Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
Joe: Science isn’t about proof. And the evidence organisms are intelligently designed has been presented Maybe but you made a specific claim: Animals react to noises. They were intelligently designed to do so. Any specific scientific evidence to support your claim?velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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Joe, we were using the word "kakked" when I was at college. And since I am much older than you, and from a different country, I think that we can put your claim to rest.not_querius
March 25, 2015
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Piotr, I am pretty sure myself and college roommates formed a new word that is used today- "kak"- "kakked"- some use kack and kacked- It is the noise made when a component blew - A system that is kakked is broken.Joe
March 25, 2015
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vel:
Then prove animals were intelligently designed to communicate without those parameters .Scientifically.
Science isn't about proof. And the evidence organisms are intelligently designed has been presented. Your position could counter but it is limp and can't. Did you have a point?Joe
March 25, 2015
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Piotr, Please, tell us what your proposal has to do with what I said. If my design is is not accepted it is due to intelligent agencies rejecting it.Joe
March 25, 2015
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#237 Joe, Please, design a new tense or a new set of personal endings for English, or a brand-new accent unlike anything heard before. Then let's see how other English-speaking people will react to your innovations and whether they'll adopt them. Hey, d'you know what? Let's make English more rational and more learnable by replacing all irregular forms by regular ones: I taked my childs to the zoo. We seed an old lion that haved losed its tooths.Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Joe: Science doesn’t require those to be answered before we can determine intelligent design is present. Then prove animals were intelligently designed to communicate without those parameters .Scientifically.velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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How? When? By whom?
Science doesn't require those to be answered before we can determine intelligent design is present. But then again the anti-ID mob doesn't seem to be able to grasp science.Joe
March 25, 2015
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How? When? By whom? Let's see if communication is possiblevelikovskys
March 25, 2015
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Animals react to noises.
They were intelligently designed to do so.Joe
March 25, 2015
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Andre: So what are you trying to say? If there was no decoder it would be meaningless what is your point out with it. Animals react to noises. A bark is a noise. It could start as a simple reaction, and evolve into a simple symbol. Bark! Bark! means Look! Look!Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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vel:
What would those prerequisites be for human language?
Humans, ie intelligent agencies.Joe
March 25, 2015
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Andre: I suspect that you don’t actually understand the problem any code is useless without some very specific prerequisites at the hardware level. If they are not in the exact layout and order of sequence there is no communications at all. What would those prerequisites be for human language?velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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Piotr, Unguided evolution did not produce modern languages. Languages evolved via intelligent design.Joe
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel So what are you trying to say? If there was no decoder it would be meaningless what is your point out with it.Andre
March 25, 2015
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Andre: It is an IC system all the way. What good is a mating call without any of the communication critical parts in place? An undifferentiated dog bark will make you look up to see either predatory or prey.Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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Poitr I suspect that you don't actually understand the problem any code is useless without some very specific prerequisites at the hardware level. If they are not in the exact layout and order of sequence there is no communications at all.Andre
March 25, 2015
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Piotr, nope, I am speaking of origin of digital (discrete state) computer code, here encoded in prong height using molecular nanotech in D/RNA strings; 4-state per digit is no different in principle from 2, 10 or 60. Which, has been headlined for decades. Code that is used in algorithms, with execution machinery -- also, molecular nanotech. Codes, algorithms, and more. Where do/can such come from? Why is blind needle in haystack search even entertained? KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2015
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Poitr Go back as far as you like. You are welcome to start right there if you like. Show us how chemical reactions organizational themselves to build IC communication systems all by themselves. If you hold this position then yr chemical signals are broken. These systems cannot build themselves no matter what.Andre
March 25, 2015
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Shall we go back to chemical signals a few billion years ago? I thought you asked about the origin of human language, not about communication in general. You're shifting the goalposts now.Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Poitr Now you're just being daft. Even if animal communication is older than human language it is still the same system. Input, encoder, medium, decoder, output and feedback. It is an IC system all the way. What good is a mating call without any of the communication critical parts in place?Andre
March 25, 2015
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Silver It is absurd to even think that such a system is capable of building itself. Any materialist that contemplates it as possibly true is not acting in a way that is consistent with this universe.Andre
March 25, 2015
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#223 Andre,
When you say speech developed millennia ago do you mean that it emerged? How does something that can’t work if a single piece is not in place develop?
