Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 69: A way to understand Functionally Specific Complex Organisation and/or associated Information [FSCO/I] i/l/o Kolmogorov-Chaitin Complexity

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

It seems that it is exceedingly hard for some to understand what FSCO/I is about. In responding to an objector, I wrote as follows just now, and think it is worth headlining for reference:

Where, K-Complexity is summarised by Wikipedia, as a first level point of reference that would have been immediately accessible all along:

<<In algorithmic information theory (a subfield of computer science and mathematics), the Kolmogorov complexity of an object, such as a piece of text, is the length of a shortest computer program (in a predetermined programming language) that produces the object as output. It is a measure of the computational resources needed to specify the object, and is also known as algorithmic complexity, Solomonoff–Kolmogorov–Chaitin complexity, program-size complexity, descriptive complexity, or algorithmic entropy. It is named after Andrey Kolmogorov, who first published on the subject in 1963 [1][2] and is a generalization of classical information theory.

The notion of Kolmogorov complexity can be used to state and prove impossibility results akin to Cantor’s diagonal argument, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, and Turing’s halting problem. In particular, no program P computing a lower bound for each text’s Kolmogorov complexity can return a value essentially larger than P’s own length (see section § Chaitin’s incompleteness theorem); hence no single program can compute the exact Kolmogorov complexity for infinitely many texts.>>

From this, it is but a short step to imagine a universal constructor device which, fed a compact description in a suitable language, will construct and present the [obviously, finite] object. Let us call this the universal 3-D printer/constructor, 3-DP/C.

Thus, in principle, reduction of an organised entity to a description in a suitably compact language is formally equivalent in information terms to the object, once 3-DP/C is present as a conceptual entity. So, WLOG, reduction to compact description in a compact language d(E) is readily seen as identifying the information content of any given entity E.

For, d(E) is a program though it can simply be a functional organisational specification, as, causally in this logic-model world:

d(E) + 3-DP/C + n ==> E1, E2, . . . En.

Obviously, n is an auxiliary instruction setting the number of copies to be made.

I write ==> to imply a constructive causal process effected by a 3-DP/C.

From this we may come back to Orgel and notice his [1973] summary:

These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.

We thus have a formal framework to reduce any entity to a description d(E), which is informational and has as metric

I = length[d(E)],

where a chain of Y/N q[s will yield I in bits, on the Kolmogorov assumption of compactness. I use compact, to imply that we can get a good enough estimator of I by using something compact. We do not have to actually build a most compact language.

Then, inject random changes in d(E) and observable sensitivity to perturbation would be an index of functional specificity of organisation. As a simple case try text strings in English as d(E) and a noisy, lossy transmission medium, giving d*(E). 3-DP/C can put out text strings on d*(E) but soon enough function will vanish as d(E) becomes gibberish.

d(E) –> lossy, noisy medium –> d*(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E*1

d*(E) –> LNM –> d**(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E**1

etc.

After a few generations, gibberish predictably will destroy configuration based functional organisation, starting with text in English.

And so forth.

I trust this will help you understand what FSCO/I is about more clearly.

Overnight, illustrating:

Now of course, 3-DP/C does not exist, though we could argue that the state of the art of technology can be seen as an early, primitive partial case. Venter et al are obviously doing engineering with life forms for example. And of course typing on a keyboard and outputting to a screen or paper are very low level examples.

Technology is not the issue, a formal representation to capture information content of a functionally organised entity is.

Conceive of say a 3-DP/C putting out worlds specified by various cosmological models. We soon enough see the point of cosmological fine tuning, e.g. see Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

Similarly, contemplate the FSCO/I in an ABU 6500CT reel, using d(E) to output:

Then, let us contemplate as a related case, the von Neumann Kinematic Self Replicator:

A von Neumann kinematic self-replicator

With these in mind, now consider the configuration space, needle in haystack search challenge:

Thence, see the significance of active information:

It is thus clear that FSCO/I is a real world concept and the design inference import it carries is real, non trivial, not incoherent, and significant. END

