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Why on Earth would a layman accept Darwinistic claims?

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First, by “Darwinistic” I mean “atheistic-materialist neo-Darwinist”, which includes the view that even the origin of life can be explained by reference to chance and natural law.

As Alan Fox points out, many of those here are “laymen” when it comes to evolutionary biology.  Most of us are not specifically schooled or trained in that arena – by “us”, I mean anyone who is interested in the debate about Darwinian evolution vs ID-inclusive evolution.  I, like many, have informed myself to a moderate degree about Darwinistic claims and the ID argument, but I’m certainly not a professional scientist, nor a philosopher with any formal academic training.

IMO, a reasonable layman would be highly skeptical of claims that matter, chance & natural law can by themselves  produce the sophisticated software/hardware nano-systems and architecture found in each self-replicating cell, much less produce consciousness, teleological will, intelligence, and imagination.  A reasonable layman would be much more likely to hold – until convinced by a good understanding of compelling evidence otherwise – that consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination most probably come from that which has them or something like them already, and that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, organized, functional machinery that is operational through physically encoded instructions is only known to be originally produced by intelligence via teleological planning.  No one – to my knowledge – has ever witnessed unintelligent natural law, chance, and brute materials originate such devices and mechanisms. There is no good reason to believe that they can.

So I ask pro-Darwinistic, anti-ID laymen, like Alan Fox: without a professional  understanding of the biology, philosophy or logic involved, nor of information systems and theory, chemistry or bio-engineering, why on Earth would you accept that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, functional, self-replicating machines; consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination can be produced (eventually) by the happenstance interactions of brute matter via law and chance?  What is the rational basis for accepting such a view,  especially if you admit that you do not really even understand the evidence/arguments pro or con because you are “just a layman”?

It seems to me laymen who do not feel qualified to argue the logic and the evidence on their own but instead prefer to defer to “experts” are in a situation where they should just remain skeptical of such claims, and certainly shouldn’t be cheerleading one side and dismissing the other.

Comments
LT: Kindly, consider the consistent timing, tone and focus of your interventions. Then look real hard at how you posed the following assertion, after considerable time has had to be AGAIN spent with someone who isn't even bothering to attend to patent facts:
I concede my understanding of the concept may be narrow or even wrongheaded, but my main point is that I would expect FSCO/I to be everywhere if it really did what its proponents say it does. It should be a subject of study in itself and it should be leveraged by very many people in hundreds of academic and non-academic venues. And I say this because the nature of the tool would seem to lend itself to widespread use. Who wouldn’t want to be able to show that X meets the design threshold, and so does Y, but Z does not? Who wouldn’t want to build upon that?
Observe, yet again, I highlighted just how these have been answered to. If you bothered to read the al5eady linked you would have seen where there is a definite answer to the question you pretended was not answered:
What I don’t see very clearly is people making ID use of the concept and advancing ID arguments with/through it. Eric, you seem like a responsive one. Would you please give me an example of a ID argument, in syllogism form, that uses FSCO/I measurement?
Do you not see why a pointed correction is in order? Then, notice, how you tried to make light of what you did, having been pointedly corrected. In particular, can you at least now acknowledge the ubiquity of FSCO/I and acknowledge that it is present in DNA and protein, thus is a feature of cell based life worthy of explanation? And, that it is quantified and used in design inference based on the 500 bit threshold [sometimes, I use a bit more stringent one, 1,000 bits]. As in there is something called the design inference explanatory filter, which works, per abundant tests. Then, kindly consider that we here deal with an origins science question. So, we cannot observe the actual deep past. We must therefore seek to infer a best, empirically warranted explanation, however limited, on the evidence we do have concerning adequate causes. In that light, knowing that you know or should know that this challenge is pervasive on origins of the cosmos, the solar system, earth, earth forms, life and body plans, I find that you are playing at selectively hyperskeptical rhetorical games, demanding answers to all sorts of things in order to avoid facing something that is indeed abundantly well warranted. namely, that there is just one empirically attested source for FSCO/I; design. In a context where needle in haystack search challenges make it maximally implausible that blind chance and mechanical necessity can account for same. As has been explained and linked to you over and over and over again. So yes, you are coming across as annoying and playing at pile on go in circles rhetorical games. Sorry if that directness offends you, but I think it is time to speak straight on the point. If you object to the above empirical and analytical claims on the source of FSCO/I, the serious response is quite simple: show how, on observation, it can be and is repeatably created by blind chance and mechanical necessity without intelligent direction. Please, do better next time. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2013
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...why on Earth would you accept that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, functional, self-replicating machines; consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination can be produced (eventually) by the happenstance interactions of brute matter via law and chance?
