Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 71: The island of function, fitness peak trap

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We have been using a 3-D printer-constructor formalism, and now we can use it to see how hill climbing leads to local trapping.

Again, the core formalism:

Now, let us modify by allowing some sort of local random mutation to d(E) case by case within an n-run, now seen as a generation, so E1 to En are all incrementally different, and in effect are a ring around E in a fitness landscape. From this, we can see a survival filter that on average selects for superior performance. This leads, naturally to hill-climbing, perhaps even to several related peaks in a chain on an island of function. But now, we see:

Algorithmic hill-climbing first requires a hill . . .

Here, we see that hill climbing leads to peak trapping, as at A B or C, any change trend is downhill. Ruggedness of a fitness landscape counts, and not for the notion that hill climbing explains evolutionary advance.

No, it gets more complicated, once we realise that complex, information rich functionally specific organisation is a fine tuning phenomenon. That is, we now have the challenge of island hopping across seas of non function:

So, absent injection of active information . . . contrivance . . . there is a “natural, blind, needle in haystack search”challenge to create novel body plans. Where, if “natural selection” is acceptable, plainly so is “natural . . . search.”

This of course feeds back to getting TO the beaches of an island of function. So, we have the natural search problem in focus, once FSCO/I and fine tuned organisation are recognised.

For this, there has been much distraction and dismissiveness over the years [often, pretending hyperskeptically that FSCO/I is ill conceived], but no cogent answer, nor is there any good reason to believe in a vast continent of incrementally accessible functional forms from a last universal unicellular common ancestral form, traversing the tree of life believed to be ancestrally formed. Indeed, this brings to the surface the systematic pattern of gaps, sudden appearances and disappearances that are the trade secret of paleontology.

So, local trapping and need to arrive at shorelines of function by blind “natural . . . search” are significant challenges. Where, intentional injection of active information by intelligently directed configuration, absent ideological imposition, is a very good explanation for, say, the subtleties of a Dragonfly’s wing, including up to 25% speed improvement from flutter-reducing stigma on the leading edge of the wing . . . as obvious a case of subtle fine tuning as one may wish for:

And, so forth. END

Comments
Asauber/204
They should repudiate the racism within Darwin’s theory and the repudiate the entire theory because it’s a fraud.
I thought Darwin's personal racist/misogynistic views and any implied racism in Descent - such as they are - have been repudiated. No, the theory is imperfect but it's not a fraud.Seversky
April 10, 2023
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JVL goes on
Life forms that create offspring are all connected by paths of viability or function. There are no islands of function because all life is connected.
JVL simply has no scientific proof for any of those claims. Shoot, proteins themselves are now shown to NOT be "connected by paths of viability or function".
Right of Reply: Our Response to Jerry Coyne - September 29, 2019 by Günter Bechly, Brian Miller and David Berlinski Excerpt: David Gelernter observed that amino acid sequences that correspond to functional proteins are remarkably rare among the “space” of all possible combinations of amino acid sequences of a given length. Protein scientists call this set of all possible amino acid sequences or combinations “amino acid sequence space” or “combinatorial sequence space.” Gelernter made reference to this concept in his review of Meyer and Berlinski’s books. He also referenced the careful experimental work by Douglas Axe who used a technique known as site-directed mutagenesis to assess the rarity of protein folds in sequence space while he was working at Cambridge University from 1990-2003. Axe showed that the ratio of sequences in sequence space that will produce protein folds to sequences that won’t is prohibitively and vanishingly small. Indeed, in an authoritative paper published in the Journal of Molecular Biology Axe estimated that ratio at 1 in 10^74. From that information about the rarity of protein folds in sequence space, Gelernter—like Axe, Meyer and Berlinski—has drawn the rational conclusion: finding a novel protein fold by a random search is implausible in the extreme. Not so, Coyne argued. Proteins do not evolve from random sequences. They evolve by means of gene duplication. By starting from an established protein structure, protein evolution had a head start. This is not an irrational position, but it is anachronistic. Indeed, Harvard mathematical biologist Martin Nowak has shown that random searches in sequence space that start from known functional sequences are no more likely to enter regions in sequence space with new protein folds than searches that start from random sequences. The reason for this is clear: random searches are overwhelmingly more likely to go off into a non-folding, non-functional abyss than they are to find a novel protein fold. Why? Because such novel folds are so extraordinarily rare in sequence space. Moreover, as Meyer explained in Darwin’s Doubt, as mutations accumulate in functional sequences, they will inevitably destroy function long before they stumble across a new protein fold. Again, this follows from the extreme rarity (as well as the isolation) of protein folds in sequence space. Recent work by Weizmann Institute protein scientist Dan Tawfik has reinforced this conclusion. Tawfik’s work shows that as mutations to functional protein sequences accumulate, the folds of those proteins become progressively more thermodynamically and structurally unstable. Typically, 15 or fewer mutations will