PS, as a frequent objector is again demanding measured values of FSCO/I on pretence that it is incoherent and un-measurable, here is a longstanding illustration put up at UD many years ago, with three specific values building on information metrics in the literature:

Comments
AF, instantly, results are results, and you obviously failed to note that the head of the project is in fact, on the impact of what he learned across his career precisely a design thinker. Now, too, we need not expend needless energy on marginal or disputed cases when we have direct knowledge of coded algorithmic information. But of course for months you have been in self discrediting denial of something so commonplace Wikipedia cannot but acknowledge it, much less leading voices. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
11:43 PM
11
11
43
PM
PDT
Please don’t feed the troll. He will just tell you that he didn’t miss it, but that it’s completely irrelevant and flawed.
Very poor mind-reading, Querius. Of course, I'm aware of the Human Genome Project. I wasn't aware any ID proponents were involved in the production and analysis of data. The equivocation that led to confusion over what constitutes a functional sequence was a storm in a teacup.Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
10:48 PM
10
10
48
PM
PDT
Relatd @54,
You missed the completion of the Human Genome Project?
Please don't feed the troll. He will just tell you that he didn't miss it, but that it's completely irrelevant and flawed. The subsequent interaction will proceed for 250 more messages of the general tone and significance of: Related: No, it isn't. Alan Fox: Yes, it is. Related: No, it isn't. Alan Fox: Yes, it is. Related: No, it isn't. Alan Fox: Yes, it is. It's pointless to argue with someone based solely on assertions and counter-assertions ad nauseam. -QQuerius
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
07:21 PM
7
07
21
PM
PDT
Origenes @53,
Where are the instructions located?
Indeed. While there are a lot of chemical "instructions" that are followed mechanistically, the big challenge is that the organism's "design documents" are missing. These would include design intent, performance specifications, tolerances, safety margins, resilience, quality criteria, yield rates, and many other "design parameters" that are missing from each of the components alone. One can see a dramatic example of what I'm suggestion in considering the biological energy cost in the growth of the leaves of deciduous versus evergreen trees. Evergreen leaves are far more expensive considering the additional components required for their longevity, including waxes and insect repellent chemicals not found in other leaves. -QQuerius
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
07:02 PM
7
07
02
PM
PDT
AF at 50, You missed the completion of the Human Genome Project?relatd
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
Querius @52 Contextual information must play a huge role in an organism. In order to maintain homeostasis, the right proteins must be produced at the right time, in the right amount, and transported to the right places. Where are the instructions located?
Things might be FAR more informationally complex than we realize.
Indeed.Origenes
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PDT
Kairosfocus, Regarding the OP, I thought this might be an interesting place to start:
From this we may come back to Orgel and notice his [1973] summary:
These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
Let's take the concept of 42-ness as information. Some people can imagine (after training) 42 as a conceptual quantity--just as most of us can at least imagine zero-ness, one-ness, two-ness, three-ness, and many-ness. 42 can be symbolized in many ways including: Forty two XLII lllllll lllllll lllllll lllllll lllllll lllllll 101010 2A The conceptual information symbolized by each of the above is identical, but the information in the symbology itself varies, likely has larger or smaller domains (binary versus hex) and may not be readily apparent. Additionally, context also determines the significance of the information. I'm not just thinking of measured versus counted, significant digits, or the difference between 42 cents and 42 million dollars, but more like the least versus the most significant digit in a string such as an RGB color value or 42 feet in the circumference of the earth, for example. Abstraction level is always a factor in information presented as well as precision. So, going back to Orgel, the "minimum number of instructions" also includes all of the contextual issues mentioned above. Things might be FAR more informationally complex than we realize. -QQuerius
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
09:31 AM
9
09
31
AM
PDT
AF, no, Orgel gave a basic framework turning on K complexity. Above, I have drawn out this and have given cases. I also note that FSCO/I is as commonplace as computer files, which of course have basic metrics and obviously exist as instances, shattering claims about incoherence. Use a compact description language say a compression of a DWG or the like, and we can readily see how K-Complexity works. The formalism of a 3-DP/C helps us see how information content corresponds to entity. Durston et al and others have worked to deal with redundancy of file size. However with say a first cell of 1 million bases, if 10% are functional and we move to information content 1 bit each we are well beyond threshold. Enough has been on the table for 50 years for a reasonable person. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
