Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A 30-year old letter to the editor of the Purdue Exponent

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

I was a visiting assistant professor (math/CS) at Purdue University in 1978-79, when I responded to a letter in the Purdue student newspaper (the Exponent), which compared those who doubt Darwin to “flat earthers”, as follows:

“Last year I surveyed the literature on evolution in the biology library of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and found Olan Hyndman’s The Origin of Life and the Evolution of Living Things in which he calls the neo-Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection `the most irrational and illogical explanation of natural phenomenon extant’ and proposes an alternative theory; Rene Dubos’ The Torch of Life in which he says `[The neo-Darwinian theory’s] real strength is that however implausible it may appear to its opponents they do not have a more plausible one to offer in its place’; and Jean Rostand’s A Biologist’s View in which he says that the variations which made up evolution must have been `creative and not random.’ Rostand, who elsewhere has called the neo-Darwinian theory a `fairy tale for adults,’ attributes this creativeness to the genes themselves, and says `quite a number of biologists do, in fact, fall back on these hypothetical variations to explain the major steps of evolution.’…I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.”

To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? That is the only difference between Jean Rostand’s theory and the theory of intelligent design. Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”, in fact, it could be easily argued that Rostand—though an atheist–was himself an ID proponent. But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and “not science” to attribute creativeness to another part?

PostScript—in light of some comments below, let me make it clear that the issue being discussed is NOT whether or not the evidence supports any of these ideas, but whether they can be dismissed a priori as “not science”, before looking at the evidence. Darwinism is obviously a scientific theory, whether it is good science is another question. If Rostand’s theory is accepted as scientific, and housed in the biology library of a National Lab, there seems to be no reason to reject ID as “not science”, before looking at the evidence, as most scientists today still do. And if it is scientific to attribute creativity to the brain, how can it be “unscientific” to attribute creativity to the genes, as Rostand does? Whether the evidence supports Rostand’s theory is a completely separate issue.

Comments
Kahn, "are you extrapolating from micro- to macro-design?" Have you not seen the latest anatomically correct legs, arms, etc., created by Intelligent Designers? Are you not aware of Robotics? How about Leonardo da Vinci? You seem to be coming from a very blind spot and ignoring the obvious. Notice that they work on micro and macro solutions, different Designers every day. Your point is meaningless. Frankly you just gave the argument away to Jerry. "...correct me if I’m wrong, but I think by your standards what is going on there just qualifies as “micro-design.”" So what, it is still Intelligent Design. You score no points for this charade of a rebuttal. You lose in the case of macro Intelligent Designs as well. I'm trying to be very nice here, but your argument is vacuous. You must also be oblvious to research where science is recreating organs within weeks. And it is predicted in the not to distant future this will be common - by Intelligent beings, reproducing both by DNA, cellular and in working with engineered bio-mechanical devices. "Or have they designed any novel complex traits?" Are you stating that life engineers never will? Is this really your point? By asking the quetion, you're not recognizing the Design elephant in the room. Design either at the micro or macro level happens daily by intelligent human beings. Do you realize how absurd your argument is now? You are making Jerry's point for him and for the ID case. For example, Life Engineers are already contemplating, pontificating, considering systems archictecture designs for Evolutionary Design Life forms in the future. How can they anticipate and create a life form to adapt. This is not new stuff. If Designers in the future create a life form that evolves - they will do so intelligently, not blindly. The future is the end of blind, unguided processes. FrontLoading is a possible Intelligent Design future program for seeding other planets and terrraforming. You cannot argue with the future impact of the Design Paradigm. You can only argue about the past with story telling and psuedo-intellectual guesses about what "may" have happened. Arguing over the past is fun, but the future is Design. But story telling is not science. It will go the way of the Dino-Bird theory - extinct. It will be recognized as the guessing game that it is, and hopefully more money will be put forward to operational sciences.DATCG
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
09:51 PM
9
09
51
PM
PDT
