Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
Anyone who states that language arose without the input of intelligent agents is either a liar or a fool.Box
March 26, 2015
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Silver Asiatic,
Through individual, purposeful, design choices, the two languages merged. The global structure is the product of design.
Those individual choices were not purposeful and did not result in any kind of "design". It wasn't the purpose of Gallo-Latin speakers and the Franks to merge their languages. It was the uncontrolled outcome of their interaction, presumably not quite welcome to the Franks, who lost their separate linguistic identity altogether and became absorbed into the Romance-speaking majority. All that remains of Frankish today is a layer of Germanic loanwords in Modern French. Likewise, the Anglo-Norman elite in England switched to English despite their best efforts to remain linguistically distinct (they employed French tutors for their children to prevent them from growing up as English-speakers). And Anglo-Norman French was the more prestigious language of the two. The only real strength of English was in numbers: it had a much wider population basis. It was strongly affected by language contact ("horizontal transfer"): hundreds of Anglo-Saxon words, even in the basic vocabulary, were replaced by loans from French, and the morphosyntactic system became dramatically restructured, but English survived. It was all spontaneous. Nobody had plans to eliminate French and transform English almost beyond recognition. Irish Gaelic was marginalised by English in its own homeland during the 19th century. It wasn't linguistic design that did for it but the low socioeconomic status of its users combined with extremely bad luck (the Great Famine). Enough to drive a formerly flourishing language to the brink of extinction. The Irish never wanted it to happen, and of course hadn't planned the decline of their own mother tongue. As we correct schoolchildren's "grammatical errors" or "mispronunciations", we are actually trying to prevent them from being little linguistic engineers making the structure of their language more transparent. "Why do I have to say mice and not mouses?" -- "Uh... well... BECAUSE. Because you have to speak correct English like your mum and dad, and mice is CORRECT." (Of course adults never know WHY their language is the way it is and WHY mouse has an irregular plural.) This is active anti-design, social selection against innovations. You are now using the word "design" for what Dawkins would term "the appearance of design", resulting from a great number of local activities and interactions. In other words, design without a central plan, without a pre-specified target, and without a designer who controls the whole thing. Such "design" is of course common both in nature and in human culture, but "self-organisation" is a more accurate term for it.Piotr
March 26, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: I observe that language is complex, it driives functions and is highly specified for meaning. I infer design – no need for the double quotes. No one doubts that the use of language is intelligent. The question concerns whether its global structure was designed. Silver Asiatic: The global structure is the product of countless intelligent acts. Some were intelligent, and some were unconscious, such as the Great Vowel Shift. In either case, the global structure was not designed, but the result of all these individual actions taken for parochial purposes. Silver Asiatic: Through individual, purposeful, design choices, the two languages merged. The global structure is the product of design. The new language wasn't created on purpose. It was the result of slow changes over a long period of time. Linguists refer to the history of language evolution. Languages are still evolving today without regard to its global structure. Silver Asiatic: Termite mounds show evidence of having been designed. We can show that the patterns found in termite mounds are the result of simple activities of the individual insects, but that the individual insects have no conception of the global pattern. Silver Asiatic: The monks invented the new letter and it was consciously used to communicate meaning. No. They invented a swash for making the letter-i. It didn't become a distinct letter until later.Zachriel
March 26, 2015
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The monks invented the new letter and it was consciously used to communicate meaning.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2015
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Zach
Then your “inference” is wrong.
I observe that language is complex, it driives functions and is highly specified for meaning. I infer design - no need for the double quotes.
The global structure is not designed. The monks didn’t mean to invent a new letter.
The global structure is the product of countless intelligent acts. A blind, unintelligent process cannot create languages. Languages are designed to be used by intelligent agents for an intellectual process (sending, listening, interpreting, responding to symbols).
No one meant to wed the Frankish and Latin languages.
Through individual, purposeful, design choices, the two languages merged. The global structure is the product of design.
The global pattern is not designed by termites, but a result of individual activities.
Termite mounds show evidence of having been designed. If you agree with that and yet you don't know who designed them, then that should put to rest that common criticism of ID. Termite mounds are the product of coordinated, purposeful activity. They don't arise randomly or through any physical law. If you don't think termite mounds show evidence of having been designed, then that's a different conversation. We normally can tell the difference in organizational complexity and function between a termite mound and a rock, for example.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2015
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And not querious chimes in with its usual substance-free drivel.Joe
March 26, 2015
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Zachriel is still confused:
The global structure is not designed. The monks didn’t mean to invent a new letter.