09:05 AM
9
09
05
AM
PDT
Any reasonable person would have acknowledged that from 1973 on an adequate basic framework has been on the table.
Orgel's "specified complexity" is a qualitative description, not a measurable property.Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
I am also sure Dr Puccio has gone over the use of empirical data from the world of life at length, of course predictably to no avail.
I don't recall Giuseppe Puccio succeeding in showing how to calculate "FSCO etc", though he may have had a go with "CSI". There is a bit of an issue whether your "FSCO etc" is the same as "CSI" is the same as Durston's "FSC"Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
08:33 AM
8
08
33
AM
PDT
AF, your memory is inaccurate,. I notice you have skipped over three specific values based on published functional bit values.
What are you referring to?Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
AF, your memory is inaccurate,. I notice you have skipped over three specific values based on published functional bit values. I am also sure Dr Puccio has gone over the use of empirical data from the world of life at length, of course predictably to no avail. Any reasonable person would have acknowledged that from 1973 on an adequate basic framework has been on the table. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
08:11 AM
8
08
11
AM
PDT
The conclusion from Durston & Chiu FSC can be measured by extending Shannon uncertainty to include the joint variables of data and function. This measure can provide an estimate of the variability and hence the size of the functional sequence space for a specific functional protein. It also can measure change in a sequence due to mutation relative to the required functionality. The information calculated from an observed sequence ensemble constrained by the specified functionality then reflects the underlying sub-molecular information structure that could be used to reconstruct the structural or functional properties of the molecule. FSC thus provides a foundational measure that can form the basis for more detailed analysis. Seems to admit that putative calculations depend on assuming probabilities that are only guesses. I don't think this is KF's pot of gold.Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
07:42 AM
7
07
42
AM
PDT
Interesting that you offer Kirk Durston's efforts to develop an idea he calls "functional sequence complexity" which he claims is a property of the biopolymers: DNA, RNA, and proteins. From here In the case of proteins, the measure of FSC provides an estimate for the target size of a protein family in the amino acid sequence space, revealing that functional sequences occupy an extremely small fraction of sequence space. Well, that looks dodgy in itself. How rare functional proteins are in sequence space is unknown, so any probability measures will be guesses. However, I'll work through the paper and see what I find.Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
AF, in between phone calls, I dug up an illustration from 2014 and have appended to OP.
Where? Does it begin at "PS, as a frequent objector is again demanding measured values of FSCO/I..."?
Of course, predictably, you will continue to deny that file size measures are an index of FSCO/I...
Computer file size measures are an indication of the size of computer files. Are you saying that a description of a thing can be converted to a computer file and the size of the file establishes the "FSC etc" of the thing?
...and that the values published for proteins and given since 2014, count. Nine years of denial, indeed going back to the Mathgrrl sock puppet, more like twelve as this issue was hammered out thoroughly at that time. KF
My recollection is that Mathgrrl (Patrick May) was banned here and the calculation of "complex specified information" (CSI) was never done for any real object or process.Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
PPS, as for nebulous and undefined, even if previous discussions were discounted, the above is quite definite and for that matter there was a definition on the table in Orgel, 1973 that should have satisfied any reasonable party. For record of reference:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
But, the rhetorical, selectively hyperskeptical dance goes on and on and on . . . At this point we have an epistemic right to do a confession by projection type analysis. Namely, the concept and readily recognisable information measure FSCO/I is so telling that it must be frustrated, distorted, misrepresented, obfuscated, denied and dismissed at any cost. A back handed admission of its decisive nature. In this case, we must put it alongside AF's stunt of pretending superior biochemistry knowledge so that he set out to similarly deny the reality of coded algorithmic information in the cell. I again point to Lehninger and heirs:
