Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A 30-year old letter to the editor of the Purdue Exponent

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I was a visiting assistant professor (math/CS) at Purdue University in 1978-79, when I responded to a letter in the Purdue student newspaper (the Exponent), which compared those who doubt Darwin to “flat earthers”, as follows:

“Last year I surveyed the literature on evolution in the biology library of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and found Olan Hyndman’s The Origin of Life and the Evolution of Living Things in which he calls the neo-Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection `the most irrational and illogical explanation of natural phenomenon extant’ and proposes an alternative theory; Rene Dubos’ The Torch of Life in which he says `[The neo-Darwinian theory’s] real strength is that however implausible it may appear to its opponents they do not have a more plausible one to offer in its place’; and Jean Rostand’s A Biologist’s View in which he says that the variations which made up evolution must have been `creative and not random.’ Rostand, who elsewhere has called the neo-Darwinian theory a `fairy tale for adults,’ attributes this creativeness to the genes themselves, and says `quite a number of biologists do, in fact, fall back on these hypothetical variations to explain the major steps of evolution.’…I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.”

To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? That is the only difference between Jean Rostand’s theory and the theory of intelligent design. Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”, in fact, it could be easily argued that Rostand—though an atheist–was himself an ID proponent. But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and “not science” to attribute creativeness to another part?

PostScript—in light of some comments below, let me make it clear that the issue being discussed is NOT whether or not the evidence supports any of these ideas, but whether they can be dismissed a priori as “not science”, before looking at the evidence. Darwinism is obviously a scientific theory, whether it is good science is another question. If Rostand’s theory is accepted as scientific, and housed in the biology library of a National Lab, there seems to be no reason to reject ID as “not science”, before looking at the evidence, as most scientists today still do. And if it is scientific to attribute creativity to the brain, how can it be “unscientific” to attribute creativity to the genes, as Rostand does? Whether the evidence supports Rostand’s theory is a completely separate issue.

Comments
The Placebo Effect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJ31KKXBKk Autistic Savant Stephen Wiltshire Draws the City Of Rome From Memory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTINIOO0Hccbornagain77
July 7, 2009
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dbthomas states, Since the soul, as you affirmed on another thread, cannot be measured, its existence can only ever be an assumption, forever lacking evidence.” yet contrary to many claims of evolution, the soul does in fact have ways to be witnessed: The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA37uNa3VGU Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw0lNh7NVb0 Amazing Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C5E2uDHrfA Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krUHgqfWRw4 Removing Half of Brain (Hemispherectomies) Improves Young Epileptics' Lives - article Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of the child’s memory after removal of half of the brain, either half; and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor." Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining of Johns Hopkins University The Gallup poll in 1992 was of U.S. adults, and found 5% had a NDE: .05 = (number of those surveyed with a prior history of NDE)/(total number surveyed). That equates to 15 million of a population of 300 millionbornagain77
July 7, 2009
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Clive,
There is intentional vagueness in the word “emergence” so favored by materialistic conceptions of mind.
Compared to the vagueness (intentional or no) in design, agency, CSI, FSCI, active information, irreducible complexity, etc. etc.? If the lexicon of ID were assembled it a book, it would never stop wiggling!David Kellogg
July 7, 2009
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DATCG, I misread your tone (I had brought some baggage from another thread.) My apologies.David Kellogg
July 7, 2009
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"We know emergent phenomena exist, that biology is riddled with them" It might be interesting to discuss the emergent phenomena that riddle biology. What are some of the more important ones?jerry
July 7, 2009
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Er, not exactly Clive. Notice that "if not more so"? We know emergent phenomena exist, that biology is riddled with them, and we have a myriad of tools with which to investigate the brain. I simply prefer the option which actually allows investigation over unsubstantiated assertion (which, by virtue of measurement being ruled out ahead of time, is doomed to stay unsubstantiated). To return to the temperature analogy, at one time the best we could say was "hot" or "cold" or resort to one of the comparative forms. So yes, right now precision is lacking, but we've already got plenty of thermometers and calorimeters and the like. We'll just have wait and see else turns up by putting them to good use. If the "emergence of mind" idea turns out to be like phlogiston or caloric, then so be it.dbthomas
