At Phys.org: NASA gets serious about UFOs

Relatd/46:

Traveling faster than light is happening now with galaxies moving away from us at (fancy term) superluminal velocities. Look it up.

Yes, the galaxies are "moving away from us" at superluminal velocities; however, that doesn't mean the galaxy itself is "moving" at a superluminal velocity. Instead, space and time itself are expanding at superluminal speeds--which carry along the galaxies.

At the sub-atomic/quantum level, everything falls apart. An observed object can be in two (or more) quantum states at once. Next fancy term, quantum superposition.

You don't seem to grasp that quantum mechanics describes particle and motions having the speed limit of light. Entanglement happens at the speed of light; not faster. Quantum weirdness has nothing to do with physics falling apart once you attempt to play make-believe and consider things moving faster than light.

So-called science fiction has been written by people working in actual science. It’s speculation followed by experiment and observation that leads to real world breakthroughs. Not, “Oh, everything that’s worth inventing has been invented so we might as well close the Patent Office now.” Me paraphrasing an actual proposal regarding the Patent Office.

Yes, and the scientists in the late 1960's, who knew about quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, the Big Bang, and computer science, they got things exactly right in 2001, A Space Odyssey. Where's "Hal"?

Scientists have been creating these quantum states with larger and larger particles. Quantum Entanglement involves what appears to be instantaneous action over a relatively great distance. The maximum range is either unknown or has not been published.

They haven't been "creating" these entangled states, they've been "identifying" them. It is definitively NOT "instantaneous action" at a distance. It's the wave functions becoming entangled at the speed of light. Which leads to . . .

So, if a spaceship could be entangled with a distant planet, you could go there quickly.

How do you know that the spaceship isn't already entangled with a distant planet? Have you called up the planet? Make believe. Entanglement has been a mystery since Schrodinger, in the early 30's, began reflecting on it--and having defined it, saw the problems with it. It is very strange that a photon coming from space can become 'entangled' with one from earth before it was even produced here--the kind of results from experiments that have shown up recently. In my view, these types of experiments do no more that to point out the problem in our understanding of "measurement," something ill-defined in quantum mechanics to this day. I wouldn't bet my spaceship on this notion of entanglement being right in the long-run. PaV

@Relatd #59 Are you still plagiarizing? Truthfully, I have absolutely no clue what you're trying to prove here—you're all over the place with the spam. Qualified? Can you define what you mean by qualified? Considering that the phenomenon was brand new, and therefore unknown, it's quite reasonable to assume that nobody was qualified to study UFOs during this timeframe, even the most eminent scientists. I did point to one group of researchers, but you dismissed them as being irrelevant—a noticeably reoccurring tactic of yours. As the saying goes, you can lead horse to the water, but can't make him drink the water. Perhaps you'll have better luck convincing someone else. Cheers KRock

KRock at 58, Name one "qualified" researcher. NONE, as in none of the early groups relied on esoteric anything. The early saucer clubs were composed of average citizens who believed that UFOs were spaceships from other worlds. 1948 - Fate magazine launches in the Spring. The cover shows a highly distorted painting of the ninth object Kenneth Arnold saw. None of the remaining 8 objects were circular but were identical to each other. 1952 - Aerial Phenomena Research Organization (APRO). 1953 - Flying Saucers from Outer Space, a book by Major Donald E. Keyhoe, U.S. Marine Corps (ret.) appears. From the back cover: The Air Force, and its investigating agency, "Project Bluebook," are aware of Major Keyhoe's conclusion that the the "Flying Saucers" are from another planet. Some of the personnel believe that there may be some strange natural phenomena completely unknown to us, but that if the apparently controlled maneuvers reported by many competent observers are correct, then the only remaining explanation is the interplanetary answer. Very Truly Yours (signed) Albert M. Chop Air Force Press Desk Dated 26 January 1953 1954 - Civilian Saucer Intelligence is formed in New York. October, 1956 - NICAP, National Investigation Committee on Aerial Phenomena. And so on. Average people were seeing and photographing flying saucers. Period. 1967 - "Last fall, the U. S. Air Force put up $313,000 to finance the first major study of UFOs — and of the behavioral characteristics of saucer-sighters — at the University of Colorado, with an eight-man team headed by Dr. Edward U. Condon, a distinguished atomic physicist. In September. Dr. G. N. Patterson, director of the University of Toronto's Institute for Aerospace Studies, told Maclean’s that a group of Toronto scientists was starting its own investigation — hopefully with U. S. and Canadian government participation. The project was launched several weeks later at a seminar in Toronto attended by Dr. J. Allen Hynek, director of Northwestern University’s Lindheimer Astronomical Research Center and an open-minded consultant on UFOs to the U. S. Air Force." Excerpt from the November 1, 1967 MACLEAN"S magazine. So this has all happened before. relatd

