Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Modest Proposal for Academic Freedom Bills

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One endless discussion that always happens with the proposal of academic freedom bills in state legislatures is that the Darwin camp always says that they are about introducing religion into science classrooms. Even if the bill says, “this does not permit anyone to introduce religion into the classrooms,” the pro-Darwin crowd somehow misses this clause, or thinks that judges interpret bills based on the “secret agenda” of those proposing them, rather than the actual language of the bill.

I think a better way of settling this, is to formally define what constitutes legitimate scientific discussion in a science class. I think that there is, at least for biology, a perfectly reasonable reposity of standard information – Pubmed.

Pubmed is run by the NIH, and its purpose is to help the dissemination of information for medicine. Rather than argue tirelessly about what constitutes the introduction of religion into the classroom, why not just punt the definition of science to the NIH, and simply say something like “any paper indexed by Pubmed within the last 20 years should be considered a valid topic of discussion in the sciences.” That way, if someone thinks that these papers are about religion, then someone needs to explain what the NIH is doing indexing papers on religion!

I think this would give the academic freedom movement a more objective means of determining scientific discourse, and would mean that our detractors would have to spell out why they think that the NIH is incapable of distinguishing science from non-science, and why they think that the NIH is indexing papers on religious topics.

I, frankly, would enjoy listening to that conversation.

Comments
rna, I'm sorry if you take it personally, but do you or do you not get paid for money for work related to the belief that the chemical evolutionary origin of life is possible? As well, try to look at what you have presented un-biasedly, just how much of a violation of the second law did you have to "tolerate" in order to have the DNA molecule in the first place so as to have the "limited reaction" to a thermodynamic equilibrium state with it? As well rna, as pointed out previously, there is a molecular machine that lays down the specific sequences in question: Telomere Replication http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJNoTmWsE0s Please tell me why this machine even exists if your position is correct. So apparently rna, from the existance of the machine, there is a very desirable reason for having these particular sequences in very specific places in the DNA molecule that they are at, so as to help achieve the stunning levels of information packing we witness in the DNA molecule, which is trillions of level higher that what we have been able to accomplish with our most advanced computer chips: rna, You stated you felt insulted that I would question if you got money for holding your unreasonable position, yet when looking at the evidence once again, I feel intellectually insulted that you hold your position in the first place, surely you can't be this stubborn as to deny the obvious.bornagain77
March 16, 2010
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#89 bornagain "You must get paid money for holding your unreasonable position." So now we are at ad hominems. Very nice. It might well be that I hold unreasonable positions but if so I haven't talked about any position I personally hold in this thread. I talked about things that have been measured and experimentally characterized over and over. e. g. that g-quadruplexes form spontaneously due to the inherent chemistry of the guanine nucleotide in solution is an observation not a position I happen to hold. That the formation of this complex structure is favored by the second law is also an experimental finding since the entropy change connected with g-quadruplex formation has been measured. and so on ...rna
March 16, 2010
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High Frequency of Cryptic Deleterious Mutations in Caenorhabditis elegans ( Esther K. Davies, Andrew D. Peters, Peter D. Keightley) "In fitness assays, only about 4 percent of the deleterious mutations fixed in each line were detectable. The remaining 96 percent, though cryptic, are significant for mutation load...the presence of a large class of mildly deleterious mutations can never be ruled out." http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/5434/1748 Contamination of the genome by very slightly deleterious mutations: why have we not died 100 times over? Kondrashov A.S. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/jt/1995/00000175/00000004/art00167 The Frailty of the Darwinian Hypothesis "The net effect of genetic drift in such (vertebrate) populations is “to encourage the fixation of mildly deleterious mutations and discourage the promotion of beneficial mutations,” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/the_frailty_of_the_darwinian_h.html#more High genomic deleterious mutation rates in hominids Excerpt: Furthermore, the level of selective constraint in hominid protein-coding sequences is atypically (unusually) low. A large number of slightly deleterious mutations may therefore have become fixed in hominid lineages. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v397/n6717/abs/397344a0.htmlbornagain77
March 14, 2010
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scordova, Sorry for the delay in replying. Please stick to the subject. Genetic Entropy, mutation, radiation elevated rates of mutation That isn’t the subject of this thread. No, but somehow "cobalt bomb lab" experiments aren't either. By the way Nak, recombination won’t prevail if the mutation rates are sufficently high relative to the excess reproduction rate. I gave reasons to infer that we get at least 100 new mutations per individual. Nachman put the limit at about 3. We’re way beyond 3! You gave? This is a back of the envelope calculation you did or are you citing research? Nachman's own number for total mutations was about 175, and for deleterious mutations about 3. If you think you have evidence that the whole neutral theory of mutation is wrong, bring it on.Nakashima
March 14, 2010
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My point was that the reason for the occurence of multiple guanines in a row in the sequence has to do with the specific chemical properties of guanines and their resulting ability to form stabilizing quadruplexes. The sequences are not haphazard for this reason.
