while entropy destroys organization, its opposite – neghentropy – doesn’t create organization. While it is true that what decreases order destroys also organization, it is false that what increases order creates also organization.

By increasing order we don’t get organization, like by increasing numbers we don’t get elephants or spaceships, like by increasing a rectangle we don’t get a circle or a fractal. Organization is not at all the limit which order tends to. Between increasing order and organization there is a deep discontinuity, a “hole”.

Graphical representation of the 2nd law.

See this picture:

close

Where the organized state (red zone) is one, the ordered states (yellow zone) are some and the disordered states (green zone) are countless. Since the disordered states are far more numerous than the other states they are more probable (leading to the continue tendency for disorder stated by the 2nd law). In the picture the 2nd law tendency is symbolized by the gravity force applied to the red ball. The red ball always tends towards the bottom, towards the disordered states. The discontinuity between organization and order – the “hole” – is represented by the tunnel between the red zone and the yellow zone. The ball never reaches the red zone of organization because, also if it climbs the mountain, it falls in the hole and crosses the tunnel.

Biological unguided evolution.

Evolution supposes that all the biological organization on Earth arose spontaneously (naturalistic origin of life + naturalistic origin of species).

Corollary of the 2nd law.

In an isolated system, organization never increases spontaneously. Hence the 2nd law refutes evolution. The absurdity of evolution is illustrated in the following picture:

evo

Evolution would involve countless scenarios where the red balls stay permanently on the top of the peaks. Consequently the 2nd law disproves evolution because evolution would represent a set of events practically impossible.

Evolutionist “compensation argument”.

To rebut the above corollary, usually evolutionists resort to this argument. Since the Earth is not isolated, the 2nd law does not forbid a local (on Earth) decreases in entropy (which is all biological organisms represent, and no more than evolution is posited to do), gained at the cost of increased entropy in the surroundings (the solar system) (or, as long as the system exports a sufficient amount of entropy to its surroundings). So evolution can happen on Earth.

Refutation of the “compensation argument”.

The main counter-point is that, no, decrease in entropy is not “all biological organisms represent”. Organisms eminently represent organization. They are even ultra-complex systems. As said above, simple decrease in entropy is not organization. Evolutionists use “entropy” as a “free lunch” for evolution: entropy increases there, so entropy decrease here and organisms arise here at zero cost, while the 2nd law is safe. Too good to be true. Since entropy is related to disorder, then I cause a big mess (easy task) there to get organization (difficult task) here? Do you see the nonsense?

Second, call A the open system and B its surroundings. “Increased entropy in the surroundings” means that B has increased its disorder, going towards a more disordered state. This additional disorder in B becomes (in the mind of evolutionists) sort of “money” to pay the organization in A. Just this concept appears paradoxical: to pay organization by means of disorder. It is like to say: a disease in my wife 🙁 increases my health :).

Third, the reasoning is also absurd when we speak of probability. “Increased entropy in the surroundings” means that in B happened events more probable than the events happened before. These more probable events become (in the mind of evolutionists) sort of “magic” that creates organization in A. In turn, this organization in A is events with low probability that happen. So the whole reasoning is: probable events happened in B cause improbable events in A. It is like to say: the shopping expenses of my wife 🙁 cause my winning the lottery :).

In short, the evolutionist “compensation argument” is something like “non-X causes X”. It helps exactly zero the case for evolution, and doesn’t save evolution against the 2nd law.

The bottom line is: improbable events related to organization in a system remain improbable independently from the fact that we consider the system closed or open. Unless evolutionists are able to prove that some external cause is really able to reduce somehow such improbabilities, by injecting CSI to create organization. So far evolutionists have not succeeded in such task, their “compensation argument” is laughable. While IDers have a name for an organizational cause: intelligence.

