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Why on Earth would a layman accept Darwinistic claims?

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First, by “Darwinistic” I mean “atheistic-materialist neo-Darwinist”, which includes the view that even the origin of life can be explained by reference to chance and natural law.

As Alan Fox points out, many of those here are “laymen” when it comes to evolutionary biology.  Most of us are not specifically schooled or trained in that arena – by “us”, I mean anyone who is interested in the debate about Darwinian evolution vs ID-inclusive evolution.  I, like many, have informed myself to a moderate degree about Darwinistic claims and the ID argument, but I’m certainly not a professional scientist, nor a philosopher with any formal academic training.

IMO, a reasonable layman would be highly skeptical of claims that matter, chance & natural law can by themselves  produce the sophisticated software/hardware nano-systems and architecture found in each self-replicating cell, much less produce consciousness, teleological will, intelligence, and imagination.  A reasonable layman would be much more likely to hold – until convinced by a good understanding of compelling evidence otherwise – that consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination most probably come from that which has them or something like them already, and that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, organized, functional machinery that is operational through physically encoded instructions is only known to be originally produced by intelligence via teleological planning.  No one – to my knowledge – has ever witnessed unintelligent natural law, chance, and brute materials originate such devices and mechanisms. There is no good reason to believe that they can.

So I ask pro-Darwinistic, anti-ID laymen, like Alan Fox: without a professional  understanding of the biology, philosophy or logic involved, nor of information systems and theory, chemistry or bio-engineering, why on Earth would you accept that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, functional, self-replicating machines; consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination can be produced (eventually) by the happenstance interactions of brute matter via law and chance?  What is the rational basis for accepting such a view,  especially if you admit that you do not really even understand the evidence/arguments pro or con because you are “just a layman”?

It seems to me laymen who do not feel qualified to argue the logic and the evidence on their own but instead prefer to defer to “experts” are in a situation where they should just remain skeptical of such claims, and certainly shouldn’t be cheerleading one side and dismissing the other.

Comments
SteveO:
Joe, I often write code that, depending on circumstances, generates new code that did not previously exist.
Meyer goes over that in "Signature in the Cell". You didn't create new fcsi, you designed a program to do so and it did. That "new" fcsi is tarced back to you and is actually contained in the original program.
In a design context, why would it be impossible to generate fcsi that can itself be a generator of fcsi as I’ve illustrated with my programming example?
It wouldn't be impossible. And life = nature iff (if and only if) nature, operating freely, produced lifeJoe
March 21, 2013
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steveO, as to:
Is it possible for a designer to produce FCSI that is sufficiently advanced to encapsulate a some of the know-how of the designer so that the FCSI could, acting freely, generate new FCSI? The original FCSI acting as a proxy, if you like, for the designer.
Yes. But according the work done by Drs. Dembski and Marks (and company) the FCSI would have to be encapsulated within the 'active' information inherent in the genome and/or in the environment, so there can be, as far as I know, no 'new' functional information that was not already accounted for in the initial parameters. But in our ignorance of accounting for it, it would appear to be 'new'. Here is the paper to that effect:
LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW – William Dembski – Robert Marks – Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/
Since I'm really a novice in this area as to what we can expect to see from this 'conservation law' unfolding in the genomes of life, perhaps you can drop a e-mail to Drs. Dembski and/or Marks (or perhaps a co-author) and get a much more firm answer than what I can give you.bornagain77
March 21, 2013
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Thanks BA Yes I said "nature acting freely". I understand the term nature in the context of this discussion to refer to all living things as they are. "acting freely" was the point of the question: Is it possible for a designer to produce FCSI that is sufficiently advanced to encapsulate a some of the know-how of the designer so that the FCSI could, acting freely, generate new FCSI? The original FCSI acting as a proxy, if you like, for the designer. That's it. The links on extreme front loading and the generation of new information on a large scale are appreciated and I will (attempt) to read them but they refut another question and not the one I was asking. But it seems you agree and the question is not out of line with your ID thinking. Nature(life) acting freely producing FCSI would not necessarily falsify ID. I think it's just the case that the language around this falsification criterion needs more careful phrasing. Perhaps this is already done somewhere on UD...steveO
March 21, 2013
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Well steveO I agree for life that it could be possible to program a lot of frontloading into a program especially given the infinite mind of God, but you stated 'in nature acting freely' in your post.,,, But even in the 'programming of life', as extremely sophisticated as it is turning out to be, I believe that there are fairly strict limits to the amount of 'new' information that you can expect to get out of any designed program without invoking the need for new information input from a Designer. One severe constraint would have to do with the 'poly-constraint that polyfunctionality' presents to incorporating new information at base levels of programming (J. Sanford) for each new Body Plan. The other limit to extreme front loading is that there is a limit to the amount of computation you can perform with any given algorithm before it peters out of the information it is able to generate from its initial inputs. This problem is best illustrated by Godel, Turing, and Chaitin:
Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821 Alan Turing & Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video (notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8516356/ Here is what Gregory Chaitin, a world-famous mathematician and computer scientist, said about the limits of the computer program he was trying to develop to prove evolution was mathematically feasible: At last, a Darwinist mathematician tells the truth about evolution - VJT - November 2011 Excerpt: In Chaitin’s own words, “You’re allowed to ask God or someone to give you the answer to some question where you can’t compute the answer, and the oracle will immediately give you the answer, and you go on ahead.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-last-a-darwinist-mathematician-tells-the-truth-about-evolution/ Here is the video where, at the 30:00 minute mark, you can hear the preceding quote from Chaitin's own mouth in full context: Life as Evolving Software, Greg Chaitin at PPGC UFRGS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYS_GiAnK8 The Limits Of Reason - Gregory Chaitin - 2006 Excerpt: an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms.,,, http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer3.pdf
As well steveO, there is the whole Genetic Entropy thing. But basically SteveO, I totally agree with you that if we found new ORFan genes and proteins popping up in a specific member of a species from the genetic programming therein, which is very well possible given the current trend in evidence, then it would not be a 'automatic falsification' for ID, but would actually be evidence in support Design since it would reflect the superior design inherent in the programming of life..bornagain77
March 20, 2013
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Sorry BA but still not satisfied with the answer. If a mere human can employ this design method, I don't see why a far greater intelligence cannot. If in an as yet undevised experiment we observed the appearance of new fcsi it could mean the design and programming of life can operate on a higher meta level than was previously known. Code generating new code would be a signature of design, not an automatic falsification.steveO
March 20, 2013
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Well steveO, as far as I know, all evidence indicates natural processes, acting freely, do not ever generate non-trivial functional information in nature. As to if we did find an example, in nature, that went beyond Dembki's 500 bit threshold, then I would certainly consider it miraculous and would not attribute it to purely 'natural' processes,,, say something like your alphabet cereal spelling out a few lines from Shakespeare in your cereal bowl in the morning.bornagain77
March 20, 2013
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BA77 You may have missed my point or else I wasn't clear enough in asking my question. If a designer can generate code (fcsi) that is engineered to produce new fcsi and we believe life is designed, then why would the appearance of fcsi in nature acting freely falsify ID (as claimed by Joe) ?steveO
March 20, 2013
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steveO as to:
In a design context, why would it be impossible to generate fcsi that can itself be a generator of fcsi as I’ve illustrated with my programming example?
But that is the whole caveat isn't it steveO? You designed the program to converge on a solution to a problem you were working on and did not just 'randomly' type various changes into your program hoping that one would eventually solve the problem you were working on:
In computer science we recognize the algorithmic principle described by Darwin - the linear accumulation of small changes through random variation - as hill climbing, more specifically random mutation hill climbing. However, we also recognize that hill climbing is the simplest possible form of optimization and is known to work well only on a limited class of problems. Watson R.A. - 2006 - Compositional Evolution - MIT Press - Pg. 272 Evolutionary Computation: A Perpetual Motion Machine for Design Information? By Robert J. Marks II Final Thoughts: Search spaces require structuring for search algorithms to be viable. This includes evolutionary search for a targeted design goal. The added structure information needs to be implicitly infused into the search space and is used to guide the process to a desired result. The target can be specific, as is the case with a precisely identified phrase; or it can be general, such as meaningful phrases that will pass, say, a spelling and grammar check. In any case, there is yet no perpetual motion machine for the design of information arising from evolutionary computation. http://www.idnet.com.au/files/pdf/Evolutionary%20Computer%20Simulations.pdf "Darwin or Design" with Dr. Tom Woodward with guest Dr. Robert J. Marks II - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yoj9xo0YsOQ In the following podcast, Robert Marks gives a very informative talk as to the strict limits we can expect from any evolutionary computer program (evolutionary algorithm): Darwin as the Pinball Wizard: Talking Probability with Robert Marks - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2010/03/darwin_as_the_pinball_wizard_t.html Here are a few quotes from Robert Marks from the preceding podcast: * [Computer] programs to demonstrate Darwinian evolution are akin to a pinball machine. The steel ball bounces around differently every time but eventually falls down the little hole behind the flippers. * It's a lot easier to play pinball than it is to make a pinball machine. * Computer programs, including all of the models of Darwinian evolution of which I am aware, perform the way their programmers intended. Doing so requires the programmer infuse information about the program's goal. You can't write a good program without [doing so]. Robert J. Marks II - Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Baylor University LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ Signature In The Cell - Review Excerpt: There is absolutely nothing surprising about the results of these (evolutionary) algorithms. The computer is programmed from the outset to converge on the solution. The programmer designed to do that. What would be surprising is if the program didn't converge on the solution. That would reflect badly on the skill of the programmer. Everything interesting in the output of the program came as a result of the programmer's skill-the information input. There are no mysterious outputs. Software Engineer - quoted to Stephen Meyer http://www.scribd.com/full/29346507?access_key=key-1ysrgwzxhb18zn6dtju0 A Darwinian Enigma: Defending The Preposterous After Having Been Informed Excerpt: I’m thoroughly familiar with Monte Carlo methods. Trial and error can be a useful tool in an intelligently designed computer program, given a limited search space, sufficient computational resources, and a goal in mind. None of this has anything to do with extrapolating Monte Carlo methods in computation to the origin of information in biological systems. Unsupported extrapolations such as this are the hallmark of Darwinian speculation, which is the antithesis of rigorous scientific investigation. - Gil Dodgen - Programmer of 'Perfect Play Checkers'
bornagain77
March 20, 2013
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And if we ever observe nature, operating freely, producing CSI (or any of its derivatives), our inference would be neatly refuted. It is as simple as that.