Lenoxus, A lot of things. First, I have been here about 4 years and seen hundreds of people coming here to undermine ID or straighten us out. None have. Every post for over 4 years is available on this site except for a few which were removed for obnoxious purposes. Second, we have the advantage over you who are new because we know you cannot not defend naturalistic evolution. Richard Dawkins cannot even do that without being exposed. You have to understand that there are two theories of naturalistic evolution, one that is not controversial but limited and one that is grandiose but completely unsupported. People like khan will claim that there is only one, but the evidence suggest that is not true. Third, I never mentioned God or suggested God. ID has nothing to do with religion and our experience is that anti ID people bring up God before ID people do. There are exceptions and there have been some here who only want to quote the bible or imply God is the designer. However, their arguments have nothing to do with ID. I can point you to major debates where the first thing out of the defender of naturalistic evolution is not science but that ID is religion based. Fourth, I can probably provide a much better defense of naturalistic evolution than most of those who come here defending Darwin can. I have read many of the books defending naturalistic evolution and know the arguments. The best argument for a naturalistic mechanism for evolution in my opinion is the geographical argument. However, there is absolutely no evidence for a gradualistic mechanism for evolution so the question becomes what is the naturalistic mechanism if not gradualism. Many evolutionary biologists have recognized this and this is one reason Stephen Gould declared neo Darwinism dead. People defend Darwin's gradualism because that is the only mechanism they can conceive of that could make sense. Except it does not fit the data. Darwin had many ideas but there were four main ones, natural selection, gradualism, Malthusian competition and common descent. The first three are essentially dead as major factors in evolution. There is no forensic evidence for any of them as a factor in the second theory of evolution. Yes, there is change due to sexual reproduction and it is gradual but no evidence that the change can break out of the box of what the population gene pool determines is possible. Yes, there is natural selection but it is mainly a conservative mechanism and no evidence that it creates anything. The best argument for common descent is the genomic similarity of sequences in the various species. However, the fossil record says all the phyla started at roughly the same time with high disparity and almost no diversity so common descent runs up against a road block in the Cambrian. And probably later too. So does that leave Darwin 0 for 4 or hitless in the evolution sweepstakes. Now you understand the stakes. The hero whose birth we celebrate, whose likeness is on the 10 pound note and who is buried in Westminster Abbey may be a washout in the evolution derby. How does one explain that. Mainly by mocking those who have shown that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. The whistle blowers are anathema and must be suppressed at all costs. The emperor must have overwhelming support for the greater good. And you, like hundreds before you, have come to mock us or belittle us. Have at it. But it is not an argument. It is a rhetorical and political technique. And it is working so far but for how long.jerry
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
08:53 PM
8
08
53
PM
PDT
Khan, Stop whining about design and focus on your position. Doesn't it bother you that the only "evidence" for your position is the complete refusal to allow the design inference?Joseph
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
05:35 PM
5
05
35
PM
PDT
jerry, i read the account of the video, maybe i'll watch it later. from the account, it seems like any macro-design is way off in the future and purely speculative. why don't you go ahead and defend macro-design (design of novel complex biological traits), giving a brief account of the evidence that has convinced you it's real and has been done already. you should be able to explain it in layman's terms. you can take a couple of posts if you want to.Khan
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
04:34 PM
4
04
34
PM
PDT
jerry: I love that account! I mean it. What's strange to me is that you think it's obviously ridiculous. You seem to assume that of course the designer wouldn't leave all that physical evidence, and that the reader of those paragraphs holds the same assumption. You're talking about God as though you think the idea of God actually doing all those detailed things is fundamentally ridiculous. Personally, I don't think the idea of God talking directly to anyone (to pick one example) is in and of itself ridiculous. Lots of people have claimed just such conversations, yet are considered insane because only people from Long Ago are allowed to be prophets. (I only find it ridiculous to the extent that I disbelieve in God in the first place.) I'm reminded of a guy named Galen Strawson who said "It is tempting to conclude that if [God] exists, it is the atheists and agnostics that he loves best… for they are the ones who have taken him most seriously." Why not take the designer seriously?Lenoxus
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
04:05 PM
4
04
05
PM
PDT
khan, You can make up your own mind. Go here http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/363/ There is a big department at MIt. Why not ask them how far along they are on this stuff http://web.mit.edu/be/index.htm At the moment I am watching a lecture to a class at MIT about this. If it is relevant, I will let you know.jerry
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
04:03 PM
4
04
03
PM
PDT
jerry,
It was meant for microbes.
