Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
Piotr, start with the presence of code, thus language and algorithms, in D/RNA. Kindly provide a good, empirically, observationally anchored account of how codes, algorithms and linked language used to implement step by step processes arises from blind needle in haystack search in Darwin's pond or the like environment. Where, we have a vast, easily accessible body of experience and analysis of the origin of such. Design, i.e. intelligently directed configuration -- and that is an appeal to empirically and analytically grounded knowledge not ignorance and your god of gaps loaded strawman caricature just now. Refusal to acknowledge and face evidence, again duly noted. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2015
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Piotr You are just being dishonest now...... I'm not saying God did it I'm saying to you..... how does a communication system with information, encoder, medium, decoder, output come about by a haphazard happy go lucky chance process? Do you honestly believe it is even possible? If you claim its done that way then show how its done that way...... no more no less. If you can't then it means you have nothing and your entire hope that it could be so rests on blind faith.Andre
March 25, 2015
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"We don't know the details" but we "know" unguided evolution didit.Joe
March 25, 2015
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Andre, We don't know the details. Speech developed hundreds of millennia ago. I would argue that some sort of spoken communication (presumably less developed than human language as we know it) was already used by Homo ergaster. On the other hand, the oldest documented languages (such as Old Egyptian and Sumerian) are known from barely mote than 5000 years ago, which means that the direct historical evidence of language history is just the tip of the tip of a huge iceberg, mostly hidden from sight. None of it gives any validity to arguments from ignorance (there's no data, therefore goddidit).Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Piotr, I repeat; never get into a mud wrestling match with a pig, & especially not in a fever swamp. If you are interested in substance, there is something on the table since yesterday at 191, and outlined today at 207. If you are looking for running away from a fair substantial challenge, that evasion manifested via resort to red herrings, strawmen and ad hominems seen above from denizens of said fever swamps, speaks volumes. As does enabling behaviour. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2015
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Mark Frank I can't help but wonder how do you live with yourself? I need not enquire if God will one day punish you for your intellectual laziness, you'll punish yourself...... You say;
What would count as evidence would be repeatable perception of God. If this happened then he/she/it becomes a plausible explanation for some of these phenomena.
So all those people that have a repeatable perception of God is discounted from having to give any evidence because they must be crazy? Is that right?Andre
March 25, 2015
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Piotr You are a professor of Linguistics right? So can you please give us a model of how such a process as speech could have come about by a small incremental, random and unguided way? http://www.ovari.biz/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/121022-Communication.jpg I would be most impressed and even more convinced if you could spell out and show with something testable how such a system came together haphazardly. Your expertise thoughtful knowledge are awaited with great anticipation.Andre
March 25, 2015
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Piotr, What is there to discuss? We have already established that your position has nothing, not even a testable hypothesis. It can't be modeled. It can't be tested, so what is there to discuss? That ballad of Sir Robin fits evos to a tee. Now run away and pretend that you understand nested hierarchiesJoe
March 25, 2015
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Mark Frank You're deflecting, nobody said anything about the Christian God..... What's up with this unhealthy obsession the average materialist has with the Christian God anyway? The question is does the following count as evidence for a creator? 1.) Information and Language 2.) Beginning of the universe 3.) Cause and Effect 4.) Design and Purpose 5.) Natural Laws 6.) Logic & Reason 7.) Human Conscience 8.) Fine Tuning 9.) Human yearning for Justice (good and evil) 10.) The uniqueness of planet earth in the cosmos Mark I'm not asking for proof..... you are looking for that, I'm asking does the above 10 points count as evidence?Andre
March 25, 2015
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Andre #206 - if I may join the game. Of course it all depends what you mean by a Creator. But let's assume something on the lines of the Christian God - then none of those are evidence as they can be explained equally well without invoking a divine intelligence. What would count as evidence would be repeatable perception of God. If this happened then he/she/it becomes a plausible explanation for some of these phenomena.Mark Frank
March 25, 2015
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KF And so the whole purpose of this anthology of mystical and patriotic verse is to justify your rather unheroic refusal to accept a kind invitation to discuss things outside your cozy echo chamber? Clutch your pearls lest they be trampled by pigs. Another relevant ballad: Bravely bold Sir Robin Rode forth from Camelot. He was not afraid to die, Oh brave Sir Robin. He was not at all afraid To be killed in nasty ways. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin. ...Piotr
March 25, 2015
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PPS: While I am at it, the song of innocence that matches Tyger, tyger . . .