Joe, I often write code that, depending on circumstances, generates new code that did not previously exist. In a design context, why would it be impossible to generate fcsi that can itself be a generator of fcsi as I've illustrated with my programming example?steveO
March 20, 2013
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Optimus @58,
"At any rate, present difficulties in measuring dFSCI in physical systems do not in any way detract from the legitimacy of using FSCO as a qualitative descriptor. It’s a point I’ve made before, but I shall repeat myself: Quantitative descripition is incredibly useful, but it is not the end-all in making productive descriptions of the world. Qualitative description (such as FSCO) is of immense practical value. A few examples will suffice to illustrate the point: Consider the terms ‘alive’ and ‘dead’. Neither has any units or scale of measure. They are wholly qualitative descriptors, but their real-world value is undeniable. Imagine an accused murderer who tried to convince a jury that no murder really happened by claiming that the terms ‘alive’ and ‘dead’ have no substance because they are not quantitative descripitons. I doubt he would fare well! Consider too the terms ‘functional’ and ‘non-functional’. Again, they have no units. There’s no scale with which to relate these terms. Nevertheless their usefulness is incontrovertible. Even if we can’t attach numbers to it, we all recognize the difference between a car that is ‘functional’ versus one that is ‘non-functional’. I suppose the point of all this is merely that even if FSCO forever remains a description without numbers, this does not mean that it isn’t a real property of physcial systems comprising multiple interacting parts. It manifestly is, and our uniform and repeated experience shows that it is a reliable indicator of intelligent causation."
That's a significant point, thanks for making it. FSCO can stand on its own as a design indicator. I think the addition of FSCI serves to answer certain objections, but is not absolutely necessary to make a design inference, depending on how one goes about it. Uniform and repeated experience is centrally important.
"I am not sure what manner of manufacturing program would be able to supply dFSCI, but the idea is intriguing, so I’ll keep an open mind."
One possibility for representing dFSCI is the input for a 3D printer. As it stands, the technology is capable of printing objects with somewhat complex parts. The input servs as a specification for outputting a concrete object.Chance Ratcliff
March 20, 2013
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CR: Yup, for virtual reality systems and 3-D engineering design models too. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2013
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KF,
"CR: You are spotting something, cf. here on in context (especially Figs I.2 and I.3)"
Interesting. Your examples of 3D objects modeled by graphs reminded me that such models are used as the input for 3D printers, which produce a concrete representation of the input model. Such input could serve as a digital specification.Chance Ratcliff
March 20, 2013
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LT & G2: With all due respect, I must note that the fallacious rhetorical pattern/game continues. Did you not take time to see, G2, that above there was a list of fields in which FSCO/I as a CONCEPT is in abundant, even pervasive use? Or was the "nobody uses it so it must be useless etc" talking point too juicy to let go of? Let me give you an additional case, telecommunications. Have you ever heard of a key measure in that theory, signal/noise power ratio, often expressed in dB? This is one of the pivotal quality metrics, and it pivots on the point that we can so distinguish the characteristics of intelligent signals and natural (chance and necessity) noise, that we can measure them with instruments and take the power ratio. That in turn has to do with how intelligent signals meet functional specificity requirements, leading to readily identifiable patterns. And so, yes, a design inference taken as a matter of course is deeply embedded in our world of wired and wireless communications. As just one further case in point. And so, the attempted piling on fails. Now, LT, I could not but help noticing that you found an excuse to dismiss rather than to address on substance, again. And, to avoid addressing the substantial response. So, let us go right back to the first issue, as something can be built up from that. Do or do you not see that FSCO/I speaks beyond Shannon's metric of information-carrying capacity, to information applied to the world of sending particular messages and using them to do something that is important for some reason? That, that process implies a complex, indeed irreducibly complex framework of components: SOURCE ===> (ENCODER/MODULATOR --> TRANSMISSION UNIT) ===> CHANNEL ===> (RECEIVER UNIT --> DECODER/DEMODULATOR)===> SINK Thus, the existence of an information system/network already speaks to something that is irreducibly complex. Where also, signals that fit that network and carry messages will be functionally specific, and often complex beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. With, as a particularly relevant case:
a --> the DNA --> mRNA --> Ribosome + tRNA + enzymes etc system that b --> effects protein synthesis via storage, unzipping and transcription, c --> maturation of mRNA (remember, this is a point of reprogrammability), d --> transfer in the cellular medium to the ribosome, e --> alignment so that the first AUG is set up, f --> digitally coded selection of successive amino acids loaded unto tRNA's through the CCA universal coupler g --> elongation of a protein string that is so selected in terms of AA sequence that it will fold and function in a specific task in the living cell, where h --> On evidence, fold domains are isolated in the space of possible AA sequences to something like 1 in 10^65 (one atom to a galaxy full of atoms) i --> with the Golgi apparatus "post office" system also being a part of the system, another layer of communication/dispatch network), j --> all being supported by the work of the ATP synthase rotary machine enzyme, which manufactures the energy battery ATP molecules that are pervasive in the cell
This is a capital and undeniable example of functionally specific complex organisation, pivotal to the functioning of cell based life. One that is joined to yet another similarly IC system, the von Neumann self replication mechanism that is a requisite of having reproductive capacity of life. In addition, the protein synthesis system explicitly uses digital codes in a communication system, codes that express functionally specific complex information, leading to protein molecules that are examples of functionally specific complex organisation with directly implied digital information for the sequence. So, the point is more than abundantly underscored that the CONCEPTS and applications of FSCO/I are at work in the living cell, apparently for some 3.5 BY on the usual timeline. In addition to being pervasive in a world of technology all around us, and even a world of textual information. That makes the inductively warranted, reliably known source of FSCO/I highly relevant to understanding the credible best explanation of the living cell. Namely, design. Where, design is a sufficiently common process that we experience every time we compose a post, or as we go about in a technological world, that we should not reasonably have a problem identifying a process and its characteristic results that act as signs pointing to their origin. And yes, I am explicitly inferring on well tested, empirically reliable sign that points here to a signified cause, much as Hippocrates of Cos did in founding the Greek tradition of medicine in C5 BC. (Onlookers, this is a specific, contextual reference to one of the first drive by sniping attempts by LT, back in was it 2011. He tried to muddy the waters on the inductive, and often highly reliable inference from empirical sign to signified state of affairs connected to that sign, even as deer tracks are connected to deer passing by or radar returns to an object capable of reflecting radio waves of the relevant frequency, with range and direction deducible. From time to time since that initial fairly sharp exchange, thankfully, the level of exchanges has improved, but there has been a persistent pattern of return to attempted "gotchas, you ignoramus." That easily explains the subtext of contempt in the latest dismissive remarks and consistent failure to address on substance. Pardon that I am not playing by the game of being emotionally cool just now, but I think that the time has come after two years of provocative behaviour, for a bit of direct reckoning with LT, under Lev 19:15 - 18, for those who want to know what is my ethical basis for what I am doing here, after two years of having him serially play the attempted gotcha game time and again every few weeks or every several months. At some point, it is necessary to reason directly with -- or even take to the figurative woodshed -- someone who has been consistently taking advantage of the normal diffidence that civility requires, to play at gotcha games that then feed the nastiness of the fever swamps out there. Tell us, LT: have you been consistently patrolling and going over by TWT's blog or TSZ or anti evo, Sandwalk, etc to correct them on substance and tone when they ever so often resort to red herrings lead away to strawman caricatures soaked in personal attacks, ignited to poison, polarise, cloud and confuse the atmosphere? When some have tried outing tactics and have violated a simple request that you respect the privacy of my name, including what is in my part of the world a big insult, publicly using someone's middle name without permission? Or, taking real world pictures and defacing them to mock people, including grandmothers? Thus, providing, with location info, targetting info for the lunatic fringe? Not to mention, making mafioso style threats against my family, as in inquiring with mock concern about them, attempting to publicly name my wife in particular? Defacing web sites? And so forth? If you have not been policing your own side LT, you have utterly no moral right or standing to be coming here to play gotcha games, especially ill-informed gotcha games. Period.) I make a little prediction, LT: you are going to find an excuse to duck dealing with the matter on the merits, and will find some way to ignore the substantial matters I have been raising since you popped up again yesterday to do a little piling on drive by dismissal commentary. Please, do us all a big favour: prove me wrong. Good day. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2013
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LT: Many of the preceding comments addressing your objections to ID are very well thought out and well written. Far past the clarity I could bring to exposing the fallacies in your reasoning,,, but in so far as I, in my own slow way, can address the fallacy of your reasoning, in short you are appealing to ANYTHING you can possibly think of appealing to BUT the empirical evidence and/or mathematics to support your preferred position of neo-Darwinism. Which is all fine and well if you really don't care about the truthfulness of your position but just 'want' your position to be true because you find the alternative position 'unthinkable'. But that is the whole point, I don't care what you prefer to be true about reality, I only care about the actual truthfulness of it. i.e. In order to establish neo-Darwinism as superior to ID, especially here on UD where issue are judged on their merit 'scientifically', and not on some neo-Darwinian cheer-leading site,, you MUST deal with the empirics and mathematics and not to the rhetorical devices you have chosen to employ. Especially given the skill I've seen of many UD commentators to dissect your rhetorical arguments to their core.,,, Moreover, as Dr. Torley pointed out recently, if you ever did decide to become honest 'scientifically', you simply have no basis in mathematics or empirics to appeal so as to establish the truthfulness of your position,,,
Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details - Dr. V. J. Torley - February 27, 2013 Excerpt: Evolutionary biology has certainly been the subject of extensive mathematical theorizing. The overall name for this field is population genetics, or the study of allele frequency distribution and change under the influence of the four main evolutionary processes: natural selection, genetic drift, mutation and gene flow. Population genetics attempts to explain speciation within this framework. However, at the present time, there is no mathematical model – not even a “toy model” – showing that Darwin’s theory of macroevolution can even work, much less work within the time available. Darwinist mathematicians themselves have admitted as much.,,, We have seen that there’s currently no good theory that can serve as an adequate model for Darwinian macroevolution – even at a “holistic” level. As we saw, Professor Gregory Chaitin’s toy models don’t go down to the chemical level requested by Professor James Tour, but these models have failed to validate Darwin’s theory of evolution, or even show that it could work. At this point, there is an alternative line that (Nick) Matzke might want to take. He could claim that macroevolution is ultimately explicable in terms of bottom-level laws and physical processes, but that unfortunately, scientists haven’t discovered what they are yet. From a theoretical perspective, reductionism would then be true after all, and the chemical explanation of macroevolution demanded by Professor Tour could be given. From a practical standpoint, however, it would be impossible for scientists to provide such an explanation within the foreseeable future. If Matzke wishes to take this road, then he is tacitly admitting that scientists don’t yet know either the scientific laws (which are written in the language of mathematics) or the physical processes that ultimately explain and drive macroevolution. But if they don’t know either of these, then I would ask him: why should we believe that it actually occurs? After all, mathematics, scientific laws and observed processes are supposed to form the basis of all scientific explanation. If none of these provides support for Darwinian macroevolution, then why on earth should we accept it? Indeed, why does macroevolution belong in the province of science at all, if its scientific basis cannot be demonstrated? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/
bornagain77
March 20, 2013
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CR: You are spotting something, cf. here on in context (especially Figs I.2 and I.3) -- LT's dismissal is little more than a now predictable excuse to not address the matter on the merits, as he full well knows. As Wicken and Orgel said, cumulatively, organisation that is specific and functional implies information. An approach I have repeatedly pointed to is to analyse based on a nodes and arcs framework. Then, the framework can be reduced to the number of structured yes/no questions used to construct it, similar to how say AutoCAD reduces a 3-d drawing to code stored in a computer memory, which is a linear collection of bit-strings. And, specificity can then be tested by seeing the vulnerability to injection of random noise (which creates a random walk on the island of function). KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2013
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Graham2 @ 66 I agree that it's telling us 'something.' But I don't think it means what you think it means. Seriously, check out Semmelweis on Wikipedia.Optimus
March 19, 2013
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EA @ 64
The ID argument is not a deductive argument, but an inductive one. Specifically, it is an inference to the best explanation.
Isn't the IBE that ID employs better characterized as an abductive inference, namely reasoning from present effects to past causes? See SITC pg. 153 Nice summary otherwise, though!Optimus
March 19, 2013
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Optimus, Im not regarding academia as possessing some sort of papal infallibility, and yes, they are mortals just like the rest of us, but science has this great thing going for it: the ideas get tested against reality. The individuals that make up the system muddle along, but the system as a whole tends to discard the dross. Yes, we could all suddenly decide we would like the earth to be flat, but the idea wouldnt last because it wouldnt match reality. We would all love cold fusion to be real, but it wasnt repeatable, so it died, etc etc. Stuff like dFSCI etc may be a revolution in the making, but they have been around for a few years now and have excited precisely zero interest. This has to be telling us something.Graham2
March 19, 2013
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Graham2 @62:
EA: I think you are saying that the ‘explanatory filter’ is just a fancy way of saying ‘common sense’. I totally agree with that. So why didnt Bill just say that ?