@Relatd #55 There's a couple of things I'd like to address with respect to your last comment. Before I begin, though, I'm wondering if you can confirm whether or not your name is Ed, or more specifically, Edwest3? Because if you're not him, you certainly like plagiarizing his work. Having said that, we can never know for sure that you are indeed Edwest3; therefore I believe I'm entirely justified in inferring that you plagiarized his comments—almost verbatim—from another discussion thread. Even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt, you've still managed to show how lazy you really are, as you literally copied and pasted a comment, which I'm sure you'll claim you wrote. Moving on, Firstly, you're two choices represent a false dichotomy. For example, it is entirely possible that UFOs are merely constructs of our own human conciseness, meaning that they are neither man made craft or come from other planets/worlds, but are optical illusions created in the human brain (for the record, I don't subscribe to this theory). Secondly, I'd like clarify that my reference to western esotericism and ufology was to highlight the historical significance of how researchers, since the very beginning of the modern UFO era, have relied on such practices and teachings as a means of understanding the nature of the phenomenon. Whether you think the comments are superficial is your own prerogative—I could care less. Thirdly, everything you've mentioned is still a matter of conjecture—not evidence against the reality of UFOs. In fact, your so-called arguments (if one can even call them that) tell us nothing; you're simply regurgitating the same old talking points that UFO skeptics have used for decades, all of which have been dealt with by far more qualified researchers than myself. KRock

Superluminal velocities are apparent. Meaning they are illusory due to perspective. ET

OK. Maybe they are advanced humans from by-gone errors. Some live under the water and others inside the Moon with concealed entrances on the far side. Too many accounts from well-trained aviators to just brush it away. Too many accounts throughout history, to just brush away. Is Shag Harbour a civilian and military conspiracy? ET

KRock at 52, I've seen zero evidence of actual research about the subject here from others. Just superficial or esoteric comments that do not address the issue - at all. 1) Flying saucers come from other worlds. 2) Flying saucers are made on earth. Only 2) makes sense. Here is the relevant information. 1938: Henri Coanda patents his Lenticular Aerodyne. It is a classic biconvex flying saucer. This is the same man who is known for the "Coanda Effect." He was living and working in France when the war started. He is located by the Germans in 1940 and put to work further developing this aircraft. During the war, Josef Andreas Epp does development work on a similar craft. See https://www.amazon.de/Die-Realität-Flugscheiben-Gernot-Geise/dp/3895396052/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&qid=1625252971&refinements=p_27:Andreas+Epp&s=books&sr=1-2&text=Andreas+Epp 1945: Henri Coanda is being sought by the French authorities for collaboration with the Germans. He is located by a combined Anglo-American intelligence team and brought to the United States. In a post-war interview, Coanda states that the Russians captured the others he was working with. Russia fields this technology before the U.S. and overflies the United States shortly after the war. By 1947, the consensus among those in Air Force intelligence is that the flying saucers are Russian. In the meantime, a separate, highly secret, program is created to develop this technology in the U.S. relatd

@JHolo #53 You have a better chance of drawing a one-ended stick than getting Relatd to actually research something KRock

Relatd: You’re not very good at this research thing, are you?