some bacteria have telomeres too. by your sarcasm and lack of subst antive response I'll assume you have no evidence for macro-design and are taking it on faith.Khan
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
"btw, that function is not really novel. ever heard of telomeres?" It was meant for microbes. And the designer said it would take a couple million years to get up to speed. So I am willing to bet that MIT can beat that estimate. Also, I might have mis-heard the designer and it was thousands instead of millions. He thinks once you have the template, it will be easier.jerry
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
03:09 PM
3
03
09
PM
PDT
jerry,
The designer said it took around 10,000 years to design the ribosome. So MIT has a little way to go.
haha. but i must say i'm surprised at your willingness to extrapolate from micro-to macro when this is when one of the things you routinely excoriate us evolutionists for.
One video I saw said they were designing a DNA sequence that would count the number of times a cell would divide so they could keep track of where each cell came from. That may qualify as a novel trait and depending upon the total system needed to accomplish this, will determine whether it a novel complex capability.
that's the best evidence for macro-design you have? a video of someone saying they were working on something that might be novel complex trait? and you say we have no evidence for macroevolution? i know from human nature if you had better evidence you would shove it in our faces, so I conclude there is no evidence for macro-design. btw, that function is not really novel. ever heard of telomeres?Khan
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
02:47 PM
2
02
47
PM
PDT
khan, Why don't you straighten Lenoxus out since he does not seem to understand the debate.jerry
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
02:33 PM
2
02
33
PM
PDT
khan, The designer said it took around 10,000 years to design the ribosome. So MIT has a little way to go. One video I saw said they were designing a DNA sequence that would count the number of times a cell would divide so they could keep track of where each cell came from. That may qualify as a novel trait and depending upon the total system needed to accomplish this, will determine whether it a novel complex capability.jerry
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
02:30 PM
2
02
30
PM
PDT
"Unless ID is now advocating that biological life forms were designed in physical labs comparable to MIT’s? " Such a silly question like this deserves a sarcastic response. Here is one I gave a few months ago to such an equally frivolous question. Someone actually wants the laboratory techniques used 3.8 billion years ago and whether they were comparable to MIT's labs. You talk about bizarre. Are the actual lab specs and techniques used a few billion years ago similar to today's primitive technology. Here is what I know. I got word from the designer a few weeks ago and he said the original lab and blue prints were subducted under what was to become the African plate 3.4 billion years ago but by then they were mostly rubble anyway from weathering and bombardment from space. The original cells were relatively simple but still very complex. Subsequent plants/labs went the same way and unfortunately all holograph videos of it are now in hyper space and haven’t been looked at for at least 3 million years. No further work has been done for quite awhile and the designer expects future work to be done by the latest design itself. The designer travels via hyper space between his home and our area of the universe when it is necessary. The designer said the techniques used were much more sophisticated than anything dreamed of by current synthetic biologist crowd but in a couple million years they may get up to speed and understand how it was actually done. The designer said it is actually a lot more difficult than people think especially since this was a new technique and he had to invent the DNA/RNA/protein process from scratch but amazingly they had the right chemical properties. His comment was “Thank God for that” or else he doesn’t think he would have been able to do it. It took him about 20,000 of our years just experimenting with amino acid combinations to get a set of usable proteins. And almost half that time just figuring out how to make a ribosome. He said it will be easier for current scientists since they will have a template to work off.jerry
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PDT
Lenoxus:
As far as I’m concerned, ID doesn’t even offer a narrative of any kind. It consists of the word “design”, and as evidence, offers only arguments against evolution. That’s how it looks where I sit.
Science is not conducted by who has the best narrative. Also ID is not an argument against evolution. IOW it looks like you do too much sitting and not enough reading. I take it that it stings that you can't support your position. Don't blame me for your issues.Joseph
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PDT
jerry,
Design is happening right now at MIT and many other places and by Craig Ventner privately. So I do not think it is an incantation.
are you extrapolating from micro- to macro-design? correct me if I'm wrong, but I think by your standards what is going on there just qualifies as "micro-design." Or have they designed any novel complex traits?Khan
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
02:04 PM
2
02
04
PM
PDT
Joseph:
Your position doesn’t have any rigor. It just has a glossy narrative and the chant “anything but design”.