Well, I'm glad to hear you think Bill's explanatory filter is common sense. So presumably you won't be making claims about its inadequacy or objecting to its application to biological systems. Yet despite the good judgment you have just shown, it is still valuable for Bill to lay it out in black and white because, unfortunately, common sense seems to elude many people. Particularly those who are wedded to a particular a priori answer without even being willing to consider the possibility of design. (See my last two examples @64.)Eric Anderson
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner @16: I think you are probably familiar with the ID argument, but let me just recap it in brief. The ID argument is not a deductive argument, but an inductive one. Specifically, it is an inference to the best explanation. The ID argument can be written as follows: 1. Cause A regularly produces Effect X. 2. Cause B is not known to produce Effect X. 3. When Effect X is observed, the most likely explanation is that it was caused by Cause A. [Where Cause A = design; Cause B = all known causes other than design; and Effect X = FCSI.] Now, one can quibble with the description of Effect X or the parameters assigned to Effect X. Indeed, at this early stage, much of the ID work has been aimed at defining Effect X in a way that permits both 1 and 2 to be true statements. So we can discuss and debate what qualifies as Effect X, but the ID argument itself is quite simple and straight forward. The ID argument can only be logically challenged by showing that either (i) Cause A does not regularly produce Effect X, or (ii) Cause B can produce Effect X. Due to the fact that Cause A is already known to regularly produce Effect X, as a practical matter the only way to logically challenge the ID argument is to show that Cause B can produce Effect X. However, given our current state of knowledge: (a) there is no affirmative evidence that Cause B can produce Effect X, and (b) there is significant affirmative evidence that it cannot produce Effect X within the parameters of the known universe. ----- Incidentally, if we take the above argument and see how the materialist evolutionist typically treats it, we find something rather instructive. 1. Cause A regularly produces Effect X. 2. Cause B is not known to produce Effect X. 3. We don't like Cause A, so despite the observation of Effect X, the only cause we will consider is Cause B. or 1. Cause A regularly produces Effect X. 2. Cause B is not known to produce Effect X. 3. We don't like Cause A, so despite the observation of Effect X, the most likely cause is some as-yet-undiscovered Cause C.Eric Anderson
March 19, 2013
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Graham2 @ 49,55 It's hard to tell if your being serious with your comments, but on the slim chance that you are, a few things bear pointing out. First, pointing out a general lack of acceptance of an idea within a certain population is hardly an argument against an idea. To think that a majority opinion is tantamount to fact is profoundly wrongheaded. If everyone gets together tomorrow to decide that the earth is flat, it will still be round. If the NAS decided that the geocentric model of the solar system is preferable to the heliocentric model, the earth will not cease revolving around the sun. If you want a solid historical example of a guy with a brilliant scientific insight getting categorically rejected by the establishment, look up Ignaz Semmelweis (especially if you have an interest in the development of germ theory). He was rejected by the medical community even though the data were clearly on his side. He ended up being beaten to death in an insane asylum. The second issue with your comment is that it betrays a seriously naive conception of academia. The academy may be many things, but it is not a purely logical, disinterested referee of thought. Any group of human beings can be stubborn, prejudiced, shortsighted, fearful, and resistant to new ideas. Thirdly, it's hard to fathom how you can simply reject FSCO out of hand like that. It's an empirically known phenomenon that virtually everyone has some practical experience with. An engine, for instance, is obviously a system, the function of which is contingent on the specific organization of its complex structure. That's just a basic observation. It's not even an inference. If we were to separate FSCO from the inference to design in biology, and consider it totally in isolation as a quality of mechanical systems, would you acknowledge its reality?Optimus
March 19, 2013
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EA: I think you are saying that the 'explanatory filter' is just a fancy way of saying 'common sense'. I totally agree with that. So why didnt Bill just say that ?Graham2
March 19, 2013
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Graham2: You are a bit unclear on the explanatory filter so forgive me for going over the basics, but we need to be clear on this point. Dembski was not formulating a proscriptive rule that everyone has to adopt; he was formulating a descriptive account of what actually occurs in practice. I'm sure he would be thrilled if everyone adopted his terminology and dedicated whole university courses to the study of what he called the explanatory filter. But that is hardly needed. Every one of us applies the filter hundreds of times every single day as we go about our lives, often as second nature and without thinking twice about it. Others apply it in a more formal way (SETI, archaeology, forensics, etc.). Dembski's effort was to put down on paper in a descriptive way what actually happens (sometimes almost intuitively) in practice. And, despite lots of criticism from evolutionists, the filter is still a pretty good description of what happens in practice. And yes, everyone who concludes that some object was designed (where the historical evidence is unavailable) uses the filter, whether or not they recognize it or give Dembski any credit for his description of it.Eric Anderson