You might want to look into why they use terms like "apparent superluminal motions. There is a reason for it. JHolo

@Relatd #39 "BSRA was nothing." That's your own personal opinion—nothing more. "Project Magnet was never well documented." That's probably because the program itself was underfunded and was never officially authorized by the Canadian government. More importantly though, your claim that the project was not well documented has nothing to do with my point regarding Wilbert Smith—absolutely nothing. "Steven Greer is a quack, not a Ufologist." Again, this is your own personal opinion—nothing more. "Blavatsky? Yeah, let’s throw her nonsense books out there." Why wouldn't I? Her theosophical teachings were influential among some of the earliest UFO enthusiasts, as well as with many present day ufologists. Meaning Blavatsky in general is relevant to my over all point, which is that many researchers—from the earliest days of the so-called modern UFO era—have relied on western esotericism as a means of understanding the phenomenon. Honestly, your responses are boarding on the level of "weapons grade stupid." KRock

JH at 49, KF is on my Verboten Forever list. The author of War and Peace is turning in his grave - after brief exposure to KF's posts from the beyond. relatd

JH at 48, You're not very good at this research thing, are you? https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.04374 You may want to stick with those 'other' subjects. relatd

Relatd: I suspect the issues you mention are of concern to you and some here, but that’s it. And to just start talking about them anywhere on any thread suggests an obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Then you should take it up with KF. He is the one who keeps bringing up abortion on threads not about abortion. JHolo

Relatd: Traveling faster than light is happening now with galaxies moving away from us at (fancy term) superluminal velocities. Look it up.

I did. And this is what I found.

In truth, individual galaxies typically move through space at relatively slow speeds: between 0.05% and 1.0% the speed of light, no more.

JHolo

JH at 45, I suspect the issues you mention are of concern to you and some here, but that's it. And to just start talking about them anywhere on any thread suggests an obsessive-compulsive disorder. relatd

PaV at 44, Traveling faster than light is happening now with galaxies moving away from us at (fancy term) superluminal velocities. Look it up. At the sub-atomic/quantum level, everything falls apart. An observed object can be in two (or more) quantum states at once. Next fancy term, quantum superpopsition. So-called science fiction has been written by people working in actual science. It's speculation followed by experiment and observation that leads to real world breakthroughs. Not, "Oh, everything that's worth inventing has been invented so we might as well close the Patent Office now." Me paraphrasing an actual proposal regarding the Patent Office. Scientists have been creating these quantum states with larger and larger particles. Quantum Entanglement involves what appears to be instantaneous action over a relatively great distance. The maximum range is either unknown or has not been published. So, if a spaceship could be entangled with a distant planet, you could go there quickly. relatd

PaV: First of all, this is complete rubbish. Second of all, I’ve never seen you post here before. So how would you have any idea whatsoever as to where threads end up?

I’ve been posting here for a couple months. I have also looked at some of the longer threads going back a couple years. Abortion was repeatedly brought up on the school shooting threat. Same sex marriage, transgendered and objective/subjective morality have been discussed on several threads who’s OP was not about these issues. JHolo

Relatd: Yes, what are the power requirements? They must be immense if you were to travel faster than light. However, traveling faster means "breaking the light-speed barrier," at which point, all the mathematics describing our universe fall apart. So, no, I don't think traveling faster than the speed of light is possible. The phantasy you find in science-fiction movies is that of 'wormholes' and such. But John Wheeler who proposed the possibility of such realities was considering microscopic scales, not macroscopic. It is for a reason called 'science-fiction." PaV