completely destroy the stability of known protein folds of average size. Yet, generating (or finding) a new protein fold requires far more amino acid sequence changes than that. Finally, calculations based on Tawfik’s work confirm and extend the applicability of Axe’s original measure of the rarity of protein folds. These calculations confirm that the measure of rarity that Axe determined for the protein he studied is actually representative of the rarity for large classes of other globular proteins. Not surprisingly, Dan Tawfik has described the origination of a truly novel protein or fold as “something like close to a miracle.” Tawfik is on Coyne’s side: He is mainstream. https://quillette.com/2019/09/29/right-of-reply-our-response-to-jerry-coyne/ "Enzyme Families -- Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design?" - Ann Gauger - December 4, 2014 Excerpt: If enzymes can't be recruited to genuinely new functions by unguided means, no matter how similar they are, the evolutionary story is false.,,, Taken together, since we found no enzyme that was within one mutation of cooption, the total number of mutations needed is at least four: one for duplication, one for over-production, and two or more single base changes. The waiting time required to achieve four mutations is 10^15 years. That's longer than the age of the universe. The real waiting time is likely to be much greater, since the two most likely candidate enzymes failed to be coopted by double mutations. We have now addressed two objections raised by our critics: that we didn't test the right mutation(s), and that we didn't use the right starting point. We tested all possible single base changes in nine different enzymes, Those nine enzymes are the most structurally similar of BioF's entire family We also tested 70 percent of double mutations in the two closest enzymes of those nine. Finally, some have said we should have used the ancestral enzyme as our starting point, because they believe modern enzymes are somehow different from ancient ones. Why do they think that? It's because modern enzymes can't be coopted to anything except trivial changes in function. In other words, they don't evolve! That is precisely the point we are making. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/a_new_paper_fro091701.html
Much less do Darwinists have any scientific evidence that all 'life is connected' in a continuous Darwinian fashion. Both genetics and the fossil record demonstrate a highly discontinuous pattern. As Dr. Cornelius Hunter, (PhD – Biophysics), put the genetic situation, “the dependency graph (intelligent design) model is astronomically superior compared to the (universal) common descent model.”
New Paper by Winston Ewert Demonstrates Superiority of Design Model - Cornelius Hunter - July 20, 2018 Excerpt: Ewert’s three types of data are: (i) sample computer software, (ii) simulated species data generated from evolutionary/common descent computer algorithms, and (iii) actual, real species data. Ewert’s three models are: (i) a null model which entails no relationships between any species, (ii) an evolutionary/common descent model, and (iii) a dependency graph model. Ewert’s results are a Copernican Revolution moment. First, for the sample computer software data, not surprisingly the null model performed poorly. Computer software is highly organized, and there are relationships between different computer programs, and how they draw from foundational software libraries. But comparing the common descent and dependency graph models, the latter performs far better at modeling the software “species.” In other words, the design and development of computer software is far better described and modeled by a dependency graph than by a common descent tree. Second, for the simulated species data generated with a common descent algorithm, it is not surprising that the common descent model was far superior to the dependency graph. That would be true by definition, and serves to validate Ewert’s approach. Common descent is the best model for the data generated by a common descent process. Third, for the actual, real species data, the dependency graph model is astronomically superior compared to the common descent model. Where It Counts Let me repeat that in case the point did not sink in. Where it counted, common descent failed compared to the dependency graph model. The other data types served as useful checks, but for the data that mattered — the actual, real, biological species data — the results were unambiguous. Ewert amassed a total of nine massive genetic databases. In every single one, without exception, the dependency graph model surpassed common descent. Darwin could never have even dreamt of a test on such a massive scale. Darwin also could never have dreamt of the sheer magnitude of the failure of his theory. Because you see, Ewert’s results do not reveal two competitive models with one model edging out the other. We are not talking about a few decimal points difference. For one of the data sets (HomoloGene), the dependency graph model was superior to common descent by a factor of 10,064. The comparison of the two models yielded a preference for the dependency graph model of greater than ten thousand. Ten thousand is a big number. But it gets worse, much worse. Ewert used Bayesian model selection which compares the probability of the data set given the hypothetical models. In other words, given the model (dependency graph or common descent), what is the probability of this particular data set? Bayesian model selection compares the two models by dividing these two conditional probabilities. The so-called Bayes factor is the quotient yielded by this division. The problem is that the common descent model is so incredibly inferior to the dependency graph model that the Bayes factor cannot be typed out. In other words, the probability of the data set, given the dependency graph model, is so much greater than the probability of the data set given the common descent model, that we cannot type the quotient of their division. Instead, Ewert reports the logarithm of the number. Remember logarithms? Remember how 2 really means 100, 3 means 1,000, and so forth? Unbelievably, the 10,064 value is the logarithm (base value of 2) of the quotient! In other words, the probability of the data on the dependency graph model is so much greater than that given the common descent model, we need logarithms even to type it out. If you tried to type out the plain number, you would have to type a 1 followed by more than 3,000 zeros. That’s the ratio of how probable the data are on these two models! By using a base value of 2 in the logarithm we express the Bayes factor in bits. So the conditional probability for the dependency graph model has a 10,064 advantage over that of common descent. 