"The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function." [Principles of Biochemistry, 8th Edn, 2021, pp 194 – 5. Now authored by Nelson, Cox et al, Lehninger having passed on in 1986. Attempts to rhetorically pretend on claimed superior knowledge of Biochemistry, that D/RNA does not contain coded information expressing algorithms using string data structures, collapse. We now have to address the implications of language, goal directed stepwise processes and underlying sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech in the heart of cellular metabolism and replication.]
See https://uncommondescent.com/darwinist-debaterhetorical-tactics/protein-synthesis-what-frequent-objector-af-cannot-acknowledge/ The sad rhetorical pattern is all too clear.kairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
07:08 AM
7
07
08
AM
PDT
PS, Durston et al, 2007: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18062814/ also see https://p2c.com/sites/default/files/documents/blogs/kirk/functional-complexity-press.pdfkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
AF, in between phone calls, I dug up an illustration from 2014 and have appended to OP. Of course, predictably, you will continue to deny that file size measures are an index of FSCO/I, and that the values published for proteins and given since 2014, count. Nine years of denial, indeed going back to the Mathgrrl sock puppet, more like twelve as this issue was hammered out thoroughly at that time. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:39 AM
6
06
39
AM
PDT
Can anyone help find one of KF's repeated "FSC etc" calculations that I somehow have missed.Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PDT
AF, repeatedly done and repeatedly ignored. Including by you. KF
I don't recall any example, let alone repeated ones. If such is the case, how hard can it be for you to link to one such example?Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:34 AM
6
06
34
AM
PDT
AF, repeatedly done and repeatedly ignored. Including by you. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:30 AM
6
06
30
AM
PDT
CR, no, the clock at best would be part of an arrangement to tell time, but which would be well below 500 bits. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT
...there have been any number of cases...
One will be enough. If it is already done, then, surely, it can be the work of moments to copy and paste that example.
We now have to recognise that this is denial. KF
Yes you seem to be in denial. Where are these calculations of "FSC etc"?Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:26 AM
6
06
26
AM
PDT
AF, false, there have been any number of cases but you and others have refused to accept the simple fact. We now have to recognise that this is denial. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:21 AM
6
06
21
AM
PDT
KF CR seems to be arguing that the concept of complex specified functional organization/information is superfluous...
As well as undefined, nebulous, incalculable...Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
There is no excuse for the line of objections that have tried to make it out that FSC thence FSCI and even FSCO/I are incoherent, meaningless and/or unquantifiable.
The fact that nobody has shown such a calculation is enough for me. Come on KF, rise to the challenge. Show us how you calculate the "FSC etc" of something.Alan Fox
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:07 AM
6
06
07
AM
PDT
O, CR is pushing an inadequate concept. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PDT
KF CR seems to be arguing that the concept of complex specified functional organization/information is superfluous and can be replaced by the term "well-adapted." Not sure why he believes that this makes sense, or where he is going with this. His proposal seems to be mere unjustifiable conjecture.Origenes
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
05:35 AM
5
05
35
AM
PDT
Cr, of course, we may refine some rocks and construct a clock, as has been done for 1,000 years.
You can use a stone brick to tell time as a sundial. That knowledge is in us, not the brick. Such clocks do embed in their functional organisation complex, functional information that can be reduced to a compact description d(E) then fed to a 3D-P/C, which would then produce a functional watch of the same type. In this case, the stone is well adapted for the purpose of telling time. T
Worse, if said watch is found to be replicating itself, as Paley pointed out, such requires additional FSCO/I.
The genes of a bacterium is well adapted for the purpose of being a recipe for reproducing bacterium. IOW, the two circles of the Venn diagram I keep asking for still overlap.critical rationalist
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
05:31 AM
5
05
31
AM
PDT
AF, if you pause a moment and look at the OP you will precisely see a formalisation of longstanding ideas and discussions on how to measure functional sequence complexity. Take the algebra or the illustration, both make the same point, building on Orgel, 1973 who used Kolmogorov. That is, from the very first moment when specified complexity was raised by an eminent OoL researcher, fifty years ago, how it is measurable was identified. There is no excuse for the line of objections that have tried to make it out that FSC thence FSCI and even FSCO/I are incoherent, meaningless and/or unquantifiable. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2023
March
03
Mar
30
30
2023
05:26 AM
5
05
26
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply