Eric Hedin: Information and Nature

_{Eric Hedin

May 23, 2022

Information

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In a short article posted recently at Reasons to Believe Scholars’ blog, I present some conceptual considerations of information, nature and life.

The question of the significance of human existence comes sharply into focus as we consider the origin of life itself. Do the laws of nature support the origin of life from nonlife, or do they argue against it? In order to address this question, it is helpful to consider a defining characteristic of all living things, namely their phenomenal information content. Naturalistic explanations attempting to reach the heights of information content found in even the simplest living thing have appealed to “dumb luck” or to some unobserved natural law. However, consideration of the known and observed laws of physics in conjunction with the finite limits of “chance” within our universe appear to rule out any natural origin of the vastly complex biomolecular metropolis found within the cells of life.

The information content of the universe exponentially increased with the formation of the first living organism. Since natural processes always work to lower the information content of any closed (or effectively closed) system over time, the origin of life represents an unnatural event in the history of our universe.
See full article at Reasons to Believe Scholars’ Blog

Comments

Lieutenant Commander Data @47,
Theologic arguments don’t convince the materialists and who is already a Christian know your arguments and is no need to be convinced.
Yes, I agree with you. Your observation is similar to what Blaise Pascal wrote in his notes, Pensées, that "Christian evidences are evidences for Christians." 1. While my Christian faith is the most wonderful and precious aspect of my life, it's based on faith and not on science. With the exception of Darwinism, science is NOT based on faith, but on observation, careful experimentation, and logical conclusions. 2. Conversely, my Christian faith not in conflict with the scientific method, although scientific understanding is in constant flux. Indeed, the earliest written description of the full scientific method is found in the book of Daniel often dated 2,600 years before the present. 3. I'm not in favor about injecting speculations about God into the discussions at Uncommon Descent for the following reasons: (3a) Uncommon Descent is not a theological website, (3b) Intelligent Design is not a theological position (ID takes no position on the source of the intelligence), (3c) the probability that speculations about God, His nature, His thoughts, His motives are wrong is virtually guaranteed to be 100% because (3c1) the Bible clearly states this, and (3c2) extrapolating the mind-blowing genius and complexity of God's presumed creation, the chance of our comprehending the Creator's mind approaches 0%. Christianity and Judaism are revealed and NOT deduced faiths. Any human presumption beyond this is disrespectful of the Creator, ignoring the warnings from the Bible (both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah). 3d) Frequent posts here by Darwinists and trollbots to introduce God into the discussion have a purpose including, but not limited to 3d1) Trolling for fun and ridiculing those who've chosen the presumption of design in their scientific endeavors. 3d2) Demonstrating that ID is a theistic position. 3d3) Promoting a doctrinal position. 3d4) Reassuring those who have lost their faith through bitter experiences that their atheism is a logically inevitable conclusion (which it's not). -QQuerius_{June 1, 2022
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Silver Asiatic I’d call the crucifixion of Christ the worst evil that happened in the world.
Can you use an logic argument that is not related to religion? Theologic arguments don't convince the materialists and who is already a Christian know your arguments and is no need to be convinced. First you say we can't know the attributes of God from biology and next day you use directly the attributes of God to make "scientific" arguments . The foreknowledge of God is translated as :information (about all events from this world) is present before world is created. I know that by faith but I don't understand how this happens , neither you but you present it if you understand it. You just believe that is the case but somehow you present a faith aquired knowledge as logical argument, which is not.Lieutenant Commander Data_{June 1, 2022
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LCD
What about all the evil that happens in the world(much more than good) ?
I'd call the crucifixion of Christ the worst evil that happened in the world. You think Jesus didn't know it (and He didn't predict it) and that God Himself was surprised it happened? It was even predicted in the book of Isaiah. I thought you were a Christian of one sort - not sure on that. It's a religious conversation at this point so off-topic here.Silver Asiatic_{May 30, 2022
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doubter
The problem here is that God is not just omniscient, but He is supposedly also omnipotent, all-powerful. That means that God would have known that for instance, 6 million Jews would be killed in the Holocaust unless certain multiple human free will decisions were changed.