I don't happen to think that the premise assumed in your question is correct. There are lots of partial explanations of aspects of how life on Earth has diversified over the three billion years or so since its arrival on Earth. There is no good evidence-based explanation as yet for how life (self-sustaining self-replicators) originally arose. However I am unpersuaded by Biblical accounts (or other creation myths) for the origins of life. I am quite resigned to the mystery of life's origins remaining a mystery. Someone (can't remember who) likened human knowledge of the universe to that of the awareness of an ant scurrying around in the cracks on the side-walk next to the Empire State Building. There seems a sort of arrogance amongst some who believe they know the answers to life, the universe and everything. Me, I'm travelling hopefully. In the meantime, I'm quite comfortable with the true answer "we don't really know, yet" to making something up. I've been reading up on some American philosophers and I wonder if you were aware of Willard Quine (1908 -2000)? It seems self-evident to me that all we know of the world around us arrives solely via our sensory inputs and I learn Quine apparently says something similar and regards science as "the final arbiter of truth". I also see that Daniel Dennett was a student of Quine and I guess some here might think that Dennett extends Quine's ideas too far.Alan Fox
March 19, 2013
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For my own two cents about FSCO/I, I think it has definite descriptive value for both mechanical systems and character strings. It simply describes some system the function of which is dependant on the specific way in which its parts are organized. To say that a system is complex in this context is to say that it possesses irregularity, as opposed to regularity (rather like a crystal). At this point its ability to give a numerical value to physical systems is not there (in my opinion). In other words, for some physical system (engine, bicycle, toaster oven, etc.) FSCO/I functions as a qualitative description . For a character string (binary sequence, DNA sequence, protein sequence, etc.) FSCO/I functions as a quantitative description . Again, just my two cents.. .Optimus
March 19, 2013
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LT @ 6 Thank you for your comment. Though I disagree about the comparative merits of the modern synthetic theory versus ID, it is nevertheless refreshing to read a sincere statement of why you feel as you do. We have been dealing with a lot of insincere, dismissive commentary of late, so pardon the raised hackles. I think everyone's a bit touchy at the moment.Optimus
March 19, 2013
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Joe:
Next we have the design criteria, which is met in spades.
Show me, Joe. Show me the criteria being met. I'm telling you I'm open-minded, whether you believe me or not. I would be delighted if your next comment applied the design criteria to something specific and showed me how the criteria were met.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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Laymen??? Its not that difficult to understand a hypothesis without evidence backing it up! Evolutionary biology is a simple idea of cause and effect and no training is needed to expand on it! Mr Murray. you seem to accept descent or evolution etc . Do you have any, i say any, scientific biological evidence for evolution to have created a next stage to some previous stage of biology? No bacteria stuff but real change in body plans. Your favourite one if a YEC may ask!! Bet you don;t (but I don't bet money)Robert Byers
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner:
The question of the OP is “why would a layman accept Darwinian claims?” I responded to that questions with as direct an answer as I could muster: because the claims and the reasoning that support them seem strong, and much stronger than the claims and reasoning behind ID.