10,064 bits is far, far from the range in which one might actually consider the lesser model. See, for example, the Bayes factor Wikipedia page, which explains that a Bayes factor of 3.3 bits provides “substantial” evidence for a model, 5.0 bits provides “strong” evidence, and 6.6 bits provides “decisive” evidence. This is ridiculous. 6.6 bits is considered to provide “decisive” evidence, and when the dependency graph model case is compared to comment descent case, we get 10,064 bits. But It Gets Worse The problem with all of this is that the Bayes factor of 10,064 bits for the HomoloGene data set is the very best case for common descent. For the other eight data sets, the Bayes factors range from 40,967 to 515,450. In other words, while 6.6 bits would be considered to provide “decisive” evidence for the dependency graph model, the actual, real, biological data provide Bayes factors of 10,064 on up to 515,450. We have known for a long time that common descent has failed hard. In Ewert’s new paper, we now have detailed, quantitative results demonstrating this. And Ewert provides a new model, with a far superior fit to the data. https://evolutionnews.org/2018/07/new-paper-by-winston-ewert-demonstrates-superiority-of-design-model/
And as far as the fossil record in concerned, it gets worse for Darwinists,
Günter Bechly video: Fossil Discontinuities: A Refutation of Darwinism and Confirmation of Intelligent Design – 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7w5QGqcnNs The fossil record is dominated by abrupt appearances of new body plans and new groups of organisms. This conflicts with the gradualistic prediction of Darwinian Evolution. Here 18 explosive origins in the history of life are described, demonstrating that the famous Cambrian Explosion is far from being the exception to the rule. Also the fossil record establishes only very brief windows of time for the origin of complex new features, which creates a ubiquitous waiting time problem for the origin and fixation of the required coordinated mutations. This refutes the viability of the Neo-Darwinian evolutionary process as the single conceivable naturalistic or mechanistic explanation for biological origins, and thus confirms Intelligent Design as the only reasonable alternative.
Needless to say, this type of scientific evidence is NOT what Darwin predicted for the fossil record. Thus in conclusion, JVL may be satisfied with a theory that "You can be drunk, addled, or stupid and still understand", but for those of us who are not transvestites who had a few Bud-Lites for breakfast, but who are interested in the actual science behind JVL's claims instead, we find that JVL's claims fall completely apart with even minimal scientific scrutiny. To put it mildly, finding Darwin's theory to be, basically, a flimsy 'house of cards' that collapses in on itself with minimal scientific scrutiny is NOT good for a supposedly scientific theory that claims to be the be all/end all scientific explanation for all life on earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
bornagain77
April 10, 2023
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JVL's comment at 194 reminds me that "You can be drunk, addled, or stupid and still understand" the basics behind Darwin's theory,
"You might think that a theory so profound would be laden with intimidating mathematical formulas and at least as difficult to master as Newton’s Mechanics or Einstein's Relativity. But such is not the case. Darwinism is the most accessible “scientific” theory ever proposed. It needs no math, no mastery of biology, no depth of understanding on any level. The dullest person can understand the basic story line: “Some mistakes are good. When enough good mistakes accumulate you get a new species. If you let the mistakes run long enough, you get every complicated living thing descending from one simple living thing in the beginning. There is no need for God in this process. In fact there is no need for God at all. So the Bible, which claims that God is important, is wrong. You can be drunk, addled, or stupid and still understand this. And the real beauty of it is that when you first glimpse this revelation with its “aha!” moment, you feel like an Einstein yourself. You feel superior, far superior, to those religious nuts who still believe in God. Without having paid any dues whatsoever, you breathe the same rarified air as the smartest people who have ever lived."? – Laszlo Bencze - 2014
But let's presuppose that most of us are not transvestites who woke up with a few Bud-Lites for breakfast,,,
Kid Rock vs. Bud Lite https://www.youtube.com/shorts/st1VPPGUvpU
,,, But let's instead presuppose that most of us are interested in the actual science behind JVL's claims,,,
JVL: Umm, remember: starting with a viable, functional life form,,
Right off the bat we have a huge scientific problem. Where is the scientific rule that says that Darwinists get to start with the 'miracle' of life as a starting point? i.e. If you can't explain where life came from in the first place, well then, so much for your claim that you are offering an adequate scientific explanation for all the diversity of life on earth. And it is for good reason that Darwinists want to assume the 'miracle' of life as a starting point. Darwinists simply have no realistic scientific clue how life could possibly come about by naturalistic processes.