About 120 billion people have lived on earth - and all of them died. How many died "the second death"? That's for you to consider or predict. But this blog isn't the best place for us to discuss religion.
Given these assumptions about God, God knew what these free will decisions would be, yet rather than change these decisions (or other circumstances) chose to do nothing.
Nothing aside from creating your life, giving you personhood, creating the universe, and creating an eternal destiny for each person. I could go into additional gifts God has given humanity and the universe, but again - it's a religious conversation.
Logical conclusions: either (1) God is not good, or (2) God either can not control (or chooses not to control) human free will decisions, or (3) cannot predict such evil free will human decisions. (1) is clearly unacceptable, so obviously either options (2) or (3) are the case.
Why do you skip over the most basic conclusion that life on this earth is temporary - it's a proving ground, and there is recompense in the hereafter? Eye has not seen, ear has not heard of the glory and greatness given to those who love God. This is what believers think - so why exclude their idea from your "logical options"? Again, you're probing theological and religious issues so I'd think you'd want to use religious understandings in your analysis. If you're approaching the topic from an atheistic perspective then that doesn't make a lot of sense. If God doesn't exist, then there's no sense in saying what God could or couldn't do.
If God is truly and absolutely omniscient and omnipotent, then He is ultimately responsible for all that happens in heaven and earth, including all the painfully achieved human artistic, musical, inventive and other categories of creative endeavors.
By his omnipotence he has given us an opportunity to make free choices, practice virtue or sin and have ownership for our actions.
And that means that these human endeavors and works of artistic, musical, etc. creativity must have been preplanned by God, and therefore these human beings must have been controlled so as to create these works.
God has created human beings with the capability of having free choice, within limits. That's why we have a conscience and feel good or bad depending on the nature of our actions.
So our preferred Deistic metaphysics should be that God does have certain limitations, either absolute or self-imposed, so that our human lives can have meaning, purpose and goodness..
Yes, omnipotence and omniscience does not mean that God does not have limitations. God cannot destroy himself, for example - if you want to call that a limitation. There are many other things that the reality of eternal being is limited on. If you want to say that God is limited in His relationship with human beings that works also. God allows humans to make free choices, so God has limits there. Again a parent may know what a child will choose but knowing that does not force the child to that choice. The point at the beginning remains - all of the information is known eternally to God. This does not mean that He forces people to do things.Silver Asiatic_{May 30, 2022
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LCD:
So, you’re telling me that Hitler “information” was in God mind from eternity ?
No. Just in our universe.
You’ve just added a new lie...
Your ignorance does not equate to me lying. :)ET_{May 30, 2022
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Silver Asiatic Daniel Tammet’s story is evidence that the information exists in a spiritual realm and our mind taps into it
What about all the evil that happens in the world(much more than good) ? Some people watched too many hollywood movies. Or maybe they taped in the wrong spiritual realm? To say that all wars/crimes in the world were already in the spiritual realm when those people didn't even exist is to accuse God of preparing the evil and take the responsability from people who do evil.
ET So, God had a beginning? The cosmic egg had a beginning?
So, you're telling me that Hitler "information" was in God mind from eternity ?
ET We will never add any information to it.
You've just added a new lie so it's possible to add new information. :)Lieutenant Commander Data_{May 30, 2022
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God is not beholden to our definitions.
This information certainly has not eternally existed in this physical Universe,...
This physical universe hasn't existed eternally. But all the information has existed in this physical universe. We will never add any information to it.ET_{May 30, 2022
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Silver Asiatic
The idea that we can freely choose and also merit reward or punishment for our free moral actions, is not in conflict with the fact that God knows all things. He has created the world for a reason and He gives his creatures a chance to participate in free decisions and choices to love or hate, to do good or evil.