PaV at 42, 1) What are the power requirements for interstellar travel? 2) Assuming traveling faster than light is possible - and I believe it is - it would be possible to get to Earth from a nearby star in a short (meaning days) period of time. 3) Traveling faster than light in normal space does not take into account non-trivial friction with hydrogen atoms. Also, an impact from something as small as a grain of sand would be equivalent to an explosion. So, a force field would have to be assumed. 4) NOT everything is online. 5) Yes, the U.S. Air Force contracted with A.V. Roe, a Canadian company, to build a flying saucer aircraft. They were successful and the project was immediately classified. The cover of the relevant document reads: Weapons System 606A (Supersonic Application) February 1958 Avro Aircraft Limited 6) It was discovered that the circular saucer shape deflected radar. This aircraft was a high-speed, high-altitude reconnaissance platform. Engineers tried everything they could think of to reduce the Radar Cross-Section (RCS) of the U-2 but failed. For a while, the Russians could track it but could not shoot it down. 7) The Russians also had this technology but much earlier. relatd

As to UFO's: (1) Did you know that the US Air Force built "flying saucers" in the 50's. They were basically horizontally-oriented jet engines, open on top and that required those Air Force troops on top of the flying saucer to wear masks for higher-altitude flying. Those masks look quite like what ET's are supposed to look like. There are photos of all of this online, if you look. (2) A few years back, there was video shown of something that happened right off of San Diego, a large naval base. The flight of the objects was unusual, but very simple. In my estimation, they were too simple. Just the other day it was reported that the cause of those images had been discovered: Chinese drones. (3) More recently, we've seen images of some kind of aircraft going at exceptionally high speeds and that plunge directly into the ocean (where, of course, the ETs live!). Well, now we're talking about hypersonic missiles traveling at multiples of the speed of sound. And, if you were going to test these missiles, naturally you would have them dispose themselves in the ocean. (4) Six months, or so, ago, there was an image released of some very strange objects appearing in the night sky with strange green lighting and odd triangular shapes. A few weeks later, I read about a new type of craft being built for the Air Force that had triangular shaped wings and, IIRC, has the ability to hover in the air. Conclusion: the reason that our government is now "revealing" all this video footage and promoting the idea of UFOs is because they are in the process of testing aircraft with exceptionable maneuverability and capabilities and they don't want us to know about it. We're being had!! I know a pilot who flew for a major airline going into major hubs in Europe. He never saw any UFO's flying commercial. However, he did fly--and I'm supposing, secretly for the military and he saw UFO's near those military installations. Color me very skeptical. Logically, if you can't travel faster than the speed of light, then how in the world can you travel here? A round trip to the nearest galaxy is 25,000 light years. So, talk about there must be life out there somewhere in those billions of galaxies is meaningless. The only possibility for us encountering life is within our own galaxy. That reduces the odds doesn't it? PaV

JHolo/34:

Regardless of the topic, almost every thread devolves into discussions about abortion, homosexuality and transgendered.

First of all, this is complete rubbish. Second of all, I've never seen you post here before. So how would you have any idea whatsoever as to where threads end up? PaV

JHolo/25: Well, it got rid of a narcissist who wanted to shoot peaceful protesters. Yes. Most successful leaders have narcissistic tendencies. I've seen this first-hand. And what do we have now? Someone suffering from dementia who has threatened citizens who oppose government policy with nuclear bombs. I never though I would live to see the day that a U.S. President would make such a comment. But Biden did. PaV

KRock at 37, BSRA was nothing. Project Magnet was never well documented. What is well documented is the flying saucer aircraft development work conducted by John Frost at the A.V. Roe company in Canada. Steven Greer is a quack, not a Ufologist. The "Disclosure Project" disclosed nothing. Throwing NASA into the mix adds more nothing. Blavatsky? Yeah, let's throw her nonsense books out there. relatd

ET at 35, No way. They are not going to announce anything except more announcements. relatd