“There is no such thing as a simple cell. Every cell is is amazingly complex. This has been calculated. I’ve not done the calculation this was done by biophysicists.,, They have figured this out. They give the pieces that are needed to build a simple cell. So it’s about 15 different pieces you would need to build for there to be a simple cellular life. Of those 15 pieces zero, ZERO, have been made by origin of Life researchers. Even in their Laboratories. Even with all their equipment. I’m not talking about under a rock or in some pool by the side of the ocean. I’m talking in the pristine Laboratories building up these molecules and making any of those 15 pieces.,,, You have to have each one of these pieces none of them, ZERO of them, have been made.” – James Tour – Origin of Life: Controversial Chemist Shakes up Scientific Community | Problems with Primordial Soup - 2023 https://youtu.be/ZugOrSD7YL4?t=1393
In fact, it is not just that ZERO of the 15 pieces that were calculated to be necessary for ‘simple’ life have ever been made in pristine laboratories, and as Dr Tour stated elsewhere, even if you were somehow able to make all of the different pieces that are required for life, still no one would have any realistic clue as to how to put all those different pieces together.
(July 2019) “We have no idea how to put this structure (a simple cell) together.,, So, not only do we not know how to make the basic components, we do not know how to build the structure even if we were given the basic components. So the gedanken (thought) experiment is this. Even if I gave you all the components. Even if I gave you all the amino acids. All the protein structures from those amino acids that you wanted. All the lipids in the purity that you wanted. The DNA. The RNA. Even in the sequence you wanted. I’ve even given you the code. And all the nucleic acids. So now I say, “Can you now assemble a cell, not in a prebiotic cesspool but in your nice laboratory?”. And the answer is a resounding NO! And if anybody claims otherwise they do not know this area (of research).” – James Tour: The Origin of Life Has Not Been Explained – 4:20 minute mark (The more we know, the worse the problem gets for materialists) https://youtu.be/r4sP1E1Jd_Y?t=255
JVL goes on,
variation arises.
And here is another huge scientific problem for Darwinists. Darwinists assumed that any variation that arises in a genome was/is by a completely random, unguided, processes. Yet that assumption is now scientifically proven to be false.
"Physiology Is Rocking the Foundations of Evolutionary Biology": Another Peer-Reviewed Paper Takes Aim at Neo-Darwinism - Casey Luskin March 31, 2015 Excerpt: Noble doesn't mince words: "In this article, I will show that all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis (often also called Neo-Darwinism) have been disproved." Noble then recounts those assumptions: (1) that "genetic change is random," (2) that "genetic change is gradual," (3) that "following genetic change, natural selection leads to particular gene variants (alleles) increasing in frequency within the population," and (4) that "inheritance of acquired characteristics is impossible." He then cites examples that refute each of those assumptions,,, He then proposes a new and radical model of biology called the "Integrative Synthesis," where genes don't run the show and all parts of an organism -- the genome, the cell, the body plan, everything -- is integrated. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/physiology_is_r094821.html How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. – 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611
As Jonathan Wells stated, and directly contrary to a core presupposition of Darwinian theory, "I now know as an embryologist,,,Tissues and cells, as they differentiate, modify their DNA to suit their needs. It's the organism controlling the DNA, not the DNA controlling the organism."