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner - Let me be more specific. I will point out why I called your arguments childish. 1. You make a point how you first found evolution compelling and then how reading material that advocated evolution made it seem more and more plausible. Fine - this should be counter balanced by mature look at the evidence for ID. You never do this. Your analysis of ID goes 1. You dismiss ID. 2. You wrongly state that the ONLY real testable claim of ID has to do with IC. ( setting up a straw man ) 3. You dismiss the concept of irreducible complexity by saying not enough scholars have worked on it. (agument ad populum) 4. You dismiss FSCO/I by saying not enough scholars have worked on it. (agument ad populum) 5. You dismiss the whole "where does design come from argument" by claiming it can't be right because the claim does not account for where design comes from. (argument ad ignorantium ) BTW - This is just a complete misunderstanding of what ID proposes. ID starts with an Intelligent Designer. Picking a particular designer is religion. The thing that you don't understand is that a premise of ID is that the designer WAS NOT designed. ( If you want to account for the designer by natural processes, then you are just back to claiming Atheistic evolution with a Designer as an intermediate). No one really believes in that. This is why the argument of the infinite regress only shows that the arguer is ignorant. 6. You claim ID does not make a very robust claim ( whatever robust means in that context I don't know). And then claim ID has many open issues and puzzles ( even though you listed none ).( argument by assertion) I conclude that your argument is not a serious set of reasons that logically lead to your conclusions Your whole argument boils down to the assertions of several logical fallicies - namely argumentum ad populum, argumentum ad ignorantium, a strawman, and argument by assertion. This is not a mature argument. I provide this critique because I really don't think you have applied any thought to the arguments of ID. So how I read the evolution of your thought is: 1. I was a theist. 2. I become enamored with Darwinism. 3. I read more from advocates of Darwinism. 4. I read superficial material that advanced superficial arguments about ID. 5. I repeat these superficial arguments about ID until they sound convincing. 6. I never thought seriously about ID ( and I don't want to ) so I dismiss it with these superficial arguments. All I want for you to do is to take a little bit more mature view of ID. Your current understanding of it is childish.JDH
March 19, 2013
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Larry, I think your line of questioning is disingenuous at best. With little more than a single incontrovertible premise, some general logic, and a list of technical details (available to anyone with a mousepad), it can be demonstrated that for life to exist as it does (and for evolution to exist as it does) it requires recorded information to produce physical effects which are not determined by physical law alone. And that phenomenon requires an irreducily complex core of two arrangements of matter allowing an informational medium to constrain the output of a system. This is accomplished by establishing a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship between the arrangement of the medium and its effect. The premise that must be accepted is that it is not possible to transfer information in a material universe without using an arrangement of matter or energy as a medium. You can neither deny that premise, nor the material necessities that follow from it (which are universally observed throughout nature). You should just be upfront and admit there is no form of evdence you'll allow.Upright BiPed
March 19, 2013
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CR @ 36
I understand FSCO/I to be “Functionally specific complex organization/information” so there are definitely two senses implied.
I fully agree, hence I prefer to use FSCO to describe physical systems and FSCI to describe character strings.
Functionally specific complex organization would be a concrete product of design, and the accompanying information would be akin to the instructions by which it could be reproduced. However for the latter, we have to introduce a context, such as a manufacturing process. I’m thinking of a program for an automated factory which could produce a toaster oven, for instance, from constituent materials. This would constitute an object’s digital FSCI.
An interesting thought to be sure. It certainly seems a drastic improvement over other methods that have been discussed on UD before. If memory serves, one proposed method for calculating the dFSCI of a physical system involves measuring it vicariously by calculating the information content of a semantic description of the system (using the standard I= -log2p). This seems fraught with problems, especially inconsistency of description. Depending on the level of detail supplied, the amount of dFSCI for a given object would vary wildly. Imagine the diffence in information content in "car" as opposed to "four-wheeled vehicle utilizing combustion engine"! The fact that such a method would also vary considerably based on language used makes it a non-starter in my view. I am not sure what manner of manufacturing program would be able to supply dFSCI, but the idea is intriguing, so I'll keep an open mind. At any rate, present difficulties in measuring dFSCI in physical systems do not in any way detract from the legitimacy of using FSCO as a qualitative descriptor. It's a point I've made before, but I shall repeat myself: Quantitative descripition is incredibly useful, but it is not the end-all in making productive descriptions of the world. Qualitative description (such as FSCO) is of immense practical value. A few examples will suffice to illustrate the point: Consider the terms 'alive' and 'dead'. Neither has any units or scale of measure. They are wholly qualitative descriptors, but their real-world value is undeniable. Imagine an accused murderer who tried to convince a jury that no murder really happened by claiming that the terms 'alive' and 'dead' have no substance because they are not quantitative descripitons. I doubt he would fare well! Consider too the terms 'functional' and 'non-functional'. Again, they have no units. There's no scale with which to relate these terms. Nevertheless their usefulness is incontrovertible. Even if we can't attach numbers to it, we all recognize the difference between a car that is 'functional' versus one that is 'non-functional'. I suppose the point of all this is merely that even if FSCO forever remains a description without numbers, this does not mean that it isn't a real property of physcial systems comprising multiple interacting parts. It manifestly is, and our uniform and repeated experience shows that it is a reliable indicator of intelligent causation.Optimus
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner @38, The point I was making with the deductions @24 is that there exists a category of objects which are unarguably designed, and a causal phenomenon which is not directly achievable via physics and chemistry. If the logic is in error I'd certainly welcome you pointing it out. But I'll say with no ill will whatsoever, that if you don't agree with the premises, then I don't think we can have a productive conversation. Unless it can be agreed that designed things are unarguably designed, recognizably so, and that we know of no natural processes by which these designs can be achieved by physical necessity absent agency, then I don't want to waste your time or mine. You wrote,
"What is your theory of design? That is, what is design and what are the essential elements of design?"