The Lamb By William Blake Little Lamb who made thee Dost thou know who made thee Gave thee life & bid thee feed. By the stream & o'er the mead; Gave thee clothing of delight, Softest clothing wooly bright; Gave thee such a tender voice, Making all the vales rejoice! Little Lamb who made thee Dost thou know who made thee Little Lamb I'll tell thee, Little Lamb I'll tell thee! He is called by thy name, For he calls himself a Lamb: He is meek & he is mild, He became a little child: I a child & thou a lamb, We are called by his name. Little Lamb God bless thee. Little Lamb God bless thee. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PI2RAZzoc4
kairosfocus
March 25, 2015
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PPS: Another relevant Anthem:
Eternal Father bless our land Guard us with Thy mighty hand Keep us free from evil powers Be our light through countless hours To our leaders, Great Defender, Grant true wisdom from above Justice, truth be ours forever Jamaica, land we love Jamaica, Jamaica, Jamaica, land we love. Teach us true respect for all Stir response to duty's call Strengthen us the weak to cherish Give us vision lest we perish Knowledge send us, Heavenly Father, Grant true wisdom from above Justice, truth be ours forever Jamaica, land we love Jamaica, Jamaica, Jamaica, land we love. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIhvOBQB_M
(Hint: ask yourselves why the J'can Flag simply changes the colours on another one of relevance . . . )kairosfocus
March 25, 2015
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AS et al: I have long since suggested that we start with the foundations of worldviews and then overnight, that we focus on a pivotal issue, root of being in a necessary being and of what character. Cf here for an outline i/l/o modes of being and ontology: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-reasonableness-and-importance-of-the-inherently-good-creator-god-a-necessary-and-maximally-great-being/ I must assume that you have not simply ignored a linked discussion, in haste to drum out talking points in disregard of there being another side to the story. If you all are unable to recognise this as addressing a body of evidence on the general approaches of inference to best explanation, comparative difficulties and particularly grand sense-making, in light of evidence accessible to all who would inquire, then it shows logical, epistemological and broader philosophical impoverishment. Which, is unsurprising. Let me do a basic outline of key points: 1: A world, patently exists. 2: Nothing, denotes just that, non-being. 3: A genuine nothing, can have no causal capacity. 4: If ever there were an utter nothing, that is exactly what would forever obtain. 5: But, per 1, we and a world exist, so there was always something. 6: This raises the issue of modes of being, first possible vs impossible. 7: A possible being would exist if a relevant state of affairs were realised, e.g. heat + fuel + oxidiser + chain rxn --> fire (a causal process, showing fire to depend on external enabling factors) 8: An impossible being such as a square circle has contradictory core characteristics an cannot be in any possible world. (Worlds being patently possible as one is actual.) 9: Of possible beings, we see contingent ones, e.g. fires. This also highlights that if something begins, there are circumstances under which it may not be, and so, it is contingent and is caused as the fire illustrates. 10: Our observed cosmos had a beginning and is caused. This implies a deeper root of being, as necessarily, something always was. 11: Another possible mode of being is a necessary being. To see such, consider a candidate being that has no dependence on external, on/off enabling factors. 12: Such (if actual) has no beginning and cannot end, it is either impossible or actual and would exist in any possible world. For instance, a square circle is impossible, but there is no possible world in which twoness does not exist. 13: To see such, begin with the set that collects nothing and proceed: { } --> 0 {0} --> 1 {0, 1} --> 2 Etc. 14: We thus see on analysis of being, that we have possible vs impossible and of possible beings, contingent vs necessary. 15: Also, that of serious candidate necessary beings, they will either be impossible or actual in any possible world. That's the only way they can be, they have to be in the substructure in some way so that once a world can exist they are there necessarily. 16: Something like a flying spaghetti monster or the like, is contingent [here, not least as composed of parts and materials], and is not a serious candidate. (Cf also the discussions in the linked thread for other parodies and why they fail.) 17: By contrast, God is a serious candidate necessary being, The Eternal Root of being. Where, a necessary being root of reality is the best class of candidates to always have been. 18: The choice, as discussed in the already linked, is between God as impossible or as actual. Where, there is no good reason to see God as impossible, or not a serious candidate to be a necessary being, or to be contingent, etc. 19: So, to deny God is to imply and to need to shoulder the burden of showing God impossible. 20: Moreover, we find ourselves under moral government, to be under OUGHT. 21: This, post the valid part of Hume's guillotine argument (on pain of the absurdity of ultimate amorality and might/manipulation makes 'right') implies that there is a world foundational IS that properly bears the weight of OUGHT. 22: Across many centuries of debates, there is only one serious candidate: the inherently good, eternal creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of loyalty, respect, service through doing the good and even worship. 23: Where in this course of argument, no recourse has been had to specifically religious experiences or testimony of same, or to religious traditions; we here have what has been called the God of the philosophers, with more than adequate reason to accept his reality such that it is not delusional or immature to be a theist or to adhere to ethical theism. 24: Where, ironically, we here see exposed, precisely the emotional appeal and hostility of too many who reject and dismiss the reality of God (and of our being under moral government) without adequate reason. So, it would seem the shoe is rather on the other foot. KF PS: For those who do not understand the meaning of the motto of the House of Gordon and the saying that one should not get into a mud wrestling match with a pig especially in a fever swamp, I bring you a stanza of a certain song drawn from the battle that secured Scotland's freedom these many centuries past:
O Flouer o Scotland, Whan will we see, Yer like again, That focht and dee'd for, Yer wee bit Hill an Glenn, An stuid agin him, Prood Edward's Airmie, An sent him hamewart, Tae think again. video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMJS8s89hgU
Such, would be well advised to do much as proud Edward did at length. (And yes, it is right there in that highlighted line. Where rule 1 of standing is do not fight on ground of a ruthless enemy's choosing.)kairosfocus
March 25, 2015
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To: Tabasco, WD400, not_querius, Aurelio Smith We can settle this by asking you a direct question, I ask only thoughtful responses, don't deflect and please don't try and side the issue simple yes or no is good enough are the following below evidence for a Creator? 1.) Information and Language 2.) Beginning of the universe 3.) Cause and Effect 4.) Design and Purpose 5.) Natural Laws 6.) Logic & Reason 7.) Human Conscience 8.) Fine Tuning 9.) Human yearning for Justice (good and evil) 10.) The uniqueness of planet earth in the cosmos There are of course many more, but these will do for now, so again do these 10 points not count as evidence for a Creator?Andre
March 24, 2015
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LOL. During my brief discussion with Tabasco earlier in this thread I had thought to myself, "I thought only keiths could so determinedly insist on making a silly argument by consistently misrepresenting the argument he's responding to." I figured dealing with one keiths is enough so I ignored him. Now, as it turns out, it was keiths. At least he's consistent.HeKS
March 24, 2015
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As a follow-on from my comment above, does anybody find it hypocritical that KF would defend someone who has made threats of physical violence against others (the only person banned from TSZ) yet decry unsupported claims of threats against himself?not_querius
March 24, 2015
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I see that KF insist on refusing to provide evidence to support his claims of criminal activity. If someone made threats against my wife and children, I would certainly retain the evidence. If anyone made threats (Mafiosa style) against any of my family, I certainly would be providing that evidence to anyone who asked. That is completely unacceptable (and criminal) behaviour. When did you report it to the police? What is the case number? Who is the investigating officer? Or, is it possible, that you may be exaggerating this claim? Feel free to correct me. All it will take is evidence. Until then, I can only conclude that you are blowing smoke. If you can provide anything that I have requested, I will apologize to you publicly here at UD, using my real name, address and phone number. Are you willing to do the same if you can't provide any of this? Yours truly Not_querius.not_querius
March 24, 2015
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Tabasco, I will be frank [as my lawyer advised me just yesterday], just once, and will ignore you afterwards: never get into a mud wrestling match with a pig -- especially in a fever swamp; and try Matt 7:6 for the biblical version, from Serm Mt: "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you." I am interested in real substance such as the ontological issues you are busily diverting attention from by trying the red-herring, strawman, ad hominem trick in hopes of pretending to martyrdom if your trollish conduct leads to loss of commenting privilige -- and for cause it is a privilege conditioned on good conduct -- at UD. Game over, I have a serious budget issue to deal with with a multidimensional strategic chess game tied to it RW, goodbye. Let's see if AS at least will take up a serious matter. He asked about evidence and argument, here's one on the table. And it patently is not about emotional crutches. KF PS: On substance re CSI, I have put on the table a substantial citation and articulation of what WmAD meant when he defined and contextualised CSI, generalising from what on Orgel & Wicken can be summarised as FSCO/I. Let's see if sufficient numbers of objectors have enough sense of duty to balance, accuracy and fairness to change their tune from the circular argument strawman caricature. And, the predictable answer -- no -- shows yet another pattern of unresponsiveness to evidence by too many objectors to design theory.kairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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"I have a daughter who tries to convince me of the benefits of yoga and meditation. I’m sure it benefits her and many others. I seem to have a blind spot." Yes. It is in the centre of each of your perfectly "designed" eyes. Sorry. Could pass up the low hanging fruit.not_querius
March 24, 2015
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KF's real reason for avoiding TSZ is obvious to everyone. Bydand!tabasco
March 24, 2015
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StephenB, You're not making sense. You wrote:
I can provide quotes all day long. Here is another:
Is the current color of Kim Kardashian’s hair evidence that there are infinitely many prime numbers?