July 7, 2009
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Mr Hayden, I strongly recommend it. It is full of interesting anecdotes, and quite short. Basically, if you are going to meet the same people over and over again, often needing their help to achieve your own goals, then it pays off to help them rather than knocking them (or their relatives) on the head for their kidneys. It even pays to be forgiving.Nakashima
July 7, 2009
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"Since the soul, as you affirmed on another thread, cannot be measured, its existence can only ever be an assumption, forever lacking evidence.”" I think Philip Johnson said that the mechanism for evolution is as mysteriously invisible as the supernatural. The above comment is rewritten: "Since the mechanism for evolution, as affirmed in every study of evolution, cannot be measured, its existence can only ever be an assumption, forever lacking evidence.” Let us make an agreement with the anti ID people here. We will agree to approach together those in charge of textbook publishing of science and the school boards in charge of science standards. We will both say that there is no scientific evidence for the soul just as there is no scientific evidence for how life evolved through the ages. We can then go out and celebrate our common efforts to uphold good science in our schools and share a beer or bread together. The anti ID will take the soul out of education and the pro ID will put truth back in it.jerry
July 7, 2009
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For those not immediately inclined to read Nakishama’s recommended ‘Evolution of Cooperation’ by Axelrod, you may be interested to know that in the introduction to the book, a certain R. Dawkins opines that “The Evolution of Cooperation deserves to replace the Gideon Bible.” Most suited to travelers and school children? Forbidden to be sold? I’ll have to explore.DG
July 7, 2009
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dbthomas, ------"You do realize that that applies equally as well (if not more so) to the unmeasurable, immaterial soul you posit. You may not like the analogies, but they at least demonstrate that emergence exists. Since the soul, as you affirmed on another thread, cannot be measured, its existence can only ever be an assumption, forever lacking evidence." You're saying that "emergence" has the same evidentail faults as the "soul." That emergence must be believed in like folks believe in a soul. I'm not sure your compatriots would like this definition very much.Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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Nakashima, You may recommend it, however, you may also speak to its contents, as I don't have time to read it.Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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Mr Hayden, If there exist no standard to compare being nice and exploiting, well, one is just as good a means for comfort as the other. Luckily, there are. May I recommend Axelrod's Evolution of Cooperation?Nakashima
July 7, 2009
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Clive @ 103:
It’s an elusive term, of which real understanding or meaning can only be got by reference to analogies like temperature, but all the analogies I’ve seen are false analogies.
You do realize that that applies equally as well (if not more so) to the unmeasurable, immaterial soul you posit. You may not like the analogies, but they at least demonstrate that emergence exists. Since the soul, as you affirmed on another thread, cannot be measured, its existence can only ever be an assumption, forever lacking evidence.dbthomas
July 7, 2009
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David said, "so do I, in the case of mental activity at least, because any reasonably comprehensive account of mental activity (note I do not say “the mind”) will be put forward at the level of system." So are you playing word games? Instead of "reasonably" accepting that a "system" can be a mind? My first thought, was how can you be "reasonablly" sure or comprehensive of anything if you a priori shut out one side of the equation? You then follow up with an analogy of a "thing"... "Temperature is a result of the kinetic energy of many millions of molecules in the thing being measured, but there’s no explanation of a thermometer result that will add those all up, or could." This analogy fails. Measuring what "thing" David. Do the molecules produce a work of art? a computer? or in current news, Thriller? The thermometer's created purpose by an intelligent designer is not to chart every molecule or add it up. It is simply a gauge to allowing thinking minds know hot or cold levels in order to prepare for a day, a week, etc., ahead in terms of specific locations, or in broader climate analysis for research. You are comparing apples to oranges. The architecture of the brain allows for Free will of choices and is influenced by languages of other minds. In fact, humans now believe their minds can control the climate globally. Are you saying molecules in the