The problem here is that God is not just omniscient, but He is supposedly also omnipotent, all-powerful. That means that God would have known that for instance, 6 million Jews would be killed in the Holocaust unless certain multiple human free will decisions were changed. Given these assumptions about God, God knew what these free will decisions would be, yet rather than change these decisions (or other circumstances) chose to do nothing. Logical conclusions: either (1) God is not good, or (2) God either can not control (or chooses not to control) human free will decisions, or (3) cannot predict such evil free will human decisions. (1) is clearly unacceptable, so obviously either options (2) or (3) are the case. If God is truly and absolutely omniscient and omnipotent, then He is ultimately responsible for all that happens in heaven and earth, including all the painfully achieved human artistic, musical, inventive and other categories of creative endeavors. And that means that these human endeavors and works of artistic, musical, etc. creativity must have been preplanned by God, and therefore these human beings must have been controlled so as to create these works. This applies also to all other human actions. Again, the conclusion must be that humans must be puppets or robots that only seem to have free will. So our preferred Deistic metaphysics should be that God does have certain limitations, either absolute or self-imposed, so that our human lives can have meaning, purpose and goodness..doubter_{May 30, 2022
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doubter
It is a spiritual view that totally devalues human creative accomplishment, sweat and tears.
Because we have been created by God and we owe our continued existence, as well as all the gifts of intelligence and even physical powers (our sweat and tears) and the opportunities we have to use such things - to the continued providence of God, does not devalue what we are or what we do. It may devalue it in the eyes of atheists, but they proclaim a devalued reality anyway. But if God has created us, we have great meaning and value, even if we cannot create things from nothing.
If God ultimately has forever known precisely what each of His created souls (with their Divinely imbued consciousness and free will) will accomplish and create in this physical world, then He has manipulated human life from the beginning, with human beings really puppets or robots carrying out preordained instructions.
That doesn't follow. Knowing what we will do does not mean we have lacked freedom of choice to do things. God is omniscient because He exists eternally and there can be no new information added over an infinite span. He is fullness of being - our knowledge doesn't add anything to His completeness. Otherwise, he would be ignorant and capable of learning more - and thus lacking perfection.
One implication of this is that there are no higher but still humanly meaningful justifications for suffering – it has been ordained for Man from the beginning. Your views seem to be along the lines of Calvinism and predestination, where Calvin himself defined predestination as “the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man.” A sure recipe for nihilism and despair.
It's nihilism and despair because it confuses God's care for His creatures with the idea that our actions are determined by God. The idea that we can freely choose and also merit reward or punishment for our free moral actions, is not in conflict with the fact that God knows all things. He has created the world for a reason and He gives his creatures a chance to participate in free decisions and choices to love or hate, to do good or evil. These are not forced on people as the Calvinist doctrine would have it. The freedom we have belongs to us - it's what we experience and it is real. A parent may know what a child will choose in certain situations, but the parent is not forcing the child to choose those things.Silver Asiatic_{May 29, 2022
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Doubter
it is much more likely that higher spiritual beings were intelligent creative agents that greatly assisted Mozart in this endeavor, in addition to his own subconscious mind
Yes, that does seem right. Daniel Tammet's story is evidence that the information exists in a spiritual realm and our mind taps into it: Daniel Tammet - The Boy With The Incredible Brain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbASOcqc1SsSilver Asiatic_{May 29, 2022
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LCD:
matter and energy had a beginning
So, God had a beginning? The cosmic egg had a beginning?ET_{May 29, 2022
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Yes, the unconscious mind has the ability to tap into all of the existing information.ET_{May 29, 2022
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ET and Silver Asiatic I notice that you have not responded to most of the points I have made in these posts, especially 33. Kekule famously visualized the structure of benzene in a dream. This can most readily be explained as the workings of the unconscious/subconscious mind, which has amazing capacities, including sometime access to the spiritual realm. The unconscious/subconscious mind sometimes works behind the scenes, in its own mysterious way, and has found its way to a solution. Typically, this is only after the often genius level person has spent many years totally absorbing and understanding the existing information and theory of the subject or area. This effort embeds this knowledge in the unconscious/subconscious mind to be used by it. Also famously, Mozart had entire scores of operas and symphonies and sonatas come to him as fast as he could transcribe them. This does not detract from the essential component of his having carried out many years of prior study and composition. Rather than the notion that Mozart read the entire inspired structure of his Symphony No. 35 from something like the spiritualist concept of the Akashic Records embedded forever (having no composer) in spiritual reality (surely an illogical concept since a massive structure of complex specified information only can come from intelligence), it is much more likely that higher spiritual beings were intelligent creative agents that greatly assisted Mozart in this endeavor, in addition to his own subconscious mind.doubter_{May 29, 2022
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ET Again, how did the revelations of Srinivasa Ramanujan and Nikola Tesla work without that information already existing? Information, as with matter and energy, cannot be created nor destroyed.