There is something potentially unwholesome in this line of reasoning, namely the idea: "Something is not haphazard because it would fail to be functional." But there is no a priori reason that it needs to be functional in the first place. Functionality is a privilege not an inevitable guarantee by nature! The fact that something is exists to make something else functional in the natural world does not mean mindless forces will necessarily assemble the functionality. If we used such reasoning to say fuel injectors make fuel injected cars functional, therefore mindless forces made cars, it would be obvious a non-sequitur has been put forward. The same issue applies here regarding the sequencing of DNA to allow quadruplex topographies!scordova
March 14, 2010
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rna, If you are interested in, in what I consider, a very good, well written, book clearly highlighting the necessity for top down implementation of such highly ordered information as we find in life. I recommend: A Meaningful World by Benjamin Wiker & Jonathan Witt http://www.ameaningfulworld.com/ you may taste of their style, and read chapter 1 here: http://www.ameaningfulworld.com/img/chapter1-ameaningfulworld.pdf I especially liked how they took Dawkin's famous "Methinks it is like a weasel" phrase and point out that the phrase has no meaning until the entirety of the book is taken into context. Yet when the entirety of the context is taken into account, it is very humerous to learn that the phrase in reality highlights the wishy washy thinking of a spineless character in the play who has not enough dignity within himself to stand up for the truth: Much like what we see in quite a few people here on UD: Hamlet: Do you see that cloud, that's almost in shape like a camel? Polonius: By the mass, and 't is like a camel, indeed. Hamlet: Methinks, it is like a weasel. Polonius: It is backed like a weasel. Hamlet: Or, like a whale? Polonius: Very like a whale. Here is a synopsis of the book: In this groundbreaking book, Wiker and Witt show that nature offers all of the challenges and surprises, all of the mystery and elegance, we associate with design and, further, with artistic genius. They begin in Shakespeare and range through the fine-tuning of the laws of physics, the Periodic Table of Elements, the artistry of ordinary substances like carbon and water, the intricacy of biological organisms, and the drama of scientific exploration itself. In contrast to contemporary claims that the world is ultimately meaningless, Wiker and Witt reveal a cosmos charged with both meaning and purpose.bornagain77
March 13, 2010
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rna, and how did you arrive at that DNA molecule? Did you fabricate the DNA molecule by purely chemical means? Is it even possible to have a DNA molecule without extensive labwork? As well, rna, did you look at that video I loaded for you? Can't you see the absolute necessity for information to be implemented from a top down approach instead of from the bottom up approach you are trying to use? I would think that fact would be as clear as day. Surely you can't be this blind. There must be some motive for you to be so stubborn as to acknowledging what is blatantly obvious. You must get paid money for holding your unreasonable position. Am I wrong?bornagain77
March 13, 2010
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Where do i create artificially an 'thermodynamically uphill' environment? Solvation entropy effects are very important in biology and chemistry as you well know since you argue so frequently with the second law.rna
March 13, 2010
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rna, please tell me if the DNA molecule occurred "spontaneously"?. Elsewise you are artificial creating a "thermodynamically uphill" environment. As you well know this is cheating in origin of life research. As far as your remark to sal, my first reaction was to think you are completely agreeing that it is an engineered sequence, and that you are joining the ID camp. If not, which I am fairly sure is as it is, please explain the telomere machinery that lays down the sequences from your desired chemistry first standpoint. Shoot I would even be happy if you would do that for the far less complicated machinery of ATP synthase: Evolution Vs ATP Synthase - Molecular Machine - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4012706/evolution_vs_atp_synthase_molecular_machine/bornagain77
March 13, 2010
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#82 scordova The telomeres are of course synthesized by the telomerase enzyme. My point was that the reason for the occurence of multiple guanines in a row in the sequence has to do with the specific chemical properties of guanines and their resulting ability to form stabilizing quadruplexes. The sequences are not haphazard for this reason.rna
March 13, 2010