air can decide what they want to do? Or that the overall temperature as a "system" can make a decision to be cooler or hotter? Thus, carrying out your analogy to its logical conclusion. When the sun rises tomorrow in Death Valley, the "Temperature" of the "thing" can determine to remain at freezing during July? See the problem with your analogy? The brain/mind is the only free agent in the world that we know of to freely decide what, where, when, how and why it makes decisions either with concensus or against the crowd. Our minds can be like rocks or like the sand in the wind or the waves. But it is still a choice. We can use our minds to reconnect, go around, ignore, overcome past events and proceed onwards to success at the highest levels from the lowest. Can a temperature "thing" do this of its own free will? You then say, "The level of explanation is different." True, as I pointed out. Though you mean it differently. I must point out to you, one is a complex mind. The other is a measurment of heat "things". Measuring will of the mind is not the same thing as measuring temperature of Death Valley. This does nothing to explain how Will can overcome addictions. Where does "will" come from in a materialistic world? You cannot sum up will as a mixture of hot/cold molecules and assign a temperature to it. You can only see the result after Will has focused to take take actions or not take them. You can measure IQ levels, you can measure speed of 100yd dash, you can measure Indy cars, or fastballs and statistics of a pitchers FIP or ERA. But you cannot measure the Will of each individual to overcome their individual circumstances in life. It is only after they have exercised their Will, that you can measure their success/failures outcomes physically. This is the unexplainable being that we all seek to understand. We "will" top succeed in life at different levels and for different purposes, none of which are measurable by materialistic meaning. Free will also allows us to change our minds about such complex "things" as worldviews, such as the discussions we have today. If you are arguing that the molecule or the temperature change is what made me reconsider my atheist, evolutionist beliefs in the past, you will need to provide evidence, not just an analogy that fails. In the end, if SETI is allowed in University classes and is accepted by NASA and if even Richard Dawkins admits little green me may have seeded DNA in the past, then it is perfectly well that ID be allowed at the table of science. ID is merely the study of patterns to detect design. If Richard Dawkins himself admits there may be a higher, intellectual race of beings in the universe that may have seeded our beginnings, then we should be allowed to study such possible beginnings.DATCG
July 7, 2009
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102 - SteveB I like your story and I tend to agree. If we found detailed schematics for a biological organism on some storage device it would be tempting to presume that they were blueprints for a designed mechanism. I would caution though that they could equally be the results of a biologists exhaustive analysis of the creature.BillB
July 7, 2009
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Graham, "all I can say is that materialism has provided us with everything we undertand about the universe, ie: it is productive, and the supernatural hasnt given us anything, ie: its un-productive. So, which horse would you back ?" Materialism isn't material based science, but the belief that all things are material. All of empirically verified micro ev lies in the field of ID for example. Any field can use it. So I would back the horse that as yet hasn't died on the track, and there's only two horses.lamarck
July 7, 2009
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kairosfocus, ------"in the case of mind as many materialists suggest “emergence”, it is a synonym for: Poof, lucky noise, magic!" There is intentional vagueness in the word "emergence" so favored by materialistic conceptions of mind. It's an elusive term, of which real understanding or meaning can only be got by reference to analogies like temperature, but all the analogies I've seen are false analogies. It seems that they have a vague notion in mind about an immaterial property emerging from the material, to account for things that are obviously metaphysical, but consistency would dictate that all things, even metaphysical things, would physically exist in some fashion, and all that falls under the supposed umbrella of "emergence" would be physical. It seems that the word tries to suit both purposes, accounting for the metaphysical and the physical, just by being ambiguous.Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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Seversky,
The emphasis above was on the word “looks” because the whole Paleyist case rests on appearance. But looks can be deceptive. That was Dawkins’s point. We would think the watch on Paley’s heath was designed, even if we had never seen one before, because it looks like things we design. But suppose, instead of a watch, some time-traveler from the future left something like one of those “data crystals” used for information storage in TV science-fiction shows like Babylon 5 or Stargte SG-1. Imagine you were the walker on heath and stumbled across one. Would you think it was designed or just some unusual but naturally-occurring crystal?