This is false: matter and energy had a beginning so obviously can be created(not by humans ). Energy is consumed therefore is destroyed from the initial level of free energy (heat death of the universe). About information : God created the information about atomic bomb , ar about Hitler, Stalin killing millions before the creation of the world ? If yes, then you make God responsible. :) Not only Tesla or Ramanujan but many other people (that are focused much more than others) and have natural gifts toward a certain domain understand things earlier than "the majority" . Barbara McClintock ("jumping gene") understood from 1944 what "the leaders of science" will understand only after 40 years .Lieutenant Commander Data_{May 29, 2022
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Again, how did the revelations of Srinivasa Ramanujan and Nikola Tesla work without that information already existing? Information, as with matter and energy, cannot be created nor destroyed.ET_{May 29, 2022
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Silver Asiatic and ET Concerning the issue of your claim of the eternal pre-existence of all the information constituting all of the free-will sentient conscious creations of artists, composers and inventors, I suppose that in principle this information may have eternally existed in God's mind. But this is totally irrelevant to human life. This information certainly has not eternally existed in this physical Universe, and humans live and work in this physical Universe, where artistic, musical, inventive and other categories of human activity have brought supremely meaningful and sometimes beautiful new organizational information into existence, works that are the result of great conscious sentient creative imaginative effort. Also, this claim of the eternal pre-existence of all humanly created and humanly meaningful information has some unfortunate implications. It is a spiritual view that totally devalues human creative accomplishment, sweat and tears. If God ultimately has forever known precisely what each of His created souls (with their Divinely imbued consciousness and free will) will accomplish and create in this physical world, then He has manipulated human life from the beginning, with human beings really puppets or robots carrying out preordained instructions. One implication of this is that there are no higher but still humanly meaningful justifications for suffering - it has been ordained for Man from the beginning. Your views seem to be along the lines of Calvinism and predestination, where Calvin himself defined predestination as "the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man." A sure recipe for nihilism and despair.doubter_{May 28, 2022
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Silver Asiatic Do you think we surprise God when we come up with a new thought?
:) You are doing it wrong. Don't use God card as if it's your personal perspective because is not. Maybe you want to contribute to discussion with your more down to earth arguments , like using logic and reason until we reach the point of impasse and then you can use your "I know God's mind" card . Was a time when there were no humans on earth and then after a while were humans on earth and you say that nothing is new. :) PS: But I could be wrong and you indeed know God's mind so I would like to explain to us how God knows from the beginning of time the exact time /date/ content of your next message on this forum.Lieutenant Commander Data_{May 28, 2022
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.Form? Information doesn’t have any form.
:) No form no information. Do you know an information that can be recognised without the help of a form ? Nobody can "see" an information without the help of a form (information is molded in matter or energy).Lieutenant Commander Data_{May 28, 2022
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Doubter
And exactly how did these artistic and musical and inventive creators access that information?