Ask an Embryologist: Genomic Mosaicism - Jonathan Wells - February 23, 2015 Excerpt: humans have a "few thousand" different cell types. Here is my simple question: Does the DNA sequence in one cell type differ from the sequence in another cell type in the same person?,,, The simple answer is: We now know that there is considerable variation in DNA sequences among tissues, and even among cells in the same tissue. It's called genomic mosaicism. In the early days of developmental genetics, some people thought that parts of the embryo became different from each other because they acquired different pieces of the DNA from the fertilized egg. That theory was abandoned,,, ,,,(then) "genomic equivalence" -- the idea that all the cells of an organism (with a few exceptions, such as cells of the immune system) contain the same DNA -- became the accepted view. I taught genomic equivalence for many years. A few years ago, however, everything changed. With the development of more sophisticated techniques and the sampling of more tissues and cells, it became clear that genetic mosaicism is common. I now know as an embryologist,,,Tissues and cells, as they differentiate, modify their DNA to suit their needs. It's the organism controlling the DNA, not the DNA controlling the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/02/ask_an_embryolo093851.html
JVL goes on,,
Some of that variation is not viable/non-functional and doesn’t create offspring with the same variation. Some of the variation is viable enough to survive and pass on its characteristics.
JVL is assuming that some non-trivial percentage of random variations/mutations will be beneficial. But it is now known that almost all, in not all, of mutations to DNA are degradative.
When Darwin’s Foundations Are Crumbling, What Will the (Darwinian) Faithful Do? Excerpt: Here’s a summation of the evolutionary picture that has emerged, according to Behe (in his new book "Darwin Devolves": • The large majority of mutations are degradatory, meaning they’re mutations in which the gene is broken or blunted. Genetic information has been lost, not gained. • Sometimes the degradation helps an organism survive. • When the degradation confers a survival advantage, the mutation spreads throughout the population by natural selection. ,,,, Behe sums up his main argument like this: “beneficial degradative mutations will rapidly, relentlessly, unavoidably, outcompete beneficial constructive mutations at every time and population scale.”1 The only Darwinian examples of evolution that have been observed have followed this pattern and resulted in evolutionary dead ends. Darwin devolves.,,,, https://salvomag.com/article/salvo49/darwinism-dissembled Critic ignores reality of Genetic Entropy - Dr John Sanford - 7 March 2013 Excerpt: Where are the beneficial mutations in man? It is very well documented that there are thousands of deleterious Mendelian mutations accumulating in the human gene pool, even though there is strong selection against such mutations. Yet such easily recognized deleterious mutations are just the tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of deleterious mutations will not display any clear phenotype at all. There is a very high rate of visible birth defects, all of which appear deleterious. Again, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Why are no beneficial birth anomalies being seen? This is not just a matter of identifying positive changes. If there are so many beneficial mutations happening in the human population, selection should very effectively amplify them. They should be popping up virtually everywhere. They should be much more common than genetic pathologies. Where are they? European adult lactose tolerance appears to be due to a broken lactase promoter [see Can’t drink milk? You’re ‘normal’! Ed.]. African resistance to malaria is due to a broken hemoglobin protein [see Sickle-cell disease. Also, immunity of an estimated 20% of western Europeans to HIV infection is due to a broken chemokine receptor—see CCR5-delta32: a very beneficial mutation. Ed.] Beneficials happen, but generally they are loss-of-function mutations, and even then they are very rare! http://creation.com/genetic-entropy
The hypothetical 'beneficial' mutations that Darwinists needed to make their hypothesis viable as a scientific theory, and as far as empirical science is concerned, simply don't exist!bornagain77
April 10, 2023
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Relatd/203
Prrrrfffssttt tttt! Oh, yes, the book was meant to be read by apes.
That's right and it is read by apes.Seversky
April 10, 2023
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CD, actually, there is a well known history of Darwinism in Europe that is relevant, amply documented and hotly denied because of its import. As for Las Casas, he was no lone voice, but the point is that effectively unaccountable power is corrupting. A lesson we all need and it is why I point to first duties of natural law per Cicero et al as a point of departure for sound reform; which is yet again desperately needed. Meanwhile the configuration space dynamics that point to fine tuning and islands of function -- as well as to the statistical form of the second law -- are hotly resisted. Revealing. KF PS, Here is H G Wells, who tried to warn at turn of C20, literally in the opening words of War of the Worlds:
No one would have believed in the last years of the nineteenth century that this world was being watched keenly and closely by intelligences greater than man's and yet as mortal as his own; that as men busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a man with a microscope might scrutinise the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water . . . No one gave a thought to the older worlds of space as sources of human danger, or thought of them only to dismiss the idea of life upon them as impossible or improbable. It is curious to recall some of the mental habits of those departed days. At most terrestrial men fancied there might be other men upon Mars, perhaps inferior to themselves and ready to welcome a missionary enterprise. Yet across the gulf of space, minds that are to our minds as ours are to those of the beasts that perish, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against us . . . . looking across space with instruments, and intelligences such as we have scarcely dreamed of, they see, at its nearest distance only 35,000,000 of miles sunward of them, a morning star of hope, our own warmer planet, green with vegetation and grey with water, with a cloudy atmosphere eloquent of fertility, with glimpses through its drifting cloud wisps of broad stretches of populous country and narrow, navy-crowded seas. And we men, the creatures who inhabit this earth, must be to them at least as alien and lowly as are the monkeys and lemurs to us. The intellectual side of man already admits that life is an incessant struggle for existence, and it would seem that this too is the belief of the minds upon Mars. Their world is far gone in its cooling and this world is still crowded with life, but crowded only with what they regard as inferior animals. To carry warfare sunward is, indeed, their only escape from the destruction that, generation after generation, creeps upon them. And before we judge of them too harshly we must remember what ruthless and utter destruction our own species has wrought, not only upon animals, such as the vanished bison and the dodo, but upon its inferior races. The Tasmanians, in spite of their human likeness, were entirely swept out of existence in a war of extermination waged by European immigrants, in the space of fifty years. Are we such apostles of mercy as to complain if the Martians warred in the same spirit?