Comments
Keiths and Elizabeth are 100% correct, and the knitting/gerbil analogies are spot-on. It's been said, "Thermodynamics is the science of the impossible". This means that thermodynamics doesn't tell you what's actually possible, it only tells you some of what's impossible. It gives you some reasons why some things won't work, and it says nothing about everything else. So: evolution does not violate the 2LOT, as the Earth is not a closed system. That's it, full stop. That's all that the 2LOT can tell you about evolution. It's a very narrow, very precise law, and it says nothing at all about "organization". Phrased most accurately, the 2LOT says that evolution "isn't impossible" by the standards of this law. Evolution passes this hurdle with flying colors, even if it might stumble at others. You can't derive any other information about evolution from the 2LOT. It is completely, 100% wrong to say that the Second Law of Thermodynamics poses any problem for evolution whatsoever.Ben W
July 9, 2013
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KF
Re EL: It’s not just work that is done but highly specific, intricate and complex constructive work (including maintenance), through a complex of digital info controlled processing systems, including a von Neumann self replicator. FSCO/I all the way through. The only observed source for such is design. And, the point of the relevant analysis is that the idea that diffusion or the like would be able to account for such, is simply a belief in miraculously lucky noise, indistinguishable form believing in materialist miracles. Noise is not a credible source of that sort of info. KF
OK, and so Granville's argument is NOT an argument from the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, but rather the same argument as Dembski's (and yours). The 2nd Law is simply irrelevant.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 9, 2013
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niwrad,
You haven’t invented the atomic bomb.
???
No one denies compensation.
You deny the compensation argument. An entire section of your OP is entitled Refutation of the "compensation argument". But as I showed earlier in the thread, you can't deny the compensation argument without denying the second law itself. The compensation argument is valid, and it shows that evolution doesn't violate the second law. That's all it shows. It doesn't explain evolution. You and Granville are confused because you think the compensation argument should explain evolution. But why? I explained this already:
niwrad, The compensation argument doesn’t explain evolution. It doesn’t have to explain evolution. It isn’t intended to explain evolution. It is only intended to show that evolution does not violate the second law — and it succeeds. Likewise, the compensation argument doesn’t explain knitting. It doesn’t have to explain knitting. It isn’t intended to explain knitting. It is only intended to show that knitting (and every other process) does not violate the second law — and it succeeds. You may very well be a knitting skeptic. You may demand evidence that knitting actually happens. You may argue that knitting is too improbable to be believable. Yet none of that has anything to do with the second law, because knitting doesn’t violate the second law. It’s the same with evolution: You may very well be a evolution skeptic. You may demand evidence that evolution actually happens. You may argue that evolution is too improbable to be believable. Yet none of that has anything to do with the second law, because evolution doesn’t violate the second law.
keiths
July 9, 2013
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keiths You haven't invented the atomic bomb. Your argument is compensation, sic et simpliciter. No one denies compensation. We deny compensation causes organization. Compensation, at its maximum, can force the ball towards the yellow zone (order). But the ball cannot arrive to the red zone (organization). Suggestion for you and Lizzie, from a friend: resign. Don't worry, evolution doesn't go away from school, science, academy, media, tv .. there is no chance that happens because the Darwinian nomenklatura rules, but at least you get the satisfaction to know the truth. :)niwrad
July 9, 2013
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kairosfocus:
Re KS: This ideologue is notoriously not credible in his assertions.
KF, This "ideologue" has presented a simple 4-step argument showing that your denial of the compensation argument is tantamount to denying the second law itself. You can't refute my argument, and the onlookers know it.keiths
July 9, 2013
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Re KS: This ideologue is notoriously not credible in his assertions. He has shown no such thing as he tries to imply but has instead put forward and knocked over a strawman assertion [a fallacy of irrelevance -- he has not adequately accounted for the sort of constructive work creating FSCO/I on diffusion or the like that he leaves the impression of . . . ], for instance see the corrections here on where just today I had to bring back up a correction to a similarly misleading assertion. Unfortunately on track record he will be ding this sort of thing for years to come. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2013
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Re EL: It's not just work that is done but highly specific, intricate and complex constructive work (including maintenance), through a complex of digital info controlled processing systems, including a von Neumann self replicator. FSCO/I all the way through. The only observed source for such is design. And, the point of the relevant analysis is that the idea that diffusion or the like would be able to account for such, is simply a belief in miraculously lucky noise, indistinguishable form believing in materialist miracles. Noise is not a credible source of that sort of info. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2013
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niwrad
Billions balls stay permanently on the top of the red zone and you deny they violate the law stating they cannot stay there!
But your model is not a model of evolution. Or even of the 2nd Law. If work is done on a system, the "config" space, as KF calls it changes. The most probable state, instead of being uniformity, may be something quite different. This can be seen very dramatically in any simple evolutionary algorithm, where entirely random but heritable changes to the virtual critters rapidly lead to sequences that are far from uniform. What was a sink becomes a peak and what was a peak becomes a sink.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 9, 2013
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niwrad, The compensation argument shows that evolution does not violate the second law. I have shown, in a simple 4-step argument, that to deny the compensation argument is to deny the second law. You deny the compensation argument. Therefore, if you don't wish to deny the second law, you need to identify a flaw in my 4-step argument. Good luck.keiths
July 9, 2013
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keiths #57
"Evolution doesn’t violate the second law."
Billions balls stay permanently on the top of the red zone and you deny they violate the law stating they cannot stay there! Analogy: billions cars stay permanently on a "no parking" zone and you deny they violate the "no parking" sign! You deny the evidence, a very simple and clear evidence though. I show you a red apple on the palm of my hand. You say you don't see it. I cannot see for you.niwrad
July 9, 2013
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niwrad, The compensation argument doesn't explain evolution. It doesn't have to explain evolution. It isn't intended to explain evolution. It is only intended to show that evolution does not violate the second law -- and it succeeds. Likewise, the compensation argument doesn't explain knitting. It doesn't have to explain knitting. It isn't intended to explain knitting. It is only intended to show that knitting (and every other process) does not violate the second law -- and it succeeds. You may very well be a knitting skeptic. You may demand evidence that knitting actually happens. You may argue that knitting is too improbable to be believable. Yet none of that has anything to do with the second law, because knitting doesn't violate the second law. It's the same with evolution: You may very well be a evolution skeptic. You may demand evidence that evolution actually happens. You may argue that evolution is too improbable to be believable. Yet none of that has anything to do with the second law, because evolution doesn't violate the second law.keiths
July 9, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle #55 Hello Let's try with the colored zones... (1) evolution = countless balls reach the red zone (2) SLoT = balls can never reach the red zone (3) SLoT disproves evolution You counter with compensation: (A) the ball in a system can reach the yellow zone if a ball in the surroundings reaches the green zone Do you see that your (A) doesn't refute 1+2+3?niwrad
July 9, 2013
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niwrad:
I meet you and say: “car cannot run without engine”. You answer: “but in a car the wheels can rotate”. I reply: “Ok, the wheels rotate, but you have to show the car run without engine”.
I'd say it was more like: You meet me say: “car cannot run without engine". I answer: “but it's got an engine!”. You reply: “Ok, it's got an engine, but you have to show the car has wheels”. There is nothing in the 2nd Law that would prevent evolution. There may be other problems, but the 2nd Law isn't one of them :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 9, 2013
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keiths #53
"All the compensation argument says is that entropy cannot decrease locally unless there is a compensating entropy increase in the surroundings. No one is saying that the compensation argument explains evolution; just that it shows that evolution doesn’t violate the second law."
That SLoT says that evolution cannot happen is a thing clear as the sun as long as one looks at the 2 pictures. Before this evidence you oppose an argument that doesn't explain evolution (= organization), rather shows increase in entropy (= non evolution = non organization). But the compensation argument should do it, in that context!!! It is this thing that you, Lizzie and al. don't understand. Consider this metaphor. I meet you and say: "car cannot run without engine". You answer: "but in a car the wheels can rotate". I reply: "Ok, the wheels rotate, but you have to show the car run without engine". Analogously, if the compensation argument wants really oppose the ID argument from the SLoT, it must explain how evolution happens. It is not enough that you show that entropy increase, because entropy increase has nothing to do with evolution (like wheels are not enough for a car to run).niwrad
July 9, 2013
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niwrad,
I didn’t argue that entropy cannot decrease locally.
All the compensation argument says is that entropy cannot decrease locally unless there is a compensating entropy increase in the surroundings. No one is saying that the compensation argument explains evolution; just that it shows that evolution doesn't violate the second law. Here is another comment from Granville's thread that may help:
CS3, You and Granville have fallen into the trap of wanting the second law to do more than it actually does. The second law forbids violations of the second law, no more and no less. Let me give an example of the same error, but in terms of the first law. Suppose a friend of yours claims that gerbils keep poofing into existence in his living room. He is constantly giving gerbils away to his friends as a result of the alleged gerbil influx. You find this wildly implausible, but he is adamant that it really happens. You try to reason him out of his delusion by showing him that gerbils can’t possibly materialize out of thin air. One of your arguments is that if gerbils really did poof into existence in his living room, this would be a violation of the first law of thermodynamics, which says that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Since matter is a form of energy (by Einstein’s famous equation), the appearance of a gerbil out of thin air would violate the first law. He tells you he’s made careful measurements that show that every time a gerbil appears, the mass of the furniture in the living room decreases by a corresponding amount. In other words, the incarnation of the gerbil is