Mozart and Rembrant would have said they accessed it through the Holy Spirit enlightening them - or artistic inspiration. Mozart was a genius but he didn't invent music. He just discovered what was possible within the notes, tones and structures that were given as part of human reality. We didn't invent logic or math or music - or even the capability of pigment to go on canvas and portray human life (as with Rembrant's portrait). Those were given to human life as sources of information -- and the ultimate source comes from the intelligent creator of life and the universe.Silver Asiatic_{May 28, 2022
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LCD
A new information can be invented by a mind and doesn’t exist on an abstract shelf of all possible informations ...
Do you think we surprise God when we come up with a new thought? Do you think God is learning something new each day when He sees what humans do? Perhaps God is ignorant and we teach Him new things with all the new information we create? Did we invent music, for example? Or did God create the possibility for music with notes that fit a finite scale suitable for the human ear, and the genius of Mozart was to discover what was available within those scales and patterns and make them come to life? The potential for legos to be certain things exist within the reality of what legos are. That people can arrange them in new ways make "new information" from the human vantage point, but we're talking from God's perspective - where all information, truth and knowledge resides.Silver Asiatic_{May 28, 2022
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doubter- research Srinivasa Ramanujan and Nikola Tesla. What else explains their revelations besides that the information already existed? How? Because that is how the universe was intelligently designed. Information cannot be created or destroyed. Form? Information doesn't have any form.ET_{May 28, 2022
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Doubter Mozart’s Symphony No. 35 (Haffner) and Rembrandt’s self portraits always existed
Indeed music ,art, all human inventions didn't exist before. If you buy a Lego and build a new structure that doesn't mean that structure existed before but just was on the set of all possible forms that Lego can build. A new information can be invented by a mind and doesn't exist on an abstract shelf of all possible informations waiting to jump like a ghost in a new invention.Lieutenant Commander Data_{May 28, 2022
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ET:
"All possible energy and matter already exist."
I suppose so, in the form of elementary particles and energy quanta, but all possible CONFIGURATIONS of energy and matter (as constituting these works of music and art and invention)? I don't think so.
"Information is neither matter or energy. Yet we accept that all the matter and energy that is available is inherent in the system."
Rather nebulous generalities. I notice that you don't specify exactly where and in what form the information of Mozart's Haffner Symphony, and Rembrandt's self-portraits, and Edison's light bulb existed in the year 1500. And if this pre-existing information was not instantiated in either matter or energy, then exactly how or in what form? And exactly how did these artistic and musical and inventive creators access that information? I'm waiting.doubter_{May 28, 2022
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Doubter:
The notion that all possible information is already inherent in the physical system of Nature doesn’t make sense.
It makes perfect sense. All possible energy and matter already exist
For instance, the obvious artistic and musical creativity of the great artists and composers.
OK. Those people were the ones who discovered it. Information is neither matter or energy. Yet we accept that all the matter and energy that is available is inherent in the system.ET_{May 28, 2022
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The notion that all possible information is already inherent in the physical system of Nature doesn't make sense. For instance it totally denies human much less God's creativity. For instance, the obvious artistic and musical creativity of the great artists and composers. This is claiming for example that Mozart's Symphony No. 35 (Haffner) and Rembrandt's self portraits always existed in some sort of potential that "only" had to be uncovered or decoded by intelligence. Or in another field entirely, that Edison's light bulb already existed in the year 1500 AD. An invention with no inventor, ever. Nonsense. These works of music and art were humanly meaningful information consisting of organizations of musical tones of particular frequencies and other characteristics, and patterns of paint in colors, light and shade, etc., that simply didn't exist before their creators slowly developed their unique personalities and backgrounds and created them as ineffable acts of sentient consciousness. Mozart and Rembrandt didn't exist before being born and living their lives leading to these creative acts of imaginative intelligence informed by a deep knowledge of musical forms, sounds, etc. This should be intuitively obvious. I would challenge holders of this theory to find and reveal the patterns and information in Nature constituting these unique creative works, in Nature before the composer's and artist's and inventor's births and lives. That information was simply not there to be found, for instance in the year 1500 AD.doubter_{May 27, 2022
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Silver Asiatic:
If God didn’t possess all possible information, then where would he get the rest of it from?