The moral hazard is real, as the history of Eugenics, euthanasia and worse has shown. The last century made a prophet out of Wells.kairosfocus
April 10, 2023
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"Are you asking them to repudiate the racism within Darwin’s theory or to repudiate the entire theory because it is racist?" PM1, They should repudiate the racism within Darwin's theory and the repudiate the entire theory because it's a fraud. Andrewasauber
April 10, 2023
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CD at 195, 'The term “favored races” in Origins doesn’t mean human races.' Prrrrfffssttt tttt! Oh, yes, the book was meant to be read by apes.relatd
April 10, 2023
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@185
Inquiring minds want to watch the usual ad hominems and evasions as previously demonstrated as there’s no hope that these trolls will ever repudiate the racism in Darwin’s theory.
Are you asking them to repudiate the racism within Darwin's theory or to repudiate the entire theory because it is racist?PyrrhoManiac1
April 10, 2023
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KF/198 Mein Kampf? That's where your brain takes you? Or a lone priest who grows a conscience after reaping the benefits of the Spanish killing, subjugation and enslavement of thousands of Native Americans all with the blessing of the Vatican? One who could never quite articulate an understandable policy re slavery? When you have to resort to extremes to make your point, you've already lost the argument. Or, better, you don't even understand the argument.....chuckdarwin
April 10, 2023
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JVL Umm, remember: starting with a viable, functional life form, variation arises. Some of that variation is not viable/non-functional and doesn’t create offspring with the same variation. Some of the variation is viable enough to survive and pass on its characteristics.
Who said that atheists don't believe in magic*?
But, if anyone thinks there are islands of function then please provide a specific example. So far no one has been able to do so but I live in hope.
:)Funny! You mentioned the very definition of island of function(bolded in your first quoted message) . Definition of an atheist: believing in magic* but thinking about himself that ( ) have the mind of a scientist. magic* = atheistic belief that matter have creative powers. Not a single scientific evidence.Sandy
April 10, 2023
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Querius/193
Seversky @191, Remember this quote?
Data is not information, information is not knowledge, knowledge is not understanding, understanding is not wisdom. -Clifford Stoll
That's nice but it tells us what they aren't but not what they are.Seversky
April 10, 2023
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CD, maybe you might consider Schicklegruber:
Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same level produces a medium between the level of the two parents . . . Consequently, it will later succumb in the struggle against the higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a higher breeding of all life . . . The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development of organic living beings [--> i.e. evolution] would be unthinkable. The consequence of this racial purity, universally valid in Nature, is not only the sharp outward delimitation of the various races, but their uniform character in themselves. The fox is always a fox, the goose a goose, the tiger a tiger, etc., and the difference can lie at most in the varying measure of force, strength, intelligence, dexterity, endurance, etc., of the individual specimens. But you will never find a fox who in his inner attitude might, for example, show humanitarian tendencies toward geese, as similarly there is no cat with a friendly inclination toward mice [--> Jewish or Polish or Russian geese and mice, take due notice] . . . . In the struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the healthiest. [That is, Darwinian sexual selection.] And struggle is always a means for improving a species’ health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher development. If the process were different, all further and higher development would cease and the opposite would occur. For, since the inferior always predominates numerically over the best [NB: this is a theme in Darwin's discussion of the Irish, the Scots and the English etc in chs 5 - 7 of Descent of Man], if both had the same possibility of preserving life and propagating, the inferior would multiply so much more rapidly that in the end the best would inevitably be driven into the background, unless a correction of this state of affairs were undertaken. Nature does just this by subjecting the weaker part to such severe living conditions that by them alone the number is limited, and by not permitting the remainder to increase promiscuously, but making a new and ruthless choice according to strength and health . . . [Mein Kampf, Bk I, Ch XI]