That isn't a claim, it's a question -- though there is an argument behind it that I explain throughout the thread. But how is that argument refuted by Barry's example?
Tabasco, read Dr JDD’s comment. Now apply your own definition of evidence. The universe had a beginning. One logical possibility to explain that fact is that God created the universe. Only that which exists has the capacity to create. Therefore the fact that the universe began to exist is evidence that God exists.
Barry isn't addressing the argument. He's trying to change the subject.tabasco
March 24, 2015
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"NQ, you have proved my point, exemplifying the problem. Your attempt to divert the thread will not be further entertained. KF" Really? All I did was ask for evidence to support your claims about victimization. Isn't this threat about the concept about what evidence is?not_querius
March 24, 2015
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NQ, you have proved my point, exemplifying the problem. Your attempt to divert the thread will not be further entertained. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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KF@184:"NQ: Have you had your name “outed,” and your uninvolved wife and children [with hinted at mafioso style threats], with attempts to publish street address and more? Not to mention general nastiness, etc? Or, had someone make false accusations to your boss to try to get you in job trouble? If you have not, then go take a long walk to a reflection pool and think again about what you are enabling. Shame on you. KF" KF, I have heard you make these claims yet you have never provided any concrete examples when requested. I don't know anybody who would condone the behaviour you describe but you expect us to simply take your word for it. Given that this is an OP about evidence, maybe you should provide some. Feel free to remove your name or the names of your family from the incriminating evidence. By the way, it took all of 30 seconds and Google to discover your true name. It doesn't help that when I click on your name in one of your comments, it links me to sites with your real name. With regard to the comment about trying to get someone in trouble with their boss, I assume that the victim you are referring to is the only one to be banned from TSZ. Whenever you bring this issue up, you conveniently neglect to mention that the complaint to the boss was that this person was using a work computer to make threats. And we both know that threatening physical violence is something that this person has done on numerous occasions.not_querius
March 24, 2015
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Ponder, and tremble: William Blake. 1757–1827 The Tyger http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/172943 Tyger Tyger, burning bright, In the forests of the night; What immortal hand or eye, Could frame thy fearful symmetry? In what distant deeps or skies. Burnt the fire of thine eyes? On what wings dare he aspire? What the hand, dare seize the fire? And what shoulder, & what art, Could twist the sinews of thy heart? And when thy heart began to beat, What dread hand? & what dread feet? What the hammer? what the chain, In what furnace was thy brain? What the anvil? what dread grasp, Dare its deadly terrors clasp! When the stars threw down their spears And water'd heaven with their tears: Did he smile his work to see? Did he who made the Lamb make thee? Tyger Tyger burning bright, In the forests of the night: What immortal hand or eye, Dare frame thy fearful symmetry? KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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F/N: I find the modal ontological context a rich vein for understanding how to think about God and our world. It turns out that given our evident life under moral government, the context leads to a vision of the eternal, ininite-personal inherently good creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being, ground of reality, well worthy of worship. Before you get anywhere near a work on theology much less a religious tradition. This context puts some meat and colour on the skeleton of the God of the philosophers. And, it clearly indicates that ethical theism is on to something really powerful. Oh, how a priori evolutionary materialist scientism and its fellow travellers have robbed us of insight even as they have puffed us up with a sneering dismissal of those who see what we have blinded ourselves to. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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Heks, yup. And if you think I would believe in God out of needing an emotional crutch, that does not pass the giggle test. BTW, the day I nigh broke my ankle, I learned the value of a crutch when it is really needed. KF PS: Cf my recent discussion on matters ontological at UD here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-reasonableness-and-importance-of-the-inherently-good-creator-god-a-necessary-and-maximally-great-being/ . . . this, I find pivotal on the issue of necessary being and God as serious candidate such that he is either impossible or actual; and there simply is no good reason to either doubt that God is a serious candidate NB or to think his existence is impossible like how a square circle is impossible. If you doubt that necessary beings exist, try coming up with a world where two-ness does not exist.kairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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AS: I have a budget headache to deal with (metaphorical, with foreshadowings of the literal one . . . ), but I snatch a moment. Here on is your problem:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view: >> . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions. [[Emphases added. Also cf. Reppert's summary of Barefoot's argument here.]>> i: The famous geneticist and evolutionary biologist (as well as Socialist) J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: >> "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] >> . . . DI Fellow, Nancey Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth: >> A major way to test a philosophy or worldview is to ask: Is it logically consistent? Internal contradictions are fatal to any worldview because contradictory statements are necessarily false. "This circle is square" is contradictory, so it has to be false. An especially damaging form of contradiction is self-referential absurdity -- which means a theory sets up a definition of truth that it itself fails to meet. Therefore it refutes itself . . . . An example of self-referential absurdity is a theory called evolutionary epistemology, a naturalistic approach that applies evolution to the process of knowing. The theory proposes that the human mind is a product of natural selection. The implication is that the ideas in our minds were selected for their survival value, not for their truth-value. But what if we apply that theory to itself? Then it, too, was selected for survival, not truth -- which discredits its own claim to truth. Evolutionary epistemology commits suicide. Astonishingly, many prominent thinkers have embraced the theory without detecting the logical contradiction. Philosopher John Gray writes, "If Darwin's theory of natural selection is true,... the human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth." What is the contradiction in that statement? Gray has essentially said, if Darwin's theory is true, then it "serves evolutionary success, not truth." In other words, if Darwin's theory is true, then it is not true. Self-referential absurdity is akin to the well-known liar's paradox: "This statement is a lie." If the statement is true, then (as it says) it is not true, but a lie. Another example comes from Francis Crick. In The Astonishing Hypothesis, he writes, "Our highly developed brains, after all, were not evolved under the pressure of discovering scientific truths but only to enable us to be clever enough to survive." But that means Crick's own theory is not a "scientific truth." Applied to itself, the theory commits suicide. Of course, the sheer pressure to survive is likely to produce some correct ideas. A zebra that thinks lions are friendly will not live long. But false ideas may be useful for survival. Evolutionists admit as much: Eric Baum says, "Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth." Steven Pinker writes, "Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not." The upshot is that survival is no guarantee of truth. If survival is the only standard, we can never know which ideas are true and which are adaptive but false. To make the dilemma even more puzzling, evolutionists tell us that natural selection has produced all sorts of false concepts in the human mind. Many evolutionary materialists maintain that free will is an illusion, consciousness is an illusion, even our sense of self is an illusion -- and that all these false ideas were selected for their survival value. So how can we know whether the theory of evolution itself is one of those false ideas? The theory undercuts itself. A few thinkers, to their credit, recognize the problem. Literary critic Leon Wieseltier writes, "If reason is a product of natural selection, then how much confidence can we have in a rational argument for natural selection? ... Evolutionary biology cannot invoke the power of reason even as it destroys it." On a similar note, philosopher Thomas Nagel asks, "Is the [evolutionary] hypothesis really compatible with the continued confidence in reason as a source of knowledge?" His answer is no: "I have to be able to believe ... that I follow the rules of logic because they are correct -- not merely because I am biologically programmed to do so." Hence, "insofar as the evolutionary hypothesis itself depends on reason, it would be self-undermining.">> . . . also tellingly highlighting Darwin's selective skepticism: >> People are sometimes under the impression that Darwin himself recognized the problem. They typically cite Darwin's famous "horrid doubt" passage where he questions whether the human mind can be trustworthy if it is a product of evolution: "With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy." But, of course, Darwin's theory itself was a "conviction of man's mind." So why should it be "at all trustworthy"? Surprisingly, however, Darwin never confronted this internal contradiction in this theory. Why not? Because he expressed his "horrid doubt" selectively -- only when considering the case for a Creator. From time to time, Darwin admitted that he still found the idea of God persuasive. He once confessed his "inward conviction ... that the Universe is not the result of chance." It was in the next sentence that he expressed his "horrid doubt." So the "conviction" he mistrusted was his lingering conviction that the universe is not the result of chance. In another passage Darwin