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#81 bornagain "Really? and just how spontaneous was it?" As spontaneous as in mix with sodium ions and wait. And you don't even need a defined sequence for it but only isolated G nucleotide or guanine base (which actually can form spontaneously from simple precursor molecules). Thus, quadruplex formation is an inherent consequence of the chemical properties of guanine. These properties are the reason why telomere sequences are guanine rich and contain some guanines in a row. the other nucleotides differ between different organisms and further stabilize the quadruplexes by stacking interactions and hydrogen bonds. Quadruplex formation is also nicely in agreement with the second law of thermodynamics since it reduces the solvent accessible surface of the guanines which in turn releases a lot of water molecules which form the hydration shell of the guanines. thus, the conformational entropy of the system is increasing despite the formation of a well ordered structure.rna
March 13, 2010
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rna, here is a video I loaded for you, that gives an overview of the scenario, anyone in your position, must give an adequate explanation for: How DNA Compares To Human Language - Perry Marshall http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4298072/how_dna_compares_to_human_language_perry_marshall/ further note: The Coding Found In DNA surpasses man's ability to code - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050638/the_coding_found_in_dna_surpasses_mans_ability_to_code_stephen_meyer/ DNA: The Alphabet of Life - David Klinghoffer Excerpt: But all this is trivial compared to the largely unheralded insight gained from the Human Genome Project, completed in 2003. The insight is disturbing. It is that while DNA codes for the cell's building blocks, the information needed to build the rest of the creature is seemingly, in large measure, absent. ,,,The physically encoded information to form that mouse, as opposed to that fly, isn't there. Instead, "It is as if the 'idea' of the fly (or any other organism) must somehow permeate the genome that gives rise to it." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/dna_the_alphabet_of_life.html i.e. rna please tell me how the ink and paper, of physics and chemistry, writes book after book of breath-taking elegance.bornagain77
March 13, 2010
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Thanks sal, This video adds to the "engineering" you pointed out: Telomere Replication http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJNoTmWsE0sbornagain77
March 13, 2010
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the quadruplexes form spontaneously in solution solely due to chemical interactions in isolated dna molecules (and even if you mix isolated guanine nucleotides with sodium ions) – no cellular machinery required
Hang on, the sequence that create quadraplex DNA are generated in a specified sequence in the cell, the sequence pattern is not haphazard. The issue of whether it knots into quadraplex topographiies spontaneously in an isolated solution is a separate issue. But I hope this clarifies the sense that I was using for the formation of quadruplex DNA. I was referring to the origination of the sequence for the quadruplexes not the topography. I use it in the way Sternberg describes:
the DNA sequences that are found at these genomic tips are tandem repetitions of TTAGGG. That’s right…TTAGGGTTAGGGTTAGGG…over and over and over again. A notable exception to this rule is the fruit fly, an organism that in this regard has provided the junk DNA notion no succor, since its telomeres have complex combinations of three different retrotransposons instead of those six-basepair units. What is important to note, though, is that telomeric sequences are essential to the cell, and it seems that hardly a week does not pass without some new role being discovered for these elements. How, precisely, are miles and miles of TTAGGG of significance? From the standpoint of chromosome architecture, the repetitive elements en masse have the propensity to form complicated topologies such as quadruplex DNA. These sequences or, rather, topographies are also bound by a host of chromatin proteins and particular RNAs to generate a unique “suborganelle” — for the lack of better term — at each end. As a matter of fact, the chromatin organization of telomeres can silence genes and has been linked to epigenetic modes of inheritance in yeast and fruit flies. ... “How, then, do you account for such ITSs in the first place…everyone knows they are out-of-place junk.” I tell him that I do have an answer but that first I must be excused for a moment. While making my way back to the bar, I mentally rehearse so as to be as succinct as possible. My rejoinders are, simply, that ITSs reflect sites where TTAGGG repeats have been added to chromosomes by telomerases, that these repeats are moreover engineered — literally synthesized by the telomerase machinery, that ITSs have a telomere-like chromatin organization and are associated with distinct sets of proteins, and that many have been linked to roles such a recombination hotspots.
