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A Dilemma for Haldane

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Another day; another bad day for Darwinism. This is so true that I rarely post here anymore. Why bother? Darwinism is beat up everyday by its adherents doing experiments.

Here’s another one.

The team investigated the validity of Haldane’s predictions for the probability of fixation of a beneficial allele. They used C. elegans because it reproduces asexually, thus ensuring “genetic identity” from one generation to the next.

While validating Haldane’s predictions for the initial introduction of both deleterious and beneficial alleles to a population, they found this:

If its [i.e., the allele’s] frequency was higher than 5% (when more than five different individuals in a population of 100 individuals), the allele was perceived as deleterious and it started to be eliminated by natural selection. But when the frequency was less than 5%, the allele was beneficial. The result of these complex dynamics is that genetic diversity could be maintained indefinitely, without one allele or the other ever being fixed in the population.

IIRC, several years ago, in a study involving bacteria, it was found that when a bacterial population utilizing one type of sugar was place in the environment of a different type sugar, then the population switched over to the new sugar type; however, the ‘allele’ for the original sugar was never COMPLETELY eliminated from the population. Only WGA could determine this.

What these two examples suggest is that the ‘genome’ has the ability to monitor the level of use of any particular ‘allele’, and that depending on its current ‘use’, the ‘allele’ that would be ‘deleterious’ for the current environment is held at some minimal level so that should the environment change in the future, the needed ‘allele’ [then ‘beneficial’] would be ready at hand. [Which makes sense given how improbable it is to generate an allele from scratch]

To my mind, this calls the very idea of Natural Selection into question. We already know—Dawkin’s tells us this—that Natural Selection is no more than the “Grim Reaper.” Thus, NS is no more than the elimination of “unfit” alleles through “death.” But, in this scenario—backed up by the two experiments I’m speaking of—it is the population itself which determines what is ‘deleterious’, and hence eliminated via “death,” and which is ‘beneficial.’ In this case, it is the genome—very likely communicating with itself via individual genomes—that is making the “SELECTION;” NOT ‘nature.’

This is potentially devastating to Darwinian thought. But, don’t worry, you can be sure that our Darwinian ‘true-believers’ will invent some new ‘epicycle’ to explain—in their minds only—this deathblow to population genetics.