Forgive us larry, but that seems like total BS to us. The "reasoning" behind darwinian claims is to not allow a designer's foot into the door. And darwinian claims are not supported by the evidence. What is it about ID that we find so convincing? Well, for one, the fact that darwinian explanations do not exist in a scientific context- ie there doesn't seem to be any way of testing the claim that natural selection is a designer mimic. Having more (or less) offspring doesn't give us any new body plans. You need much more than that. So that one mandated hurdle is traversed. Next we have the design criteria, which is met in spades. So we have the two things- lack of evidence for darwinian evolution and plenty of evidence for intentional design. Cause and effect relationships, Larry. And if we ever observe nature, operating freely, producing CSI (or any of its derivatives), our inference would be neatly refuted. It is as simple as that.Joe
March 19, 2013
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Folks, The question of the OP is "why would a layman accept Darwinian claims?" I responded to that questions with as direct an answer as I could muster: because the claims and the reasoning that support them seem strong, and much stronger than the claims and reasoning behind ID. That's this one layman's opinion, and since you asked I wanted to share. I also chose to share in an executive summary-type fashion. I saw no need to write a dissertation; I only wanted to voice my opinion. By sharing, I was then scolded in comment 7 to say I might be part of an unsavory ilk. In comment 11 I was accused of being part of "a particularly cheap and annoying pile on." Comment 12 told me I had "ZERO" (all caps) evidence. My favorite, comment 14, lovingly implores me not to stay in ignorance, and then calls my arguments "childish." In comment 13, Eric nicely asks for clarification. To him I answer that no, I do not have a substantive issue at all with FSCO/I such as I understand it. I get that it is a real concept and useful. What I don't see very clearly is people making ID use of the concept and advancing ID arguments with/through it. Eric, you seem like a responsive one. Would you please give me an example of a ID argument, in syllogism form, that uses FSCO/I measurement? Anyways, I think the real question is why anyone should accept ID claims that some natural features are best explained as products of intelligent design. For me, I cannot even formulate the question without getting lost in all of the side questions that necessarily appear: how many designers? when? what constitutes a design? can development incorporate both design and accident, and how can we tell? Is a design a separate thing from that which is the product of design? And so on. I also don't get the argument "that consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination most probably come from that which has them or something like them already, and that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, organized, functional machinery that is operational through physically encoded instructions is only known to be originally produced by intelligence via teleological planning." One issue is that your consciousness doesn't "come from" your parents, in the sense that your parents did not decide "Hey, today's the day we give little William his consciousness!" In this sense none of of give consciousness or will to offspring or to anything else. Rather, we inherit consciousness; it's part of the way the human body works. Another issue is that, yes, people make sophisticated machines. But so what? Other species can use tools, and human technology is a relatively recent innovation in our development. Could life's different machines have arisen and developed naturally over billions of years? Surely the answer to this question cannot be stranger than the answer to whether life's different machine were made by some being who either created or visited earth a long time ago. WJM, it's your thread, but I would love to know exactly what it is about ID that you and others find so convincing.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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(sorry for my english) I am another laymen in darwinism. Thank to them I became a Bible believer when I realized that people so stubborn, that even do not believe in logic but anyway they see themselves the only "rational", that they dismiss the evidence contrary to their "fact" the evolution by chance....Those God-haters, those blinded by themselves are the army of a powerful force that the Bible refers to many times: the "father of lies". So thank you, Kantian Naturalist, Alan Fox...and your masters Dawkins, Coyne...you all gave me the key to the Truth.creatoblepas
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner Please don't stay in your ignorance. You present some of the poorest arguments for your viewpoint I have ever seen. That these are your first arguments shows that you really have not thought this issue through. I'm sure others will point out the logical fallacies ( argument ad populum, argument ad ignorantiam ) but it pains me that you take such a hard stance when your reasoning is so poor. I am not saying that strong arguments for the athheistic-materialistic Darwinist viewpoint do not exist, it's just that the arguments you list are childish, and certainly not something I would base my life on. Please reconsider your loyalty to Darwinism. If studying for so long has not given you the ability to support your viewpoint without presenting specious arguments standing upon logical fallacies, its time to start doubting Darwin.JDH
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner @8:
It should be a subject of study in itself and it should be leveraged by very many people in hundreds of academic and non-academic venues.