I honestly thought that would have come from bornagain77. Well played.ET_{May 24, 2022
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That all information already exists explains why revelation is a way of knowing. Srinivasa Ramanujan is a perfect example of knowledge via revelation. As is Nikola Tesla. Their revelations were only possible because of the fact the information already existed. And somehow, they were able to tap into it.ET_{May 24, 2022
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JVL
Is it possible that all possible information is already inherent in the system?
If God didn't possess all possible information, then where would he get the rest of it from? With infinite being, everything that could possibly exist, must exist in God. Nothing "new" can be created outside of His Being (which is the fullness of existence). So, all information already exists.
Does that not argue against free will and creativity? If I’m wrong then tell me.
If I build a house, I'm using materials that already exist. I'm using an idea that already exists (what a house is, what a roof, door, walls, floors are, etc.). I may make a house that never existed before, but all of the information already existed. Creativity is not harmed because I re-arranged already existing materials and ideas. The house is in a "new location" - but the location already exists. So, there's "new information in that location". But it's really a rearrangement of existing information. Existing materials, ideas and the location already existed. It's not a creation from nothing. It's just positioning what was already there. It's the same with an idea. The words already exist, the concepts used exist, the logic exists. We may discover a new mathematical process, but we don't create it - it's already inherent in mathematics, we just reveal the potential that was always there. We don't have the power to create something from nothing. We have to make use what exists already. Whatever information we create existed potentially and inherently in reality already.Silver Asiatic_{May 24, 2022
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JVL said:
Considering that there are literally countless events that potentially changed the ‘future’ dramatically how much information can be potential in the system? It seems to me that you are saying there is virtually an infinite amount of potential information somewhat ready to go. That sounds suspiciously like a multiple universes view of things.
Multiverse theory is a conceptualization rooted in materialism, originally proposed as one explanation for the data from quantum physics experimental results. Further experimentation has disproved materialism, so the classical multiverse model is no longer viable. Unfortunately for pretty much everyone here on both sides of these debates, decades of experiments designed for the purpose of preserving some form of realism (materialism is a form of realism) have actually disproved realism, leaving only ontological idealism as capable of explaining the results of the experiments. This means that information is the currency of experience. Not objects with innate information. Not energy carrying information. Just information. It is information that constructs objects and energy and patterns and physical laws in our experience, just as it does in a dream. Under an idealist ontology, what does it mean to say there is a "universe," or "many universes?" Under idealism, all you can be talking about when you say "a universe" is the aggregate information that has been transformed into the experience of a sentient being. There are as many "universes" as there are sentient beings because each sentient being is processing, to some degree, different information because of their individual perspective. Without some form of realism, that's all that can be occurring. There is no set "universe" out there that everyone is accessing. To the degree our experiences correlate with each other, we may be accessing the same informational potentials and translating them into highly corresponding experiences, but that information is not "out there" in any innate "realism" format. All that potential information is within all of us being directly accessed and translated into personal experiences in mind. What all is in the potential? Anything you can imagine. (I would argue, anything anyone can possibly imagine, any possible experience.) If it wasn't in the potential, you would not be able to imagine it, because the act of imagining something still requires the potential to experience it that way, even if only in one's imagination. But, under an idealist ontology, what is imagination? It may not be what it appears to be under a materialist ontology. Under idealism, what is "real" has an entirely different meaning. Under idealism, what is real is experience, and imagination is an experience.William J Murray_{May 24, 2022
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Jorge @17, I clicked your link and the page says the video is no longer available.William J Murray_{May 24, 2022
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