compensated for by a decrease in mass of the living room furniture. You find this absurd and tell him “This compensation argument is bogus. The first law doesn’t allow gerbils to poof into existence merely because there is a compensatory loss of mass in the living room furniture!” But if you tell him this, you are wrong. The first law does allow gerbils to poof into existence, because the first law only forbids violations of the first law, no more and no less. As long as the mass of the furniture decreases by the correct amount, there is no violation of the first law. The gerbil-poofing idea is still ridiculous, and you have many reasons to doubt it, but the first law is not one of them, because the first law is not violated. The first law is not obligated to rule out every wildly improbable event in the universe, including gerbil poofing. It only rules out violations of the first law. Likewise with evolution and the second law. You and Granville may (and obviously do) think that evolution is ridiculous, and that people and locomotives and lava lamps can’t appear on a formerly barren planet simply because solar energy is streaming in and waste heat is radiating out. But your skepticism has nothing to do with the second law, because the second law is not violated. You just think evolution is improbable, like every other IDer and creationist.
keiths
July 8, 2013
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JW sez:
Sorry Joe, your subjective dislike for the definition of cardinality is irrelevant.
LoL! As if I have any dislike for the definition of cardinality....Joe
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle I appreciated very much your words. I am honoured to discuss with a Lady who prefers to spend time to grasp SLoT, CSI, DNA.. instead of cinema's stars, beauty products, gossip.. All, evolutionists and IDers/creationists, should have interest in discovering the truth, for not being destroyed. Because "The Truth is a reality that cannot be destroyed by what opposes it, rather the Truth destroys what opposes it." [traditional dictum] You seem to have well understood what are the things that matter.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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Boys, I am the thread owner. As such I would like that all maintain a suitable level of civility. Please, if possible, debate arguments, not ad hominen. Thank you.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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keiths I didn't argue that entropy cannot decrease locally. I argued that such local decrease of entropy has nothing to do with organization. A local decrease can form ice or other trivial products, but will never form microprocessors or cellular DNA machineries. This is the problem. Prof. Sewell, like me and al., doesn't deny local decrease of entropy, ice formation, etc.. He simply denies that organization can arise spontaneously without importing CSI.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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niwrad, In your OP, you claim to refute the compensation argument. On Granville's thread, I explained why denying the compensation argument amounts to denying the second law! Here's my comment:
CS3, I’ve mentioned this a couple of times already but people (including you) haven’t picked up on it, so let me try again. When Granville argues against the compensation idea, he is unwittingly arguing against the second law itself. It’s easy to see why. Imagine two open systems A and B that interact only with each other. Now draw a boundary around just A and B and label the contents as system C. Because A and B interact only with each other, and not with anything outside of C, we know that C is an isolated system (by definition). The second law tells us that the entropy cannot decrease in any isolated system (including C). We also know from thermodynamics that the entropy of C is equal to the entropy of A plus the entropy of B. All of us (including Granville) know that it’s possible for entropy to decrease locally, as when a puddle of water freezes. So imagine that system A is a container of water that becomes ice. Note: 1. The entropy of A decreases when the water freezes. 2. The second law tells us that the entropy of C cannot decrease. 3. Thermodynamics tells us that the entropy of C is equal to the entropy of A plus the entropy of B. 4. Therefore, if the entropy of A decreases, the entropy of B must increase by at least an equal amount to avoid violating the second law. The second law demands that compensation must happen. If you deny compensation, you deny the second law. Thus Granville’s paper is not only chock full of errors, it actually shoots itself in the foot by contradicting the second law! It’s a monumental mess that belongs nowhere near the pages of any respectable scientific publication. The BI organizers really screwed up when they accepted Granville’s paper.
keiths
July 8, 2013
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niwrad::
Well, I know your discourse is pretty honest, and mine will be too.
Thanks! I really appreciate that!
We IDers/creationists are not bad guys who want to destroy evolutionism, as a sport, at any cost, because evolutionists are nasty people. No one of us combats for those reasons or for money or whatever advantage. We combat for the truth, nothing else.
That's good to hear.
We are simply people who believe in a simple principle: that more cannot come from less. Unfortunately evolutionism is exactly that.
It is indeed. And I think you have nailed it exactly. Many of us on the "evolution" side, do think that "more can come from less", and indeed that is the core of the concept of "emergent" properties. However, let me make it clear, that, wrong or right, the concept of "emergence" does not violate the 2LoT. A tornado is an "emergent" property of air moving in a very marked and powerful pattern, and a tornado, although it does represent a large decrease in entropy, does not violate the 2LoT, because it is caused by process that result in increased entropy in the surroundings.