Monks are intelligent agencies and they did invent a new letter. Zachriel has no idea if intent was there or not.Joe
March 26, 2015
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F/N: I notice, how after boldly demanding non-testimonial evidence and being pointed to the implications of ontological analysis -- cf 207 above, AS has gone silent; and the thread has gone everywhere else but discuss that, which is in fact pivotal. Interesting. KF PS: NQ has proved himself the troll. Don't feed da trolls.kairosfocus
March 26, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: The global structure is an information network with symbols which convey meaning. We infer that all languages, therefore, are the products of intelligent design because there’s no evidence to show that they can be created randomly or deterministically, and we know that intelligence can design specific languages (Morse Code). Then your "inference" is wrong. The global structure is not designed. The monks didn't mean to invent a new letter. The English didn't mean to shift their vowels. No one meant to wed the Frankish and Latin languages. Silver Asiatic: Grammar, spelling, definitions and pronunciation are debated and agreed-upon. Not usually through human history, and then often contrary to the normal evolution of languages. Silver Asiatic: A termite’s mound is clear evidence of something designed. The global pattern is not designed by termites, but a result of individual activities.Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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Piotr
Not everything that an intelligent agent does is designed
True, but a specific set of symbols used to communicate meaning is an example of a purposeful system. It's created, shaped and developed by an intelligent process -- where choices over time create meaning and rules. Grammar, spelling, definitions and pronunciation are debated and agreed-upon. These things are not the product of random chance. There are no physical or chemical laws that determine that 'dog' should equal le chien in French or canis in Latin. There is no empirical evidence to show that a word should mean what it does. That is all developed through intelligent processes.
Children are exposed to the linguistic performance of people around them, and they naturally acquire their first language, usually with more success than an adult learning a foreing language consciously.
That's strong evidence against materialism. What is this this 'natural acquisition' of language? What is its origin? We can ask the same thing of education itself.
They don’t have to know anything about tenses, moods, cases and parts of speech. We don’t “design” our pronunciation.
Any adult learner of a new language needs to design his or her pronunciation. It's an intelligent process. For children, it's the process of education - listening, repeating and practicing. The language process and education itself show evidence of having been designed for a purpose. There is no reason for chemical compounds to learn anything. Chemicals do what they've done for billions of years - no education is required.
Most people have no idea how they articulate a given consonant, or how many vowels their dialect has.
You spoke about children and every educator knows that children have to be corrected in their pronunciation. It's an intelligently designed process. Once the child becomes proficient, there's no reason to question how you articulate consonants. But again, try a new language and you have to become aware of how you pronounce words.
If changes affecting a language result from things done independly and usualy unconsciously by millions of speakers, connected by a network of communicative interactions but without any overall control, calling it “design” makes little sense to me.
It's the literate part of society that establishes design rules within the language -- and written communications offers the widest range of vocabulary and styles. If most people are unconscious of language, it's because they're speaking from a limited educational perspective. There are many dialects and accents and adjustments in word forms in different languages -- but they will fade away unless they're captured and fostered in the written word. We see that in the U.S. where southern regional dialects - especially for African Americans are fading away and becoming more normalized, because there there is very little written in that style. Television plays a huge role also -- and the language used there is very much controlled and designed, including the accent TV broadcasters are told to use (American midwest).
It’s designed the way termites “design” their mounds.
A termite's mound is clear evidence of something designed. That's how we tell the difference between a termite's mound and a randomly assembled pile of dirt. A beaver dam is designed by animal intelligence. It is different from a pile of logs that randomly collected in a stream. That's the design inference you're talking about. Language is evidence something that was designed by intelligence - and not a random assemblage.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2015
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Piotr, you are wasting your time trying to have an honest discussion with Joe or Barry or Gordon (don't expose me as Kairosfocus) Mullings. They are not interested. Several of the others are worth talking to. Not because you will change their minds, but because they actually can have a discussion without insults and condescension. And they often have things to contribute.not_querius
March 25, 2015
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The global structure wasn’t designed.
The global structure is an information network with symbols which convey meaning. We infer that all languages, therefore, are the products of intelligent design because there's no evidence to show that they can be created randomly or deterministically, and we know that intelligence can design specific languages (Morse Code).Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2015
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Piotr:
Not everything that an intelligent agent does is designed
True, accidents do happen
Children are exposed to the linguistic performance of people around them, and they naturally acquire their first language,
Children are exposed to the linguistic performance of people around them, and they artificially acquire their first language, And termites do design their mounds. Do you think it's just an accident that they are engineering marvels?Joe
March 25, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: The example you gave is a purposeful, design-change within the language. The intention may not have been to change the structure or that there was a conscious decision for that kind of modification – but the decision to invent the letter was done through intelligence. That's right. The global structure wasn't designed.Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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We’re talking about designing a language in general.
Not everything that an intelligent agent does is designed (unless you are prepared to dilute the meaning of "design" homeopathetically). Children are exposed to the linguistic performance of people around them, and they naturally acquire their first language, usually with more success than an adult learning a foreing language consciously. They don't have to know anything about tenses, moods, cases and parts of speech. We don't "design" our pronunciation. Most people have no idea how they articulate a given consonant, or how many vowels their dialect has. Most sound changes result from things like articulatory overlap between neighbouring speech segments, without any conscious control. If changes affecting a language result from things done independly and usualy unconsciously by millions of speakers, connected by a network of communicative interactions but without any overall control, calling it "design" makes little sense to me. It's designed the way termites "design" their mounds.Piotr
March 25, 2015
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vel:
all living organisms respond to stimulation?