As far as I'm concerned, ID doesn't even offer a narrative of any kind. It consists of the word "design", and as evidence, offers only arguments against evolution. That's how it looks where I sit. SteveB:
Indeed. And the principle is verified by the clear consistency of moral opinion shared by, for example, Joseph Stalin and the Dalai Lama when each “merely observes that which is?”
Well, you've got me there. Unlike theists, atheists do sometimes disagree on major points of morality. Seriously, I'm not sure what universal, or even near-universal agreement, has to do with figuring out morals. This is what that reviewer Chris Hallquist was talking about with the "poll of college professors" thing. And as far as I can tell, belief in God hasn't put all believers on the same wavelength ethics-wise. jerry:
Design is happening right now at MIT and many other places and by Craig Ventner privately. So I do not think it is an incantation. You seem to be advocating something that has never been shown to happen while ID is advocating something even us simpleton humans should be doing in a few years.
Huh? But I thought that whatever humans couldn't do in a lab was supposed to prove that it couldn't happen naturally and the designer must have done it… so confused now! Unless ID is now advocating that biological life forms were designed in physical labs comparable to MIT's? If not, the comparison simply doesn't stand. I personally won't deny the minute possibility of life being physically designed by extraterrestrials (oh yes, like the Dawkins little green men that he prays to every night, tootle tee hee). I won't even deny the possibility of an immaterial designer — I just want to know where is the flyin' evidence? (For either). I recall something iconofid said in an earlier thread: having set such standards, if we witnessed an angel coming to earth and practising some genetic manipulation on one species or another, evolutionists would be perfectly justified in saying “O.K., design happens, but that’s just micro-design; you have no evidence for macro-design.” In other words, I.D.ers and creationists will never meet their own standards, but personally, I’m liberal, and I’d be happy to infer past angel interference from direct evidence of present angel interference. Substitute "designer" for "angel" in that and you might see what I'm getting at. We still haven't seen design happen. Biological design in a lab is no more evidence for what ID asserts than evolutionary interactions in the stock market are evidence for biological evolution. It's apples and oranges. Oh, and I have this weird allergy where if I encounter the claim that there is zero evidence for evolution, I sneeze this link. (Of course, it's from talkorigins, who must be biased because the position they support is evolution, so y'all can safely keep on ignoring it.)Lenoxus
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
01:55 PM
1
01
55
PM
PDT
Nakashima-san:
What distinction are you trying to make between nested hierarchies and diverging lineages?
They ain't the same thing. Lineages are based on descent. Nested hierarchies are based on characteristics. Descent is not a defining characteristic.Joseph
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
Mr Joseph, What distinction are you trying to make between nested hierarchies and diverging lineages?Nakashima
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
01:22 PM
1
01
22
PM
PDT
"Evolution, selection, exaptation, and emergence are known physical biological phenomena, even if we don’t always know when which ones have happened and to what degree. “ Well it would be a good start to indicate just what can be attributed to each. Maybe you should do that since you admit you do not always know which happened and when. When that is done, then maybe we can have a discussion. Until then, they are just things pulled out of the back seat of one's pants when one can not explain something. Design”, on the other hand, qualifies pretty well as an “incantation” for that list. " Design is happening right now at MIT and many other places and by Craig Ventner privately. So I do not think it is an incantation. You seem to be advocating something that has never been shown to happen while ID is advocating something even us simpleton humans should be doing in a few years.jerry
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
For any responders... I'll check back later tonight.DATCG
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
12:55 PM
12
12
55
PM
PDT