Scene: The away-party is on an alien planet; the science officer is collecting samples. Fade in... Science Officer: Captain, I’d like to collect a sample of this unusual but naturally-occurring crystal and study it further. Captain Dawkins: Good idea Smithers; I like your scientific attitude. Later... SO: Captain, upon further study of the crystal, I have determined that it contains data--reams and reams of it. And while I’m not sure, I think I’m holding the specifications for a machine: a tiny, but very sophisticated nano-machine. CD: What do you mean Smithers? What kind of machine? SO: I don't know sir. But it produces energy, it generates and disposes of waste, it can propel itself in a liquid medium and it is self-replicating! I’ll need more time--maybe years or even lifetimes--to figure it all out, but this can’t be the result of time, chance and natural law. I think someone or something actually made it. I think it was designed.” CD: Oh come now Smithers. Designed by whom? SO: I don't know sir. I can't determine that. I can only draw a broad conclusion based on the thing's function. Long pause... Captain Dawkins: (patronizingly) Now Smithers, you know real science can't allow that kind of conclusion. You see, we know some things only appear to have been designed.... Queue the theme music. Fade out...SteveB
July 7, 2009
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A note: Re Mr Kellogg on Temperature and "emergence" vs reductionism: FYI, temperature is a metric of the average random energy per degree of freedom of the microscopic particles in a body. (The Partition Function tells the story, bridging micro and macroscopic/aggregative phenomena. For a simple case, where PV = NkT for an ideal gas, cf here.) In short, emergence in the case of temperature is analytically accountable; in the case of mind as many materialists suggest "emergence", it is a synonym for: Poof, lucky noise, magic! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 7, 2009
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David, I'll address your false assertion about my "tone" first. "DATCG, I’ll put aside the tone of your comment." I made a simple challenge. Nothing more. The "tone" you perceived was all in your "mind." Yes, this is kinda funny. I didn't expect this at all from you, because I was being serious in my questions. This is what I said, "Maybe David Kellog, et al, can begin to explain our capability to change intellectually, thoughtfully through willpower to stop one long term action(say smoking cigarrettes) and begin healthy new action of non-smoking." Please show me what you mean David by "tone" in this challenge to you. Is a mere challenge a "tone" to you? Exactly how did you read anything objectionable into that challenge for a reasonable explanation? At this point, I do want to laugh - not at you - but about this entire debate. Why is that? Why do I find absurd your objection to my "tone" as a materialist David? My asking for an explanation of "will" was without any derogatory comment. Merely challenged you and others to explain something as simple as "will" to overcome certain actions and explain them materialistically. Why so objectionable to you? May it be; that your objection is not based upon a materialistic quantity? But upon "perceived" hurt "feelings" and "emotions"? How can materialist respond with sentimental tones of higher ethics than me? If we're all material beings? Even though you entirely misread my meaning in the logical challenge to you. You now respond with a supposed "higher" tone of objection and response. Interesting, I was not aware materialist can distinuguish such thought processes of a higher "emotional" and objective mind. According to materialist-evilutionist, are we not driven by our lower evolutionary past? I jumped on your tree branch without asking? Therefore you jump to a higher one and bleat, bleat at me for leaping into your tree space? David, seriously, how can you claim a higher "tone" of civility? From a materialistic perspective? What is civil discourse and meaning to a materialist to begin with? Next, I'll respond to your actual response. But you started us down an entirely different road, mainly with a wrong interpreatation of my challenge, then a snobbish retort.DATCG
July 7, 2009
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Nakashima, ------"The materialist can maximize their comfort by being nice to others." Sure they can, or they could just as easily maximize their comfort by exploiting others. If there exist no standard to compare being nice and exploiting, well, one is just as good a means for comfort as the other. And this could be applied for any type of exploitation or any other action, all the way down, including something like organ harvesting. Does this strike you as outrageous? Why?Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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Mr DATCG, In reading your essay, the convinced materialist will simply identify 'mind' and 'will' with numbers and patterns of neurons, their connectivity, and the levels and rates of creation and degradation of various neurotransmitters. I'm not sure I understand your why educate question. Is it more like why, since everything predetermined by the material brain, or is it more like why, since I should be selfishly concerned only my own comfort? If the first, I never met anyone who thought materialism meant brains cannot change. If the second, enlightened self interest, golden rule, selfish genes, call it what you like. The materialist can maximize their comfort by being nice to others.Nakashima
July 7, 2009