(And Darwin, and even Wells' warning.) KF PS, you might want to study the history of the first priest ordained in the New World, Las Casas.kairosfocus
April 10, 2023
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JVL, complex functional performance based on integrated configuration is readily seen to depend on precise matching, orientation, arranging and coupling of parts, which naturally results in fine tuning, thus islands of function. You tell us how say a dragonfly's flight capacity per empirically warranted incremental steps, came about -- and not with handwaving or just so stories. KFkairosfocus
April 10, 2023
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CR, rubbish. Darwin highlights NS in the title of Origin and here gave an explanation. I cited him as historical anchor point of meaning, drawing out basic issues. I cannot but notice that where I reapeatedly drew up a summary in terms of causal chains, you have been unresponsive. The bottomline is obvious, as at 125:
1: chance variation [CV] + differential reproductive success [DRS] –> Descent with unlimited modification [DWUM], where 1a: CV + ({fitness slope [FS] –> statistically biased reproductive success [SBRS]} –> DRS) –> DWUM (hence, continent of incrementally accessible viable forms, CIAF, and DRS is seen to be a result) 1b: CIAF + GT –> Branching tree body plan level macroevolution [BTME] 2: DWUM + geologic time [GT] –> Branching tree body plan evolution [BTME] 3: BTME + GT –> world of life, fossil and living [WoL]
Notice, I draw out the implicit assumptions and summarise what is happening, culling out of less successful forms, thus the NS is a subtraction of information not the source, which is left to chance variation. The inadequacy of this claimed or implied source is manifest. Especially, given requisites of the sort of fine tuned complex functional integration that say goes into a dragonfly. And if you doubt that, talk with a helicopter or drone designer. KFkairosfocus
April 10, 2023
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Querius/185 The term "favored races" in Origins doesn't mean human races. Generally, it means healthy procreative lines. For example, Darwin discusses "superior races" of various plants. There is very little discussion of humans in the Origin. So, in the context of the Origin, it doesn't make sense to ask, "what exactly are these “favored races” among humans?" I would think your beef would more be with The Descent of Man, which, while seemingly harsh in parts, nonetheless pretty accurately describes the course of human development. Displacement of indigenous cultures is inevitable, and the process of displacing indigenous cultures began long before Darwin lived. The most obvious example is the Spanish and Portuguese "conquest" of Meso- and South America which occurred with the full backing and sponsorship of the Church.chuckdarwin
April 10, 2023
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Hnorman42: It’s those seas of nonfunction that’s the problem. Natural selection depends on feedback and there is no feedback when there is no function. Umm, remember: starting with a viable, functional life form, variation arises. Some of that variation is not viable/non-functional and doesn't create offspring with the same variation. Some of the variation is viable enough to survive and pass on its characteristics. Life forms that create offspring are all connected by paths of viability or function. There are no islands of function because all life is connected. But, if anyone thinks there are islands of function then please provide a specific example. So far no one has been able to do so but I live in hope.JVL
April 10, 2023
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Seversky @191, Remember this quote?
Data is not information, information is not knowledge, knowledge is not understanding, understanding is not wisdom. -Clifford Stoll
-QQuerius
April 9, 2023
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. . . as there’s no hope that these trolls will ever repudiate the racism in Darwin’s theory.
Q.E.D. @187 Repeating my challenge ad nauseum from @185:
Querius: In Charles Darwin’s book, “On the Origin of the Species By Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of the Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life,” what exactly are these “favoured races” among humans?
Querius: Also, in the link that Alan Fox provided, maybe someone could elaborate on what Wikipedia meant by
Darwin did feel that the “savage races” of man would be subverted by the “civilised races” at some point in the near future, as stated in the human races section below. He did show a certain disdain for “savages”, professing that he felt more akin to certain altruistic tendencies in monkeys than he did to “a savage who delights to torture his enemies”. However, Darwin is not advocating genocide, but clinically predicting, by analogy to the ways that “more fit” varieties in a species displace other varieties, the likelihood that indigenous peoples will eventually die out from their contact with “civilization”, or become absorbed into it completely.