scordova
March 13, 2010
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rna, "These quadruplexes can actually be observed to form spontaneously in solution etc." Really? and just how spontaneous was it? "chemical interactions in isolated dna molecules" And Did the DNA molecules form "spontaneously'? Methinks you take way too much for granted with the second law.bornagain77
March 13, 2010
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#78 bornagain until now I have only commented on results of measurements and actual experiments. These quadruplexes can actually be observed to form spontaneously in solution etc. ... What this has to do with any foundational beliefs I might or might not hold is not clear to me. And the chemical properties of nucleotides that lead to stacking interactions and quadruplex formation are in total agreement with quantum mechanics as applied to atoms and molecules.rna
March 13, 2010
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further note rna: The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)." http://www.pul.it/irafs/CD%20IRAFS%2702/texts/Penrose.pdf "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more." Gilbert Newton Lewis Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2904125/k.E94E/Why_Quantum_Theory_Does_Not_Support_Materialism.htm Testing Creation Using the Proton to Electron Mass Ratio Excerpt: The bottom line is that the electron to proton mass ratio unquestionably joins the growing list of fundamental constants in physics demonstrated to be constant over the history of the universe.,,, http://www.reasons.org/TestingCreationUsingtheProtontoElectronMassRatiobornagain77
March 13, 2010
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rna, I feel you need to really evaluate the foundational basis of your argument. Your foundational basis presupposes materialism to be true. Yet quantum mechanics, as well as the transcendent origin of the universe, has shown materialism to be completely false. Thus, as a overriding matter of principle, even if you could demonstrate the ability of matter and energy to generate the massive amounts of highly organized complex functional information that we find in life, which, in spectacular fashion, you can't, save for the very trivial uninteresting examples you cite, you would still just be left with Theistic Evolution. This is because matter and energy are ultimately resolvable/reducible to the "information waves" of quantum mechanics. That's right rna, reality at its foundational basis is transcendent information, and here you are trying to prove, for whatever motive, that matter and energy have the ability to produce information!! Do you see how ironic it is? Yet even though reality itself is reducible to "transcendent information", indeed even the most solid, indestructible, things in a atom are the unchanging, universal, transcendent, information, constants which, as far as we can tell, have not varied one iota from the creation of the universe, here you are operating from a presupposition that materialism is true; The Thermodynamic Argument Against Materialism and Evolution - Thomas Kindell http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4168488/the_thermodynamic_argument_against_materialism_and_evolution_thomas_kindell/ Yet Godbornagain77
March 13, 2010
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#76 scordova "The quadraplex DNA that reapeats is developed through specialized cellular machinery, not through inherent chemical biasing ..." the quadruplexes form spontaneously in solution solely due to chemical interactions in isolated dna molecules (and even if you mix isolated guanine nucleotides with sodium ions) - no cellular machinery requiredrna
March 13, 2010
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If these energy differences matter in determining or at least biasing the distribution of sequences occuring in nature is then a question one can discuss. However, for a meaningful discussion about this one would need first to know or to admit that these forces exist.
Such forces were hypothesized, acknowledged, and studied by people like Kenyon for amino-acids and others for DNA. The conclusion was that there is insufficient biasing to create much of the novelty in existence. If the biasing forces are strong, you'd get many long repeats not useful for coding proteins. The quadraplex DNA that reapeats is developed through specialized cellular machinery, not through inherent chemical biasing. The biasing make the quadraplex possible and stable, but it is not the ultimate reason for the repeats.scordova
March 13, 2010
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Nakashima-san insists: scordova, Please stick to the subject. Genetic Entropy, mutation, radiation elevated rates of mutation
That isn't the subject of this thread. But since this thread is several days old I'll address somehting you said: Genetic entropy has a far better chance of being true that Darwin's claim that we'll be much more perfect than we are now in the future.
You are constantly trying to drag the conversation away from the failure of Genetic Entropy to be demonstrated in an experiment which should have highlighted it clearly.
Not so fast. See: Mutational Meltdown in Laboratory Yeast Populations But that is just the start. However, what is in question for school curricula is not John Sanford work but rather the illogical and illegitimate exptrapolations of Darwinism from zero data, circular reasoning and abundant story-telling. Evolution of deeply integrated structures has never been demonstrated. At least the claim of genetic entropy has been demonstrated in the lab and in the wild (aka extinction). It never ceases to amaze me that Darwinist interpret the extinction of novelty as proof that complexity increases. This is like going to a computer store, smashing a few computers and then proclaiming, "see Darwinism creates integrated novelty". This isn't science, this is double-speak! Demanding lab evidence isn't exactly helpful to Darwinism, but rather an embarassment, just like the supposed acceleration of evolution attempted in Cobalt bomb labs: pipe dreams inspired by Darwinian story-telling. The real outcomes were more like nightmares. Natural selection acting on random mutation has yet to create deeply integrated structures in lab. So at least Sandford's theories have better real-time empirical backing than Darwinism. By the way Nak, recombination won't prevail if the mutation rates are sufficently high relative to the excess reproduction rate. I gave reasons to infer that we get at least 100 new mutations per individual. Nachman put the limit at about 3. We're way beyond 3!scordova
March 13, 2010
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rna, but all your examples beg the question as to if the information was first or the chemistry first in the sequence; i.e. was the information purposely sequenced in that way by God so as to achieve those advantageous chemical properties you cited (most likely explanation), or did the need for those chemical properties arise and then ever so luckily the properties of these sequences just so happened to fill the bill that had to be met. Should we just add this fortuitous "coincidence" to the encyclopedial long list we already have?bornagain77
March 12, 2010
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#69 upright biped Again, I simply pointed out that there are stacking forces between bases along the linear axis of a DNA. These stacking forces are different for different pairs of nucleotides following along the sequence due to the difference in their chemical nature. Thus, some sequences are energetically more favourable then others or (more prone to adopt functional structures). If these energy differences matter in determining or at least biasing the distribution of sequences occuring in nature is then a question one can discuss. However, for a meaningful discussion about this one would need first to know or to admit that these forces exist. My personal opinion is that in the large genomes we see in modern organisms these forces do not matter in general. basically all sequences can occur since e.g. genomic dna is stabilized by a huge number of accessory proteins but there are many other reasons. But there are at least two examples for the occurence of certain sequences where the differences in the chemical properties between different nucleotides alone 'determine' (some variation allowed) the sequence. One example are the ends of chromosomes - the telomeres - where G-containing sequences dominate since G is the only nucleotide due to its special chemical properties that can form so called quadruplexes which are thought to be involved in telomere stabilization. The second example are GC-rich sequences that can form Z-DNA - a special helical geometry which is involved in regulation of gene expression and recognized by certain proteins. Again this has to do only with the special chemical properties of GC-rich sequences.rna
March 12, 2010
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#69 upright biped Again, I simply pointed out that there are stacking forces between bases along the linear axis of a DNA. These stacking forces are different for different pairs of nucleotides following along the sequence due to the difference in their chemical nature. Thus, some sequences are energetically more favourable then others or (more prone to adopt functional structures). If these energy differences matter in determining or at least biasing the distribution of sequences occuring in nature is then a question one can discuss. However, for a meaningful discussion about this one would need first to know or to admit that these forces exist. My personal opinion is that in the large genomes we see in modern organisms these forces do not matter in general. basically all sequences can occur since e.g. genomic dna is stabilized by a huge number of accessory proteins but there are many other reasons. But there are at least two examples for the occurence of certain sequences where the differences in the chemical properties between different nucleotides alone 'determine' (some variation allowed) the sequence. One example are the ends of chromosomes - the telomeres - where G-containing sequences dominate since G is the only nucleotide due to its special chemical properties that can form so called quadruplexes which are thought to be involved in telomere stabilization. The second example are GC-rich sequences that can form Z-DNA - a special helical geometry which is involved in regulation of gene expression and recognized by certain proteins. Again this has to do only with the special chemical properties of GC-rich sequences. Furthermore, differences in stacking forces along nucleic acid sequences matters if you start thinking about functional RNAs and DNAs (that not only store information but also act as enzymes) in general or in terms of an RNA-world scenario where differences in chemical stability could bias a random sequence pool towards more stable sequences. (And I do not want to start a dsicussion about the validity of an RNA-world scenario because there is still such a huge amount to learn about the possibilites of RNA that it would be really premature to already dismiss this just yet.)rna