Why and in what sense? Because they are trying to figure out whether some object they are working with was designed? Typically that is not at issue. It is at issue in some fields of discovery (SETI, forensics, etc.) and similar principles are used in those fields, although they may use other terminology. Design principles are regularly used and invoked in many fields and digital functional complex specified information is ubiquitous in computer science, as KF mentions @11. Do you have a substantive issue with the concept, or are you just pointing out that scientists have not yet generally adopted UB's terminology?Eric Anderson
March 19, 2013
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LT, since you have ZERO evidence that purely Darwinian processes can produce enough non-trivial functional information for even a single functional protein:
Now Evolution Must Have Evolved Different Functions Simultaneously in the Same Protein - Cornelius Hunter - Dec. 1, 2012 Excerpt: In one study evolutionists estimated the number of attempts that evolution could possibly have to construct a new protein. Their upper limit was 10^43. The lower limit was 10^21. http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/25/953.long These estimates are optimistic for several reasons, but in any case they fall short of the various estimates of how many attempts would be required to find a small protein. One study concluded that 10^63 attempts would be required for a relatively short protein. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2199970 And a similar result (10^65 attempts required) was obtained by comparing protein sequences. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022519377900443 Another study found that 10^64 to 10^77 attempts are required. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723 And another study concluded that 10^70 attempts would be required. In that case the protein was only a part of a larger protein which otherwise was intact, thus making the search easier. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0000096 These estimates are roughly in the same ballpark, and compared to the first study giving the number of attempts possible, you have a deficit ranging from 20 to 56 orders of magnitude. Of course it gets much worse for longer proteins. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/12/now-evolution-must-have-evolved.html?showComment=1354423575480#c6691708341503051454
And yet we have direct empirical confirmation that intelligence can do as such:
Viral-Binding Protein Design Makes the Case for Intelligent Design Sick! (as in cool) - Fazale Rana - June 2011 Excerpt: When considering this study, it is remarkable to note how much effort it took to design a protein that binds to a specific location on the hemagglutinin molecule. As biochemists Bryan Der and Brian Kuhlman point out while commenting on this work, the design of these proteins required: "...cutting-edge software developed by ~20 groups worldwide and 100,000 hours of highly parallel computing time. It also involved using a technique known as yeast display to screen candidate proteins and select those with high binding affinities, as well as x-ray crystallography to validate designs.2" If it takes this much work and intellectual input to create a single protein from scratch, is it really reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes could accomplish this task routinely? In other words, the researchers from the University of Washington and The Scripps Institute have unwittingly provided empirical evidence that the high-precision interactions required for PPIs requires intelligent agency to arise. http://www.reasons.org/viral-binding-protein-design-makes-case-intelligent-design-sick-cool
Then why do you LT, since you have no confirming empirical evidence for neo-Darwinism, want neo-Darwinism to be true? Is it a psychological problem with God such as what Nagel admitted to?