So, when we read that you (as most evolutionists) believe in a “perfectly good mechanism that makes the emergence of life probable” we begin to argue the following points: (1) life implies much organization; (2) such organization cannot come from something less or lower; (3) if the “mechanism” you speak of is chance + necessity, it cannot create organization, because has the necessary power; (4) what is higher than organization is intelligence (the processor of organization); (5) in a system can emerge only what the system potentially contains (or what comes from the surroundings). From nothing, nothing comes. These principles assure us that a simple mechanism that creates true complexity doesn’t exist today and will not exist tomorrow.
And that is extremely clarifying :) The only problem with it, as I would see, is: is the premise on which it is based correct? I would say no. But the great thing is that we do seem to have drilled down to where the difference between our positions truly lies and that is a great achievement! Thank you!Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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@DiEb: Joe has been warned by kf several times. But since Joe is not a darwinist materialist and this blog are the lands of trinitarian hypocracy, Joe will continue to express his bluntess, regardless of your cry for "civility".JWTruthInLove
July 8, 2013
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Joe: Dweeb ... Liar ... dweeb ... ignorant cowards. Please see this comment, just replace Dirichelet by insignifacant, Dirichlet by insignificant and moderator by prolific contributor to this blog .
DiEb
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle #41 Well, I know your discourse is pretty honest, and mine will be too. We IDers/creationists are not bad guys who want to destroy evolutionism, as a sport, at any cost, because evolutionists are nasty people. No one of us combats for those reasons or for money or whatever advantage. We combat for the truth, nothing else. We are simply people who believe in a simple principle: that more cannot come from less. Unfortunately evolutionism is exactly that. So, when we read that you (as most evolutionists) believe in a "perfectly good mechanism that makes the emergence of life probable" we begin to argue the following points: (1) life implies much organization; (2) such organization cannot come from something less or lower; (3) if the "mechanism" you speak of is chance + necessity, it cannot create organization, because has the necessary power; (4) what is higher than organization is intelligence (the processor of organization); (5) in a system can emerge only what the system potentially contains (or what comes from the surroundings). From nothing, nothing comes. These principles assure us that a simple mechanism that creates true complexity doesn't exist today and will not exist tomorrow.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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@Joe Sorry Joe, your subjective dislike for the definition of cardinality is irrelevant. Go whine somewhere else.JWTruthInLove
July 8, 2013
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Dweeb:
But Joe doesn’t understand the basic ideas of naive set theory
Liar. Just because i disagree with one small and insignifacant part of what Cantor sed, dweeb, et al., think that means I cannot understand any of set theory. And that meas they are just a bunch of ignorant cowards.Joe
July 8, 2013
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niwrad:
“Evolutionists don’t think evolution is improbable” because “they think that things can happen that render otherwise improbable things much less improbable”. Sure, this explains all…but please.
It's a very important point, but perhaps I wasn't clear. Let's say I show you a video of me tossing 20 Heads. You think it's too improbable to be true. I point out that I spent a week tossing coins in front of a video camera, and have edited for you the one little set of tosses in which I happened to toss 20 Heads. In other words, the explanation isn't that even though 20 Heads is really really rare, if you toss enough coins, which I did, it will happen. That's one explanation. Now a different scenario: I show you a similar video. Again, you think this is extraordinary. However, this time I give you a different explanation. I say: most of the coins have two heads. Many IDists think that the evolutionist are proposing that the life is the like the first explanation: that we agree that it is really really rare, it's just that we think there has been enough time, or enough universes, to make it happening at least once quite likely. But what I'm saying is that most evolutionists I know think something different: that there is a (probably!) a perfectly good mechanism that makes the emergence of life probable, i.e. frequent: e.g. fairly common chemical and physical conditions on wet, atmosphere-bearing planets that make the formation of self-replicating assemblies of molecules really quite probable, and Darwinian evolution thenceforth possible. Darwinian evolution itself, given self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success, is far more probable than not, but I agree we have not got as far as figuring out what made that first part "probable". But it's far too early, IMO, to come to the conclusion that we won't, or that there wasn't something.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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BTW, it's not only Cantor. Joe says: "mathematicians don’t seem to be able to appraise what i have said." Must be the fault of all these mathematicians, I assume.DiEb
July 8, 2013
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@Joe: DiEB is proud to be an ignorant, and cowardly ass. Aren't there people on this board who enforce civility ? @BA77: DiEb, although I don’t know exactly what you are talking about in regards to Cantor, do you hold Cantor to be infallible in his work? No, of course not, he made errors. But Joe doesn't understand the basic ideas of naive set theory, he is - what MarkCC calls a "Cantor Crank". If he doesn't understand (he has neither to like nor to accept it) naive set theory, everything he says about maths and statistics is dubious at best.DiEb
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle #28 "Evolutionists don’t think evolution is improbable" because "they think that things can happen that render otherwise improbable things much less improbable". Sure, this explains all...but please. :)niwrad
July 8, 2013
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