@JHolo #19 For the record, I never said I subscribed to a belief in "nuts and bolts" UFOs. I do believe, though, that the phenomenon is real—real in the sense that people do experience what they perceive to be UFOs and abductions by aliens; I just happen to think the phenomenon has more to do with some level of consciousness than it does with extraterrestrial visitors from other planets. What most people don't realize is that inquires into the UFO phenomenon have long been associated with western esoteric practices and teachings. During the 1940s, for example, there were certain research groups (e.g., Borderland Sciences Research Association) who openly investigated the phenomenon by means of spirit channeling. Similarly, Wilbert Smith, who directed Canada's Project Magnet (a top secret UFO study program), was heavily influenced by the so-called psychic abilities of Francis Swan; she claimed to be able to contact alien beings through the practice of automatic writing, and is reported to have even conjured up a UFO while being interviewed by Naval investigators. Still today, some ufologists, such as Steven Greer, openly admit to relying on eastern transcendental meditation (i.e., mantra) techniques in order to obtain a higher state of consciousness, and too summon UFOs (see Greer's CE5 project). Coincidently, Helena Blavatsky—the 19th century occultist—also drew extensively from very similar practices, which were fundamental to her esoteric teachings. KRock

JH, many threads get dragged off topic into side tracks, through the actions of the obsessed. KF kairosfocus

Back to the topic- Given an Intelligently Designed universe, it is a given that we are not alone. And UFO sightings go back for centuries. Biblical scholars even say they are discussed in the Bible. I'm pretty sure NASA and the military already know that they exist. The time may be coming that they are going to announce their arrival, officially. ET

Relatd: I am getting real tired of seeing a topic getting buried under purely off topic election and politics trash. And not just here.

Then you are definitely on the wrong site. Regardless of the topic, almost every thread devolves into discussions about abortion, homosexuality and transgendered. JHolo

I am getting real tired of seeing a topic getting buried under purely off topic election and politics trash. And not just here. relatd

Relatd: You know it’s wrong to accuse everybody? Especially people you’ve never met in real life?

I can only go with what I read here. So far, there aren’t many exceptions to my statement. Although I am sure there are some. And I apologize to those. JHolo

SA at 26, To any moderator reading, please delete. relatd

ET at 24, I hope a moderator catches that stupid off topic comment. relatd

JH at 23, Stop the useless and off topic political nonsense please. relatd

JH at 19, You know it's wrong to accuse everybody? Especially people you've never met in real life? relatd

JHolo:

Well, it got rid of a narcissist who wanted to shoot peaceful protesters.

All Presidents are narcissists. And the riots were anything but peaceful. I especially loved the parts that saw minority owned businesses getting destroyed by those "peaceful" BLM protestors. For months this went on. And the weak, local democratic "leadership" allowed it. ET

Regarding election fraud, along with 2000 Mules, this movie looks interesting (trailer) - opens in July. https://selectioncode.com/ Silver Asiatic

ET: And look where that self-inflicted fraud has gotten us.

Well, it got rid of a narcissist who wanted to shoot peaceful protesters. JHolo

Yes, JHolo. And THAT is the problem. That epitomizes the stupidity inherent in the last Presidential election. To me the "anyone but Trump" mantra is pure fraud. And look where that self-inflicted fraud has gotten us. ET

ET: I would rather believe in election fraud than to think that over 81 million people stupidly voted for Biden.

I suspect that not an insignificant number were votes against Trump rather than votes specifically endorsing Biden. JHolo

JHolo is proud to be clueless. ID is not anti-evolution. The only evidence for evolution by means of blind and mindless processes are genetic diseases and deformities. If humans are causing climate issues it is with our sheer numbers, along with urban heat islands and our ability to alter ecosystems. It has NOTHING to do with CO2. I would rather believe in election fraud than to think that over 81 million people stupidly voted for Biden. It is disheartening to know there are that many idiots in the USA. And ID offers the only scientific explanation form our existence. Without ID all you have to try to explain our existence is sheer dumb luck. And that is the antithesis of science. ET