Nakashima, Hope you are well. "I think you are equivocating on the meaning of “direction”. Time’s arrow provides the direction." Which arrow of time are you referring to? Times Arrow is only a recording of history as we know it. A direction forward can include mass extinction, mutation and death. I'm uncertain how it says anything in favor of unguided evolution that would not be true of guided evolution or designed evolution. "Nested hierarchies are defined by additive and immutable characters." Nexted hierarchies as you speak of them are foggy edges. Correct? What happened to the nested hierarchy of Dino-Bird relationship? "Crocoducks maybe, Tiktaalik no." Tiktaalik? You consider this a valid transitional form? Why? There are secular evolutionist who do not. So where do we stand? Your opinion only is valid for science? But dissenters, like those for 200yrs against Dino-Bird hypothesis are not allowed to be heard in classes? I'm curious who decides what is feasible for teaching these days. Especially after the epic failures of such large paradigm busting programs as the Dino-bird failure. This is the problem with interpreting history. Truth is neither you nor I were there in the past. Yet for 200yrs - Dino-Bird theory taught as FACT. Now, I'm curious Mr. Nakashima. Do you consider Tiktaalik as factual as Dino-Bird? We cannot ascertain whether the creature represents transition or not with any high percentage of objectivity. It is a subjective assumption on the part of Darwinist believers. It is a guessing game not any better than the fictional story of Dino-Bird evolutoin. Finally, the secular side admitted the anatomy would not allow for transition and realized the transitions would die. 200 years of failure is bad science. Story telling and fictional accounts do not equal science. If the Dino-Bird theory was allowed for so long. An anatomical restrictive event, what else is there, what other shoddy science is being allowed to creep into education? Despite long years of skeptical criticism by Creationist, minds and time were wasted simply because of bias and prejudice against someones religious views. Again, as I argued above. Let others with differing, but reasonable opinions at the table of science. Force the one-sided current paradigm. Allow much more open debates at university levels. Force the current leaders to answer questions at the highest levels. Allow the minority view a spot at the table to argue and debate. The current paradigms failed predictions keep adding up. This could save science and students another 200yrs of disastorous failure in guessing games and maybe help us to direct our educational and research money towards more worth goals of operational science and research instead of guessing games and outdated, unproven theory.DATCG
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
David said, "When we say the “mind” does something (or the “will,” fine) we’re assuming the existence of the mind." I'm asking or trying to ask what is "will" and admit I cannot see a materialist solution at this time. Essentially, "will" is some sort of decision tree system. We cannot however today define why one person's will is stronger than anothers in similar circumstances. It may be one saw a glimpse of information that "inspired" one person's will to be "stronger" and try harder. This is all subjective stuff today, because in the end, each person must determine their own paths in life. So, I'm not assuming this "will" exist as a function of the "mind." We know that something defined as "will" exist. You may not consider it scientific, yet the word defines elequently the existence of being actively committed to overcomming obstackles in life for example. Or lack thereof, as in "he lacked the will to continue the race, so he quit." Yes, "will" it is an abstract definition because it is a summary of a systems decision making processes overall. But, since we cannot reduce it to a series of cascading events in the brain today does not delete it from existence. I'd argue, even moreso, if one day, you and I can peer into someone's brain and watch how their "will" works in certain situations; it will still not transfer it to a materialist-only solution. Why? Because we know that complex decision systems today are created by intelligent designers. Another words, our minds can be designed by another designer. It can be Richard Dawkins little green guys from another galaxy. It simply does not matter who the creator is. What matters is can the ID theory to recognize patterns as intelligently created transfer into research. I think it does, just like Newton perceived order as a result of Design. So to, ID perceives order, for example in formerly and highly touted JunkDNA. Materialism linked to Unguided Evolutionism seeks chaos by nature, thus the heavy prediction of JunkDNA. But, just because we may understand how a lawn mower works from a spark plug to every single detail down to the 1000s of an inch blade sharpening, it does not exclude Design and only allow a materialist solution of emergence. But by rejecting "mind" or "will" outright, you David are making assumptions too. You only allow materialist dogma to rule your choices of research. This has resulted in faulty phylogenetic trees, failed TOLs, failed predictions all over the place, including Dino-Bird recently and JunkDNA. The happy middle should be neither of us know at this point. But I think Design has an upper edge on breadth of applications. Because Design can allow for random variation. We know this to be true. Whereas chaos without intelligent agency is never proven to build up any kind of intelligence. It is only an