I can't say that I completely understand the question. The noun form of design is, a concrete product, the result of the activity of design. The verb form is, the execution of a process which produces artifice, craft, and forms that are instantiations -- that is, the concrete products of abstractions. Here's the dictionary definition. But it needs to be made clear that the specifics of how consciousness executes design strategies is not really known, not at a fundamental level. If you're asking me to explain consciousness in order to make the point that human-designed things are indeed designed, then I think it's an unreasonable burden. It should also be noted that you're asking for a theory, so that we can discuss the theory, but the theory is exactly what needs to be reasoned to, and not taken as a starting point. If there's no agreement that an objective category of designed objects exist, namely human design, then we can reason no further. However there is significant background knowledge that is available, so we don't have to consider design in a vacuum, as if it's a theoretical phenomenon that we need to prove rigorously before we know it exists. We observe design, both the process and the product; and in most cases the resultant product is immediately recognizable. I could list countless examples, from buildings and vehicles to computers, clocks, and manufacturing equipment. We know that certain classes of objects result directly from the process of design, and we know it by direct observation and experience. We also know that these products of agency are not the of the material processes of physical necessity; this is a falsifiable assertion. As for a theory of design, I'll present an initial hypothesis: There are certain features of designed objects which differentiate them from objects produced by unguided physical processes. You also asked,
How does one come to know something as designed?
That's the $64,000 question, and the whole point of reasoning about the indicators. If you're asking me to describe how we know something is designed before we take inventory of things known to be designed, then you're putting the cart before the horse, imo. But it would follow from the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is correct, then we know that something is designed because it exhibits the features exclusive to designed objects. We would need to identify those features. Once again though, if no agreement can be had about our direct experience with the design of non-biological artifacts of human engineering, then I'm afraid that this is as far as the conversation can progress. Perhaps you really are an ID skeptic who is genuinely open to the possibility of design in biology, but if you're unwilling to risk admitting to the general soundness of the deductive arguments I presented previously, then we're stalled out, and I will take my leave of the conversation. Best, ChanceChance Ratcliff
March 19, 2013
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Graham2, You seem to be operating under a mistaken idea of what "metaphysical assumptions" are, because science as we have known it for hundreds of years relies entirely upon, and owes virtually all of its success to, theistic metaphysical assumptions.William J Murray
March 19, 2013
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WJM: Spoken like a true philosopher. I was making the point that all the guff from Dembski has led to precisely zero progress in that direction. This is after 10 to 20 years. Zero acceptance, zero results. In fact, thats pretty much the scorecard for ID as a whole. I heartily endorse any effort to explore new stuff, but just be honest about what its achieved. In the meantime, I will rely on 'metaphysical assumptions', which is what science relys on, and what has produced the goods. It is a 'metaphysical assumption' that diseases are caused by germs, not some evil spirit, that sort of thing.Graham2
March 19, 2013
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Graham2 puts a nail in the coffin of the Darwinistic (as described in the O.P.) position:
Imagine if we could really calculate the liklehood that some life form was actually designed … there would be a stampede of academics, all wanting to be the first with the killer paper. It would revolutionise Biology, but there isnt, and it hasnt. Why not ?
The metric that would calculate the likelihood that some biological feature was designed would necessarily be the same metric one would need to falsify design as best explanation. So, according to Graham2, there is no metric available that could determine **if** chance & natural law could produce any biological feature whatsoever. It's all nothing but materialist, metaphysical assumption. So, when the ID proponent asks any Darwinist to support their contention that necessity & chance are sufficient as explanatory forces, according to Graham2 their answer can only be that it is just an assumption. If there is no metric, there is no scientific proof either way. It appears the Darwinists are satisfied with metaphysical assumption; at least ID advocates are attempting to devise actual, scientific methods of making such an evaluation.William J Murray
March 19, 2013
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