JH, empty speculation that shows you have never -- despite opportunities -- cogently addressed the search challenge imposed by configuration spaces at or beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity and the linked islands of function imposed by requisites of function based on correct arrangement, coupling and interaction of many well matched parts. Consider a tray of 1,000 coins [2-sided dice], containing a valid English text message of 143 ASCII characters or thereabouts. The config space is 1.07*10^301. The 10*80 atoms of our observed cosmos, acting as observers with such trays, tossed and inspected every 10^-14 s for 10^17 s, would sample 10 ^(80+14+17) possibilities, 10^111. That is 1 in 10^290 of the space, effectively no search of consequence. 10^80 atoms of course takes in all your billions of proposed circumstellar, terrestrial zone, life habitable planets in spiral galaxies with life friendly rings and high metallicity stars. Life is vastly more complex than a 1,000 bit string so the notion of a Darwin pond etc spontaneously forming c-chem aqueous medium cell based life on that gamut is radically ill conceived, just on search challenge. Not to mention the required Drexler assembler. KF PS, if you are trying to imply that no one could get here to create the molecular nanotech lab or that panspermia is impossible, that first restricts us to 10^57 atoms and about the same time, 12 BY. That brings you to the 500 bit end of the threshold. More to the point, we have not exhausted physics so even that cannot be ruled out. However if we were to take for argument, OoL would have a very plausible extracosmic class of candidates which would leave open life on many worlds. kairosfocus

Given the size of the universe, and the billions of planets, I think that it is highly likely that there is life elsewhere, and even probable that there is intelligent life. But that is a long cry from them being able to visit us. The universal speed limit makes that very unlikely. JHolo

I find it strange that the same people who don’t believe in evolution and anthropogenic global warming, in spite of overwhelming evidence from multiple fields of research, believe in UFOs, ID, election fraud and pizza-gate. JHolo

@Relatd #14 Evidently, neither do you lol. KRock

Air Intelligence Digest February 1956 Volume 9 Number 2 Published by the Directorate of Intelligence UNITED STATES AIR FORCE SECRET TECHNICAL BRIEFS VTOL AIRCRAFT. Here are two views of René Couzinet’s original design of a circular planform, vertical take-off-and-landing aircraft. It is claimed that his improved version has undergone preliminary wind tunnel tests. [CONFIDENTIAL]? Couzinet has improved his flying saucer René Couzinet of France reportedly has improved his original design of a circular planform, vertical take-off-and-landing aircraft. The reported specifications for the improved version are: Span: 44.6 feet Lifting surface area: 645.6 square feet Six Lycoming engines (180 hp each): 1,080 hp One turbojet (Marcel Dassault Viper): 1,639 pounds thrust Empty weight: 9,900 pounds Useful load: 19,800 pounds Total weight: 27,700 pounds According to the report, the modified version incorporates a principle of operation similar to that used in Couzinet’s original proposal, that is, two contra-rotating discs superimposed to annul gyroscopic effect. The discs are supported by a fixed central section in which the cockpit, the engines, and landing gear are located. There are now 50 adjustable vanes around the periphery of each disc instead of the 48 in the earlier proposal. It is claimed that this improved version has already undergone preliminary wind tunnel tests, and is expected to be flown in April. [CONFIDENTIAL] End relatd

Fasteddious at 15, You're saying nothing new. Others have seen the same things as you going back decades, They are of no concern. What is of concern are solid metallic objects sighted at close range by trained observers. But the USAF, and others, have ignored that for decades. And will continue to ignore it. See my next post if you think manmade, circular aircraft are impossible. relatd

Relatd @ 13: Sorry, but I have seen such "evidence" published much later than the 1950's: - I have read about repeated reports of UFO's that were actually sightings of Venus - I saw a video of a "UFO" that was clearly (to me) the reflection of a car's rear lights in a window - I myself saw a "UFO" as a pair of lights hovering a few minutes in the distance until it became clear that I was watching the tail end of a jet that had taken off from a not-so-near airport, moving away from me. I have seen videos claiming to be UFO's that looked very similar to that. And yes, some UFO sighting reports are more credible than others; nothing new there. Otherwise, I think we largely agree (e.g. regarding aliens), although one would not know that from reading your response. Fasteddious