Comments
If its [i.e., the allele's] frequency was higher than 5% (when more than five different individuals in a population of 100 individuals), the allele was perceived as deleterious and it started to be eliminated by natural selection. But when the frequency was less than 5%, the allele was beneficial. The result of these complex dynamics is that genetic diversity could be maintained indefinitely, without one allele or the other ever being fixed in the population.
Unless I'm missing something, this sounds like a usual case of an evolutionary stable state, whereby a trait is beneficial only when it is present below a certain percentage of the population, and therefore tends to be fixed at that percentage. It's a major theme of Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene from 1976.goodusername
September 13, 2013
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PaV:
Darwinism is beat up everyday by its adherents doing experiments.
What's wrong with those people? I applaud the ID advocates here for avoiding such self-destructive behavior. Convenient, isnt't it?Daniel King
September 13, 2013
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Of related note to asexual populations (of bacteria) maintaining a genome over long periods of time:
The Paradox of the "Ancient" (250 Million Year Old) Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637
These following studies, by Dr. Cano on ancient bacteria, preceded Dr. Vreeland's work:
“Raul J. Cano and Monica K. Borucki discovered the bacteria preserved within the abdomens of insects encased in pieces of amber. In the last 4 years, they have revived more than 1,000 types of bacteria and microorganisms — some dating back as far as 135 million years ago, during the age of the dinosaurs.,,, In October 2000, another research group used many of the techniques developed by Cano’s lab to revive 250-million-year-old bacteria from spores trapped in salt crystals. With this additional evidence, it now seems that the “impossible” is true.” http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=281961
Dr. Cano had found 'slight but significant' differences between ancient and modern bacteria:
Revival and identification of bacterial spores in 25- to 40-million-year-old Dominican amber Dr. Cano and his former graduate student Dr. Monica K. Borucki said that they had found slight but significant differences between the DNA of the ancient, 25-40 million year old amber-sealed Bacillus sphaericus and that of its modern counterpart, (thus ruling out that the change is a modern contaminant, yet at the same time confounding materialists, since the change to the genome is not nearly as great as evolution's 'genetic drift' theory requires.) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/268/5213/1060
Out of curiosity, I e-mailed both Dr. Vreeland and Dr. Cano to ask them if either of them had performed a 'fitness test' between the ancient and modern bacteria, since I knew that the 'fitness test' performed between antibiotic resistant bacteria and normal bacteria had never been violated,,,
Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 Thank Goodness the NCSE Is Wrong: Fitness Costs Are Important to Evolutionary Microbiology Excerpt: it (an antibiotic resistant bacterium) reproduces slower than it did before it was changed. This effect is widely recognized, and is called the fitness cost of antibiotic resistance. It is the existence of these costs and other examples of the limits of evolution that call into question the neo-Darwinian story of macroevolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/thank_goodness_the_ncse_is_wro.html
Dr. Vreeland wrote me back and said that 'only a creationist would ask such a question'! He then lectured me for a couple of paragraphs on how well established evolution was as a scientific theory whilst never telling me whether he had performed the fitness test or not. Dr. Cano, on the other hand, was far more forthright with me and stated in response to my question as to if he had performed a 'fitness test' between the ancient bacteria and the modern bacteria:
"We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate." - Dr. RJ Cano commenting on 'fitness test' which compared ancient bacteria almost identical modern bacteria
Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to 'revive' does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy, a slight loss of functional information/complexity for the bacteria over extremely long periods of time, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. A few assorted supplemental notes:
Learning from Bacteria about Social Networks - video Description: Bacteria do not store genetically all the information required to respond efficiently to all possible environmental conditions. Instead, to solve new encountered problems (challenges) posed by the environment, they first assess the problem via collective sensing, then recall stored information of past experience and finally execute distributed information processing of the 109-12 bacteria in the colony,,, I will show illuminating movies of swarming intelligence of live bacteria in which they solve optimization problems for collective decision making that are beyond what we, human beings, can solve with our most powerful computers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJpi8SnFXHs Biophoton Communication: Can Cells Talk Using Light? - May 2012 Excerpt: The question he aims to answer is whether the stream of photons has any discernible structure that would qualify it as a form of communication.,, Biophoton streams consist of short quasiperiodic bursts, which he says are remarkably similar to those used to send binary data over a noisy channel. That might help explain how cells can detect such low levels of radiation in a noisy environment. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427982/biophoton-communication-can-cells-talk-using/ Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies (35 years of trying to force fruit flies to evolve in the laboratory fails, spectacularly) - October 2010 Excerpt: "Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.,,, "This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve," said ecology and evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/10/07/experimental_evolution_in_fruit_flies
Verse and Music:
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. LECRAE-IT'S YOUR WORLD - song Excerpt of Lyrics - He uses intelligent design Like eloquence confined Life elements assigned by Elohim my God He left his fingerprints You thinking that our origins are coincidence Our symmetry alone makes Evolution look ridiculous And since our complexity is more than irreducible The fact our design had a designer is irrefutable I use science too to make a statement like this The existence of an atheist proves God exists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS5fYvyy5Y8
bornagain77
September 13, 2013
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So it reaches homeostasis, below fixation. Exactly the same is happening here. It’s a beautiful example of optimising evolution in action, not problem for it.
But evolution it is not homestasis is changing.
What’s interesting about this experiment is that (Darwinian) selection is acting to maintain diversity that would usually be lost by drift (or by directional selection)
But selection is not about chosing the best fit not keeping all?Chesterton
September 13, 2013