interpretation and ideas that say emergence happens to create these computers today we type on between us across complex networking systems. We have no proof, only an "assumption" inferred by materialist. In this case, Design as a Theory is as legitimate as Unguided processes or as SETI. Why is SETI along with NASA's approval allowed to be taught in university classes? Just think about the inconsistency and hypocrisy for a moment David. If we allow NASA/SETI to cooperate on classes looking for extra terrestials, then we must admit there may be alien races far more intelligent and advanced than earth today. If so, then it is valid and legitimate that ID be allowed at the table. "That’s why I referred to “mental activity” rather than “the mind.” “The mind” as immaterial object or what have you may be the conclusion of an argument, but I prefer not to make it a premise." Is this being intellectually honest? If you're truly open "minded", then you'd be willing to say, you don't know. Instead, you stand by a materialist-only dogma. You end up with your own bias. I'm not arguing to get rid of the materialist options at university levels, or for ID to take over. I'm arguing to allow ID at the table of Science based upon the objective facts that 1) we don't know which side is correct, 2) SETI is allowed and taught, 3) the only assumptions allowed today are materialist. So, by disallowing one "assumption", you are only allowing your assumption. This is being hypocritical I think if we are to be honest. And I also think it sets a bad precedent to young, developing minds that only one opinion is allowed for debate. Therefore young minds need not exercise any skepticism at all. There is only one truth, that of your side David. It makes for very boring, irrational thought patterns and failed predictions like gradualism, TOL, dino-bird, JunkDNA, etc., to name a few. If the other side of critical views were allowed at the table long ago, many of the mistakes above, the failed predictions would have been caught at a much faster pace. Researchers would've been paying much more attention to so-called "non-coded" regions. Same thing with vestigial organs, another failed prediction. All this adds up to saying, allow the minority view more room, valid room for debate, for counter opinions and theoretical teaching at higher levels. It can only help each side.DATCG
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
11:51 AM
11
11
51
AM
PDT
Lenoxus, Thanks for the reply.
The concept of objectivity contains the reason why the question “Who decides what is right or wrong?” is wrong. Nobody “decides.” Nature does not decide — it merely is; man does not decide, in issues of knowledge, he merely observes that which is.
Indeed. And the principle is verified by the clear consistency of moral opinion shared by, for example, Joseph Stalin and the Dalai Lama when each “merely observes that which is?”SteveB
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
11:39 AM
11
11
39
AM
PDT
David, Thanks for the response. The analogy I think is not just weak, it fails because unlike the mind, temperature cannot control individual switches or small groupings of related memories to be pulled up, analyzed, rejected, selected or inspected. For example, if I do a thought experiment... Yellow Tennis ball hovering in front of your eyes, spinning with the words Creation on them, you can see this in your minds eye. I can ask you to come up with your own image in turn to send back to me. You may selected a Mosaic Colored Tennis ball with fractals like a puzzle hovering from side to side, but not spinning. In each of these scenarios our mind(system if you prefer) makes decisions that interact with various subcompents of language, memory, imagery and decision logic. For example, I rejected some initial examples of tennis balls. I could just as easily said Paisely Beach Balls, bigger and more prominent in your view. Temperature as a measurement of aggregate heat mixture fails to be an analogy on multiple levels of comprehension. We know that molecules are heated by the sun, that temperature changes mainly due to sunlight/uv, shade, wind, etc. We also know that the global climate system does not act upon or select specific molecules to remember anything, let alone relay some bit of information. The analogy fails. The only analogy that will work is one of Design that current AI and robotics experts(agents of intelligence) are working on. This includes guided evolution and genetic algorithms.DATCG
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:57 AM
10
10
57
AM
PDT
And Lenoxus, Your position doesn't have any rigor. It just has a glossy narrative and the chant "anything but design". Deal with it.Joseph
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT
Transitional forms would violate the distinct categories required by nested hierarchies just by their very nature.
Huh? I’m not sure I even know what to say to this. You seem to think that because we can categorize life into groups based on their features, those categories must be “distinct” and not fluid.