admitted, "I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man." Again, however, he immediately veered off into skepticism: "But then arises the doubt -- can the mind of man, which has, as I fully believe, been developed from a mind as low as that possessed by the lowest animal, be trusted when it draws such grand conclusions?" That is, can it be trusted when it draws "grand conclusions" about a First Cause? Perhaps the concept of God is merely an instinct programmed into us by natural selection, Darwin added, like a monkey's "instinctive fear and hatred of a snake." In short, it was on occasions when Darwin's mind led him to a theistic conclusion that he dismissed the mind as untrustworthy. He failed to recognize that, to be logically consistent, he needed to apply the same skepticism to his own theory . . . . Applied consistently, Darwinism undercuts not only itself but also the entire scientific enterprise. Kenan Malik, a writer trained in neurobiology, writes, "If our cognitive capacities were simply evolved dispositions, there would be no way of knowing which of these capacities lead to true beliefs and which to false ones." Thus "to view humans as little more than sophisticated animals ...undermines confidence in the scientific method." Just so. Science itself is at stake. John Lennox, professor of mathematics at the University of Oxford, writes that according to atheism, "the mind that does science ... is the end product of a mindless unguided process. Now, if you knew your computer was the product of a mindless unguided process, you wouldn't trust it. So, to me atheism undermines the rationality I need to do science." Of course, the atheist pursuing his research has no choice but to rely on rationality, just as everyone else does. The point is that he has no philosophical basis for doing so. Only those who affirm a rational Creator have a basis for trusting human rationality. The reason so few atheists and materialists seem to recognize the problem is that, like Darwin, they apply their skepticism selectively . . . >> j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. m: Moreover, as Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin reminds us all in his infamous January 29, 1997 New York Review of Books article, "Billions and billions of demons," it is now notorious that: >> . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel [[materialistic scientists] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[And if you have been led to imagine that the immediately following words justify the above, kindly cf. the more complete clip and notes here.]>> n: Such a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind and of concepts and reasoned out conclusions relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)
Sauce for the goose works for the gander too. Nimitz the treecat is bleeking with laughter. KFkairosfocus
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@AS #164
Frankly Biped, I think religions have an emotional appeal that some people are more susceptible to than others. For those that succumb to that emotional need, evidence is superfluous. Those that lack that need aren’t swayed by testimony. Whether they might be impressed by evidence other than testimony is yet to be tested.
No, it is not yet to be tested. Do you seriously think that all people who sincerely hold religious beliefs do so because it fills an emotional need and makes them feel good, and so they've chosen to accept the beliefs for that reason, in the absence of any evidence, or merely on the basis of emotional conversion stories and personal testimony? If so, you're mistaken. I'm not an emotional person. My friends have sometimes joked about me being "dead inside" as a way to reference the fact that I'm not swayed by emotional arguments, I don't get overly worked up about things, I very rarely take things personally (even when they are meant personally), and I pretty consistently look at things objectively, even when it's not necessarily to my benefit to do so. But I'm also a theist. My theism doesn't derive from any kind of emotional need, and I don't particularly draw any emotional comfort from it. It doesn't stem from desiring to be part of a community, because I also don't much like being around large groups of people, especially when I know those people as acquaintances, since that tends to lead to a lot of chit-chat, which I hate like few other things on earth. I believe in God because I think God's existence is the most plausible explanation of the available evidence from a variety of arenas. That is, I consider the existence of God to have both significant explanatory power and scope. I find the philosophical arguments for his existence, which make use of scientific evidence in support of their premises, to be highly compelling. However, even if I didn't ultimately find the evidence and arguments sufficiently compelling to bring about my belief, I would find it utterly foolish to claim that no such evidence existed, or to insist that it didn't actually constitute evidence simply because it didn't compel my belief. It would be equally foolish to insist that it couldn't be counted as evidence simply because I could come up with an array of other logically possible explanations to try to account for the various lines of evidence that are claimed to point to God's existence, which is exactly what many people in the theism vs atheism debate try to do.HeKS
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