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My Friend David, I feel like I know you, we've conversed so often, that is, until I read your comments over at AtBC, then it strikes me that you're wearing a mask here. ------"so do I, in the case of mental activity at least, because any reasonably comprehensive account of mental activity (note I do not say “the mind”) will be put forward at the level of system." Any reasonable account of mental activity will be put forward at the level of reason. There is a distinction to be made between mental and physical, mental means the mind, unless you're a materialist, in which case you don't make a distinction. Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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"Anyway, I’m pretty sure ID officially has nothing to say about the meaning of life, or if it does, that part of ID has nothing to do with what it wants to be, which is an accepted scientific theory." This is incorrect. ID has something to say about "meaning". ID says that “meaning” has been incontrovertibly instantiated into physical reality by means of the physically inert instructions that organize inanimate matter into living tissue.Upright BiPed
July 7, 2009
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DATCG, I'll put aside the tone of your comment and simply point out that not all materialism is reductionist. So when you write,
I think the sum is greater than its parts,
so do I, in the case of mental activity at least, because any reasonably comprehensive account of mental activity (note I do not say "the mind") will be put forward at the level of system. Temperature is a result of the kinetic energy of many millions of molecules in the thing being measured, but there's no explanation of a thermometer result that will add those all up, or could. The level of explanation is different.David Kellogg
July 7, 2009
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Lenoxus, Thanks for the post--I enjoyed reading it. A follow-up question: Who gets to define what concepts like love, beauty, morality and worth mean?SteveB
July 7, 2009
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Meanwhile, Maybe David Kellog, et al, can begin to explain our capability to change intellectually, thoughtfully through willpower to stop one long term action(say smoking cigarrettes) and begin healthy new action of non-smoking. It takes a conscious act of the mind to recognize 1) its a habit, 2) its bad for our health, 3) that action must be taken to stop. There are many more steps I can add the smoking addict may take. Some stop cold-turkey, some it takes years to stop. Whats the difference? Materialism? Or willpower? Or a little of both? What materialist action in the brain starts the will to stop such a bad habit? Anyone with experience knows that the addict must first want to stop before success can be acheived at high level. What makes up that "want" "desire" and "will" to succeed? I've seen young boys and girls come out of the worst circumstances, drug using parents, beatings, molestations, etc., to move on and become successful in life. They are the rare few, most do not make it out of the cycle of violence, ignorance and drug abuse. I've also seen the richest children, with education from what society considers "good families flounder and fall into drug abuse, sex, rape, failed lives and ultimately death. Was it materialist accidents of a single neuron that caused one to be successful or one to fizzle? Or is the mind capable of overcoming shortcomings, failed parenting, drugs, beatings, molestations, etc., to fight through the worst conditions to eventually live a good life and have a good family? I think the sum is greater than its parts. We do not yet understand our own minds enough to logically deduce how our minds overcome external stimuli that is degenerative and harmful to us. I think, just like DNA, you will find there are many areas that coordinate together how the mind thinks, wills and decides how, when and where to overcome obstacles in life, mental and physical. Intelligence and willpower cannot be summmed up in a single firing of synaptic nerve, or two, or three. It is the whole that works together in a cascade of firings which manage our actions, our thoughts and our physical being. Yet nowhere will you fine one single area responsible for our decision to quit smoking or continue smoking. It is precisely because we are created to internalize language fro external points. To learn concepts, good and bad today and determine through logic(sometimes flip a coin) what actions are best to take in our lives. Why else does both sides believe education is important? At the least, we can all agree that children deserve the best education. Why? If we are just material objects who act out on materialist actions uncontrollable by our "will," then why educate anyone? Why teach success? Why teach good, bad? Why teach children why it is good to study anything for any reason? The challenge is not for the thinker. The true challenge is for the unthinker - the materialist to find his way out of darkness. Yet such a concept of darkness cannot exist if you're a materialist.DATCG
July 7, 2009
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Off Topic: Turkish gameshow attempts to convert atheists: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/5729452/Turkish-gameshow-attempts-to-convert-atheists.html Excerpt: Those that crack will win a pilgrimage to the spiritual home of their newly chosen faith, Muslims will go to Mecca, Jews and Christians will go to Jerusalem and Buddhists will go to Tibet, the Guardian reports. According to the show's slogans, contestants will also win "serenity" and "the biggest prize ever... the belief in God".bornagain77
July 7, 2009
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PaulB, How bout, lets start with your saint; Richard Dawkins. He who said evolution gives him reason for being a fulfilled atheist. Your fearless leader who said little green men may have seeded our planet.DATCG
July 7, 2009
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Though materialists seem to think they have contributed greatly to "real science" I find over and over that Christians were always the founding pioneers of each major branch of science: Famous Medical Breakthroughs - The Christian Pioneers - video http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/medical.xml As such from consistent facts as these, and from the numerous failed predictions and blind alleys of materialism, it could almost be argued that materialistic scientists are parasitic to true science.bornagain77
July 7, 2009
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