Nested hierarchies require the categories be distinct. If they are fluid you don't have a nested hierarchy. IOW TRY to stay focused on the context of my comment. And thank you for proving the theory of evolution shouldn't expect a nested hierarchy.Joseph
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:52 AM
10
10
52
AM
PDT
I repeat the assertion that there are no transitional forms. We never see the gradual development of wings from a rodent to a bat in the fossil record; what would a half-way creature like that look like anyway? Why would webs between the digits convey an advantage and why would the same mutations continually occur until the animal became capable of flight? Not to mention all the attendant features that would have to evolve such as musculature, tendons, blood vessels and a host of features that would satisfy the laws of aerodynamics. Saying that a flying animal could evolve from a land animal is like saying that copying errors in the design for an automobile led to so many improvements that were implemented that eventually the manufacturers had an airplane. The websites that supposedly show a handful (or two) of transitional forms are no proof at all. If the hippopotamus was extinct and fossils of it were found that indicated it's aquatic nature, it would probably be heralded as the ancestor of the whale. 150 years of Darwinism and the best they can come up with for the sea to land transition is Tiktaalik?Davem
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:40 AM
10
10
40
AM
PDT
jerry:
When a Darwinist gets into trouble on how something happened, they have some magic incantations that they mutter that are signals to the chosen ones that all is well. When someone questions the Just So Story, the Sorcerer is alway ready. The low level spell is “it evolved.” When that doesn’t work, the next level of awe is “it was selected.” When that doesn’t work, The Sorcerer pulls out the nearly always reliable “It was exapted.”
I can't help but say that I love the "just-so story" characterization of evolutionary biology. Love it, love it, love it. Why? Because its claimants seem to think that design/creation/what-have-you is comparatively rigorous and explanatory and detailed and not pulled out of a hat at all. ID repeatedly "fulfills" its own low standard of explanation for biological complexity, then raises that standard to the level of you-need-a-time-machine when it comes to evolution. Evolution, selection, exaptation, and emergence are known physical biological phenomena, even if we don't always know when which ones have happened and to what degree. "Design", on the other hand, qualifies pretty well as an "incantation" for that list. Apparently, because IDers have one and only one spell, they aren't "desperate" the way Darwinists are. (And of course, the incantation will always "work", because any claimed design can never be disproven. If the designer wants a certain feature to occur, the odds of it occurring are always 100%.) I'm reminded of the time I attended a Behe lecture, and one slide he showed depicted an angel helping a bacterium overcoming the gaps to flagellum development; he was saying something like "Maybe the evolutionists think this is what happened!" I thought Dude, don't ridicule yourself like this! Joseph:
Transitional forms would violate the distinct categories required by nested hierarchies just by their very nature
Huh? I'm not sure I even know what to say to this. You seem to think that because we can categorize life into groups based on their features, those categories must be "distinct" and not fluid. So even if you have land animals with bone structure similar to those of fish — and hence hypothesize that they are related — it should be impossible to find a "walking fish" between the two, because fish just plain don't walk. But there really is no barrier there. It's just a matter of terminology.Lenoxus
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:40 AM
10
10
40
AM
PDT
Nakashima-san, No equivocation on my part. It is a given the evolution doesn't have a direction. Traits can be gained or shed- whatever works at the given time.
Nested hierarchies are defined by additive and immutable characters.
Thank you. And with evolution "additive and immutable" are not predictions. Things can stay the same. Whatever works. 3- Transitional forms would violate the distinct categories required by nested hierarchies just by their very nature
Crocoducks maybe, Tiktaalik no.
Is tiktaalik a transitional? We have air breathing fish in the Amazon today and they ain't transitioning to anything. But anyway the best one can expect from descent with modification is a lineage. Add divergence and you get branched lineages.Joseph
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
Mr Joseph, 1- Evolution does not have a direction 2- Nested hierarchies demand a direction of additive and immutable defining characteristics I think you are equivocating on the meaning of "direction". Time's arrow provides the direction. Nested hierarchies are defined by additive and immutable characters. 3- Transitional forms would violate the distinct categories required by nested hierarchies just by their very nature Crocoducks maybe, Tiktaalik no.Nakashima
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
140 jerry
Once upon a time….as their just so stories begin.
That reminds me of something I once read: Frog + Kiss = Prince = Fairy Tale Frog + Time = Prince = ScienceDavem
July 8, 2009
July
07
Jul
8
08
2009
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 7

Leave a Reply