“I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.” - Nagel http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3
LT, as to your gripe that functional information is not really measured in life by anyone of real importance, well, I thought this recent experiment, measured it quite well,,,
Towards practical, high-capacity, low-maintenance information storage in synthesized DNA - January 2013 Excerpt: Here we describe a scalable method that can reliably store more information than has been handled before. We encoded computer files totalling 739 kilobytes of hard-disk storage and with an estimated Shannon information of 5.2?×?106 bits into a DNA code, synthesized this DNA, sequenced it and reconstructed the original files with 100% accuracy. Theoretical analysis indicates that our DNA-based storage scheme could be scaled far beyond current global information volumes and offers a realistic technology for large-scale, long-term and infrequently accessed digital archiving. In fact, current trends in technological advances are reducing DNA synthesis costs at a pace that should make our scheme cost-effective for sub-50-year archiving within a decade. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11875.html
bornagain77
March 19, 2013
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LT: There is a certain discipline called computer science that studies functionally specific complex digitally coded information. In engineering, there are ever so many objects that are functionally specific, based on complex and exacting wiring diagrams or blueprints (ROBOTS BEING A CAPITAL CASE IN POINT), and so forth. Buildings, cars, road networks, computer networks, telephony networks, broadcast studios, and so forth. The very text of the posts you make, in English, are strings of ASCII characters that to function must be specific per the requisites of textual English, in order to communicate effectively. And so on and so forth. IN SHORT, DESPITE PRETENCES AND TALKING POINTS TO THE CONTRARY, THE CONCEPT IS SIMPLE AND EXAMPLES ARE UTTERLY COMMON ALL AROUND US, SO IT SHOULD BE READILY GRASPED BY REASONABLY INFORMED PEOPLE IN AN INFORMATION AGE. In the biological and OOL contexts, the concept was raised by Orgel and Wicken in the 1970's as a distinguishing characteristic of organised cell based life that marks it apart from things like crystals and tars of random polymers, etc. Indeed, the summary descriptive term and the abbreviations FSCO/I and FSCI are directly derived from these terms. GP has added dFSCI for digitally coded FSCI as is found in DNA, notoriously. Proteins, built up through algorithmic control of mRNA transcribed from DNA, implicitly carry the same information, and of course their sequences are highly specifically constrained by requisites of folding and biological function in life forms. If you want major ID figu4res using similar concepts, Dembski speaks of complex specified information and how in biology it is cashed out in function. Meyer, in his book, Signature in the Cell, is speaking about the same basic concept. And so forth, and so much and so more ad nauseum. All this has been pointed out, including in your presence; over and over again literally over the course of years, so -- with all due respect -- I simply cannot find it that your remarks, to be frank, come across as anything above a particularly cheap and annoying pile on, time wasting going in circles rhetorical gambit following up AF's antics, on the latest distraction, the pretence that there is no such thing as functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information, or that this is a product of my silly ill informed little imagination, or it is meaningless or biologically irrelevant or a signature of Creationist hidden agenda theocratic agendas hiding in the guise of the second law of thermodynamics and the entropy concept, or the like. If, I am simply being over- irritable after having had to deal with AF's antics, and you really, genuinely want/need a 101, after all this time and any number of opportunities to have long since learned what is going on, I suggest here on for starters. Good day. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2013
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In a nutshell, the more I learn about modern evolution and the various sciences that bear upon it, the more likely it seems to be the right track toward knowing how reality works and how it developed from deep in the past up to now.
Interesting. The more that *I* have learned about evolution, especially as it relates to a Darwinian framework, the LESS likely I am to believe its "findings". BWC ("Before Watson & Crick"), it was a lot easier to swallow the claims of Darwin though folks like Wallace had already skewered some of the theory. However, since he discovery of DNA and all of the molecular science and biochemistry advances, it is really impossible, for me, to believe that unguided, random processes could turn inanimate matter into Beethoven, LeBron James or the Kardashians. No, indeed, the more I study the issue, the more I recognize that the typical Darwinist believes in his paradigm due to a priori philosophical and religious reasons. Thomas Nagel has pulled that curtain away, and he, an admitted atheist, says that Darwinian evolution is a fairy tale unsupported by evidence. He believes in some type of materialist teleology, and I choose to believe in an Intelligent Designer.OldArmy94
March 19, 2013
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LarTanner- Darwin's "theory" is void of details and the modern synthesis is also vague. No one knows what makes an organism what it is. Evolutionary biologists may think it's (in) the DNA but that has yet to be demonstrated and some have said it has been refuted. Ev-devo (developmental biology) hasn't offered any insights as to what determines form- see "Why Is a Fly Not a Horse?" And FSCO/I is everywhere. People just call it by its ordinary name, information. However in these debates darwinists like to conflate the ordinary use of the word information with Shannon information. Therefor it became a necessity for IDists to come up with terminology to put a halt to your side's continued conflation and equivocation. So we have. Yet all that has accomplished is to give you guys something else to grumble about. That said, Intelligent Design evolution is well supported by evolutionary and genetic algorithms. We see the power of a targeted search and have demonstrated its utility. What do you think the odds are of finding the weasel's target phrase if the target phrase was taken out of the program?Joe
March 19, 2013
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Just to clarify:
FSCO/I is something of a mystery to me. It’s supposed to be a metric for helping identify if something is likely a product of design, so I would expect to see it all over the place. It should be in papers, journals, etc. There should be boutique websites dedicated to breaking down the FSCO/I content of everyday items and places.