KRock at 11, You've got nothing. relatd

Fasteddious at 12, You are repeating tired, old non-theories from the 1950s. 1) USAF pilots have seen large, metallic, circular aircraft at close range. They were never told that these aircraft were manmade since they carried no markings. In the 1950s, fighter jets were routinely scrambled because the United States was under threat of attack from Russian bombers. By the way, those "Russian" bombers were near copies of American B-29s that were given to Russia during the war (four in total). Aside from some armament changes, U.S. fighter pilots would essentially be shooting at B-29s. The Russian version was called the Tu-4. 2) The alien idea has no basis in fact. It just became the most published (fictional) story. relatd

One wonders whether NASA has more money than it needs for its usual projects? I wonder whether they will look into ball lightning as part of this study? Most UFO sightings can probably be accounted for naturally, such as the planet Venus, birds (or planes) reflecting the setting sun, other unrecognized reflections, the exhaust of remote jet airplanes, etc. Doing so after the sighting is, of course, largely impossible, so the sightings just accumulate as mysteries. Even so, there are some that have been studied closely and appear to defy explanation with what we know at present. While it is hard to take seriously that many of these are alien presences, that explanation cannot be ruled out, a priori. Fasteddious

@Relatd #10 Jacque Vallee is a charlatan? That's quite the claim. Where's your proof? Show me the evidence that supports your claim? And I'm not interested in your personal opinion—I want factual evidence. I don't doubt that some UFOs are manmade craft. However, this just isn't the case for all sightings and reports. To think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant. You're quote mining. The letter in question also states that the reported phenomenon is real and not fictitious; and that while some of the sightings could be natural in origin (the key word here being some), a further detailed study into the phenomenon is highly recommended. Moreover, the part of the letter you decided to focus on provides no evidence that the objects are manmade; the letter only suggests that the creation of these objects through acquired U.S. knowledge might be possible, provided an extensive development programme be put into place. Additionally, the paragraph only mentions range of speed as being within the potential capabilities of U.S, engineering, not the maneuverability of these so-called objects, such as their extreme rates of climb, etc. You're grasping for straws. KRock

Jacques Vallee is a charlatan who writes well. My choice #2 was: UFOs are made on earth. I was unable to correct that entry. Yes, UFOs are manmade. Get the book, Flying Saucer Aircraft by Bill Rose for much of the story. In a letter sent by Air Materiel Command to the commanding officer of the USAAF, the following entry appears: "f. It is possible within the present U.S. knowledge—provided extensive detailed development is undertaken—to construct a piloted aircraft which has the general description of the object in subparagraph (e) above which would be capable of an approximate range of 7000 miles at subsonic speeds." This was in response for a request for more information on flying discs as they were called at the time. Where did this "U.S. knowledge" come from? From engineers at Wright Field and interrogation reports. That letter was dated September 23, 1947. relatd

@ Relatd #8 What difference does it make whether or not people know who J. Allen Hynek is? His popularity has absolutely no bearing on whether or not his claims are legitimate. That's pure nonsense! Jacque Vallee has been studying and researching the UFO phenomenon since the 1960s, and, along the way, has worked with numerous other researchers within the field of Ufology, including J. Allen Hynek. He's considered to be one of the most respected researchers in this particular area of study. To suggest he's nothing short of a story teller speaks volumes of just how little you know (or understand) of the subject. It's quite sad that you'd resort to an ad hominem. Your idea that people today have two choices is an enigma. In other words, I have absolutely no clue what your point is. In your first choice, you seem to indicate that we should trust the government because they won't tell us the truth. And your second choice isn't really a choice at all, it's an assertion that you have a lot of books on the subject of UFOs and that the vast majority of them (according to you) are not very revealing. They knew they were manmade in the 1940s?. Like they do today, I suppose?! Weird, considering that one of the hypotheses in the US government's recently released report is "Other," a polite way of saying "not from this world." This is an odd hypothesis to include in a report if they (i.e., the US government) already know UFOs are manmade. So! In 1975 J. Allen Hynek co-authored a book with Jacque Vallee called, "The Edge of Reality: A Progress Report on Unidentified Flying Objects," where he laid out a very reasonable case for why the UFO phenomenon is real, and what the likely nature of it is. Swamp gas, unfortunately, doesn't account for the most UFO sightings. Nice try though. KRock

No one knows who J. Allen Hynek was or what he did. And by no one, I mean the majority of the population of the U.S. Jacques Vallee was a storyteller - nothing more. He added nothing but fiction by creating his Grand Unified Field of Strange Phenomena fiction. I work with professional storytellers. His books would never pass muster as serious studies. About Wright Field, my point is: They knew what was going on. If that is too vague for you, the UFOs from 1947 were and still are, manmade. People today have two choices: 1) Trust the government to give them an answer that they can demonstrate as true. This means confirming all UFO sightings are from space, other dimensions or domestic production. But they will not do that. 2) I have two hundred books about UFOs and related magazines. Most do little to nothing to explain anything. A few are informative. A last word about J Allen Hynejk. It's 1966 and UFOs were spotted in Michigan. U.S. Air Force Consultant, J Allen Hynek, stated that what was being seen was "swamp gas." Does anyone know what swamp gas is? Swamp gas is trapped gas generated by rotting vegetable matter in swamps. Under certain conditions, it can ignite, producing a very brief, very low altitude flame. An explanation? No. relatd

@Relatd #6 Spiritual—if you bothered to read my post—was merely one example. And, if you knew anything about the subject of UFOs you'd know that some of the leading experts in the field of Ufology, such as Jacque Vallee and the late J. Allen Hynek, have all come to the same conclusion regarding the phenomenon; that is, UFOs are most likely inter-dimensional in nature. It's fiction to think the present phenomenon was known at a particular time?! You're delusional if you think the US government has only come terms with this phenomenon in recent years. I never said there'd be an explanation forthcoming. Moreover, we don't need the US government to offer a plausible explanation; there's plenty of well-versed researchers (I named two above) in the field of Ufology who have already done so. "Early UFO reports were sent to Wright Field in Ohio. Why? They knew what was going on." Your point is? KRock

KRock at 5, Spiritual? Well, we can add that to humans from the future, weather balloons, hallucinations and various and sundry non-explanations. It is fiction to think the present phenomenon was "known" by the general public at a particular time. Good references and document sources exist. I can guarantee that no plausible, or actual, explanation will be forthcoming. Early UFO reports were sent to Wright Field in Ohio. Why? They knew what was going on. relatd

I find it mystifying that NASA, and the United States government in general, are only now claiming to be taking the subject of UFOs seriously. Give me a break, they've known about the phenomenon since at least the mid 1940s, and perhaps even earlier. On a side note: I don't believe the phenomenon itself, which is almost certainly real, stems from other galaxies or star systems; it is likely inter-dimensional (e.g., spiritual) in nature. KRock

1947 - Air Materiel Command at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. 'We should look into this.' 1950s - Various groups like the USAF, CIA and FBI are getting reports. 'We should look into this.' 1966 - The University of Colorado gets a contract from the USAF to look into this and they find nothing 'of scientific value.' 1968 - The Condon Report is released. It contains nothing of scientific value 1970s - Nothing. 1980s - More nothing. 2022 - We should look into this. Or, more baloney. relatd

"The announcement comes as the field of UFO study, once a poorly-regarded research backwater, is gaining more mainstream traction." So its a political move. Yawn. Andrew asauber

This is a flip from their approach in the '50s and '60s. Back then, real people were seeing (by eye and by radar) a lot of odd things that didn't admit easy explanations, and government insisted nothing was there. Now very few real people are seeing UFOs, and the government wants to convince us that something is there. polistra

They already know. It's just a matter of when they will allow NASA to let us know, too. ET