-QQuerius
April 9, 2023
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What are the differences between "knowledge", "information", "data" and "complexity"? They are not simple, monolithic concepts as is often implied here. UD published an OP by William Dembski a few years back in which he referred to a list of upwards of 40 usages for "information" and "complexity" compiled by Seth Lloyd, who wrote the following
The world has grown more complex recently, and the number of ways of measuring complexity has grown even faster. This multiplication of measures has been taken by some to indicate confusion in the field of complex systems. In fact, the many measures of complexity represent variations on a few underlying themes. Here is an (incomplete) list of measures of complexity grouped into the corresponding themes. An historical analog to the problem of measuring complexity is the problem of describing electromagnetism before Maxwell's equations. In the case of electromagnetism, quantities such as electric and magnetic forces that arose in different experimental contexts were originally regarded as fundamentally different. Eventually it became clear that electricity and magnetism were in fact closely related aspects of the same fundamental quantity, the electromagnetic field. Similarly, contemporary researchers in architecture, biology, computer science, dynamical systems, engineering, finance, game theory, etc., have defined different measures of complexity for each field. Because these researchers were asking the same questions about the complexity of their different subjects of research, however, the answers that they came up with for how to measure complexity bear a considerable similarity to eachother. Three questions that researchers frequently ask to quantify the complexity of the thing (house, bacterium, problem, process, investment scheme) under study are 1. How hard is it to describe? 2. How hard is it to create? 3. What is its degree of organization? Here is a list of some measures of complexity grouped according to the question that they try to answer. Measures within a group are typically closely related quantities.
Seversky
April 9, 2023
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@KF
F.N: Origin of Species, Ch 4:
This is yet another example of Darwin says x. Which is an appeal to sources, not ideas. When I present a constructor theoretic reformulation of natural selection, KF quotes Darwin. Go figure. Of course, KF. Natural selection must be what Darwin said it 160+ was and that is frozen in time. It's like KF and company think science merely the task of correctly defining words.critical rationalist
April 9, 2023
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Recently I summarized the islands of function idea as being a metaphor for specified complexity. "There's just a lot more ways for matter to be put together that don't yield a complex function than there are those that do." (Approximate self quote - I hope I don't accuse myself of quote mining). I was pointing out that the metaphor was for something that was common to both sides - the existence of complex specified information. That's the problem that both Darwinists and ID'ers are trying to explain. Turns out on inspection that I was missing half the point. Islands of function represents a good metaphor for complex functional information but it also highlights the basic problem that natural selection has with it. It's those seas of nonfunction that's the problem. Natural selection depends on feedback and there is no feedback when there is no function.hnorman42
April 9, 2023
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As they've been told ad nauseamSeversky
April 9, 2023
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Inquiring minds want to watch the usual ad hominems and evasions as previously demonstrated as there’s no hope that these trolls will ever repudiate the racism in Darwin’s theory.
That's ad hominem, Querius. :)Alan Fox
April 9, 2023
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Ah, UD back up again. For how long, I wonder.Alan Fox
April 9, 2023
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And still ignoring Darwinian racism? In Charles Darwin's book, “On the Origin of the Species By Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of the Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life," what exactly are these "favoured races" among humans? Also, in the link that Alan Fox provided, maybe someone could elaborate on what Wikipedia meant by
Darwin did feel that the "savage races" of man would be subverted by the "civilised races" at some point in the near future, as stated in the human races section below. He did show a certain disdain for "savages", professing that he felt more akin to certain altruistic tendencies in monkeys than he did to "a savage who delights to torture his enemies". However, Darwin is not advocating genocide, but clinically predicting, by analogy to the ways that "more fit" varieties in a species displace other varieties, the likelihood that indigenous peoples will eventually die out from their contact with "civilization", or become absorbed into it completely.
Inquiring minds want to watch the usual ad hominems and evasions as previously demonstrated as there's no hope that these trolls will ever repudiate the racism in Darwin's theory. -QQuerius
April 8, 2023
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@ Chuck, thanks. Well folks, I really thought UD was a goner this time. Apologies for #176 and #177. Site froze on me from then until now.Alan Fox
April 8, 2023
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@ Chuck, thanks. Well folks, I really thought UD was a goner this time.Alan Fox
April 8, 2023
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Good people everywhere, listen to Sandy. Whenever I write about random variation, natural selection, and the going extinct of more than 99% of all species, it is only to show that the Darwinian concept is internally incoherent — not because I hold it to be real.Origenes
April 8, 2023
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People there is no such thing like natural selection because selection is made by information from living creatures and information is not natural , is supernatural. If were natural then we would observe everywhere around us how chemistry creates information spontaneously . There is no such thing except in the dreams of a materialist atheist.Sandy
April 8, 2023
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AF/174 Well played. Unfortunately, Larry Moran is anathema on this website. Why? Because he's a real scientist. And, maybe also because he's Canadian :-)chuckdarwin
April 8, 2023
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