March 12, 2010
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#69 upright biped Again, I simply pointed out that there are stacking forces between bases along the linear axis of a DNA. These stacking forces are different for different pairs of nucleotides following along the sequence due to the difference in their chemical nature. Thus, some sequences are energetically more favourable then others or (more prone to adopt functional structures). If these energy differences matter in determining or at least biasing the distribution of sequences occuring in nature is then a question one can discuss. However, for a meaningful discussion about this one would need first to know or to admit that these forces exist. My personal opinion is that in the large genomes we see in modern organisms these forces do not matter in general. basically all sequences can occur since e.g. genomic dna is stabilized by a huge number of accessory proteins but there are many other reasons. But there are at least two examples where the occurence of certain sequences where the differences in the chemical properties between different nucleotides 'determine' (some variation allowed) the sequence. One example are the ends of chromosomes - the telomeres - where G-containing sequences dominate since G is the only nucleotide due to its special chemical properties that can form so called quadruplexes which are thought to be involved in telomere stabilization. The second example are GC-rich sequences that can form Z-DNA - a special helical geometry which is involved in regulation of gene expression and recognized by certain proteins. Again this has to do only with the special chemical properties of GC-rich sequences. Furthermore, differences in stacking forces along nucleic acid sequences matters if you start thinking about functional RNAs and DNAs (that not only store information but also act as enzymes) in general or in terms of an RNA-world scenario where differences in chemical stability could bias a random sequence pool towards more stable sequences. (And I do not want to start a dsicussion about the validity of an RNA-world scenario because there is still such a huge amount to learn about the possibilites of RNA that it would be really premature to already dismiss this just yet.)rna
March 12, 2010
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Hello rna, My reading of your comments was that you were simply ignoring that the fact that the discussion was specifically about the determining factors in sequencing (ie. "...causes the sequence of nucleotides to exist as they do"). That is the part of the comment (you were reacting to) which you simply ignored in #46 and and completely left out of the quote in #53. This would of course, give you the opportunity to say something like:
"If Dr. meyer doesn’t know about these basic facts or even choose to ignore them I am not sure if I can trust his further statements."
Regular visitors to UD find that there are many commentors who come here to willfully attack ID and it proponents over the weakest reading of their work. They will ignore context, split hairs, demand clarifications for the obvious, and generally flop about. It is therefore up to the proponents of design to correct them.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2010
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Nak,
Yes, I think it would be relatively easy for Dr Meyer to update his speaking materials to reflect the reality of DNA connection probabilities.
My reading of Dr Meyer's book is that he has nothing to update. I thought it was abundantly clear that there are no determining factors among the bonds.
More relevant are the non-uniformly distributed bindings of amino acids to RNA triplets. It seems that some part of the genetic code is driven by pure chemistry.
The aa-rna interaction tell us that the parts of the system actually work to their purpose. Returning to your earlier analogy, if the ink did not stick to the paper and was not visible for reading, then we wouldn't use it. But just because it does, doesn't explain why the u follows the q.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2010
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“All beneficial adaptations away from a parent species for a sub-species, which increase fitness to a particular environment, will always come at a loss of the optimal functional information that was originally created in the parent species genome.”
1)Could you point me to any studies that support this? 2)I don't see how you can use the term Genetic Entropy in a ID/Evo debate if that definition includes the assertion that Intelligent Design was responsible for the parent species genome.
...information that was originally created in the parent species genome.”