That is one of the characteristics of a living organism. Not all have to respond to all stimuli- that's a no black swans fallacy. 7 characteristics of life: 4. Living Things Respond To Their Environment: Living things will make changes in response to a stimulus in their environment. A behavior is a complex set of responses.Joe
March 25, 2015
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Joe: The definition of a living organism- ie the ability to respond to external stimulation. all living organisms respond to stimulation?velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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Z The example you gave is a purposeful, design-change within the language. The intention may not have been to change the structure or that there was a conscious decision for that kind of modification - but the decision to invent the letter was done through intelligence. The later, more frequent use of the letter was through intelligent choices also. The fact that j became part of the language later could have had some accidental influences, but the process was shaped by intelligent design. Multiple intelligences working over a period of time.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2015
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Piotr:
Is that why it took several hundred years to reach completion?
Yes, due to other intelligent agencies resisting the change.Joe
March 25, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: Neologisms are often directly attributable to a specific person … Language usually changes due to local adaptions without regard to its global structure. So monks invented the j to make the double-i more readable. It solved a specific problem, but without regard to the global structure of the language.Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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The use and development of language is a process formed by intelligence. Even if changes take many years, they're the result of intelligent choices by the people who use the language. There are various influences on those choices that make some words more popular than others. But there are also gatekeepers for the language -- like dictionary editors, who accept or reject new words and usages.
Coining a word and designing a language system are two different things.
We're talking about designing a language in general. Coining words is a part of that process. The rules of syntax and grammar are another part. The entire process is intelligently designed - as software languages are designed.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2015
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PEOPLE caused the shift to happen It was an INTELLIGENT decision.
Is that why it took several hundred years to reach completion?Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Neologisms are often directly attributable to a specific person …
It's often true of technical jargon, but generally not true of popular vocabulary and colloquial slang. Many of the words listed in the Wikipedia article are old items with an extended meaning (troll, for example). Others are attested before the date given there (e.g. meritocracy already existed in 1956; the Oxford English Dictionary has a citation from that year). Friend has sporadically been used as a verb since the 13th century (by Malory and Shakespeare, among others). P.S. Coining a word and designing a language system are two different things.Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Piotr:
The shift took place at a time when English was a well-developed literary language.
PEOPLE caused the shift to happen It was an INTELLIGENT decision.
Please, identify the “someone” who “obviously did”.
The short guy with a bald spot. He's dead now.Joe
March 25, 2015
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#255
Obviously someone did
The shift took place at a time when English was a well-developed literary language. There are lots of texts attesting the use of both forms. Please, identify the "someone" who "obviously did".Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Piotr:
Nobody decided that he cometh should be replaced by he comes.
Obviously someone did
Do you call such things “design”?
If intelligent agencies had a hand in it, yes.Joe
March 25, 2015
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New words are intelligently designed all the time. Neologisms are often directly attributable to a specific person ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeologismSilver Asiatic
March 25, 2015
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Every word (or a word ancestral to it) was coined by someone at some time in the past. Some may have been coined more than once, independently, by different people. The coiners are almost always anonymous. They may not even have been aware that they had contributed an innovation. Anyway, English has tens of thousands of general-currency words (not to count technical jargon), and having coined one of them (even if it doesn't go out of use quickly) is hardly a big feat. A language belongs to the whole speech community it serves, not to individual users. No particular person "designs" it. Whatever design is visible is the collective product of processes taking place mostly below the level of individual awareness. The complex English tenses like the present continuous (I am working), the present perfect (I have worked), or the future (I shall/will work) did not yet exist in early Old English, though the language had some gramatical constructions which can be regarded as their precursors. They later became reanalysed and co-opted as verb tenses, changing their function. Constructions like I'm going to work are still more recent. The original interpretation of I'm going to was literal: 'I'm on my way to do something'. It's going to rain would have been absurd at that time. No person "invented" any of these constructions or controlled their development. They emerged slowly over centuries when ambiguous or "promiscuous" constructions were reinterpreted by new generations of speakers, completely unaware of what they were doing. They appeared independently of one another, in different parts of the English-speaking population. Language change is the sum of innumerable parallel processes, not one grand act of innovative design. Nobody decided that he cometh should be replaced by he comes. The younger form coexisted with the older for several centuries, gradually becoming more common and gaining social prestige, first in some regional dialects, then in others. Nobody "designed" a new pronuciation for postvocalic /r/ in standard British English -- "kahd" for card. It started popping up in and round London after 1700 and did not become fashionable until a century later. For most of the 18th century grammarians regarded it as a sloppy vulgar corruption and insisted that all r's should be clearly pronounced. Do you call such things "design"?Piotr
March 25, 2015
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vel:
Any specific scientific evidence to support your claim?
The definition of a living organism- ie the ability to respond to external stimulation.Joe
March 25, 2015
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not_querious:
Joe, we were using the word “kakked” when I was at college.
Sure you were.
And since I am much older than you, and from a different country, I think that we can put your claim to rest.
Well we used it without any knowledge of it. And we spread its use throughout this country.Joe
March 25, 2015
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