I concede my understanding of the concept may be narrow or even wrongheaded, but my main point is that I would expect FSCO/I to be everywhere if it really did what its proponents say it does. It should be a subject of study in itself and it should be leveraged by very many people in hundreds of academic and non-academic venues. And I say this because the nature of the tool would seem to lend itself to widespread use. Who wouldn't want to be able to show that X meets the design threshold, and so does Y, but Z does not? Who wouldn't want to build upon that? In any case, I know the arguments here that refer to Orgel, etc. I also know about the Dembski-Marks papers. These are not what I am talking about.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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LT: On FSCO/I, start here, AF was just corrected on this for all to see. Do you wish to join that ilk? KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2013
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William J. Murray, If you don't mind, I would like to respond to your question as it applies to why I "accept Darwinistic claims." You may know that I am a former humanities scholar and now business development and contracts guy at a robotics company. I was also a student of my own religion and definitely a theist until I was almost 39 years old. The first response to your question is that I don't consider myself accepting Darwinistic claims. Or at least I don't feel I buy them wholly, unconditionally, and with no possibility of skepticism or questioning. Yet, the original theory laid out by Darwin and Wallace is compelling, and my reading of subsequent developments in the natural sciences tells me that these developments refine and strengthen the theory, even while posing very interesting new questions for it. In a nutshell, the more I learn about modern evolution and the various sciences that bear upon it, the more likely it seems to be the right track toward knowing how reality works and how it developed from deep in the past up to now. I would say, however, that to the extent modern evolutionary theory is acceptable, it is orders of magnitude more acceptable than ID. As far as I can tell, the only real testable claim of ID has to do with irreducible complexity, and I cannot see that this claim/argument has been developed significantly--not that it seems a particularly "damaging" claim against evolution. FSCO/I is something of a mystery to me. It's supposed to be a metric for helping identify if something is likely a product of design, so I would expect to see it all over the place. It should be in papers, journals, etc. There should be boutique websites dedicated to breaking down the FSCO/I content of everyday items and places. Finally, it is right and proper to be skeptical of the claim "that consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination most probably come from that which has them or something like them already, and that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, organized, functional machinery that is operational through physically encoded instructions is only known to be originally produced by intelligence via teleological planning." This claim asserts that consciousness probably came from consciousness, and that designed things come from designers. The problem is that the claim gives no indication of where consciousness itself comes from or where designers come from. Ultimately, in my mind ID itself doesn't make a very robust claim, and certainly a less comprehensive and detailed argument than modern evolutionary theory. So the answer to your question, from my point of view, is not so much that I as a layman accept Darwinism but that my estimation tells me there is more to Darwinism than to ID. Whatever Darwinism's open issues and puzzles, ID's are much bigger and deeper. Please don't think I am trying to pick a fight. I'm not. But you ask an interesting question that I believe deserves to be answered seriously, and my intent is to do that.LarTanner
March 19, 2013
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Years ago I was certainly a layman in every sense of the word in that I knew next to nothing about the 'science' behind neo-Darwinism. I assumed, out of my immense respect for science, that there must certainly be something to Darwinism or the popular magazines would not continually support Darwinism without question. But I also knew that God was real from the times in my life, at very low points in my life, that God, through his compassion, would be there for me in tangible ways. Tangible ways such as the following,,,
ALF's Miracle https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HyqZQemXGK9eYJ3NwZtTIg2r_BQnAYasrwbqAiqJRM/edit
Thus I figured God must of somehow used Darwinian processes in His formation of life on this world. The first inkling I got that something was terribly amiss with the 'science' of Darwinism was when I read 'Darwin on Trial', by Phillip Johnson back in the 1990's,,,