Toronto
March 12, 2010
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Nak, I don't know where you got your definition of Genetic Entropy from but it is way off base. The foundational rule of Genetic Entropy for biology, which can draw its foundation in science from the twin pillars of the Second Law of Thermodynamics and from the Law of Conservation of Information (Dembski, Marks), can be stated something like this: "All beneficial adaptations away from a parent species for a sub-species, which increase fitness to a particular environment, will always come at a loss of the optimal functional information that was originally created in the parent species genome." The primary tenet of Genetic Entropy holds that functional information will never increase over what was originally created in the parent species "optimal" genome: i.e. all subspeciation events will come at a loss of the optimal information from the parent species genome. "...but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have..." Maciej Marian Giertych - Population Geneticist - member of the European Parliament - EXPELLED It seems you have somehow distorted the second phase of Genetic Entropy, which Dr. Sanford elucidated in his book Genetic Entropy, in that the accumulation of slightly deleterious mutations will eventually lead to genetic meltdown. But as you well know there are highly intricate compensatory mechanisms, error correction mechanisms, and such, which permeate the genome, to guard against "random" mutations. Yet these mechanisms, as far as we can tell are experimentally, are incapable of generating novel functional information and can never reach the optimal information found in the genome of the original parent species. as far as falsifying Genetic Entropy, it goes somewhat like this: For a broad outline of the "Fitness test", required to be passed to show a violation of the principle of Genetic Entropy, please see the following video and articles: Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - "The Fitness Test" - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248/is_antibiotic_resistance_evidence_for_evolution_the_fitness_test/ Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore Thank Goodness the NCSE Is Wrong: Fitness Costs Are Important to Evolutionary Microbiology Excerpt: it (an antibiotic resistant bacterium) reproduces slower than it did before it was changed. This effect is widely recognized, and is called the fitness cost of antibiotic resistance. It is the existence of these costs and other examples of the limits of evolution that call into question the neo-Darwinian story of macroevolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/thank_goodness_the_ncse_is_wro.html This "fitness test" fairly conclusively demonstrates "optimal information" was originally encoded within a "parent" bacteria/bacterium by God, and has not been added to by any "teleological" methods in the beneficial adaptations of the sub-species of bacteria. Thus the inference to Genetic Entropy, i.e. that God has not specifically moved within nature in a teleological manner, to gradually increase the functional information of a genome, still holds as true for the principle of Genetic Entropy. It seems readily apparent that to conclusively demonstrate God has moved within nature, in a teleological manner, to provide the sub-species bacteria with additional functional information over the "optimal" genome of its parent species, the "fitness test" must be passed by the sub-species against the parent species. If the fitness test is shown to be passed then the new molecular function, which provides the more robust survivability for the sub-species, must be calculated to its additional Functional Information Bits (Fits) it gained in the beneficial adaptation, and then be found to be greater than 140 Fits. 140 Fits is what has now been generously set by Kirk Durston as the maximum limit of Functional Information which can reasonably be expected to be generated by the natural processes of the universe over the entire age of the universe (The actual limit is most likely to be around 40 Fits)(Of note: I have not seen any evidence to suggest that purely material processes can exceed the much more constrained "2 protein-protein binding site" limit, for functional information generation, found by Michael Behe in his book "The Edge Of Evolution"). This fitness test, and calculation, must be done to rigorously establish materialistic processes did not generate the functional information (Fits), and to rigorously establish teleological, within nature, processes were indeed involved in the increase of Functional Complexity of the beneficially adapted sub-species. The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP) - Abel - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Mere possibility is not an adequate basis for asserting scientific plausibility. A precisely defined universal bound is needed beyond which the assertion of plausibility, particularly in life-origin models, can be considered operationally falsified. But can something so seemingly relative and subjective as plausibility ever be quantified? Amazingly, the answer is, "Yes.",,, c?u = Universe = 10^13 reactions/sec X 10^17 secs X 10^78 atoms = 10^108 c?g = Galaxy = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^66 atoms = 10^96 c?s = Solar System = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^55 atoms = 10^85 c?e = Earth = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^40 atoms = 10^70 http://www.tbiomed.com/content/6/1/27 Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236/mathematically_defining_functional_information_in_molecular_biology_kirk_durston/ Evolution vs. Genetic Entropy - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086/evolution_vs_genetic_entropy/ more references here: http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/bornagain77
March 12, 2010
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Mr BA^77, For you to claim Genetic Entropy is refuted would demand a fairly concise methodology! Do you care to know exactly what you must do? I would be fascinated to hear what you think such a concise methodology might be. In your own words. Without YouTube links. Here's what I came up with: 1 - A claim about ALL cases can be disproved with a single counter-example. 2 - Genetic Entropy is a claim about ALL populations - that they must inevitable go extinct under the burden of accumulating mutations. 3 - Mutations can be expected to accumulate faster in small populations in a high radiation environment. 4 - An actual experiment with a small population under high radiation did NOT see the population go extinct or accumulate mutations (except ones that helped the flies cope with high radiation). 5 - This single counter-example disproves Genetic Entropy. (See 1 and 2 above.)Nakashima
March 12, 2010
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