What? Animal communication had existed for many million years before the appearance of language. Language did not evolve in a vacuum. Animals (especially social species) also encode, send, receive and decode signals, and we humans also use non-linguistic and paralinguistic channels of information much more often than most of us realise. Our linguistic codes (and the associated mental representations) are more complex than other forms of communication, but the sender/medium/receiver system is hundreds of millions years old, and we share it with other animals.
All these systems with redundancy,haphazardly assembled itself over millennia of time?
"Evolve" does not mean "assemble itself haphazardly". There are numerous scenarios for the origin of language. The problem is that they remain speculative for lack of direct evidence, so it's hard to choose between possibilities. Anyway, even some animals have vocal communication with rudiments of morphosyntax.
I can say this with confidence, your are an ignoramus.
Whatever. I don't care what you "can say".Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Andre
No encoder no comms, no decoder no comms, no input no comms, no output no comms, no medium no comms if any single piece of this IC system is unavailable the system breaks down and fails….
From my research I've never found an evolutionary explanation for the origin of language-communication. It's not just "we don't know the details" - it's a problem even trying to explain the concept. There has to be an intent to communicate meaning and also a feedback-loop from receiver so sender knows that meaning was correctly received and decoded. Evolution has no explanation for that necessary intent - except that it supposedly enhances survival/reproduction. Language communication requires some freedom - to choose from a symbol set, at specific times, to an audience - for a reason. If it is done by chance or by a deterministic cause, there's no choice of symbols and no meaning or intention involved.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2015
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Andre: So can you please give us a model of how such a process as speech could have come about by a small incremental, random and unguided way? Do you think dogs can distinguish different barks? Can people learn language without already knowing language?Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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RB Except you're not a fly because you don't know what its like to be one!Andre
March 25, 2015
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KF:
PPS: While I am at it, the song of innocence that matches Tyger, tyger . . .
But don't forget this, from Songs of Experience: The Fly By William Blake Little Fly Thy summer's play, My thoughtless hand Has brush'd away. Am not I A fly like thee? Or art not thou A man like me? For I dance And drink & sing; Till some blind hand Shall brush my wing. If thought is life And strength & breath; And the want Of thought is death; Then am I A happy fly, If I live, Or if I die.Reciprocating Bill
March 25, 2015
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Piotr When you say speech developed millennia ago do you mean that it emerged? How does something that can't work if a single piece is not in place develop? No encoder no comms, no decoder no comms, no input no comms, no output no comms, no medium no comms if any single piece of this IC system is unavailable the system breaks down and fails.... Don't believe me? Ask one of your students to talk to you while you have your back turned to them and your ears are blocked..... (Did it work?) An experiment with proof how critical a single component is. When the receiver is broken the system fails. Sure you can say hey we can read lips! Of course we can we have a visual encoder/decoder system as well and these systems are even integrated! So now you're screwed because you can't explain a single component of this messaging system and now your confronted with at least 2 such systems working in tandem as backups when one fails.... In engineering we call this redundancy..... All these systems with redundancy,haphazardly assembled itself over millennia of time? I can say this with confidence, your are an ignoramus.Andre
March 25, 2015
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Piotr Homo Ergaster was homo sapiens, have you been missing the literature that human evolution needs a rewrite?Andre
March 25, 2015
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Pitor You accuse me of that that you are guilty of........
None of it gives any validity to arguments from ignorance (there’s no data, therefore evolutiondidit)
Fixed it for you.... You have nothing you don't even know how a simple cell came about so an entire communication system with inputs, outputs, receivers, encoders decoders.... what do you have? Nothing? What the evidence actually shows is this....... Humans are much younger than we think, and even I'm scared of that idea.Andre
March 25, 2015
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