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
,,,learning, from Professor Johnson, that the fossil record looked nothing like what Darwinists continually portrayed it to be to the general public was a real eye-opener to put it mildly (the Cambrian Explosion and long tern stasis of forms in the fossil record, was pretty dramatic effect in that regards). The second thing that clued me in, as a layman, that something was terribly amiss with neo-Darwinism, was when I read 'Darwin's Black Box' by Dr. Michael Behe, also back in the 1990's, and learned that there were many 'irreducibly complex' machines and systems within the cell that are very resistant to the gradual processes envisioned in neo-Darwinism. Dr. Behe has subsequently developed his argument much further today, and it turns out that the 'limits' that Dr. Behe had originally envisioned to what Darwinian processes can do, are now much more severe than he first realized in his first book 'Darwin's Black Box':
What are the Limits of Darwinism? A Presentation by Dr. Michael Behe at the University of Toronto - November 15th, 2012 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_XN8s-zXx4
The third peg to be knocked out from under the Darwinian stool for me, as a layman, was when I read 'Genetic Entropy' by Dr. John Sanford,,
Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 Dr. John Sanford "Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome" 1/2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ-4umGkgos
,,,in which I learned that the beneficial to deleterious mutation rate was nowhere near what Darwinists needed it to be to make neo-Darwinism work. What I have, as a layman, subsequently learned from Meyers, Dembski, Axe, Nelson Wells, Berlinski, Luskin, etc..,, and from digging through the scientific literature myself, has only solidified my resolve that we are not dealing with a 'science', in any meaningful since of the word, in Darwinism, as to something we can test and falsify, but we are instead dealing with a full fledged atheistic religion masquerading as science.bornagain77
March 19, 2013
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"Why on Earth would a layman accept Darwinistic claims?" Isn't It obvious, WJM? Because their molecules told them to. Good thing you don't listen to your molecules. Otherwise you might be an "atheistic-materialist neo-Darwinist".lastyearon
March 18, 2013
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For the layman and the professional ID theory fits much better with reality. Dawkins himself famously admitted to this: “Living objects look designed, they look overwhelmingly as though they’re designed. Biology is the study of complicated things which give the impression of having been designed for a purpose.” It takes years and years of 'training' of the mind to believe that life is not designed - to get rid of this laymanship. And even then teleological descriptions of life keep slipping in every other sentence. So indeed the question is: why on earth would a layman accept Darwinistic claims?Box
March 18, 2013
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I agree, sagebrush. My question is really directed at a point Alan Fox made in another thread where he basically called most of us "laymen" in terms of evolutionary biology as if that somehow by itself should count against our arguments. In another thread, he deferred to attempt to engage KF on the subject of FSCO/I and invited him to another site where professionals could take up the argument. I am comfortable making the arguments I make. If I don't feel I have enough of a grasp on a subject to argue, I certainly do not dismiss with prejudice that which I don't have a proper understanding of. Generally, i just don't participate in such discussions. Laymen like Alan Fox want to have their cake and eat it too; they want many ID advocates here to be discredited because they are laymen in terms of evolutionary biology, but then turn around and fully accept evidence and argument that falls outside of their area of expertise, and cheerlead that position. Theyh can't have it both ways.William J Murray
March 18, 2013
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I am skeptical of the idea that you have to be an expert on a subject before you can criticize the "experts" in a field. Must you have a complete understanding of deferents and epicycles before you can criticize Ptolemaic astronomy? Do you need a degree in civil engineering before you can complain about potholes in the street? I think that experts can have blind spots or even a tacit agreement among themselves to ignore "the elephant in the room" and it is considered poor taste for anyone outside the club to point out the elephant.sagebrush gardener
March 18, 2013
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