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I found this amusing, as it relates to Haldane: Bible translator Ronald Knox was once engaged in a theological discussion with scientist John Scott Haldane. “In a universe containing millions of planets,” reasoned Haldane, “is it not inevitable that life should appear on at least one of them?” “Sir,” replied Knox, “if Scotland Yard found a body in your cabin trunk, would you tell them: ‘There are millions of trunks in the world—surely one of them must contain a body?’ I think they would still want to know who put it there.”—The Little, Brown Book of Anecdotes.Barb
September 13, 2013
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What was a hilarious, if highly predictable, response of the disaffected, teenage-atheist types, who normally delight in 'group' sneering at religious believers, was palpable shock, immediately falling back on theodicy, a la Nick Madzke. Never mind the science!Axel
September 13, 2013
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'But nobody ever proposes a testable i.e. a predictive Design model.' Well, Elizabeth, at the link to a site listing the opinions of many very eminent theist scientists, which I posted on UD, yesterday, one of the contributors, whose name I forget now, has stated that atheism is virtually history, since modern science has rendered theism an experimental science. I'll dig it up tomorrow, if this thread is still visible. I'll also be posting some devastating comments by Nobel prize winners concerning atheism. Maxwell said you have to be an imbecile to be one, so you'd better sharpen up. Proof of theism is of course, proof of design. You materialists have no way of explaining the non-locality of photons, do you? And so little to say about it. I suggested the other day that asking for proof of Design is like asking a fish to prove it lives in water. I see that Von Braun compared asking for proof of Design with wanting to hold up a candle to look at the sun.Axel
September 13, 2013
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As drift is at least a key factor for darwinian evolution, not to be easily demostrable open some questions. Drift is not Darwinian, and the fixation of alleles by drift is easily demonstrable (in fact, it's an inevitable consequence of non-infinite populations). What's interesting about this experiment is that (Darwinian) selection is acting to maintain diversity that would usually be lost by drift (or by directional selection). As Elizabeth says, it's a nice example of the way in which natural selection can maintain genetic diversity.wd400
September 13, 2013
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Lots of alleles never fix, especially in a large population. That's how diversity is maintained. And sometimes, their is selection for a proportion in the population, as with sickle cell. If the sickle cell allele gets too prevalent, too many people get sickle cell anaemia, die, early, and alleles are lost. But when the prevalence drops, too few people get the protective sickle cell trait, and the number climbs again. So it reaches homeostasis, below fixation. Exactly the same is happening here. It's a beautiful example of optimising evolution in action, not problem for it.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 13, 2013
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Well Elizabeth that paper couldn´t show fixation of new alleles. As drift is at least a key factor for darwinian evolution, not to be easily demostrable open some questions.Chesterton
September 13, 2013
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That sounds more like a version of ID: if we can eliminate all natural causes we can conclude Design. That's essentially Dembski's position. It's not a sound methodology. We could conclude Design if a someone proposed a testable Design model and it fitted the data better than a non-Design model. But nobody ever proposes a testable i.e. a predictive Design model.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 13, 2013
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Some have openly admitted on this blog that all natural causes must be eliminated as possibilities before they would accept design as an option. That's quite the gap-filler and, no doubt, adequate protection for their position from any and all evidence.Phinehas
September 13, 2013
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Dear me, frequency dependant selection is not a new discovery.wd400
September 13, 2013
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PaV, absolutely nothing in that paper poses any problem for evolutionary theory at all! It's a very elegant paper, and it demonstrates empirically a very important evolutionary principle. Evolutionary theory is about reproductive success in the current environment. That environment includes other populations in the habitat, as well as your own. What is beneficial or deleterious in one environment may or may not be in a different environment. If the environment changes (is "dynamic") as the article says, then alleles will fluctuate as to whether they are deleterious, advantageous or neutral. This is exactly why crude models of population genetics don't work - the allele frequency itself alters the environment that determines the selection coefficient of the allele. It's not "Darwinian evolution" that is "a completely fabricated mishmash of tales and fables" - the "completely fabricated mishmash of tales and fables" are the tales told by ID proponents about Darwinian evolution!Elizabeth B Liddle
September 13, 2013
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Unlike other discarded theorems and paradigms, and I think “global warming/climate change” is headed toward oblivion, there is too much at stake from a philosophical and religious viewpoint for Darwinism to just disappear.
And there is the essential truth of the matter. Actual science, arguments, reason and evidence don't matter all that much when it comes to many aspects of modern evolutionary theory, precisely because of what's at stake philosophically, politically, and religiously. There is a silver lining: while the theory may not change, respect for 'scientific consensus' probably will go further and further into the toilet. I personally won't worry too much if Darwinism remains the sacred cow of certain academics - if the cost of their vigilance is the loss of their reputation among the general public.nullasalus
September 13, 2013
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As much as I see Darwinian evolution as a completely fabricated mishmash of tales and fables, I do not see it being eliminated..EVER. Unlike other discarded theorems and paradigms, and I think "global warming/climate change" is headed toward oblivion, there is too much at stake from a philosophical and religious viewpoint for Darwinism to just disappear. It may be possibly displaced by another yet-unknown theory of life, but it will not surrender to a design-based ideal.OldArmy94
September 13, 2013
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The wheels of history may grind slow, but they grind fine. With Darwinism just like Ptolemaic astronomy (emphasis added)...
Eventually, perfectly concentric spheres were abandoned as it wasn't possible to develop a sufficiently accurate model under that ideal. However, while providing for similar explanations, the later deferent and epicycle model proved to be flexible enough to accommodate observations for many centuries.
Except that, with the acceleration of discovery in the modern world, I'd give NDE's ever-more-unlikely just-so stories a decade at most this side of the dustbin.jstanley01
September 13, 2013
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